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  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    My point was that Momentum and Corbyn I'm afraid, are electoral poison for Labour and it would be better if they weren't in the party. I also accept that we can't just boot people out for no reason.

    How do you explain 2017 GE result?
    We offered a broadly soft-left manifesto and our leader then wasn't polling -60.

    In 2019 we went into nutty territory with an unpopular leader.

    Now we have a popular leader and will have a 2017-lite manifesto. Seems like a sensible step to me.
    He was very unpopular at the time of the late February 2017 Copeland by election lost to the Tories - and at the end of April Labour was trailing the Tories by circa 25% in several polls.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    kamski said:

    Charles said:

    Voting by mail is not done inalienable democratic right. The Dems are pushing it for partisan reasons (and the GOP are resisting it for the same reason)

    Limitations on the number of polling stations is far more serious from a democratic perspective. There is no reasonable argument that can be made as to why that might be acceptable.

    What a bizarre and frankly antidemocratic comment. So many people rely on postal voting. You nay as well say the same about polling stations.

    Voting by mail is necessary in some cases (illness, infirmity, etc)

    But it should be for people who are unable to make it to the polling station in person.

    Not available on demand.

    I don’t get your final point though as I explicitly criticised restrictions on numbers of polling stations
    So voting should be made more difficult for those who can’t easily take the day off work in your view ?

    The majority of US states allow voting by mail on demand, and a tenth of them have mail only voting.
    How many allow early voting, and how soon does that start?
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/how-to-vote-2020/

    Gives current information for every state.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    My point was that Momentum and Corbyn I'm afraid, are electoral poison for Labour and it would be better if they weren't in the party. I also accept that we can't just boot people out for no reason.

    How do you explain 2017 GE result?
    We offered a broadly soft-left manifesto and our leader then wasn't polling -60.

    In 2019 we went into nutty territory with an unpopular leader.

    Now we have a popular leader and will have a 2017-lite manifesto. Seems like a sensible step to me.
    I think the 2017 manifesto was better than the 2019 one.

    I personally don't see this popularity of SKS amongst likely Lab voters. Of course he is looked upon more favourably than Corbyn by those who won't vote Labour anyway I don't see him inspiring new votes.

    I obviously want Labour to win but only chance is an economic disaster IMO
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    My point was that Momentum and Corbyn I'm afraid, are electoral poison for Labour and it would be better if they weren't in the party. I also accept that we can't just boot people out for no reason.

    How do you explain 2017 GE result?
    We offered a broadly soft-left manifesto and our leader then wasn't polling -60.

    In 2019 we went into nutty territory with an unpopular leader.

    Now we have a popular leader and will have a 2017-lite manifesto. Seems like a sensible step to me.
    I think the 2017 manifesto was better than the 2019 one.

    I personally don't see this popularity of SKS amongst likely Lab voters. Of course he is looked upon more favourably than Corbyn by those who won't vote Labour anyway I don't see him inspiring new votes.

    I obviously want Labour to win but only chance is an economic disaster IMO
    Far too gloomy - even tonight's poll would imply a Hung Parliament.
  • rcs1000 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yokes said:

    We simply must expel Momentum, if we are to move forward

    Are you referring to this?

    https://twitter.com/Labour_Insider/status/1294712002322014211

    This is perhaps not as high risk a move as meets the eye. The two big UK political parties are broad churches, its just about the idealogues not being in charge so in that way its not so good if Labour can't encompass the hard left, even if it is effectively muzzled. On the risk of a breakaway party, I'm not sure in electoral terms how much damage it would really do to Labour IF Starmer can connect with the public on a personal level whilst steering a don't frighten the horses Social Democrat path. Those hard left Labour types prepared to die in a ditch vs getting the Conservatives out may be surprisingly small.
    An anonymous "Labour insider" who talks about CowardlyKeir? A likely story.
    This expulsion of Corbyn is not happening, Nick, is it? I have it down as wild rumour created by the heatwave.
    EHRC surely gives grounds if Corbyn is implicated
    How many Tory MPs were expelled for their support of Ian Smith's Rhodesia regime or for being openly sympathetic to Apartheid South Africa? Terry Dicks advocated hanging Nelson Mandela - did he suffer any penalty for airing such views?
    I'm not interested in what the Tory Party does, I am interested in what my party does.
    Corbyn did not support those advocating expulsion of Blair for his activities as a war criminal whilst in office!
    If Corbyn is implicated and he is not expelled, Labour will not be winning the next general election, no way.

    Do we want to win or not, I do.
    I seriously question your judgement - that really is a 'non sequitur'. Someone who has lurched from being a strong advocate of Corbyn to now being ultra critical is not likely to be blessed with a very balanced view on this issue.
    I'm critical because I'm pissed off with his remaining fan club that attacks people like me for supporting Keir Starmer. And the fact he won't sod off and be quiet, instead choosing to attack the leadership.

    My opinion on him has changed, I am not afraid to say that.

    If he isn't found guilty by the EHRC, then that's fine. I want him gone but I accept there are no grounds to do so. And the same for Momentum.
    Silly boy
    "When I am wrong, I change my mind."

    John Maynard Keynes
    Ah hem, he said

    "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"
    I hope the point of my post was clear, still.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,247
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yokes said:

    We simply must expel Momentum, if we are to move forward

    Are you referring to this?

    https://twitter.com/Labour_Insider/status/1294712002322014211

    This is perhaps not as high risk a move as meets the eye. The two big UK political parties are broad churches, its just about the idealogues not being in charge so in that way its not so good if Labour can't encompass the hard left, even if it is effectively muzzled. On the risk of a breakaway party, I'm not sure in electoral terms how much damage it would really do to Labour IF Starmer can connect with the public on a personal level whilst steering a don't frighten the horses Social Democrat path. Those hard left Labour types prepared to die in a ditch vs getting the Conservatives out may be surprisingly small.
    An anonymous "Labour insider" who talks about CowardlyKeir? A likely story.
    This expulsion of Corbyn is not happening, Nick, is it? I have it down as wild rumour created by the heatwave.
    EHRC surely gives grounds if Corbyn is implicated
    How many Tory MPs were expelled for their support of Ian Smith's Rhodesia regime or for being openly sympathetic to Apartheid South Africa? Terry Dicks advocated hanging Nelson Mandela - did he suffer any penalty for airing such views?
    I'm not interested in what the Tory Party does, I am interested in what my party does.
    Corbyn did not support those advocating expulsion of Blair for his activities as a war criminal whilst in office!
    If Corbyn is implicated and he is not expelled, Labour will not be winning the next general election, no way.

    Do we want to win or not, I do.
    I seriously question your judgement - that really is a 'non sequitur'. Someone who has lurched from being a strong advocate of Corbyn to now being ultra critical is not likely to be blessed with a very balanced view on this issue.
    I'm critical because I'm pissed off with his remaining fan club that attacks people like me for supporting Keir Starmer. And the fact he won't sod off and be quiet, instead choosing to attack the leadership.

    My opinion on him has changed, I am not afraid to say that.

    If he isn't found guilty by the EHRC, then that's fine. I want him gone but I accept there are no grounds to do so. And the same for Momentum.
    That would be on a par with Corbyn removing all Blairites from the party following his election in 2015 - or Thatcher getting rid of the 'Wets' post 1979. Far too destructive and divisive.
    No.

    A better analogy is Kinnock clearing out Militant.
  • justin124 said:

    My point was that Momentum and Corbyn I'm afraid, are electoral poison for Labour and it would be better if they weren't in the party. I also accept that we can't just boot people out for no reason.

    How do you explain 2017 GE result?
    We offered a broadly soft-left manifesto and our leader then wasn't polling -60.

    In 2019 we went into nutty territory with an unpopular leader.

    Now we have a popular leader and will have a 2017-lite manifesto. Seems like a sensible step to me.
    He was very unpopular at the time of the late February 2017 Copeland by election lost to the Tories - and at the end of April Labour was trailing the Tories by circa 25% in several polls.
    He was not -60 at this time.

    He also was far more unknown than in 2019, when he had multiple years of failure that I have come to understand since.

    We failed, he should have gone after 2017, that's the reality.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    rcs1000 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yokes said:

    We simply must expel Momentum, if we are to move forward

    Are you referring to this?

    https://twitter.com/Labour_Insider/status/1294712002322014211

    This is perhaps not as high risk a move as meets the eye. The two big UK political parties are broad churches, its just about the idealogues not being in charge so in that way its not so good if Labour can't encompass the hard left, even if it is effectively muzzled. On the risk of a breakaway party, I'm not sure in electoral terms how much damage it would really do to Labour IF Starmer can connect with the public on a personal level whilst steering a don't frighten the horses Social Democrat path. Those hard left Labour types prepared to die in a ditch vs getting the Conservatives out may be surprisingly small.
    An anonymous "Labour insider" who talks about CowardlyKeir? A likely story.
    This expulsion of Corbyn is not happening, Nick, is it? I have it down as wild rumour created by the heatwave.
    EHRC surely gives grounds if Corbyn is implicated
    How many Tory MPs were expelled for their support of Ian Smith's Rhodesia regime or for being openly sympathetic to Apartheid South Africa? Terry Dicks advocated hanging Nelson Mandela - did he suffer any penalty for airing such views?
    I'm not interested in what the Tory Party does, I am interested in what my party does.
    Corbyn did not support those advocating expulsion of Blair for his activities as a war criminal whilst in office!
    If Corbyn is implicated and he is not expelled, Labour will not be winning the next general election, no way.

    Do we want to win or not, I do.
    I seriously question your judgement - that really is a 'non sequitur'. Someone who has lurched from being a strong advocate of Corbyn to now being ultra critical is not likely to be blessed with a very balanced view on this issue.
    I'm critical because I'm pissed off with his remaining fan club that attacks people like me for supporting Keir Starmer. And the fact he won't sod off and be quiet, instead choosing to attack the leadership.

    My opinion on him has changed, I am not afraid to say that.

    If he isn't found guilty by the EHRC, then that's fine. I want him gone but I accept there are no grounds to do so. And the same for Momentum.
    Silly boy
    "When I am wrong, I change my mind."

    John Maynard Keynes
    Ah hem, he said

    "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"
    I hope the point of my post was clear, still.
    or 'Lurch from one extreme to the other'!
  • justin124 said:

    My point was that Momentum and Corbyn I'm afraid, are electoral poison for Labour and it would be better if they weren't in the party. I also accept that we can't just boot people out for no reason.

    How do you explain 2017 GE result?
    We offered a broadly soft-left manifesto and our leader then wasn't polling -60.

    In 2019 we went into nutty territory with an unpopular leader.

    Now we have a popular leader and will have a 2017-lite manifesto. Seems like a sensible step to me.
    I think the 2017 manifesto was better than the 2019 one.

    I personally don't see this popularity of SKS amongst likely Lab voters. Of course he is looked upon more favourably than Corbyn by those who won't vote Labour anyway I don't see him inspiring new votes.

    I obviously want Labour to win but only chance is an economic disaster IMO
    Far too gloomy - even tonight's poll would imply a Hung Parliament.
    Technical Tory majority I think.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191
    kamski said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    kamski said:

    Charles said:

    Voting by mail is not done inalienable democratic right. The Dems are pushing it for partisan reasons (and the GOP are resisting it for the same reason)

    Limitations on the number of polling stations is far more serious from a democratic perspective. There is no reasonable argument that can be made as to why that might be acceptable.

    What a bizarre and frankly antidemocratic comment. So many people rely on postal voting. You nay as well say the same about polling stations.

    Voting by mail is necessary in some cases (illness, infirmity, etc)

    But it should be for people who are unable to make it to the polling station in person.

    Not available on demand.

    I don’t get your final point though as I explicitly criticised restrictions on numbers of polling stations
    So voting should be made more difficult for those who can’t easily take the day off work in your view ?

    The majority of US states allow voting by mail on demand, and a tenth of them have mail only voting.
    How many allow early voting, and how soon does that start?
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/how-to-vote-2020/

    Gives current information for every state.
    It's depressing to see on that page how many states have lawsuits going on about how people can vote
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    My point was that Momentum and Corbyn I'm afraid, are electoral poison for Labour and it would be better if they weren't in the party. I also accept that we can't just boot people out for no reason.

    How do you explain 2017 GE result?
    We offered a broadly soft-left manifesto and our leader then wasn't polling -60.

    In 2019 we went into nutty territory with an unpopular leader.

    Now we have a popular leader and will have a 2017-lite manifesto. Seems like a sensible step to me.
    I think the 2017 manifesto was better than the 2019 one.

    I personally don't see this popularity of SKS amongst likely Lab voters. Of course he is looked upon more favourably than Corbyn by those who won't vote Labour anyway I don't see him inspiring new votes.

    I obviously want Labour to win but only chance is an economic disaster IMO
    Far too gloomy - even tonight's poll would imply a Hung Parliament.
    Technical Tory majority I think.
    I doubt it - it implies 45 losses to Labour and several to SNP.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,595
    edited August 2020
    It's no exaggeration to say the government could be brought down by the exams / grading fiasco. This is really serious, even more so than the Covid-19 situation itself IMO (although they're obviously related).
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    MattW said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yokes said:

    We simply must expel Momentum, if we are to move forward

    Are you referring to this?

    https://twitter.com/Labour_Insider/status/1294712002322014211

    This is perhaps not as high risk a move as meets the eye. The two big UK political parties are broad churches, its just about the idealogues not being in charge so in that way its not so good if Labour can't encompass the hard left, even if it is effectively muzzled. On the risk of a breakaway party, I'm not sure in electoral terms how much damage it would really do to Labour IF Starmer can connect with the public on a personal level whilst steering a don't frighten the horses Social Democrat path. Those hard left Labour types prepared to die in a ditch vs getting the Conservatives out may be surprisingly small.
    An anonymous "Labour insider" who talks about CowardlyKeir? A likely story.
    This expulsion of Corbyn is not happening, Nick, is it? I have it down as wild rumour created by the heatwave.
    EHRC surely gives grounds if Corbyn is implicated
    How many Tory MPs were expelled for their support of Ian Smith's Rhodesia regime or for being openly sympathetic to Apartheid South Africa? Terry Dicks advocated hanging Nelson Mandela - did he suffer any penalty for airing such views?
    I'm not interested in what the Tory Party does, I am interested in what my party does.
    Corbyn did not support those advocating expulsion of Blair for his activities as a war criminal whilst in office!
    If Corbyn is implicated and he is not expelled, Labour will not be winning the next general election, no way.

    Do we want to win or not, I do.
    I seriously question your judgement - that really is a 'non sequitur'. Someone who has lurched from being a strong advocate of Corbyn to now being ultra critical is not likely to be blessed with a very balanced view on this issue.
    I'm critical because I'm pissed off with his remaining fan club that attacks people like me for supporting Keir Starmer. And the fact he won't sod off and be quiet, instead choosing to attack the leadership.

    My opinion on him has changed, I am not afraid to say that.

    If he isn't found guilty by the EHRC, then that's fine. I want him gone but I accept there are no grounds to do so. And the same for Momentum.
    That would be on a par with Corbyn removing all Blairites from the party following his election in 2015 - or Thatcher getting rid of the 'Wets' post 1979. Far too destructive and divisive.
    No.

    A better analogy is Kinnock clearing out Militant.
    More akin to Gaitskell trying to get rid of the Bevanites in the 1950s.
  • justin124 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yokes said:

    We simply must expel Momentum, if we are to move forward

    Are you referring to this?

    https://twitter.com/Labour_Insider/status/1294712002322014211

    This is perhaps not as high risk a move as meets the eye. The two big UK political parties are broad churches, its just about the idealogues not being in charge so in that way its not so good if Labour can't encompass the hard left, even if it is effectively muzzled. On the risk of a breakaway party, I'm not sure in electoral terms how much damage it would really do to Labour IF Starmer can connect with the public on a personal level whilst steering a don't frighten the horses Social Democrat path. Those hard left Labour types prepared to die in a ditch vs getting the Conservatives out may be surprisingly small.
    An anonymous "Labour insider" who talks about CowardlyKeir? A likely story.
    This expulsion of Corbyn is not happening, Nick, is it? I have it down as wild rumour created by the heatwave.
    EHRC surely gives grounds if Corbyn is implicated
    How many Tory MPs were expelled for their support of Ian Smith's Rhodesia regime or for being openly sympathetic to Apartheid South Africa? Terry Dicks advocated hanging Nelson Mandela - did he suffer any penalty for airing such views?
    I'm not interested in what the Tory Party does, I am interested in what my party does.
    Corbyn did not support those advocating expulsion of Blair for his activities as a war criminal whilst in office!
    If Corbyn is implicated and he is not expelled, Labour will not be winning the next general election, no way.

    Do we want to win or not, I do.
    I seriously question your judgement - that really is a 'non sequitur'. Someone who has lurched from being a strong advocate of Corbyn to now being ultra critical is not likely to be blessed with a very balanced view on this issue.
    I'm critical because I'm pissed off with his remaining fan club that attacks people like me for supporting Keir Starmer. And the fact he won't sod off and be quiet, instead choosing to attack the leadership.

    My opinion on him has changed, I am not afraid to say that.

    If he isn't found guilty by the EHRC, then that's fine. I want him gone but I accept there are no grounds to do so. And the same for Momentum.
    Silly boy
    "When I am wrong, I change my mind."

    John Maynard Keynes
    Ah hem, he said

    "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"
    I hope the point of my post was clear, still.
    or 'Lurch from one extreme to the other'!
    I don't really see the extreme.

    If somebody breaks the rules, they should be expelled. I admit I went overboard earlier on just saying kick them and Momentum out and I'm sorry for that but I think the comments about EHRC are fair.

    And I still don't think I'm wrong, to lose in our worst defeat since 1935, you would be a bit silly to say that Momentum and Corbyn (who were heavily involved), were not responsible.
  • Andy_JS said:

    It's no exaggeration to say the government could be brought down by the exams / grading fiasco. This is really serious, even more so than the Covid-19 situation itself IMO (although they're obviously related).

    Nah no chance.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yokes said:

    We simply must expel Momentum, if we are to move forward

    Are you referring to this?

    https://twitter.com/Labour_Insider/status/1294712002322014211

    This is perhaps not as high risk a move as meets the eye. The two big UK political parties are broad churches, its just about the idealogues not being in charge so in that way its not so good if Labour can't encompass the hard left, even if it is effectively muzzled. On the risk of a breakaway party, I'm not sure in electoral terms how much damage it would really do to Labour IF Starmer can connect with the public on a personal level whilst steering a don't frighten the horses Social Democrat path. Those hard left Labour types prepared to die in a ditch vs getting the Conservatives out may be surprisingly small.
    An anonymous "Labour insider" who talks about CowardlyKeir? A likely story.
    This expulsion of Corbyn is not happening, Nick, is it? I have it down as wild rumour created by the heatwave.
    EHRC surely gives grounds if Corbyn is implicated
    How many Tory MPs were expelled for their support of Ian Smith's Rhodesia regime or for being openly sympathetic to Apartheid South Africa? Terry Dicks advocated hanging Nelson Mandela - did he suffer any penalty for airing such views?
    I'm not interested in what the Tory Party does, I am interested in what my party does.
    Corbyn did not support those advocating expulsion of Blair for his activities as a war criminal whilst in office!
    If Corbyn is implicated and he is not expelled, Labour will not be winning the next general election, no way.

    Do we want to win or not, I do.
    I seriously question your judgement - that really is a 'non sequitur'. Someone who has lurched from being a strong advocate of Corbyn to now being ultra critical is not likely to be blessed with a very balanced view on this issue.
    I'm critical because I'm pissed off with his remaining fan club that attacks people like me for supporting Keir Starmer. And the fact he won't sod off and be quiet, instead choosing to attack the leadership.

    My opinion on him has changed, I am not afraid to say that.

    If he isn't found guilty by the EHRC, then that's fine. I want him gone but I accept there are no grounds to do so. And the same for Momentum.
    I'm bored with Labour people (including some Momentum colleagues) attacking each other - one of the things I like about both Corbyn and Starmer is that they actually don't (Corbyn even refuses to attack Tories personally). Labour should be broad enough to cover all our diverse flavours here, from CHB to Big John to Justin to me, and I don't think the public will be impressed if we start trying to expel each other.

    I expect the EHRC to tackle institutional issues for the party as a whole rather than individual, but no need to speculate as we'll know in a few weeks.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yokes said:

    We simply must expel Momentum, if we are to move forward

    Are you referring to this?

    https://twitter.com/Labour_Insider/status/1294712002322014211

    This is perhaps not as high risk a move as meets the eye. The two big UK political parties are broad churches, its just about the idealogues not being in charge so in that way its not so good if Labour can't encompass the hard left, even if it is effectively muzzled. On the risk of a breakaway party, I'm not sure in electoral terms how much damage it would really do to Labour IF Starmer can connect with the public on a personal level whilst steering a don't frighten the horses Social Democrat path. Those hard left Labour types prepared to die in a ditch vs getting the Conservatives out may be surprisingly small.
    An anonymous "Labour insider" who talks about CowardlyKeir? A likely story.
    This expulsion of Corbyn is not happening, Nick, is it? I have it down as wild rumour created by the heatwave.
    EHRC surely gives grounds if Corbyn is implicated
    How many Tory MPs were expelled for their support of Ian Smith's Rhodesia regime or for being openly sympathetic to Apartheid South Africa? Terry Dicks advocated hanging Nelson Mandela - did he suffer any penalty for airing such views?
    I'm not interested in what the Tory Party does, I am interested in what my party does.
    Corbyn did not support those advocating expulsion of Blair for his activities as a war criminal whilst in office!
    If Corbyn is implicated and he is not expelled, Labour will not be winning the next general election, no way.

    Do we want to win or not, I do.
    I seriously question your judgement - that really is a 'non sequitur'. Someone who has lurched from being a strong advocate of Corbyn to now being ultra critical is not likely to be blessed with a very balanced view on this issue.
    I'm critical because I'm pissed off with his remaining fan club that attacks people like me for supporting Keir Starmer. And the fact he won't sod off and be quiet, instead choosing to attack the leadership.

    My opinion on him has changed, I am not afraid to say that.

    If he isn't found guilty by the EHRC, then that's fine. I want him gone but I accept there are no grounds to do so. And the same for Momentum.
    Silly boy
    "When I am wrong, I change my mind."

    John Maynard Keynes
    Ah hem, he said

    "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"
    I hope the point of my post was clear, still.
    or 'Lurch from one extreme to the other'!
    I don't really see the extreme.

    If somebody breaks the rules, they should be expelled. I admit I went overboard earlier on just saying kick them and Momentum out and I'm sorry for that but I think the comments about EHRC are fair.

    And I still don't think I'm wrong, to lose in our worst defeat since 1935, you would be a bit silly to say that Momentum and Corbyn (who were heavily involved), were not responsible.
    In reality it was a long way from being the worst defeat since 1935 - only the psephologically blinkered and historically ignorant would believe that no matter how often it may be repeated by journalists who have not a clue. In terms of vote share, Labour did better than 1983 - 1987 - 2010 - and 2015.The reduction to 203 seats can be explained by the 2015 electoral earhtquake in Scotland which cost Labour 40 seats under Ed Milliband. In England alone, Labour's 2019 performance was little worse than 1992 - albeit its distribution of support was very different.
  • justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yokes said:

    We simply must expel Momentum, if we are to move forward

    Are you referring to this?

    https://twitter.com/Labour_Insider/status/1294712002322014211

    This is perhaps not as high risk a move as meets the eye. The two big UK political parties are broad churches, its just about the idealogues not being in charge so in that way its not so good if Labour can't encompass the hard left, even if it is effectively muzzled. On the risk of a breakaway party, I'm not sure in electoral terms how much damage it would really do to Labour IF Starmer can connect with the public on a personal level whilst steering a don't frighten the horses Social Democrat path. Those hard left Labour types prepared to die in a ditch vs getting the Conservatives out may be surprisingly small.
    An anonymous "Labour insider" who talks about CowardlyKeir? A likely story.
    This expulsion of Corbyn is not happening, Nick, is it? I have it down as wild rumour created by the heatwave.
    EHRC surely gives grounds if Corbyn is implicated
    How many Tory MPs were expelled for their support of Ian Smith's Rhodesia regime or for being openly sympathetic to Apartheid South Africa? Terry Dicks advocated hanging Nelson Mandela - did he suffer any penalty for airing such views?
    I'm not interested in what the Tory Party does, I am interested in what my party does.
    Corbyn did not support those advocating expulsion of Blair for his activities as a war criminal whilst in office!
    If Corbyn is implicated and he is not expelled, Labour will not be winning the next general election, no way.

    Do we want to win or not, I do.
    I seriously question your judgement - that really is a 'non sequitur'. Someone who has lurched from being a strong advocate of Corbyn to now being ultra critical is not likely to be blessed with a very balanced view on this issue.
    I'm critical because I'm pissed off with his remaining fan club that attacks people like me for supporting Keir Starmer. And the fact he won't sod off and be quiet, instead choosing to attack the leadership.

    My opinion on him has changed, I am not afraid to say that.

    If he isn't found guilty by the EHRC, then that's fine. I want him gone but I accept there are no grounds to do so. And the same for Momentum.
    I'm bored with Labour people (including some Momentum colleagues) attacking each other - one of the things I like about both Corbyn and Starmer is that they actually don't (Corbyn even refuses to attack Tories personally). Labour should be broad enough to cover all our diverse flavours here, from CHB to Big John to Justin to me, and I don't think the public will be impressed if we start trying to expel each other.

    I expect the EHRC to tackle institutional issues for the party as a whole rather than individual, but no need to speculate as we'll know in a few weeks.
    Good post Sir and I will try to refrain as I know you are right.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,595
    edited August 2020

    Andy_JS said:

    It's no exaggeration to say the government could be brought down by the exams / grading fiasco. This is really serious, even more so than the Covid-19 situation itself IMO (although they're obviously related).

    Nah no chance.
    We'll see what happens. Just been listening to an interview with a student on Radio Five Live.
  • justin124 said:

    My point was that Momentum and Corbyn I'm afraid, are electoral poison for Labour and it would be better if they weren't in the party. I also accept that we can't just boot people out for no reason.

    How do you explain 2017 GE result?
    We offered a broadly soft-left manifesto and our leader then wasn't polling -60.

    In 2019 we went into nutty territory with an unpopular leader.

    Now we have a popular leader and will have a 2017-lite manifesto. Seems like a sensible step to me.
    He was very unpopular at the time of the late February 2017 Copeland by election lost to the Tories - and at the end of April Labour was trailing the Tories by circa 25% in several polls.
    It is almost like (a) people didn't think May deserved the early majority projections and then (b) May stacked it. Corbyn was irrelevent.

    I also maintain the Golden Rule of the Jew-Hating Grandpa - Jeremy Corbyn is RUBBISH at day to day politics.
  • My point was that Momentum and Corbyn I'm afraid, are electoral poison for Labour and it would be better if they weren't in the party. I also accept that we can't just boot people out for no reason.

    How do you explain 2017 GE result?
    We offered a broadly soft-left manifesto and our leader then wasn't polling -60.

    In 2019 we went into nutty territory with an unpopular leader.

    Now we have a popular leader and will have a 2017-lite manifesto. Seems like a sensible step to me.
    I think the 2017 manifesto was better than the 2019 one.

    I personally don't see this popularity of SKS amongst likely Lab voters. Of course he is looked upon more favourably than Corbyn by those who won't vote Labour anyway I don't see him inspiring new votes.

    I obviously want Labour to win but only chance is an economic disaster IMO
    That last sentence!
  • Yeah, I support them for the policies but how would you like your rat donner?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,247

    MattW said:



    As the head of the UK arm of an environmental/animal welfare charity

    @NickPalmer

    Can I ask you something else, Nick?

    When you were a Notts MP, did anyone try and get anywhere with asbestos in CLASP schools?

    I see that it is coming to the end of its design life, and I wonder if now is a good time to raise it with my MP given that investment is being targeted here and Notts has about 100 such schools and we currently have lots of govt party MPs.

    Any comments welcome.

    Afaics the asbestos APPG etc was mainly driven by Northern Lab MPs eg County Durham.
    I don't think so. I remember CLASP schools being mentioned as needing replacement in due course, but nothing to do with asbestos, sorry.
    Cheers.
  • eek said:

    That's an easy one to solve.

    Everyone takes their GCSEs next term.

    Then we compare grades to predictions.

    And wont that be interesting.
    Most pupils would do worse than their predictions and probably worse than the algorithm given that most will not have looked at the subjects since March.
    Certainly and many would have done worse if they had taken their exams in June.

    So we have:

    1) Pupils who have got better grades than they would have

    2) Pupils who have got the grades they would have without the risk and work in taking the exams

    3) Pupils who have received worse grades than they would have expected but who will have an risk free opportunity to take exams if they want to improve their grades

    4) Pupils who have received worse grades than they might have got but don't really care because the marks are still good enough

    Its a situation I would have happily accepted throughout all the exams I've ever taken.
    Unless people knew they would need to retake the exam and started preparing months ago the odds of getting a better grade in the October exams is probably zero.

    We looked at it as an option and the school said the chances of it working out are zero ...
    Yet we have people claiming to be multiple grades down.

    Are they also saying that they couldn't do better in an autumn exam ?

    Because if they are I don't believe them.

    When it comes to revision its the couple of weeks before the exam which counts.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,367
    Foxy said:

    Patel says migrants see France as racist

    I expect it is true.

    Difficult to prove because they make a point of not collating information on ethnicity or religion in official stats
    The French state (official and political) is far more hostile to immigrants than the UK - consider the banlieue, the numbers of non-white people in positions of power etc.

    In the last Presidential elections, the actual fascists got 33% of the vote.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,367

    Yeah, I support them for the policies but how would you like your rat donner?


    Rat burger surely?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdld7SqnIxE
This discussion has been closed.