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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Trump launches big legal challenge to try to block memoir by f

SystemSystem Posts: 12,169
edited June 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Trump launches big legal challenge to try to block memoir by former National Security Advisor John Bolton

The big news in the White House race overnight are the first revelations from a book that’s just about to be published by John Bolton – who served as the National Security Advisor for seventeen months.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    Ferrets in a bag.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    .... eerie silence for over an hour here...
    I'll let you all get back to sleep.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    edited June 2020
    Damning piece on the weakness of the Administration's case, and the frivolity of it. God I hope the judge awards damages against Trump's lawyers for bringing what they know to be a frivolous case and wasting court time.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-06-17/trump-lawsuit-against-john-bolton-book-is-beyond-frivolous
  • NorthCadbollNorthCadboll Posts: 332
    Morning all,
    I have always thought Bolton was in the same "dangerous fruitbat" camp as Benjamin Netanyahu. For Trump to attack Bolton is absurd. He really seems to be marginalising all the right-wingers who helped get him where he is. That probably means he will get re-elected because I just cannot fathom out the American electorate. One lot of cousins think Trump is a basket case but don't much like Biden either. Another lot think Trump walks on water! Some just despair for their country.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    .Been watching this for a year or two. They’re finally building a full scale plant.

    World’s biggest liquid air battery starts construction in UK
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/18/worlds-biggest-liquid-air-battery-starts-construction-in-uk
    ... Construction is beginning on the world’s largest liquid air battery, which will store renewable electricity and reduce carbon emissions from fossil-fuel power plants.

    The project near Manchester, UK, will use spare green energy to compress (sic) air into a liquid and store it. When demand is higher, the liquid air is released back into a gas, powering a turbine that puts the green energy back into the grid.

    A big expansion of wind and solar energy is vital to tackle the climate emergency but they are not always available. Storage is therefore key and the new project will be the largest in the world outside of pumped hydro schemes, which require a mountain reservoir to store water.

    The new liquid air battery (sic), being developed by Highview Power, is due to be operational in 2022 and will be able to power up to 200,000 homes for five hours, and store power for many weeks. Chemical batteries are also needed for the transition to a zero-carbon world and are plummeting in price, but can only store relatively small amounts of electricity for short periods....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    Interesting, and potentially very important (though treat with a degree of scepticism for now):

    It Doesn’t Look Like the Protests Are Causing a COVID-19 Spike

    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/06/protests-covid-outdoor-masks.html
    ... Shaman said that he and his team at Columbia modeled the demonstrations as they were occurring, to see whether they could lead to a surge in COVID-19 infections. They ran their model through three scenarios, each with a different premise on how much masks and the open air would suppress transmission of the virus. In the scenario of lowest suppression, there should have been a substantial bump of cases by now, nearly three weeks after the protests began. In the medium scenario, there should have been a slightly lower bump. In the scenario where masks and open air suppressed the transmission to the greatest degree, there was no bump. “That’s what we’re actually seeing,” Shaman said. “The most optimistic scenario turned out to be most accurate.”

    There are caveats to this news, expressed by Shaman and by New York officials. First, they note, the vast majority of protesters were young. Given that people above the age of 50 are more likely to get sick when exposed to the virus, it is not clear that an older crowd would have emerged equally unscathed...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. B, that may change, though. And if it does, complacency may make it much worse.

    On-topic: is Trump holed below the waterline?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Nigelb said:

    .Been watching this for a year or two. They’re finally building a full scale plant.

    World’s biggest liquid air battery starts construction in UK
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/18/worlds-biggest-liquid-air-battery-starts-construction-in-uk
    ... Construction is beginning on the world’s largest liquid air battery, which will store renewable electricity and reduce carbon emissions from fossil-fuel power plants.

    The project near Manchester, UK, will use spare green energy to compress (sic) air into a liquid and store it. When demand is higher, the liquid air is released back into a gas, powering a turbine that puts the green energy back into the grid.

    A big expansion of wind and solar energy is vital to tackle the climate emergency but they are not always available. Storage is therefore key and the new project will be the largest in the world outside of pumped hydro schemes, which require a mountain reservoir to store water.

    The new liquid air battery (sic), being developed by Highview Power, is due to be operational in 2022 and will be able to power up to 200,000 homes for five hours, and store power for many weeks. Chemical batteries are also needed for the transition to a zero-carbon world and are plummeting in price, but can only store relatively small amounts of electricity for short periods....

    That’s a very interesting development. One of the things that has concerned me about our current obsession with batteries is that the materials used to make them are (a) rare and (b) themselves pretty environmentally unfriendly. I have been struggling to see as a result how batteries are the longer term solution to energy needs.

    But if compressed air can be used in this way, that would change things.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Morning all,
    I have always thought Bolton was in the same "dangerous fruitbat" camp as Benjamin Netanyahu. For Trump to attack Bolton is absurd. He really seems to be marginalising all the right-wingers who helped get him where he is. That probably means he will get re-elected because I just cannot fathom out the American electorate. One lot of cousins think Trump is a basket case but don't much like Biden either. Another lot think Trump walks on water! Some just despair for their country.

    It is amazing to think Trump is so mad and incompetent even Mattis and Bolton are criticising him.

    That’s pretty hardcore levels of incompetence we’re talking about.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    An interesting Guardian long read on the ups and downs of global tourism:

    https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2020/jun/18/end-of-tourism-coronavirus-pandemic-travel-industry
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    .Been watching this for a year or two. They’re finally building a full scale plant.

    World’s biggest liquid air battery starts construction in UK
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/18/worlds-biggest-liquid-air-battery-starts-construction-in-uk
    ... Construction is beginning on the world’s largest liquid air battery, which will store renewable electricity and reduce carbon emissions from fossil-fuel power plants.

    The project near Manchester, UK, will use spare green energy to compress (sic) air into a liquid and store it. When demand is higher, the liquid air is released back into a gas, powering a turbine that puts the green energy back into the grid.

    A big expansion of wind and solar energy is vital to tackle the climate emergency but they are not always available. Storage is therefore key and the new project will be the largest in the world outside of pumped hydro schemes, which require a mountain reservoir to store water.

    The new liquid air battery (sic), being developed by Highview Power, is due to be operational in 2022 and will be able to power up to 200,000 homes for five hours, and store power for many weeks. Chemical batteries are also needed for the transition to a zero-carbon world and are plummeting in price, but can only store relatively small amounts of electricity for short periods....

    That’s a very interesting development. One of the things that has concerned me about our current obsession with batteries is that the materials used to make them are (a) rare and (b) themselves pretty environmentally unfriendly. I have been struggling to see as a result how batteries are the longer term solution to energy needs.

    But if compressed air can be used in this way, that would change things.
    Lithium isn’t rare at all - just hard to recover economically.
    That, I think, is set to change in a year or two, as there’s a new technology for separating it out (which I’ll try to post about later).
    Battery makers are gradually getting rid of the need for cobalt.

    There’s a lot of other stuff going on (silicon/sulphur battery chemistries, for instance).

    We’re not there yet, but a fully sustainable battery economy isn’t all that far off.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    ydoethur said:

    Morning all,
    I have always thought Bolton was in the same "dangerous fruitbat" camp as Benjamin Netanyahu. For Trump to attack Bolton is absurd. He really seems to be marginalising all the right-wingers who helped get him where he is. That probably means he will get re-elected because I just cannot fathom out the American electorate. One lot of cousins think Trump is a basket case but don't much like Biden either. Another lot think Trump walks on water! Some just despair for their country.

    It is amazing to think Trump is so mad and incompetent even Mattis and Bolton are criticising him.

    That’s pretty hardcore levels of incompetence we’re talking about.
    The Bolton thing in particular is giving rise to some serious cognitive dissonance.
    Anyhow, got to get to work. Have a good morning.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    edited June 2020
    Bolton is one of the few men alive capable of making one sympathetic to Trump. Trump seems to have Bolton spot on with “ A disgruntled boring fool who only wanted to go to war.“
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    Jonathan said:

    Bolton is one of the few men alive capable of making one sympathetic to Trump. Trump seems to have Bolton spot on with “ A disgruntled boring fool who only wanted to go to war.“

    Which does raise the question of why Trump hired him in the first place.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    .Been watching this for a year or two. They’re finally building a full scale plant.

    World’s biggest liquid air battery starts construction in UK
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/18/worlds-biggest-liquid-air-battery-starts-construction-in-uk
    ... Construction is beginning on the world’s largest liquid air battery, which will store renewable electricity and reduce carbon emissions from fossil-fuel power plants.

    The project near Manchester, UK, will use spare green energy to compress (sic) air into a liquid and store it. When demand is higher, the liquid air is released back into a gas, powering a turbine that puts the green energy back into the grid.

    A big expansion of wind and solar energy is vital to tackle the climate emergency but they are not always available. Storage is therefore key and the new project will be the largest in the world outside of pumped hydro schemes, which require a mountain reservoir to store water.

    The new liquid air battery (sic), being developed by Highview Power, is due to be operational in 2022 and will be able to power up to 200,000 homes for five hours, and store power for many weeks. Chemical batteries are also needed for the transition to a zero-carbon world and are plummeting in price, but can only store relatively small amounts of electricity for short periods....

    That’s a very interesting development. One of the things that has concerned me about our current obsession with batteries is that the materials used to make them are (a) rare and (b) themselves pretty environmentally unfriendly. I have been struggling to see as a result how batteries are the longer term solution to energy needs.

    But if compressed air can be used in this way, that would change things.
    There are a few proposed energy storage solutions which are being examined to avoid use of gas powered 'peaker plants'. I'd be interested in seeing comparisons of the efficiencies. On the other hand it may be horses for courses, e.g. gravity storage using old mineshafts to add to pumped storage that we already have in places such as Dinorwig. The liquid air solution looks like it could be used pretty much anywhere and the same may be true compressed air and of flow batteries.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    .Been watching this for a year or two. They’re finally building a full scale plant.

    World’s biggest liquid air battery starts construction in UK
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/18/worlds-biggest-liquid-air-battery-starts-construction-in-uk
    ... Construction is beginning on the world’s largest liquid air battery, which will store renewable electricity and reduce carbon emissions from fossil-fuel power plants.

    The project near Manchester, UK, will use spare green energy to compress (sic) air into a liquid and store it. When demand is higher, the liquid air is released back into a gas, powering a turbine that puts the green energy back into the grid.

    A big expansion of wind and solar energy is vital to tackle the climate emergency but they are not always available. Storage is therefore key and the new project will be the largest in the world outside of pumped hydro schemes, which require a mountain reservoir to store water.

    The new liquid air battery (sic), being developed by Highview Power, is due to be operational in 2022 and will be able to power up to 200,000 homes for five hours, and store power for many weeks. Chemical batteries are also needed for the transition to a zero-carbon world and are plummeting in price, but can only store relatively small amounts of electricity for short periods....

    That’s a very interesting development. One of the things that has concerned me about our current obsession with batteries is that the materials used to make them are (a) rare and (b) themselves pretty environmentally unfriendly. I have been struggling to see as a result how batteries are the longer term solution to energy needs.

    But if compressed air can be used in this way, that would change things.
    The Germans have used compressed air batteries in combination with natural gas fired power stations, and have managed pretty impressive full cycle efficiencies.

    See: http://www.apexcaes.com/caes
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    IanB2 said:

    An interesting Guardian long read on the ups and downs of global tourism:

    https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2020/jun/18/end-of-tourism-coronavirus-pandemic-travel-industry

    I understand that Thailand has closed it's borders to tourists, with the intention of 'encouraging' rich Thai's, who might otherwise spend their 'holiday morning outside the country doing so inside Thailand.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Bolton is one of the few men alive capable of making one sympathetic to Trump. Trump seems to have Bolton spot on with “ A disgruntled boring fool who only wanted to go to war.“

    Which does raise the question of why Trump hired him in the first place.
    Because Trump is not a politician so when he was elected, Trump had neither a team nor even a list of potential appointees. This meant he fell back on the old neocons around Bush, like Bolton, or left many positions empty for months.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729
    IanB2 said:

    An interesting Guardian long read on the ups and downs of global tourism:

    https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2020/jun/18/end-of-tourism-coronavirus-pandemic-travel-industry

    Does it manage to have a go at the Govt at the same time>? I would be surprised if it was bile free...
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Bolton is one of the few men alive capable of making one sympathetic to Trump. Trump seems to have Bolton spot on with “ A disgruntled boring fool who only wanted to go to war.“

    Which does raise the question of why Trump hired him in the first place.
    Because Trump is not a politician so when he was elected, Trump had neither a team nor even a list of potential appointees. This meant he fell back on the old neocons around Bush, like Bolton, or left many positions empty for months.
    Trump didn't hire Bolton until April, 2018, Bolton was his *fourth* national security advisor, you'd have thought he'd have had time to look at other candidates by then.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    edited June 2020
    If compressed hot air is an effective energy storage medium, has anyone considered using Downing Street to address the nation’s energy needs?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    edited June 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Bolton is one of the few men alive capable of making one sympathetic to Trump. Trump seems to have Bolton spot on with “ A disgruntled boring fool who only wanted to go to war.“

    Which does raise the question of why Trump hired him in the first place.
    Fan GOP service.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Some great threads by Robert and Mike that I've just caught up on.

    My sense is that Trump is in trouble and I'm starting to agree now with Robert that this could be a 'blow out' election.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    IanB2 said:

    An interesting Guardian long read on the ups and downs of global tourism:

    https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2020/jun/18/end-of-tourism-coronavirus-pandemic-travel-industry

    I understand that Thailand has closed it's borders to tourists, with the intention of 'encouraging' rich Thai's, who might otherwise spend their 'holiday morning outside the country doing so inside Thailand.
    Thailand re-opens to global tourism in 12 days time. And Thailand is absolutely utterly dependent on overseas tourists.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited June 2020
    Jonathan said:

    Bolton is one of the few men alive capable of making one sympathetic to Trump. Trump seems to have Bolton spot on with “ A disgruntled boring fool who only wanted to go to war.“

    Well maybe. I suspect that the book by Trump's niece Mary Trump may be even more impactful. It's published on July 28th. I think it may finish off Trump's chances.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/books/2020/06/15/donald-trump-niece-mary-trump-tells-all-family-new-book/3191031001/
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    .Been watching this for a year or two. They’re finally building a full scale plant.

    World’s biggest liquid air battery starts construction in UK
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/18/worlds-biggest-liquid-air-battery-starts-construction-in-uk
    ... Construction is beginning on the world’s largest liquid air battery, which will store renewable electricity and reduce carbon emissions from fossil-fuel power plants.

    The project near Manchester, UK, will use spare green energy to compress (sic) air into a liquid and store it. When demand is higher, the liquid air is released back into a gas, powering a turbine that puts the green energy back into the grid.

    A big expansion of wind and solar energy is vital to tackle the climate emergency but they are not always available. Storage is therefore key and the new project will be the largest in the world outside of pumped hydro schemes, which require a mountain reservoir to store water.

    The new liquid air battery (sic), being developed by Highview Power, is due to be operational in 2022 and will be able to power up to 200,000 homes for five hours, and store power for many weeks. Chemical batteries are also needed for the transition to a zero-carbon world and are plummeting in price, but can only store relatively small amounts of electricity for short periods....

    That’s a very interesting development. One of the things that has concerned me about our current obsession with batteries is that the materials used to make them are (a) rare and (b) themselves pretty environmentally unfriendly. I have been struggling to see as a result how batteries are the longer term solution to energy needs.

    But if compressed air can be used in this way, that would change things.
    The Germans have used compressed air batteries in combination with natural gas fired power stations, and have managed pretty impressive full cycle efficiencies.

    See: http://www.apexcaes.com/caes
    That’s impressive.

    What’s your view on the Rolls Royce “mini-nuclear” SMR development? This is a based from a naval nuclear reactor, but on land, is that right? Could be a big win for UK if it’s workable and exportable.
    https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-8417289/Rolls-Royce-triggers-250bn-nuclear-mini-reactor-race.html
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    Jonathan said:

    Bolton is one of the few men alive capable of making one sympathetic to Trump. Trump seems to have Bolton spot on with “ A disgruntled boring fool who only wanted to go to war.“

    Well maybe. I suspect that the book by Trump's niece Mary Trump may be even more impactful. It's published on July 28th. I think it may finish off Trump's chances.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/books/2020/06/15/donald-trump-niece-mary-trump-tells-all-family-new-book/3191031001/
    Some of these attacks are misjudged. Trump draws energy from criticism and outsider status. It is worth noting that Clinton was similarly ahead in the polls at this stage. Her campaign succeeded only in pushing Trumps support underground. This stuff risks doing the same thing.

    To dismantle Trump, requires a different approach. So long as he owns the MAGA theme, he will be hard to shift.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Crikey.

    Bolton says that Trump sought President Xi's help to win re-election.

    That's going to go down well.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53086042
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Bolton is one of the few men alive capable of making one sympathetic to Trump. Trump seems to have Bolton spot on with “ A disgruntled boring fool who only wanted to go to war.“

    Well maybe. I suspect that the book by Trump's niece Mary Trump may be even more impactful. It's published on July 28th. I think it may finish off Trump's chances.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/books/2020/06/15/donald-trump-niece-mary-trump-tells-all-family-new-book/3191031001/
    Some of these attacks are misjudged. Trump draws energy from criticism and outsider status. It is worth noting that Clinton was similarly ahead in the polls at this stage. Her campaign succeeded only in pushing Trumps support underground. This stuff risks doing the same thing.

    To dismantle Trump, requires a different approach. So long as he owns the MAGA theme, he will be hard to shift.
    The problem of normalcy bias ...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    IanB2 said:

    An interesting Guardian long read on the ups and downs of global tourism:

    https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2020/jun/18/end-of-tourism-coronavirus-pandemic-travel-industry

    Does it manage to have a go at the Govt at the same time>? I would be surprised if it was bile free...
    The article appears to be complaining simultaneously that there’s both too much tourism and not enough of it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    IanB2 said:

    An interesting Guardian long read on the ups and downs of global tourism:

    https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2020/jun/18/end-of-tourism-coronavirus-pandemic-travel-industry

    I understand that Thailand has closed it's borders to tourists, with the intention of 'encouraging' rich Thai's, who might otherwise spend their 'holiday morning outside the country doing so inside Thailand.
    Same in this part of the world, where large numbers of people disappear for the summer. Restrictions on travel are being slowly eased, but the uncertainty is likely to lead to very little 'summering' this year. No-one wants to be stuck somewhere for months on end, or to have to quarantine themselves when they return.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Bolton is one of the few men alive capable of making one sympathetic to Trump. Trump seems to have Bolton spot on with “ A disgruntled boring fool who only wanted to go to war.“

    Well maybe. I suspect that the book by Trump's niece Mary Trump may be even more impactful. It's published on July 28th. I think it may finish off Trump's chances.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/books/2020/06/15/donald-trump-niece-mary-trump-tells-all-family-new-book/3191031001/
    Some of these attacks are misjudged. Trump draws energy from criticism and outsider status. It is worth noting that Clinton was similarly ahead in the polls at this stage. Her campaign succeeded only in pushing Trumps support underground. This stuff risks doing the same thing.

    To dismantle Trump, requires a different approach. So long as he owns the MAGA theme, he will be hard to shift.
    Is there evidence that Trump's support was underground? The MAGA people were pretty openly enthusiastic, and the national polling was almost exactly right so it's not like there were loads of Trump voters who wouldn't admit it to pollsters.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052

    Some great threads by Robert and Mike that I've just caught up on.

    My sense is that Trump is in trouble and I'm starting to agree now with Robert that this could be a 'blow out' election.

    Trying to call Presdiential elections before the conventions is a mug's game. Almost like talking about UK opinion polls four years before the next election.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Fishing said:

    Some great threads by Robert and Mike that I've just caught up on.

    My sense is that Trump is in trouble and I'm starting to agree now with Robert that this could be a 'blow out' election.

    Trying to call Presdiential elections before the conventions is a mug's game. Almost like talking about UK opinion polls four years before the next election.
    Guessing what's going to happen before all the evidence is in is kind of the point of this website...
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    Jonathan said:

    Bolton is one of the few men alive capable of making one sympathetic to Trump. Trump seems to have Bolton spot on with “ A disgruntled boring fool who only wanted to go to war.“

    Trump also resisted hiring Bolton for a long time because he didn't trust men with moustaches, which actually seems quite astute. Bolton is a worse person than Trump, or at least a more dangerous one, but if he wants to piss on Trump from a great heigh I won't stand in his way.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Bolton is one of the few men alive capable of making one sympathetic to Trump. Trump seems to have Bolton spot on with “ A disgruntled boring fool who only wanted to go to war.“

    Well maybe. I suspect that the book by Trump's niece Mary Trump may be even more impactful. It's published on July 28th. I think it may finish off Trump's chances.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/books/2020/06/15/donald-trump-niece-mary-trump-tells-all-family-new-book/3191031001/
    Some of these attacks are misjudged. Trump draws energy from criticism and outsider status. It is worth noting that Clinton was similarly ahead in the polls at this stage. Her campaign succeeded only in pushing Trumps support underground. This stuff risks doing the same thing.

    To dismantle Trump, requires a different approach. So long as he owns the MAGA theme, he will be hard to shift.
    She was not similarily ahead.

    Nationally she was ahead by similar amounts but statewide the polls were faaaaaaar closer than they are now.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Bolton is one of the few men alive capable of making one sympathetic to Trump. Trump seems to have Bolton spot on with “ A disgruntled boring fool who only wanted to go to war.“

    Well maybe. I suspect that the book by Trump's niece Mary Trump may be even more impactful. It's published on July 28th. I think it may finish off Trump's chances.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/books/2020/06/15/donald-trump-niece-mary-trump-tells-all-family-new-book/3191031001/
    Some of these attacks are misjudged. Trump draws energy from criticism and outsider status. It is worth noting that Clinton was similarly ahead in the polls at this stage. Her campaign succeeded only in pushing Trumps support underground. This stuff risks doing the same thing.

    To dismantle Trump, requires a different approach. So long as he owns the MAGA theme, he will be hard to shift.
    Also, pretty his was pretty much the high point of Clinton national polling, the polls got closer from here and Trump even had enough of a convention bounce to overtake her at one point.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,076
    The references to the last US election ('Hillary was ahead'...) sound an awful lot like those who said Corbyn was going to close the gap last year in the same way he did in 2017.

    Trump is much further behind, his opponent is far less divisive than his last one, and the left are motivated in a way they weren't last time. So I think the most likely outcome is a comfortable Biden victory.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    An interesting Guardian long read on the ups and downs of global tourism:

    https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2020/jun/18/end-of-tourism-coronavirus-pandemic-travel-industry

    Does it manage to have a go at the Govt at the same time>? I would be surprised if it was bile free...
    The article appears to be complaining simultaneously that there’s both too much tourism and not enough of it.
    Tourism is fecked for a year at least or ought to be....but people want holidays and will ignore the risks and Govts will let it happen because of financial imperatives.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    Nigelb said:

    .Been watching this for a year or two. They’re finally building a full scale plant.

    World’s biggest liquid air battery starts construction in UK
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/18/worlds-biggest-liquid-air-battery-starts-construction-in-uk
    ... Construction is beginning on the world’s largest liquid air battery, which will store renewable electricity and reduce carbon emissions from fossil-fuel power plants.

    The project near Manchester, UK, will use spare green energy to compress (sic) air into a liquid and store it. When demand is higher, the liquid air is released back into a gas, powering a turbine that puts the green energy back into the grid.

    A big expansion of wind and solar energy is vital to tackle the climate emergency but they are not always available. Storage is therefore key and the new project will be the largest in the world outside of pumped hydro schemes, which require a mountain reservoir to store water.

    The new liquid air battery (sic), being developed by Highview Power, is due to be operational in 2022 and will be able to power up to 200,000 homes for five hours, and store power for many weeks. Chemical batteries are also needed for the transition to a zero-carbon world and are plummeting in price, but can only store relatively small amounts of electricity for short periods....

    Absolutely no indication in that article how efficient it is. Do you know how much energy is lost liquifying the air and then returning it to gas to drive a turbine? That surely is the key to this.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    Jonathan said:

    Bolton is one of the few men alive capable of making one sympathetic to Trump. Trump seems to have Bolton spot on with “ A disgruntled boring fool who only wanted to go to war.“

    Quite possible for that to be true as well as Trump being a moronic narcissist.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    An interesting Guardian long read on the ups and downs of global tourism:

    https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2020/jun/18/end-of-tourism-coronavirus-pandemic-travel-industry

    Does it manage to have a go at the Govt at the same time>? I would be surprised if it was bile free...
    The article appears to be complaining simultaneously that there’s both too much tourism and not enough of it.
    Tourism is fecked for a year at least or ought to be....but people want holidays and will ignore the risks and Govts will let it happen because of financial imperatives.
    Pretty much no-one I've spoken to has any interest in foreign holidays this year, although a few need to travel over the summer for work and family reasons.

    It does seem to be an obsession of journalists though - they appear collectively as if they'll be unable to function if they don't get their three weeks in Tuscany in August, because they've done that for the last two decades. The print media especially benefit from a lot of tourism advertising, which will also be a factor in their coverage.

    IMO inbound tourism to the UK is going to be pretty much non-existent this summer, it would be good to see a big marketing campaign encouraging people to holiday within the UK to help support the economy. As we all know, many businesses in this industry are on the brink, and need every penny they can get in the next few months.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    DavidL said:

    Absolutely no indication in that article how efficient it is. Do you know how much energy is lost liquifying the air and then returning it to gas to drive a turbine? That surely is the key to this.

    If it is used to store "renewable" energy, then no, efficiency doesn't matter, if the raw energy is "free"
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    Absolutely no indication in that article how efficient it is. Do you know how much energy is lost liquifying the air and then returning it to gas to drive a turbine? That surely is the key to this.

    If it is used to store "renewable" energy, then no, efficiency doesn't matter, if the raw energy is "free"
    Of course it matters. The storage facility still requires energy to construct and operate, and is competing with other storage solutions such as batteries, pumped water and molten salt. The question becomes whether this is something that operates at the margins, or is something that's a complete game-changer in terms of storage efficiency.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    Absolutely no indication in that article how efficient it is. Do you know how much energy is lost liquifying the air and then returning it to gas to drive a turbine? That surely is the key to this.

    If it is used to store "renewable" energy, then no, efficiency doesn't matter, if the raw energy is "free"
    Not if there are better and more efficient ways of storing it. Renewable energy is not free and we do not want to waste it. Wind turbines are expensive and wear out relatively quickly. Solar panels require frequent renewal if they are to remain efficient and use interesting materials.
    I have long believed that batteries are the key to renewables taking over from base load power production from nuclear or the like but if 30% of the energy is lost by the conversion the cost advantages will not be as great.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    An interesting Guardian long read on the ups and downs of global tourism:

    https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2020/jun/18/end-of-tourism-coronavirus-pandemic-travel-industry

    Does it manage to have a go at the Govt at the same time>? I would be surprised if it was bile free...
    The article appears to be complaining simultaneously that there’s both too much tourism and not enough of it.
    Tourism is fecked for a year at least or ought to be....but people want holidays and will ignore the risks and Govts will let it happen because of financial imperatives.
    Pretty much no-one I've spoken to has any interest in foreign holidays this year, although a few need to travel over the summer for work and family reasons.

    It does seem to be an obsession of journalists though - they appear collectively as if they'll be unable to function if they don't get their three weeks in Tuscany in August, because they've done that for the last two decades. The print media especially benefit from a lot of tourism advertising, which will also be a factor in their coverage.

    IMO inbound tourism to the UK is going to be pretty much non-existent this summer, it would be good to see a big marketing campaign encouraging people to holiday within the UK to help support the economy. As we all know, many businesses in this industry are on the brink, and need every penny they can get in the next few months.
    Yes, I agree. A co-ordidinated campaign for domestic tourism is well overdue. It is going to be the best time for years to see Britain's sights. Seaside is already mostly a domestic market. Let's hope for decent weather. I will be on the Wight as always, just hope the legendary Red Funnel breakfast starts up again soon.

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    Sandpit said:

    Of course it matters. The storage facility still requires energy to construct and operate, and is competing with other storage solutions such as batteries, pumped water and molten salt. The question becomes whether this is something that operates at the margins, or is something that's a complete game-changer in terms of storage efficiency.

    But that's not an efficiency question

    Pumped water storage may be highly efficient, but you can't build it in the centre of Manchester

    Underground flywheels might be efficient, but they're not safe.

    So, again, if this is compact, and safe, efficiency is not a factor if the energy is "free"
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    An interesting Guardian long read on the ups and downs of global tourism:

    https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2020/jun/18/end-of-tourism-coronavirus-pandemic-travel-industry

    Does it manage to have a go at the Govt at the same time>? I would be surprised if it was bile free...
    The article appears to be complaining simultaneously that there’s both too much tourism and not enough of it.
    Tourism is fecked for a year at least or ought to be....but people want holidays and will ignore the risks and Govts will let it happen because of financial imperatives.
    Pretty much no-one I've spoken to has any interest in foreign holidays this year, although a few need to travel over the summer for work and family reasons.
    .
    Wow that's not my experience at all. Every young person I've spoken to can't wait to get away. I'm not young but I'm in the same boat, or aircraft. In fact I've already booked a fortnight in SE Asia for late Fall.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    An interesting Guardian long read on the ups and downs of global tourism:

    https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2020/jun/18/end-of-tourism-coronavirus-pandemic-travel-industry

    Does it manage to have a go at the Govt at the same time>? I would be surprised if it was bile free...
    The article appears to be complaining simultaneously that there’s both too much tourism and not enough of it.
    Tourism is fecked for a year at least or ought to be....but people want holidays and will ignore the risks and Govts will let it happen because of financial imperatives.
    Pretty much no-one I've spoken to has any interest in foreign holidays this year, although a few need to travel over the summer for work and family reasons.

    It does seem to be an obsession of journalists though - they appear collectively as if they'll be unable to function if they don't get their three weeks in Tuscany in August, because they've done that for the last two decades. The print media especially benefit from a lot of tourism advertising, which will also be a factor in their coverage.

    IMO inbound tourism to the UK is going to be pretty much non-existent this summer, it would be good to see a big marketing campaign encouraging people to holiday within the UK to help support the economy. As we all know, many businesses in this industry are on the brink, and need every penny they can get in the next few months.
    This is going to be absolutely critical to the worst hit segment of our economy and hundreds of thousands of jobs depend on it. Getting places open with requirements that make them viable (1m especially) is the first step but it is not sufficient. Tourists also need things to do and see. We need theme parks, historic buildings, museums, nightclubs etc, etc to find ways of providing a viable and attractive service.

    I do think the demand is there. Enthusiasm for flying will take a while to return and there are a lot of people who have accrued both cash and holidays over the lockdown. Its a question of ensuring the supply.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    .Been watching this for a year or two. They’re finally building a full scale plant.

    World’s biggest liquid air battery starts construction in UK
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/18/worlds-biggest-liquid-air-battery-starts-construction-in-uk
    ... Construction is beginning on the world’s largest liquid air battery, which will store renewable electricity and reduce carbon emissions from fossil-fuel power plants.

    The project near Manchester, UK, will use spare green energy to compress (sic) air into a liquid and store it. When demand is higher, the liquid air is released back into a gas, powering a turbine that puts the green energy back into the grid.

    A big expansion of wind and solar energy is vital to tackle the climate emergency but they are not always available. Storage is therefore key and the new project will be the largest in the world outside of pumped hydro schemes, which require a mountain reservoir to store water.

    The new liquid air battery (sic), being developed by Highview Power, is due to be operational in 2022 and will be able to power up to 200,000 homes for five hours, and store power for many weeks. Chemical batteries are also needed for the transition to a zero-carbon world and are plummeting in price, but can only store relatively small amounts of electricity for short periods....

    Absolutely no indication in that article how efficient it is. Do you know how much energy is lost liquifying the air and then returning it to gas to drive a turbine? That surely is the key to this.
    Compressors are extremely efficient, usually in the 99% range.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    An interesting Guardian long read on the ups and downs of global tourism:

    https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2020/jun/18/end-of-tourism-coronavirus-pandemic-travel-industry

    Does it manage to have a go at the Govt at the same time>? I would be surprised if it was bile free...
    The article appears to be complaining simultaneously that there’s both too much tourism and not enough of it.
    Tourism is fecked for a year at least or ought to be....but people want holidays and will ignore the risks and Govts will let it happen because of financial imperatives.
    Pretty much no-one I've spoken to has any interest in foreign holidays this year, although a few need to travel over the summer for work and family reasons.

    It does seem to be an obsession of journalists though - they appear collectively as if they'll be unable to function if they don't get their three weeks in Tuscany in August, because they've done that for the last two decades. The print media especially benefit from a lot of tourism advertising, which will also be a factor in their coverage.

    IMO inbound tourism to the UK is going to be pretty much non-existent this summer, it would be good to see a big marketing campaign encouraging people to holiday within the UK to help support the economy. As we all know, many businesses in this industry are on the brink, and need every penny they can get in the next few months.
    Yes, I agree. A co-ordidinated campaign for domestic tourism is well overdue. It is going to be the best time for years to see Britain's sights. Seaside is already mostly a domestic market. Let's hope for decent weather. I will be on the Wight as always, just hope the legendary Red Funnel breakfast starts up again soon.

    There has been a noticeable increase in second home owners appearing down here the last week or two, some getting their properties ready for an anticipated July resumption in lettings. Certainly local businesses are hoping for a good UK season, although social distancing measures are going to make it very difficult, especially for cafes and restaurants.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    .Been watching this for a year or two. They’re finally building a full scale plant.

    World’s biggest liquid air battery starts construction in UK
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/18/worlds-biggest-liquid-air-battery-starts-construction-in-uk
    ... Construction is beginning on the world’s largest liquid air battery, which will store renewable electricity and reduce carbon emissions from fossil-fuel power plants.

    The project near Manchester, UK, will use spare green energy to compress (sic) air into a liquid and store it. When demand is higher, the liquid air is released back into a gas, powering a turbine that puts the green energy back into the grid.

    A big expansion of wind and solar energy is vital to tackle the climate emergency but they are not always available. Storage is therefore key and the new project will be the largest in the world outside of pumped hydro schemes, which require a mountain reservoir to store water.

    The new liquid air battery (sic), being developed by Highview Power, is due to be operational in 2022 and will be able to power up to 200,000 homes for five hours, and store power for many weeks. Chemical batteries are also needed for the transition to a zero-carbon world and are plummeting in price, but can only store relatively small amounts of electricity for short periods....

    Absolutely no indication in that article how efficient it is. Do you know how much energy is lost liquifying the air and then returning it to gas to drive a turbine? That surely is the key to this.
    Compressors are extremely efficient, usually in the 99% range.
    Do you mean that 99% of the energy used to compress the air is recovered when it is returned to gas? That would be absolutely incredible but I find it very hard to believe.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    An interesting Guardian long read on the ups and downs of global tourism:

    https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2020/jun/18/end-of-tourism-coronavirus-pandemic-travel-industry

    Does it manage to have a go at the Govt at the same time>? I would be surprised if it was bile free...
    The article appears to be complaining simultaneously that there’s both too much tourism and not enough of it.
    Tourism is fecked for a year at least or ought to be....but people want holidays and will ignore the risks and Govts will let it happen because of financial imperatives.
    Pretty much no-one I've spoken to has any interest in foreign holidays this year, although a few need to travel over the summer for work and family reasons.

    It does seem to be an obsession of journalists though - they appear collectively as if they'll be unable to function if they don't get their three weeks in Tuscany in August, because they've done that for the last two decades. The print media especially benefit from a lot of tourism advertising, which will also be a factor in their coverage.

    IMO inbound tourism to the UK is going to be pretty much non-existent this summer, it would be good to see a big marketing campaign encouraging people to holiday within the UK to help support the economy. As we all know, many businesses in this industry are on the brink, and need every penny they can get in the next few months.
    Not our view. We can`t wait to get away.

    Families that I`ve spoken to split roughly 50/50 on the "would you get on a plane when gov permits, assuming no quarantine" question?

    I think they`ll be a decent enough demand for flights as soon as corridors are agreed and FCO advice changes.

    We`re looking at Greece or Portugal - staying in Europe while the EHIC cards work.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    An interesting Guardian long read on the ups and downs of global tourism:

    https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2020/jun/18/end-of-tourism-coronavirus-pandemic-travel-industry

    Does it manage to have a go at the Govt at the same time>? I would be surprised if it was bile free...
    The article appears to be complaining simultaneously that there’s both too much tourism and not enough of it.
    Tourism is fecked for a year at least or ought to be....but people want holidays and will ignore the risks and Govts will let it happen because of financial imperatives.
    Pretty much no-one I've spoken to has any interest in foreign holidays this year, although a few need to travel over the summer for work and family reasons.
    .
    Wow that's not my experience at all. Every young person I've spoken to can't wait to get away. I'm not young but I'm in the same boat, or aircraft. In fact I've already booked a fortnight in SE Asia for late Fall.
    You're looking forward to sitting for 14 hours in a middle seat, wearing a mask and gloves, with limited food and no drink service - to be followed by a fortnight's quarantine when you get home, if your destination doesn't also decide to quarantine you on the way in, with no travel insurance for Covid risks?

    There may be a few twenty-somethings up for that, as something to tell the future grand-kids they did during the 2020 pandemic, but anyone elderly or with kids sure as hell doesn't want to go near a plane they don't have to be on.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    ydoethur said:

    Morning all,
    I have always thought Bolton was in the same "dangerous fruitbat" camp as Benjamin Netanyahu. For Trump to attack Bolton is absurd. He really seems to be marginalising all the right-wingers who helped get him where he is. That probably means he will get re-elected because I just cannot fathom out the American electorate. One lot of cousins think Trump is a basket case but don't much like Biden either. Another lot think Trump walks on water! Some just despair for their country.

    It is amazing to think Trump is so mad and incompetent even Mattis and Bolton are criticising him.

    That’s pretty hardcore levels of incompetence we’re talking about.
    What’s the reason for including Mattis in this? Isn’t he pretty universally seen as a good guy - with the joke being that Trump only hires him in the first place because he didn’t realise that the nickname “Mad-dog” was, well, a joke?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    An interesting Guardian long read on the ups and downs of global tourism:

    https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2020/jun/18/end-of-tourism-coronavirus-pandemic-travel-industry

    Does it manage to have a go at the Govt at the same time>? I would be surprised if it was bile free...
    The article appears to be complaining simultaneously that there’s both too much tourism and not enough of it.
    Tourism is fecked for a year at least or ought to be....but people want holidays and will ignore the risks and Govts will let it happen because of financial imperatives.
    Pretty much no-one I've spoken to has any interest in foreign holidays this year, although a few need to travel over the summer for work and family reasons.
    .
    Wow that's not my experience at all. Every young person I've spoken to can't wait to get away. I'm not young but I'm in the same boat, or aircraft. In fact I've already booked a fortnight in SE Asia for late Fall.
    You're looking forward to sitting for 14 hours in a middle seat, wearing a mask and gloves, with limited food and no drink service - to be followed by a fortnight's quarantine when you get home, if your destination doesn't also decide to quarantine you on the way in, with no travel insurance for Covid risks?

    There may be a few twenty-somethings up for that, as something to tell the future grand-kids they did during the 2020 pandemic, but anyone elderly or with kids sure as hell doesn't want to go near a plane they don't have to be on.
    Slightly missing the point isn’t it? People don’t want to go away if quarantine measures are in place. To conclude from that that people won’t jump at the opportunity to holiday if quarantine measures are lifted is a bit different.
  • SurreySurrey Posts: 190
    edited June 2020

    Jonathan said:

    Bolton is one of the few men alive capable of making one sympathetic to Trump. Trump seems to have Bolton spot on with “ A disgruntled boring fool who only wanted to go to war.“

    Trump also resisted hiring Bolton for a long time because he didn't trust men with moustaches, which actually seems quite astute.
    If that's true, then Trump has a dad thing going on:

    image

    This is the first time I've heard of a perceived association between moustaches and untrustworthiness, but it seems to be well known. According to one survey the prejudice varies by shape of facial hair such that apparently a full beard is seen as trustworthy whereas a "soul patch" is viewed as threatening:

    image
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    Morning all,
    I have always thought Bolton was in the same "dangerous fruitbat" camp as Benjamin Netanyahu. For Trump to attack Bolton is absurd. He really seems to be marginalising all the right-wingers who helped get him where he is. That probably means he will get re-elected because I just cannot fathom out the American electorate. One lot of cousins think Trump is a basket case but don't much like Biden either. Another lot think Trump walks on water! Some just despair for their country.

    It is amazing to think Trump is so mad and incompetent even Mattis and Bolton are criticising him.

    That’s pretty hardcore levels of incompetence we’re talking about.
    What’s the reason for including Mattis in this? Isn’t he pretty universally seen as a good guy - with the joke being that Trump only hires him in the first place because he didn’t realise that the nickname “Mad-dog” was, well, a joke?
    "I don't lose any sleep at night over the potential for failure. I cannot even spell the word."
    "The first time you blow someone away is not an insignificant event. That said, there are some assholes in the world that just need to be shot."
    "I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you [expletive] with me, I'll kill you all."
    "The most important six inches on the battlefield is between your ears."
    "There is nothing better than getting shot at and missed. It's really great."
    "I'm going to plead with you, do not cross us. Because if you do, the survivors will write about what we do here for 10,000 years."
    "You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil. You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them."


    If you say so...

    (source: BBC, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38056197 )
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    .Been watching this for a year or two. They’re finally building a full scale plant.

    World’s biggest liquid air battery starts construction in UK
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/18/worlds-biggest-liquid-air-battery-starts-construction-in-uk
    ... Construction is beginning on the world’s largest liquid air battery, which will store renewable electricity and reduce carbon emissions from fossil-fuel power plants.

    The project near Manchester, UK, will use spare green energy to compress (sic) air into a liquid and store it. When demand is higher, the liquid air is released back into a gas, powering a turbine that puts the green energy back into the grid.

    A big expansion of wind and solar energy is vital to tackle the climate emergency but they are not always available. Storage is therefore key and the new project will be the largest in the world outside of pumped hydro schemes, which require a mountain reservoir to store water.

    The new liquid air battery (sic), being developed by Highview Power, is due to be operational in 2022 and will be able to power up to 200,000 homes for five hours, and store power for many weeks. Chemical batteries are also needed for the transition to a zero-carbon world and are plummeting in price, but can only store relatively small amounts of electricity for short periods....

    Absolutely no indication in that article how efficient it is. Do you know how much energy is lost liquifying the air and then returning it to gas to drive a turbine? That surely is the key to this.
    Compressors are extremely efficient, usually in the 99% range.
    Do you mean that 99% of the energy used to compress the air is recovered when it is returned to gas? That would be absolutely incredible but I find it very hard to believe.
    No, 99% of the electricity is converted to potential energy as stored compressed air. Overall the process is probably well above 90% in terms of efficiency, nothing in there is an unknown. It's a series of 95%+ efficiency steps.

    The most undesirable effect will be noise pollution from the compression (low frequency noise) and decompression (high frequency noise, it is noticeable for some people, especially people under 40) of air.
  • SurreySurrey Posts: 190
    edited June 2020
    (deleted)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    .Been watching this for a year or two. They’re finally building a full scale plant.

    World’s biggest liquid air battery starts construction in UK
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/18/worlds-biggest-liquid-air-battery-starts-construction-in-uk
    ... Construction is beginning on the world’s largest liquid air battery, which will store renewable electricity and reduce carbon emissions from fossil-fuel power plants.

    The project near Manchester, UK, will use spare green energy to compress (sic) air into a liquid and store it. When demand is higher, the liquid air is released back into a gas, powering a turbine that puts the green energy back into the grid.

    A big expansion of wind and solar energy is vital to tackle the climate emergency but they are not always available. Storage is therefore key and the new project will be the largest in the world outside of pumped hydro schemes, which require a mountain reservoir to store water.

    The new liquid air battery (sic), being developed by Highview Power, is due to be operational in 2022 and will be able to power up to 200,000 homes for five hours, and store power for many weeks. Chemical batteries are also needed for the transition to a zero-carbon world and are plummeting in price, but can only store relatively small amounts of electricity for short periods....

    Absolutely no indication in that article how efficient it is. Do you know how much energy is lost liquifying the air and then returning it to gas to drive a turbine? That surely is the key to this.
    Compressors are extremely efficient, usually in the 99% range.
    Do you mean that 99% of the energy used to compress the air is recovered when it is returned to gas? That would be absolutely incredible but I find it very hard to believe.
    Surely that's the very definition of 'incredible,' David...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    morning all,

    How many shy Trumpers are there, not telling pollsters the truth?

    Seems to be the bug question on the polling.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    An interesting Guardian long read on the ups and downs of global tourism:

    https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2020/jun/18/end-of-tourism-coronavirus-pandemic-travel-industry

    Does it manage to have a go at the Govt at the same time>? I would be surprised if it was bile free...
    The article appears to be complaining simultaneously that there’s both too much tourism and not enough of it.
    Tourism is fecked for a year at least or ought to be....but people want holidays and will ignore the risks and Govts will let it happen because of financial imperatives.
    Pretty much no-one I've spoken to has any interest in foreign holidays this year, although a few need to travel over the summer for work and family reasons.
    .
    Wow that's not my experience at all. Every young person I've spoken to can't wait to get away. I'm not young but I'm in the same boat, or aircraft. In fact I've already booked a fortnight in SE Asia for late Fall.
    You're looking forward to sitting for 14 hours in a middle seat, wearing a mask and gloves, with limited food and no drink service - to be followed by a fortnight's quarantine when you get home, if your destination doesn't also decide to quarantine you on the way in, with no travel insurance for Covid risks?

    There may be a few twenty-somethings up for that, as something to tell the future grand-kids they did during the 2020 pandemic, but anyone elderly or with kids sure as hell doesn't want to go near a plane they don't have to be on.
    I don't think I will be taking a flight for more than an hour for some time to come. I will do my best to stay away from airports completely. Let's face it they were truly appalling places before this: unbelievably crap service, utterly absurd and pointless security requirements (never, ever caught a terrorist), designed to make a rat in a maze feel good as they pushed you by shops you just might be bored enough to shop in. And now an airborne disease! Fantastic.
  • Morning all.

    Any new polls out this weekend?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    Of course it matters. The storage facility still requires energy to construct and operate, and is competing with other storage solutions such as batteries, pumped water and molten salt. The question becomes whether this is something that operates at the margins, or is something that's a complete game-changer in terms of storage efficiency.

    But that's not an efficiency question

    Pumped water storage may be highly efficient, but you can't build it in the centre of Manchester

    Underground flywheels might be efficient, but they're not safe.

    So, again, if this is compact, and safe, efficiency is not a factor if the energy is "free"
    But it's not "free" The storage method has to be built, and both generation and storage methods still have to be run, which costs money and maintenance.

    As DavidL points out, if the storage isn't efficient it may be more efficient to simply feather the turbines rather than run them (and wear them out) when supply exceeds supply.

    There's a lot of moving parts (sic) to energy supply, there still has to be peak demand capacity so your inefficient storage might play a part if it means a coal plant can be decommissioned for example.

    But the question remains, is this liquid air system something that moves the storage game along, or is it simply another storage method?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Morning all.

    Any new polls out this weekend?

    Are you Sunil in disguise, CHB?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    .Been watching this for a year or two. They’re finally building a full scale plant.

    World’s biggest liquid air battery starts construction in UK
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/18/worlds-biggest-liquid-air-battery-starts-construction-in-uk
    ... Construction is beginning on the world’s largest liquid air battery, which will store renewable electricity and reduce carbon emissions from fossil-fuel power plants.

    The project near Manchester, UK, will use spare green energy to compress (sic) air into a liquid and store it. When demand is higher, the liquid air is released back into a gas, powering a turbine that puts the green energy back into the grid.

    A big expansion of wind and solar energy is vital to tackle the climate emergency but they are not always available. Storage is therefore key and the new project will be the largest in the world outside of pumped hydro schemes, which require a mountain reservoir to store water.

    The new liquid air battery (sic), being developed by Highview Power, is due to be operational in 2022 and will be able to power up to 200,000 homes for five hours, and store power for many weeks. Chemical batteries are also needed for the transition to a zero-carbon world and are plummeting in price, but can only store relatively small amounts of electricity for short periods....

    Absolutely no indication in that article how efficient it is. Do you know how much energy is lost liquifying the air and then returning it to gas to drive a turbine? That surely is the key to this.
    Compressors are extremely efficient, usually in the 99% range.
    Do you mean that 99% of the energy used to compress the air is recovered when it is returned to gas? That would be absolutely incredible but I find it very hard to believe.
    Surely that's the very definition of 'incredible,' David...
    Touche!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    Of course it matters. The storage facility still requires energy to construct and operate, and is competing with other storage solutions such as batteries, pumped water and molten salt. The question becomes whether this is something that operates at the margins, or is something that's a complete game-changer in terms of storage efficiency.

    But that's not an efficiency question

    Pumped water storage may be highly efficient, but you can't build it in the centre of Manchester

    Underground flywheels might be efficient, but they're not safe.

    So, again, if this is compact, and safe, efficiency is not a factor if the energy is "free"
    But it's not "free" The storage method has to be built, and both generation and storage methods still have to be run, which costs money and maintenance.

    As DavidL points out, if the storage isn't efficient it may be more efficient to simply feather the turbines rather than run them (and wear them out) when supply exceeds supply.

    There's a lot of moving parts (sic) to energy supply, there still has to be peak demand capacity so your inefficient storage might play a part if it means a coal plant can be decommissioned for example.

    But the question remains, is this liquid air system something that moves the storage game along, or is it simply another storage method?
    It's not an efficiency issue, it's a cost and maintenance one. The material science will be interesting because they will need a container that can withstand rapid cooling down to well below -200 degrees as well as operating at room temperature. I'm guessing this is where the research has been going.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,755
    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    .Been watching this for a year or two. They’re finally building a full scale plant.

    World’s biggest liquid air battery starts construction in UK
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/18/worlds-biggest-liquid-air-battery-starts-construction-in-uk
    ... Construction is beginning on the world’s largest liquid air battery, which will store renewable electricity and reduce carbon emissions from fossil-fuel power plants.

    The project near Manchester, UK, will use spare green energy to compress (sic) air into a liquid and store it. When demand is higher, the liquid air is released back into a gas, powering a turbine that puts the green energy back into the grid.

    A big expansion of wind and solar energy is vital to tackle the climate emergency but they are not always available. Storage is therefore key and the new project will be the largest in the world outside of pumped hydro schemes, which require a mountain reservoir to store water.

    The new liquid air battery (sic), being developed by Highview Power, is due to be operational in 2022 and will be able to power up to 200,000 homes for five hours, and store power for many weeks. Chemical batteries are also needed for the transition to a zero-carbon world and are plummeting in price, but can only store relatively small amounts of electricity for short periods....

    Absolutely no indication in that article how efficient it is. Do you know how much energy is lost liquifying the air and then returning it to gas to drive a turbine? That surely is the key to this.
    Compressors are extremely efficient, usually in the 99% range.
    Do you mean that 99% of the energy used to compress the air is recovered when it is returned to gas? That would be absolutely incredible but I find it very hard to believe.
    Probably just the compression step, with further losses at the turbine generation stage (that part is quite a bit less efficient, I think).

    Presumably quite a release of heat energy on compression to liquid (and in-take of heat on transfer back to gas. I wonder whether anything interesting is done with that (it has the potential to be a giant heat pump depending how it's set up, e.g. heat transfer to another fluid at compression point, cooling of another fluid at the re-expansion point).
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    An interesting Guardian long read on the ups and downs of global tourism:

    https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2020/jun/18/end-of-tourism-coronavirus-pandemic-travel-industry

    Does it manage to have a go at the Govt at the same time>? I would be surprised if it was bile free...
    The article appears to be complaining simultaneously that there’s both too much tourism and not enough of it.
    Tourism is fecked for a year at least or ought to be....but people want holidays and will ignore the risks and Govts will let it happen because of financial imperatives.
    Pretty much no-one I've spoken to has any interest in foreign holidays this year, although a few need to travel over the summer for work and family reasons.
    .
    Wow that's not my experience at all. Every young person I've spoken to can't wait to get away. I'm not young but I'm in the same boat, or aircraft. In fact I've already booked a fortnight in SE Asia for late Fall.
    You're looking forward to sitting for 14 hours in a middle seat, wearing a mask and gloves, with limited food and no drink service - to be followed by a fortnight's quarantine when you get home, if your destination doesn't also decide to quarantine you on the way in, with no travel insurance for Covid risks?

    There may be a few twenty-somethings up for that, as something to tell the future grand-kids they did during the 2020 pandemic, but anyone elderly or with kids sure as hell doesn't want to go near a plane they don't have to be on.
    I don't think I will be taking a flight for more than an hour for some time to come. I will do my best to stay away from airports completely. Let's face it they were truly appalling places before this: unbelievably crap service, utterly absurd and pointless security requirements (never, ever caught a terrorist), designed to make a rat in a maze feel good as they pushed you by shops you just might be bored enough to shop in. And now an airborne disease! Fantastic.
    Indeed, airports were sh!tty enough places before there was a nasty virus going round. It'll be a great summer for the biz jet industry though, definite advantages to being on a plane with half a dozen others, while avoiding the airport hassles.

    (As an example, outbound departures from Dubai International are currently being asked to arrive at the airport *SIX HOURS* before their flight time, to allow for distancing, immigration, enhanced medical and security checks).
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Selebian said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    .Been watching this for a year or two. They’re finally building a full scale plant.

    World’s biggest liquid air battery starts construction in UK
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/18/worlds-biggest-liquid-air-battery-starts-construction-in-uk
    ... Construction is beginning on the world’s largest liquid air battery, which will store renewable electricity and reduce carbon emissions from fossil-fuel power plants.

    The project near Manchester, UK, will use spare green energy to compress (sic) air into a liquid and store it. When demand is higher, the liquid air is released back into a gas, powering a turbine that puts the green energy back into the grid.

    A big expansion of wind and solar energy is vital to tackle the climate emergency but they are not always available. Storage is therefore key and the new project will be the largest in the world outside of pumped hydro schemes, which require a mountain reservoir to store water.

    The new liquid air battery (sic), being developed by Highview Power, is due to be operational in 2022 and will be able to power up to 200,000 homes for five hours, and store power for many weeks. Chemical batteries are also needed for the transition to a zero-carbon world and are plummeting in price, but can only store relatively small amounts of electricity for short periods....

    Absolutely no indication in that article how efficient it is. Do you know how much energy is lost liquifying the air and then returning it to gas to drive a turbine? That surely is the key to this.
    Compressors are extremely efficient, usually in the 99% range.
    Do you mean that 99% of the energy used to compress the air is recovered when it is returned to gas? That would be absolutely incredible but I find it very hard to believe.
    Probably just the compression step, with further losses at the turbine generation stage (that part is quite a bit less efficient, I think).

    Presumably quite a release of heat energy on compression to liquid (and in-take of heat on transfer back to gas. I wonder whether anything interesting is done with that (it has the potential to be a giant heat pump depending how it's set up, e.g. heat transfer to another fluid at compression point, cooling of another fluid at the re-expansion point).
    Yes I had the same thought, the heat transfer effects are very interesting, lots of potential uses.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Universities need to act now on free speech on the campus, or the baleful eye of Cummings and the need for 'sector reorganization' will fall on them.

  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited June 2020
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    An interesting Guardian long read on the ups and downs of global tourism:

    https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2020/jun/18/end-of-tourism-coronavirus-pandemic-travel-industry

    Does it manage to have a go at the Govt at the same time>? I would be surprised if it was bile free...
    The article appears to be complaining simultaneously that there’s both too much tourism and not enough of it.
    Tourism is fecked for a year at least or ought to be....but people want holidays and will ignore the risks and Govts will let it happen because of financial imperatives.
    Pretty much no-one I've spoken to has any interest in foreign holidays this year, although a few need to travel over the summer for work and family reasons.
    .
    Wow that's not my experience at all. Every young person I've spoken to can't wait to get away. I'm not young but I'm in the same boat, or aircraft. In fact I've already booked a fortnight in SE Asia for late Fall.
    You're looking forward to sitting for 14 hours in a middle seat, wearing a mask and gloves, with limited food and no drink service - to be followed by a fortnight's quarantine when you get home, if your destination doesn't also decide to quarantine you on the way in, with no travel insurance for Covid risks?

    There may be a few twenty-somethings up for that, as something to tell the future grand-kids they did during the 2020 pandemic, but anyone elderly or with kids sure as hell doesn't want to go near a plane they don't have to be on.
    Yeah I fly with Qatar, usually Business Class and I normally have a mask with me. They have 99.9% HEPA filtration and the flight breaks into two halves. You don't have to wear gloves and the food service on board Qatar will continue to be superb.

    Flights with Qatar are likely to be safer than supermarket shopping in the UK. In fact, being in most parts of the world is likely to be safer than doing anything in the UK.

    People are going to be much more virus conscious on planes, unlike most of the ill-informed and ill-led wandering around British streets.

    What you're writing is an antipathy to long haul flights and has little or nothing to do with coronavirus.

    And as for the quarantine on return ... lol ;)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    .Been watching this for a year or two. They’re finally building a full scale plant.

    World’s biggest liquid air battery starts construction in UK
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/18/worlds-biggest-liquid-air-battery-starts-construction-in-uk
    ... Construction is beginning on the world’s largest liquid air battery, which will store renewable electricity and reduce carbon emissions from fossil-fuel power plants.

    The project near Manchester, UK, will use spare green energy to compress (sic) air into a liquid and store it. When demand is higher, the liquid air is released back into a gas, powering a turbine that puts the green energy back into the grid.

    A big expansion of wind and solar energy is vital to tackle the climate emergency but they are not always available. Storage is therefore key and the new project will be the largest in the world outside of pumped hydro schemes, which require a mountain reservoir to store water.

    The new liquid air battery (sic), being developed by Highview Power, is due to be operational in 2022 and will be able to power up to 200,000 homes for five hours, and store power for many weeks. Chemical batteries are also needed for the transition to a zero-carbon world and are plummeting in price, but can only store relatively small amounts of electricity for short periods....

    Absolutely no indication in that article how efficient it is. Do you know how much energy is lost liquifying the air and then returning it to gas to drive a turbine? That surely is the key to this.
    Compressors are extremely efficient, usually in the 99% range.
    Do you mean that 99% of the energy used to compress the air is recovered when it is returned to gas? That would be absolutely incredible but I find it very hard to believe.
    No, 99% of the electricity is converted to potential energy as stored compressed air. Overall the process is probably well above 90% in terms of efficiency, nothing in there is an unknown. It's a series of 95%+ efficiency steps.

    The most undesirable effect will be noise pollution from the compression (low frequency noise) and decompression (high frequency noise, it is noticeable for some people, especially people under 40) of air.
    Thanks. It has to be a better and less annoying noise than those sound effects at the Etihad last night.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    An interesting Guardian long read on the ups and downs of global tourism:

    https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2020/jun/18/end-of-tourism-coronavirus-pandemic-travel-industry

    Does it manage to have a go at the Govt at the same time>? I would be surprised if it was bile free...
    The article appears to be complaining simultaneously that there’s both too much tourism and not enough of it.
    Tourism is fecked for a year at least or ought to be....but people want holidays and will ignore the risks and Govts will let it happen because of financial imperatives.
    Pretty much no-one I've spoken to has any interest in foreign holidays this year, although a few need to travel over the summer for work and family reasons.
    .
    Wow that's not my experience at all. Every young person I've spoken to can't wait to get away. I'm not young but I'm in the same boat, or aircraft. In fact I've already booked a fortnight in SE Asia for late Fall.
    You're looking forward to sitting for 14 hours in a middle seat, wearing a mask and gloves, with limited food and no drink service - to be followed by a fortnight's quarantine when you get home, if your destination doesn't also decide to quarantine you on the way in, with no travel insurance for Covid risks?

    There may be a few twenty-somethings up for that, as something to tell the future grand-kids they did during the 2020 pandemic, but anyone elderly or with kids sure as hell doesn't want to go near a plane they don't have to be on.
    I don't think I will be taking a flight for more than an hour for some time to come. I will do my best to stay away from airports completely. Let's face it they were truly appalling places before this: unbelievably crap service, utterly absurd and pointless security requirements (never, ever caught a terrorist), designed to make a rat in a maze feel good as they pushed you by shops you just might be bored enough to shop in. And now an airborne disease! Fantastic.
    To say that security requirements are “pointless” because they (allegedly) “never caught a terrorist” is kind of missing the, well, point, isn’t it? Unless you’ve got a number of examples of them failing to catch terrorists as well.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,755
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    An interesting Guardian long read on the ups and downs of global tourism:

    https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2020/jun/18/end-of-tourism-coronavirus-pandemic-travel-industry

    Does it manage to have a go at the Govt at the same time>? I would be surprised if it was bile free...
    The article appears to be complaining simultaneously that there’s both too much tourism and not enough of it.
    You can't accuse the author of a lack of balance :wink:
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    Of course it matters. The storage facility still requires energy to construct and operate, and is competing with other storage solutions such as batteries, pumped water and molten salt. The question becomes whether this is something that operates at the margins, or is something that's a complete game-changer in terms of storage efficiency.

    But that's not an efficiency question

    Pumped water storage may be highly efficient, but you can't build it in the centre of Manchester

    Underground flywheels might be efficient, but they're not safe.

    So, again, if this is compact, and safe, efficiency is not a factor if the energy is "free"
    But it's not "free" The storage method has to be built, and both generation and storage methods still have to be run, which costs money and maintenance.

    As DavidL points out, if the storage isn't efficient it may be more efficient to simply feather the turbines rather than run them (and wear them out) when supply exceeds supply.

    There's a lot of moving parts (sic) to energy supply, there still has to be peak demand capacity so your inefficient storage might play a part if it means a coal plant can be decommissioned for example.

    But the question remains, is this liquid air system something that moves the storage game along, or is it simply another storage method?
    I would say my more serious concern is that it still wouldn't cover the gap when wind and solar are not working. Take the last two months. During April and into May, we were generating sensational amounts of solar and wind because it was sunny and windy. In fact, at times they and nuclear between them were practically supporting the whole grid due to low demand. But in the last fortnight, because it's been cloudy and very still, the amount of renewable energy produced has fallen off the proverbial cliff. Now storage might work for five hours or even five days. But is it going to work for five weeks? Which it might have to if the weather is bad.

    Of course, in other countries it's a bit different. In the Sahara Desert, such tech would be absolutely perfect, because you will never go a long period without some sunshine. But where our weather system is so variable, we need longer term storage if renewables are to work.

    Or to go back to tides, which Mrs May so foolishly kyboshed.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,755
    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    Absolutely no indication in that article how efficient it is. Do you know how much energy is lost liquifying the air and then returning it to gas to drive a turbine? That surely is the key to this.

    If it is used to store "renewable" energy, then no, efficiency doesn't matter, if the raw energy is "free"
    It matters (along with price) for competing against other forms of storage.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    morning all,

    How many shy Trumpers are there, not telling pollsters the truth?

    Seems to be the bug question on the polling.

    One unknown is the shy Trumpers, the other is the state vs national polling. It makes no difference to the outcome if every adult in CA and NY turns out for Biden. Pollsters have always struggled to get representative samples from state-level polling.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    Ratters said:

    The references to the last US election ('Hillary was ahead'...) sound an awful lot like those who said Corbyn was going to close the gap last year in the same way he did in 2017.

    Trump is much further behind, his opponent is far less divisive than his last one, and the left are motivated in a way they weren't last time. So I think the most likely outcome is a comfortable Biden victory.

    And a chunk of the traditional Republicans, wary of Trump 4 years ago but prepared to give him his vote, are long fed up with his antics.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    It’s not just the hospitality trade asking the government for a clear message from the government and time to plan. It’s schools too.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/schools-and-coronavirus-head-teachers-need-a-clear-message-from-ministers-and-time-to-plan-7ftbdt7gj

    There seems to be a pattern here.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Universities need to act now on free speech on the campus, or the baleful eye of Cummings and the need for 'sector reorganization' will fall on them.

    The last thing we need is for Cummings to start trying to meddle with Universities.

    He would turn them from rather pompous virtue-signalling fellow travellers to full fledged violent anarchists.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434
    edited June 2020
    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    .Been watching this for a year or two. They’re finally building a full scale plant.

    World’s biggest liquid air battery starts construction in UK
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/18/worlds-biggest-liquid-air-battery-starts-construction-in-uk
    ... Construction is beginning on the world’s largest liquid air battery, which will store renewable electricity and reduce carbon emissions from fossil-fuel power plants.

    The project near Manchester, UK, will use spare green energy to compress (sic) air into a liquid and store it. When demand is higher, the liquid air is released back into a gas, powering a turbine that puts the green energy back into the grid.

    A big expansion of wind and solar energy is vital to tackle the climate emergency but they are not always available. Storage is therefore key and the new project will be the largest in the world outside of pumped hydro schemes, which require a mountain reservoir to store water.

    The new liquid air battery (sic), being developed by Highview Power, is due to be operational in 2022 and will be able to power up to 200,000 homes for five hours, and store power for many weeks. Chemical batteries are also needed for the transition to a zero-carbon world and are plummeting in price, but can only store relatively small amounts of electricity for short periods....

    Absolutely no indication in that article how efficient it is. Do you know how much energy is lost liquifying the air and then returning it to gas to drive a turbine? That surely is the key to this.
    Compressors are extremely efficient, usually in the 99% range.
    Do you mean that 99% of the energy used to compress the air is recovered when it is returned to gas? That would be absolutely incredible but I find it very hard to believe.
    No, 99% of the electricity is converted to potential energy as stored compressed air. Overall the process is probably well above 90% in terms of efficiency, nothing in there is an unknown. It's a series of 95%+ efficiency steps.

    The most undesirable effect will be noise pollution from the compression (low frequency noise) and decompression (high frequency noise, it is noticeable for some people, especially people under 40) of air.
    Dinorwig, the large pumped water storage power station in North Wales has an efficiency of 74-76%. If this compressed air system is better than that at scale then that's impressive.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    And I know people who are booking to go to Portugal. I would have no issue about doing so. Wear a mask, use sanitiser and get out there and live your life.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    Morning all,
    I have always thought Bolton was in the same "dangerous fruitbat" camp as Benjamin Netanyahu. For Trump to attack Bolton is absurd. He really seems to be marginalising all the right-wingers who helped get him where he is. That probably means he will get re-elected because I just cannot fathom out the American electorate. One lot of cousins think Trump is a basket case but don't much like Biden either. Another lot think Trump walks on water! Some just despair for their country.

    It is amazing to think Trump is so mad and incompetent even Mattis and Bolton are criticising him.

    That’s pretty hardcore levels of incompetence we’re talking about.
    What’s the reason for including Mattis in this? Isn’t he pretty universally seen as a good guy - with the joke being that Trump only hires him in the first place because he didn’t realise that the nickname “Mad-dog” was, well, a joke?
    "I don't lose any sleep at night over the potential for failure. I cannot even spell the word."
    "The first time you blow someone away is not an insignificant event. That said, there are some assholes in the world that just need to be shot."
    "I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you [expletive] with me, I'll kill you all."
    "The most important six inches on the battlefield is between your ears."
    "There is nothing better than getting shot at and missed. It's really great."
    "I'm going to plead with you, do not cross us. Because if you do, the survivors will write about what we do here for 10,000 years."
    "You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil. You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them."


    If you say so...

    (source: BBC, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38056197 )
    “Torture and cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment is never a morally permissible option, even if lives depend on gaining information,” is his best work.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Cyclefree said:

    It’s not just the hospitality trade asking the government for a clear message from the government and time to plan. It’s schools too.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/schools-and-coronavirus-head-teachers-need-a-clear-message-from-ministers-and-time-to-plan-7ftbdt7gj

    There seems to be a pattern here.

    Meanwhile, the government (and backbench Tory MPs, including some I respect) is blaming the unions for advising their members that at this moment the government's own requirements make it impossible to reopen schools.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,555
    IanB2 said:

    An interesting Guardian long read on the ups and downs of global tourism:

    https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2020/jun/18/end-of-tourism-coronavirus-pandemic-travel-industry

    It is interesting, and clearly concludes that it is a problem without an overall solution, but wealthier Guardian readers can, by being selective, do thrilling things all over the world with a clear conscience while the poor, unguardianista, red-necked mob can discover the delights of their local ice cream shop. See the final sentence, which says exactly that in different words.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited June 2020
    To DavidL, flying Business Class with Qatar Airways is the joy of travel for me. Glorious experience. Indeed, flying economy with them is fine too especially as I have OneWorld Business lounge access.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Alistair said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    Morning all,
    I have always thought Bolton was in the same "dangerous fruitbat" camp as Benjamin Netanyahu. For Trump to attack Bolton is absurd. He really seems to be marginalising all the right-wingers who helped get him where he is. That probably means he will get re-elected because I just cannot fathom out the American electorate. One lot of cousins think Trump is a basket case but don't much like Biden either. Another lot think Trump walks on water! Some just despair for their country.

    It is amazing to think Trump is so mad and incompetent even Mattis and Bolton are criticising him.

    That’s pretty hardcore levels of incompetence we’re talking about.
    What’s the reason for including Mattis in this? Isn’t he pretty universally seen as a good guy - with the joke being that Trump only hires him in the first place because he didn’t realise that the nickname “Mad-dog” was, well, a joke?
    "I don't lose any sleep at night over the potential for failure. I cannot even spell the word."
    "The first time you blow someone away is not an insignificant event. That said, there are some assholes in the world that just need to be shot."
    "I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you [expletive] with me, I'll kill you all."
    "The most important six inches on the battlefield is between your ears."
    "There is nothing better than getting shot at and missed. It's really great."
    "I'm going to plead with you, do not cross us. Because if you do, the survivors will write about what we do here for 10,000 years."
    "You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil. You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them."


    If you say so...

    (source: BBC, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38056197 )
    “Torture and cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment is never a morally permissible option, even if lives depend on gaining information,” is his best work.
    Interesting get-out clause there though.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,755
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    .Been watching this for a year or two. They’re finally building a full scale plant.

    World’s biggest liquid air battery starts construction in UK
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/18/worlds-biggest-liquid-air-battery-starts-construction-in-uk
    ... Construction is beginning on the world’s largest liquid air battery, which will store renewable electricity and reduce carbon emissions from fossil-fuel power plants.

    The project near Manchester, UK, will use spare green energy to compress (sic) air into a liquid and store it. When demand is higher, the liquid air is released back into a gas, powering a turbine that puts the green energy back into the grid.

    A big expansion of wind and solar energy is vital to tackle the climate emergency but they are not always available. Storage is therefore key and the new project will be the largest in the world outside of pumped hydro schemes, which require a mountain reservoir to store water.

    The new liquid air battery (sic), being developed by Highview Power, is due to be operational in 2022 and will be able to power up to 200,000 homes for five hours, and store power for many weeks. Chemical batteries are also needed for the transition to a zero-carbon world and are plummeting in price, but can only store relatively small amounts of electricity for short periods....

    That’s a very interesting development. One of the things that has concerned me about our current obsession with batteries is that the materials used to make them are (a) rare and (b) themselves pretty environmentally unfriendly. I have been struggling to see as a result how batteries are the longer term solution to energy needs.

    But if compressed air can be used in this way, that would change things.
    Lithium isn’t rare at all - just hard to recover economically.
    That, I think, is set to change in a year or two, as there’s a new technology for separating it out (which I’ll try to post about later).
    Battery makers are gradually getting rid of the need for cobalt.

    There’s a lot of other stuff going on (silicon/sulphur battery chemistries, for instance).

    We’re not there yet, but a fully sustainable battery economy isn’t all that far off.
    Energy density in batteries also tends to be much higher than other options, which is relevant if the land needed for the storage solution is expensive. Probably less of an issue for ideas of using old mine-shafts etc, which I guess are pretty cheap having few other uses and likely too highly contaminated for e.g. residential building land.

    (fun fact, different chemistry to grid storage etc, but an AA battery contains approximately enough energy to lift a 1kg weight to a height of 1km)
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    Morning all,
    I have always thought Bolton was in the same "dangerous fruitbat" camp as Benjamin Netanyahu. For Trump to attack Bolton is absurd. He really seems to be marginalising all the right-wingers who helped get him where he is. That probably means he will get re-elected because I just cannot fathom out the American electorate. One lot of cousins think Trump is a basket case but don't much like Biden either. Another lot think Trump walks on water! Some just despair for their country.

    It is amazing to think Trump is so mad and incompetent even Mattis and Bolton are criticising him.

    That’s pretty hardcore levels of incompetence we’re talking about.
    What’s the reason for including Mattis in this? Isn’t he pretty universally seen as a good guy - with the joke being that Trump only hires him in the first place because he didn’t realise that the nickname “Mad-dog” was, well, a joke?
    "I don't lose any sleep at night over the potential for failure. I cannot even spell the word."
    "The first time you blow someone away is not an insignificant event. That said, there are some assholes in the world that just need to be shot."
    "I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you [expletive] with me, I'll kill you all."
    "The most important six inches on the battlefield is between your ears."
    "There is nothing better than getting shot at and missed. It's really great."
    "I'm going to plead with you, do not cross us. Because if you do, the survivors will write about what we do here for 10,000 years."
    "You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil. You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them."


    If you say so...

    (source: BBC, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38056197 )
    “Torture and cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment is never a morally permissible option, even if lives depend on gaining information,” is his best work.
    Interesting get-out clause there though.
    No get out clause at all. Mattis is completely against inhuman treatment of prisoners or axptured enemy personnel. His opposition to the use of torture put him at odds with the Bush administration.

    He literally wrote the book on how wrong the use of torture is.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    .Been watching this for a year or two. They’re finally building a full scale plant.

    World’s biggest liquid air battery starts construction in UK
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/18/worlds-biggest-liquid-air-battery-starts-construction-in-uk
    ... Construction is beginning on the world’s largest liquid air battery, which will store renewable electricity and reduce carbon emissions from fossil-fuel power plants.

    The project near Manchester, UK, will use spare green energy to compress (sic) air into a liquid and store it. When demand is higher, the liquid air is released back into a gas, powering a turbine that puts the green energy back into the grid.

    A big expansion of wind and solar energy is vital to tackle the climate emergency but they are not always available. Storage is therefore key and the new project will be the largest in the world outside of pumped hydro schemes, which require a mountain reservoir to store water.

    The new liquid air battery (sic), being developed by Highview Power, is due to be operational in 2022 and will be able to power up to 200,000 homes for five hours, and store power for many weeks. Chemical batteries are also needed for the transition to a zero-carbon world and are plummeting in price, but can only store relatively small amounts of electricity for short periods....

    Absolutely no indication in that article how efficient it is. Do you know how much energy is lost liquifying the air and then returning it to gas to drive a turbine? That surely is the key to this.
    Compressors are extremely efficient, usually in the 99% range.
    Do you mean that 99% of the energy used to compress the air is recovered when it is returned to gas? That would be absolutely incredible but I find it very hard to believe.
    No, 99% of the electricity is converted to potential energy as stored compressed air. Overall the process is probably well above 90% in terms of efficiency, nothing in there is an unknown. It's a series of 95%+ efficiency steps.

    The most undesirable effect will be noise pollution from the compression (low frequency noise) and decompression (high frequency noise, it is noticeable for some people, especially people under 40) of air.
    Dinorwig, the large pumped water storage power station in North Wales has an efficiency of 74-76%. If this compressed air system is better than that at scale then that's impressive.
    It will be, however, the issues are going to be with the material science as I said earlie. The rapid cooling and heating effects on the container is going to cause cracking which could result in explosive decompression. I suspect that is why such a simple sounding idea has taken so long to develop.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited June 2020
    Alistair said:

    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    Morning all,
    I have always thought Bolton was in the same "dangerous fruitbat" camp as Benjamin Netanyahu. For Trump to attack Bolton is absurd. He really seems to be marginalising all the right-wingers who helped get him where he is. That probably means he will get re-elected because I just cannot fathom out the American electorate. One lot of cousins think Trump is a basket case but don't much like Biden either. Another lot think Trump walks on water! Some just despair for their country.

    It is amazing to think Trump is so mad and incompetent even Mattis and Bolton are criticising him.

    That’s pretty hardcore levels of incompetence we’re talking about.
    What’s the reason for including Mattis in this? Isn’t he pretty universally seen as a good guy - with the joke being that Trump only hires him in the first place because he didn’t realise that the nickname “Mad-dog” was, well, a joke?
    "I don't lose any sleep at night over the potential for failure. I cannot even spell the word."
    "The first time you blow someone away is not an insignificant event. That said, there are some assholes in the world that just need to be shot."
    "I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you [expletive] with me, I'll kill you all."
    "The most important six inches on the battlefield is between your ears."
    "There is nothing better than getting shot at and missed. It's really great."
    "I'm going to plead with you, do not cross us. Because if you do, the survivors will write about what we do here for 10,000 years."
    "You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil. You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them."


    If you say so...

    (source: BBC, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38056197 )
    “Torture and cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment is never a morally permissible option, even if lives depend on gaining information,” is his best work.
    Interesting get-out clause there though.
    No get out clause at all. Mattis is completely against inhuman treatment of prisoners or axptured enemy personnel. His opposition to the use of torture put him at odds with the Bush administration.

    He literally wrote the book on how wrong the use of torture is.
    You seem to have overlooked the use of the word 'morally.' Something that is not morally permissible can still be permissible.

    That does not mean that I am saying he is in favour of torture. Just that if he wanted his statement to be watertight, he should have said, 'is never a permissible option.'

    Anyway, I have teaching to do. Later.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited June 2020
    Alistair said:

    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    ydoethur said:

    Morning all,
    I have always thought Bolton was in the same "dangerous fruitbat" camp as Benjamin Netanyahu. For Trump to attack Bolton is absurd. He really seems to be marginalising all the right-wingers who helped get him where he is. That probably means he will get re-elected because I just cannot fathom out the American electorate. One lot of cousins think Trump is a basket case but don't much like Biden either. Another lot think Trump walks on water! Some just despair for their country.

    It is amazing to think Trump is so mad and incompetent even Mattis and Bolton are criticising him.

    That’s pretty hardcore levels of incompetence we’re talking about.
    What’s the reason for including Mattis in this? Isn’t he pretty universally seen as a good guy - with the joke being that Trump only hires him in the first place because he didn’t realise that the nickname “Mad-dog” was, well, a joke?
    "I don't lose any sleep at night over the potential for failure. I cannot even spell the word."
    "The first time you blow someone away is not an insignificant event. That said, there are some assholes in the world that just need to be shot."
    "I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you [expletive] with me, I'll kill you all."
    "The most important six inches on the battlefield is between your ears."
    "There is nothing better than getting shot at and missed. It's really great."
    "I'm going to plead with you, do not cross us. Because if you do, the survivors will write about what we do here for 10,000 years."
    "You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil. You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them."


    If you say so...

    (source: BBC, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38056197 )
    “Torture and cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment is never a morally permissible option, even if lives depend on gaining information,” is his best work.
    Interesting get-out clause there though.
    No get out clause at all. Mattis is completely against inhuman treatment of prisoners or axptured enemy personnel. His opposition to the use of torture put him at odds with the Bush administration.

    He literally wrote the book on how wrong the use of torture is.
    Quite - he’s specifically referencing the “get out clause” to dismiss it.

    Edit: ok you were referencing something else. But still disagree. The question of whether it is moral or not when it saves lives is the very crux of the debate.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    Universities need to act now on free speech on the campus, or the baleful eye of Cummings and the need for 'sector reorganization' will fall on them.

    They actually have bigger problems, certainly in Scotland where the Universities are facing a complete shit storm.

    The Scottish government gives £1820 per student with a set number of places. This of course is absolutely unsustainable for anything other than the most basic of institutions so Universities have sought English students (£9250 a pop) and foreign non EU students (up to £24K) to cross subsidise. The Russell group members in particular have been very successful at this allowing the Universities to thrive with an ever smaller part of their cohort being made up of Scottish students.

    Boris has now capped the number of English grants that will be paid to Scottish Universities and the foreigners are not coming because of Covid. The Scottish Government is not able to increase the number of places it funds because it has no money. I am not sure whether the likes of Edinburgh, St Andrews and Glasgow will survive. It really depends on how long the foreign market takes to recover but the clock is ticking

    .
This discussion has been closed.