What I found frustrating was how slow our politicians were to pick up on the perils of exponential growth and its health system implications. It was obvious to anyone who looked at the numbers and thought about it.
That was what Thatcher understood about compound growth and the pernicious nature of "managed decline" and the then poisonous acceptance in the governing classes that Britain was "destined" to grow more slowly than her peers.
Yes it's that same attitude is why we haven't stopped international flights. That "it's going to happen so let's just accept it" way of thinking is why we're doing so badly at this, our "experts" aren't fit for purpose.
This is all bollocks, as we've seen no population on earth is as servile to authority as the British...
An interesting view. On what do you base that? Our compliance with government instruction seems to be high, and presently supportive of those instructions, but many places have reacted similarly. What about our reaction has been particularly servile?
Mr. kle4, I suspect many people like liberty, but are less keen on contracting a potentially fatal illness.
I've found it hard to take Toby Young too seriously since seeing him on Question Time a long while ago (might be 10 years now) when he advocated letting everybody know what spies were up to because he didn't see the point of secrets. Think it was in relation to the Snowden affair.
Ultimately it is up to those who are more concerned to change their behaviour. If they are that concerned then 1) they shouldn't be going out as a couple and 2) go out early in the morning/late at night.
True. The ability of all of us to go out and enjoy it does rest heavily on the willingness of everyone to compromise a little and not get too jumpy and paranoid. Or aggressive.
After all, pavements are, generally speaking, insufficiently wide to allow people to remain more than 2m apart when passing by or overtaking one another, and it's by no means always safe for one party to stray into the road to make up the difference.
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Of course any reduction in the use of public transport will make it less viable, certainly for the UK model of making users pay through fares. We may see ourselves moving to a more European model where it is seen more as an essential part of communal living to be funded mostly by government. We could conceivably find that more people want to use public transport, as if people continue to use their cars less, they will find less reason to run multiple cars so will need to use PT occasionally. So less use, but more users.
It's interesting - TfL buses in London are free as of Monday and while, as a public transport user, I'd be delighted to see free tube and train travel, the last time we tried heavily discounted travel the system was overwhelmed because everyone thought free (or very cheap) was a good idea.
Car drivers will of course be angry and they have a point - I do think we need more incentives to car pool and car share but I know from colleagues the car driver "likes their personal space" which I assume means listening to Radiohead or similar.
I've always switched between public transport and driving according to cost and convenience. The fact that I live on my own and like a drink gives me a continuing incentive to use public transport if I can, although none of our local buses run after 7pm I have a very good train service due to being in a commuter town. However there do seem to be lots of people who will be prised from their 4x4 over their cold, dead body.
The days of popping on and off planes like buses are, sadly, gone and we should get with the program.
You may very well be right, in which case international tourism also becomes an expensive luxury. Think of a Eurostar trip to Paris or Amsterdam as a reasonably affordable treat, but two weeks sunning oneself on Rhodes or the Algarve as something that most people on reasonably good incomes only do once every three or four years.
Britain's tourism sector might be able to make good most of the losses from staycationers, but the likes of Spain and Greece will be absolutely fucked.
I doubt that’s true. People and countries will just factor in the risk. Air travel boomed when air travel was still quite dangerous. And what came after ww1 and Spanish flu? The Roaring Twenties
That was a hundred years ago, and most people living in the 1920s were not enjoying upmarket lifestyles.
I think you have an accumulation of factors working against the travel and tourism sector coming out of all this. A lot of people are going to see their finances hit very hard and won't be able to afford to travel, or at any rate to travel abroad, for years. There will be the lingering folk memory of the disasters that have befallen a great many people - and not just cruise ship passengers - who found themselves stuck abroad at the wrong time. Air transportation is bound to become significantly dearer if much of the competition on air routes is removed through collapse or merger of airlines, and if aircraft are taking off half-empty (through lack of available customers and/or the imposition of social distancing measures.) And the environmental lobby loathes air travel above almost all else, and will want green taxes on aviation held in place and ideally extended.
In short, if there isn't a major ongoing recession in air travel and international tourism, even after the coronavirus is finally brought under control, then that might be considered something of a surprise?
The air travel and tourism industry is going to be totally screwed by this, there's going to be an awful lot of bankruptcies and redundancies across the sector. Not a good time to be an airline or a plane manufacturer.
There's going to be a general aversion to being very close to others for a long time to come, and that definitely includes queues to check in, clear the security theatre and sit in an economy-class seat for hours on end. Countries that rely on inbound tourism (Spain and Greece again) are going to suffer massively in the aftermath as people choose to holiday locally rather than fly abroad.
Business travel will also be down, as people have quickly adapted to remote working and realise that Skype and Webex can achieve the majority of what an in-person meeting can do, for a fraction of the cost. Conferences and exhibitions are also going to be very difficult for the next few years.
On the positive side, it will be good news for old, neglected seaside towns such as Blackpool and Southend.
Having been to both of those places I think not
Would be nice to see Ilfracombe have a renaissance though
American Republicans volunteering to catch the virus.
Imagine if a Labour Prime Minister told people in Conservative-run areas to avoid the lockdown and complained said Councils were keeping things like civic amenity sites closed while saying nothing about similar restrictions in Labour-run areas.
The days of popping on and off planes like buses are, sadly, gone and we should get with the program.
You may very well be right, in which case international tourism also becomes an expensive luxury. Think of a Eurostar trip to Paris or Amsterdam as a reasonably affordable treat, but two weeks sunning oneself on Rhodes or the Algarve as something that most people on reasonably good incomes only do once every three or four years.
Britain's tourism sector might be able to make good most of the losses from staycationers, but the likes of Spain and Greece will be absolutely fucked.
I doubt that’s true. People and countries will just factor in the risk. Air travel boomed when air travel was still quite dangerous. And what came after ww1 and Spanish flu? The Roaring Twenties
The Roaring Twenties were a USA thing, the UK was very different.
America did much better than the UK in the 1920s, granted, but even in the UK there was a general surge in growth after the horrors of 1914-1920.
My larger point is about human nature. Young people will still want to travel, explore, make money. The global population is still growing. Technological innovation will not end.
I see light at the end of this somewhat dismal tunnel.
Also worth noting that the 1920s and 30s were amazing for scientific and artistic advances. Possibly the most fertile decades, in that sense, in human history
I agree. This is the first pandemic for most posting here but not humanity’s first. This isn’t, in a strictly macro-historical sense, even a particularly bad one - but I appreciate how insensitive that might sound right now to those who have lost family and friends to this.
FFS - some old biddie in Sutherland is going to walk up and down her stairs 500 times. This nonsense needs to stop.
Careful. Unless you go outside and clap the old cow until your hands bleed you'll be shipped off to a re-education camp until you are sufficiently mawkish and dimwitted.
While we are being properly grumpy about well intentioned people let us remind ourselves, as no-one else is going to, that Captain Moore's efforts (so far) will add roughly 35p per head per year to the roughly £2000 per head per year that the NHS spends. His value as addition to the gaiety of nations is of course beyond price.
commuting long distances and the ability to wfh are almost exclusively white collar workers and only ~10% of the workforce. The average commute is something 1 to 2 miles. if there is a shift to wfh the impact will be massively skewed to London and the professions. train and tube finances will be horrible.
Pre lockdown commuters were crammed into London tubes and trains like cattle. Any easing of that is a win
Of course any reduction in the use of public transport will make it less viable, certainly for the UK model of making users pay through fares. We may see ourselves moving to a more European model where it is seen more as an essential part of communal living to be funded mostly by government. We could conceivably find that more people want to use public transport, as if people continue to use their cars less, they will find less reason to run multiple cars so will need to use PT occasionally. So less use, but more users.
Without having read the story yet, if those people are not used within it as an example of what people think of as 'liberty' lovers but that the real liberty lovers are better than that, then it is a rather cheeky picture selection by the editor.
Does Toby actually believe any of what he writes, or is he just massaging his juvenile sense of humour?
He's one of those who, while he can occasionally make good points, seems to like the sound of his own voice way too much - along with many others who for years have been well paid for their contrary opinions. See also Peter Hitchens, Piers Morgan, Beth Rigby, Robert Peston, Carole Cadwalladr and others.
Why people are still following these narcissistic polemicists I have no idea.
This helps to explain why the plateau phase could last a long time and how dangerous the post-lockdown phase could be.
"An interesting study has emerged in the US which found that the number of people infected with coronavirus could be as much as 85 times higher than previously thought.
The study from Stanford University, which was released Friday, tested samples from 3,330 people in Santa Clara county, in California, and found the virus was 50 to 85 times more common than official figures indicated.
The study, the first large-scale one of its kind and has yet to be peer reviewed, was conducted by identifying antibodies in healthy individuals through a finger prick test, indicating whether they had already contracted and recovered from the virus.
At the time of the study, Santa Clara county had 1,094 confirmed cases of Covid-19, resulting in 50 deaths. But, based on the rate of people who have antibodies, it is likely that between 48,000 and 81,000 people had been infected in the county by early April – a number approximately 50 to 80 times higher."
(Guardian blog)
The implied death rate is, unfortunately, directly contradicted by the number of deaths in New York State. Most likely explanation is that their finger prick test is crap, like the ones tested in the UK.
Spanish tourist ministry have effectively ruled out the sector re-opening this year. There will be measures to cushion busineeses and workers but looks like the costa cerrado will be the rule for this summer!
Ultimately it is up to those who are more concerned to change their behaviour. If they are that concerned then 1) they shouldn't be going out as a couple and 2) go out early in the morning/late at night.
True. The ability of all of us to go out and enjoy it does rest heavily on the willingness of everyone to compromise a little and not get too jumpy and paranoid. Or aggressive.
After all, pavements are, generally speaking, insufficiently wide to allow people to remain more than 2m apart when passing by or overtaking one another, and it's by no means always safe for one party to stray into the road to make up the difference.
In that case, the person facing oncoming traffic should take the responsibility for stepping into the road, if it is safe to do so
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
The days of popping on and off planes like buses are, sadly, gone and we should get with the program.
You may very well be right, in which case international tourism also becomes an expensive luxury. Think of a Eurostar trip to Paris or Amsterdam as a reasonably affordable treat, but two weeks sunning oneself on Rhodes or the Algarve as something that most people on reasonably good incomes only do once every three or four years.
Britain's tourism sector might be able to make good most of the losses from staycationers, but the likes of Spain and Greece will be absolutely fucked.
I doubt that’s true. People and countries will just factor in the risk. Air travel boomed when air travel was still quite dangerous. And what came after ww1 and Spanish flu? The Roaring Twenties
That was a hundred years ago, and most people living in the 1920s were not enjoying upmarket lifestyles.
I think you have an accumulation of factors working against the travel and tourism sector coming out of all this. A lot of people are going to see their finances hit very hard and won't be able to afford to travel, or at any rate to travel abroad, for years. There will be the lingering folk memory of the disasters that have befallen a great many people - and not just cruise ship passengers - who found themselves stuck abroad at the wrong time. Air transportation is bound to become significantly dearer if much of the competition on air routes is removed through collapse or merger of airlines, and if aircraft are taking off half-empty (through lack of available customers and/or the imposition of social distancing measures.) And the environmental lobby loathes air travel above almost all else, and will want green taxes on aviation held in place and ideally extended.
In short, if there isn't a major ongoing recession in air travel and international tourism, even after the coronavirus is finally brought under control, then that might be considered something of a surprise?
The air travel and tourism industry is going to be totally screwed by this, there's going to be an awful lot of bankruptcies and redundancies across the sector. Not a good time to be an airline or a plane manufacturer.
There's going to be a general aversion to being very close to others for a long time to come, and that definitely includes queues to check in, clear the security theatre and sit in an economy-class seat for hours on end. Countries that rely on inbound tourism (Spain and Greece again) are going to suffer massively in the aftermath as people choose to holiday locally rather than fly abroad.
Business travel will also be down, as people have quickly adapted to remote working and realise that Skype and Webex can achieve the majority of what an in-person meeting can do, for a fraction of the cost. Conferences and exhibitions are also going to be very difficult for the next few years.
On the positive side, it will be good news for old, neglected seaside towns such as Blackpool and Southend.
Having been to both of those places I think not
Would be nice to see Ilfracombe have a renaissance though
Indeed. Hopefully increased demand for local holidays might lead, if not to a renaissance, then at least some redevelopment of these old, run-down bucket-and-spade seaside towns.
Does Toby actually believe any of what he writes, or is he just massaging his juvenile sense of humour?
He's a provocateur like so many - he writes to provoke a response. He posits a one-sided argument usually filled with inaccuracies and his own preconceptions and ends with a ridiculously controversial notion which he knows will get a rise from his target audience which are, I assume, "the left".
There are those on "the left" who play the same game usually arguing Tories are in favour of killing off poor people which is absurd but always provokes a response.
The problem is liberals are far too nice, sensible and easy going to say anything provocative which is why there aren't many liberal provocateurs. Liberals are of course right about everything.
The days of popping on and off planes like buses are, sadly, gone and we should get with the program.
You may very well be right, in which case international tourism also becomes an expensive luxury. Think of a Eurostar trip to Paris or Amsterdam as a reasonably affordable treat, but two weeks sunning oneself on Rhodes or the Algarve as something that most people on reasonably good incomes only do once every three or four years.
Britain's tourism sector might be able to make good most of the losses from staycationers, but the likes of Spain and Greece will be absolutely fucked.
I doubt that’s true. People and countries will just factor in the risk. Air travel boomed when air travel was still quite dangerous. And what came after ww1 and Spanish flu? The Roaring Twenties
That was a hundred years ago, and most people living in the 1920s were not enjoying upmarket lifestyles.
I think you have an accumulation of factors working against the travel and tourism sector coming out of all this. A lot of people are going to see their finances hit very hard and won't be able to afford to travel, or at any rate to travel abroad, for years. There will be the lingering folk memory of the disasters that have befallen a great many people - and not just cruise ship passengers - who found themselves stuck abroad at the wrong time. Air transportation is bound to become significantly dearer if much of the competition on air routes is removed through collapse or merger of airlines, and if aircraft are taking off half-empty (through lack of available customers and/or the imposition of social distancing measures.) And the environmental lobby loathes air travel above almost all else, and will want green taxes on aviation held in place and ideally extended.
In short, if there isn't a major ongoing recession in air travel and international tourism, even after the coronavirus is finally brought under control, then that might be considered something of a surprise?
The air travel and tourism industry is going to be totally screwed by this, there's going to be an awful lot of bankruptcies and redundancies across the sector. Not a good time to be an airline or a plane manufacturer.
There's going to be a general aversion to being very close to others for a long time to come, and that definitely includes queues to check in, clear the security theatre and sit in an economy-class seat for hours on end. Countries that rely on inbound tourism (Spain and Greece again) are going to suffer massively in the aftermath as people choose to holiday locally rather than fly abroad.
Business travel will also be down, as people have quickly adapted to remote working and realise that Skype and Webex can achieve the majority of what an in-person meeting can do, for a fraction of the cost. Conferences and exhibitions are also going to be very difficult for the next few years.
On the positive side, it will be good news for old, neglected seaside towns such as Blackpool and Southend.
Having been to both of those places I think not
Would be nice to see Ilfracombe have a renaissance though
The days of popping on and off planes like buses are, sadly, gone and we should get with the program.
You may very well be right, in which case international tourism also becomes an expensive luxury. Think of a Eurostar trip to Paris or Amsterdam as a reasonably affordable treat, but two weeks sunning oneself on Rhodes or the Algarve as something that most people on reasonably good incomes only do once every three or four years.
Britain's tourism sector might be able to make good most of the losses from staycationers, but the likes of Spain and Greece will be absolutely fucked.
I doubt that’s true. People and countries will just factor in the risk. Air travel boomed when air travel was still quite dangerous. And what came after ww1 and Spanish flu? The Roaring Twenties
The Roaring Twenties were a USA thing, the UK was very different.
America did much better than the UK in the 1920s, granted, but even in the UK there was a general surge in growth after the horrors of 1914-1920.
My larger point is about human nature. Young people will still want to travel, explore, make money. The global population is still growing. Technological innovation will not end.
I see light at the end of this somewhat dismal tunnel.
Also worth noting that the 1920s and 30s were amazing for scientific and artistic advances. Possibly the most fertile decades, in that sense, in human history
"The global population is still growing" is the worst thing about it. There's virtually nowhere left to travel to because everybody else is already there. Nobody except perhaps a professional reviewer of stratospherically high end holiday destinations could fail to appreciate this. And do you visit Cairo and think "fine, but underinhabited"?
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
Sorry for bringing this up again, but do you include in that the potential to shut our borders?
This is all bollocks, as we've seen no population on earth is as servile to authority as the British...
Is it the fate of all ex-pats to develop bizarre caricatures about their homeland?
Not me - the Spanish have accepted a mjch more severe lockdown than the UK with general enthusiasm in our zone. We have under 70 confirmed cases in a huge geographical area but the rules are enforced and followed rigidly.
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I think there is a cultural issue with lockdown, which is one reason why East Asia is doing better than Europe right now. In Asia people are used to social control and having the residents committee and Mrs Takihashi telling them what to do. The police don't need to be involved in enforcing lockdown.
This is all bollocks, as we've seen no population on earth is as servile to authority as the British, and compliance here with the (non-compulsory) try-to-stay-at-home orders in places where they've been issued is pretty patchy. Young people in the cities generally don't join their neighbourhood associations, and old people don't want to go out and get coronavirus anyhow.
I suppose it might be true somewhere else, but I can't really think where, since I don't think lockdowns were a big part of the strategy in SK or Taiwan, China and Singapore are big on compulsion, and the people of HK are currently not in a mood to be obedient to their government, to put it mildly.
There may be some cultural issues to do with mask-wearing, hand-shaking and general hygiene, but the main difference has been about what the *governments* did, and in particular how fast they did it.
Responding to @Eadric as well. I was really thinking of the practical implementation. If going out of your front door means passing by a phallanx of self appointed janitors who, if seeing you not wearing a mask, will tell you to go home and put one on, and the same thing will happen when enter the metro etc, which is certainly the case in China, you will just put one on anyway and the police don't need to give you a fine. Same with a bunch of other social distancing regulations. Indeed, you get so conditioned to this, the actual checks don't even need to be there.
This helps to explain why the plateau phase could last a long time and how dangerous the post-lockdown phase could be.
"An interesting study has emerged in the US which found that the number of people infected with coronavirus could be as much as 85 times higher than previously thought.
The study from Stanford University, which was released Friday, tested samples from 3,330 people in Santa Clara county, in California, and found the virus was 50 to 85 times more common than official figures indicated.
The study, the first large-scale one of its kind and has yet to be peer reviewed, was conducted by identifying antibodies in healthy individuals through a finger prick test, indicating whether they had already contracted and recovered from the virus.
At the time of the study, Santa Clara county had 1,094 confirmed cases of Covid-19, resulting in 50 deaths. But, based on the rate of people who have antibodies, it is likely that between 48,000 and 81,000 people had been infected in the county by early April – a number approximately 50 to 80 times higher."
(Guardian blog)
The implied death rate is, unfortunately, directly contradicted by the number of deaths in New York State. Most likely explanation is that their finger prick test is crap, like the ones tested in the UK.
A test with 10% false positives will produce those sort of figures.
Assuming there is one covid19 death on top of recognised numbers and 1.5% mortality, we probably have between 1 and 2 million actual UK infections as a guess.
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
Yesterday morning THE main headline on the BBC website was that the head of an NHS trust had phoned the BBC to get Burberry's phone number to get gowns...
Wow. That’s quite a correction. In context, its a sackable offence.
I will tell you what is a sackable offence.
Running out of gowns meaning rationing of intubation and ventilation.
Stop your pathetic whataboutery
But you were whatabouting Japan just now, and Japan has fucked up ten times as badly as us on the PPE gowns front. Recriminations are not at this stage all that fruitful.
If any one country or group of countries has truly f'd up at all in this respect, of course.
If the entire planetary supply of some of this PPE is insufficient to satisfy present demand, then there will be shortages and they will continue either until sufficient manufacturing capacity is created or until the peak of cases is well past us, whichever happens first.
As I've suggested previously, I'd be surprised if the aftermath of this disaster doesn't include the creation of a much larger domestic industry to make this sort of equipment, along with a huge strategic stockpile of PPE to hedge against any possible recurrence.
Agreed on your final point, and it will likely extend further than merely PPE and to more than just the medical industry. This crisis has revealed our weaknesses.
Where I differ from David H and MaxPB is that I don't think many people are paying much attention to the intricacies of public policy at the moment. In a crisis of this scale, be it war or public health, nominal support rises for the Govt, whichever Govt, because they're in power and seen to be doing their best with an awful situation. I also suspect the eventual triumph over the virus, and at some point this is likely to happen - either with a vaccine or better therapeutic treatments - will overshadow the individually problematic minutiae that an inquiry will doubtless identify.
There will be failings, no doubt - no government across the world will be without its errors. But most people are focusing on how to stay well, support their families, secure a supermarket home delivery slot, go and get their prescriptions (I am still staggered by just how many Brits seem to be on prescriptions, incidentally), and generally get by, day by day.
The media don't seem to understand that Westminster bubble stories, about 'who is in charge of making a decision about x, y and z', or 'why these guidelines have changed' are simply not resonating. This is why, I suspect, public support for the Govt is up, and trust in the media down. The public are also reacting against negativity at the moment, so partisan politics isn't going to work either - and as an aside I think Starmer needs to be careful not to keep carping from the sidelines for this exact reason.
I get that people are struggling under lockdown, but what do protesters believe that the various governments are up to? Turning us into a police state? Killing us off so they don't have to spend too much on us? Do they think the virus is a government plot?
I get that people are struggling under lockdown, but what do protesters believe that the various governments are up to? Turning us into a police state? Killing us off so they don't have to spend too much on us? Do they think the virus is a government plot?
It is quite possible to hold contradictory fixed beliefs:
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
You don't think a more overwhelmed system would not have resulted in an even worse result? Things can be bad, even terrible, without everything that has happened having been bad or useless. It doesn't mean problems or mistakes are to be ignored, but unless you think things not being overwhelmed has literally had no effect I'm somewhat at a loss as to why you would respond in such a way, as you surely cannot believe that, even in a badly managed situation, everything has been bad.
Oh, and as an addendum, I do hope one longer lasting impact of this crisis will be to encourage more healthy eating and a greater awareness of the obesity problem. I suspect that an individual country's health outcomes when faced with a novel virus spreading in the community in such large numbers is more likely to depend upon the pre-existing health of the society which hosts it, than the minutiae of detailed public policy differences....
The days of popping on and off planes like buses are, sadly, gone and we should get with the program.
You may very well be right, in which case international tourism also becomes an expensive luxury. Think of a Eurostar trip to Paris or Amsterdam as a reasonably affordable treat, but two weeks sunning oneself on Rhodes or the Algarve as something that most people on reasonably good incomes only do once every three or four years.
Britain's tourism sector might be able to make good most of the losses from staycationers, but the likes of Spain and Greece will be absolutely fucked.
I doubt that’s true. People and countries will just factor in the risk. Air travel boomed when air travel was still quite dangerous. And what came after ww1 and Spanish flu? The Roaring Twenties
The Roaring Twenties were a USA thing, the UK was very different.
America did much better than the UK in the 1920s, granted, but even in the UK there was a general surge in growth after the horrors of 1914-1920.
My larger point is about human nature. Young people will still want to travel, explore, make money. The global population is still growing. Technological innovation will not end.
I see light at the end of this somewhat dismal tunnel.
Also worth noting that the 1920s and 30s were amazing for scientific and artistic advances. Possibly the most fertile decades, in that sense, in human history
1930s, for Britain, especially. Outside those first two years, economic growth was, iirc, the most consistently high for the UK of any 20th century decade. Compare with our nearest neighbour (France), go on. Do your own homework.
Growth areas include: construction and housing - many of the houses you see in 'older' suburbs are 1930s, country was building hundreds of thousands a year and a total of 2.8 million for the decade. The National grid comes online in 1933, with Battersea Power Station a visual reminder of the scale of the projects being undertaken at this time. Chemistry and chemical engineering - just taking one specific example, you have the invention, design and development of artificial fabrics. Remember what the second syllable in nylon stands for. Cars and other means of transport - the names Bluebird, Queen Mary and Mallard are still in the public mind 80, 90 years later. Aviation Electronics Indeed, it would be the intersection of those last two topics that gave us a small but vital edge in the 1940s.
We had a stable government - while we know what was going on in mainland Europe (not just Germany, but Italy and Spain; meanwhile go and count the number of French PMs they had in the 1930s), the furthest the extremists got here was a jew-baiting Labour-splinter party.
While there are lessons to learn about the hotspots of deprivation and the collapse of certain industries, the view of 1930s Britain as a universally destitute place is a toxic myth.
It was widely reported on the non-FoxNews outlets last night that there was a questionmark among some of the more enthusiastic Trump supporters as to whether the Donald's anti- State Governor Tweets yesterday were infact a 'call to arms'.
I get that people are struggling under lockdown, but what do protesters believe that the various governments are up to? Turning us into a police state? Killing us off so they don't have to spend too much on us? Do they think the virus is a government plot?
It is quite possible to hold contradictory fixed beliefs:
I would suggest it is not only possible it is the most common position for most people. Life is complicated and and most ideas are trying to make things simpler, so ambivalence is inevitable.
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
You don't think a more overwhelmed system would not have resulted in an even worse result? Things can be bad, even terrible, without everything that has happened having been bad or useless. It doesn't mean problems or mistakes are to be ignored, but unless you think things not being overwhelmed has literally had no effect I'm somewhat at a loss as to why you would respond in such a way, as you surely cannot believe that, even in a badly managed situation, everything has been bad.
I have repeatedly said I don’t think it has been all bad. I have this amazing idea that we ought to focus on fixing the mistakes. What I have come to realise is that many pbers would literally prefer to see people die than admit that the Conservative government has made serious mistakes.
Responding to @Eadric as well. I was really thinking of the practical implementation. If going out of your front door means passing by a phallanx of self appointed janitors who, if seeing you not wearing a mask, will tell you to go home and put one on, and the same thing will happen when enter the metro etc, which is certainly the case in China, you will just put one on anyway and the police don't need to give you a fine. Same with a bunch of other social distancing regulations. Indeed, you get so conditioned to this, the actual checks don't even need to be there.
That's true of China, but it's not because of Confucianism or shame culture or something, it's because they're a police state.
And seeing how compliant the British have been with the government's slightly mysterious mix of fairly arbitrary requirements, don't you think they'd be obedient to the phalanx of self-appointed janitors? Assume for the sake of argument that the government was being clear that you should wear a mask, and The Queen and Piers Morgan were wearing them too.
Mr. Royale, sorry for the slow response, been out.
I played England as Eleanor of Aquitaine and had Scotland right next to me. We actually got on incredibly well, even after my supreme cultural power made every city (even the capital) swear loyalty to me. The only exception was a far flung little city in the middle of nowhere.
I get that people are struggling under lockdown, but what do protesters believe that the various governments are up to? Turning us into a police state? Killing us off so they don't have to spend too much on us? Do they think the virus is a government plot?
Does Toby actually believe any of what he writes, or is he just massaging his juvenile sense of humour?
Just as Chris Williamson used to tell us what Jeremy Corbyn thought but could not say out loud, so Toby Young performs the same task for certain members of the cabinet.
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
You don't think a more overwhelmed system would not have resulted in an even worse result? Things can be bad, even terrible, without everything that has happened having been bad or useless. It doesn't mean problems or mistakes are to be ignored, but unless you think things not being overwhelmed has literally had no effect I'm somewhat at a loss as to why you would respond in such a way, as you surely cannot believe that, even in a badly managed situation, everything has been bad.
I have repeatedly said I don’t think it has been all bad. I have this amazing idea that we ought to focus on fixing the mistakes.
That's why your response was so bizarre, because it rather contradicts that view by denigrating the idea something could be a 'win', even in a bad situation. It certainly came across as insisting everything, even comparitively good news, was bad. Perhaps that's why you have to repeatedly clarify you don't think it has all been bad.
I get that people are struggling under lockdown, but what do protesters believe that the various governments are up to? Turning us into a police state? Killing us off so they don't have to spend too much on us? Do they think the virus is a government plot?
People struggle with counterfactuals and so deny they exist. Especially when firmly attached to their prejudices.
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
I certainly didn't. The figures were reasonably clear then, and, given the nature of the UK population density, etc and a slightly more relaxed lockdown, that the UK figures would follow a similar trajectory. It's not good but would have been much worse without the action taken. The big problem from the start was the reluctance of people to take enough action on their own. The difficulty now is accepting that the plateau to decline phase is probably another 4-6 weeks, maybe more, and there will have to be a phased relaxation. Several people seem to be indenial about how quick the recovery period is going to be and about the economic hit that will have to be borne. Viewed from the outside I can see that mistakes were made at al levels - no more or less than elsewhere.
Does Toby actually believe any of what he writes, or is he just massaging his juvenile sense of humour?
Just as Chris Williamson used to tell us what Jeremy Corbyn thought but could not say out loud, so Toby Young performs the same task for certain members of the cabinet.
If you are indeed correct, that is a rather troubling assertion. For what it is worth I suspect you are right.
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
It is worthy of note that our death rate is so high without the system being swamped outside a few hotspots.
I think the "stay at home if you are ill and don't seek medical help" policy is leading to cases presenting late in poorer condition than other countries, which do encourage early diagnosis and treatment. America may have the same problem for different reasons.
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
You don't think a more overwhelmed system would not have resulted in an even worse result? Things can be bad, even terrible, without everything that has happened having been bad or useless. It doesn't mean problems or mistakes are to be ignored, but unless you think things not being overwhelmed has literally had no effect I'm somewhat at a loss as to why you would respond in such a way, as you surely cannot believe that, even in a badly managed situation, everything has been bad.
I have repeatedly said I don’t think it has been all bad. I have this amazing idea that we ought to focus on fixing the mistakes. What I have come to realise is that many pbers would literally prefer to see people die than admit that the Conservative government has made serious mistakes.
Can you name these delusional PB-ers? With all respect, they appear to be in your still befogged and Brexity head.
Even HYUFD is expressing some doubts about the government’s handling of corona
On this thread you will find quite a few pbers who don’t see any problem with what’s been done.
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
You don't think a more overwhelmed system would not have resulted in an even worse result? Things can be bad, even terrible, without everything that has happened having been bad or useless. It doesn't mean problems or mistakes are to be ignored, but unless you think things not being overwhelmed has literally had no effect I'm somewhat at a loss as to why you would respond in such a way, as you surely cannot believe that, even in a badly managed situation, everything has been bad.
I have repeatedly said I don’t think it has been all bad. I have this amazing idea that we ought to focus on fixing the mistakes. What I have come to realise is that many pbers would literally prefer to see people die than admit that the Conservative government has made serious mistakes.
It's apparently a revolutionary idea that when mistakes are made we fix them and learn from them so we don't make them again!
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
You don't think a more overwhelmed system would not have resulted in an even worse result? Things can be bad, even terrible, without everything that has happened having been bad or useless. It doesn't mean problems or mistakes are to be ignored, but unless you think things not being overwhelmed has literally had no effect I'm somewhat at a loss as to why you would respond in such a way, as you surely cannot believe that, even in a badly managed situation, everything has been bad.
I have repeatedly said I don’t think it has been all bad. I have this amazing idea that we ought to focus on fixing the mistakes.
That's why your response was so bizarre, because it rather contradicts that view by denigrating the idea something could be a 'win', even in a bad situation. It certainly came across as insisting everything, even comparitively good news, was bad. Perhaps that's why you have to repeatedly clarify you don't think it has all been bad.
It’s better that people get to die with dignity. It is much better if they don’t die.
The days of popping on and off planes like buses are, sadly, gone and we should get with the program.
You may very well be right, in which case international tourism also becomes an expensive luxury. Think of a Eurostar trip to Paris or Amsterdam as a reasonably affordable treat, but two weeks sunning oneself on Rhodes or the Algarve as something that most people on reasonably good incomes only do once every three or four years.
Britain's tourism sector might be able to make good most of the losses from staycationers, but the likes of Spain and Greece will be absolutely fucked.
I doubt that’s true. People and countries will just factor in the risk. Air travel boomed when air travel was still quite dangerous. And what came after ww1 and Spanish flu? The Roaring Twenties
That was a hundred years ago, and most people living in the 1920s were not enjoying upmarket lifestyles.
I think you have an accumulation of factors working against the travel and tourism sector coming out of all this. A lot of people are going to see their finances hit very hard and won't be able to afford to travel, or at any rate to travel abroad, for years. There will be the lingering folk memory of the disasters that have befallen a great many people - and not just cruise ship passengers - who found themselves stuck abroad at the wrong time. Air transportation is bound to become significantly dearer if much of the competition on air routes is removed through collapse or merger of airlines, and if aircraft are taking off half-empty (through lack of available customers and/or the imposition of social distancing measures.) And the environmental lobby loathes air travel above almost all else, and will want green taxes on aviation held in place and ideally extended.
In short, if there isn't a major ongoing recession in air travel and international tourism, even after the coronavirus is finally brought under control, then that might be considered something of a surprise?
The air travel and tourism industry is going to be totally screwed by this, there's going to be an awful lot of bankruptcies and redundancies across the sector. Not a good time to be an airline or a plane manufacturer.
There's going to be a general aversion to being very close to others for a long time to come, and that definitely includes queues to check in, clear the security theatre and sit in an economy-class seat for hours on end. Countries that rely on inbound tourism (Spain and Greece again) are going to suffer massively in the aftermath as people choose to holiday locally rather than fly abroad.
Business travel will also be down, as people have quickly adapted to remote working and realise that Skype and Webex can achieve the majority of what an in-person meeting can do, for a fraction of the cost. Conferences and exhibitions are also going to be very difficult for the next few years.
On the positive side, it will be good news for old, neglected seaside towns such as Blackpool and Southend.
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
You don't think a more overwhelmed system would not have resulted in an even worse result? Things can be bad, even terrible, without everything that has happened having been bad or useless. It doesn't mean problems or mistakes are to be ignored, but unless you think things not being overwhelmed has literally had no effect I'm somewhat at a loss as to why you would respond in such a way, as you surely cannot believe that, even in a badly managed situation, everything has been bad.
I have repeatedly said I don’t think it has been all bad. I have this amazing idea that we ought to focus on fixing the mistakes. What I have come to realise is that many pbers would literally prefer to see people die than admit that the Conservative government has made serious mistakes.
Can you name these delusional PB-ers? With all respect, they appear to be in your still befogged and Brexity head.
Even HYUFD is expressing some doubts about the government’s handling of corona
There's also a big difference between suggesting with hindsight that the government may have planned better and taken decisions differently, and suggesting that the decisions were made the way they were out of deliberate malice.
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
You don't think a more overwhelmed system would not have resulted in an even worse result? Things can be bad, even terrible, without everything that has happened having been bad or useless. It doesn't mean problems or mistakes are to be ignored, but unless you think things not being overwhelmed has literally had no effect I'm somewhat at a loss as to why you would respond in such a way, as you surely cannot believe that, even in a badly managed situation, everything has been bad.
I have repeatedly said I don’t think it has been all bad. I have this amazing idea that we ought to focus on fixing the mistakes. What I have come to realise is that many pbers would literally prefer to see people die than admit that the Conservative government has made serious mistakes.
Can you name these delusional PB-ers? With all respect, they appear to be in your still befogged and Brexity head.
Even HYUFD is expressing some doubts about the government’s handling of corona
That being true, why is HYUFD still selling us statistics claiming the death rates in the UK are not as bad as Italy and Spain, without adding any caveats, namely the UK might be ten to fourteen days behind Spain and Italy along the curve.
We are not going back to how things were. That is pretty much all we can know from here. It will be fascinating to see how things play out.
I can’t say I am enjoying the lockdown, but I am enjoying the fact that nature is getting a breather after decades of relentless human assault. Obviously, it won’t last, but the opportunity to get a glimpse of how things used to be is a huge positive for me.
However, there are many who do not have time to contemplate such things. I imagine that mental health cases are multiplying alongside financial woes. A lot of people are really suffering and the linger it goes on the more if them there will be.
Yes the breather that nature is getting is lovely. I personally don’t want things to go back to how they were. If life post lockdown is a mixture of how it is now and was before, that’s better in my opinion.
Mental health may be improving under lockdown. A couple of my friends who have their own businesses say they feel clear minded for the first time in years. No commuting is a relief to many. People with a tendency to worry/fear the worst are saying they feel strangely comfortable with being proved right! I am sure there are arguments on the other side.
Helps that the govt is paying for people to stay home and not work though
Yep, I am finding that it's kind of nice to have ttime to breathe and I am definitely not missing the commuting, but there are a lot of people living on their own or in cramped conditions with people they do not want to be with, while many do not qualify for the furlough scheme or have lost their jobs outright. I think all this is going to be tough on a lot of kids, as well, for multiple reasons. Being with parents who do not get along with no chance to get out to school or to play with friemds is going to be hugely difficult, for example.
Quite a beast. Think you'll like The Lobster too, when I get round to that. (The name is nothing to do with the adult moth, but its really weird larvae...although to my mind, they look closer to the Alien facehugger!)
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
You don't think a more overwhelmed system would not have resulted in an even worse result? Things can be bad, even terrible, without everything that has happened having been bad or useless. It doesn't mean problems or mistakes are to be ignored, but unless you think things not being overwhelmed has literally had no effect I'm somewhat at a loss as to why you would respond in such a way, as you surely cannot believe that, even in a badly managed situation, everything has been bad.
I have repeatedly said I don’t think it has been all bad. I have this amazing idea that we ought to focus on fixing the mistakes. What I have come to realise is that many pbers would literally prefer to see people die than admit that the Conservative government has made serious mistakes.
Can you name these delusional PB-ers? With all respect, they appear to be in your still befogged and Brexity head.
Even HYUFD is expressing some doubts about the government’s handling of corona
On this thread you will find quite a few pbers who don’t see any problem with what’s been done.
So, name them
NorthCadboll, Socky and DavidL just from the first few responses. You can work your way through the thread for yourself.
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
You don't think a more overwhelmed system would not have resulted in an even worse result? Things can be bad, even terrible, without everything that has happened having been bad or useless. It doesn't mean problems or mistakes are to be ignored, but unless you think things not being overwhelmed has literally had no effect I'm somewhat at a loss as to why you would respond in such a way, as you surely cannot believe that, even in a badly managed situation, everything has been bad.
I have repeatedly said I don’t think it has been all bad. I have this amazing idea that we ought to focus on fixing the mistakes.
That's why your response was so bizarre, because it rather contradicts that view by denigrating the idea something could be a 'win', even in a bad situation. It certainly came across as insisting everything, even comparitively good news, was bad. Perhaps that's why you have to repeatedly clarify you don't think it has all been bad.
It’s better that people get to die with dignity. It is much better if they don’t die.
Who said otherwise? From your response, then, it would seem you don't think any lives at all have actually been saved as a result of managing the capacity faced by the NHS? It's just meant people have died more comfortably? Since that means efforts to reduce pressure on the NHS have been pointless in terms of saving any lives that would seem to put you in line with those who think we should not have lockdowned at all?
I confess, the more you explain your position the further away from what I thought it was it seems.
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
You don't think a more overwhelmed system would not have resulted in an even worse result? Things can be bad, even terrible, without everything that has happened having been bad or useless. It doesn't mean problems or mistakes are to be ignored, but unless you think things not being overwhelmed has literally had no effect I'm somewhat at a loss as to why you would respond in such a way, as you surely cannot believe that, even in a badly managed situation, everything has been bad.
I have repeatedly said I don’t think it has been all bad. I have this amazing idea that we ought to focus on fixing the mistakes. What I have come to realise is that many pbers would literally prefer to see people die than admit that the Conservative government has made serious mistakes.
Can you name these delusional PB-ers? With all respect, they appear to be in your still befogged and Brexity head.
Even HYUFD is expressing some doubts about the government’s handling of corona
There's also a big difference between suggesting with hindsight that the government may have planned better and taken decisions differently, and suggesting that the decisions were made the way they were out of deliberate malice.
Who is saying the Government has royally fucked up out of deliberate malice
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
You don't think a more overwhelmed system would not have resulted in an even worse result? Things can be bad, even terrible, without everything that has happened having been bad or useless. It doesn't mean problems or mistakes are to be ignored, but unless you think things not being overwhelmed has literally had no effect I'm somewhat at a loss as to why you would respond in such a way, as you surely cannot believe that, even in a badly managed situation, everything has been bad.
I have repeatedly said I don’t think it has been all bad. I have this amazing idea that we ought to focus on fixing the mistakes. What I have come to realise is that many pbers would literally prefer to see people die than admit that the Conservative government has made serious mistakes.
Can you name these delusional PB-ers? With all respect, they appear to be in your still befogged and Brexity head.
Even HYUFD is expressing some doubts about the government’s handling of corona
On this thread you will find quite a few pbers who don’t see any problem with what’s been done.
So, name them
NorthCadboll, Socky and DavidL just from the first few responses. You can work your way through the thread for yourself.
The days of popping on and off planes like buses are, sadly, gone and we should get with the program.
You may very well be right, in which case international tourism also becomes an expensive luxury. Think of a Eurostar trip to Paris or Amsterdam as a reasonably affordable treat, but two weeks sunning oneself on Rhodes or the Algarve as something that most people on reasonably good incomes only do once every three or four years.
Britain's tourism sector might be able to make good most of the losses from staycationers, but the likes of Spain and Greece will be absolutely fucked.
I doubt that’s true. People and countries will just factor in the risk. Air travel boomed when air travel was still quite dangerous. And what came after ww1 and Spanish flu? The Roaring Twenties
That was a hundred years ago, and most people living in the 1920s were not enjoying upmarket lifestyles.
I think you have an accumulation of factors working against the travel and tourism sector coming out of all this. A lot of people are going to see their finances hit very hard and won't be able to afford to travel, or at any rate to travel abroad, for years. There will be the lingering folk memory of the disasters that have befallen a great many people - and not just cruise ship passengers - who found themselves stuck abroad at the wrong time. Air transportation is bound to become significantly dearer if much of the competition on air routes is removed through collapse or merger of airlines, and if aircraft are taking off half-empty (through lack of available customers and/or the imposition of social distancing measures.) And the environmental lobby loathes air travel above almost all else, and will want green taxes on aviation held in place and ideally extended.
In short, if there isn't a major ongoing recession in air travel and international tourism, even after the coronavirus is finally brought under control, then that might be considered something of a surprise?
The air travel and tourism industry is going to be totally screwed by this, there's going to be an awful lot of bankruptcies and redundancies across the sector. Not a good time to be an airline or a plane manufacturer.
There's going to be a general aversion to being very close to others for a long time to come, and that definitely includes queues to check in, clear the security theatre and sit in an economy-class seat for hours on end. Countries that rely on inbound tourism (Spain and Greece again) are going to suffer massively in the aftermath as people choose to holiday locally rather than fly abroad.
Business travel will also be down, as people have quickly adapted to remote working and realise that Skype and Webex can achieve the majority of what an in-person meeting can do, for a fraction of the cost. Conferences and exhibitions are also going to be very difficult for the next few years.
On the positive side, it will be good news for old, neglected seaside towns such as Blackpool and Southend.
I'd rather be in lockup than go to Blackpool ...
The great benefit of being in lockdown in Blackpool is that you wouldn't be allowed to go out to Blackpool.
Even that may not save you. Last time I stayed in a hotel in Blackpool, the couple (I say couple, there may have been several in there) in the next room were having the most extraordinarily loud sex....
The air travel and tourism industry is going to be totally screwed by this, there's going to be an awful lot of bankruptcies and redundancies across the sector. Not a good time to be an airline or a plane manufacturer.
There's going to be a general aversion to being very close to others for a long time to come, and that definitely includes queues to check in, clear the security theatre and sit in an economy-class seat for hours on end. Countries that rely on inbound tourism (Spain and Greece again) are going to suffer massively in the aftermath as people choose to holiday locally rather than fly abroad.
Business travel will also be down, as people have quickly adapted to remote working and realise that Skype and Webex can achieve the majority of what an in-person meeting can do, for a fraction of the cost. Conferences and exhibitions are also going to be very difficult for the next few years.
On the positive side, it will be good news for old, neglected seaside towns such as Blackpool and Southend.
Only for a couple of weeks. Once someone you know has been to Blackpool I suspect their stories will stop any friends, acquaintances and even mortal enemies from go there.
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
It is worthy of note that our death rate is so high without the system being swamped outside a few hotspots.
I think the "stay at home if you are ill and don't seek medical help" policy is leading to cases presenting late in poorer condition than other countries, which do encourage early diagnosis and treatment. America may have the same problem for different reasons.
Yes, I wonder if this is British stoicism and reserve at work. Mustn’t grumble, never mind, keep calm and carry on, OK it might be a heart attack, I don’t want to make a fuss, let’s have a cup of tea, oh I’m dead.
A lot of Brits are like that, and in many ways it is admirable (and will serve us well in future) but it might mean people are dying at home who should really be in the (underused) A&Es.
There is no internationally recognised approved standard for a coronavirus death. we could simply be more conscientious or liberal than some others.
Even Piers Morgan is cottoning on to this. As I understand it there may be no distinction in Britain between dying of Corona and dying with Corona. It gets recorded as a Corona death.
And so we are making crucial policy decisions based on completely unreliable data.
Does Toby actually believe any of what he writes, or is he just massaging his juvenile sense of humour?
He's one of those who, while he can occasionally make good points, seems to like the sound of his own voice way too much - along with many others who for years have been well paid for their contrary opinions. See also Peter Hitchens, Piers Morgan, Beth Rigby, Robert Peston, Carole Cadwalladr and others.
Why people are still following these narcissistic polemicists I have no idea.
Lord Young did his son no favours by getting him into Oxford. Should have told the idle little whatsit that if his results were only good enough for North London Poly, then......
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
You don't think a more overwhelmed system would not have resulted in an even worse result? Things can be bad, even terrible, without everything that has happened having been bad or useless. It doesn't mean problems or mistakes are to be ignored, but unless you think things not being overwhelmed has literally had no effect I'm somewhat at a loss as to why you would respond in such a way, as you surely cannot believe that, even in a badly managed situation, everything has been bad.
I have repeatedly said I don’t think it has been all bad. I have this amazing idea that we ought to focus on fixing the mistakes. What I have come to realise is that many pbers would literally prefer to see people die than admit that the Conservative government has made serious mistakes.
Can you name these delusional PB-ers? With all respect, they appear to be in your still befogged and Brexity head.
Even HYUFD is expressing some doubts about the government’s handling of corona
There's also a big difference between suggesting with hindsight that the government may have planned better and taken decisions differently, and suggesting that the decisions were made the way they were out of deliberate malice.
No one has yet come up with a remotely plausible explanation why the government is refusing to cooperate in any way with the EU over the pandemic other than blind dogma. I seen a lot of “well it wouldn’t matter anyway”, and “the EU have been incompetent” and such like, but no explanation you might actually call rational. It seems very likely that people will die as a result of that decision.
The rest I will willingly accept is woeful incompetence rather than malice.
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
It is worthy of note that our death rate is so high without the system being swamped outside a few hotspots.
I think the "stay at home if you are ill and don't seek medical help" policy is leading to cases presenting late in poorer condition than other countries, which do encourage early diagnosis and treatment. America may have the same problem for different reasons.
Yes, I wonder if this is British stoicism and reserve at work. Mustn’t grumble, never mind, keep calm and carry on, OK it might be a heart attack, I don’t want to make a fuss, let’s have a cup of tea, oh I’m dead.
A lot of Brits are like that, and in many ways it is admirable (and will serve us well in future) but it might mean people are dying at home who should really be in the (underused) A&Es.
A combination of that and a fear of setting foot in medical establishments at the moment. Partly because people think they're more likely to catch Covid-19 in a hospital than anywhere else, and partly because anybody who is hospitalised knows that they're completely on their own due to the near-total prohibition of visitors.
Yesterday morning THE main headline on the BBC website was that the head of an NHS trust had phoned the BBC to get Burberry's phone number to get gowns...
Every time a new thread appears on PB.com in one way or another critical of Government policy, I have a guess as regards its author ... usually OGH as regards the shorter threads, or either Cyclefree or AlastairMeeks for the longer contributions, once again expressing their well-rehearsed anti-Tory views. It was something of a surprise therefore as I scrolled down to see David Herdson's name appear at the foot of this morning's thread, especially as I found it difficult to disagree with a single word he had written.
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
You don't think a more overwhelmed system would not have resulted in an even worse result? Things can be bad, even terrible, without everything that has happened having been bad or useless. It doesn't mean problems or mistakes are to be ignored, but unless you think things not being overwhelmed has literally had no effect I'm somewhat at a loss as to why you would respond in such a way, as you surely cannot believe that, even in a badly managed situation, everything has been bad.
I have repeatedly said I don’t think it has been all bad. I have this amazing idea that we ought to focus on fixing the mistakes. What I have come to realise is that many pbers would literally prefer to see people die than admit that the Conservative government has made serious mistakes.
Can you name these delusional PB-ers? With all respect, they appear to be in your still befogged and Brexity head.
Even HYUFD is expressing some doubts about the government’s handling of corona
There's also a big difference between suggesting with hindsight that the government may have planned better and taken decisions differently, and suggesting that the decisions were made the way they were out of deliberate malice.
No one has yet come up with a remotely plausible explanation why the government is refusing to cooperate in any way with the EU over the pandemic other than blind dogma. I seen a lot of “well it wouldn’t matter anyway”, and “the EU have been incompetent” and such like, but no explanation you might actually call rational. It seems very likely that people will die as a result of that decision.
The rest I will willingly accept is woeful incompetence rather than malice.
Because the governments strategy, as opposed to the EU strategy, is actually delivering the equipment?
The air travel and tourism industry is going to be totally screwed by this, there's going to be an awful lot of bankruptcies and redundancies across the sector. Not a good time to be an airline or a plane manufacturer.
There's going to be a general aversion to being very close to others for a long time to come, and that definitely includes queues to check in, clear the security theatre and sit in an economy-class seat for hours on end. Countries that rely on inbound tourism (Spain and Greece again) are going to suffer massively in the aftermath as people choose to holiday locally rather than fly abroad.
Business travel will also be down, as people have quickly adapted to remote working and realise that Skype and Webex can achieve the majority of what an in-person meeting can do, for a fraction of the cost. Conferences and exhibitions are also going to be very difficult for the next few years.
On the positive side, it will be good news for old, neglected seaside towns such as Blackpool and Southend.
Only for a couple of weeks. Once someone you know has been to Blackpool I suspect their stories will stop any friends, acquaintances and even mortal enemies from go there.
Blackpool only looks like a holiday destination to somebody who has never been to the Mediterranean (or even seen the Mediterranean on telly). Its heyday was based on mass emigrations from the Lancashire mill towns by people who fitted those criteria. Itr's not coming back.
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
You don't think a more overwhelmed system would not have resulted in an even worse result? Things can be bad, even terrible, without everything that has happened having been bad or useless. It doesn't mean problems or mistakes are to be ignored, but unless you think things not being overwhelmed has literally had no effect I'm somewhat at a loss as to why you would respond in such a way, as you surely cannot believe that, even in a badly managed situation, everything has been bad.
I have repeatedly said I don’t think it has been all bad. I have this amazing idea that we ought to focus on fixing the mistakes. What I have come to realise is that many pbers would literally prefer to see people die than admit that the Conservative government has made serious mistakes.
Can you name these delusional PB-ers? With all respect, they appear to be in your still befogged and Brexity head.
Even HYUFD is expressing some doubts about the government’s handling of corona
There's also a big difference between suggesting with hindsight that the government may have planned better and taken decisions differently, and suggesting that the decisions were made the way they were out of deliberate malice.
No one has yet come up with a remotely plausible explanation why the government is refusing to cooperate in any way with the EU over the pandemic other than blind dogma. I seen a lot of “well it wouldn’t matter anyway”, and “the EU have been incompetent” and such like, but no explanation you might actually call rational. It seems very likely that people will die as a result of that decision.
The rest I will willingly accept is woeful incompetence rather than malice.
What are we not co-operating with the EU over.
Ventilators we have our own suppliers (and we actually have manufacturers in the UK) and the first EU procured ones seem to have a delivery date of July on them PPE is all made abroad and there is nowhere in europe that makes it.
From memory those are the two areas I seem to think you were complaining about.
And the EU's response to Italy and Spain prior to last week is all the more reason to be glad to be aware from it.
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
You don't think a more overwhelmed system would not have resulted in an even worse result? Things can be bad, even terrible, without everything that has happened having been bad or useless. It doesn't mean problems or mistakes are to be ignored, but unless you think things not being overwhelmed has literally had no effect I'm somewhat at a loss as to why you would respond in such a way, as you surely cannot believe that, even in a badly managed situation, everything has been bad.
I have repeatedly said I don’t think it has been all bad. I have this amazing idea that we ought to focus on fixing the mistakes. What I have come to realise is that many pbers would literally prefer to see people die than admit that the Conservative government has made serious mistakes.
Can you name these delusional PB-ers? With all respect, they appear to be in your still befogged and Brexity head.
Even HYUFD is expressing some doubts about the government’s handling of corona
There's also a big difference between suggesting with hindsight that the government may have planned better and taken decisions differently, and suggesting that the decisions were made the way they were out of deliberate malice.
No one has yet come up with a remotely plausible explanation why the government is refusing to cooperate in any way with the EU over the pandemic other than blind dogma. I seen a lot of “well it wouldn’t matter anyway”, and “the EU have been incompetent” and such like, but no explanation you might actually call rational. It seems very likely that people will die as a result of that decision.
The rest I will willingly accept is woeful incompetence rather than malice.
Because the governments strategy, as opposed to the EU strategy, is actually delivering the equipment?
You might not have noticed from Dubai, but the NHS is now just about out of PPE.
There is no internationally recognised approved standard for a coronavirus death. we could simply be more conscientious or liberal than some others.
Even Piers Morgan is cottoning on to this. As I understand it there may be no distinction in Britain between dying of Corona and dying with Corona. It gets recorded as a Corona death.
And so we are making crucial policy decisions based on completely unreliable data.
It was most remiss of this Government not to pick up the Covid-19 Operators Manual, that comes with detailed instructions on how to deal with it in all its multifarious bastard forms.
Mr Meeks clearly has his own copy, because he knows exactly what we should be doing at every moment of every stage. Personally, I think he is being an arsehole for not sharing it....
"At least 50% of the population of both the UK and Sweden will likely be shown to have already had the disease when mass antibody testing becomes available"
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
You don't think a more overwhelmed system would not have resulted in an even worse result? Things can be bad, even terrible, without everything that has happened having been bad or useless. It doesn't mean problems or mistakes are to be ignored, but unless you think things not being overwhelmed has literally had no effect I'm somewhat at a loss as to why you would respond in such a way, as you surely cannot believe that, even in a badly managed situation, everything has been bad.
I have repeatedly said I don’t think it has been all bad. I have this amazing idea that we ought to focus on fixing the mistakes. What I have come to realise is that many pbers would literally prefer to see people die than admit that the Conservative government has made serious mistakes.
Can you name these delusional PB-ers? With all respect, they appear to be in your still befogged and Brexity head.
Even HYUFD is expressing some doubts about the government’s handling of corona
There's also a big difference between suggesting with hindsight that the government may have planned better and taken decisions differently, and suggesting that the decisions were made the way they were out of deliberate malice.
No one has yet come up with a remotely plausible explanation why the government is refusing to cooperate in any way with the EU over the pandemic other than blind dogma. I seen a lot of “well it wouldn’t matter anyway”, and “the EU have been incompetent” and such like, but no explanation you might actually call rational. It seems very likely that people will die as a result of that decision.
The rest I will willingly accept is woeful incompetence rather than malice.
Because the governments strategy, as opposed to the EU strategy, is actually delivering the equipment?
You might not have noticed from Dubai, but the NHS is now just about out of PPE.
And so has most of the rest of europe, in many cases a fortnight ago.
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
You don't think a more overwhelmed system would not have resulted in an even worse result? Things can be bad, even terrible, without everything that has happened having been bad or useless. It doesn't mean problems or mistakes are to be ignored, but unless you think things not being overwhelmed has literally had no effect I'm somewhat at a loss as to why you would respond in such a way, as you surely cannot believe that, even in a badly managed situation, everything has been bad.
I have repeatedly said I don’t think it has been all bad. I have this amazing idea that we ought to focus on fixing the mistakes. What I have come to realise is that many pbers would literally prefer to see people die than admit that the Conservative government has made serious mistakes.
Can you name these delusional PB-ers? With all respect, they appear to be in your still befogged and Brexity head.
Even HYUFD is expressing some doubts about the government’s handling of corona
There's also a big difference between suggesting with hindsight that the government may have planned better and taken decisions differently, and suggesting that the decisions were made the way they were out of deliberate malice.
No one has yet come up with a remotely plausible explanation why the government is refusing to cooperate in any way with the EU over the pandemic other than blind dogma. I seen a lot of “well it wouldn’t matter anyway”, and “the EU have been incompetent” and such like, but no explanation you might actually call rational. It seems very likely that people will die as a result of that decision.
The rest I will willingly accept is woeful incompetence rather than malice.
Because the governments strategy, as opposed to the EU strategy, is actually delivering the equipment?
You might not have noticed from Dubai, but the NHS is now just about out of PPE.
And so has most of the rest of europe, in many cases a fortnight ago.
From what I hear they are nearly out of certain types of PPE
As you say it seems from North Essex the fact that this is a worldwide problem seems to have missed him
The air travel and tourism industry is going to be totally screwed by this, there's going to be an awful lot of bankruptcies and redundancies across the sector. Not a good time to be an airline or a plane manufacturer.
There's going to be a general aversion to being very close to others for a long time to come, and that definitely includes queues to check in, clear the security theatre and sit in an economy-class seat for hours on end. Countries that rely on inbound tourism (Spain and Greece again) are going to suffer massively in the aftermath as people choose to holiday locally rather than fly abroad.
Business travel will also be down, as people have quickly adapted to remote working and realise that Skype and Webex can achieve the majority of what an in-person meeting can do, for a fraction of the cost. Conferences and exhibitions are also going to be very difficult for the next few years.
On the positive side, it will be good news for old, neglected seaside towns such as Blackpool and Southend.
Only for a couple of weeks. Once someone you know has been to Blackpool I suspect their stories will stop any friends, acquaintances and even mortal enemies from go there.
Blackpool only looks like a holiday destination to somebody who has never been to the Mediterranean (or even seen the Mediterranean on telly). Its heyday was based on mass emigrations from the Lancashire mill towns by people who fitted those criteria. Itr's not coming back.
Frankly Sweden's approach seems to make an amount of sense to me, but only time will tell and I struggle to criticise individual nations for going other routes when most of them are doing so, and the scientific and health advice they have been receiving is advising a different course to that of Sweden. So where I will look for areas to criticise would be more about preparedness (and what was a reasonable expectation of preparedness, which is not the same thing), justification for initial responses and ability to ramp up in necessary areas. Many have not done some of those particularly well, but it may simply not have been possible in some cases, so it will be more complicated than just saying issue X was not ideal, ergo there was a failure. But there will clearly be avoidable failures in many countries, including ours. Something this complex cannot be responed to perfectly, and recognition of where it has been ok, bad, terrible or even great in individual areas will not devalue an overall assessment. I certainly think an assessment which sees comparitive successes as not even successes at all is unreasonable.
Time for daily exercise I think, while it is not raining.
The days of popping on and off planes like buses are, sadly, gone and we should get with the program.
You may very well be right, in which case international tourism also becomes an expensive luxury. Think of a Eurostar trip to Paris or Amsterdam as a reasonably affordable treat, but two weeks sunning oneself on Rhodes or the Algarve as something that most people on reasonably good incomes only do once every three or four years.
Britain's tourism sector might be able to make good most of the losses from staycationers, but the likes of Spain and Greece will be absolutely fucked.
I doubt that’s true. People and countries will just factor in the risk. Air travel boomed when air travel was still quite dangerous. And what came after ww1 and Spanish flu? The Roaring Twenties
That was a hundred years ago, and most people living in the 1920s were not enjoying upmarket lifestyles.
I think you have an accumulation of factors working against the travel and tourism sector coming out of all this. A lot of people are going to see their finances hit very hard and won't be able to afford to travel, or at any rate to travel abroad, for years. There will be the lingering folk memory of the disasters that have befallen a great many people - and not just cruise ship passengers - who found themselves stuck abroad at the wrong time. Air transportation is bound to become significantly dearer if much of the competition on air routes is removed through collapse or merger of airlines, and if aircraft are taking off half-empty (through lack of available customers and/or the imposition of social distancing measures.) And the environmental lobby loathes air travel above almost all else, and will want green taxes on aviation held in place and ideally extended.
In short, if there isn't a major ongoing recession in air travel and international tourism, even after the coronavirus is finally brought under control, then that might be considered something of a surprise?
The air travel and tourism industry is going to be totally screwed by this, there's going to be an awful lot of bankruptcies and redundancies across the sector. Not a good time to be an airline or a plane manufacturer.
There's going to be a general aversion to being very close to others for a long time to come, and that definitely includes queues to check in, clear the security theatre and sit in an economy-class seat for hours on end. Countries that rely on inbound tourism (Spain and Greece again) are going to suffer massively in the aftermath as people choose to holiday locally rather than fly abroad.
Business travel will also be down, as people have quickly adapted to remote working and realise that Skype and Webex can achieve the majority of what an in-person meeting can do, for a fraction of the cost. Conferences and exhibitions are also going to be very difficult for the next few years.
On the positive side, it will be good news for old, neglected seaside towns such as Blackpool and Southend.
I'd rather be in lockup than go to Blackpool ...
The great benefit of being in lockdown in Blackpool is that you wouldn't be allowed to go out to Blackpool.
Even that may not save you. Last time I stayed in a hotel in Blackpool, the couple (I say couple, there may have been several in there) in the next room were having the most extraordinarily loud sex....
Didn't TSE go there for a hen / stag / dirty weekend last year?
Responding to @Eadric as well. I was really thinking of the practical implementation. If going out of your front door means passing by a phallanx of self appointed janitors who, if seeing you not wearing a mask, will tell you to go home and put one on, and the same thing will happen when enter the metro etc, which is certainly the case in China, you will just put one on anyway and the police don't need to give you a fine. Same with a bunch of other social distancing regulations. Indeed, you get so conditioned to this, the actual checks don't even need to be there.
That's true of China, but it's not because of Confucianism or shame culture or something, it's because they're a police state.
And seeing how compliant the British have been with the government's slightly mysterious mix of fairly arbitrary requirements, don't you think they'd be obedient to the phalanx of self-appointed janitors? Assume for the sake of argument that the government was being clear that you should wear a mask, and The Queen and Piers Morgan were wearing them too.
That system is a lot older than communism. The same system is in place in Singapore albeit more institutionalised. Hong Kong is interesting because no-one trusts the government but everyone is doing the maximum social distancing anyway, so there's nothing for the authorities to enforce. Not sure if this supports our contradicts my theory.
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
It is worthy of note that our death rate is so high without the system being swamped outside a few hotspots.
I think the "stay at home if you are ill and don't seek medical help" policy is leading to cases presenting late in poorer condition than other countries, which do encourage early diagnosis and treatment. America may have the same problem for different reasons.
Yes, I wonder if this is British stoicism and reserve at work. Mustn’t grumble, never mind, keep calm and carry on, OK it might be a heart attack, I don’t want to make a fuss, let’s have a cup of tea, oh I’m dead.
A lot of Brits are like that, and in many ways it is admirable (and will serve us well in future) but it might mean people are dying at home who should really be in the (underused) A&Es.
A combination of that and a fear of setting foot in medical establishments at the moment. Partly because people think they're more likely to catch Covid-19 in a hospital than anywhere else, and partly because anybody who is hospitalised knows that they're completely on their own due to the near-total prohibition of visitors.
I think the only place you are more likely to catch C19 than a hospital is a care home. Having said that, if I suspected I had something life-threatening I would certainly phone 999.
Interesting to muse on what should have happened with care homes. As C19 is infectious when unsymptomatic it is arguable that even testing staff would have been effective. I'd have suggested completely locking them down at an early stage and requiring staff to sleep on the premises. Seems extreme, but I can't think of anything else that would have worked.
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
You don't think a more overwhelmed system would not have resulted in an even worse result? Things can be bad, even terrible, without everything that has happened having been bad or useless. It doesn't mean problems or mistakes are to be ignored, but unless you think things not being overwhelmed has literally had no effect I'm somewhat at a loss as to why you would respond in such a way, as you surely cannot believe that, even in a badly managed situation, everything has been bad.
I have repeatedly said I don’t think it has been all bad. I have this amazing idea that we ought to focus on fixing the mistakes. What I have come to realise is that many pbers would literally prefer to see people die than admit that the Conservative government has made serious mistakes.
Can you name these delusional PB-ers? With all respect, they appear to be in your still befogged and Brexity head.
Even HYUFD is expressing some doubts about the government’s handling of corona
There's also a big difference between suggesting with hindsight that the government may have planned better and taken decisions differently, and suggesting that the decisions were made the way they were out of deliberate malice.
No one has yet come up with a remotely plausible explanation why the government is refusing to cooperate in any way with the EU over the pandemic other than blind dogma. I seen a lot of “well it wouldn’t matter anyway”, and “the EU have been incompetent” and such like, but no explanation you might actually call rational. It seems very likely that people will die as a result of that decision.
The rest I will willingly accept is woeful incompetence rather than malice.
Because the governments strategy, as opposed to the EU strategy, is actually delivering the equipment?
You might not have noticed from Dubai, but the NHS is now just about out of PPE.
And so has most of the rest of europe, in many cases a fortnight ago.
From what I hear they are nearly out of certain types of PPE
As you say it seems from North Essex the fact that this is a worldwide problem seems to have missed him
Anyone paying attention would have seen the tricks the US are playing ignoring Trump's attempts to steal PPE destined and already paid for by other countries.
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
You don't think a more overwhelmed system would not have resulted in an even worse result? Things can be bad, even terrible, without everything that has happened having been bad or useless. It doesn't mean problems or mistakes are to be ignored, but unless you think things not being overwhelmed has literally had no effect I'm somewhat at a loss as to why you would respond in such a way, as you surely cannot believe that, even in a badly managed situation, everything has been bad.
I have repeatedly said I don’t think it has been all bad. I have this amazing idea that we ought to focus on fixing the mistakes. What I have come to realise is that many pbers would literally prefer to see people die than admit that the Conservative government has made serious mistakes.
Can you name these delusional PB-ers? With all respect, they appear to be in your still befogged and Brexity head.
Even HYUFD is expressing some doubts about the government’s handling of corona
There's also a big difference between suggesting with hindsight that the government may have planned better and taken decisions differently, and suggesting that the decisions were made the way they were out of deliberate malice.
No one has yet come up with a remotely plausible explanation why the government is refusing to cooperate in any way with the EU over the pandemic other than blind dogma. I seen a lot of “well it wouldn’t matter anyway”, and “the EU have been incompetent” and such like, but no explanation you might actually call rational. It seems very likely that people will die as a result of that decision.
The rest I will willingly accept is woeful incompetence rather than malice.
Because the governments strategy, as opposed to the EU strategy, is actually delivering the equipment?
You might not have noticed from Dubai, but the NHS is now just about out of PPE.
Tbf, that situation is the same all over Europe. The solution wasn't the EU procurement scheme which hasn't delivered, it was replicating the ventilator scheme which has delivered.
The response to Coronavirus is the biggest policy mistake by any British government ever in the history of British governments. Lord North can now relax, wherever he is.
I got called hysterical for saying that on here yesterday. Reading what BoE governor Andrew Bailey says, that the economy will take a 35% hit and struggle to recover from that hit, perhaps some might like to dial down the criticism.
Panic reigns. I see one cabinet minister is even briefing journalists that the government never wanted lockdown but the public did so they went with it.
So its the public's fault, its the virus's fault, its....er....Lets see....Donald Trump's fault....its China's fault, it's the data collectors fault, when in fact it is the government's fault
We are utterly at sea. Rudderless, leaderless, with a broken compass giving us false information and drifting towards an economic whirlpool.
Its actually worse than that, I think. I am struggling to find words for how bad it is.
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
You don't think a more overwhelmed system would not have resulted in an even worse result? Things can be bad, even terrible, without everything that has happened having been bad or useless. It doesn't mean problems or mistakes are to be ignored, but unless you think things not being overwhelmed has literally had no effect I'm somewhat at a loss as to why you would respond in such a way, as you surely cannot believe that, even in a badly managed situation, everything has been bad.
I have repeatedly said I don’t think it has been all bad. I have this amazing idea that we ought to focus on fixing the mistakes. What I have come to realise is that many pbers would literally prefer to see people die than admit that the Conservative government has made serious mistakes.
Can you name these delusional PB-ers? With all respect, they appear to be in your still befogged and Brexity head.
Even HYUFD is expressing some doubts about the government’s handling of corona
There's also a big difference between suggesting with hindsight that the government may have planned better and taken decisions differently, and suggesting that the decisions were made the way they were out of deliberate malice.
No one has yet come up with a remotely plausible explanation why the government is refusing to cooperate in any way with the EU over the pandemic other than blind dogma. I seen a lot of “well it wouldn’t matter anyway”, and “the EU have been incompetent” and such like, but no explanation you might actually call rational. It seems very likely that people will die as a result of that decision.
The rest I will willingly accept is woeful incompetence rather than malice.
Because the governments strategy, as opposed to the EU strategy, is actually delivering the equipment?
You might not have noticed from Dubai, but the NHS is now just about out of PPE.
So is everywhere else, and we have companies in the UK who can and are turning themselves over to manufacturing the stuff.
Any EU-led scheme is based on pooling of resources, with some bureaucrat in Brussels deciding which countries were prioritised for equipment, and with the UK almost certainly a net contributor in both money and equipment. Imagine the headlines if Barbour were making gowns in the UK, but they were being sent to Spain by the EU instead of given to the NHS.
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
You don't think a more overwhelmed system would not have resulted in an even worse result? Things can be bad, even terrible, without everything that has happened having been bad or useless. It doesn't mean problems or mistakes are to be ignored, but unless you think things not being overwhelmed has literally had no effect I'm somewhat at a loss as to why you would respond in such a way, as you surely cannot believe that, even in a badly managed situation, everything has been bad.
I have repeatedly said I don’t think it has been all bad. I have this amazing idea that we ought to focus on fixing the mistakes. What I have come to realise is that many pbers would literally prefer to see people die than admit that the Conservative government has made serious mistakes.
Can you name these delusional PB-ers? With all respect, they appear to be in your still befogged and Brexity head.
Even HYUFD is expressing some doubts about the government’s handling of corona
There's also a big difference between suggesting with hindsight that the government may have planned better and taken decisions differently, and suggesting that the decisions were made the way they were out of deliberate malice.
No one has yet come up with a remotely plausible explanation why the government is refusing to cooperate in any way with the EU over the pandemic other than blind dogma. I seen a lot of “well it wouldn’t matter anyway”, and “the EU have been incompetent” and such like, but no explanation you might actually call rational. It seems very likely that people will die as a result of that decision.
The rest I will willingly accept is woeful incompetence rather than malice.
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
You don't think a more overwhelmed system would not have resulted in an even worse result? Things can be bad, even terrible, without everything that has happened having been bad or useless. It doesn't mean problems or mistakes are to be ignored, but unless you think things not being overwhelmed has literally had no effect I'm somewhat at a loss as to why you would respond in such a way, as you surely cannot believe that, even in a badly managed situation, everything has been bad.
I have repeatedly said I don’t think it has been all bad. I have this amazing idea that we ought to focus on fixing the mistakes. What I have come to realise is that many pbers would literally prefer to see people die than admit that the Conservative government has made serious mistakes.
Can you name these delusional PB-ers? With all respect, they appear to be in your still befogged and Brexity head.
Even HYUFD is expressing some doubts about the government’s handling of corona
There's also a big difference between suggesting with hindsight that the government may have planned better and taken decisions differently, and suggesting that the decisions were made the way they were out of deliberate malice.
No one has yet come up with a remotely plausible explanation why the government is refusing to cooperate in any way with the EU over the pandemic other than blind dogma. I seen a lot of “well it wouldn’t matter anyway”, and “the EU have been incompetent” and such like, but no explanation you might actually call rational. It seems very likely that people will die as a result of that decision.
The rest I will willingly accept is woeful incompetence rather than malice.
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
You don't think a more overwhelmed system would not have resulted in an even worse result? Things can be bad, even terrible, without everything that has happened having been bad or useless. It doesn't mean problems or mistakes are to be ignored, but unless you think things not being overwhelmed has literally had no effect I'm somewhat at a loss as to why you would respond in such a way, as you surely cannot believe that, even in a badly managed situation, everything has been bad.
I have repeatedly said I don’t think it has been all bad. I have this amazing idea that we ought to focus on fixing the mistakes. What I have come to realise is that many pbers would literally prefer to see people die than admit that the Conservative government has made serious mistakes.
Can you name these delusional PB-ers? With all respect, they appear to be in your still befogged and Brexity head.
Even HYUFD is expressing some doubts about the government’s handling of corona
There's also a big difference between suggesting with hindsight that the government may have planned better and taken decisions differently, and suggesting that the decisions were made the way they were out of deliberate malice.
No one has yet come up with a remotely plausible explanation why the government is refusing to cooperate in any way with the EU over the pandemic other than blind dogma. I seen a lot of “well it wouldn’t matter anyway”, and “the EU have been incompetent” and such like, but no explanation you might actually call rational. It seems very likely that people will die as a result of that decision.
The rest I will willingly accept is woeful incompetence rather than malice.
Because the governments strategy, as opposed to the EU strategy, is actually delivering the equipment?
You might not have noticed from Dubai, but the NHS is now just about out of PPE.
And so has most of the rest of europe, in many cases a fortnight ago.
From what I hear they are nearly out of certain types of PPE
As you say it seems from North Essex the fact that this is a worldwide problem seems to have missed him
Anyone paying attention would have seen the tricks the US are playing ignoring Trump's attempts to steal PPE destined and already paid for by other countries.
Which is why you don’t turn your nose up at an alternative sourcing route. Unless you’re a crazed ideologue.
Frankly Sweden's approach seems to make an amount of sense to me, but only time will tell and I struggle to criticise individual nations for going other routes when most of them are doing so, and the scientific and health advice they have been receiving is advising a different course to that of Sweden.
Time for daily exercise I think, while it is not raining.
I saw somewhere earlier today that the approach isn't working. Sweden has had far more deaths per capita than Norway.
Mind you that's not to say it's the best approach as being frank we will only know what approaches actually worked in 3-5 years time if and when we have a vaccine / herd immunity and can look back and see what methods worked best long term.
The air travel and tourism industry is going to be totally screwed by this, there's going to be an awful lot of bankruptcies and redundancies across the sector. Not a good time to be an airline or a plane manufacturer.
There's going to be a general aversion to being very close to others for a long time to come, and that definitely includes queues to check in, clear the security theatre and sit in an economy-class seat for hours on end. Countries that rely on inbound tourism (Spain and Greece again) are going to suffer massively in the aftermath as people choose to holiday locally rather than fly abroad.
Business travel will also be down, as people have quickly adapted to remote working and realise that Skype and Webex can achieve the majority of what an in-person meeting can do, for a fraction of the cost. Conferences and exhibitions are also going to be very difficult for the next few years.
On the positive side, it will be good news for old, neglected seaside towns such as Blackpool and Southend.
Only for a couple of weeks. Once someone you know has been to Blackpool I suspect their stories will stop any friends, acquaintances and even mortal enemies from go there.
Blackpool only looks like a holiday destination to somebody who has never been to the Mediterranean (or even seen the Mediterranean on telly). Its heyday was based on mass emigrations from the Lancashire mill towns by people who fitted those criteria. Itr's not coming back.
Which is why you don’t turn your nose up at an alternative sourcing route. Unless you’re a crazed ideologue.
It's not an alternative sourcing route if quid pro quo is required and you need to share your sources within it.
Let's be blunt there is no such thing as alternative sources, there are only a limited number of factories with more being built. If you already purchase from all of the existing ones and know where the new ones are coming from there are no alternatives.
Now if the EU were creating new factories that would be alternative sources, but they aren't doing that they were just creating a large order by consolidating other orders and sending it to the existing manufacturers.
The air travel and tourism industry is going to be totally screwed by this, there's going to be an awful lot of bankruptcies and redundancies across the sector. Not a good time to be an airline or a plane manufacturer.
There's going to be a general aversion to being very close to others for a long time to come, and that definitely includes queues to check in, clear the security theatre and sit in an economy-class seat for hours on end. Countries that rely on inbound tourism (Spain and Greece again) are going to suffer massively in the aftermath as people choose to holiday locally rather than fly abroad.
Business travel will also be down, as people have quickly adapted to remote working and realise that Skype and Webex can achieve the majority of what an in-person meeting can do, for a fraction of the cost. Conferences and exhibitions are also going to be very difficult for the next few years.
On the positive side, it will be good news for old, neglected seaside towns such as Blackpool and Southend.
Only for a couple of weeks. Once someone you know has been to Blackpool I suspect their stories will stop any friends, acquaintances and even mortal enemies from go there.
Blackpool only looks like a holiday destination to somebody who has never been to the Mediterranean (or even seen the Mediterranean on telly). Its heyday was based on mass emigrations from the Lancashire mill towns by people who fitted those criteria. Itr's not coming back.
And Glasgow fortnight.
Global warming might see the very real return of the British seaside holiday, within our lifetimes. Cornwall is already super trendy.
I’ve noticed. Tuned back into the news yesterday to see that we’re moving into Italy, Spain territory. The difference with Germany is stark.
Hasn't that always been the case? Certainly it might have been hoped our numbers would end up better than Spain or Italy, but there was a lot of talk about being 1-2 weeks 'behind' them, so I thought it was less a case of us 'moving' into that territory as always being in it.
You’ll find that exactly the same pbers who think Britain is doing just fine now were particularly hostile three weeks ago to the idea that Britain was treading the same path as Italy and Spain.
Rather depends on what is meant by fine I should think. We're not doing uniquely badly, or facing unique problems in most cases and that is worthy of note in any assessment. But we, along with those two, do appear to be closer to the badder end of the spectrum unfortunately.
The resistance among the pb mainstream to the idea that Britain, which had the opportunity to learn from those two and failed to do so, has made any significant mistakes is extraordinary.
I would presume we've made different mistakes, considering our capacity seems to have been managed better, so we may well have learnt some things from it while still making mistakes.
I suppose helping people die in an orderly way counts as a win. I suspect they’d have preferred to have been kept alive.
You don't think a more overwhelmed system would not have resulted in an even worse result? Things can be bad, even terrible, without everything that has happened having been bad or useless. It doesn't mean problems or mistakes are to be ignored, but unless you think things not being overwhelmed has literally had no effect I'm somewhat at a loss as to why you would respond in such a way, as you surely cannot believe that, even in a badly managed situation, everything has been bad.
I have repeatedly said I don’t think it has been all bad. I have this amazing idea that we ought to focus on fixing the mistakes. What I have come to realise is that many pbers would literally prefer to see people die than admit that the Conservative government has made serious mistakes.
Why not just admit that your view on issues is via the prism of Remain/Leave.
Comments
I've found it hard to take Toby Young too seriously since seeing him on Question Time a long while ago (might be 10 years now) when he advocated letting everybody know what spies were up to because he didn't see the point of secrets. Think it was in relation to the Snowden affair.
Anyway, I must be off.
After all, pavements are, generally speaking, insufficiently wide to allow people to remain more than 2m apart when passing by or overtaking one another, and it's by no means always safe for one party to stray into the road to make up the difference.
Would be nice to see Ilfracombe have a renaissance though
https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2020/april/tfl-introduces-middle-door-only-boarding-across-the-london-bus-network
Why people are still following these narcissistic polemicists I have no idea.
https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1251283684193378304?s=19
There are those on "the left" who play the same game usually arguing Tories are in favour of killing off poor people which is absurd but always provokes a response.
The problem is liberals are far too nice, sensible and easy going to say anything provocative which is why there aren't many liberal provocateurs. Liberals are of course right about everything.
Assuming there is one covid19 death on top of recognised numbers and 1.5% mortality, we probably have between 1 and 2 million actual UK infections as a guess.
https://ourworldindata.org/
Where I differ from David H and MaxPB is that I don't think many people are paying much attention to the intricacies of public policy at the moment. In a crisis of this scale, be it war or public health, nominal support rises for the Govt, whichever Govt, because they're in power and seen to be doing their best with an awful situation. I also suspect the eventual triumph over the virus, and at some point this is likely to happen - either with a vaccine or better therapeutic treatments - will overshadow the individually problematic minutiae that an inquiry will doubtless identify.
There will be failings, no doubt - no government across the world will be without its errors. But most people are focusing on how to stay well, support their families, secure a supermarket home delivery slot, go and get their prescriptions (I am still staggered by just how many Brits seem to be on prescriptions, incidentally), and generally get by, day by day.
The media don't seem to understand that Westminster bubble stories, about 'who is in charge of making a decision about x, y and z', or 'why these guidelines have changed' are simply not resonating. This is why, I suspect, public support for the Govt is up, and trust in the media down. The public are also reacting against negativity at the moment, so partisan politics isn't going to work either - and as an aside I think Starmer needs to be careful not to keep carping from the sidelines for this exact reason.
https://twitter.com/ZackBornstein/status/1251281089772937216?s=09
Growth areas include:
construction and housing - many of the houses you see in 'older' suburbs are 1930s, country was building hundreds of thousands a year and a total of 2.8 million for the decade. The National grid comes online in 1933, with Battersea Power Station a visual reminder of the scale of the projects being undertaken at this time.
Chemistry and chemical engineering - just taking one specific example, you have the invention, design and development of artificial fabrics. Remember what the second syllable in nylon stands for.
Cars and other means of transport - the names Bluebird, Queen Mary and Mallard are still in the public mind 80, 90 years later.
Aviation
Electronics
Indeed, it would be the intersection of those last two topics that gave us a small but vital edge in the 1940s.
We had a stable government - while we know what was going on in mainland Europe (not just Germany, but Italy and Spain; meanwhile go and count the number of French PMs they had in the 1930s), the furthest the extremists got here was a jew-baiting Labour-splinter party.
While there are lessons to learn about the hotspots of deprivation and the collapse of certain industries, the view of 1930s Britain as a universally destitute place is a toxic myth.
And seeing how compliant the British have been with the government's slightly mysterious mix of fairly arbitrary requirements, don't you think they'd be obedient to the phalanx of self-appointed janitors? Assume for the sake of argument that the government was being clear that you should wear a mask, and The Queen and Piers Morgan were wearing them too.
I think the "stay at home if you are ill and don't seek medical help" policy is leading to cases presenting late in poorer condition than other countries, which do encourage early diagnosis and treatment. America may have the same problem for different reasons.
I confess, the more you explain your position the further away from what I thought it was it seems.
Surely it just pathetic incompetence.
Even that may not save you. Last time I stayed in a hotel in Blackpool, the couple (I say couple, there may have been several in there) in the next room were having the most extraordinarily loud sex....
we could simply be more conscientious or liberal than some others.
Even Piers Morgan is cottoning on to this. As I understand it there may be no distinction in Britain between dying of Corona and dying with Corona. It gets recorded as a Corona death.
And so we are making crucial policy decisions based on completely unreliable data.
The rest I will willingly accept is woeful incompetence rather than malice.
It was something of a surprise therefore as I scrolled down to see David Herdson's name appear at the foot of this morning's thread, especially as I found it difficult to disagree with a single word he had written.
Ventilators we have our own suppliers (and we actually have manufacturers in the UK) and the first EU procured ones seem to have a delivery date of July on them
PPE is all made abroad and there is nowhere in europe that makes it.
From memory those are the two areas I seem to think you were complaining about.
And the EU's response to Italy and Spain prior to last week is all the more reason to be glad to be aware from it.
Mr Meeks clearly has his own copy, because he knows exactly what we should be doing at every moment of every stage. Personally, I think he is being an arsehole for not sharing it....
Please let him be right.
As you say it seems from North Essex the fact that this is a worldwide problem seems to have missed him
Time for daily exercise I think, while it is not raining.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(20)30090-6/fulltext
Interesting to muse on what should have happened with care homes. As C19 is infectious when unsymptomatic it is arguable that even testing staff would have been effective. I'd have suggested completely locking them down at an early stage and requiring staff to sleep on the premises. Seems extreme, but I can't think of anything else that would have worked.
I got called hysterical for saying that on here yesterday. Reading what BoE governor Andrew Bailey says, that the economy will take a 35% hit and struggle to recover from that hit, perhaps some might like to dial down the criticism.
Panic reigns. I see one cabinet minister is even briefing journalists that the government never wanted lockdown but the public did so they went with it.
So its the public's fault, its the virus's fault, its....er....Lets see....Donald Trump's fault....its China's fault, it's the data collectors fault, when in fact it is the government's fault
We are utterly at sea. Rudderless, leaderless, with a broken compass giving us false information and drifting towards an economic whirlpool.
Its actually worse than that, I think. I am struggling to find words for how bad it is.
Any EU-led scheme is based on pooling of resources, with some bureaucrat in Brussels deciding which countries were prioritised for equipment, and with the UK almost certainly a net contributor in both money and equipment. Imagine the headlines if Barbour were making gowns in the UK, but they were being sent to Spain by the EU instead of given to the NHS.
Mind you that's not to say it's the best approach as being frank we will only know what approaches actually worked in 3-5 years time if and when we have a vaccine / herd immunity and can look back and see what methods worked best long term.
Let's be blunt there is no such thing as alternative sources, there are only a limited number of factories with more being built. If you already purchase from all of the existing ones and know where the new ones are coming from there are no alternatives.
Now if the EU were creating new factories that would be alternative sources, but they aren't doing that they were just creating a large order by consolidating other orders and sending it to the existing manufacturers.
Why not just admit that your view on issues is via the prism of Remain/Leave.