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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The government needs to sort out the PPE issues or it will be

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  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    737 UK wide Covid related deaths.

    We will only know on Wednesday whether thats a hopeful sign or not.

    Lets hope it is.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    Floater said:

    HYUFD said:

    737 UK wide Covid related deaths.

    200 down from yesterday, sad news for the relatives but UK curve starting to flatten which is good news
    Its the weekend

    Let us hope this is continued but it may not be.
    Have a look at the hospital stats - reproduced here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eTKeK9vRxgw0KhvKxPCaDrfaHnxQP-n9TsLzsEymviY/htmlview
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    The other thing about that Johnson video is that it makes very clear we were not being told the full truth about just how bad he was. If he hadn’t pulled through that may have become a very big problem.

    I posted an article earlier which set out why they played things down - and also why Raab looked so ill at the first press conference (he knew how bad things were).

    I happen to think they should have told the truth FWIW
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    eadric said:

    Boris will be an absolute folk hero now. The totemic leader who beat the bug. The Easter king, returned from the tomb

    https://twitter.com/borisjohnson/status/1249336590482243585?s=21

    Yes of all the days to rise up again Easter Sunday was surely the day for him to do it
    It is vomit inducing , he has two nurses round the clock yet the plebs are lucky if they get one for 6-8 patients. Was not much wrong with him if he only had a couple of days in hospital that is for sure.
    I think the reality probably lies somewhere between the second resurrection hyperbole, and your rather more cynical take on things, malcolm.
    I will defer to Dr Foxy, but I am pretty sure if you are ICU you get one or two nurses per bed as the intervention is so intense.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620
    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:
    Andrew Adonis is a prick.

    China is currently our only way of mitigating our PPE Gowns and testing crises and he agrees with PB Tory master strategists that we should be cutting lifelines
    Needs must at the moment and we shouldn't refuse PPE from anywhere. At the same time we should develop a strategic national reserve to manufacture our own stuff.
    Do you think Alok Sharma and his department have realised that ?

    I have my doubts.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited April 2020
    ydoethur said:

    Anyone who thinks this government isn’t wilfully incompetent hasn’t been paying attention. Prorogation and the Irish Backstop alone were conclusive. This is merely following a well established pattern.

    That’s slightly better than the Corbyn cultists, who are wilfully malign, stupid and incompetent, but not by a lot.

    Friendly note -

    I have noticed that whenever you make an astute criticism of this Conservative government or any member of it - which is pleasingly often - you almost always feel the need to tag on a negative aside at the end about Corbyn and the gang. It's as if you are afraid that if you don't you will be taken for a hard leftist.

    Well, you won't. That's the first thing. And the second thing is that Corbyn has gone. He's history. In fact, who is he? I've forgotten.

    So you don't need to do this, you really don't.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:
    Andrew Adonis is a prick.

    China is currently our only way of mitigating our PPE Gowns and testing crises and he agrees with PB Tory master strategists that we should be cutting lifelines
    Needs must at the moment and we shouldn't refuse PPE from anywhere. At the same time we should develop a strategic national reserve to manufacture our own stuff.
    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/finland_chinese_face_masks_fail_tests/11298914

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Stocky said:

    eadric said:

    Boris will be an absolute folk hero now. The totemic leader who beat the bug. The Easter king, returned from the tomb

    https://twitter.com/borisjohnson/status/1249336590482243585?s=21

    Very well done, a well-pitched speech, emotional. Thanking the nurses by name. He looks OK, but needs some smaller clothes. Jacket looks a tad baggy, face is drawn.
    Not sure I would recommend ICU / pneumonia over weight watchers...I lost a stone in 10 days when I had it a couple of years ago.
    He looks exactly as you would expect a man to look, who had a brush with death. He needs to go away and lie down for a fortnight. And very slowly go back to work’

    There are already nutters on twitter saying his reappearance means it was all a hoax
    I doubt they are nutters, how many are in and out in 2 days with this.
    Malc, that's daft.
    he is milking it
    He's certainly leaning on it heavily to make his point about the NHS, but that is not necessarily a bad thing.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    eadric said:

    Boris will be an absolute folk hero now. The totemic leader who beat the bug. The Easter king, returned from the tomb

    https://twitter.com/borisjohnson/status/1249336590482243585?s=21

    Yes of all the days to rise up again Easter Sunday was surely the day for him to do it
    It is vomit inducing , he has two nurses round the clock yet the plebs are lucky if they get one for 6-8 patients. Was not much wrong with him if he only had a couple of days in hospital that is for sure.
    I think the reality probably lies somewhere between the second resurrection hyperbole, and your rather more cynical take on things, malcolm.
    It is extremely bad taste to boast about having two nurses round the clock when lots of people's loved ones are dying in wards with hardly any or in nursing homes etc. The clown must know not everybody gets such VIP treatment. A bit of humility rather than triumphalism by Tories might be a bit more circumspect. Comparisons on here to him being Jesus are particularly nasty.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,436

    HYUFD said:
    Andrew Adonis is a prick.

    China is currently our only way of mitigating our PPE Gowns and testing crises and he agrees with PB Tory master strategists that we should be cutting lifelines
    No it isn't. PPE is a textile/seamstress product. It can be made easily in the UK with the right patterns, and even more easily and cheaply in India if we want to go that route.
    In the short-term it doesn't matter where we get PPE from, as long as we get it. We can worry about ensuring we have a strategic capability to supply ourselves once the immediate crisis has passed - and the same goes for ensuring we aren't overly reliant on totalitarian dictatorships for anything of importance.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    RobD said:

    eadric said:

    Boris will be an absolute folk hero now. The totemic leader who beat the bug. The Easter king, returned from the tomb

    https://twitter.com/borisjohnson/status/1249336590482243585?s=21

    Boris!
    That is an awesome video!
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    HYUFD said:
    Andrew Adonis is a prick.

    China is currently our only way of mitigating our PPE Gowns and testing crises and he agrees with PB Tory master strategists that we should be cutting lifelines
    With sub standard gear?

    We will take what we need for now - but, (like in a bunch of things) life will not go back to normal afterwards, that must include our dealings with China.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    malcolmg said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    eadric said:

    Boris will be an absolute folk hero now. The totemic leader who beat the bug. The Easter king, returned from the tomb

    https://twitter.com/borisjohnson/status/1249336590482243585?s=21

    Yes of all the days to rise up again Easter Sunday was surely the day for him to do it
    It is vomit inducing , he has two nurses round the clock yet the plebs are lucky if they get one for 6-8 patients. Was not much wrong with him if he only had a couple of days in hospital that is for sure.
    I think the reality probably lies somewhere between the second resurrection hyperbole, and your rather more cynical take on things, malcolm.
    It is extremely bad taste to boast about having two nurses round the clock when lots of people's loved ones are dying in wards with hardly any or in nursing homes etc. The clown must know not everybody gets such VIP treatment. A bit of humility rather than triumphalism by Tories might be a bit more circumspect. Comparisons on here to him being Jesus are particularly nasty.
    Unlike every syllable you write, which in the alternate reality you occupy you must imagine are not nasty at all.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited April 2020

    HYUFD said:
    Andrew Adonis is a prick.

    China is currently our only way of mitigating our PPE Gowns and testing crises and he agrees with PB Tory master strategists that we should be cutting lifelines
    Germany would actually be a better source for those and if the Chinese government had shut wet markets and improved lab safety we would not need them in the first place
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    I thought Johnson was very good, and I won't be suspected of being about to vote Tory. There are times when people need populist inspiration and this was excellently done.

    Politically speaking, I fear that Tories looking forward to more quiet dimantling of the NHS are going to have to wait a while.

    His weakness is detail, and he badly needs some competent people organising PPE equipment supply and other logistical challenges, as TSE says. Hancock and Sharma mean well but I don't honestly feel any confidence in them. Gove is the obvious man but although supposedly in a coordinating role we've not seen much of him yet. Time to put him formally in charge of the logistical effort.



  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    eadric said:

    Boris will be an absolute folk hero now. The totemic leader who beat the bug. The Easter king, returned from the tomb

    https://twitter.com/borisjohnson/status/1249336590482243585?s=21

    Yes of all the days to rise up again Easter Sunday was surely the day for him to do it
    It is vomit inducing , he has two nurses round the clock yet the plebs are lucky if they get one for 6-8 patients. Was not much wrong with him if he only had a couple of days in hospital that is for sure.
    I think the reality probably lies somewhere between the second resurrection hyperbole, and your rather more cynical take on things, malcolm.
    I will defer to Dr Foxy, but I am pretty sure if you are ICU you get one or two nurses per bed as the intervention is so intense.
    Of course.
    I think malcom’s point was that the average punter in Johnson’s condition might not have ended up in the ICU. It’s an argument I’m not going to get into any further, as it seems pretty pointless either way.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    So can Keith Stammer be a sensible choice for PM as he hasn’t had Covid ?

    Too big a risk surely ?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Stocky said:

    eadric said:

    Boris will be an absolute folk hero now. The totemic leader who beat the bug. The Easter king, returned from the tomb

    https://twitter.com/borisjohnson/status/1249336590482243585?s=21

    Very well done, a well-pitched speech, emotional. Thanking the nurses by name. He looks OK, but needs some smaller clothes. Jacket looks a tad baggy, face is drawn.
    Not sure I would recommend ICU / pneumonia over weight watchers...I lost a stone in 10 days when I had it a couple of years ago.
    He looks exactly as you would expect a man to look, who had a brush with death. He needs to go away and lie down for a fortnight. And very slowly go back to work’

    There are already nutters on twitter saying his reappearance means it was all a hoax
    I doubt they are nutters, how many are in and out in 2 days with this.
    Malc, that's daft.
    he is milking it
    He's certainly leaning on it heavily to make his point about the NHS, but that is not necessarily a bad thing.
    I found it distasteful and the Tory utterings are bordering on obscene.
    No class and no empathy with the hundreds of people losing loved ones daily. Nasty nasty people and we see the worst of them on here.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482

    HYUFD said:
    Andrew Adonis is a prick.

    China is currently our only way of mitigating our PPE Gowns and testing crises and he agrees with PB Tory master strategists that we should be cutting lifelines
    No it isn't. PPE is a textile/seamstress product. It can be made easily in the UK with the right patterns, and even more easily and cheaply in India if we want to go that route.
    In the short-term it doesn't matter where we get PPE from, as long as we get it. We can worry about ensuring we have a strategic capability to supply ourselves once the immediate crisis has passed - and the same goes for ensuring we aren't overly reliant on totalitarian dictatorships for anything of importance.
    I agree, but from what I gather, there are plenty of mothballed textile factories in the UK ready to man the bobbins. Not to mention active (till recently) ones that could switch production. It would ensure speed and that product was up to spec and not hijacked on the way.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    Very good video by Bozza.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    edited April 2020
    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Stocky said:

    eadric said:

    Boris will be an absolute folk hero now. The totemic leader who beat the bug. The Easter king, returned from the tomb

    https://twitter.com/borisjohnson/status/1249336590482243585?s=21

    Very well done, a well-pitched speech, emotional. Thanking the nurses by name. He looks OK, but needs some smaller clothes. Jacket looks a tad baggy, face is drawn.
    Not sure I would recommend ICU / pneumonia over weight watchers...I lost a stone in 10 days when I had it a couple of years ago.
    He looks exactly as you would expect a man to look, who had a brush with death. He needs to go away and lie down for a fortnight. And very slowly go back to work’

    There are already nutters on twitter saying his reappearance means it was all a hoax
    I doubt they are nutters, how many are in and out in 2 days with this.
    Hmmm. Would be interesting to know the figures.

    Of course, if the last few days were to have been, theoretically, the product of some grand conspiracy to create a PR opportunity for the Prime Minister, then all the staff in the hospital would also have had to be in on it. Otherwise, if he had never been admitted in the first place then they would say he hadn't been in there, and if they'd only been plying him with paracetamol then they would also say that. What they would have to gain in return for acquiescence to such a madcap enterprise, God alone knows.

    On balance it seems to me that Boris Johnson probably was seriously ill, and not locked away in a secret location going through a regime of starvation dieting and extended spells in a sauna to prepare for his reappearance.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    I see @TOPPING is back calling for dictatorship in the name of “efficiency” on the previous thread. We have a great decision making process. Minor decisions can be made by ministers. Major decisions get referred to Cabinet. Normally, if there is a particularly controversial decision, the PM can force his/her opinion through by abusing the sum-up procedure (Thatcher’s favourite tactic) or by directly investing political capital.

    At the moment it is all working as normal. There haven’t been any controversial decisions since BJ went into isolation. The next one - the review of lockdown - isn’t controversial as it will be an extension. May be the science will be less clear in 4 weeks time when there is the next review, in which case hopefully Boris will be better by then.

    @BluestBlue re: property owners without the cash pay a property tax, sorry but these are not normal times. Those with wealth must contribute more - taxing property is the easiest way to do that (and do a roll up as a first lien if needed). But I would make it explicitly to pay back the “Corona debt” - a solidarity charge if you like - and not have it as part of normal government spending. I don’t have a problem per @MaxPB charging more for second homes
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Floater said:

    HYUFD said:
    Andrew Adonis is a prick.

    China is currently our only way of mitigating our PPE Gowns and testing crises and he agrees with PB Tory master strategists that we should be cutting lifelines
    With sub standard gear?

    We will take what we need for now - but, (like in a bunch of things) life will not go back to normal afterwards, that must include our dealings with China.
    Lets hope not.

    Lets hope we get some manufacturing capacity of critical things back to the UK after this harsh lesson.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205

    Very good video by Bozza.

    Yes, a big relief he's out - on all sorts of levels.
    He still has a great deal of personal authority and the stay at home message will be listened to far more coming from him in a way that Raab simply can't come near.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    eadric said:

    Boris will be an absolute folk hero now. The totemic leader who beat the bug. The Easter king, returned from the tomb

    https://twitter.com/borisjohnson/status/1249336590482243585?s=21

    Yes of all the days to rise up again Easter Sunday was surely the day for him to do it
    It is vomit inducing , he has two nurses round the clock yet the plebs are lucky if they get one for 6-8 patients. Was not much wrong with him if he only had a couple of days in hospital that is for sure.
    I think the reality probably lies somewhere between the second resurrection hyperbole, and your rather more cynical take on things, malcolm.
    I will defer to Dr Foxy, but I am pretty sure if you are ICU you get one or two nurses per bed as the intervention is so intense.
    Recently downrated from 1:1 to 1:6

    https://www.hsj.co.uk/exclusive-intensive-care-staffing-ratios-dramatically-diluted/7027214.article
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250
    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Anyone who thinks this government isn’t wilfully incompetent hasn’t been paying attention. Prorogation and the Irish Backstop alone were conclusive. This is merely following a well established pattern.

    That’s slightly better than the Corbyn cultists, who are wilfully malign, stupid and incompetent, but not by a lot.

    Friendly note -

    I have noticed that whenever you make an astute criticism of this Conservative government or any member of it - which is pleasingly often - you almost always feel the need to tag on a negative aside at the end about Corbyn and the gang. It's as if you are afraid that if you don't you will be taken for a hard leftist.

    Well, you won't. That's the first thing. And the second thing is that Corbyn has gone. He's history. In fact, who is he? I've forgotten.

    So you don't need to do this, you really don't.
    I'm not clear that "wilfully incompetent" has any meaning whatsoever.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,932
    malcolmg said:

    Here is HMG's latest position on PPE, published 10/4 aka Good Friday.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-sets-out-plan-for-national-effort-on-ppe

    As you can see everything is in hand and there is a new website written by the army that will be launched in the next few weeks.

    That is great things will be better in a month or so, you have reassured us they are doing a great job
    From that gov.uk paper, it is hard to fault (at least at first glance) any of what HMG is doing but it is the complete lack of urgency that is shocking. Boris needs to read this thread's header and "action this day" a new appointment.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,814
    I’m finding a lot of the comments on here today about someone who has been in ICU very depressing and cold. Might be time for me to take another break from PB.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,708
    My late Mum was in ICU for several days two years ago.

    It was one nurse for every two patients throughout.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    MattW said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Anyone who thinks this government isn’t wilfully incompetent hasn’t been paying attention. Prorogation and the Irish Backstop alone were conclusive. This is merely following a well established pattern.

    That’s slightly better than the Corbyn cultists, who are wilfully malign, stupid and incompetent, but not by a lot.

    Friendly note -

    I have noticed that whenever you make an astute criticism of this Conservative government or any member of it - which is pleasingly often - you almost always feel the need to tag on a negative aside at the end about Corbyn and the gang. It's as if you are afraid that if you don't you will be taken for a hard leftist.

    Well, you won't. That's the first thing. And the second thing is that Corbyn has gone. He's history. In fact, who is he? I've forgotten.

    So you don't need to do this, you really don't.
    I'm not clear that "wilfully incompetent" has any meaning whatsoever.
    Determined not to question their own possible shortcomings ?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878

    Andy_JS said:

    What's the evidence for asserting the UK may be the worst-affected country in Europe?

    The lack of testing, Sir Jeremy Farrar advised the German government to test, test, test, and they listened to him.

    Now compare our stats to Germany's?
    Has anybody ever seen me and TSE in the same room?
    Yes, several PBers did at a meet up in Yorkshire, or was it London?
    I think the last one in London was May 2017.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Charles said:

    I see @TOPPING is back calling for dictatorship in the name of “efficiency” on the previous thread. We have a great decision making process. Minor decisions can be made by ministers. Major decisions get referred to Cabinet. Normally, if there is a particularly controversial decision, the PM can force his/her opinion through by abusing the sum-up procedure (Thatcher’s favourite tactic) or by directly investing political capital.

    At the moment it is all working as normal. There haven’t been any controversial decisions since BJ went into isolation. The next one - the review of lockdown - isn’t controversial as it will be an extension. May be the science will be less clear in 4 weeks time when there is the next review, in which case hopefully Boris will be better by then.

    @BluestBlue re: property owners without the cash pay a property tax, sorry but these are not normal times. Those with wealth must contribute more - taxing property is the easiest way to do that (and do a roll up as a first lien if needed). But I would make it explicitly to pay back the “Corona debt” - a solidarity charge if you like - and not have it as part of normal government spending. I don’t have a problem per @MaxPB charging more for second homes

    I see you have misunderstood what I said. Which is strange because it was fairly straightforward.

    The PM is off games for the foreseeable future. You said of course he would resign if he were going to be unfit for six months, presumably because you think we are not being governed optimally. So as we are not being governed optimally, when should he step down?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Andrew Adonis is a prick.

    China is currently our only way of mitigating our PPE Gowns and testing crises and he agrees with PB Tory master strategists that we should be cutting lifelines
    Germany would actually be a better source for those and if the Chinese government had shut wet markets and improved lab safety we would not need them in the first place
    Only one manufacturer of the Gowns we need in the whole world according to BBC this morning (Chris Hopson Head of NHS Providers)

    "China," you know the Country various posters on here wanted to burn bridges with 10 days ago

    Apparently we are flying a plane full every day but still not sufficient and not always of sufficient quality.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Stocky said:

    eadric said:

    Boris will be an absolute folk hero now. The totemic leader who beat the bug. The Easter king, returned from the tomb

    https://twitter.com/borisjohnson/status/1249336590482243585?s=21

    Very well done, a well-pitched speech, emotional. Thanking the nurses by name. He looks OK, but needs some smaller clothes. Jacket looks a tad baggy, face is drawn.
    Not sure I would recommend ICU / pneumonia over weight watchers...I lost a stone in 10 days when I had it a couple of years ago.
    He looks exactly as you would expect a man to look, who had a brush with death. He needs to go away and lie down for a fortnight. And very slowly go back to work’

    There are already nutters on twitter saying his reappearance means it was all a hoax
    I doubt they are nutters, how many are in and out in 2 days with this.
    Malc, that's daft.
    he is milking it
    He's certainly leaning on it heavily to make his point about the NHS, but that is not necessarily a bad thing.
    I found it distasteful and the Tory utterings are bordering on obscene.
    No class and no empathy with the hundreds of people losing loved ones daily. Nasty nasty people and we see the worst of them on here.
    True . He’s a folk hero for doing what . He had round the clock care and recovered . He didn’t single handedly find a vaccine !

    Some of the deference now shown to him is quite nauseating.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Andy_JS said:

    What's the evidence for asserting the UK may be the worst-affected country in Europe?

    It’s a US mostly-mathematical model which makes some of the mistakes we saw on here in the early days from Henrietta and Eadric. The projections reflect the daily percentage increases in death rate that the Uk has seen recently, in proportion to the base of deaths to date. Hopefully, the recent catch up reported in our data as it began to cover a wider range of deaths, coupled with the soon to be seen effect of our lockdown, will render the US projection overblown.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    edited April 2020

    I’m finding a lot of the comments on here today about someone who has been in ICU very depressing and cold. Might be time for me to take another break from PB.

    No problems with the eulogisers?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Andrew Adonis is a prick.

    China is currently our only way of mitigating our PPE Gowns and testing crises and he agrees with PB Tory master strategists that we should be cutting lifelines
    Germany would actually be a better source for those and if the Chinese government had shut wet markets and improved lab safety we would not need them in the first place
    Only one manufacturer of the Gowns we need in the whole world according to BBC this morning (Chris Hopson Head of NHS Providers)

    "China," you know the Country various posters on here wanted to burn bridges with 10 days ago

    Apparently we are flying a plane full every day but still not sufficient and not always of sufficient quality.
    https://twitter.com/RepBryanSteil/status/1248632401674280960?s=20
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    That is a great video from Boris Johnson. Eloquent, strong, empathetic, fluent. Don't think I've seen better. He looks OK too.

    It's literally incredible to think that he was at death's door just a couple of days ago.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Scott_xP said:
    Right question

    Wrong timing

    Lets get through the health crisis first.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Anyone who thinks this government isn’t wilfully incompetent hasn’t been paying attention. Prorogation and the Irish Backstop alone were conclusive. This is merely following a well established pattern.

    That’s slightly better than the Corbyn cultists, who are wilfully malign, stupid and incompetent, but not by a lot.

    Friendly note -

    I have noticed that whenever you make an astute criticism of this Conservative government or any member of it - which is pleasingly often - you almost always feel the need to tag on a negative aside at the end about Corbyn and the gang. It's as if you are afraid that if you don't you will be taken for a hard leftist.

    Well, you won't. That's the first thing. And the second thing is that Corbyn has gone. He's history. In fact, who is he? I've forgotten.

    So you don't need to do this, you really don't.
    It’s enormous exasperation at the shit sandwich I had to eat at the last election, when I abstained for the first time in my life.

    It’s also cathartic in reminding me why, in spite of everything, my overwhelming emotion the day after the election was one of relief, mingled with bewilderment.

    As for gone and not coming back - I will believe that when Corbyn, Macdonell, Abbott, Burgon, Lavery and Butler have left politics, and not before. Starmer’s interview was good, his front bench much less so.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    kinabalu said:

    That is a great video from Boris Johnson. Eloquent, strong, empathetic, fluent. Don't think I've seen better. He looks OK too.

    It's literally incredible to think that he was at death's door just a couple of days ago.

    I think that's a particularly nasty comment given what he's just been through.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,814

    I’m finding a lot of the comments on here today about someone who has been in ICU very depressing and cold. Might be time for me to take another break from PB.

    No problems with the eulogisers?
    I don’t think someone getting better deserves deference purely for being ill. On a basic human level I am just pleased he is better and think it’s a shame that this is being politicised at all.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424

    Andy_JS said:

    What's the evidence for asserting the UK may be the worst-affected country in Europe?

    The lack of testing, Sir Jeremy Farrar advised the German government to test, test, test, and they listened to him.

    Now compare our stats to Germany's?
    Has anybody ever seen me and TSE in the same room?
    Well, not recently. It would be a serious breach of lockdown.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,932

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Andrew Adonis is a prick.

    China is currently our only way of mitigating our PPE Gowns and testing crises and he agrees with PB Tory master strategists that we should be cutting lifelines
    Germany would actually be a better source for those and if the Chinese government had shut wet markets and improved lab safety we would not need them in the first place
    Only one manufacturer of the Gowns we need in the whole world according to BBC this morning (Chris Hopson Head of NHS Providers)

    "China," you know the Country various posters on here wanted to burn bridges with 10 days ago

    Apparently we are flying a plane full every day but still not sufficient and not always of sufficient quality.
    Find a British factory that can knock them out. Order a squillion. Pay the Chinese company for a squillion items to cover IP licensing. Or something like that.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    At first glance this look a deal more promising than hydroxychloroquine....

    Compassionate Use of Remdesivir for Patients with Severe Covid-19
    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2007016
    Of the 61 patients who received at least one dose of remdesivir, data from 8 could not be analyzed (including 7 patients with no post-treatment data and 1 with a dosing error). Of the 53 patients whose data were analyzed, 22 were in the United States, 22 in Europe or Canada, and 9 in Japan. At baseline, 30 patients (57%) were receiving mechanical ventilation and 4 (8%) were receiving extracorporeal membrane oxygenation. During a median follow-up of 18 days, 36 patients (68%) had an improvement in oxygen-support class, including 17 of 30 patients (57%) receiving mechanical ventilation who were extubated. A total of 25 patients (47%) were discharged, and 7 patients (13%) died; mortality was 18% (6 of 34) among patients receiving invasive ventilation and 5% (1 of 19) among those not receiving invasive ventilation.

    Will need a randomised trial to confirm its effectiveness, of course. And fortunately doesn’t have the hype surrounding the malaria drug, so that is happening.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited April 2020
    ...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    eadric said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    That is a great video from Boris Johnson. Eloquent, strong, empathetic, fluent. Don't think I've seen better. He looks OK too.

    It's literally incredible to think that he was at death's door just a couple of days ago.

    I think that's a particularly nasty comment given what he's just been through.
    I think you’re misreading kinabulu
    We get that he doesn't like Boris but now is not the time.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:
    Andrew Adonis is a prick.

    China is currently our only way of mitigating our PPE Gowns and testing crises and he agrees with PB Tory master strategists that we should be cutting lifelines
    Needs must at the moment and we shouldn't refuse PPE from anywhere. At the same time we should develop a strategic national reserve to manufacture our own stuff.
    Do you think Alok Sharma and his department have realised that ?

    I have my doubts.
    I wouldn't trust Alok Sharma to run a bath !
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited April 2020
    eadric said:

    Boris will be an absolute folk hero now. The totemic leader who beat the bug. The Easter king, returned from the tomb

    https://twitter.com/borisjohnson/status/1249336590482243585?s=21

    Could be impossible for Labour to outflank Boris on the NHS now
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Andrew Adonis is a prick.

    China is currently our only way of mitigating our PPE Gowns and testing crises and he agrees with PB Tory master strategists that we should be cutting lifelines
    Germany would actually be a better source for those and if the Chinese government had shut wet markets and improved lab safety we would not need them in the first place
    Only one manufacturer of the Gowns we need in the whole world according to BBC this morning (Chris Hopson Head of NHS Providers)

    "China," you know the Country various posters on here wanted to burn bridges with 10 days ago

    Apparently we are flying a plane full every day but still not sufficient and not always of sufficient quality.
    Find a British factory that can knock them out. Order a squillion. Pay the Chinese company for a squillion items to cover IP licensing. Or something like that.
    I doubt N95 respirators for instance are covered by patent. If they are we should ignore under national emergency laws.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    HYUFD said:
    Those figures beggar belief. Who are these muppets?

    I mean, come on, seriously? 77% think Trump is not being blackmailed by the Russians?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,932
    edited April 2020
    Deleted
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Andrew Adonis is a prick.

    China is currently our only way of mitigating our PPE Gowns and testing crises and he agrees with PB Tory master strategists that we should be cutting lifelines
    Germany would actually be a better source for those and if the Chinese government had shut wet markets and improved lab safety we would not need them in the first place
    Only one manufacturer of the Gowns we need in the whole world according to BBC this morning (Chris Hopson Head of NHS Providers)

    "China," you know the Country various posters on here wanted to burn bridges with 10 days ago

    Apparently we are flying a plane full every day but still not sufficient and not always of sufficient quality.
    Find a British factory that can knock them out. Order a squillion. Pay the Chinese company for a squillion items to cover IP licensing. Or something like that.
    Chris Hopson says its too difficult short term for gowns it is possible for most other PPE

    I cant find a link it was 5 live at about 8.20 am this morning.

    He basically said Govt and NHS were doing their best but we had almost exhausted the gown supply in whole of UK and currently only one place to get more from
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    @DecrepiterJohnL

    That’s the point. He wouldn’t have done. He would just have picked them out of the road declaring that they should be allowed freedom of self expression and then said if anyone asked why there were a feckload of holes everywhere that it was the fault of evil businessmen charging too much for scrap, but not to worry as everyone who drives is an evil Tory anyway.

    (Yes, I am exaggerating for comic effect. As I hope were you in your deleted comment.)
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Nigelb said:

    At first glance this look a deal more promising than hydroxychloroquine....

    Compassionate Use of Remdesivir for Patients with Severe Covid-19
    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2007016
    Of the 61 patients who received at least one dose of remdesivir, data from 8 could not be analyzed (including 7 patients with no post-treatment data and 1 with a dosing error). Of the 53 patients whose data were analyzed, 22 were in the United States, 22 in Europe or Canada, and 9 in Japan. At baseline, 30 patients (57%) were receiving mechanical ventilation and 4 (8%) were receiving extracorporeal membrane oxygenation. During a median follow-up of 18 days, 36 patients (68%) had an improvement in oxygen-support class, including 17 of 30 patients (57%) receiving mechanical ventilation who were extubated. A total of 25 patients (47%) were discharged, and 7 patients (13%) died; mortality was 18% (6 of 34) among patients receiving invasive ventilation and 5% (1 of 19) among those not receiving invasive ventilation.

    Will need a randomised trial to confirm its effectiveness, of course. And fortunately doesn’t have the hype surrounding the malaria drug, so that is happening.

    Mortality of 18% is promising? It might be, but you'd need some comparables. Which should be readily available - so many people are dying of this that it should be easy to find a matching cohort who weren't given remdesivir and compare outcomes.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Andrew Adonis is a prick.

    China is currently our only way of mitigating our PPE Gowns and testing crises and he agrees with PB Tory master strategists that we should be cutting lifelines
    Germany would actually be a better source for those and if the Chinese government had shut wet markets and improved lab safety we would not need them in the first place
    Only one manufacturer of the Gowns we need in the whole world according to BBC this morning (Chris Hopson Head of NHS Providers)

    "China," you know the Country various posters on here wanted to burn bridges with 10 days ago

    Apparently we are flying a plane full every day but still not sufficient and not always of sufficient quality.
    Find a British factory that can knock them out. Order a squillion. Pay the Chinese company for a squillion items to cover IP licensing. Or something like that.
    I doubt N95 respirators for instance are covered by patent. If they are we should ignore under national emergency laws.
    GOWNS GOWNS GOWNS we only have a couple of days left UK wide
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    I’m finding a lot of the comments on here today about someone who has been in ICU very depressing and cold. Might be time for me to take another break from PB.

    No problems with the eulogisers?
    One can barely conceive the eulogies you'll be delivering to Salmond or Sturgeon if they came through a similar hell successfully, so why not use your imagination?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    The story for the Republicans in Florida just keeps getting worse...

    https://twitter.com/jkbjournalist/status/1249138171117539328
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Stocky said:

    eadric said:

    Boris will be an absolute folk hero now. The totemic leader who beat the bug. The Easter king, returned from the tomb

    https://twitter.com/borisjohnson/status/1249336590482243585?s=21

    Very well done, a well-pitched speech, emotional. Thanking the nurses by name. He looks OK, but needs some smaller clothes. Jacket looks a tad baggy, face is drawn.
    Not sure I would recommend ICU / pneumonia over weight watchers...I lost a stone in 10 days when I had it a couple of years ago.
    He looks exactly as you would expect a man to look, who had a brush with death. He needs to go away and lie down for a fortnight. And very slowly go back to work’

    There are already nutters on twitter saying his reappearance means it was all a hoax
    I doubt they are nutters, how many are in and out in 2 days with this.
    Hmmm. Would be interesting to know the figures.

    Of course, if the last few days were to have been, theoretically, the product of some grand conspiracy to create a PR opportunity for the Prime Minister, then all the staff in the hospital would also have had to be in on it. Otherwise, if he had never been admitted in the first place then they would say he hadn't been in there, and if they'd only been plying him with paracetamol then they would also say that. What they would have to gain in return for acquiescence to such a madcap enterprise, God alone knows.

    On balance it seems to me that Boris Johnson probably was seriously ill, and not locked away in a secret location going through a regime of starvation dieting and extended spells in a sauna to prepare for his reappearance.
    He may have been ill as was obvious to see on the Thursday prior to him going to hospital , but he got VIP treatment and given recovered in a couple of days , no normal joe public would have seen ICU with that prognosis. I would bet that any normal person would not have even seen the inside of the hospital.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    I’m finding a lot of the comments on here today about someone who has been in ICU very depressing and cold. Might be time for me to take another break from PB.

    Don't hit your arse on the door on the way out loser.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Government is working to the strategy that the PM set out while Boris is spending an indeterminate time recuperating.

    What if the strategy needs to change?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    MikeL said:

    My late Mum was in ICU for several days two years ago.

    It was one nurse for every two patients throughout.

    exactly not two standing beside your bed day and night and in lower wards if lucky it is 1 to six - eight and run off their feet.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    isam said:

    eadric said:

    Boris will be an absolute folk hero now. The totemic leader who beat the bug. The Easter king, returned from the tomb

    https://twitter.com/borisjohnson/status/1249336590482243585?s=21

    Could be impossible for Labour to outflank Boris on the NHS now
    Depends upon what happens in the coming months, and how generous the Government is prepared to be in funding health spending in the longer term.

    If issues like PPE make the Government look like it doesn't care enough or is too incompetent to protect NHS staff then it will be very damaging.

    In the long run, if Government won't tack left on tax-and-spend and hose the NHS (and, for that matter, social care) down with lots and lots of money, then there will still be plenty of room for Keir Starmer to offer to do it instead.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    TOPPING said:

    Government is working to the strategy that the PM set out while Boris is spending an indeterminate time recuperating.

    What if the strategy needs to change?

    Why would 'sit on arse until the peak passes' need to change?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    No problems with the eulogisers?

    Exactly. The one triggers the other.

    The prosaic probable truth is that they did not take any chances whatsoever with him, therefore ICU came into play at a point when your average patient would be monitored outside of it, and the human resource employed in his care was at the very upper end of what is feasible.

    All of which (for me) is absolutely fine and reasonable. He is the PM.

    But if somebody starts tearing up and telling me what a fucking messiah he is, then I'm going to be sorely tempted to reply with, "Don't be a softhead, he was barely ill, guy's clearly milking it for all he's worth."

    And so it goes.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    eadric said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Stocky said:

    eadric said:

    Boris will be an absolute folk hero now. The totemic leader who beat the bug. The Easter king, returned from the tomb

    https://twitter.com/borisjohnson/status/1249336590482243585?s=21

    Very well done, a well-pitched speech, emotional. Thanking the nurses by name. He looks OK, but needs some smaller clothes. Jacket looks a tad baggy, face is drawn.
    Not sure I would recommend ICU / pneumonia over weight watchers...I lost a stone in 10 days when I had it a couple of years ago.
    He looks exactly as you would expect a man to look, who had a brush with death. He needs to go away and lie down for a fortnight. And very slowly go back to work’

    There are already nutters on twitter saying his reappearance means it was all a hoax
    I doubt they are nutters, how many are in and out in 2 days with this.
    Malc, that's daft.
    he is milking it
    He's certainly leaning on it heavily to make his point about the NHS, but that is not necessarily a bad thing.
    I found it distasteful and the Tory utterings are bordering on obscene.
    No class and no empathy with the hundreds of people losing loved ones daily. Nasty nasty people and we see the worst of them on here.

    I take it the quest for indy isn’t going so well?

    ;)
    Only a cretin would say something as crass as that, oh wait you are the cretin that compared him to Jesus.
    You obnoxious odious creatures that infest the Tory party have no morals or principles, rotten to the core.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    At first glance this look a deal more promising than hydroxychloroquine....

    Compassionate Use of Remdesivir for Patients with Severe Covid-19
    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2007016
    Of the 61 patients who received at least one dose of remdesivir, data from 8 could not be analyzed (including 7 patients with no post-treatment data and 1 with a dosing error). Of the 53 patients whose data were analyzed, 22 were in the United States, 22 in Europe or Canada, and 9 in Japan. At baseline, 30 patients (57%) were receiving mechanical ventilation and 4 (8%) were receiving extracorporeal membrane oxygenation. During a median follow-up of 18 days, 36 patients (68%) had an improvement in oxygen-support class, including 17 of 30 patients (57%) receiving mechanical ventilation who were extubated. A total of 25 patients (47%) were discharged, and 7 patients (13%) died; mortality was 18% (6 of 34) among patients receiving invasive ventilation and 5% (1 of 19) among those not receiving invasive ventilation.

    Will need a randomised trial to confirm its effectiveness, of course. And fortunately doesn’t have the hype surrounding the malaria drug, so that is happening.

    Mortality of 18% is promising? It might be, but you'd need some comparables. Which should be readily available - so many people are dying of this that it should be easy to find a matching cohort who weren't given remdesivir and compare outcomes.
    I’ve seen figures elsewhere of 50% mortality for ‘invasively ventilated’ patients, so yes.

    Impossible to know whether like is being compared with like, though, which is why a randomised, controlled trial is essential.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Andrew Adonis is a prick.

    China is currently our only way of mitigating our PPE Gowns and testing crises and he agrees with PB Tory master strategists that we should be cutting lifelines
    Germany would actually be a better source for those and if the Chinese government had shut wet markets and improved lab safety we would not need them in the first place
    Only one manufacturer of the Gowns we need in the whole world according to BBC this morning (Chris Hopson Head of NHS Providers)

    "China," you know the Country various posters on here wanted to burn bridges with 10 days ago

    Apparently we are flying a plane full every day but still not sufficient and not always of sufficient quality.
    Find a British factory that can knock them out. Order a squillion. Pay the Chinese company for a squillion items to cover IP licensing. Or something like that.
    Find a factory.
    Find the raw materials.
    Find the tooling.
    Find the setup that produces a reliable product.

    Steal the intellectual property rights from China.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    Government is working to the strategy that the PM set out while Boris is spending an indeterminate time recuperating.

    What if the strategy needs to change?

    Why would 'sit on arse until the peak passes' need to change?
    So you are saying the government hasn't (needed to) change strategy since the beginning?
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    MikeL said:

    My late Mum was in ICU for several days two years ago.

    It was one nurse for every two patients throughout.

    Two years ago I spent several days in ICU and it was staffed at one nurse per patient. Two nurses would occasionally monitor three patients whilst the third had a break but there were always other nurses available on the ward.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Pagan2 said:

    I am curious to know where the fault for lack of PPE here lies, while certainly politicians should be doing a lot more to make it happen as far as I know the money is available. That therefore points to either procurement or distribution. I can imagine procurement being at fault because someone somewhere is sticking to non crisis procedures, or alternatively they keep getting outbid for masks.

    A lot is made in China, which has been stealing stockpiles. There is also some distribution issues because the government took over a lot but was only used to going to hospitals. It’s also massively more in demand than expected so there is a general shortage.

    But does anyone else find it distasteful that the union is saying “don’t work” to the nurses. I agree that the government should be going all they can to source more PPE - and I’m sure they are - but “don’t work” is not a constructive approach to the public health crisis we are in (and I suspect nurses on the ground will ignore their union)
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    TOPPING said:

    Government is working to the strategy that the PM set out while Boris is spending an indeterminate time recuperating.

    What if the strategy needs to change?

    Well, quite. And what if Argentina invades the Falklands tonight?

    Why should I put my seatbelt on? It's not like anyone has scheduled a crash.
  • TGOHF666 said:

    So can Keith Stammer be a sensible choice for PM as he hasn’t had Covid ?

    Too big a risk surely ?

    Is this constant deliberate misnaming if Starmer by certain posters meant to be funny? It’s of a level with ‘Camoron’ - ffs grow up.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    MattW said:

    I'm not clear that "wilfully incompetent" has any meaning whatsoever.

    I took it to mean wicked.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Government is working to the strategy that the PM set out while Boris is spending an indeterminate time recuperating.

    What if the strategy needs to change?

    Why would 'sit on arse until the peak passes' need to change?
    So you are saying the government hasn't (needed to) change strategy since the beginning?
    I think he's saying it won't need to change in the next few days/
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    kinabalu said:

    No problems with the eulogisers?

    Exactly. The one triggers the other.

    The prosaic probable truth is that they did not take any chances whatsoever with him, therefore ICU came into play at a point when your average patient would be monitored outside of it, and the human resource employed in his care was at the very upper end of what is feasible.

    All of which (for me) is absolutely fine and reasonable. He is the PM.

    But if somebody starts tearing up and telling me what a fucking messiah he is, then I'm going to be sorely tempted to reply with, "Don't be a softhead, he was barely ill, guy's clearly milking it for all he's worth."

    And so it goes.
    Pretty well where I am.
    And glad he’s recovered.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    edited April 2020
    malcolmg said:

    I’m finding a lot of the comments on here today about someone who has been in ICU very depressing and cold. Might be time for me to take another break from PB.

    Don't hit your arse on the door on the way out loser.
    You've always been a gentleman and a scholar, malc :)
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited April 2020
    eadric said:

    Stocky said:

    eadric said:

    Boris will be an absolute folk hero now. The totemic leader who beat the bug. The Easter king, returned from the tomb

    https://twitter.com/borisjohnson/status/1249336590482243585?s=21

    Very well done, a well-pitched speech, emotional. Thanking the nurses by name. He looks OK, but needs some smaller clothes. Jacket looks a tad baggy, face is drawn.
    Not sure I would recommend ICU / pneumonia over weight watchers...I lost a stone in 10 days when I had it a couple of years ago.
    He looks exactly as you would expect a man to look, who had a brush with death. He needs to go away and lie down for a fortnight. And very slowly go back to work’

    There are already nutters on twitter saying his reappearance means it was all a hoax
    Talking of Conspiracy Theories:

    Please tell us whether you think each of the following is true or false

    - The Coronavirus pandemic was caused by the rollout of 5G

    True:
    Con: 6%
    Lab: 9%
    Leave: 4%
    Remain: 7%


    https://www.opinium.co.uk/public-opinion-on-coronavirus-7th-april/
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,680
    Say what you like about Boris, but only he could have gotten away with listing the doctors and nurses who treated him by name. Imagine any other PM doing it - it would have come across as toe-curling, ingratiating claptrap. But with Boris it really does sound as if he and his carers are now friends for life. Boris is a magnificent political conjurer if nothing else.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    If the "deaths doubling every three and a half days" from a couple of weeks ago, today's figure would have been around 2,500 - BBC News
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,814
    malcolmg said:

    I’m finding a lot of the comments on here today about someone who has been in ICU very depressing and cold. Might be time for me to take another break from PB.

    Don't hit your arse on the door on the way out loser.
    Yes well that just about sums it up. Bye.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Andrew Adonis is a prick.

    China is currently our only way of mitigating our PPE Gowns and testing crises and he agrees with PB Tory master strategists that we should be cutting lifelines
    Germany would actually be a better source for those and if the Chinese government had shut wet markets and improved lab safety we would not need them in the first place
    Only one manufacturer of the Gowns we need in the whole world according to BBC this morning (Chris Hopson Head of NHS Providers)

    "China," you know the Country various posters on here wanted to burn bridges with 10 days ago

    Apparently we are flying a plane full every day but still not sufficient and not always of sufficient quality.
    Find a British factory that can knock them out. Order a squillion. Pay the Chinese company for a squillion items to cover IP licensing. Or something like that.
    I doubt N95 respirators for instance are covered by patent. If they are we should ignore under national emergency laws.
    GOWNS GOWNS GOWNS we only have a couple of days left UK wide
    We'll have to expidite from the Chinese even if we don't like them then.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    At first glance this look a deal more promising than hydroxychloroquine....

    Compassionate Use of Remdesivir for Patients with Severe Covid-19
    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2007016
    Of the 61 patients who received at least one dose of remdesivir, data from 8 could not be analyzed (including 7 patients with no post-treatment data and 1 with a dosing error). Of the 53 patients whose data were analyzed, 22 were in the United States, 22 in Europe or Canada, and 9 in Japan. At baseline, 30 patients (57%) were receiving mechanical ventilation and 4 (8%) were receiving extracorporeal membrane oxygenation. During a median follow-up of 18 days, 36 patients (68%) had an improvement in oxygen-support class, including 17 of 30 patients (57%) receiving mechanical ventilation who were extubated. A total of 25 patients (47%) were discharged, and 7 patients (13%) died; mortality was 18% (6 of 34) among patients receiving invasive ventilation and 5% (1 of 19) among those not receiving invasive ventilation.

    Will need a randomised trial to confirm its effectiveness, of course. And fortunately doesn’t have the hype surrounding the malaria drug, so that is happening.

    Mortality of 18% is promising? It might be, but you'd need some comparables. Which should be readily available - so many people are dying of this that it should be easy to find a matching cohort who weren't given remdesivir and compare outcomes.
    I’ve seen figures elsewhere of 50% mortality for ‘invasively ventilated’ patients, so yes.

    Impossible to know whether like is being compared with like, though, which is why a randomised, controlled trial is essential.
    Sure: but it should be possible to retrospectively identify some controls with similar situations and prognoses (as you implicitly do in your first paragraph).
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589
    Charles said:

    assively more in demand than expected so there is a general shortage.

    But does anyone else find it distasteful that the union is saying “don’t work” to the nurses. I agree that the government should be going all they can to source more PPE - and I’m sure they are - but “don’t work” is not a constructive approach to the public health crisis we are in (and I suspect nurses on the ground will ignore their union)

    No not really. It's easy to say from a sun lounger in my back garden but not quite as fun a decision when you're in close contact with a confirmed COVID patient. I'm disinclined to place any blame with the nurses union or individual nurses for saying "No this isn't appropriate". From a purely logistical standpoint a nurse who is KO'd for a week in quarantine isn't helping patients back to health.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    kinabalu said:

    No problems with the eulogisers?

    Exactly. The one triggers the other.

    The prosaic probable truth is that they did not take any chances whatsoever with him, therefore ICU came into play at a point when your average patient would be monitored outside of it, and the human resource employed in his care was at the very upper end of what is feasible.

    All of which (for me) is absolutely fine and reasonable. He is the PM.

    But if somebody starts tearing up and telling me what a fucking messiah he is, then I'm going to be sorely tempted to reply with, "Don't be a softhead, he was barely ill, guy's clearly milking it for all he's worth."

    And so it goes.
    Thank goodness for a sensible assessment, unfair as the treatment of the PM is in the sense of strict equity and rationing shares with other subjects of HM the Q.

    We've had another poster talk of Mr Johnson going through Hell - presumably not intended as a refernece to the Harrowing of Hell: but it does remind me that for all that the C of E is supposed to be the Tory Party at prayer, the PB Tories - and posibly some other, ironic, posters - seem ignorant of the concept of blasphemy. And also of hubris, given that Mr Johnson is still in a very wobbly state. He might yet get an Ascension to the Lords.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    malcolmg said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    eadric said:

    Boris will be an absolute folk hero now. The totemic leader who beat the bug. The Easter king, returned from the tomb

    https://twitter.com/borisjohnson/status/1249336590482243585?s=21

    Yes of all the days to rise up again Easter Sunday was surely the day for him to do it
    It is vomit inducing , he has two nurses round the clock yet the plebs are lucky if they get one for 6-8 patients. Was not much wrong with him if he only had a couple of days in hospital that is for sure.
    I think the reality probably lies somewhere between the second resurrection hyperbole, and your rather more cynical take on things, malcolm.
    It is extremely bad taste to boast about having two nurses round the clock when lots of people's loved ones are dying in wards with hardly any or in nursing homes etc. The clown must know not everybody gets such VIP treatment. A bit of humility rather than triumphalism by Tories might be a bit more circumspect. Comparisons on here to him being Jesus are particularly nasty.
    Unlike every syllable you write, which in the alternate reality you occupy you must imagine are not nasty at all.
    Certainly nothing comparable to that for certain and nowhere near the obscene Tory utterings on here.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    Say what you like about Boris, but only he could have gotten away with listing the doctors and nurses who treated him by name. Imagine any other PM doing it - it would have come across as toe-curling, ingratiating claptrap. But with Boris it really does sound as if he and his carers are now friends for life. Boris is a magnificent political conjurer if nothing else.

    That is exactly ho wit did come across , a PR stunt.
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589
    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    At first glance this look a deal more promising than hydroxychloroquine....

    Compassionate Use of Remdesivir for Patients with Severe Covid-19
    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2007016
    Of the 61 patients who received at least one dose of remdesivir, data from 8 could not be analyzed (including 7 patients with no post-treatment data and 1 with a dosing error). Of the 53 patients whose data were analyzed, 22 were in the United States, 22 in Europe or Canada, and 9 in Japan. At baseline, 30 patients (57%) were receiving mechanical ventilation and 4 (8%) were receiving extracorporeal membrane oxygenation. During a median follow-up of 18 days, 36 patients (68%) had an improvement in oxygen-support class, including 17 of 30 patients (57%) receiving mechanical ventilation who were extubated. A total of 25 patients (47%) were discharged, and 7 patients (13%) died; mortality was 18% (6 of 34) among patients receiving invasive ventilation and 5% (1 of 19) among those not receiving invasive ventilation.

    Will need a randomised trial to confirm its effectiveness, of course. And fortunately doesn’t have the hype surrounding the malaria drug, so that is happening.

    Mortality of 18% is promising? It might be, but you'd need some comparables. Which should be readily available - so many people are dying of this that it should be easy to find a matching cohort who weren't given remdesivir and compare outcomes.
    I’ve seen figures elsewhere of 50% mortality for ‘invasively ventilated’ patients, so yes.

    Impossible to know whether like is being compared with like, though, which is why a randomised, controlled trial is essential.
    Sure: but it should be possible to retrospectively identify some controls with similar situations and prognoses (as you implicitly do in your first paragraph).
    The inevitable problem now is developing proper distribution. Given the orange gorilla has been trying his best to sabotage any effort to collectively deal with this thing I'm not confident we're going to see anything other than a deeply unedifying scramble for the first available working medication.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878

    eadric said:

    Stocky said:

    eadric said:

    Boris will be an absolute folk hero now. The totemic leader who beat the bug. The Easter king, returned from the tomb

    https://twitter.com/borisjohnson/status/1249336590482243585?s=21

    Very well done, a well-pitched speech, emotional. Thanking the nurses by name. He looks OK, but needs some smaller clothes. Jacket looks a tad baggy, face is drawn.
    Not sure I would recommend ICU / pneumonia over weight watchers...I lost a stone in 10 days when I had it a couple of years ago.
    He looks exactly as you would expect a man to look, who had a brush with death. He needs to go away and lie down for a fortnight. And very slowly go back to work’

    There are already nutters on twitter saying his reappearance means it was all a hoax
    Talking of Conspiracy Theories:

    Please tell us whether you think each of the following is true or false

    - The Coronavirus pandemic was caused by the rollout of 5G

    True:
    Con: 6%
    Lab: 9%
    Leave: 4%
    Remain: 7%


    https://www.opinium.co.uk/public-opinion-on-coronavirus-7th-april/
    hang on aren't we always told left leaning folk and remainers are more intelligent?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited April 2020
    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Government is working to the strategy that the PM set out while Boris is spending an indeterminate time recuperating.

    What if the strategy needs to change?

    Why would 'sit on arse until the peak passes' need to change?
    So you are saying the government hasn't (needed to) change strategy since the beginning?
    I think he's saying it won't need to change in the next few days/
    Sorry to labour this, but @Charles said last week that Boris would resign if he was still not able to operate within six months. And the clock is ticking. Charles presumably wouldn't have said that if he thought we were being governed optimally now so at what point do we, as a nation, say we need 100% government? Now? After a few days? After three months?

    I would say now is precisely the time we need a government operating at 100%.

    Nor do I want Boris to resign. I want the government to outline, in some detail, who is making decisions, and with what authority, while Boris is hors de combat. At the moment, the government is operating under Boris' strategy while Boris rests up. But what if tomorrow that strategy needs to change?

    And as such, the media is absolutely right to ask the "who is governing Britain" questions. Although of course they haven't been these past couple of days, which is a shame.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    I’m finding a lot of the comments on here today about someone who has been in ICU very depressing and cold. Might be time for me to take another break from PB.

    Don't hit your arse on the door on the way out loser.
    You've always been a gentleman and a scholar, malc :)
    Well, what a whining jessie boy , he needs to get a backbone and give his honest opinion rather than skulking off.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    At first glance this look a deal more promising than hydroxychloroquine....

    Compassionate Use of Remdesivir for Patients with Severe Covid-19
    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2007016
    Of the 61 patients who received at least one dose of remdesivir, data from 8 could not be analyzed (including 7 patients with no post-treatment data and 1 with a dosing error). Of the 53 patients whose data were analyzed, 22 were in the United States, 22 in Europe or Canada, and 9 in Japan. At baseline, 30 patients (57%) were receiving mechanical ventilation and 4 (8%) were receiving extracorporeal membrane oxygenation. During a median follow-up of 18 days, 36 patients (68%) had an improvement in oxygen-support class, including 17 of 30 patients (57%) receiving mechanical ventilation who were extubated. A total of 25 patients (47%) were discharged, and 7 patients (13%) died; mortality was 18% (6 of 34) among patients receiving invasive ventilation and 5% (1 of 19) among those not receiving invasive ventilation.

    Will need a randomised trial to confirm its effectiveness, of course. And fortunately doesn’t have the hype surrounding the malaria drug, so that is happening.

    Mortality of 18% is promising? It might be, but you'd need some comparables. Which should be readily available - so many people are dying of this that it should be easy to find a matching cohort who weren't given remdesivir and compare outcomes.
    I’ve seen figures elsewhere of 50% mortality for ‘invasively ventilated’ patients, so yes.

    Impossible to know whether like is being compared with like, though, which is why a randomised, controlled trial is essential.
    Sure: but it should be possible to retrospectively identify some controls with similar situations and prognoses (as you implicitly do in your first paragraph).
    The study does that, if you go to the link... and then goes to point out possible confounding factors.
    Like I say, it need the results of controlled randomised trials, some of which should be available in the next month.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    malcolmg said:

    Say what you like about Boris, but only he could have gotten away with listing the doctors and nurses who treated him by name. Imagine any other PM doing it - it would have come across as toe-curling, ingratiating claptrap. But with Boris it really does sound as if he and his carers are now friends for life. Boris is a magnificent political conjurer if nothing else.

    That is exactly ho wit did come across , a PR stunt.
    A PR stunt? Boris clearly goes the extra mile...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    No problems with the eulogisers?

    Exactly. The one triggers the other.

    The prosaic probable truth is that they did not take any chances whatsoever with him, therefore ICU came into play at a point when your average patient would be monitored outside of it, and the human resource employed in his care was at the very upper end of what is feasible.

    All of which (for me) is absolutely fine and reasonable. He is the PM.

    But if somebody starts tearing up and telling me what a fucking messiah he is, then I'm going to be sorely tempted to reply with, "Don't be a softhead, he was barely ill, guy's clearly milking it for all he's worth."

    And so it goes.
    Pretty well where I am.
    And glad he’s recovered.
    Exactly good he has recovered , but he got special treatment and then uses it as a PR job.
This discussion has been closed.