Iain MacNicol on R4 at the mo' on Left Out of Power on challenges facing Starmer & Labour, and how they win back Scotland. This fresh exciting approach in a nutshell:
We must engage and talk to voters in Scotland about how bad the SNP are and get Gordon Brown to lead SLab in Holyrood.
In fairness, he was the last Labour leader to win an election of any sort in Scotland.
Gordon Brown was on CNN earlier, with an introduction as the British PM who brought the world together in the last crisis.
Not as the PM who ‘saved the world?’
We should probably bomb the Brown residence. A uniquely vile person.
The comment by Governor Cuomo basically opens the next stage of this:
"Nobody wants to pick between a public health strategy and an economic strategy,"
I suspect we are heading to the point when we are going to have to.
It will be talked of more and more in the next few weeks, with a 'relaxation' date much debated I expect. Wonder if there is a market on it. I'd be on June.
I'm also 1000% convinced that whatever date is chosen it will be seen as too early by some and too late by others, so I don't even picking the right moment.
Is there even such thing as a half and half approach? It may seem we began this open one week, and shut down by the next weekend, but the truth is we began in a half and half approach and it’s effectiveness is exactly what is being called into question today. How do you shield the vulnerable whilst getting things back to normal, without everything looking like a political ploy to squat the spike and not truly care for the most vulnerables long term interest at all?
Turn to the media for guidance and both telegraph and Mail last few days lead with story’s of a year long shut down, due to the fact it takes this long to test vaccines and treatments for side effects. Meanwhile look at today’s front pages, a red top has led with “my child is more important than the old, they should sign non resuscitation forms”.
Yet, the bottom line clearly is, how long can you keep your economy in coma before it’s starts to permanently die?
If we think this is currently hell, it’s nothing compared to the judgement of Solomon hurtling towards us.
Very well done, a well-pitched speech, emotional. Thanking the nurses by name. He looks OK, but needs some smaller clothes. Jacket looks a tad baggy, face is drawn.
Not sure I would recommend ICU / pneumonia over weight watchers...I lost a stone in 10 days when I had it a couple of years ago.
He looks exactly as you would expect a man to look, who had a brush with death. He needs to go away and lie down for a fortnight. And very slowly go back to work’
There are already nutters on twitter saying his reappearance means it was all a hoax
I doubt they are nutters, how many are in and out in 2 days with this.
Malc, that's daft.
he is milking it
He's certainly leaning on it heavily to make his point about the NHS, but that is not necessarily a bad thing.
I found it distasteful and the Tory utterings are bordering on obscene. No class and no empathy with the hundreds of people losing loved ones daily. Nasty nasty people and we see the worst of them on here.
I take it the quest for indy isn’t going so well?
Only a cretin would say something as crass as that, oh wait you are the cretin that compared him to Jesus. You obnoxious odious creatures that infest the Tory party have no morals or principles, rotten to the core.
Ironically Seadtronic, despite going on and on about normalcy bias as if he invented it, suffers from a form of it in relation to Scottish indy. Year on year, month in, month out, everything is bad for Scottish indy and nothing will change that; it renders him incapable of saying anything interesting on the subject.
I know, sounds like a stuck record. It's like some crazy sort of mental tic isn't it?
Finance Minister sacked for grooming young man - bad for indy Former leader arrested for rape - bad for indy SNP at war with itself - bad for indy
Only in Yoon-land.
And yet not an iota of carry through in polls. How galling for ticcy Yoons & how sh*** (censored for you sensitive types) must their politicians be?
Yes of all the days to rise up again Easter Sunday was surely the day for him to do it
It is vomit inducing , he has two nurses round the clock yet the plebs are lucky if they get one for 6-8 patients. Was not much wrong with him if he only had a couple of days in hospital that is for sure.
I think the reality probably lies somewhere between the second resurrection hyperbole, and your rather more cynical take on things, malcolm.
It is extremely bad taste to boast about having two nurses round the clock when lots of people's loved ones are dying in wards with hardly any or in nursing homes etc. The clown must know not everybody gets such VIP treatment. A bit of humility rather than triumphalism by Tories might be a bit more circumspect. Comparisons on here to him being Jesus are particularly nasty.
Seems like virtually the only major European country that has done anything right, to read that, given how events have proceeded.
Yet Germany failed to contain the virus. It seemed more important for the authorities here not to inconvenience people going on skiing holidays than to seriously try to contain a deadly epidemic. Germany seeming so far to be doing a bit better than Britain isn't saying much. All the major European governments have been disappointing.
And why is Hammond indulging in lazy stereotypes? Not helpful, or funny if it's supposed to be a joke.
Taiwan looks to be doing the best so far.
New Zealand too. The message 'We go hard, we go early', very All Blacks. Didn't wait until people wanted to close things down, did it well before they'd even thought about it. As Jacinda Ardern said "“A strategy that sacrifices people in favour of supposedly a better economic outcome is a false dichotomy and has been shown to produce the worst of both worlds: loss of life and prolonged economic pain,”
Clear, forceful, truthful, compassionate.
New Zealand is doing relatively well, but still worse than Taiwan (276 cases per million against 16 cases per million). New Zealand also had the advantage of seeing what was happening in other countries which I'm not sure they really made the most of.
The UK had that advantage too. Then we wasted at least a week before locking down. Leaders lead, they don't wait for the people to agree with them. NZ did that and they closed the borders as well, all things which the UK refused to do because they thought people wouldn't like it.
I like Dr Fauci - he has a tendency to not suffer fools gladly and he was getting a touch irritated at that interviewing technique too. He also gets irritated with Trump - for the same reason - a dunderhead with delusions of grandeur, but at least he is the POTUS.
What is the excuse for the bunch of thicko journalists who assemble to show their ignorance every day at the government's press conference?
Lots of people seem keen to announce the scores before it's even half-time... It is going to be a long time before we really know who did well and who did badly. The raw statistics are never going to be fully comparable even after the statisticians have done their totting up and standardising, what with different countries having different age structures, urban/rural splits, interconnectivity, household sizes etc.
And even then that only tells us how well the decisions worked out in retrospect, but what the best decisions were with the information available at the time is going to be a subject of argument for generations to come. As a simple example, eggheads have long been split about the effectiveness - or counterproductiveness - of shutting schools during a pandemic, whether a football stadium is more or less risky than a pub etc. Who knows whether decisions on those matters were made for the right reasons - could well be political expendiency or need to be seen to be "doing something" or alternatively the need not to be seen to panic drove decisions in many coubtries, and in some cases I'm sure politicians chose what turned out to be right decision for all the wrong reasons.
Given what's happened in Singapore, I wouldn't want to be bigging up other countries for successfully stopping the epidemic in its tracks. Not yet. You've got to find a sustainable way to stop it forever if that's your game, and given where we stand with time to a vaccine and the accumulating damage to the economy, that's a long old game.
As you can see everything is in hand and there is a new website written by the army that will be launched in the next few weeks.
That is great things will be better in a month or so, you have reassured us they are doing a great job
From that gov.uk paper, it is hard to fault (at least at first glance) any of what HMG is doing but it is the complete lack of urgency that is shocking. Boris needs to read this thread's header and "action this day" a new appointment.
They are just copying Trump, every day they say we are going to do testing , huge amounts of testing , huge amounts, PPE we have ordered huge amounts of PPE , huge amounts and yet it never materialises. Worst is when they start using numbers as they are not good at counting and make a right hash of it.
You think they are lying about the numbers they quote?
Rob, I think they pull them out of their rear end, if they just told people the truth and said it was very difficult and they were doing their best rather than setting stupid targets they never meet. I listened to Hancock the other day and he went on about having said two weeks ago we will have 26 million and then said he had delivered 14 million in the last two weeks later on and made himself look a right bellend.
Wait a minute. You are saying the numbers are just completely made up with no basis in reality?
I am saying the numbers he quoted showed he had failed miserably or he did not understand what he had ordered/delivered etc. To be clear he is a dunderheid and should not be in charge of running a bath.
Perhaps he was talking about different things? Total number of pieces of PPE vs. a particular type, for example.
Rob, I don't think they really have a clue where they are.
Seems like virtually the only major European country that has done anything right, to read that, given how events have proceeded.
Yet Germany failed to contain the virus. It seemed more important for the authorities here not to inconvenience people going on skiing holidays than to seriously try to contain a deadly epidemic. Germany seeming so far to be doing a bit better than Britain isn't saying much. All the major European governments have been disappointing.
And why is Hammond indulging in lazy stereotypes? Not helpful, or funny if it's supposed to be a joke.
Taiwan looks to be doing the best so far.
New Zealand too. The message 'We go hard, we go early', very All Blacks. Didn't wait until people wanted to close things down, did it well before they'd even thought about it. As Jacinda Ardern said "“A strategy that sacrifices people in favour of supposedly a better economic outcome is a false dichotomy and has been shown to produce the worst of both worlds: loss of life and prolonged economic pain,”
Clear, forceful, truthful, compassionate.
New Zealand is doing relatively well, but still worse than Taiwan (276 cases per million against 16 cases per million). New Zealand also had the advantage of seeing what was happening in other countries which I'm not sure they really made the most of.
The UK had that advantage too. Then we wasted at least a week before locking down. Leaders lead, they don't wait for the people to agree with them. NZ did that and they closed the borders as well, all things which the UK refused to do because they thought people wouldn't like it.
The population density of NZ is also only twice that of the Scottish Highlands... what we call 'social-distancing measures' here is what they call Tuesday.
I see @TOPPING is back calling for dictatorship in the name of “efficiency” on the previous thread. We have a great decision making process. Minor decisions can be made by ministers. Major decisions get referred to Cabinet. Normally, if there is a particularly controversial decision, the PM can force his/her opinion through by abusing the sum-up procedure (Thatcher’s favourite tactic) or by directly investing political capital.
At the moment it is all working as normal. There haven’t been any controversial decisions since BJ went into isolation. The next one - the review of lockdown - isn’t controversial as it will be an extension. May be the science will be less clear in 4 weeks time when there is the next review, in which case hopefully Boris will be better by then.
@BluestBlue re: property owners without the cash pay a property tax, sorry but these are not normal times. Those with wealth must contribute more - taxing property is the easiest way to do that (and do a roll up as a first lien if needed). But I would make it explicitly to pay back the “Corona debt” - a solidarity charge if you like - and not have it as part of normal government spending. I don’t have a problem per @MaxPB charging more for second homes
I see you have misunderstood what I said. Which is strange because it was fairly straightforward.
The PM is off games for the foreseeable future. You said of course he would resign if he were going to be unfit for six months, presumably because you think we are not being governed optimally. So as we are not being governed optimally, when should he step down?
We are being governed as the system requires. The PM only sets direction - at the moment there is only one direction: beat this fucker
I know similar sentiments have been expressed about countless leaders of SLAB, but surely they couldn't find anyone worse than Leonard. Even getting Jim Murphy back would be an upgrade (he at least managed to keep on board the hardcore unionists, before SLAB lost them to Davidson).
I’m finding a lot of the comments on here today about someone who has been in ICU very depressing and cold. Might be time for me to take another break from PB.
Don't hit your arse on the door on the way out loser.
Malc.
There are times when we all need to be kinder and no matter our politics to show some compassion. Nothing is achieved by always being angry. Time to tone down just a wee bit
I absolutely second that. Let us be in no doubt it is completely wrong to call into question Boris Johnson’s own character in his covid battle, nor question the political character of his government. Sure he had a test others who wanted one couldn’t get, and yes he may have been fast tracked to the oxygen mask without battling through 111 etc like the general public, but the fact trumping all inappropriate remarks of his opponents is If Johnson himself hoped and prayed and sought to be treated the same as the medical team treating him, Just same as anybody else in the country, he simply wouldn’t be allowed, because it is a matter of importance to ourselves as a nation to do what we can to prevent our nations PM dying, avoid obvious damage to national morale, prevent distractions from consistent and clear leadership at this important time, and degree of reputational damage internationally.
The treatment worked, we should all take some comfort from it now, and move on. It’s no longer a story let alone ‘the’ story.
It is him making it a bigger story , pontificating about his two nurses stood over him day and night whilst the peasants have to hope for the best. Whilst happy he is is well, a few days in ICU where no normal joe public would ever had a chance of getting to does not say life threatening. You Tories may be happy that your idol gets special treatment but I am not. Next time you hear the crap " we are all in it together " have a think instead of adopting the position. I believe in equality and someone who expects and takes preferential treatment is a sign of a rotten creep to me, you go on idolising your clay hero.
You are still burning with irrational anger Malc
And it saddens me
Nothing irrational G, can you put your hand on your heart and lie that he did not get preferential treatment and that he si now using it as political gain.
As you can see everything is in hand and there is a new website written by the army that will be launched in the next few weeks.
That is great things will be better in a month or so, you have reassured us they are doing a great job
From that gov.uk paper, it is hard to fault (at least at first glance) any of what HMG is doing but it is the complete lack of urgency that is shocking. Boris needs to read this thread's header and "action this day" a new appointment.
They are just copying Trump, every day they say we are going to do testing , huge amounts of testing , huge amounts, PPE we have ordered huge amounts of PPE , huge amounts and yet it never materialises. Worst is when they start using numbers as they are not good at counting and make a right hash of it.
You think they are lying about the numbers they quote?
Rob, I think they pull them out of their rear end, if they just told people the truth and said it was very difficult and they were doing their best rather than setting stupid targets they never meet. I listened to Hancock the other day and he went on about having said two weeks ago we will have 26 million and then said he had delivered 14 million in the last two weeks later on and made himself look a right bellend.
Wait a minute. You are saying the numbers are just completely made up with no basis in reality?
I am saying the numbers he quoted showed he had failed miserably or he did not understand what he had ordered/delivered etc. To be clear he is a dunderheid and should not be in charge of running a bath.
Perhaps he was talking about different things? Total number of pieces of PPE vs. a particular type, for example.
Rob, I don't think they really have a clue where they are.
I find it very hard to believe they have no idea how much PPE they are delivering. The information may take a bit to get back to the center, but I sincerely doubt they are doing this blind.
I’m finding a lot of the comments on here today about someone who has been in ICU very depressing and cold. Might be time for me to take another break from PB.
Don't hit your arse on the door on the way out loser.
Malc.
There are times when we all need to be kinder and no matter our politics to show some compassion. Nothing is achieved by always being angry. Time to tone down just a wee bit
I absolutely second that. Let us be in no doubt it is completely wrong to call into question Boris Johnson’s own character in his covid battle, nor question the political character of his government. Sure he had a test others who wanted one couldn’t get, and yes he may have been fast tracked to the oxygen mask without battling through 111 etc like the general public, but the fact trumping all inappropriate remarks of his opponents is If Johnson himself hoped and prayed and sought to be treated the same as the medical team treating him, Just same as anybody else in the country, he simply wouldn’t be allowed, because it is a matter of importance to ourselves as a nation to do what we can to prevent our nations PM dying, avoid obvious damage to national morale, prevent distractions from consistent and clear leadership at this important time, and degree of reputational damage internationally.
The treatment worked, we should all take some comfort from it now, and move on. It’s no longer a story let alone ‘the’ story.
It is him making it a bigger story , pontificating about his two nurses stood over him day and night whilst the peasants have to hope for the best. Whilst happy he is is well, a few days in ICU where no normal joe public would ever had a chance of getting to does not say life threatening. You Tories may be happy that your idol gets special treatment but I am not. Next time you hear the crap " we are all in it together " have a think instead of adopting the position. I believe in equality and someone who expects and takes preferential treatment is a sign of a rotten creep to me, you go on idolising your clay hero.
You are still burning with irrational anger Malc
And it saddens me
Nothing irrational G, can you put your hand on your heart and lie that he did not get preferential treatment and that he si now using it as political gain.
Yes I can and without hesitation and it is not a lie
Seems like virtually the only major European country that has done anything right, to read that, given how events have proceeded.
Yet Germany failed to contain the virus. It seemed more important for the authorities here not to inconvenience people going on skiing holidays than to seriously try to contain a deadly epidemic. Germany seeming so far to be doing a bit better than Britain isn't saying much. All the major European governments have been disappointing.
And why is Hammond indulging in lazy stereotypes? Not helpful, or funny if it's supposed to be a joke.
Taiwan looks to be doing the best so far.
New Zealand too. The message 'We go hard, we go early', very All Blacks. Didn't wait until people wanted to close things down, did it well before they'd even thought about it. As Jacinda Ardern said "“A strategy that sacrifices people in favour of supposedly a better economic outcome is a false dichotomy and has been shown to produce the worst of both worlds: loss of life and prolonged economic pain,”
Clear, forceful, truthful, compassionate.
New Zealand is doing relatively well, but still worse than Taiwan (276 cases per million against 16 cases per million). New Zealand also had the advantage of seeing what was happening in other countries which I'm not sure they really made the most of.
The UK had that advantage too. Then we wasted at least a week before locking down. Leaders lead, they don't wait for the people to agree with them. NZ did that and they closed the borders as well, all things which the UK refused to do because they thought people wouldn't like it.
The population density of NZ is also only twice that of the Scottish Highlands... what we call 'social-distancing measures' here is what they call Tuesday.
They have cities too. I appreciate it's not easy to admit that we were too slow, as we are still in the middle of it all, but that was a wasted week and more. The horror of the Irish looking across to see Cheltenham, the Stereophonics gig and so on was posted about earlier this morning. We are doing a lot of things well but leaving it too late to admit that we started really, really badly won't wash when it is owned up to later. Better to 'fess up now.
China is currently our only way of mitigating our PPE Gowns and testing crises and he agrees with PB Tory master strategists that we should be cutting lifelines
Germany would actually be a better source for those and if the Chinese government had shut wet markets and improved lab safety we would not need them in the first place
Only one manufacturer of the Gowns we need in the whole world according to BBC this morning (Chris Hopson Head of NHS Providers)
"China," you know the Country various posters on here wanted to burn bridges with 10 days ago
Apparently we are flying a plane full every day but still not sufficient and not always of sufficient quality.
Find a British factory that can knock them out. Order a squillion. Pay the Chinese company for a squillion items to cover IP licensing. Or something like that.
Find a factory. Find the raw materials. Find the tooling. Find the setup that produces a reliable product.
Steal the intellectual property rights from China.
There’s plenty of IPR around drapes & gowns in Europe
200 down from yesterday, sad news for the relatives but UK curve starting to flatten which is good news
This pattern happens every single week.
Up until last weekend the figure was doubling every 3.5 days, had the curve not flattened and that trend continued there would have been 2,500 deaths announced today
I’m finding a lot of the comments on here today about someone who has been in ICU very depressing and cold. Might be time for me to take another break from PB.
Don't hit your arse on the door on the way out loser.
Malc.
There are times when we all need to be kinder and no matter our politics to show some compassion. Nothing is achieved by always being angry. Time to tone down just a wee bit
I absolutely second that. Let us be in no doubt it is completely wrong to call into question Boris Johnson’s own character in his covid battle, nor question the political character of his government. Sure he had a test others who wanted one couldn’t get, and yes he may have been fast tracked to the oxygen mask without battling through 111 etc like the general public, but the fact trumping all inappropriate remarks of his opponents is If Johnson himself hoped and prayed and sought to be treated the same as the medical team treating him, Just same as anybody else in the country, he simply wouldn’t be allowed, because it is a matter of importance to ourselves as a nation to do what we can to prevent our nations PM dying, avoid obvious damage to national morale, prevent distractions from consistent and clear leadership at this important time, and degree of reputational damage internationally.
The treatment worked, we should all take some comfort from it now, and move on. It’s no longer a story let alone ‘the’ story.
It is him making it a bigger story , pontificating about his two nurses stood over him day and night whilst the peasants have to hope for the best. Whilst happy he is is well, a few days in ICU where no normal joe public would ever had a chance of getting to does not say life threatening. You Tories may be happy that your idol gets special treatment but I am not. Next time you hear the crap " we are all in it together " have a think instead of adopting the position. I believe in equality and someone who expects and takes preferential treatment is a sign of a rotten creep to me, you go on idolising your clay hero.
You are still burning with irrational anger Malc
And it saddens me
Nothing irrational G, can you put your hand on your heart and lie that he did not get preferential treatment and that he si now using it as political gain.
Yes I can and without hesitation and it is not a lie
Well the fact that he had two nurses permanently proves you to be I am afraid, I thought better of you and thought you would be for equality but seems not..
That is one of the most cowardly, wankerish, non apologies I’ve ever seen. Not even done well. James O’Brien-esque. What a twat
I put it up for two reasons. The first was the one you identified - the lack of humility in having got this so sensationally wrong is quite something.
The second is that if this is how thieves are going to fall out, this spells trouble for the government defending how it handled the start of the outbreak.
Lots of people seem keen to announce the scores before it's even half-time... It is going to be a long time before we really know who did well and who did badly. The raw statistics are never going to be fully comparable even after the statisticians have done their totting up and standardising, what with different countries having different age structures, urban/rural splits, interconnectivity, household sizes etc.
And even then that only tells us how well the decisions worked out in retrospect, but what the best decisions were with the information available at the time is going to be a subject of argument for generations to come. As a simple example, eggheads have long been split about the effectiveness - or counterproductiveness - of shutting schools during a pandemic, whether a football stadium is more or less risky than a pub etc. Who knows whether decisions on those matters were made for the right reasons - could well be political expendiency or need to be seen to be "doing something" or alternatively the need not to be seen to panic drove decisions in many coubtries, and in some cases I'm sure politicians chose what turned out to be right decision for all the wrong reasons.
Given what's happened in Singapore, I wouldn't want to be bigging up other countries for successfully stopping the epidemic in its tracks. Not yet. You've got to find a sustainable way to stop it forever if that's your game, and given where we stand with time to a vaccine and the accumulating damage to the economy, that's a long old game.
Yes. There is very little form to go on, the little we do have is very flimsy. I am astonished people are throwing their unconditional support behind any particular way of dealing with the pandemic to the extent they would be angry with any dissent from it.
Seems like virtually the only major European country that has done anything right, to read that, given how events have proceeded.
Yet Germany failed to contain the virus. It seemed more important for the authorities here not to inconvenience people going on skiing holidays than to seriously try to contain a deadly epidemic. Germany seeming so far to be doing a bit better than Britain isn't saying much. All the major European governments have been disappointing.
And why is Hammond indulging in lazy stereotypes? Not helpful, or funny if it's supposed to be a joke.
Taiwan looks to be doing the best so far.
New Zealand too. The message 'We go hard, we go early', very All Blacks. Didn't wait until people wanted to close things down, did it well before they'd even thought about it. As Jacinda Ardern said "“A strategy that sacrifices people in favour of supposedly a better economic outcome is a false dichotomy and has been shown to produce the worst of both worlds: loss of life and prolonged economic pain,”
Clear, forceful, truthful, compassionate.
New Zealand is doing relatively well, but still worse than Taiwan (276 cases per million against 16 cases per million). New Zealand also had the advantage of seeing what was happening in other countries which I'm not sure they really made the most of.
The UK had that advantage too. Then we wasted at least a week before locking down. Leaders lead, they don't wait for the people to agree with them. NZ did that and they closed the borders as well, all things which the UK refused to do because they thought people wouldn't like it.
The population density of NZ is also only twice that of the Scottish Highlands... what we call 'social-distancing measures' here is what they call Tuesday.
But not over the whole of the country. Auckland has 1.5 times the population of Birmingham. It is not as densley packed, but it is still a large city.
I see the Guardian are losing their shit over the government using patient data as part of the coronavirus response.
Imagine if they do try and use a tracking system like South Korea....but we aren't, we are going to go for an inefficient voluntary bluetooth location based app.
Government is working to the strategy that the PM set out while Boris is spending an indeterminate time recuperating.
What if the strategy needs to change?
Why would 'sit on arse until the peak passes' need to change?
So you are saying the government hasn't (needed to) change strategy since the beginning?
I think he's saying it won't need to change in the next few days/
Sorry to labour this, but @Charles said last week that Boris would resign if he was still not able to operate within six months. And the clock is ticking. Charles presumably wouldn't have said that if he thought we were being governed optimally now so at what point do we, as a nation, say we need 100% government? Now? After a few days? After three months?
I would say now is precisely the time we need a government operating at 100%.
Nor do I want Boris to resign. I want the government to outline, in some detail, who is making decisions, and with what authority, while Boris is hors de combat. At the moment, the government is operating under Boris' strategy while Boris rests up. But what if tomorrow that strategy needs to change?
And as such, the media is absolutely right to ask the "who is governing Britain" questions. Although of course they haven't been these past couple of days, which is a shame.
The government has outlined it. But you’ve chosen not to listen.
That is one of the most cowardly, wankerish, non apologies I’ve ever seen. Not even done well. James O’Brien-esque. What a twat
I put it up for two reasons. The first was the one you identified - the lack of humility in having got this so sensationally wrong is quite something.
The second is that if this is how thieves are going to fall out, this spells trouble for the government defending how it handled the start of the outbreak.
Who is he?
It’s not out of the question that people from the government might eventually end up apologising for not carrying on with the strategy they started with
I am curious to know where the fault for lack of PPE here lies, while certainly politicians should be doing a lot more to make it happen as far as I know the money is available. That therefore points to either procurement or distribution. I can imagine procurement being at fault because someone somewhere is sticking to non crisis procedures, or alternatively they keep getting outbid for masks.
A lot is made in China, which has been stealing stockpiles. There is also some distribution issues because the government took over a lot but was only used to going to hospitals. It’s also massively more in demand than expected so there is a general shortage.
But does anyone else find it distasteful that the union is saying “don’t work” to the nurses. I agree that the government should be going all they can to source more PPE - and I’m sure they are - but “don’t work” is not a constructive approach to the public health crisis we are in (and I suspect nurses on the ground will ignore their union)
To be fair to the union, this is actually consistent with health and safety advice given in other hazardous situations. If you put yourself at severe risk of harm in trying to rescue someone else from it - whether it's by blundering into a situation where you are not in full possession of the facts, through lack of vital safety equipment, or for any other reason - and you thereby end up coming to harm yourself, then you can make things worse by increasing the total number of casualties that have to be dealt with.
In practice, of course, people often being selfless, I suspect that you're right and most nurses will ignore such calls. They shouldn't have to make that choice, but it's bound to arise given the prevailing circumstances.
I agree with your second paragraph. And in normal circumstances I would agree with your first. But we are not in normal circumstances.
China is currently our only way of mitigating our PPE Gowns and testing crises and he agrees with PB Tory master strategists that we should be cutting lifelines
Germany would actually be a better source for those and if the Chinese government had shut wet markets and improved lab safety we would not need them in the first place
Only one manufacturer of the Gowns we need in the whole world according to BBC this morning (Chris Hopson Head of NHS Providers)
"China," you know the Country various posters on here wanted to burn bridges with 10 days ago
Apparently we are flying a plane full every day but still not sufficient and not always of sufficient quality.
Find a British factory that can knock them out. Order a squillion. Pay the Chinese company for a squillion items to cover IP licensing. Or something like that.
Find a factory. Find the raw materials. Find the tooling. Find the setup that produces a reliable product.
Steal the intellectual property rights from China.
There’s plenty of IPR around drapes & gowns in Europe
The patent expired for the SMS fabric ( most commonly used for drapes & gowns) some years ago. The actual converting of the fabric to drapes & gowns is still largely a 'cut & sew' operation undertaken in China, Vietnam & Mexico due to labour costs although there is some machinery to make simple drapes.
I see the Guardian are losing their shit over the government using patient data as part of the coronavirus response.
Imagine if they do try and use a tracking system like South Korea....but we aren't, we are going to go for an inefficient voluntary bluetooth location based app.
The company is run by a rightwing billionaire too.
I see the Guardian are losing their shit over the government using patient data as part of the coronavirus response.
Imagine if they do try and use a tracking system like South Korea....but we aren't, we are going to go for an inefficient voluntary bluetooth location based app.
The company is run by a rightwing billionaire, too.
Ticks all the boxes. Peter Thiel is the left's new Rupert Murdoch combined with Koch Brothers.
I’m finding a lot of the comments on here today about someone who has been in ICU very depressing and cold. Might be time for me to take another break from PB.
Don't hit your arse on the door on the way out loser.
Malc.
There are times when we all need to be kinder and no matter our politics to show some compassion. Nothing is achieved by always being angry. Time to tone down just a wee bit
I absolutely second that. Let us be in no doubt it is completely wrong to call into question Boris Johnson’s own character in his covid battle, nor question the political character of his government. Sure he had a test others who wanted one couldn’t get, and yes he may have been fast tracked to the oxygen mask without battling through 111 etc like the general public, but the fact trumping all inappropriate remarks of his opponents is If Johnson himself hoped and prayed and sought to be treated the same as the medical team treating him, Just same as anybody else in the country, he simply wouldn’t be allowed, because it is a matter of importance to ourselves as a nation to do what we can to prevent our nations PM dying, avoid obvious damage to national morale, prevent distractions from consistent and clear leadership at this important time, and degree of reputational damage internationally.
The treatment worked, we should all take some comfort from it now, and move on. It’s no longer a story let alone ‘the’ story.
It is him making it a bigger story , pontificating about his two nurses stood over him day and night whilst the peasants have to hope for the best. Whilst happy he is is well, a few days in ICU where no normal joe public would ever had a chance of getting to does not say life threatening. You Tories may be happy that your idol gets special treatment but I am not. Next time you hear the crap " we are all in it together " have a think instead of adopting the position. I believe in equality and someone who expects and takes preferential treatment is a sign of a rotten creep to me, you go on idolising your clay hero.
You are still burning with irrational anger Malc
And it saddens me
Nothing irrational G, can you put your hand on your heart and lie that he did not get preferential treatment and that he si now using it as political gain.
Yes I can and without hesitation and it is not a lie
Well the fact that he had two nurses permanently proves you to be I am afraid, I thought better of you and thought you would be for equality but seems not..
Over 48 hours he is bound to have had two nurses at the very least but your anger and vexation is coloured by your obsession with indpoendence and anyone who may stand in the way, rather than fair compassion for someone who has been very ill with a killer virus
Yes of all the days to rise up again Easter Sunday was surely the day for him to do it
It is vomit inducing , he has two nurses round the clock yet the plebs are lucky if they get one for 6-8 patients. Was not much wrong with him if he only had a couple of days in hospital that is for sure.
I think the reality probably lies somewhere between the second resurrection hyperbole, and your rather more cynical take on things, malcolm.
It is extremely bad taste to boast about having two nurses round the clock when lots of people's loved ones are dying in wards with hardly any or in nursing homes etc. The clown must know not everybody gets such VIP treatment. A bit of humility rather than triumphalism by Tories might be a bit more circumspect. Comparisons on here to him being Jesus are particularly nasty.
Unlike every syllable you write, which in the alternate reality you occupy you must imagine are not nasty at all.
Certainly nothing comparable to that for certain and nowhere near the obscene Tory utterings on here.
My dear Malcolm, you have not seen the depth of Tory obscenity. This is what we're like in public, in our Sunday best and on our best behaviour
I believe you as well, bet you are spit roasting an orphan as you post.
That is one of the most cowardly, wankerish, non apologies I’ve ever seen. Not even done well. James O’Brien-esque. What a twat
I put it up for two reasons. The first was the one you identified - the lack of humility in having got this so sensationally wrong is quite something.
The second is that if this is how thieves are going to fall out, this spells trouble for the government defending how it handled the start of the outbreak.
Who is he?
It’s not out of the question that people from the government might eventually end up apologising for not carrying on with the strategy they started with
Government is working to the strategy that the PM set out while Boris is spending an indeterminate time recuperating.
What if the strategy needs to change?
Why would 'sit on arse until the peak passes' need to change?
So you are saying the government hasn't (needed to) change strategy since the beginning?
I think he's saying it won't need to change in the next few days/
Sorry to labour this, but @Charles said last week that Boris would resign if he was still not able to operate within six months. And the clock is ticking. Charles presumably wouldn't have said that if he thought we were being governed optimally now so at what point do we, as a nation, say we need 100% government? Now? After a few days? After three months?
I would say now is precisely the time we need a government operating at 100%.
Nor do I want Boris to resign. I want the government to outline, in some detail, who is making decisions, and with what authority, while Boris is hors de combat. At the moment, the government is operating under Boris' strategy while Boris rests up. But what if tomorrow that strategy needs to change?
And as such, the media is absolutely right to ask the "who is governing Britain" questions. Although of course they haven't been these past couple of days, which is a shame.
The government has outlined it. But you’ve chosen not to listen.
I think I've set out my views on this quite enough Charles. We disagree. All's good.
I see the Guardian are losing their shit over the government using patient data as part of the coronavirus response.
Imagine if they do try and use a tracking system like South Korea....but we aren't, we are going to go for an inefficient voluntary bluetooth location based app.
The company is run by a rightwing billionaire, too.
Ticks all the boxes. Peter Thiel is the left's new Rupert Murdoch combined with Koch Brothers.
They also have another splash on the government performing simulations of the outcomes of varying different scenarios, saying somehow this implies it is government policy, or they are hiding their true policy. I'm sure there were plenty of simulations of the number of deaths in a war with Russia during the cold war, that didn't make it government policy to ensure there was a war.
Yes of all the days to rise up again Easter Sunday was surely the day for him to do it
It is vomit inducing , he has two nurses round the clock yet the plebs are lucky if they get one for 6-8 patients. Was not much wrong with him if he only had a couple of days in hospital that is for sure.
I think the reality probably lies somewhere between the second resurrection hyperbole, and your rather more cynical take on things, malcolm.
It is extremely bad taste to boast about having two nurses round the clock when lots of people's loved ones are dying in wards with hardly any or in nursing homes etc. The clown must know not everybody gets such VIP treatment. A bit of humility rather than triumphalism by Tories might be a bit more circumspect. Comparisons on here to him being Jesus are particularly nasty.
That’s standard staffing ratio for ICU
Malc..if you want to slag off someone get your facts right first.. at the moment you are opening your mouth and removing all doubt as to the inanity of your comments
I’m finding a lot of the comments on here today about someone who has been in ICU very depressing and cold. Might be time for me to take another break from PB.
Don't hit your arse on the door on the way out loser.
Malc.
There are times when we all need to be kinder and no matter our politics to show some compassion. Nothing is achieved by always being angry. Time to tone down just a wee bit
I absolutely second that. Let us be in no doubt it is completely wrong to call into question Boris Johnson’s own character in his covid battle, nor question the political character of his government. Sure he had a test others who wanted one couldn’t get, and yes he may have been fast tracked to the oxygen mask without battling through 111 etc like the general public, but the fact trumping all inappropriate remarks of his opponents is If Johnson himself hoped and prayed and sought to be treated the same as the medical team treating him, Just same as anybody else in the country, he simply wouldn’t be allowed, because it is a matter of importance to ourselves as a nation to do what we can to prevent our nations PM dying, avoid obvious damage to national morale, prevent distractions from consistent and clear leadership at this important time, and degree of reputational damage internationally.
The treatment worked, we should all take some comfort from it now, and move on. It’s no longer a story let alone ‘the’ story.
It is him making it a bigger story , pontificating about his two nurses stood over him day and night whilst the peasants have to hope for the best. Whilst happy he is is well, a few days in ICU where no normal joe public would ever had a chance of getting to does not say life threatening. You Tories may be happy that your idol gets special treatment but I am not. Next time you hear the crap " we are all in it together " have a think instead of adopting the position. I believe in equality and someone who expects and takes preferential treatment is a sign of a rotten creep to me, you go on idolising your clay hero.
You are still burning with irrational anger Malc
And it saddens me
Nothing irrational G, can you put your hand on your heart and lie that he did not get preferential treatment and that he si now using it as political gain.
Yes I can and without hesitation and it is not a lie
Well the fact that he had two nurses permanently proves you to be I am afraid, I thought better of you and thought you would be for equality but seems not..
Over 48 hours he is bound to have had two nurses at the very least but your anger and vexation is coloured by your obsession with indpoendence and anyone who may stand in the way, rather than fair compassion for someone who has been very ill with a killer virus
Now you are talking crap G, he clearly said he had two nurses at his bedside for 48 hours, your hero worship has addled your brain I am afraid. I will say no more on the topic as you do not want to see the truth.
I see the Guardian are losing their shit over the government using patient data as part of the coronavirus response.
Imagine if they do try and use a tracking system like South Korea....but we aren't, we are going to go for an inefficient voluntary bluetooth location based app.
The company is run by a rightwing billionaire, too.
Ticks all the boxes. Peter Thiel is the left's new Rupert Murdoch combined with Koch Brothers.
They also have another splash on the government performing simulations of the outcomes of varying different scenarios, saying somehow this implies it is government policy, or they are hiding their true policy. I'm sure there were plenty of simulations of the number of deaths in a war with Russia during the cold war, that didn't make it government policy to ensure there was a war.
"While it does not appear the herd immunity simulation took place, its inclusion in a list of possible interventions raises questions about the government’s stance on the policy."
Does it?...they put down a load of ideas, and then didn't even run a simulation on it. Actually disappointed they didn't, as surely it is a good thing to at least see what the hell the impact would be.
It is why I am very uncomfortable with this desire to have absolutely everything ever discussed revealed. It stops people from ever even suggesting something from fear it will later be made public.
They famously had to retrain Korean Airlines staff after a number of disasters, because the culture of never challenging authorities led to a significant number of crashes and mishaps.
I’m finding a lot of the comments on here today about someone who has been in ICU very depressing and cold. Might be time for me to take another break from PB.
Don't hit your arse on the door on the way out loser.
Malc.
There are times when we all need to be kinder and no matter our politics to show some compassion. Nothing is achieved by always being angry. Time to tone down just a wee bit
I absolutely second that. Let us be in no doubt it is completely wrong to call into question Boris Johnson’s own character in his covid battle, nor question the political character of his government. Sure he had a test others who wanted one couldn’t get, and yes he may have been fast tracked to the oxygen mask without battling through 111 etc like the general public, but the fact trumping all inappropriate remarks of his opponents is If Johnson himself hoped and prayed and sought to be treated the same as the medical team treating him, Just same as anybody else in the country, he simply wouldn’t be allowed, because it is a matter of importance to ourselves as a nation to do what we can to prevent our nations PM dying, avoid obvious damage to national morale, prevent distractions from consistent and clear leadership at this important time, and degree of reputational damage internationally.
The treatment worked, we should all take some comfort from it now, and move on. It’s no longer a story let alone ‘the’ story.
It is him making it a bigger story , pontificating about his two nurses stood over him day and night whilst the peasants have to hope for the best. Whilst happy he is is well, a few days in ICU where no normal joe public would ever had a chance of getting to does not say life threatening. You Tories may be happy that your idol gets special treatment but I am not. Next time you hear the crap " we are all in it together " have a think instead of adopting the position. I believe in equality and someone who expects and takes preferential treatment is a sign of a rotten creep to me, you go on idolising your clay hero.
You are still burning with irrational anger Malc
And it saddens me
Nothing irrational G, can you put your hand on your heart and lie that he did not get preferential treatment and that he si now using it as political gain.
Yes I can and without hesitation and it is not a lie
Well the fact that he had two nurses permanently proves you to be I am afraid, I thought better of you and thought you would be for equality but seems not..
Over 48 hours he is bound to have had two nurses at the very least but your anger and vexation is coloured by your obsession with indpoendence and anyone who may stand in the way, rather than fair compassion for someone who has been very ill with a killer virus
Now you are talking crap G, he clearly said he had two nurses at his bedside for 48 hours, your hero worship has addled your brain I am afraid. I will say no more on the topic as you do not want to see the truth.
Isn't that typically the case in intensive care? The clue is in the name...
200 down from yesterday, sad news for the relatives but UK curve starting to flatten which is good news
This pattern happens every single week.
Up until last weekend the figure was doubling every 3.5 days, had the curve not flattened and that trend continued there would have been 2,500 deaths announced today
The number of deaths anounced today in the UK was 733, on Tuesday everyone was shocked that the figure hit 786. You really are clutching at straws if you think that one day's figure of 733 deaths in the middle of a long bank holiday weekend, in a time series that clearly dips over the weekend is good news.
I see the Guardian are losing their shit over the government using patient data as part of the coronavirus response.
Imagine if they do try and use a tracking system like South Korea....but we aren't, we are going to go for an inefficient voluntary bluetooth location based app.
The company is run by a rightwing billionaire, too.
Ticks all the boxes. Peter Thiel is the left's new Rupert Murdoch combined with Koch Brothers.
They also have another splash on the government performing simulations of the outcomes of varying different scenarios, saying somehow this implies it is government policy, or they are hiding their true policy. I'm sure there were plenty of simulations of the number of deaths in a war with Russia during the cold war, that didn't make it government policy to ensure there was a war.
"While it does not appear the herd immunity simulation took place, its inclusion in a list of possible interventions raises questions about the government’s stance on the policy."
Does it?...they put down a load of ideas, and then didn't even run a simulation on it.
It is why I am very uncomfortable with this desire to have absolutely everything ever discussed revealed. It stops people from ever even suggesting something from fear it will later be made public.
They famously had to retrain Korean Airlines staff after a number of disasters, because the culture of never challenging authorities led to a significant number of crashes and mishaps.
Heaven forbid the government makes an informed decision based on all possible outcomes. No doubt they'd be complaining had the government restricted its simulations to only those that exactly match current policy.
I see @TOPPING is back calling for dictatorship in the name of “efficiency” on the previous thread. We have a great decision making process. Minor decisions can be made by ministers. Major decisions get referred to Cabinet. Normally, if there is a particularly controversial decision, the PM can force his/her opinion through by abusing the sum-up procedure (Thatcher’s favourite tactic) or by directly investing political capital.
At the moment it is all working as normal. There haven’t been any controversial decisions since BJ went into isolation. The next one - the review of lockdown - isn’t controversial as it will be an extension. May be the science will be less clear in 4 weeks time when there is the next review, in which case hopefully Boris will be better by then.
@BluestBlue re: property owners without the cash pay a property tax, sorry but these are not normal times. Those with wealth must contribute more - taxing property is the easiest way to do that (and do a roll up as a first lien if needed). But I would make it explicitly to pay back the “Corona debt” - a solidarity charge if you like - and not have it as part of normal government spending. I don’t have a problem per @MaxPB charging more for second homes
I see you have misunderstood what I said. Which is strange because it was fairly straightforward.
The PM is off games for the foreseeable future. You said of course he would resign if he were going to be unfit for six months, presumably because you think we are not being governed optimally. So as we are not being governed optimally, when should he step down?
We are being governed as the system requires. The PM only sets direction - at the moment there is only one direction: beat this fucker
I agree.
I understand the PM has been playing games. Soduku in fact.
‘The movies the PM has been watching are said to include Withnail And I, starring Richard E Grant, and the Lord Of The Rings trilogy. He has also been doing sudoku.’
I have been in clubs and gigs where they want you out so they can move on, hence horrible blaring noise over sound system. Is Richard E Grant, sudoku and the botched rings trilogy the NHS equivalent?
There is an argument here the supposed power vacuum at the top has been a non story all along. Whilst he’s recuperating at the Chequers Sanatorium, there 99% likelihood the government strategy won’t have to change. There are no decisions to make. For the next fortnight it is steady as she goes Mr Chekov. In the 1% chance something happens that needs a decision, Martian invasion, 8.4 earthquake in Yorkshire, it would be so big he would have to come back ready or not.
If the NHS truly wanted to lay on special treatment for the PM they would have given him counter strike to play with.
China is currently our only way of mitigating our PPE Gowns and testing crises and he agrees with PB Tory master strategists that we should be cutting lifelines
Germany would actually be a better source for those and if the Chinese government had shut wet markets and improved lab safety we would not need them in the first place
Only one manufacturer of the Gowns we need in the whole world according to BBC this morning (Chris Hopson Head of NHS Providers)
"China," you know the Country various posters on here wanted to burn bridges with 10 days ago
Apparently we are flying a plane full every day but still not sufficient and not always of sufficient quality.
Find a British factory that can knock them out. Order a squillion. Pay the Chinese company for a squillion items to cover IP licensing. Or something like that.
Find a factory. Find the raw materials. Find the tooling. Find the setup that produces a reliable product.
Steal the intellectual property rights from China.
There’s plenty of IPR around drapes & gowns in Europe
The patent expired for the SMS fabric ( most commonly used for drapes & gowns) some years ago. The actual converting of the fabric to drapes & gowns is still largely a 'cut & sew' operation undertaken in China, Vietnam & Mexico due to labour costs although there is some machinery to make simple drapes.
I was being sarcastic.
During WWI, IIRC, the Vickers carefully tallied up the usage of the Krupp patent fuse in British artillery shells. There was quite an issue about the payments after the war. I dimly remember that they were sending payments to Krupp after 1914....
That is one of the most cowardly, wankerish, non apologies I’ve ever seen. Not even done well. James O’Brien-esque. What a twat
I put it up for two reasons. The first was the one you identified - the lack of humility in having got this so sensationally wrong is quite something.
The second is that if this is how thieves are going to fall out, this spells trouble for the government defending how it handled the start of the outbreak.
Who is he?
It’s not out of the question that people from the government might eventually end up apologising for not carrying on with the strategy they started with
He is a doctor. And a commedian. He was part of a duo in the 90's called Struck off and Die. He or the other one stood against William Waldergrave the Health Secretary in Bristol West, the constituency where he worked.
Imagine the government had pursued the ‘herd immunity’ strategy, and the result to date was 10,612 deaths. How many do you think people would say would have been saved by a lockdown?
I’m finding a lot of the comments on here today about someone who has been in ICU very depressing and cold. Might be time for me to take another break from PB.
Don't hit your arse on the door on the way out loser.
Malc.
There are times when we all need to be kinder and no matter our politics to show some compassion. Nothing is achieved by always being angry. Time to tone down just a wee bit
I absolutely second that. Let us be in no doubt it is completely wrong to call into question Boris Johnson’s own character in his covid battle, nor question the political character of his government. Sure he had a test others who wanted one couldn’t get, and yes he may have been fast tracked to the oxygen mask without battling through 111 etc like the general public, but the fact trumping all inappropriate remarks of his opponents is If Johnson himself hoped and prayed and sought to be treated the same as the medical team treating him, Just same as anybody else in the country, he simply wouldn’t be allowed, because it is a matter of importance to ourselves as a nation to do what we can to prevent our nations PM dying, avoid obvious damage to national morale, prevent distractions from consistent and clear leadership at this important time, and degree of reputational damage internationally.
The treatment worked, we should all take some comfort from it now, and move on. It’s no longer a story let alone ‘the’ story.
It is him making it a bigger story , pontificating about his two nurses stood over him day and night whilst the peasants have to hope for the best. Whilst happy he is is well, a few days in ICU where no normal joe public would ever had a chance of getting to does not say life threatening. You Tories may be happy that your idol gets special treatment but I am not. Next time you hear the crap " we are all in it together " have a think instead of adopting the position. I believe in equality and someone who expects and takes preferential treatment is a sign of a rotten creep to me, you go on idolising your clay hero.
You are still burning with irrational anger Malc
And it saddens me
Nothing irrational G, can you put your hand on your heart and lie that he did not get preferential treatment and that he si now using it as political gain.
Yes I can and without hesitation and it is not a lie
Well the fact that he had two nurses permanently proves you to be I am afraid, I thought better of you and thought you would be for equality but seems not..
Over 48 hours he is bound to have had two nurses at the very least but your anger and vexation is coloured by your obsession with indpoendence and anyone who may stand in the way, rather than fair compassion for someone who has been very ill with a killer virus
Now you are talking crap G, he clearly said he had two nurses at his bedside for 48 hours, your hero worship has addled your brain I am afraid. I will say no more on the topic as you do not want to see the truth.
Maybe I just want to see more compassion across the political divide and less hate
Don't hit your arse on the door on the way out loser.
Malcolm, the above post amply demonstrates that you are barely one level above troll. You go on later in the thread to pontificate about “equality”? What sort of egalitarian demeans and insults people he debates with routinely and in such terms daily, probably hourly? Exactly who appointed you arbiter of who is and who is not a “loser”? You cant’t believe in equality in any real sense because to do so would demonstrate some level of respect in your fellow man, whereas you demonstrate none. The superior attitude and behaviour you display on here can better be described as elitist.
Imagine the government had pursued the ‘herd immunity’ strategy, and the result to date was 10,612 deaths. How many do you think people would say would have been saved by a lockdown?
A few thousand, based on the reduction claimed in the various studies? Although the estimates would be made without really knowing how far it had spread.
I believe the government is relying on the best scientific and medical advice and it has the best chance of being right - even if it's not. Had they not done that, the criticism would have been louder and deserved.
They may tinker with the date and extent of relaxation for political reasons, every government would do that. The Labour party would too. of course. They will also try to score political points as would the Tories if the roles were reversed.
Constructive criticism means the opposition will criticise with hindsight rather than make predictions themselves. It's all very childish.
Not everything has gone perfectly, and it will never do so.
I can see the opposition having a moan if the Nightingale hospitals outside London are not fully used. They could have been used for cancer patients and some of the more routine patients. Isn't hindsight wonderful if that proves to be the case.
Would I trust media journalists with running a sweet shop? I wouldn't trust them to find their own arses with a roadmap and a compass.
I worry about our journalists. They're entitled to ask probing questions but is it too much to ask that they understand the basics of the science before they ask questions about it?
There are questions to be asked, but they concentrate on showing off like seven-year-olds. "My Mammy says you smell of poo, will you say sorry?"
Even worse, they don't listen to the answers, so we end up with them asking the same question over and over again. Examples … "Can you guarantee that tomorrow the world will be lovely and no one will ever die again?"
the polite answer? "I refer you to my previous answer, and the previous one, and the one before that." The less polite one … "Don't be a cnut, have a day off now and again."
I learn far more when the journalists just read out the viewers' questions. It's all many arts graduates are good for.
200 down from yesterday, sad news for the relatives but UK curve starting to flatten which is good news
This pattern happens every single week.
Up until last weekend the figure was doubling every 3.5 days, had the curve not flattened and that trend continued there would have been 2,500 deaths announced today
The lower figures today have nothing to do with the curve flattening and everything to do with the weekend effect that happens with the death reporting.
I’m finding a lot of the comments on here today about someone who has been in ICU very depressing and cold. Might be time for me to take another break from PB.
Don't hit your arse on the door on the way out loser.
Malc.
There are times when we all need to be kinder and no matter our politics to show some compassion. Nothing is achieved by always being angry. Time to tone down just a wee bit
I absolutely second that. Let us be in no doubt it is completely wrong to call into question Boris Johnson’s own character in his covid battle, nor question the political character of his government. Sure he had a test others who wanted one couldn’t get, and yes he may have been fast tracked to the oxygen mask without battling through 111 etc like the general public, but the fact trumping all inappropriate remarks of his opponents is If Johnson himself hoped and prayed and sought to be treated the same as the medical team treating him, Just same as anybody else in the country, he simply wouldn’t be allowed, because it is a matter of importance to ourselves as a nation to do what we can to prevent our nations PM dying, avoid obvious damage to national morale, prevent distractions from consistent and clear leadership at this important time, and degree of reputational damage internationally.
The treatment worked, we should all take some comfort from it now, and move on. It’s no longer a story let alone ‘the’ story.
It is him making it a bigger story , pontificating about his two nurses stood over him day and night whilst the peasants have to hope for the best. Whilst happy he is is well, a few days in ICU where no normal joe public would ever had a chance of getting to does not say life threatening. You Tories may be happy that your idol gets special treatment but I am not. Next time you hear the crap " we are all in it together " have a think instead of adopting the position. I believe in equality and someone who expects and takes preferential treatment is a sign of a rotten creep to me, you go on idolising your clay hero.
You are still burning with irrational anger Malc
And it saddens me
Nothing irrational G, can you put your hand on your heart and lie that he did not get preferential treatment and that he si now using it as political gain.
Yes I can and without hesitation and it is not a lie
Well the fact that he had two nurses permanently proves you to be I am afraid, I thought better of you and thought you would be for equality but seems not..
Over 48 hours he is bound to have had two nurses at the very least but your anger and vexation is coloured by your obsession with indpoendence and anyone who may stand in the way, rather than fair compassion for someone who has been very ill with a killer virus
Now you are talking crap G, he clearly said he had two nurses at his bedside for 48 hours, your hero worship has addled your brain I am afraid. I will say no more on the topic as you do not want to see the truth.
Isn't that typically the case in intensive care? The clue is in the name...
If you had read the posts where people who had experienced it you would have seen that it is not the case. It was preferential treatment.
I see the Guardian are losing their shit over the government using patient data as part of the coronavirus response.
Imagine if they do try and use a tracking system like South Korea....but we aren't, we are going to go for an inefficient voluntary bluetooth location based app.
The company is run by a rightwing billionaire, too.
Ticks all the boxes. Peter Thiel is the left's new Rupert Murdoch combined with Koch Brothers.
They also have another splash on the government performing simulations of the outcomes of varying different scenarios, saying somehow this implies it is government policy, or they are hiding their true policy. I'm sure there were plenty of simulations of the number of deaths in a war with Russia during the cold war, that didn't make it government policy to ensure there was a war.
"While it does not appear the herd immunity simulation took place, its inclusion in a list of possible interventions raises questions about the government’s stance on the policy."
Does it?...they put down a load of ideas, and then didn't even run a simulation on it.
It is why I am very uncomfortable with this desire to have absolutely everything ever discussed revealed. It stops people from ever even suggesting something from fear it will later be made public.
They famously had to retrain Korean Airlines staff after a number of disasters, because the culture of never challenging authorities led to a significant number of crashes and mishaps.
Heaven forbid the government makes an informed decision based on all possible outcomes. No doubt they'd be complaining had the government restricted its simulations to only those that exactly match current policy.
I’m finding a lot of the comments on here today about someone who has been in ICU very depressing and cold. Might be time for me to take another break from PB.
Don't hit your arse on the door on the way out loser.
Malc.
There are times when we all need to be kinder and no matter our politics to show some compassion. Nothing is achieved by always being angry. Time to tone down just a wee bit
I absolutely second that. Let us be in no doubt it is completely wrong to call into question Boris Johnson’s own character in his covid battle, nor question the political character of his government. Sure he had a test others who wanted one couldn’t get, and yes he may have been fast tracked to the oxygen mask without battling through 111 etc like the general public, but the fact trumping all inappropriate remarks of his opponents is If Johnson himself hoped and prayed and sought to be treated the same as the medical team treating him, Just same as anybody else in the country, he simply wouldn’t be allowed, because it is a matter of importance to ourselves as a nation to do what we can to prevent our nations PM dying, avoid obvious damage to national morale, prevent distractions from consistent and clear leadership at this important time, and degree of reputational damage internationally.
The treatment worked, we should all take some comfort from it now, and move on. It’s no longer a story let alone ‘the’ story.
It is him making it a bigger story , pontificating about his two nurses stood over him day and night whilst the peasants have to hope for the best. Whilst happy he is is well, a few days in ICU where no normal joe public would ever had a chance of getting to does not say life threatening. You Tories may be happy that your idol gets special treatment but I am not. Next time you hear the crap " we are all in it together " have a think instead of adopting the position. I believe in equality and someone who expects and takes preferential treatment is a sign of a rotten creep to me, you go on idolising your clay hero.
You are still burning with irrational anger Malc
And it saddens me
Nothing irrational G, can you put your hand on your heart and lie that he did not get preferential treatment and that he si now using it as political gain.
Yes I can and without hesitation and it is not a lie
Well the fact that he had two nurses permanently proves you to be I am afraid, I thought better of you and thought you would be for equality but seems not..
Over 48 hours he is bound to have had two nurses at the very least but your anger and vexation is coloured by your obsession with indpoendence and anyone who may stand in the way, rather than fair compassion for someone who has been very ill with a killer virus
Now you are talking crap G, he clearly said he had two nurses at his bedside for 48 hours, your hero worship has addled your brain I am afraid. I will say no more on the topic as you do not want to see the truth.
Isn't that typically the case in intensive care? The clue is in the name...
If you had read the posts where people who had experienced it you would have seen that it is not the case. It was preferential treatment.
Have you considered that they may not have actually been at his bedside for that long without doing anything else? For starters, they need to sleep. What is true is that in intensive care there is always someone around monitoring your condition.
Officially we have had 10612 deaths. The number is actually far higher; patients dying in the community or in care homes are not being counted, and in some parts of the country coroners are refusing to accept MCCDs (Medical certificates of cause of death) signed by GPs if they give Covid 19 as either the cause of death or a contributory factor. Hospital cases aren't counted if the tests are negative (as they are in about 30% of clinical typical cases). And of patients already in hospital, 50% of those on ventilators will, sadly die. It will be amazing if we have less than 50,000 deaths, ad that excludes the patients with other diseases who won't be sent into hospital in present circumstances (e.g coronaries, strokes, etc) Meanwhile little progress on getting 100,000 tests per day, PPE in short supply. This has been catastrophic mismanagement
200 down from yesterday, sad news for the relatives but UK curve starting to flatten which is good news
This pattern happens every single week.
Up until last weekend the figure was doubling every 3.5 days, had the curve not flattened and that trend continued there would have been 2,500 deaths announced today
The lower figures today have nothing to do with the curve flattening and everything to do with the weekend effect that happens with the death reporting.
The death numbers are a lag factor and will be last to flatten. Numbers in hospital is a much better guide. On this level we have definitely flattened the curve
Don't hit your arse on the door on the way out loser.
Malcolm, the above post amply demonstrates that you are barely one level above troll. You go on later in the thread to pontificate about “equality”? What sort of egalitarian demeans and insults people he debates with routinely and in such terms daily, probably hourly? Exactly who appointed you arbiter of who is and who is not a “loser”? You cant’t believe in equality in any real sense because to do so would demonstrate some level of respect in your fellow man, whereas you demonstrate none. The superior attitude and behaviour you display on here can better be described as elitist.
I believe the government is relying on the best scientific and medical advice and it has the best chance of being right - even if it's not. Had they not done that, the criticism would have been louder and deserved.
They may tinker with the date and extent of relaxation for political reasons, every government would do that. The Labour party would too. of course. They will also try to score political points as would the Tories if the roles were reversed.
Constructive criticism means the opposition will criticise with hindsight rather than make predictions themselves. It's all very childish.
Not everything has gone perfectly, and it will never do so.
I can see the opposition having a moan if the Nightingale hospitals outside London are not fully used. They could have been used for cancer patients and some of the more routine patients. Isn't hindsight wonderful if that proves to be the case.
Would I trust media journalists with running a sweet shop? I wouldn't trust them to find their own arses with a roadmap and a compass.
My *understanding* is that the Nightingale hospitals are setup quite specifically for dealing with this disease - they are not equipped as general hospitals.
I’m finding a lot of the comments on here today about someone who has been in ICU very depressing and cold. Might be time for me to take another break from PB.
Don't hit your arse on the door on the way out loser.
Malc.
There are times when we all need to be kinder and no matter our politics to show some compassion. Nothing is achieved by always being angry. Time to tone down just a wee bit
I absolutely second that. Let us be in no doubt it is completely wrong to call into question Boris Johnson’s own character in his covid battle, nor question the political character of his government. Sure he had a test others who wanted one couldn’t get, and yes he may have been fast tracked to the oxygen mask without battling through 111 etc like the general public, but the fact trumping all inappropriate remarks of his opponents is If Johnson himself hoped and prayed and sought to be treated the same as the medical team treating him, Just same as anybody else in the country, he simply wouldn’t be allowed, because it is a matter of importance to ourselves as a nation to do what we can to prevent our nations PM dying, avoid obvious damage to national morale, prevent distractions from consistent and clear leadership at this important time, and degree of reputational damage internationally.
The treatment worked, we should all take some comfort from it now, and move on. It’s no longer a story let alone ‘the’ story.
It is him making it a bigger story , pontificating about his two nurses stood over him day and night whilst the peasants have to hope for the best. Whilst happy he is is well, a few days in ICU where no normal joe public would ever had a chance of getting to does not say life threatening. You Tories may be happy that your idol gets special treatment but I am not. Next time you hear the crap " we are all in it together " have a think instead of adopting the position. I believe in equality and someone who expects and takes preferential treatment is a sign of a rotten creep to me, you go on idolising your clay hero.
You are still burning with irrational anger Malc
And it saddens me
Nothing irrational G, can you put your hand on your heart and lie that he did not get preferential treatment and that he si now using it as political gain.
Yes I can and without hesitation and it is not a lie
Well the fact that he had two nurses permanently proves you to be I am afraid, I thought better of you and thought you would be for equality but seems not..
Over 48 hours he is bound to have had two nurses at the very least but your anger and vexation is coloured by your obsession with indpoendence and anyone who may stand in the way, rather than fair compassion for someone who has been very ill with a killer virus
Now you are talking crap G, he clearly said he had two nurses at his bedside for 48 hours, your hero worship has addled your brain I am afraid. I will say no more on the topic as you do not want to see the truth.
Maybe I just want to see more compassion across the political divide and less hate
You imagine hate G, it is just anger that some people get preferential treatment, hate does not come into it.
I’m finding a lot of the comments on here today about someone who has been in ICU very depressing and cold. Might be time for me to take another break from PB.
Don't hit your arse on the door on the way out loser.
Malc.
There are times when we all need to be kinder and no matter our politics to show some compassion. Nothing is achieved by always being angry. Time to tone down just a wee bit
I absolutely second that. Let us be in no doubt it is completely wrong to call into question Boris Johnson’s own character in his covid battle, nor question the political character of his government. Sure he had a test others who wanted one couldn’t get, and yes he may have been fast tracked to the oxygen mask without battling through 111 etc like the general public, but the fact trumping all inappropriate remarks of his opponents is If Johnson himself hoped and prayed and sought to be treated the same as the medical team treating him, Just same as anybody else in the country, he simply wouldn’t be allowed, because it is a matter of importance to ourselves as a nation to do what we can to prevent our nations PM dying, avoid obvious damage to national morale, prevent distractions from consistent and clear leadership at this important time, and degree of reputational damage internationally.
The treatment worked, we should all take some comfort from it now, and move on. It’s no longer a story let alone ‘the’ story.
It is him making it a bigger story , pontificating about his two nurses stood over him day and night whilst the peasants have to hope for the best. Whilst happy he is is well, a few days in ICU where no normal joe public would ever had a chance of getting to does not say life threatening. You Tories may be happy that your idol gets special treatment but I am not. Next time you hear the crap " we are all in it together " have a think instead of adopting the position. I believe in equality and someone who expects and takes preferential treatment is a sign of a rotten creep to me, you go on idolising your clay hero.
You are still burning with irrational anger Malc
And it saddens me
Nothing irrational G, can you put your hand on your heart and lie that he did not get preferential treatment and that he si now using it as political gain.
Yes I can and without hesitation and it is not a lie
Well the fact that he had two nurses permanently proves you to be I am afraid, I thought better of you and thought you would be for equality but seems not..
Over 48 hours he is bound to have had two nurses at the very least but your anger and vexation is coloured by your obsession with indpoendence and anyone who may stand in the way, rather than fair compassion for someone who has been very ill with a killer virus
Now you are talking crap G, he clearly said he had two nurses at his bedside for 48 hours, your hero worship has addled your brain I am afraid. I will say no more on the topic as you do not want to see the truth.
Maybe I just want to see more compassion across the political divide and less hate
You imagine hate G, it is just anger that some people get preferential treatment, hate does not come into it.
I don't think that justifies bandying about insults left right and center.
I believe the government is relying on the best scientific and medical advice and it has the best chance of being right - even if it's not. Had they not done that, the criticism would have been louder and deserved.
They may tinker with the date and extent of relaxation for political reasons, every government would do that. The Labour party would too. of course. They will also try to score political points as would the Tories if the roles were reversed.
Constructive criticism means the opposition will criticise with hindsight rather than make predictions themselves. It's all very childish.
Not everything has gone perfectly, and it will never do so.
I can see the opposition having a moan if the Nightingale hospitals outside London are not fully used. They could have been used for cancer patients and some of the more routine patients. Isn't hindsight wonderful if that proves to be the case.
Would I trust media journalists with running a sweet shop? I wouldn't trust them to find their own arses with a roadmap and a compass.
Worth distinguishing strategy from implementation. The big calls strategically are the ones where there's a lot of technocratic input and if the eggheads are agreed (a) it's actually an easy choice for gvt to follow their advice, (b) even if it goes wrong they have a fair degree of political cover as they deferred to the experts. Now if the experts become seriously split eg about exit strategy or how long lockdownsbcan stay in place for, that becomes a tougher call for the politicos.
The practical job of implementing the strategy is where there is plenty of room for things to go wrong. PPE logistics comes under this subheading but so do things like how harsh the police need to be, what jobs count as "essential", what do you do about replacing school exams, how do you ensure vulnerable groups eg with no recourse to public funds or in unusual work situations don't slip through the gaps, how do you get food and medicine to those who are shielding...
Since we are almost trying to redesign how society works from scratch and nobody has done this before there are a million ways to cock up the operational side and I don't think any government could expect to be perfect. I'm not sure whether it's these mistakes that voters will punish more severely than the overarching "big calls" as a lot would depend on personal experience or what anecdotes they're exposed to but it seems plausible to me.
200 down from yesterday, sad news for the relatives but UK curve starting to flatten which is good news
This pattern happens every single week.
Up until last weekend the figure was doubling every 3.5 days, had the curve not flattened and that trend continued there would have been 2,500 deaths announced today
The lower figures today have nothing to do with the curve flattening and everything to do with the weekend effect that happens with the death reporting.
The death numbers are a lag factor and will be last to flatten. Numbers in hospital is a much better guide. On this level we have definitely flattened the curve
Agreed. And the numbers in hospital should also be less sensitive to reporting challenges relating to Bank Holidays / weekends etc. And yes, on this measure the numbers have stabilised (e.g., a small reduction of 156 cases (0.8%) between April 10 and April 11). This should feed through into reported hospital deaths; just harder from the reported numbers to know when this has/will happen.
200 down from yesterday, sad news for the relatives but UK curve starting to flatten which is good news
This pattern happens every single week.
Up until last weekend the figure was doubling every 3.5 days, had the curve not flattened and that trend continued there would have been 2,500 deaths announced today
The lower figures today have nothing to do with the curve flattening and everything to do with the weekend effect that happens with the death reporting.
The death numbers are a lag factor and will be last to flatten. Numbers in hospital is a much better guide. On this level we have definitely flattened the curve
Oh, I have no doubt we are curve flattening, I'm just picking up on HYUFD's number bollocks.
Officially we have had 10612 deaths. The number is actually far higher; patients dying in the community or in care homes are not being counted, and in some parts of the country coroners are refusing to accept MCCDs (Medical certificates of cause of death) signed by GPs if they give Covid 19 as either the cause of death or a contributory factor. Hospital cases aren't counted if the tests are negative (as they are in about 30% of clinical typical cases). And of patients already in hospital, 50% of those on ventilators will, sadly die. It will be amazing if we have less than 50,000 deaths, ad that excludes the patients with other diseases who won't be sent into hospital in present circumstances (e.g coronaries, strokes, etc) Meanwhile little progress on getting 100,000 tests per day, PPE in short supply. This has been catastrophic mismanagement
Coroners do not have the power to reject death certificates. They have the power to open an inquest and possibly find differently.
The guidance issued to doctors signing death certificates is that if a test result is available, they have a duty to use their clinical judgment as to the cause(s) of death. If they think that includes COVID19, they have to put it down. Since COVID19 is a notifiable disease it is mandatory to report it.
I have no problem with the PM getting special treatment . My issue is with the press coverage and the almost hero status he’s being afforded with for recovering .
A lot of people recover , they’re not hero’s they just recovered ! And his calling out two foreign nurses when his rancid government and its anti immigrant stance especially during Brexit has led to immigrants being vilified .
I’m glad he’s recovered but that’s it . No amount of him playing the martyr or sudden caring for the NHS and its many foreign workers will remove the stench of hate he’s peddled for years !
Officially we have had 10612 deaths. The number is actually far higher; patients dying in the community or in care homes are not being counted, and in some parts of the country coroners are refusing to accept MCCDs (Medical certificates of cause of death) signed by GPs if they give Covid 19 as either the cause of death or a contributory factor. Hospital cases aren't counted if the tests are negative (as they are in about 30% of clinical typical cases). And of patients already in hospital, 50% of those on ventilators will, sadly die. It will be amazing if we have less than 50,000 deaths, ad that excludes the patients with other diseases who won't be sent into hospital in present circumstances (e.g coronaries, strokes, etc) Meanwhile little progress on getting 100,000 tests per day, PPE in short supply. This has been catastrophic mismanagement
I haven't seen any evidence for there being far more deaths than reported.
on a lighter note, the madder side of twitter are getting very excited about a story that 2 doctors were sent home on leave after refusing to sign the official secret act whilst treating the prime minister.
I have no problem with the PM getting special treatment . My issue is with the press coverage and the almost hero status he’s being rewarded with for recovering .
A lot of people recover , they’re not hero’s they just recovered ! And his calling out two foreign nurses when his rancid government and its anti immigrant stance especially during Brexit has led to immigrants being vilified .
I’m glad he’s recovered but that’s it . No amount of him playing the martyr or sudden caring for the NHS and it’s many foreign workers will remove the stench of hate he’s peddled for years !
Hate is not confined to accusations about the conservative party and the problem you seem to overlook is that Boris will now be the number one supporter for the NHS and immigration as necessary from across the globe, not just the EU
I have no problem with the PM getting special treatment . My issue is with the press coverage and the almost hero status he’s being rewarded with for recovering .
A lot of people recover , they’re not hero’s they just recovered ! And his calling out two foreign nurses when his rancid government and its anti immigrant stance especially during Brexit has led to immigrants being vilified .
I’m glad he’s recovered but that’s it . No amount of him playing the martyr or sudden caring for the NHS and it’s many foreign workers will remove the stench of hate he’s peddled for years !
Hate is not confined to accusations about the conservative party and the problem you seem to overlook is that Boris will now be the number one supporter for the NHS and immigration as necessary from across the globe, not just the EU
Not acknowledging care home deaths in the numbers is just awful. These are also Mothers, Fathers and Grandparents, just as those dying in hospitals are. The government run the risk of being accused of downplaying numbers by doing so as well as denying people the dignity of being the equal of anyone else dying with this virus.
Seems like virtually the only major European country that has done anything right, to read that, given how events have proceeded.
Yet Germany failed to contain the virus. It seemed more important for the authorities here not to inconvenience people going on skiing holidays than to seriously try to contain a deadly epidemic. Germany seeming so far to be doing a bit better than Britain isn't saying much. All the major European governments have been disappointing.
And why is Hammond indulging in lazy stereotypes? Not helpful, or funny if it's supposed to be a joke.
Taiwan looks to be doing the best so far.
New Zealand too. The message 'We go hard, we go early', very All Blacks. Didn't wait until people wanted to close things down, did it well before they'd even thought about it. As Jacinda Ardern said "“A strategy that sacrifices people in favour of supposedly a better economic outcome is a false dichotomy and has been shown to produce the worst of both worlds: loss of life and prolonged economic pain,”
Clear, forceful, truthful, compassionate.
New Zealand is doing relatively well, but still worse than Taiwan (276 cases per million against 16 cases per million). New Zealand also had the advantage of seeing what was happening in other countries which I'm not sure they really made the most of.
The UK had that advantage too. Then we wasted at least a week before locking down. Leaders lead, they don't wait for the people to agree with them. NZ did that and they closed the borders as well, all things which the UK refused to do because they thought people wouldn't like it.
The population density of NZ is also only twice that of the Scottish Highlands... what we call 'social-distancing measures' here is what they call Tuesday.
They have cities too. I appreciate it's not easy to admit that we were too slow, as we are still in the middle of it all, but that was a wasted week and more. The horror of the Irish looking across to see Cheltenham, the Stereophonics gig and so on was posted about earlier this morning. We are doing a lot of things well but leaving it too late to admit that we started really, really badly won't wash when it is owned up to later. Better to 'fess up now.
1.6 million of New Zealand's less than 5 million population lives in Auckland.
Just saw Boris' message to the nation. Extremely good. He is far better at this stuff than I thought he would be.
He spoke from experience. That cannot be faked. We are soon to enter a fascinating period in politics. There are many in the Conservative party - including in his own Cabinet - who will struggle with the high tax, big state future we have in front of us. And there are many in Labour who will struggle to oppose such a future. Where that takes us is anyone’s guess. It’s going to be so, so interesting. I hope - and believe - we will emerge from this a much better country. I just don’t know how yet!!
Officially we have had 10612 deaths. The number is actually far higher; patients dying in the community or in care homes are not being counted, and in some parts of the country coroners are refusing to accept MCCDs (Medical certificates of cause of death) signed by GPs if they give Covid 19 as either the cause of death or a contributory factor. Hospital cases aren't counted if the tests are negative (as they are in about 30% of clinical typical cases). And of patients already in hospital, 50% of those on ventilators will, sadly die. It will be amazing if we have less than 50,000 deaths, ad that excludes the patients with other diseases who won't be sent into hospital in present circumstances (e.g coronaries, strokes, etc) Meanwhile little progress on getting 100,000 tests per day, PPE in short supply. This has been catastrophic mismanagement
Coroners do not have the power to reject death certificates. They have the power to open an inquest and possibly find differently.
The guidance issued to doctors signing death certificates is that if a test result is available, they have a duty to use their clinical judgment as to the cause(s) of death. If they think that includes COVID19, they have to put it down. Since COVID19 is a notifiable disease it is mandatory to report it.
Indeed. In the long run, once the non-hospital data are collated, the total number of Covid-19 fatalities is bound to go up significantly - but that's the product of delays in reporting rather than any official attempt at subterfuge.
Numbers come out of hospitals quickly; they take significantly longer to be collated in the community. My understanding is that the ONS is indeed keeping a running total of all the deaths in which Covid-19 is known or suspected of being a cause, but that this is published two or three weeks behind the headline figures reported by the hospitals, for the reason that I just gave.
I would suspect that the vast bulk of deaths occuring outside of hospital from Covid-19 are taking place in nursing homes for the elderly. This is logical. There's a very good reason why the over-70s are being asked to take special care over self-isolation; of course, in a care home setting they can't be properly isolated. One resident gets the disease and it rips through the entire establishment.
If the numbers referred to in the Tweet posted by @williamglenn for other European countries are reflected in UK mortality, then we're probably reasonably safe to assume that the total number of Covid-19 related deaths so far is the hospital figure multiplied by 1.5, so about 15,000 at present.
Not acknowledging care home deaths in the numbers is just awful. These are also Mothers, Fathers and Grandparents, just as those dying in hospitals are. The government run the risk of being accused of downplaying numbers by doing so as well as denying people the dignity of being the equal of anyone else dying with this virus.
The question is for comparison purposes, are the stats from across the world the same base and exclude care homes
I have no problem with the PM getting special treatment . My issue is with the press coverage and the almost hero status he’s being afforded with for recovering .
A lot of people recover , they’re not hero’s they just recovered ! And his calling out two foreign nurses when his rancid government and its anti immigrant stance especially during Brexit has led to immigrants being vilified .
I’m glad he’s recovered but that’s it . No amount of him playing the martyr or sudden caring for the NHS and its many foreign workers will remove the stench of hate he’s peddled for years !
Wasn't Boris one of the politicians first calling for EU citizens to immediately get the right to stay unilaterally? I would prefer open borders but there is an issue between wanting less immigration and being anti-immigrant.
Seems like virtually the only major European country that has done anything right, to read that, given how events have proceeded.
Yet Germany failed to contain the virus. It seemed more important for the authorities here not to inconvenience people going on skiing holidays than to seriously try to contain a deadly epidemic. Germany seeming so far to be doing a bit better than Britain isn't saying much. All the major European governments have been disappointing.
And why is Hammond indulging in lazy stereotypes? Not helpful, or funny if it's supposed to be a joke.
Taiwan looks to be doing the best so far.
New Zealand too. The message 'We go hard, we go early', very All Blacks. Didn't wait until people wanted to close things down, did it well before they'd even thought about it. As Jacinda Ardern said "“A strategy that sacrifices people in favour of supposedly a better economic outcome is a false dichotomy and has been shown to produce the worst of both worlds: loss of life and prolonged economic pain,”
Clear, forceful, truthful, compassionate.
New Zealand is doing relatively well, but still worse than Taiwan (276 cases per million against 16 cases per million). New Zealand also had the advantage of seeing what was happening in other countries which I'm not sure they really made the most of.
The UK had that advantage too. Then we wasted at least a week before locking down. Leaders lead, they don't wait for the people to agree with them. NZ did that and they closed the borders as well, all things which the UK refused to do because they thought people wouldn't like it.
The population density of NZ is also only twice that of the Scottish Highlands... what we call 'social-distancing measures' here is what they call Tuesday.
They have cities too. I appreciate it's not easy to admit that we were too slow, as we are still in the middle of it all, but that was a wasted week and more. The horror of the Irish looking across to see Cheltenham, the Stereophonics gig and so on was posted about earlier this morning. We are doing a lot of things well but leaving it too late to admit that we started really, really badly won't wash when it is owned up to later. Better to 'fess up now.
1.6 million of New Zealand's less than 5 million population lives in Auckland.
Yeah, they don't have many cities. These are mainly large towns!
"Meanwhile little progress on getting 100,000 tests per day, PPE in short supply. This has been catastrophic mismanagement."
They may well struggle to make the 100k target. especially if the antibody test doesn't pass the obstacles. But I would hold my criticism until that happens.
However antigen tests only supply information, it doesn't cure anyone. It helps you get medical people back to work and confirms a diagnosis. However a negative test can be positive by the time it comes out. And what about the next day or the day after that?.
You can contact-trace but if there are many thousands, it's too late. if we come out of lockdown and have flattened the curve, it may become more useful
I suspect PPE isn't in short supply, but more likely in the wrong places. Cock-ups happen and will always occur. Jumping up and down isn't constructive. Pin-pointing the reason for the problem would be. Did I blink and miss that?
Bojo and his mates still have the armour of listening to the expert advice. Is it better to go with twitter, or even worse, the jumped up know-it-alls who infect it?
Comments
Turn to the media for guidance and both telegraph and Mail last few days lead with story’s of a year long shut down, due to the fact it takes this long to test vaccines and treatments for side effects. Meanwhile look at today’s front pages, a red top has led with “my child is more important than the old, they should sign non resuscitation forms”.
Yet, the bottom line clearly is, how long can you keep your economy in coma before it’s starts to permanently die?
If we think this is currently hell, it’s nothing compared to the judgement of Solomon hurtling towards us.
How galling for ticcy Yoons & how sh*** (censored for you sensitive types) must their politicians be?
I like Dr Fauci - he has a tendency to not suffer fools gladly and he was getting a touch irritated at that interviewing technique too. He also gets irritated with Trump - for the same reason - a dunderhead with delusions of grandeur, but at least he is the POTUS.
What is the excuse for the bunch of thicko journalists who assemble to show their ignorance every day at the government's press conference?
It is going to be a long time before we really know who did well and who did badly. The raw statistics are never going to be fully comparable even after the statisticians have done their totting up and standardising, what with different countries having different age structures, urban/rural splits, interconnectivity, household sizes etc.
And even then that only tells us how well the decisions worked out in retrospect, but what the best decisions were with the information available at the time is going to be a subject of argument for generations to come. As a simple example, eggheads have long been split about the effectiveness - or counterproductiveness - of shutting schools during a pandemic, whether a football stadium is more or less risky than a pub etc. Who knows whether decisions on those matters were made for the right reasons - could well be political expendiency or need to be seen to be "doing something" or alternatively the need not to be seen to panic drove decisions in many coubtries, and in some cases I'm sure politicians chose what turned out to be right decision for all the wrong reasons.
Given what's happened in Singapore, I wouldn't want to be bigging up other countries for successfully stopping the epidemic in its tracks. Not yet. You've got to find a sustainable way to stop it forever if that's your game, and given where we stand with time to a vaccine and the accumulating damage to the economy, that's a long old game.
https://www.flightradar24.com/CES551/2459b0f7
But there really isn’t one.
If it needs Raab to force it through the Cabinet it’s probably the wrong strategy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huTUOek4LgU&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR3CW5UwbyqCMdHPEdTnsTjfmnI7ch1NuE92WOQ8TL7veG3tos-R0F_IC3c&src=Linkfire&lId=f864ffed-b5e8-46de-a5ba-dc3521efb601&cId=d3d58fd7-4c47-11e6-9fd0-066c3e7a8751
The second is that if this is how thieves are going to fall out, this spells trouble for the government defending how it handled the start of the outbreak.
Imagine if they do try and use a tracking system like South Korea....but we aren't, we are going to go for an inefficient voluntary bluetooth location based app.
It’s not out of the question that people from the government might eventually end up apologising for not carrying on with the strategy they started with
The patent expired for the SMS fabric ( most commonly used for drapes & gowns) some years ago. The actual converting of the fabric to drapes & gowns is still largely a 'cut & sew' operation undertaken in China, Vietnam & Mexico due to labour costs although there is some machinery to make simple drapes.
Does it?...they put down a load of ideas, and then didn't even run a simulation on it. Actually disappointed they didn't, as surely it is a good thing to at least see what the hell the impact would be.
It is why I am very uncomfortable with this desire to have absolutely everything ever discussed revealed. It stops people from ever even suggesting something from fear it will later be made public.
They famously had to retrain Korean Airlines staff after a number of disasters, because the culture of never challenging authorities led to a significant number of crashes and mishaps.
Corbyn may have possessed messianic syndrome/complex, but I don't recall him returning from death's door on Easter Sunday.
Corbyn was a fraud!
What is it like to be in INTENSIVE CARE with CORONAVIRUS?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvr_uO7KWMo
I understand the PM has been playing games. Soduku in fact.
‘The movies the PM has been watching are said to include Withnail And I, starring Richard E Grant, and the Lord Of The Rings trilogy.
He has also been doing sudoku.’
I have been in clubs and gigs where they want you out so they can move on, hence horrible blaring noise over sound system. Is Richard E Grant, sudoku and the botched rings trilogy the NHS equivalent?
There is an argument here the supposed power vacuum at the top has been a non story all along. Whilst he’s recuperating at the Chequers Sanatorium, there 99% likelihood the government strategy won’t have to change. There are no decisions to make. For the next fortnight it is steady as she goes Mr Chekov. In the 1% chance something happens that needs a decision, Martian invasion, 8.4 earthquake in Yorkshire, it would be so big he would have to come back ready or not.
If the NHS truly wanted to lay on special treatment for the PM they would have given him counter strike to play with.
During WWI, IIRC, the Vickers carefully tallied up the usage of the Krupp patent fuse in British artillery shells. There was quite an issue about the payments after the war. I dimly remember that they were sending payments to Krupp after 1914....
Imagine the government had pursued the ‘herd immunity’ strategy, and the result to date was 10,612 deaths. How many do you think people would say would have been saved by a lockdown?
They may tinker with the date and extent of relaxation for political reasons, every government would do that. The Labour party would too. of course. They will also try to score political points as would the Tories if the roles were reversed.
Constructive criticism means the opposition will criticise with hindsight rather than make predictions themselves. It's all very childish.
Not everything has gone perfectly, and it will never do so.
I can see the opposition having a moan if the Nightingale hospitals outside London are not fully used. They could have been used for cancer patients and some of the more routine patients. Isn't hindsight wonderful if that proves to be the case.
Would I trust media journalists with running a sweet shop? I wouldn't trust them to find their own arses with a roadmap and a compass.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonwoven_fabric
It would be a better class of question, and he might even listen to the answer.
It will be amazing if we have less than 50,000 deaths, ad that excludes the patients with other diseases who won't be sent into hospital in present circumstances (e.g coronaries, strokes, etc)
Meanwhile little progress on getting 100,000 tests per day, PPE in short supply.
This has been catastrophic mismanagement
Perhaps this is a question that could be asked?
The patent expired in the 90's & it is still the preferred single use fabric due to it's barrier properties..
The practical job of implementing the strategy is where there is plenty of room for things to go wrong. PPE logistics comes under this subheading but so do things like how harsh the police need to be, what jobs count as "essential", what do you do about replacing school exams, how do you ensure vulnerable groups eg with no recourse to public funds or in unusual work situations don't slip through the gaps, how do you get food and medicine to those who are shielding...
Since we are almost trying to redesign how society works from scratch and nobody has done this before there are a million ways to cock up the operational side and I don't think any government could expect to be perfect. I'm not sure whether it's these mistakes that voters will punish more severely than the overarching "big calls" as a lot would depend on personal experience or what anecdotes they're exposed to but it seems plausible to me.
The guidance issued to doctors signing death certificates is that if a test result is available, they have a duty to use their clinical judgment as to the cause(s) of death. If they think that includes COVID19, they have to put it down. Since COVID19 is a notifiable disease it is mandatory to report it.
Not sure where that puts us in terms of 'headroom' for any loosening.
A lot of people recover , they’re not hero’s they just recovered ! And his calling out two foreign nurses when his rancid government and its anti immigrant stance especially during Brexit has led to immigrants being vilified .
I’m glad he’s recovered but that’s it . No amount of him playing the martyr or sudden caring for the NHS and its many foreign workers will remove the stench of hate he’s peddled for years !
Report from https://dorseteye.com/was-boris-johnsons-covid-19-condition-contrived/
The 2 doctors are named as "Shirley Knott" and "Ashleigh Pullin"............
Ben Stokes commentates on his Ashes 3rd Test heroics!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3gIOyj5bpA
Numbers come out of hospitals quickly; they take significantly longer to be collated in the community. My understanding is that the ONS is indeed keeping a running total of all the deaths in which Covid-19 is known or suspected of being a cause, but that this is published two or three weeks behind the headline figures reported by the hospitals, for the reason that I just gave.
I would suspect that the vast bulk of deaths occuring outside of hospital from Covid-19 are taking place in nursing homes for the elderly. This is logical. There's a very good reason why the over-70s are being asked to take special care over self-isolation; of course, in a care home setting they can't be properly isolated. One resident gets the disease and it rips through the entire establishment.
If the numbers referred to in the Tweet posted by @williamglenn for other European countries are reflected in UK mortality, then we're probably reasonably safe to assume that the total number of Covid-19 related deaths so far is the hospital figure multiplied by 1.5, so about 15,000 at present.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_New_Zealand
This has been catastrophic mismanagement."
They may well struggle to make the 100k target. especially if the antibody test doesn't pass the obstacles. But I would hold my criticism until that happens.
However antigen tests only supply information, it doesn't cure anyone. It helps you get medical people back to work and confirms a diagnosis. However a negative test can be positive by the time it comes out. And what about the next day or the day after that?.
You can contact-trace but if there are many thousands, it's too late. if we come out of lockdown and have flattened the curve, it may become more useful
I suspect PPE isn't in short supply, but more likely in the wrong places. Cock-ups happen and will always occur. Jumping up and down isn't constructive. Pin-pointing the reason for the problem would be. Did I blink and miss that?
Bojo and his mates still have the armour of listening to the expert advice. Is it better to go with twitter, or even worse, the jumped up know-it-alls who infect it?