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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » New study finds Brits struggling under the lockdown although 8

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  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,411
    Alistair said:

    One issue with a mass movement to "work from home" is that many people's home insurance doesn't cover long term work from home.

    Lots do but lots don't.

    In my somewhat of of date experience of buying Home Insurance and working from home, the touchstone seemed to be whether your work required people to come and visit you. Sometimes there was a de minimus factor stated, sometimes not.
    Friend of mine whose husband started to work from home for an international's company had to have an inspection as to whether the place was 'safe'. The inspector was, apparently, a woman, and my friend said she was hostile all the time 'that woman' was inspecting her home!
  • Frank_BoothFrank_Booth Posts: 116

    You're entitled to your view but it's a small minority at the moment - most people approve of the lockdown and if anything want it to be stricter.

    On deaths (cheery subject that it is), Ministers should also consider the unpleasant nature and frequent after-effects of the illness. I'm mildly higher risk as I'm 70. If there was merely a 5% risk of dying as I went about my business, i'd probably accept it. But a high probability of catching it and having a horrible illness, plus a 5% chance of dying, no thanks.

    An interesting phenomenon that we're discussing in my job is that a significant proportion of the staff positively prefer working from home (no commuting, pleasant environment) and seem to be almost as effective in our (office) jobs. Most would like to be able to get out more in their free time, but we're drawing the conclusion that if and when things return to quasi-normality, we may switch from "you can work at home 1 day a week if you want to" (the current policy for most) to "we encourage you to work 1-2 days a week at home"). That facilitates hot-desking so there are savings to be had in office space as well as satisfaction for individuals.
    Business savings appears an under mentioned aspect of this. Using our home wifi/heating/electricity costs money to employees although many will save on not commuting.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    isam said:
    So successfully, the policy has also been implemented across Europe.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Pulpstar said:

    My partner has been WFH since forever. On the home insurance front I've only ever seen 'running a business' from home as potentially affecting home insurance and on the comparison sites. You're not running a business from home if you're working from home.
    We had to turn down some home insurance as they wouldn't cover work from home where you brought equipment (I. E. Work Laptop) home.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,314
    isam said:
    The man is bonkers. I cannot imagine why he thinks they even want a policy of mass euthanasia.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,095

    It fits my prejudices that the Telegraph is read by people owning and running businesses, who habitually vote Conservative, and who are losing money.
    They'll be furious when their tenants can't afford the rent.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,787
    isam said:
    Those figures only work if you believe China's numbers of course...
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Sandpit said:

    Yep, it seems that the legacy systems have had a much longer legacy that a lot of people thought in the '90s. Glass had the foresight to see it.

    Maybe I should change my lockdown PMP course for a COBOL course instead? ;)
    The book is fantastic and the advice timeless. I can thoroughly recommend it to any software engineer on here.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,384
    Talking of outdated work, I remember hearing a year or two ago that medieval shoes (soft leather made to fit using historically authentic techniques) have a waiting lists of months if not years and cost a small fortune.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009
    kle4 said:

    Indeed. The last 3 days in particular have been thr arrival of summer in the south west. Horribly hot at night.
    we are not even getting warm during the day yet
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,713

    Like Latin?
    Ha, I used to be a COBOL programmer. Felt like it was going nowhere - all the jobs getting offshored - and took a masters in town planning. Now moved on from that too. Maybe time to go back to COBOL if suddenly we're short of programmers! Though it's not exactly difficult.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,860
    Pulpstar said:

    The Telegraph really does seem the most desperate of anyone out there to end the lockdown.

    I propose that the lockdown be extended to 1 year. For opinion column journalists of all stripes.

    This will protect the general public from them. Their progression to complete inanity will provide their papers with column inches....

    All those who approve, say aye?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,787
    kle4 said:

    The man is bonkers. I cannot imagine why he thinks they even want a policy of mass euthanasia.
    He's someone else been driven mad by Brexit. Talking of which....
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Pulpstar said:

    My partner has been WFH since forever. On the home insurance front I've only ever seen 'running a business' from home as potentially affecting home insurance and on the comparison sites. You're not running a business from home if you're working from home.
    Indeed WFH would intuitively (if you don't have home business risks) lower the risk to.the insurance company not increase it I'd have thought. I believe most risk occurs when a property is unoccupied.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,411
    malcolmg said:

    Not a bad thing and if anybody ever said anything you can safely say you have no alternative. We have not seen our grandkids for months now apart from skype and it is not pleasant.
    How old are they, Malc? Our youngest (6) and oldest (31), both female, want to give Grannie a cuddle. The ones in the middle, not so much.
  • Frank_BoothFrank_Booth Posts: 116
    isam said:
    Amazing. One thing I am sick and tired of at the moment is certainty.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,314
    TGOHF666 said:
    No one is perfect I guess.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    edited April 2020
    Alistair said:

    The book is fantastic and the advice timeless. I can thoroughly recommend it to any software engineer on here.
    I did thumb through a friend's copy a few years ago.

    20 quid for Kindle version, might as well read it again...
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Facts-Fallacies-Software-Engineering-Development/dp/0321117425/
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,787
    edited April 2020
    TGOHF666 said:
    It certainly seems "Sir" Kier has picked just about the most remain-centric shadow cabinet he possibly can.

    Could it be that Starmer is planning to run a REJOIN manifesto in 2024?

    You all know what I think about the Tories chances in 2024 but if Labour are mad enough to fight the election on REJOIN that's the one thing that could well see them lose...
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Pulpstar said:

    They'll be furious when their tenants can't afford the rent.
    https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/health/coronavirus/owner-edinburghs-bross-bagels-tells-shock-after-landlord-brands-her-request-get-rent-break-typical-jewish-behaviour-2534655
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,787

    Amazing. One thing I am sick and tired of at the moment is certainty.
    Good to see you on this morning Frank? Did you get medical advice about your breathlessness the other day?
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,951
    ydoethur said:

    A lot of English MPs at least have office functions in London rather than their constituencies.

    This ten grand is to allow them to adapt that model so they can work remotely - e.g. pay for printing on private printers.

    I was wondering if the SNP do it differently.
    At least some SNP MPs tend to palm off a lot of enquiries on to their MSP colleagues on the basis that most enquiries are for devolved matters.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,814
    Pulpstar said:

    My partner has been WFH since forever. On the home insurance front I've only ever seen 'running a business' from home as potentially affecting home insurance and on the comparison sites. You're not running a business from home if you're working from home.
    Most house insurance policies allow you to do clerical work at home. They don't want you to setup a workshop on the standard policy.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,860
    kle4 said:

    I've found senior people in particular have been to be more effective because they actually have time to do things personally not bothered by minor or innane stuff, so can more effectively lead their core staff.
    Many junior staff find it more effective because the senior staff can't breathe on their shoulders every 10 seconds with minor or inane stuff.....

    What's that saying about the tree of monkeys?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,130
    If you don't have a garden I'm sure this could be done in your sitting room. In fact probably better that you do it there.

    https://twitter.com/joetracini/status/1248166916784623617?s=20
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,314
    edited April 2020

    Many junior staff find it more effective because the senior staff can't breathe on their shoulders every 10 seconds with minor or inane stuff.....

    What's that saying about the tree of monkeys?
    Thats a fair point actually, I was look at it a bit backward given many of the senior people are control freaks. Effectiveness may have been forced upon them not seized .

    And I dont actually know the saying about the tree of monkeys.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009

    Yep. MP I know of employs about 4 people doing casework - not all full-time. But if working from home all will presumably need parliament-approved laptops etc. if they are to continue providing a service. Anecdotally the enquiries from constituents have significantly increased. Very generous of all those SNP MPs to fund this extra expense out of their own pockets. Cough.
    Always leading Burgessian , the sheep will eventually follow their principled lead NOT. The southerners will be gorging at the public trough whilst our fine lads and lassies manage their affairs effectively and well under budget.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    So successfully, the policy has also been implemented across Europe.
    A comparison between the UK death rates and Germany show that's not the case. However best to ascribe the UKs failure to political incompetence rather than active malice.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009
    edited April 2020

    How old are they, Malc? Our youngest (6) and oldest (31), both female, want to give Grannie a cuddle. The ones in the middle, not so much.
    OKC, 9 and 15, both boys. Would be great for their Gran to get a cuddle at this point but impossible under the circumstances.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    edited April 2020
    kle4 said:

    Thats a fair point actually, I was look at it a bit backward given many of the senior people are control freaks. Effectiveness may have been forced upon them not seized .

    And I dont actually know the saying about the tree of monkeys.
    The C-Levels will be noticing the layers of management, who send emails and have meetings all day, don't actually contribute anything except getting in the way of those who do the work.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,951
    Cookie said:

    Artice in the Telegraph this morning by Fraser Nelson saying that 1) government surprised at how obedient Brits had been in obeying the lockdown, and that consequently the economy is suffering far more than expected, and as a result 2) models 150,000 deaths as a result of lockdown (that includes both deaths due to being poorer and deaths due to the NHS and individuals choosing to delay things like vaccinations, checking of lumps etc.
    Must admit, there is a lump on the back of my head I keep meaning to get checked out but won't be doing under current circumstances!

    I've recently had a video consultation with a GP using the NHSAttend facility. Worked fine. No need to actually attend. Saved everyone's time. But, obviously, only works if you don't need to be physically prodded.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,048
    JonathanD said:

    A comparison between the UK death rates and Germany show that's not the case. However best to ascribe the UKs failure to political incompetence rather than active malice.
    Why is Germany the baseline rather than Italy, Spain, France, Holland, Switzerland, Denmark etc? All that shows is at least one country is doing better than us.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,860
    JonathanD said:

    A comparison between the UK death rates and Germany show that's not the case. However best to ascribe the UKs failure to political incompetence rather than active malice.
    So, have we re-conquered France? If so, need to notify Windsor. The Queen will need to put the bit about the French domains back in her titles.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009

    If you don't have a garden I'm sure this could be done in your sitting room. In fact probably better that you do it there.

    https://twitter.com/joetracini/status/1248166916784623617?s=20

    That is totally wrong
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    kle4 said:

    No one is perfect I guess.
    He's a shadow minister only I think
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    malcolmg said:

    That is totally wrong
    Well you give us a video then to show us how it is done.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,794
    On working locations. It's one thing to ask your people to work from home, it's another to say we're moving you to a disused warehouse in Milton Keynes. The people will all just leave.

    I don't foresee a huge change in the working dynamic, if anything people are feeling very isolated at home and most of my colleagues are looking forwards to being back in office. Companies aren't going to see any large savings from this.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,411
    malcolmg said:

    That is totally wrong
    Gordon b&^%$y Bennett! Glad golf isn't allowed at the moment; put anyone off their stroke!
  • Frank_BoothFrank_Booth Posts: 116
    GIN1138 said:

    Good to see you on this morning Frank? Did you get medical advice about your breathlessness the other day?
    Thanks for asking. Not exactly breathlessness but discomfort breathing was the thing. My sinuses felt very blocked, chest was wheezy and I'd been stuck indoors for a week. Things improved afterwards and now feel better than I have for quite some time.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,048

    Fraser Nelson, in Telegraph:

    "Work is being done to add it all up and produce a figure for “avoidable deaths” that could, in the long-term, be caused by lockdown. I’m told the early attempts have produced a figure of 150,000, far greater than those expected to die of Covid"



    Seems Cabinet is split on the lockdown. Witty is very aware of indirect deaths.

    Over the long term the only way to reduce avoidable deaths is by reducing births!
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    Why is Germany the baseline rather than Italy, Spain, France, Holland, Switzerland, Denmark etc? All that shows is at least one country is doing better than us.
    We should be aiming to be matching the best not be some also ran. 5th biggest economy, nuclear power, P5 member and all that...
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,814
    malcolmg said:

    It was a case of whether he was breaking the rules of the lockdown re whether it was an essential journey or not. He is being safe virus wise.
    If it was to save his starving grandparents I am sure it is perfectly acceptable, not so sure if it had been to just take over a box of chocolates.
    The lockdown policy is a massive restriction of liberty. It can only be justified, and I think it is justified, because of the extreme emergency. But it does throw up anomalies.

    I get the shopping for my mother who lives alone and doesn't see anyone from one week to the next now. I worry about this but know that if I spent some time with her, had a meal with her, it wouldn't have a material effect on the spread of the virus, and certainly not compared with if she moved in with us, which she could do under the policy. Maybe there's a case for people on their own to have a designated contact person, for company.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,084
    isam said:
    I wouldn’t pay too much attention to Grayling. Like Horton, he’s one who doesn’t let facts interfere with his prejudices.

    https://historyforatheists.com/2020/03/the-great-myths-8-the-loss-of-ancient-learning/
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,874
    fox327 said:

    Some epidemiologists have been called mathematical biologists, but they are doctors not mathematicians. Just because a person is not an epidemiologist does not make them an idiot. The medical profession is not uniquely qualified to make judgements on ethical, social and economic issues or to balance them against medical priorities. If doctors take sole responsibility for deciding the response to this crisis they may regret it in the future.
    What I'm saying is that if someone thinks the peak of daily deaths is the point at which restrictions can be relaxed, then they are scientifically illiterate.

    Can't quite make out what your response has to do with that, or whether you agree or disagree.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009

    If you don't have a garden I'm sure this could be done in your sitting room. In fact probably better that you do it there.

    https://twitter.com/joetracini/status/1248166916784623617?s=20

    His face when the grasscutter went past was funny as well. We are pissing ourselves.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009
    GIN1138 said:

    Good to see you on this morning Frank? Did you get medical advice about your breathlessness the other day?
    He is not the PM, will have been told to just stay in the house and take a paracetamol.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    ydoethur said:

    I wouldn’t pay too much attention to Grayling. Like Horton, he’s one who doesn’t let facts interfere with his prejudices.

    https://historyforatheists.com/2020/03/the-great-myths-8-the-loss-of-ancient-learning/
    From reading his comment, you'd almost think that for some reason Grayling has a massive axe to grind with Johnson and Cummings. I wonder what that might be?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,130
    Alistair said:

    Well you give us a video then to show us how it is done.
    I have it on good authority that Malc is a master of the Immodest Reptile.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,505
    Cambridge police patrolling the non-essential aisles.
    https://twitter.com/cambridgecops/status/1248527425379713025?s=21
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,314
    JonathanD said:

    We should be aiming to be matching the best not be some also ran. 5th biggest economy, nuclear power, P5 member and all that...
    It's important to aim for the best, and note if we are not. But it's also important to note if we are not the worst, or are average.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,420
    JonathanD said:

    We should be aiming to be matching the best not be some also ran. 5th biggest economy, nuclear power, P5 member and all that...
    To match the best you have to be willing to put the work in.

    Do the British people give any sign of being willing to do that ?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    malcolmg said:

    our fine lads and lassies manage their affairs effectively and well under budget.

    By claiming £2,400 more per head than Tories.....

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mps-expenses-scandal/how-much-does-my-mp-claim/

    Of course, doesn't stop them telling lies about it:

    The tweet [by Campbeltown and Kintyre SNP branch] claims:

    “The SNP Has 35 MPs in Westminster, their total travel and accommodation costs for the last 12 months is £79,852. The Scottish Conservatives have 13 MPs in Westminster, their total travel and accommodation costs are £250,427.”

    Given the numbers of MPs in the claim and the date of the tweet, the year being referred to is presumably 2017/18. Looking at the parliamentary expenses figures for that year, the amounts quoted in the tweet are wildly inaccurate....

    In 2017/18 the total travel and accommodation costs for the 35 SNP MPs came to £1.3 million, or £37,000 on average per MP.

    In the same year the total travel and accommodation costs for the 13 Conservative MPs from Scotland came to around £389,000, or just under £30,000 on average per MP.

    We cannot see any reasonable way in which the tweet could have come up with its figures.


    https://fullfact.org/online/snp-conservative-mp-expenses/
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,218
    edited April 2020

    Cambridge police patrolling the non-essential aisles.
    https://twitter.com/cambridgecops/status/1248527425379713025?s=21

    That is enforcement beyond what the law allows, I think.

    Unless the polizei are pretending than a 2m journey from aisle 1 to aisle 2 is a separate "non-essential journey", and I don't think even Vera Baird had her head that far in the clouds when she was a PCC.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,095
    Alistair said:

    Well you give us a video then to show us how it is done.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVfZxQugvFc
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,048
    JonathanD said:

    We should be aiming to be matching the best not be some also ran. 5th biggest economy, nuclear power, P5 member and all that...
    Well Germany is richer than us and spend more on healthcare, not sure why we should expect to match them anymore than you would expect a poorer country to match us?

    Besides, each country is unique in its demographics, fitness, geography and social norms. Those may be accounting for as much or more variation as policy. As may randomness for reasons that will never be known.

  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    edited April 2020

    Cambridge police patrolling the non-essential aisles.
    https://twitter.com/cambridgecops/status/1248527425379713025?s=21

    What do you expect from one of the few SE cities dumb enough to have a Corbynite MP and the highest remain vote this side of Strasbourg ?

    The cops are as full of virtue signalling left wing authoritarian bollocks as the citizens. Some of us have to live here.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,084
    Sandpit said:

    From reading his comment, you'd almost think that for some reason Grayling has a massive axe to grind with Johnson and Cummings. I wonder what that might be?
    Well, I wonder too, given it was Cummings’ idea to let him have his own pseudo-university to play with. You would have thought he’d be grateful but apparently not.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,874

    Hard as it is to accept, herd immunity is still the only show in town.
    Just out of curiosity, would you agree to be infected with the virus, and to go into isolation until you were no longer infectious, and also to waive the right to medical treatment for the infection?

    It's a genuine question. If there were really large numbers of people who felt that way, they could make a genuine contribution to solving the problem.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009
    Alistair said:

    Well you give us a video then to show us how it is done.
    Watch with envy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyI2m67wS8w
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,131
    MattW said:

    That is enforcement beyond what the law allows, I think.
    Bonkers. When is Patel going to get a grip?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,135
    GIN1138 said:

    It certainly seems "Sir" Kier has picked just about the most remain-centric shadow cabinet he possibly can.

    Could it be that Starmer is planning to run a REJOIN manifesto in 2024?

    You all know what I think about the Tories chances in 2024 but if Labour are mad enough to fight the election on REJOIN that's the one thing that could well see them lose...
    You can never run perfect experiments in political science, because so many factors are different, but it will make an interesting contrast to Blair's timidity over the EU. Blair was criticised for not using his landslide majorities to do more - such as join the Euro - and perhaps a Starmer campaign on Rejoin will show why that caution was justified.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009
    FF43 said:

    The lockdown policy is a massive restriction of liberty. It can only be justified, and I think it is justified, because of the extreme emergency. But it does throw up anomalies.

    I get the shopping for my mother who lives alone and doesn't see anyone from one week to the next now. I worry about this but know that if I spent some time with her, had a meal with her, it wouldn't have a material effect on the spread of the virus, and certainly not compared with if she moved in with us, which she could do under the policy. Maybe there's a case for people on their own to have a designated contact person, for company.
    It is certainly a big worry for people with elderly parents etc. No easy solution but you cannot see your mother short of food whether it breaks rules or not, have to get your priorities right. As you say it should not be beyond them to ensure everyone has some contact person.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,994
    edited April 2020
    Chris said:

    Just out of curiosity, would you agree to be infected with the virus, and to go into isolation until you were no longer infectious, and also to waive the right to medical treatment for the infection?

    It's a genuine question. If there were really large numbers of people who felt that way, they could make a genuine contribution to solving the problem.

    Shall we start off with the criminals and the lcd's ?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,048
    HYUFD said:
    Is the alarm bell to remind them to come up with some effective policies for government perhaps? Shouting about the problems no longer sufficient.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,583
    GIN1138 said:

    It certainly seems "Sir" Kier has picked just about the most remain-centric shadow cabinet he possibly can.

    Could it be that Starmer is planning to run a REJOIN manifesto in 2024?

    You all know what I think about the Tories chances in 2024 but if Labour are mad enough to fight the election on REJOIN that's the one thing that could well see them lose...
    Labour under Starmer will fight the next general election on an align with the single market platform, only Jess Phillips of the leadership contenders was pushing rejoin
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,411

    To match the best you have to be willing to put the work in.

    Do the British people give any sign of being willing to do that ?
    You are Priti Patel etc, etc.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    To match the best you have to be willing to put the work in.

    Do the British people give any sign of being willing to do that ?
    It will be interesting to see if those opposed to the UK government start advocating for a health system more like Germany's - mostly insurance-based, and with only a third of the hospitals being public-sector.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,314

    Cambridge police patrolling the non-essential aisles.
    https://twitter.com/cambridgecops/status/1248527425379713025?s=21

    It's curious they are still trying to enforce such a thing when it's been made clear already that is beyond what is required by the law. Do they not read the news?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,787

    You can never run perfect experiments in political science, because so many factors are different, but it will make an interesting contrast to Blair's timidity over the EU. Blair was criticised for not using his landslide majorities to do more - such as join the Euro - and perhaps a Starmer campaign on Rejoin will show why that caution was justified.
    People want the referendum enacted (we leave with a deal) and then move the hell on.

    If Labout wants to run a third Brexit election on REJOIN vs Move On then good luck to them...
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,048
    kle4 said:

    It's curious they are still trying to enforce such a thing when it's been made clear already that is beyond what is required by the law. Do they not read the news?
    Id imagine there is much less for them to do at present. And something always needs to be done.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,314
    edited April 2020

    Is the alarm bell to remind them to come up with some effective policies for government perhaps? Shouting about the problems no longer sufficient.
    Not at all, did you not see Burgon's satisfied pride in his achievement of supporting some vague ideas? Job done.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    GIN1138 said:

    This makes me queasy. Who's to say what an "essential" item is? What's essential to one person is non-essential to others.

    The police are in no position to judge this.
    If 'authorities' want to stop people buying certain items, then they should be cleared from the shelves. Trying to police supermarket trolleys is Orwellian.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,233

    Cambridge police patrolling the non-essential aisles.
    https://twitter.com/cambridgecops/status/1248527425379713025?s=21

    The Old Bill are fucking loving this.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,384
    Psst!

    Don't tell anyone.

    But when I went shopping for vegetables, fruit, and chips the other day...

    I bought some cake too.

    Shhh!

    #rebel
  • Cookie said:

    Ha, I used to be a COBOL programmer. Felt like it was going nowhere - all the jobs getting offshored - and took a masters in town planning. Now moved on from that too. Maybe time to go back to COBOL if suddenly we're short of programmers! Though it's not exactly difficult.
    I'm currently trying to get back into software development by teaching myself Kotlin to write Android apps. I have a feeling that COBOL is probably a bit easier!
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,994
    kle4 said:

    It's curious they are still trying to enforce such a thing when it's been made clear already that is beyond what is required by the law. Do they not read the news?
    What is a non essential aisle.?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,130
    edited April 2020

    Id imagine there is much less for them to do at present. And someone always needs to be done.
    I dislike the 'fixed it for you' bollocks, but in this case..
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009
    Pulpstar said:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVfZxQugvFc
    My latest whups that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G88m2ihXDKU
  • Frank_BoothFrank_Booth Posts: 116
    Ricky Gervais claimed in one of his videos that there had been a fight in Tescos in Hampstead.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,048
    Chris said:

    Just out of curiosity, would you agree to be infected with the virus, and to go into isolation until you were no longer infectious, and also to waive the right to medical treatment for the infection?

    It's a genuine question. If there were really large numbers of people who felt that way, they could make a genuine contribution to solving the problem.

    I think if the govt created a free month long Glastonbury type festival, where covid 19 was not treated by medics and entry/exit was impossible apart from the scheduled start and end, you would get 1m volunteers. Not sure the millionaire stars would be happy to play on those terms though.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,164

    What is a non essential aisle.?
    ...and if such a thing exists, why haven't the supermarkets closed them?
  • Sandpit said:

    If 'authorities' want to stop people buying certain items, then they should be cleared from the shelves. Trying to police supermarket trolleys is Orwellian.
    I'm all for a strictly enforced lockdown, but this just seems silly. But then I suppose it is the job of the police to enforce laws, no matter how badly they are formulated.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,814
    edited April 2020

    Why is Germany the baseline rather than Italy, Spain, France, Holland, Switzerland, Denmark etc? All that shows is at least one country is doing better than us.
    I would say the UK response to the coronavirus has been average to poor in European terms, which collectively has done better than the US but worse than East Asia.

    I would put the UK in a group of countries including France, Italy, Spain, Belgium and Netherlands. Another group of countries including Germany, most of Scandinavia, some of East and Central Europe and Ireland have done better.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,314
    Sandpit said:

    If 'authorities' want to stop people buying certain items, then they should be cleared from the shelves. Trying to police supermarket trolleys is Orwellian.
    Some of the police probably would like the items cleared from the shelves but government has not legislated for that, so I think the authorities are split on this to say the least. It is one area where there has definitely been confusion from the government, particularly in relation to guidance which understandably goes in stronger than the law in language, but which surprising numbers of people think is the law just because it uses the word 'must' and so on.

    I'd be interested if any stores are voluntarily taking down 'non-essential' stock from their shelves to discourage non-essential trips.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,787

    Thanks for asking. Not exactly breathlessness but discomfort breathing was the thing. My sinuses felt very blocked, chest was wheezy and I'd been stuck indoors for a week. Things improved afterwards and now feel better than I have for quite some time.
    Great to hear. Rest up and get better :)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,384
    Mr. Sandpit, of course not.

    There'll be cognitive dissonance towering higher than Babel. I strongly suspect those wishing we were more like Germany will never countenance our health system becoming more like Germany's because it would be deemed sacrilege against the NHS.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281

    What is a non essential aisle.?
    It's ridiculous - you're allowed to shop for bread, butter, meat, milk, veg, but not digestive biscuits?

    It is the home of Fen Poly, so what do you expect?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,314
    edited April 2020

    I'm all for a strictly enforced lockdown, but this just seems silly. But then I suppose it is the job of the police to enforce laws, no matter how badly they are formulated.
    Yes, but it's not their job to badly enforce those laws. Sometimes they are given unclear guidance from government on interpreting those laws, but they also seem to interpret them themselves (in fairness a lot of the time the government does not give guidance on its laws) and do it inconsistently. Which is something forgivable up to a point, but even when matters have been clarified they seem reluctant to change tack.

    And no, complaining about such things is no awful police bashing. They do a lot of great work. But there is work they do that is not so great.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,787
    malcolmg said:

    He is not the PM, will have been told to just stay in the house and take a paracetamol.
    Morning Malc. Sun shining in bonny Scotland I hope? :D
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,164
    edited April 2020

    I'm currently trying to get back into software development by teaching myself Kotlin to write Android apps. I have a feeling that COBOL is probably a bit easier!
    Yeah, give me 'PIC S9(6) COMP SYNC RIGHT' over 'int' any day! :smile:

    (Ex ICL-1900 COBOL programmer)

    EDIT: My COBOL may be 40 years rusty tbf.
  • FF43 said:

    I would say the UK response to the coronavirus has been average to poor in European terms, which collectively has done better than the US but worse than East Asia.

    I would put the UK in a group of countries including France, Italy, Spain, Belgium and Netherlands. Another group of countries including Germany, most of Scandinavia, some of East and Central Europe and Ireland have done better.
    Italy and Switzerland have the excuse that they were the first European countries to suffer major outbreaks. We were lucky in having at least 2 weeks advance notice but unfortunately squandered our advantage.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,874

    I think if the govt created a free month long Glastonbury type festival, where covid 19 was not treated by medics and entry/exit was impossible apart from the scheduled start and end, you would get 1m volunteers. Not sure the millionaire stars would be happy to play on those terms though.
    No - I'm thinking of a situation in which a real effort would be made to infect the volunteers. For example, inhaling a virus-laden aerosol for several hours. Though I'd be happy for all kinds of entertainment to be laid on for them after they do that.

    The question is whether there would really be any volunteers for that kind of thing, or whether people are just extolling the merits of herd immunity on the assumption they're not going to catch the virus.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,048
    edited April 2020
    FF43 said:

    I would say the UK response to the coronavirus has been average to poor in European terms, which collectively has done better than the US but worse than East Asia.

    I would put the UK in a group of countries including France, Italy, Spain, Belgium and Netherlands. Another group of countries including Germany, most of Scandinavia, some of East and Central Europe and Ireland have done better.
    Scandinavia, East & Central Europe have much lower population density and are less inter connected than UK, France, Spain, Italy, Belgium and Netherlands. The virus hasnt spread as much to rural areas in those countries either. Id imagine the former group also has better levels of fitness and lower levels of obesity.

    It seems much more likely to me the variations are primarily down to factors other than policy.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,959
    Foxy said:

    Yes, the fatal part of Covid19 is the second phase, when the inflammatory "cytokine storm" gets out of control, and rather than fighting the virus becomes a problem in itself. This is the perceived cause of the lung damage, intravascular clotting, hypotension etc. The tricky bit is controlling it, without suppressing necessary host antiviral inflammation.

    The molecular biology of these inflammatory cascades is quite complex, and many things influence them from underlying conditions to pharmaceuticals to gender. Women tend to have more reactive immune systems that nip it in the bud sooner is the theory.

    There was an interesting paper a couple of days back.
    Gives a touch of support for the use of Actemra (though, of course correlation/causation...)

    Level of IL-6 predicts respiratory failure in hospitalized symptomatic COVID-19 patients
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.01.20047381v1
    ...Patients requiring mechanical ventilation 13/40 (32.5%) did not differ in age, comorbidities, radiological findings, respiratory rate or qSofa score. However, elevated interleukin-6 (IL-6) was strongly associated with the need for mechanical ventilation (p=1.2.10-5). In addition, the maximal IL-6 level (cutoff 80 pg/ml) for each patient during disease predicted respiratory failure with high accuracy (p=1.7.10-8, AUC=0.98). The risk of respiratory failure for patients with IL-6 levels of ≥ 80 pg/ml was 22 times higher compared to patients with lower IL-6 levels. In the current situation with overwhelmed intensive care units and overcrowded emergency rooms, correct triage of patients in need of intensive care is crucial. Our study shows that IL-6 is an effective marker that might be able to predict upcoming respiratory failure with high accuracy and help physicians correctly allocate patients at an early stage.
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