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  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Naz Shah has been appointed shadow minister for "community cohesion". This is the woman who said grooming victims should stay quiet for the sake of community cohesion. It is astonishingly insulting for victims that Starmer did this.

    That is definitely a mis-step. Even leaving her past history aside, she has shocking judgement.

    A dog whistle to the far left, perhaps?
    I don't think Naz Shah is a dogwhistle to the Corbynistas - that would be Zara Sultana or a few others.

    AFAIK, Shah is the only one who has convincingly tackled her own casual antisemitism head on; the others mainly seem just to issue "notpologies".
    What has she done that was so head on?

    There should have been zero tolerance of anyone involved in antisemitism. At least as far as promotions are concerned. To promote someone who has been antisemitic sends entirely the wrong message.
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Is pollution the reason some places are more affected by Covid-19 than others? Lombardy, Wuhan and London are bad I think

    “Conclusions: A small increase in long-term exposure to PM2.5 leads to a large increase in COVID-19 death rate, with the magnitude of increase 20 times that observed for PM2.5 and all-cause mortality. The study results underscore the importance of continuing to enforce existing air pollution regulations to protect human health both during and after the COVID-19 crisis. The data and code are publicly available.”

    https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/covid-pm/home

    People have mentioned that BAMEs are disproportionately dying from Covid19. Could it be because they tend to live in cities with bad pollution problems rather than any genetic/racial disposition?
    They also have higher rates of diabetes and heart disease. There is a genetic disposition for that.

    I am sure things such as more likely to be living in high density housing, in high density urban with higher pollution environments, higher rates of comorbidities, and more likely to be working customer facing jobs.

    And finally, religion. Going to organized religious events, they are a key transport vector.
    There are also medical drawbacks associated with first cousin marriage.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/7957808/700-children-born-with-genetic-disabilities-due-to-cousin-marriages-every-year.html
    That would be a problem in the Orthodox Jewish population too.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708
    Chris said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Floater said:

    Seriously plod - go look for some real fecking crimes

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8207393/Sales-Easter-eggs-wine-barbecues-paddling-pools-soar-ahead-four-day-break.html

    Video shows a South Yorkshire officer scolding a family for letting their young children play on the front lawn
    Cambridge Police boasted that officers had visited a local Tesco this morning to snoop on non-essential aisles

    They ought to be at the airports making sure people coming into the country are not at risk of spreading the virus.
    The words "drop" and "ocean" spring immediately to mind.
    A lot of this is about security theatre to encourage people to adopt the right behaviour. Arguably if there were visible checks at airports, it would give people more of a sense that their own efforts are not in vain, even if there's no rational case for it.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    RobD said:

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    Can anyone advise which team Boris has taken one for?

    https://twitter.com/holyroodmandy/status/1248552083571253250?s=20

    I would have thought the pathetic word-police babies would have moved on by now. Clearly not.

    Can anyone advise which team Boris has taken one for?

    https://twitter.com/holyroodmandy/status/1248552083571253250?s=20

    I would have thought the pathetic word-police babies would have moved on by now. Clearly not.
    Yes but which team has he taken one for?
    Team Fucking Awesome! :smiley:
    Pathetic I’m afraid. Which team do you regard in such way, he doesn’t play for Liverpool.
    Err, the conservative party? The clue is in his handle. :D
    I’d never have guessed😇
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    FF43 said:

    Chris said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This could be important:

    https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/04/09/999015/blood-tests-show-15-of-people-are-now-immune-to-covid-19-in-one-town-in-germany/

    "From the result of their blood survey, the German team estimated the death rate in the municipality at 0.37% overall, a figure significantly lower than what’s shown on a dashboard maintained by Johns Hopkins, where the death rate in Germany among reported cases is 2%.

    The authors explain that the difference in the calculations boils down to how many people are actually infected but haven’t been counted because they have mild or no symptoms."

    Half a per cent, more or less, is very much in line with other evidence, including that from China outside Hubei province.

    Of course, if the zany conspiracy theorists are right it's far deadlier than that. But something like 0.5% seems to be the consensus.
    Which implies about 200 000 deaths in the UK to get to herd immunity and the ability to leave lockdown without controls.

    For comparison about twice that number of casualties were taken over the five years of the WW II
    Your number for WWII seems rather low. UK and Crown Colonies deaths were around 450k. But your point is valid - we are facing a world-changing war level of fatalities.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    Gabs3 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Is pollution the reason some places are more affected by Covid-19 than others? Lombardy, Wuhan and London are bad I think

    “Conclusions: A small increase in long-term exposure to PM2.5 leads to a large increase in COVID-19 death rate, with the magnitude of increase 20 times that observed for PM2.5 and all-cause mortality. The study results underscore the importance of continuing to enforce existing air pollution regulations to protect human health both during and after the COVID-19 crisis. The data and code are publicly available.”

    https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/covid-pm/home

    People have mentioned that BAMEs are disproportionately dying from Covid19. Could it be because they tend to live in cities with bad pollution problems rather than any genetic/racial disposition?
    They also have higher rates of diabetes and heart disease. There is a genetic disposition for that.

    I am sure things such as more likely to be living in high density housing, in high density urban with higher pollution environments, higher rates of comorbidities, and more likely to be working customer facing jobs.

    And finally, religion. Going to organized religious events, they are a key transport vector.
    There are also medical drawbacks associated with first cousin marriage.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/7957808/700-children-born-with-genetic-disabilities-due-to-cousin-marriages-every-year.html
    That would be a problem in the Orthodox Jewish population too.
    In both cases, it is a practise that belongs in the past.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Gabs3 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Is pollution the reason some places are more affected by Covid-19 than others? Lombardy, Wuhan and London are bad I think

    “Conclusions: A small increase in long-term exposure to PM2.5 leads to a large increase in COVID-19 death rate, with the magnitude of increase 20 times that observed for PM2.5 and all-cause mortality. The study results underscore the importance of continuing to enforce existing air pollution regulations to protect human health both during and after the COVID-19 crisis. The data and code are publicly available.”

    https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/covid-pm/home

    People have mentioned that BAMEs are disproportionately dying from Covid19. Could it be because they tend to live in cities with bad pollution problems rather than any genetic/racial disposition?
    They also have higher rates of diabetes and heart disease. There is a genetic disposition for that.

    I am sure things such as more likely to be living in high density housing, in high density urban with higher pollution environments, higher rates of comorbidities, and more likely to be working customer facing jobs.

    And finally, religion. Going to organized religious events, they are a key transport vector.
    There are also medical drawbacks associated with first cousin marriage.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/7957808/700-children-born-with-genetic-disabilities-due-to-cousin-marriages-every-year.html
    That would be a problem in the Orthodox Jewish population too.
    In both cases, it is a practise that belongs in the past.
    Like religion in general.

    The sooner people leave the occult to the past and to fiction the better.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    Jonathan said:


    If they taste as good as they look, you might even get a handshake for those....
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    Can't be easy being Number 10 spokesperson, but the latest statement is amusing for its implied element of doubt:

    "I am told he was waving his thanks towards the nurses and doctors that he saw as he was being moved from the intensive care unit back to the ward.

    Hopefully it was clear to the staff that he was waving his gratitude.

    ... as opposed to "Bye, hope I never see you lot again"?

    Why not both?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    RobD said:

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    Can anyone advise which team Boris has taken one for?

    https://twitter.com/holyroodmandy/status/1248552083571253250?s=20

    I would have thought the pathetic word-police babies would have moved on by now. Clearly not.

    Can anyone advise which team Boris has taken one for?

    https://twitter.com/holyroodmandy/status/1248552083571253250?s=20

    I would have thought the pathetic word-police babies would have moved on by now. Clearly not.
    Yes but which team has he taken one for?
    Team Fucking Awesome! :smiley:
    Pathetic I’m afraid. Which team do you regard in such way, he doesn’t play for Liverpool.
    Err, the conservative party? The clue is in his handle. :D
    You don't know that for certain. With a name like BluestBlue he could regard Everton as Team Fucking Awes . . . sorry I can't even finish that sentence. 😂
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482

    Gabs3 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Is pollution the reason some places are more affected by Covid-19 than others? Lombardy, Wuhan and London are bad I think

    “Conclusions: A small increase in long-term exposure to PM2.5 leads to a large increase in COVID-19 death rate, with the magnitude of increase 20 times that observed for PM2.5 and all-cause mortality. The study results underscore the importance of continuing to enforce existing air pollution regulations to protect human health both during and after the COVID-19 crisis. The data and code are publicly available.”

    https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/covid-pm/home

    People have mentioned that BAMEs are disproportionately dying from Covid19. Could it be because they tend to live in cities with bad pollution problems rather than any genetic/racial disposition?
    They also have higher rates of diabetes and heart disease. There is a genetic disposition for that.

    I am sure things such as more likely to be living in high density housing, in high density urban with higher pollution environments, higher rates of comorbidities, and more likely to be working customer facing jobs.

    And finally, religion. Going to organized religious events, they are a key transport vector.
    There are also medical drawbacks associated with first cousin marriage.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/7957808/700-children-born-with-genetic-disabilities-due-to-cousin-marriages-every-year.html
    That would be a problem in the Orthodox Jewish population too.
    In both cases, it is a practise that belongs in the past.
    Like religion in general.

    The sooner people leave the occult to the past and to fiction the better.
    Not sure why you're blaming religion. It is not the wellspring of all cultural traditions. I also don't know why you (and so many other atheists) are so bothered about what others believe. It's not very libertarian. If we change from being an intolerant religious society to an intolerant atheist one we haven't gained anything.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    ydoethur said:

    OllyT said:

    Jess Phillips appointment has sent the Cult wild.

    A typical response:

    https://twitter.com/SkyeCity_/status/1248332254532833282

    Bye!

    They should have formed one in the first place instead of hijacking the Labour Party.
    I think it was based on a certain naivety. They thought that pendulums swing in British politics, so if they controlled one of the two major parties sooner or later they were bound to be in government.

    It didn’t occur to them that if people thought they were unfit for government all that would happen is the pendulum wouldn’t swing.
    Agreed but 2017 was close shave though.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Chris said:

    Provided you keep 2 metres apart.

    I think it's just your mouths have to be 2 metres apart. So there's scope there.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729

    Can't be easy being Number 10 spokesperson, but the latest statement is amusing for its implied element of doubt:

    "I am told he was waving his thanks towards the nurses and doctors that he saw as he was being moved from the intensive care unit back to the ward.

    Hopefully it was clear to the staff that he was waving his gratitude.

    ... as opposed to "Bye, hope I never see you lot again"?

    Sometimes you say bye and don't want to see someone again.. I wouldn't want to have to go to ICU more than once , in fact never!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Gabs3 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Is pollution the reason some places are more affected by Covid-19 than others? Lombardy, Wuhan and London are bad I think

    “Conclusions: A small increase in long-term exposure to PM2.5 leads to a large increase in COVID-19 death rate, with the magnitude of increase 20 times that observed for PM2.5 and all-cause mortality. The study results underscore the importance of continuing to enforce existing air pollution regulations to protect human health both during and after the COVID-19 crisis. The data and code are publicly available.”

    https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/covid-pm/home

    People have mentioned that BAMEs are disproportionately dying from Covid19. Could it be because they tend to live in cities with bad pollution problems rather than any genetic/racial disposition?
    They also have higher rates of diabetes and heart disease. There is a genetic disposition for that.

    I am sure things such as more likely to be living in high density housing, in high density urban with higher pollution environments, higher rates of comorbidities, and more likely to be working customer facing jobs.

    And finally, religion. Going to organized religious events, they are a key transport vector.
    There are also medical drawbacks associated with first cousin marriage.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/7957808/700-children-born-with-genetic-disabilities-due-to-cousin-marriages-every-year.html
    That would be a problem in the Orthodox Jewish population too.
    In both cases, it is a practise that belongs in the past.
    Like religion in general.

    The sooner people leave the occult to the past and to fiction the better.
    Not sure why you're blaming religion. It is not the wellspring of all cultural traditions. I also don't know why you (and so many other atheists) are so bothered about what others believe. It's not very libertarian. If we change from being an intolerant religious society to an intolerant atheist one we haven't gained anything.
    I'm happy to tolerate foolish beliefs. I'm also happy to mock them.

    Where's the discrepancy in that? If you want to believe that some mystical Sky Fairy is OK with you having sex with your cousin but is disturbed by you eating pork and takes attendance as to whether you worship Him properly then why should I not find that absurd?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    kjh said:

    New moths for the year last night included Waved Umber, Lunar Marbled Brown and Brimstone Moth.

    That is stunning. Do they get released?
    Absolutely. Calling it a moth "trap" is a misnomer - really should be called a "lure". Just photo and them and release. (Unless it is something that needs to be collected for some scientific study. There are some species that just cannot be determined to species by observation. But that is quite rare.)
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    Well that didn't take long...twitter trending with BorisTheButcher again....demanding he be held responsible for every death.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708

    Well that didn't take long...twitter trending with BorisTheButcher again....demanding he be held responsible for every death.

    Yes, he personally went into all the care homes in France infecting everyone...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,602

    Well that didn't take long...twitter trending with BorisTheButcher again....demanding he be held responsible for every death.

    From the same people demanding the lockdown ends NOW?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    Well that didn't take long...twitter trending with BorisTheButcher again....demanding he be held responsible for every death.

    Yes, he personally went into all the care homes in France infecting everyone...
    I thought biological warfare was banned? :o
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609

    Well that didn't take long...twitter trending with BorisTheButcher again....demanding he be held responsible for every death.

    Is Keith happy to let that meme run amongst the membership? Or is he going to start wielding the ban hammer?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. Sandpit, the more death, the more blame. That might be the mad 'thinking'.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    RobD said:

    Depends how you lift lockdown, I suppose. Keep the oldies and at risk in seclusion as much as possible while the rest get it.

    I don't want it though. Think I'll identify as being 97 with hypertension and many stents if that is the route we go down.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sandpit said:

    Well that didn't take long...twitter trending with BorisTheButcher again....demanding he be held responsible for every death.

    From the same people demanding the lockdown ends NOW?
    The people demanding an end to lockdown now seem to be almost exclusively the more Neanderthal Leavers, who seem to see Covid-19 as a plot to delay Brexit, or at the very least to reduce the value of their investments.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    RobD said:

    Well that didn't take long...twitter trending with BorisTheButcher again....demanding he be held responsible for every death.

    Yes, he personally went into all the care homes in France infecting everyone...
    I thought biological warfare was banned? :o
    Since we are running France now, I presume this is an internal matter.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    Feelgood News: the House Martins are back....

    (The birds, rather than the band reforming.)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,602

    Feelgood News: the House Martins are back....

    (The birds, rather than the band reforming.)

    It’s happy hour again?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    edited April 2020

    Gabs3 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Is pollution the reason some places are more affected by Covid-19 than others? Lombardy, Wuhan and London are bad I think

    “Conclusions: A small increase in long-term exposure to PM2.5 leads to a large increase in COVID-19 death rate, with the magnitude of increase 20 times that observed for PM2.5 and all-cause mortality. The study results underscore the importance of continuing to enforce existing air pollution regulations to protect human health both during and after the COVID-19 crisis. The data and code are publicly available.”

    https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/covid-pm/home

    People have mentioned that BAMEs are disproportionately dying from Covid19. Could it be because they tend to live in cities with bad pollution problems rather than any genetic/racial disposition?
    They also have higher rates of diabetes and heart disease. There is a genetic disposition for that.

    I am sure things such as more likely to be living in high density housing, in high density urban with higher pollution environments, higher rates of comorbidities, and more likely to be working customer facing jobs.

    And finally, religion. Going to organized religious events, they are a key transport vector.
    There are also medical drawbacks associated with first cousin marriage.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/7957808/700-children-born-with-genetic-disabilities-due-to-cousin-marriages-every-year.html
    That would be a problem in the Orthodox Jewish population too.
    In both cases, it is a practise that belongs in the past.
    Like religion in general.

    The sooner people leave the occult to the past and to fiction the better.
    Not sure why you're blaming religion. It is not the wellspring of all cultural traditions. I also don't know why you (and so many other atheists) are so bothered about what others believe. It's not very libertarian. If we change from being an intolerant religious society to an intolerant atheist one we haven't gained anything.
    I'm happy to tolerate foolish beliefs. I'm also happy to mock them.

    Where's the discrepancy in that? If you want to believe that some mystical Sky Fairy is OK with you having sex with your cousin but is disturbed by you eating pork and takes attendance as to whether you worship Him properly then why should I not find that absurd?
    First cousin marriage had a very practical reason (in all societies) when family wealth and dynasties were all important. It is certainly not a core tenet of Christianity, probably not of Judaism and Islam (which I know less about). It is a cultural tradition that coincides with the latter two faiths. You're trying to make it all the fault of religion when it isn't.

    Not eating pork also had a very good reason, as (whilst I'd never give up bacon myself) it is far more prone to carrying pathogens than other meats, so if you are an itinerant tribe wandering through the deserts living on the edge of survival, it made excellent sense, as did God's other commandments during that time.

    If you actually think about things rather than immediately resort to silly Dawkins-esque 'zingers' about them you might learn something.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884

    Well that didn't take long...twitter trending with BorisTheButcher again....demanding he be held responsible for every death.

    Yes, he personally went into all the care homes in France infecting everyone...
    but he never quite made it to germany, obviously
  • MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 757
    I just had an obvious thought.

    If you were managing a ward in the NHS, and the Prime Minister came in sick with an illness that can kill unhealthy people, and older people, you'd be thinking that you don't want something to go wrong. If something goes wrong, there's questions asked about you in Parliament, you'll be in the papers, it's a total shitshow. Everyone will be wondering why he wasn't kicked up to ICU when he needed it.

    So, needed or not, he gets kicked up to ICU. Protocol in that situation will be to not tell us directly what's going on anyway.

    I wish I'd thought about it from the nurses' perspective two days ago.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    Sandpit said:

    Well that didn't take long...twitter trending with BorisTheButcher again....demanding he be held responsible for every death.

    From the same people demanding the lockdown ends NOW?
    The people demanding an end to lockdown now seem to be almost exclusively the more Neanderthal Leavers, who seem to see Covid-19 as a plot to delay Brexit, or at the very least to reduce the value of their investments.
    I have seen a number of the people who seem to coming from the whole anti-vax, goop, environmental fruit cake* believing line, going for this as well.


    *Environmentalism as a religion without reference to facts. As opposed to, say, reducing carbon emission each year as part of an orderly policy to achieve a zero carbon society.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065


    Turd? You don't Sa-ay!
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    .

    Feelgood News: the House Martins are back....

    (The birds, rather than the band reforming.)

    But have you heard a cuckoo?
    cf. Meeks earlier.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    Gabs3 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Is pollution the reason some places are more affected by Covid-19 than others? Lombardy, Wuhan and London are bad I think

    “Conclusions: A small increase in long-term exposure to PM2.5 leads to a large increase in COVID-19 death rate, with the magnitude of increase 20 times that observed for PM2.5 and all-cause mortality. The study results underscore the importance of continuing to enforce existing air pollution regulations to protect human health both during and after the COVID-19 crisis. The data and code are publicly available.”

    https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/covid-pm/home

    People have mentioned that BAMEs are disproportionately dying from Covid19. Could it be because they tend to live in cities with bad pollution problems rather than any genetic/racial disposition?
    They also have higher rates of diabetes and heart disease. There is a genetic disposition for that.

    I am sure things such as more likely to be living in high density housing, in high density urban with higher pollution environments, higher rates of comorbidities, and more likely to be working customer facing jobs.

    And finally, religion. Going to organized religious events, they are a key transport vector.
    There are also medical drawbacks associated with first cousin marriage.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/7957808/700-children-born-with-genetic-disabilities-due-to-cousin-marriages-every-year.html
    That would be a problem in the Orthodox Jewish population too.
    In both cases, it is a practise that belongs in the past.
    Like religion in general.

    The sooner people leave the occult to the past and to fiction the better.
    Not sure why you're blaming religion. It is not the wellspring of all cultural traditions. I also don't know why you (and so many other atheists) are so bothered about what others believe. It's not very libertarian. If we change from being an intolerant religious society to an intolerant atheist one we haven't gained anything.
    I'm happy to tolerate foolish beliefs. I'm also happy to mock them.

    Where's the discrepancy in that? If you want to believe that some mystical Sky Fairy is OK with you having sex with your cousin but is disturbed by you eating pork and takes attendance as to whether you worship Him properly then why should I not find that absurd?
    First cousin marriage had a very practical reason (in all societies) when family wealth and dynasties were all important. It is certainly not a core tenet of Christianity, probably not of Judaism and Islam (which I know less about). It is a cultural tradition that coincides with the latter two faiths. You're trying to make it all the fault of religion when it isn't.

    Not eating pork also had a very good reason, as (whilst I'd never give up bacon myself) it is far more prone to carrying pathogens than other meats, so if you are an itinerant tribe wandering through the desserts living on the edge of survival, it made excellent sense, as did God's other commandments during that time.

    If you actually think about things rather than immediately resort to silly Dawkins-esque 'zingers' about them you might learn something.
    Quite - most of the rules are highly practical for living in a world before wide spread food safety, for example. Shellfish were a notorious dice with death thing in the Goode Olde Days*

    Clamping down on boozing - well, examine the reasons that temperance formed a major plank of many socialistic party platform in the 19th Cent/early 20th.

    *Which weren't good, by any modern criteria.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    Can anyone advise which team Boris has taken one for?

    https://twitter.com/holyroodmandy/status/1248552083571253250?s=20

    Taken one for the team or just played a round of russian roulette?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited April 2020

    First cousin marriage had a very practical reason (in all societies) when family wealth and dynasties were all important. It is certainly not a core tenet of Christianity, probably not of Judaism and Islam (which I know less about). It is a cultural tradition that coincides with the latter two faiths. You're trying to make it all the fault of religion when it isn't.

    Not eating pork also had a very good reason, as (whilst I'd never give up bacon myself) it is far more prone to carrying pathogens than other meats, so if you are an itinerant tribe wandering through the desserts living on the edge of survival, it made excellent sense, as did God's other commandments during that time.

    If you actually think about things rather than immediately resort to silly Dawkins-esque 'zingers' about them you might learn something.

    Key word in your paragraphs is the word "had". They "had" a value but modern science has turned that on its head. Modern science does not endorse having sex with your cousin. Hence why I didn't say that religion should never have existed, instead that it belongs in the past. When it "had" value.

    I know that these things had value and have thought about them. Had.

    The problem with religion - and especially Orthodox versions - and what links it to the cultural issues is that it tries to bind people to the beliefs of the past. The idea that someone is quoting the unerring word of god makes it impossible to learn from the present and the past and to move on from the past. It is too conservative with a small c.

    This is the 21st century. We need to learn from the past but be prepared to let go of it too. We don't need to shag our cousins.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773

    Well that didn't take long...twitter trending with BorisTheButcher again....demanding he be held responsible for every death.

    Is Keith happy to let that meme run amongst the membership? Or is he going to start wielding the ban hammer?
    The twitter t**ts are being twitter t**ts again? No suprise
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    England - 866 new deaths.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    England - 866 new deaths.

    Shit
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Gabs3 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Is pollution the reason some places are more affected by Covid-19 than others? Lombardy, Wuhan and London are bad I think

    “Conclusions: A small increase in long-term exposure to PM2.5 leads to a large increase in COVID-19 death rate, with the magnitude of increase 20 times that observed for PM2.5 and all-cause mortality. The study results underscore the importance of continuing to enforce existing air pollution regulations to protect human health both during and after the COVID-19 crisis. The data and code are publicly available.”

    https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/covid-pm/home

    People have mentioned that BAMEs are disproportionately dying from Covid19. Could it be because they tend to live in cities with bad pollution problems rather than any genetic/racial disposition?
    They also have higher rates of diabetes and heart disease. There is a genetic disposition for that.

    I am sure things such as more likely to be living in high density housing, in high density urban with higher pollution environments, higher rates of comorbidities, and more likely to be working customer facing jobs.

    And finally, religion. Going to organized religious events, they are a key transport vector.
    There are also medical drawbacks associated with first cousin marriage.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/7957808/700-children-born-with-genetic-disabilities-due-to-cousin-marriages-every-year.html
    That would be a problem in the Orthodox Jewish population too.
    In both cases, it is a practise that belongs in the past.
    Like religion in general.

    The sooner people leave the occult to the past and to fiction the better.
    Not sure why you're blaming religion. It is not the wellspring of all cultural traditions. I also don't know why you (and so many other atheists) are so bothered about what others believe. It's not very libertarian. If we change from being an intolerant religious society to an intolerant atheist one we haven't gained anything.
    I'm happy to tolerate foolish beliefs. I'm also happy to mock them.

    Where's the discrepancy in that? If you want to believe that some mystical Sky Fairy is OK with you having sex with your cousin but is disturbed by you eating pork and takes attendance as to whether you worship Him properly then why should I not find that absurd?
    First cousin marriage had a very practical reason (in all societies) when family wealth and dynasties were all important. It is certainly not a core tenet of Christianity, probably not of Judaism and Islam (which I know less about). It is a cultural tradition that coincides with the latter two faiths. You're trying to make it all the fault of religion when it isn't.

    Not eating pork also had a very good reason, as (whilst I'd never give up bacon myself) it is far more prone to carrying pathogens than other meats, so if you are an itinerant tribe wandering through the desserts living on the edge of survival, it made excellent sense, as did God's other commandments during that time.

    If you actually think about things rather than immediately resort to silly Dawkins-esque 'zingers' about them you might learn something.
    Quite - most of the rules are highly practical for living in a world before wide spread food safety, for example. Shellfish were a notorious dice with death thing in the Goode Olde Days*

    Clamping down on boozing - well, examine the reasons that temperance formed a major plank of many socialistic party platform in the 19th Cent/early 20th.

    *Which weren't good, by any modern criteria.
    Indeed the rules made sense in the past. They belong to the past, which is what I said originally but for some reason Luckyguy1983 objected to that.
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,507

    kjh said:

    New moths for the year last night included Waved Umber, Lunar Marbled Brown and Brimstone Moth.

    That is stunning. Do they get released?
    Absolutely. Calling it a moth "trap" is a misnomer - really should be called a "lure". Just photo and them and release. (Unless it is something that needs to be collected for some scientific study. There are some species that just cannot be determined to species by observation. But that is quite rare.)
    my local green space reckons to have some five-spot burnet moths. i've been through a few times as part of my daily exercise but not spotted one yet.

    internet says they don't live in yorkshire so maybe they're six-spot and the information board is wrong. i've seen the six-spot at the local RSPB reserve. handsome fellows and happy to be out during the day.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482

    Gabs3 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Is pollution the reason some places are more affected by Covid-19 than others? Lombardy, Wuhan and London are bad I think

    “Conclusions: A small increase in long-term exposure to PM2.5 leads to a large increase in COVID-19 death rate, with the magnitude of increase 20 times that observed for PM2.5 and all-cause mortality. The study results underscore the importance of continuing to enforce existing air pollution regulations to protect human health both during and after the COVID-19 crisis. The data and code are publicly available.”

    https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/covid-pm/home

    People have mentioned that BAMEs are disproportionately dying from Covid19. Could it be because they tend to live in cities with bad pollution problems rather than any genetic/racial disposition?
    They also have higher rates of diabetes and heart disease. There is a genetic disposition for that.

    I am sure things such as more likely to be living in high density housing, in high density urban with higher pollution environments, higher rates of comorbidities, and more likely to be working customer facing jobs.

    And finally, religion. Going to organized religious events, they are a key transport vector.
    There are also medical drawbacks associated with first cousin marriage.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/7957808/700-children-born-with-genetic-disabilities-due-to-cousin-marriages-every-year.html
    That would be a problem in the Orthodox Jewish population too.
    In both cases, it is a practise that belongs in the past.
    Like religion in general.

    The sooner people leave the occult to the past and to fiction the better.
    Not sure why you're blaming religion. It is not the wellspring of all cultural traditions. I also don't know why you (and so many other atheists) are so bothered about what others believe. It's not very libertarian. If we change from being an intolerant religious society to an intolerant atheist one we haven't gained anything.
    I'm happy to tolerate foolish beliefs. I'm also happy to mock them.

    Where's the discrepancy in that? If you want to believe that some mystical Sky Fairy is OK with you having sex with your cousin but is disturbed by you eating pork and takes attendance as to whether you worship Him properly then why should I not find that absurd?
    First cousin marriage had a very practical reason (in all societies) when family wealth and dynasties were all important. It is certainly not a core tenet of Christianity, probably not of Judaism and Islam (which I know less about). It is a cultural tradition that coincides with the latter two faiths. You're trying to make it all the fault of religion when it isn't.

    Not eating pork also had a very good reason, as (whilst I'd never give up bacon myself) it is far more prone to carrying pathogens than other meats, so if you are an itinerant tribe wandering through the desserts living on the edge of survival, it made excellent sense, as did God's other commandments during that time.

    If you actually think about things rather than immediately resort to silly Dawkins-esque 'zingers' about them you might learn something.
    Quite - most of the rules are highly practical for living in a world before wide spread food safety, for example. Shellfish were a notorious dice with death thing in the Goode Olde Days*

    Clamping down on boozing - well, examine the reasons that temperance formed a major plank of many socialistic party platform in the 19th Cent/early 20th.

    *Which weren't good, by any modern criteria.
    By the way, that should read 'wandering through the deserts' :neutral:
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Monkeys said:

    I just had an obvious thought.

    If you were managing a ward in the NHS, and the Prime Minister came in sick with an illness that can kill unhealthy people, and older people, you'd be thinking that you don't want something to go wrong. If something goes wrong, there's questions asked about you in Parliament, you'll be in the papers, it's a total shitshow. Everyone will be wondering why he wasn't kicked up to ICU when he needed it.

    So, needed or not, he gets kicked up to ICU. Protocol in that situation will be to not tell us directly what's going on anyway.

    I wish I'd thought about it from the nurses' perspective two days ago.

    Yes. Play it super safe. That is what happened.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    edited April 2020

    Can anyone advise which team Boris has taken one for?

    https://twitter.com/holyroodmandy/status/1248552083571253250?s=20

    I would have thought the pathetic word-police babies would have moved on by now. Clearly not.
    I would have thought Stanley should have been pensioned off to spout his shite in the privacy of his own (1st, 2nd or 3rd) homes by now, but no, here, there and everywhere having said shite amplified across the nations.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Just watched the entire Money Heist Netflix Series.

    Its very addictive. Feels like 3 days non stop.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482

    Gabs3 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Is pollution the reason some places are more affected by Covid-19 than others? Lombardy, Wuhan and London are bad I think

    “Conclusions: A small increase in long-term exposure to PM2.5 leads to a large increase in COVID-19 death rate, with the magnitude of increase 20 times that observed for PM2.5 and all-cause mortality. The study results underscore the importance of continuing to enforce existing air pollution regulations to protect human health both during and after the COVID-19 crisis. The data and code are publicly available.”

    https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/covid-pm/home

    People have mentioned that BAMEs are disproportionately dying from Covid19. Could it be because they tend to live in cities with bad pollution problems rather than any genetic/racial disposition?
    They also have higher rates of diabetes and heart disease. There is a genetic disposition for that.

    I am sure things such as more likely to be living in high density housing, in high density urban with higher pollution environments, higher rates of comorbidities, and more likely to be working customer facing jobs.

    And finally, religion. Going to organized religious events, they are a key transport vector.
    There are also medical drawbacks associated with first cousin marriage.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/7957808/700-children-born-with-genetic-disabilities-due-to-cousin-marriages-every-year.html
    That would be a problem in the Orthodox Jewish population too.
    In both cases, it is a practise that belongs in the past.
    Like religion in general.

    The sooner people leave the occult to the past and to fiction the better.
    Not sure why you're blaming religion. It is not the wellspring of all cultural traditions. I also don't know why you (and so many other atheists) are so bothered about what others believe. It's not very libertarian. If we change from being an intolerant religious society to an intolerant atheist one we haven't gained anything.
    I'm happy to tolerate foolish beliefs. I'm also happy to mock them.

    Where's the discrepancy in that? If you want to believe that some mystical Sky Fairy is OK with you having sex with your cousin but is disturbed by you eating pork and takes attendance as to whether you worship Him properly then why should I not find that absurd?
    First cousin marriage had a very practical reason (in all societies) when family wealth and dynasties were all important. It is certainly not a core tenet of Christianity, probably not of Judaism and Islam (which I know less about). It is a cultural tradition that coincides with the latter two faiths. You're trying to make it all the fault of religion when it isn't.

    Not eating pork also had a very good reason, as (whilst I'd never give up bacon myself) it is far more prone to carrying pathogens than other meats, so if you are an itinerant tribe wandering through the desserts living on the edge of survival, it made excellent sense, as did God's other commandments during that time.

    If you actually think about things rather than immediately resort to silly Dawkins-esque 'zingers' about them you might learn something.
    Quite - most of the rules are highly practical for living in a world before wide spread food safety, for example. Shellfish were a notorious dice with death thing in the Goode Olde Days*

    Clamping down on boozing - well, examine the reasons that temperance formed a major plank of many socialistic party platform in the 19th Cent/early 20th.

    *Which weren't good, by any modern criteria.
    Indeed the rules made sense in the past. They belong to the past, which is what I said originally but for some reason Luckyguy1983 objected to that.
    My point was, this is an outdated cultural tradition. There was no need to link this with religion at all.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898

    Well that didn't take long...twitter trending with BorisTheButcher again....demanding he be held responsible for every death.

    Is Keith happy to let that meme run amongst the membership? Or is he going to start wielding the ban hammer?
    Are you suggesting Sir Keir Starmer Is responsible or should be held accountable for every anti-Conservative or anti-Boris Johnson tweet? Seriously.

    You do know not everyone who writes distasteful anti-Conservative or anti-Boris tweets is a member of the Labour Party?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225

    Just watched the entire Money Heist Netflix Series.

    Its very addictive. Feels like 3 days non stop.

    Yes, I started that.
    Utterly absurd, but entertaining once you embrace the absurdity.
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191

    Feelgood News: the House Martins are back....

    (The birds, rather than the band reforming.)

    Our swallows returned last Sunday, which the earliest we've ever known.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    Of the 866 new deaths announced today, 117 occurred on 9 April while 720 took place between 1 April and 8 April.

    The remaining 29 deaths occurred in March, including one on March 5.
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758

    England - 866 new deaths.

    Not nice but looking fairly stable over last few days which is actually a good thing. Equating to a daily rate of approx 650 - 700? (Bear in mind that 866 deaths occurred on 16 different days although mainly on the last 4 or 5 days.)
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250
    stodge said:

    Well that didn't take long...twitter trending with BorisTheButcher again....demanding he be held responsible for every death.

    Is Keith happy to let that meme run amongst the membership? Or is he going to start wielding the ban hammer?
    Are you suggesting Sir Keir Starmer Is responsible or should be held accountable for every anti-Conservative or anti-Boris Johnson tweet? Seriously.

    You do know not everyone who writes distasteful anti-Conservative or anti-Boris tweets is a member of the Labour Party?
    Sir Kendrick is likely to be evaluated on the basis of the behaviour of those who are, however.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,752

    New moths for the year last night included Waved Umber, Lunar Marbled Brown and Brimstone Moth.

    Really nice. I think they are quite common. They can be quite conspicuous at dusk flying out in the open. Usually see them at the bottom of my garden among the trees. Hope to attract them to my trap - but probably will be a few weeks from now as I'm 500 miles to the north of MM.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898

    England - 866 new deaths.

    The peak was going to be this weekend according to the medical experts. Let's hope they are right but clearly the journey from here to easing lock down restrictions is going to be a long one.

    Interesting to read the link between PM 2.5 levels and the virus. I've long suspected viruses and other microbial matter interacts with pollutants - pollens certainly do. We could do a lot use than try to improve air quality and if this provides a kick up the backside to do that I won't argue.

    Is it so unreasonable to prefer being poorer and having cleaner air to breathe than being richer and polluted?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Nigelb said:

    Just watched the entire Money Heist Netflix Series.

    Its very addictive. Feels like 3 days non stop.

    Yes, I started that.
    Utterly absurd, but entertaining once you embrace the absurdity.
    Amazing ratings 4.9 out of 5

    Think i would give it about that too.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    stodge said:

    England - 866 new deaths.

    The peak was going to be this weekend according to the medical experts. Let's hope they are right but clearly the journey from here to easing lock down restrictions is going to be a long one.

    Interesting to read the link between PM 2.5 levels and the virus. I've long suspected viruses and other microbial matter interacts with pollutants - pollens certainly do. We could do a lot use than try to improve air quality and if this provides a kick up the backside to do that I won't argue.

    Is it so unreasonable to prefer being poorer and having cleaner air to breathe than being richer and polluted?
    Its a false dichotomy though. Science and technology can help us produce things cleaner and we can only do that if we're rich.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Gabs3 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Is pollution the reason some places are more affected by Covid-19 than others? Lombardy, Wuhan and London are bad I think

    “Conclusions: A small increase in long-term exposure to PM2.5 leads to a large increase in COVID-19 death rate, with the magnitude of increase 20 times that observed for PM2.5 and all-cause mortality. The study results underscore the importance of continuing to enforce existing air pollution regulations to protect human health both during and after the COVID-19 crisis. The data and code are publicly available.”

    https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/covid-pm/home

    People have mentioned that BAMEs are disproportionately dying from Covid19. Could it be because they tend to live in cities with bad pollution problems rather than any genetic/racial disposition?
    They also have higher rates of diabetes and heart disease. There is a genetic disposition for that.

    I am sure things such as more likely to be living in high density housing, in high density urban with higher pollution environments, higher rates of comorbidities, and more likely to be working customer facing jobs.

    And finally, religion. Going to organized religious events, they are a key transport vector.
    There are also medical drawbacks associated with first cousin marriage.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/7957808/700-children-born-with-genetic-disabilities-due-to-cousin-marriages-every-year.html
    That would be a problem in the Orthodox Jewish population too.
    In both cases, it is a practise that belongs in the past.
    Like religion in general.

    The sooner people leave the occult to the past and to fiction the better.
    Not sure why you're blaming religion. It is not the wellspring of all cultural traditions. I also don't know why you (and so many other atheists) are so bothered about what others believe. It's not very libertarian. If we change from being an intolerant religious society to an intolerant atheist one we haven't gained anything.
    I'm happy to tolerate foolish beliefs. I'm also happy to mock them.

    Where's the discrepancy in that? If you want to believe that some mystical Sky Fairy is OK with you having sex with your cousin but is disturbed by you eating pork and takes attendance as to whether you worship Him properly then why should I not find that absurd?
    First cousin marriage had a very practical reason (in all societies) when family wealth and dynasties were all important. It is certainly not a core tenet of Christianity, probably not of Judaism and Islam (which I know less about). It is a cultural tradition that coincides with the latter two faiths. You're trying to make it all the fault of religion when it isn't.

    Not eating pork also had a very good reason, as (whilst I'd never give up bacon myself) it is far more prone to carrying pathogens than other meats, so if you are an itinerant tribe wandering through the desserts living on the edge of survival, it made excellent sense, as did God's other commandments during that time.

    If you actually think about things rather than immediately resort to silly Dawkins-esque 'zingers' about them you might learn something.
    Quite - most of the rules are highly practical for living in a world before wide spread food safety, for example. Shellfish were a notorious dice with death thing in the Goode Olde Days*

    Clamping down on boozing - well, examine the reasons that temperance formed a major plank of many socialistic party platform in the 19th Cent/early 20th.

    *Which weren't good, by any modern criteria.
    Indeed the rules made sense in the past. They belong to the past, which is what I said originally but for some reason Luckyguy1983 objected to that.
    My point was, this is an outdated cultural tradition. There was no need to link this with religion at all.
    You linked with religion before me. The post I replied to referred to Orthodox Jews.

    People cling to this cultural nonsense because of religious nonsense.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708
    stodge said:

    Is it so unreasonable to prefer being poorer and having cleaner air to breathe than being richer and polluted?

    You could always move out of London.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    This is a serious challenge to Mike's conventional wisdom of what determines elections...
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/04/joe-biden-democratic-nominee-why.html
    ...This has been true all along—and perhaps mysteriously, it has worked to Biden’s advantage. While Sanders and Elizabeth Warren supporters were louder, had an enormous online footprint, and advanced arguments and issues that have changed the party, it was Biden voters who turned out in droves in the primary, despite their silence online. This has made the nominee’s victory feel confusing. It demands an explanation that common-sense theories about how political enthusiasm, exposure, and airtime should affect turnout cannot provide. Despite an apparent lack of enthusiastic adherents, an associated lack of funds, underwhelming debate performances, and no clear agenda, Biden floated to victory. The question is why—and can whatever powered him to the top do the same in the general?...
  • Nigelb said:

    Just watched the entire Money Heist Netflix Series.

    Its very addictive. Feels like 3 days non stop.

    Yes, I started that.
    Utterly absurd, but entertaining once you embrace the absurdity.
    Amazing ratings 4.9 out of 5

    Think i would give it about that too.
    Watch Tiger King.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117
    Fuck me..only 49%.....if you don't feel more anxious or depressed at this time with the zombie apocalypse being enacted outside our homes what would have to happen to make these 51% more anxious than usual....
  • I make it 953 Covid-19 UK wide related deaths.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117

    New moths for the year last night included Waved Umber, Lunar Marbled Brown and Brimstone Moth.

    Really nice. I think they are quite common. They can be quite conspicuous at dusk flying out in the open. Usually see them at the bottom of my garden among the trees. Hope to attract them to my trap - but probably will be a few weeks from now as I'm 500 miles to the north of MM.
    I hope you are not murdering these moths for some kind of collection...please let me know the moths are unharmed....
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    stodge said:

    England - 866 new deaths.

    The peak was going to be this weekend according to the medical experts. Let's hope they are right but clearly the journey from here to easing lock down restrictions is going to be a long one.

    Interesting to read the link between PM 2.5 levels and the virus. I've long suspected viruses and other microbial matter interacts with pollutants - pollens certainly do. We could do a lot use than try to improve air quality and if this provides a kick up the backside to do that I won't argue.

    Is it so unreasonable to prefer being poorer and having cleaner air to breathe than being richer and polluted?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898

    stodge said:


    Is it so unreasonable to prefer being poorer and having cleaner air to breathe than being richer and polluted?

    Its a false dichotomy though. Science and technology can help us produce things cleaner and we can only do that if we're rich.
    Probably more a question of poor wording. A key aim and objective of prosperity should be improving our environment and one aspect of that should be utilising technological innovation to improve air quality.

    Progress has been made - cars are infinitely cleaner than they were but there are more of them and it's probable the days of diesel are numbered.

    To try to get round my Friday dichotomy I'd argue the goal of prosperity should be the improvement of the environment rather than simple material enhancement while accepting there's a place for the latter.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited April 2020

    I make it 953 Covid-19 UK wide related deaths.

    Just queuing to get in Aldi, thought of you!
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898

    stodge said:

    Is it so unreasonable to prefer being poorer and having cleaner air to breathe than being richer and polluted?

    You could always move out of London.
    I'd rather we tackled the problem collectively than I choose to run away from it. In any case, poor air quality and pollution are everywhere not just at street level in London.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    isam said:


    stodge said:

    England - 866 new deaths.

    The peak was going to be this weekend according to the medical experts. Let's hope they are right but clearly the journey from here to easing lock down restrictions is going to be a long one.

    Interesting to read the link between PM 2.5 levels and the virus. I've long suspected viruses and other microbial matter interacts with pollutants - pollens certainly do. We could do a lot use than try to improve air quality and if this provides a kick up the backside to do that I won't argue.

    Is it so unreasonable to prefer being poorer and having cleaner air to breathe than being richer and polluted?
    How'd they get there to take the photo?
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    tyson said:

    Fuck me..only 49%.....if you don't feel more anxious or depressed at this time with the zombie apocalypse being enacted outside our homes what would have to happen to make these 51% more anxious than usual....

    Gotta die of something. And the bell tolls for all of us at some point.

    When I'm dead, I won't know about it. So why worry about it? Why worry about something out of your control?

    My investment portfolio, on the other hand, worries me greatly. For it is sure to have a long-term impact on my quality of life.

    The 22% worried about their finances seems rather low to me. I suppose most people are happy to be enjoying a 3 month holiday on 80% of their salary.

    But do they really expect the government to keep paying them in four months, five months, six, if the lockdown continues? And if it does not, will they still have jobs?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,602

    Gabs3 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Is pollution the reason some places are more affected by Covid-19 than others? Lombardy, Wuhan and London are bad I think

    “Conclusions: A small increase in long-term exposure to PM2.5 leads to a large increase in COVID-19 death rate, with the magnitude of increase 20 times that observed for PM2.5 and all-cause mortality. The study results underscore the importance of continuing to enforce existing air pollution regulations to protect human health both during and after the COVID-19 crisis. The data and code are publicly available.”

    https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/covid-pm/home

    People have mentioned that BAMEs are disproportionately dying from Covid19. Could it be because they tend to live in cities with bad pollution problems rather than any genetic/racial disposition?
    They also have higher rates of diabetes and heart disease. There is a genetic disposition for that.

    I am sure things such as more likely to be living in high density housing, in high density urban with higher pollution environments, higher rates of comorbidities, and more likely to be working customer facing jobs.

    And finally, religion. Going to organized religious events, they are a key transport vector.
    There are also medical drawbacks associated with first cousin marriage.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/7957808/700-children-born-with-genetic-disabilities-due-to-cousin-marriages-every-year.html
    That would be a problem in the Orthodox Jewish population too.
    In both cases, it is a practise that belongs in the past.
    Like religion in general.

    The sooner people leave the occult to the past and to fiction the better.
    Not sure why you're blaming religion. It is not the wellspring of all cultural traditions. I also don't know why you (and so many other atheists) are so bothered about what others believe. It's not very libertarian. If we change from being an intolerant religious society to an intolerant atheist one we haven't gained anything.
    I'm happy to tolerate foolish beliefs. I'm also happy to mock them.

    Where's the discrepancy in that? If you want to believe that some mystical Sky Fairy is OK with you having sex with your cousin but is disturbed by you eating pork and takes attendance as to whether you worship Him properly then why should I not find that absurd?
    First cousin marriage had a very practical reason (in all societies) when family wealth and dynasties were all important. It is certainly not a core tenet of Christianity, probably not of Judaism and Islam (which I know less about). It is a cultural tradition that coincides with the latter two faiths. You're trying to make it all the fault of religion when it isn't.

    Not eating pork also had a very good reason, as (whilst I'd never give up bacon myself) it is far more prone to carrying pathogens than other meats, so if you are an itinerant tribe wandering through the desserts living on the edge of survival, it made excellent sense, as did God's other commandments during that time.

    If you actually think about things rather than immediately resort to silly Dawkins-esque 'zingers' about them you might learn something.
    Quite - most of the rules are highly practical for living in a world before wide spread food safety, for example. Shellfish were a notorious dice with death thing in the Goode Olde Days*

    Clamping down on boozing - well, examine the reasons that temperance formed a major plank of many socialistic party platform in the 19th Cent/early 20th.

    *Which weren't good, by any modern criteria.
    Indeed the rules made sense in the past. They belong to the past, which is what I said originally but for some reason Luckyguy1983 objected to that.
    The Ten Commandments still stand up pretty well in the modern world, can’t imagine many people disagree with any of them.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    RobD said:

    isam said:


    stodge said:

    England - 866 new deaths.

    The peak was going to be this weekend according to the medical experts. Let's hope they are right but clearly the journey from here to easing lock down restrictions is going to be a long one.

    Interesting to read the link between PM 2.5 levels and the virus. I've long suspected viruses and other microbial matter interacts with pollutants - pollens certainly do. We could do a lot use than try to improve air quality and if this provides a kick up the backside to do that I won't argue.

    Is it so unreasonable to prefer being poorer and having cleaner air to breathe than being richer and polluted?
    How'd they get there to take the photo?
    c2c from Basildon
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,752
    tyson said:

    New moths for the year last night included Waved Umber, Lunar Marbled Brown and Brimstone Moth.

    Really nice. I think they are quite common. They can be quite conspicuous at dusk flying out in the open. Usually see them at the bottom of my garden among the trees. Hope to attract them to my trap - but probably will be a few weeks from now as I'm 500 miles to the north of MM.
    I hope you are not murdering these moths for some kind of collection...please let me know the moths are unharmed....
    Let your mind be at peace. The moths are certainly unharmed. Released in the morning. Some are a bit dozy and are carefully placed somewhere safe in the garden.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    As one or two of us on here enjoy the occasional bet, an interesting comment piece in the RP from Michael Dugher:

    https://www.racingpost.com/news/comment/anti-gambling-hardliners-cant-self-isolate-themselves-from-the-facts/431352
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    isam said:

    RobD said:

    isam said:


    stodge said:

    England - 866 new deaths.

    The peak was going to be this weekend according to the medical experts. Let's hope they are right but clearly the journey from here to easing lock down restrictions is going to be a long one.

    Interesting to read the link between PM 2.5 levels and the virus. I've long suspected viruses and other microbial matter interacts with pollutants - pollens certainly do. We could do a lot use than try to improve air quality and if this provides a kick up the backside to do that I won't argue.

    Is it so unreasonable to prefer being poorer and having cleaner air to breathe than being richer and polluted?
    How'd they get there to take the photo?
    c2c from Basildon
    :D
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    Nigelb said:

    This is a serious challenge to Mike's conventional wisdom of what determines elections...
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/04/joe-biden-democratic-nominee-why.html
    ...This has been true all along—and perhaps mysteriously, it has worked to Biden’s advantage. While Sanders and Elizabeth Warren supporters were louder, had an enormous online footprint, and advanced arguments and issues that have changed the party, it was Biden voters who turned out in droves in the primary, despite their silence online. This has made the nominee’s victory feel confusing. It demands an explanation that common-sense theories about how political enthusiasm, exposure, and airtime should affect turnout cannot provide. Despite an apparent lack of enthusiastic adherents, an associated lack of funds, underwhelming debate performances, and no clear agenda, Biden floated to victory. The question is why—and can whatever powered him to the top do the same in the general?...

    That's an excellent (and witty) piece. Let's hope he's right.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878
    Sandpit said:

    Gabs3 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Is pollution the reason some places are more affected by Covid-19 than others? Lombardy, Wuhan and London are bad I think

    “Conclusions: A small increase in long-term exposure to PM2.5 leads to a large increase in COVID-19 death rate, with the magnitude of increase 20 times that observed for PM2.5 and all-cause mortality. The study results underscore the importance of continuing to enforce existing air pollution regulations to protect human health both during and after the COVID-19 crisis. The data and code are publicly available.”

    https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/covid-pm/home

    People have mentioned that BAMEs are disproportionately dying from Covid19. Could it be because they tend to live in cities with bad pollution problems rather than any genetic/racial disposition?
    They also have higher rates of diabetes and heart disease. There is a genetic disposition for that.

    I am sure things such as more likely to be living in high density housing, in high density urban with higher pollution environments, higher rates of comorbidities, and more likely to be working customer facing jobs.

    And finally, religion. Going to organized religious events, they are a key transport vector.
    There are also medical drawbacks associated with first cousin marriage.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/7957808/700-children-born-with-genetic-disabilities-due-to-cousin-marriages-every-year.html
    That would be a problem in the Orthodox Jewish population too.
    In both cases, it is a practise that belongs in the past.
    Like religion in general.

    The sooner people leave the occult to the past and to fiction the better.
    Not sure why you're blaming religion. It is not the wellspring of all cultural traditions. I also don't know why you (and so many other atheists) are so bothered about what others believe. It's not very libertarian. If we change from being an intolerant religious society to an intolerant atheist one we haven't gained anything.
    I'm happy to tolerate foolish beliefs. I'm also happy to mock them.

    Where's the discrepancy in that? If you want to believe that some mystical Sky Fairy is OK with you having sex with your cousin but is disturbed by you eating pork and takes attendance as to whether you worship Him properly then why should I not find that absurd?
    First cousin marriage had a very practical reason (in all societies) when family wealth and dynasties were all important. It is certainly not a core tenet of Christianity, probably not of Judaism and Islam (which I know less about). It is a cultural tradition that coincides with the latter two faiths. You're trying to make it all the fault of religion when it isn't.

    Not eating pork also had a very good reason, as (whilst I'd never give up bacon myself) it is far more prone to carrying pathogens than other meats, so if you are an itinerant tribe wandering through the desserts living on the edge of survival, it made excellent sense, as did God's other commandments during that time.

    If you actually think about things rather than immediately resort to silly Dawkins-esque 'zingers' about them you might learn something.
    Quite - most of the rules are highly practical for living in a world before wide spread food safety, for example. Shellfish were a notorious dice with death thing in the Goode Olde Days*

    Clamping down on boozing - well, examine the reasons that temperance formed a major plank of many socialistic party platform in the 19th Cent/early 20th.

    *Which weren't good, by any modern criteria.
    Indeed the rules made sense in the past. They belong to the past, which is what I said originally but for some reason Luckyguy1983 objected to that.
    The Ten Commandments still stand up pretty well in the modern world, can’t imagine many people disagree with any of them.
    A rip-off from the 42 Negative Confessions in ancient Egypt! Remember, Moses was brought up in the Egyptian court.

    https://houseoftruth.education/en/library/sacred-writings/egyptian-book-of-the-dead-42-negative-confessions

  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250

    stodge said:

    England - 866 new deaths.

    The peak was going to be this weekend according to the medical experts. Let's hope they are right but clearly the journey from here to easing lock down restrictions is going to be a long one.

    Interesting to read the link between PM 2.5 levels and the virus. I've long suspected viruses and other microbial matter interacts with pollutants - pollens certainly do. We could do a lot use than try to improve air quality and if this provides a kick up the backside to do that I won't argue.

    Is it so unreasonable to prefer being poorer and having cleaner air to breathe than being richer and polluted?
    Its a false dichotomy though. Science and technology can help us produce things cleaner and we can only do that if we're rich.
    I'm not sure that "the medical experts" are a homogenous group.

    I'm still expecting it rather later.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878

    I make it 953 Covid-19 UK wide related deaths.

    Well, that's great. That's just fuckin' great, man! Now what the fuck are we supposed to do? We're in some real pretty shit now, man!
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,567
    THIS THREAD IS NOW SITTING ON A PARK BENCH AND BEING APPROACHED BY TWO POLICE OFFICERS. HEAD FOR THE PARK EXIT QUICK
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    stodge said:

    Well that didn't take long...twitter trending with BorisTheButcher again....demanding he be held responsible for every death.

    Is Keith happy to let that meme run amongst the membership? Or is he going to start wielding the ban hammer?
    Are you suggesting Sir Keir Starmer Is responsible or should be held accountable for every anti-Conservative or anti-Boris Johnson tweet? Seriously.

    You do know not everyone who writes distasteful anti-Conservative or anti-Boris tweets is a member of the Labour Party?
    But those who do? They get a free pass because of non-Party members saying the same?

    That sounds very Corbynite in its unwillingness to act....
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,041
    Monkeys said:

    I just had an obvious thought.

    If you were managing a ward in the NHS, and the Prime Minister came in sick with an illness that can kill unhealthy people, and older people, you'd be thinking that you don't want something to go wrong. If something goes wrong, there's questions asked about you in Parliament, you'll be in the papers, it's a total shitshow. Everyone will be wondering why he wasn't kicked up to ICU when he needed it.

    So, needed or not, he gets kicked up to ICU. Protocol in that situation will be to not tell us directly what's going on anyway.

    I wish I'd thought about it from the nurses' perspective two days ago.

    I've just had another thought. What happens to the PM's personal protection types?
This discussion has been closed.