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  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:

    Is that it??? If you are self employed or you rent you truly are screwed.

    Next set of "we've had a rethink" measures next Monday?

    The people who are paying rent should be getting money through the scheme just announced.
    What does a self employed person get, bottom line? Their income is getting hit just as hard as an employee.
    All I heard announced was the deferral of the income tax. They are clearly lacking in that area, so maybe some additional movement in that area once a scheme has been worked out. I expect it is quite tricky, with a lot of edge cases.
    And VAT deferrals

    Plus UC equivalent to statutory sick pay
    That's a legitimate fuck you to the self employed. What would be wrong with taking an average of their monthly income over the last 12 months and doing up to 80% with the same £2.5k limit. No need for benefits or universal credit or waiting times etc...

    This is going to put a lot of people on the breadline as rent comes due and the money isn't in the bank. It needs to be addressed ASAP.
    Rishi said that employment relief would come via PAYE, which is an established system.

    I do wonder if there is more that can be done for the self-employed, but the scheme you are suggested would mean the creation of a whole new system. It won't be able to assist with this month's rent.
    Not really, the government have people's tax returns and their bank details, it wouldn't be very difficult.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123

    We're going to have people on minimum wage working in supermarkets, putting their lives at risk and paying tax to go to people on much higher wages to sit at home doing nothing.

    It's absurd.

    I knew it wouldn't be long before that point was made on here.

    Will Jezza be brave enough to make it?
  • SunnyJimSunnyJim Posts: 1,106

    We're going to have people on minimum wage working in supermarkets, putting their lives at risk and paying tax to go to people on much higher wages to sit at home doing nothing.

    It's absurd.

    This is a huge package which should be praised for its boldness.

    Yes, if you wanted to be inappropriately partisan you could search out examples of people who win a little more than others.

    It would be pretty churlish though.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Tom Newton Dunn with the dumbest question of the day.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    edited March 2020

    MaxPB said:

    I don't understand why self employed people don't get the same protection as employed people. Give them 80% of their average monthly income from the previous financial year up to £2.5k, expect this to get messy over the weekend. Statutory sick pay is a joke and insult to millions of self employed people who are losing clients and business as much as people are being put out of work.

    The self employed have a different tax and benefits regime to the employed and are deemed to take on more risk. While this is an unprecedented situation, maybe it is still felt that a 3-month furlough in trade is par for the course and you should be prepared to accept it.
    Being self-employed, I have always budgeted carefully and kept a few years' worth of cash in the bank (or in relatively liquid sources at any rate) just in case work went pear-shaped or (more likely in my case) poor health stopped me working for 12 months or more. I was in pretty good shape even to take on this kind of massive disruption. But then my work has always been both very seasonal and with substantial year-to-year variability. My financial preparations reflected my need to manage this kind of risk.

    There are self-employed people whose risk profile is very different to mine though, and who manage a steady stream of work. It's a very diverse sector of the economy and not sure how wise it is to lump us all together, which means any response for our needs is very hard to tailor. Sometimes it makes sense to treat us more like an unincorporated business and sometimes more sense to treat us like a worker.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    We're going to have people on minimum wage working in supermarkets, putting their lives at risk and paying tax to go to people on much higher wages to sit at home doing nothing.

    It's absurd.

    Seriously - this is unprecedented and there will be no perfect responses
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,450
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:

    Is that it??? If you are self employed or you rent you truly are screwed.

    Next set of "we've had a rethink" measures next Monday?

    The people who are paying rent should be getting money through the scheme just announced.
    What does a self employed person get, bottom line? Their income is getting hit just as hard as an employee.
    All I heard announced was the deferral of the income tax. They are clearly lacking in that area, so maybe some additional movement in that area once a scheme has been worked out. I expect it is quite tricky, with a lot of edge cases.
    And VAT deferrals

    Plus UC equivalent to statutory sick pay
    That's a legitimate fuck you to the self employed. What would be wrong with taking an average of their monthly income over the last 12 months and doing up to 80% with the same £2.5k limit. No need for benefits or universal credit or waiting times etc...

    This is going to put a lot of people on the breadline as rent comes due and the money isn't in the bank. It needs to be addressed ASAP.
    Rishi said that employment relief would come via PAYE, which is an established system.

    I do wonder if there is more that can be done for the self-employed, but the scheme you are suggested would mean the creation of a whole new system. It won't be able to assist with this month's rent.
    Not really, the government have people's tax returns and their bank details, it wouldn't be very difficult.
    For the 2018-2019 tax year.

    I do also note that plenty of self-employed people are in a rather different boat to the freelancer, whom I think you have in mind.

    Any who employ their own staff or run a retail business will benefit from the government's other measures.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Mr. NorthWales, Pitt had been PM for a decade and a half at that age. And Alexander died about seven years or so before reaching that age.

    Worth reflecting he's in his role because Javid wouldn't accept the special adviser situation (which won much praise, including from me, for having the guts to walk).
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,599
    If there are no significant caveats that have not been included in the announcement then yes, this should prevent mass unemployment in the employed sector for a 3-4 month lockdown. They need to do more for self employed, but well done on the employed.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    All depends on the smallprint.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    We're going to have people on minimum wage working in supermarkets, putting their lives at risk and paying tax to go to people on much higher wages to sit at home doing nothing.

    It's absurd.

    Lucky the Conservatives have raised the tax allowances regularly over the last few years.

    Opposed by Labour of course.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:

    Is that it??? If you are self employed or you rent you truly are screwed.

    Next set of "we've had a rethink" measures next Monday?

    The people who are paying rent should be getting money through the scheme just announced.
    What does a self employed person get, bottom line? Their income is getting hit just as hard as an employee.
    All I heard announced was the deferral of the income tax. They are clearly lacking in that area, so maybe some additional movement in that area once a scheme has been worked out. I expect it is quite tricky, with a lot of edge cases.
    And VAT deferrals

    Plus UC equivalent to statutory sick pay
    That's a legitimate fuck you to the self employed. What would be wrong with taking an average of their monthly income over the last 12 months and doing up to 80% with the same £2.5k limit. No need for benefits or universal credit or waiting times etc...

    This is going to put a lot of people on the breadline as rent comes due and the money isn't in the bank. It needs to be addressed ASAP.
    Rishi said that employment relief would come via PAYE, which is an established system.

    I do wonder if there is more that can be done for the self-employed, but the scheme you are suggested would mean the creation of a whole new system. It won't be able to assist with this month's rent.
    Not really, the government have people's tax returns and their bank details, it wouldn't be very difficult.
    For the 2018-2019 tax year.

    I do also note that plenty of self-employed people are in a rather different boat to the freelancer, whom I think you have in mind.

    Any who employ their own staff or run a retail business will benefit from the government's other measures.
    I'm thinking more of tradespeople and sub-contractors. They won't physically be able to work as sites are closed and right now they have a huge loss of income but no support.
  • DAlexanderDAlexander Posts: 815
    RobD said:

    We're going to have people on minimum wage working in supermarkets, putting their lives at risk and paying tax to go to people on much higher wages to sit at home doing nothing.

    It's absurd.

    What's your suggestion?
    Basic income for everyone. Fair, helps everyone equally and doesn't create winners and losers on arbitrary measurements.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,210
    IshmaelZ said:

    There's enough PPE now? Excellent if true.

    I think there always was. It just wasn't necessarily in the right place
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,664
    What do we think?

    5 million employees @ £1,333 per month (*) = £6.66 bn per month.

    So £40bn if 6 months, £80bn if a year

    (*) Average employee salary £20k as those affected likely to be below average salary.

    £20k/12 = £1,667 * 0.8 = £1,333
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828
    TGOHF666 said:

    We're going to have people on minimum wage working in supermarkets, putting their lives at risk and paying tax to go to people on much higher wages to sit at home doing nothing.

    It's absurd.

    Lucky the Conservatives have raised the tax allowances regularly over the last few years.

    Opposed by Labour of course.
    The poor Lib Dems never get any credit for that. :p
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828
    Amazing that none of the journalists picked up on the self-employment question.

    Why are no PBers in the lobby?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Floater said:

    Italy now appears to say plus 15K new cases?

    IGNORE - the figures on worldometer changed back
  • Mr. NorthWales, Pitt had been PM for a decade and a half at that age. And Alexander died about seven years or so before reaching that age.

    Worth reflecting he's in his role because Javid wouldn't accept the special adviser situation (which won much praise, including from me, for having the guts to walk).

    Maybe it is because I am old I see him as a young man considerably younger than my 3 children
  • Thoughts:
    1. The compare and contrast between the Clown Johnson and the Statesman Sunak is mind blowing. Just think about the accidental nature of his Chancellorship and what a job he is doing in a short space of time
    2. Up to £2,500 of wages paid by the government is sensationally good. As is the backpayment. Will twatty companies like Cineworld now rehire their workforce?
    3. They haven't fixed the business continuity loan scheme - businesses short of cash won't qualify regardless of how long it's interest free for
    4. The self employed are fucked. Claim UC and Housing Benefit as we close your business down by decree. As the party supposedly of business and entrepreneurs I cannot understand how they are so blind to this
    5. Claiming they will get the cash by selling gilts is brave. It'll be QE. Unlimited money of the kind that HYUFD was dead against yesterday and is dead for today.
    6. They'll have to review it early next week. Landlords are going to ream people, the self employed will be absolutely broken on the wheel, the press coverage will be awful.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    RobD said:

    Amazing that none of the journalists picked up on the self-employment question.

    Why are no PBers in the lobby?

    They all live in the same Westminster bubble, not in the real world.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Wondering how bad UK figures are as still not released
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    MikeL said:

    What do we think?

    5 million employees @ £1,333 per month (*) = £6.66 bn per month.

    So £40bn if 6 months, £80bn if a year

    (*) Average employee salary £20k as those affected likely to be below average salary.

    £20k/12 = £1,667 * 0.8 = £1,333

    If it's a year, then worrying about the state of the national debt will be the very least of our problems. Maintaining some kind of law and order will be way way higher.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,114

    We're going to be adding 500-800 billion to the national debt, aren't we?

    I wonder (hope) all normal rules of economics go out the window if the whole world is doing it.

    Politics goes out the window when you have an economy to save, and to stop the health service from collapsing with the obvious effects.....what we are seeing now is just the tip of the iceberg of what the state needs to do....

    In retrospect, when Gordon Brown and Darling did such a valiant effort to keep the banks afloat, in retrospect do you not think it was a bit mean making so much political capital out of Liam Byrne's private note to his successor


  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828
    So, any update on a vaccine? :p
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    No of deaths > self employed’s income
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    JM1 said:

    Foxy said:

    What do people think about collecting takeaways? Is that responsible? I quite fancy a Nandos takeaway tonight...

    Deliveroo?
    Pick it up yourself.
    ZHC youngsters handling it is not what you want, and only buy from a place where you trust the hygiene standards.
    @Foxy great news on the ventilator front - how soon might that be ready do your spies suggest? Also, do you think we are better prepared than Italy for this (given we've had some lag time to hopefully get organised)?
    It is getting grim in north London.

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1241058619786960897?s=19
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Difficult to look at Italy’s figures and believe the lack of numbers coming out of China.
  • Never mind a last night out in the pubs I hope the supermarkets can cope with the coming explosion in booze sales. They've already had one explosion, here comes another one...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    I see we had the knob end questions again...what about if I want to have a play date, what about if kids decide to have a party, what are you going to do?

    a) use your f##king brain, social distancing doesn't mean having a load of kids round

    b) what do you want Boris storm troopers kicking doors in and dragging people away to re-education centres.

    Tw@ts.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:

    Amazing that none of the journalists picked up on the self-employment question.

    Why are no PBers in the lobby?

    They all live in the same Westminster bubble, not in the real world.
    Plenty of journalists have either had substantial freelance experience or have lots of friends/contacts who are. So that's not a bubble in which self-employment is a mysterious alien thing that only the plebs do. Freelancing is only one variation of self-employment, of course, but I still find the "bubble" explanation unconvincing. And you can shift a lot of copy (well, go viral and get trending) if you can find a group who've been wronged and decry the OUTRAGE that's been inflicted upon them. So I would have thought the journos were well-incentivised to look for any lacuna in the announcement.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,279
    edited March 2020

    Thoughts:
    1. The compare and contrast between the Clown Johnson and the Statesman Sunak is mind blowing. Just think about the accidental nature of his Chancellorship and what a job he is doing in a short space of time
    2. Up to £2,500 of wages paid by the government is sensationally good. As is the backpayment. Will twatty companies like Cineworld now rehire their workforce?
    3. They haven't fixed the business continuity loan scheme - businesses short of cash won't qualify regardless of how long it's interest free for
    4. The self employed are fucked. Claim UC and Housing Benefit as we close your business down by decree. As the party supposedly of business and entrepreneurs I cannot understand how they are so blind to this
    5. Claiming they will get the cash by selling gilts is brave. It'll be QE. Unlimited money of the kind that HYUFD was dead against yesterday and is dead for today.
    6. They'll have to review it early next week. Landlords are going to ream people, the self employed will be absolutely broken on the wheel, the press coverage will be awful.

    If you are self employed you became so knowing full well you were an entrepreneur not a salaried employee and on your own not expecting to be bailed out by government at every occasion, benefits are the most you can expect. However the government is still proposing to pay 80% of the wages of businesses in trouble

    As I have stated it is also not unlimited money
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    TGOHF666 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Takeaways reduce the stress on food shops.

    Should not be closed.

    They aren't being closed
    Good - pubs and restaurants should be allowed to continue to do so.
    Johnson specifically said pubs could continue take away food.

    I would be interested whether there is any expertise on whether there is a risk from take away food ordering and delivery. Obviously some risk, but how high?
  • Unprecedented for the TUC to give such glowing praise

    Ed Conwy of Sky saying it is extraordinary package and coming from a conservative chancellor is amazing. Incredibly expensive but a big move
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,664
    Cost actually quite a bit less than I suspect most people will imagine - because people affected will skew massively towards low earners and £30k limit cuts out any big claims.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Supermarkets are hiring - they self employed could become salaried.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Unprecedented for the TUC to give such glowing praise

    Ed Conwy of Sky saying it is extraordinary package and coming from a conservative chancellor is amazing. Incredibly expensive but a big move
    It's an unprecedented event in modern times - needs unprecedented response
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    I see we had the knob end questions again...what about if I want to have a play date, what about if kids decide to have a party, what are you going to do?

    a) use your f##king brain, social distancing doesn't mean having a load of kids round

    b) what do you want Boris storm troopers kicking doors in and dragging people away to re-education centres.

    Tw@ts.

    That was Tom ND - black belt cretin.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    As of 9am on 20 March 2020, 66,976 people have been tested in the UK, of which 62,993 were confirmed negative and 3,983 were confirmed positive.

    As of 1pm, 177 patients in the UK who tested positive for coronavirus (COVID-19) have died.
  • DAlexanderDAlexander Posts: 815
    HYUFD said:

    Thoughts:
    1. The compare and contrast between the Clown Johnson and the Statesman Sunak is mind blowing. Just think about the accidental nature of his Chancellorship and what a job he is doing in a short space of time
    2. Up to £2,500 of wages paid by the government is sensationally good. As is the backpayment. Will twatty companies like Cineworld now rehire their workforce?
    3. They haven't fixed the business continuity loan scheme - businesses short of cash won't qualify regardless of how long it's interest free for
    4. The self employed are fucked. Claim UC and Housing Benefit as we close your business down by decree. As the party supposedly of business and entrepreneurs I cannot understand how they are so blind to this
    5. Claiming they will get the cash by selling gilts is brave. It'll be QE. Unlimited money of the kind that HYUFD was dead against yesterday and is dead for today.
    6. They'll have to review it early next week. Landlords are going to ream people, the self employed will be absolutely broken on the wheel, the press coverage will be awful.

    If you are self employed you became so knowing full well you were an entrepreneur not a salaried employee and on your own not expecting to be bailed out by government at every occasion, benefits are the most you can expecf.

    As I have stated it is also not unlimited money
    I would have thought that same logic might apply to people who set up a business, but they are getting bailed out.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    Amazing times we live in, the TUC are backing a Tory majority government.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    edited March 2020
    UK +714, but from only about 2.3k tests. Both figures probably affected by yesterday's figures being 1pm, today 9am (averaging 5.7k tests/day over the last four days).
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    TGOHF666 said:
    714 new cases vs 643 & 676 in preceding days so still bad, but not growing at same rate.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    I make it

    2355 tests, of which 714 positive

    now, 2355 is more than were standard for where we were a week ago.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    tyson said:

    We're going to be adding 500-800 billion to the national debt, aren't we?

    I wonder (hope) all normal rules of economics go out the window if the whole world is doing it.

    Politics goes out the window when you have an economy to save, and to stop the health service from collapsing with the obvious effects.....what we are seeing now is just the tip of the iceberg of what the state needs to do....

    In retrospect, when Gordon Brown and Darling did such a valiant effort to keep the banks afloat, in retrospect do you not think it was a bit mean making so much political capital out of Liam Byrne's private note to his successor


    What the previous administration were responsible for is running up large deficits during the good times.

    That is the criticism.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,871

    b) what do you want Boris storm troopers kicking doors in and dragging people away to re-education centres.

    I'm rapidly coming round to the view that violence might be the answer.
  • McDonnell just plain sour on Sky.

    Not enough not quick enough

    Maybe he needs to speak to the TUC
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401

    Unprecedented for the TUC to give such glowing praise

    Ed Conwy of Sky saying it is extraordinary package and coming from a conservative chancellor is amazing. Incredibly expensive but a big move
    That shows how much shit we are in. But yes, impressive. Just had a text from a business owning family member: it is enough in theory but need detail on timing and also how long before HMRC can process (when many of their staff are off).

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    TGOHF666 said:

    Supermarkets are hiring - they self employed could become salaried.

    Anyone laid off in the gig industry should immediately volunteer to be a key worker in my view.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    edited March 2020
    glw said:

    b) what do you want Boris storm troopers kicking doors in and dragging people away to re-education centres.

    I'm rapidly coming round to the view that violence might be the answer.
    To the journalists wasting air with ridiculous stupid questions at this crucial time?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    RobD said:

    So, any update on a vaccine? :p

    Not before at least nearly most of 18 months, or something.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,871
    HYUFD said:

    If you are self employed you became so knowing full well you were an entrepreneur not a salaried employee and on your own not expecting to be bailed out by government at every occasion, benefits are the most you can expect. However the government is still proposing to pay 80% of the wages of businesses in trouble

    As I have stated it is also not unlimited money

    The government is saying "don't work" to millions of self employed people, they need to do a lot more than they are to support those people.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828
    No pub for at least four weeks.

    Just let that sink in. :(
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401

    McDonnell just plain sour on Sky.

    Not enough not quick enough

    Maybe he needs to speak to the TUC

    Or just stand down now, rather than hang around until April.

    Be gone Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Milne. You've had your moment. Now make way for people who can actually run an opposition.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    You can read that a number of ways given they are currently only testing those under medical care
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123

    I make it

    2355 tests, of which 714 positive

    now, 2355 is more than were standard for where we were a week ago.

    Easily the highest percentage of tests coming back positive - a reflection of the change of policy, I suspect.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1241059933438836736 McDonnell concerned about self employed, some how I doubt.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    That will be Scottish Independence dead for 20 years.

    The debt mountain makes it so.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828
    TGOHF666 said:

    That will be Scottish Independence dead for 20 years.

    The debt mountain makes it so.

    That won't stop the SNP.
  • SunnyJimSunnyJim Posts: 1,106
    Labour striking a very off-note with petty criticism.

    They should have perhaps taken their lead from the unions.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    Wouldn't surprise me if national debt is at 120-130% of GDP once this is all over, and possible more if the economy shrinks.

    That isn't good.
  • HYUFD said:

    As I have stated it is also not unlimited money

    "Sunak said there would be no limit on the funding available to pay people’s wages."

    I have to ask sir - given your repeated denial of the evidence of your eyes and ears are you also a Flat Earther?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828

    Wouldn't surprise me if national debt is at 120-130% of GDP once this is all over, and possible more if the economy shrinks.

    That isn't good.

    It'll be the new normal.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,539
    What about those on zero hours contracts? What does the Government fund 80% of?
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,450

    Wouldn't surprise me if national debt is at 120-130% of GDP once this is all over, and possible more if the economy shrinks.

    That isn't good.

    Are you counting the loans?
  • SunnyJimSunnyJim Posts: 1,106
    RobD said:


    I thought there would be less risk for delivery than for collection. If you do collection, you are going to have dozens of people touching the counters/work surfaces. If it's delivery, there is much reduced risk of transmission. Unless you kiss your delivery driver, of course.

    I'm no expert but going off what an acquaintance in the catering business said it is exactly the opposite.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,114

    Wouldn't surprise me if national debt is at 120-130% of GDP once this is all over, and possible more if the economy shrinks.

    That isn't good.

    150% plus plus

    It's better than the alternative which is the economy collapses
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited March 2020
    tlg86 said:

    I make it

    2355 tests, of which 714 positive

    now, 2355 is more than were standard for where we were a week ago.

    Easily the highest percentage of tests coming back positive - a reflection of the change of policy, I suspect.
    Given the aim of the exercise is to keep the pressure off ICUs I think the key metric is fatalities and number in intensive care.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,450
    DougSeal said:

    You can read that a number of ways given they are currently only testing those under medical care
    Is there a point about 1pm v 9am readouts?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,279

    HYUFD said:

    As I have stated it is also not unlimited money

    "Sunak said there would be no limit on the funding available to pay people’s wages."

    I have to ask sir - given your repeated denial of the evidence of your eyes and ears are you also a Flat Earther?
    80% of wages is not 100% of wages
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,664
    I wonder what the check will be if a company claims 80% of a person's salary and that person carries on working at home?

    How on earth will anyone know if person is still working?

    No way round this but it'll be a goldmine for some companies!
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    SunnyJim said:

    Labour striking a very off-note with petty criticism.

    They should have perhaps taken their lead from the unions.

    Sour was the apposite word.
  • DAlexanderDAlexander Posts: 815
    Can any business can get the government to pay 80% of staff costs if they say they have nothing to do for the next few months?

    How will the government know if this is genuine or not?
  • Considering that he only got the job when Javid decided he wanted the the independence from Downing Street to make his mark, Sunak has been an absolute revelation.

    Ok so we're comparing him to clown like Johnson and smirking monsters like Patel, but he genuinely comes across as someone serious, measured and calm. All the skills you need in a crisis. Wherever did the Tories find him?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,897
    The UK debt chart from 1910 to 1950 is instructive, we're probably ok running the debt up to a bit over 200%. This is basically a war situation right now - the 2008 GFC for all it's bombast was just the big global banks fucking up over mortgages so wartime debt comparisons weren't appropriate. They are now.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    edited March 2020

    Wouldn't surprise me if national debt is at 120-130% of GDP once this is all over, and possible more if the economy shrinks.

    That isn't good.

    I expect that this will lead to a global round of mutual debt forgiveness for assets held by central banks. Ultimately if this requires £200bn in additional borrowing it's all owned by the Bank. Same as the $1tn package in the US, the Fed will surely fire up the printing press, the ECB is doing €750bn as a start.

    Is it really debt if there is no net interest payable?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,576
    glw said:

    b) what do you want Boris storm troopers kicking doors in and dragging people away to re-education centres.

    I'm rapidly coming round to the view that violence might be the answer.
    Be careful what you wish for. Earlier today the bus I was on was stationary for a good five minutes while two blokes yelled blood-curdling threats at each other, and half a dozen passengers tried to keep them apart. It kicked off because they got too close to each other boarding the bus, in light of corona virus advice.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    What about those on zero hours contracts? What does the Government fund 80% of?

    I don’t know but if it’s calculated like holiday pay it will be based on the average of a previous number of weeks.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    tyson said:

    Wouldn't surprise me if national debt is at 120-130% of GDP once this is all over, and possible more if the economy shrinks.

    That isn't good.

    150% plus plus

    It's better than the alternative which is the economy collapses
    Problems for another day.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Some good appears to have come out over that dispute over SPADs. https://twitter.com/RossFootball/status/1241057709606285312
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828
    SunnyJim said:

    RobD said:


    I thought there would be less risk for delivery than for collection. If you do collection, you are going to have dozens of people touching the counters/work surfaces. If it's delivery, there is much reduced risk of transmission. Unless you kiss your delivery driver, of course.

    I'm no expert but going off what an acquaintance in the catering business said it is exactly the opposite.
    Interesting. I'm just making naive assumptions, but that is quite surprising. If someone at the establishment has it, collection or delivery doesn't matter, but I can't see how transmission occurs between patrons via delivery.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,153
    I bet Jezza can't believe he's missed out on this opportunity for massive state spending and government intervention.

    Would have been manna from heaven if only it hadn't been for the pesky voters...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828
    MikeL said:

    I wonder what the check will be if a company claims 80% of a person's salary and that person carries on working at home?

    How on earth will anyone know if person is still working?

    No way round this but it'll be a goldmine for some companies!

    Think of it as a stimulus package. ;)
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    You can read that a number of ways given they are currently only testing those under medical care
    Is there a point about 1pm v 9am readouts?
    Looking back, unless I’m mistaken, the test results are always those at 9 that morning. Don’t know about the fatalities.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    MikeL said:

    I wonder what the check will be if a company claims 80% of a person's salary and that person carries on working at home?

    How on earth will anyone know if person is still working?

    No way round this but it'll be a goldmine for some companies!

    Wouldn't the employee have to take a pay cut to £2k per month though? They might not be willing to do that, and most jobs that can be done from home will be carry a higher salary than that.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    GIN1138 said:

    I bet Jezza can't believe he's missed out on this opportunity for massive state spending and government intervention.

    Would have been manna from heaven if only it hadn't been for the pesky voters...

    The genius of democracy. Truly we have dodged a bullet by not having Corbyn and Milne and co in charge of this national crisis.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,897
    Those senators should probably be flayed alive. Could be cathartic for the USA in these darkened times.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak also increases UC standard allowance by £1000 a year as he says he still cannot promise no job losses, self employed people to access UC at rate of SSP for employees.

    Self assessment patments deferred to January 2021

    Rishi is demonstrating the conservative party has compassion and is prepared to support everyone irrespective of costs through this crisis

    And contrary to some of your heartless posts yesterday
    At times like this, Big_G, perhaps better to celebrate HYUFD’s ability to execute philosophical pirouettes every time his government adopts policies he was previously inveighing against. He is a true Tory trimmer, which is a definite part of the Tories’s historical makeup.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,576
    dr_spyn said:

    Some good appears to have come out over that dispute over SPADs. https://twitter.com/RossFootball/status/1241057709606285312

    Because The Saj would not have done what exactly?
  • DAlexanderDAlexander Posts: 815
    MaxPB said:

    MikeL said:

    I wonder what the check will be if a company claims 80% of a person's salary and that person carries on working at home?

    How on earth will anyone know if person is still working?

    No way round this but it'll be a goldmine for some companies!

    Wouldn't the employee have to take a pay cut to £2k per month though? They might not be willing to do that, and most jobs that can be done from home will be carry a higher salary than that.
    As I understand it the company will continue to pay the full salary and the government will pay up to £2000 of it if it is above £2500.

    The idea has so much potential for abuse.
This discussion has been closed.