Is that it??? If you are self employed or you rent you truly are screwed.
Next set of "we've had a rethink" measures next Monday?
The people who are paying rent should be getting money through the scheme just announced.
What does a self employed person get, bottom line? Their income is getting hit just as hard as an employee.
All I heard announced was the deferral of the income tax. They are clearly lacking in that area, so maybe some additional movement in that area once a scheme has been worked out. I expect it is quite tricky, with a lot of edge cases.
And VAT deferrals
Plus UC equivalent to statutory sick pay
That's a legitimate fuck you to the self employed. What would be wrong with taking an average of their monthly income over the last 12 months and doing up to 80% with the same £2.5k limit. No need for benefits or universal credit or waiting times etc...
This is going to put a lot of people on the breadline as rent comes due and the money isn't in the bank. It needs to be addressed ASAP.
Rishi said that employment relief would come via PAYE, which is an established system.
I do wonder if there is more that can be done for the self-employed, but the scheme you are suggested would mean the creation of a whole new system. It won't be able to assist with this month's rent.
Not really, the government have people's tax returns and their bank details, it wouldn't be very difficult.
We're going to have people on minimum wage working in supermarkets, putting their lives at risk and paying tax to go to people on much higher wages to sit at home doing nothing.
It's absurd.
I knew it wouldn't be long before that point was made on here.
We're going to have people on minimum wage working in supermarkets, putting their lives at risk and paying tax to go to people on much higher wages to sit at home doing nothing.
It's absurd.
This is a huge package which should be praised for its boldness.
Yes, if you wanted to be inappropriately partisan you could search out examples of people who win a little more than others.
I don't understand why self employed people don't get the same protection as employed people. Give them 80% of their average monthly income from the previous financial year up to £2.5k, expect this to get messy over the weekend. Statutory sick pay is a joke and insult to millions of self employed people who are losing clients and business as much as people are being put out of work.
The self employed have a different tax and benefits regime to the employed and are deemed to take on more risk. While this is an unprecedented situation, maybe it is still felt that a 3-month furlough in trade is par for the course and you should be prepared to accept it.
Being self-employed, I have always budgeted carefully and kept a few years' worth of cash in the bank (or in relatively liquid sources at any rate) just in case work went pear-shaped or (more likely in my case) poor health stopped me working for 12 months or more. I was in pretty good shape even to take on this kind of massive disruption. But then my work has always been both very seasonal and with substantial year-to-year variability. My financial preparations reflected my need to manage this kind of risk.
There are self-employed people whose risk profile is very different to mine though, and who manage a steady stream of work. It's a very diverse sector of the economy and not sure how wise it is to lump us all together, which means any response for our needs is very hard to tailor. Sometimes it makes sense to treat us more like an unincorporated business and sometimes more sense to treat us like a worker.
We're going to have people on minimum wage working in supermarkets, putting their lives at risk and paying tax to go to people on much higher wages to sit at home doing nothing.
It's absurd.
Seriously - this is unprecedented and there will be no perfect responses
Is that it??? If you are self employed or you rent you truly are screwed.
Next set of "we've had a rethink" measures next Monday?
The people who are paying rent should be getting money through the scheme just announced.
What does a self employed person get, bottom line? Their income is getting hit just as hard as an employee.
All I heard announced was the deferral of the income tax. They are clearly lacking in that area, so maybe some additional movement in that area once a scheme has been worked out. I expect it is quite tricky, with a lot of edge cases.
And VAT deferrals
Plus UC equivalent to statutory sick pay
That's a legitimate fuck you to the self employed. What would be wrong with taking an average of their monthly income over the last 12 months and doing up to 80% with the same £2.5k limit. No need for benefits or universal credit or waiting times etc...
This is going to put a lot of people on the breadline as rent comes due and the money isn't in the bank. It needs to be addressed ASAP.
Rishi said that employment relief would come via PAYE, which is an established system.
I do wonder if there is more that can be done for the self-employed, but the scheme you are suggested would mean the creation of a whole new system. It won't be able to assist with this month's rent.
Not really, the government have people's tax returns and their bank details, it wouldn't be very difficult.
For the 2018-2019 tax year.
I do also note that plenty of self-employed people are in a rather different boat to the freelancer, whom I think you have in mind.
Any who employ their own staff or run a retail business will benefit from the government's other measures.
Mr. NorthWales, Pitt had been PM for a decade and a half at that age. And Alexander died about seven years or so before reaching that age.
Worth reflecting he's in his role because Javid wouldn't accept the special adviser situation (which won much praise, including from me, for having the guts to walk).
If there are no significant caveats that have not been included in the announcement then yes, this should prevent mass unemployment in the employed sector for a 3-4 month lockdown. They need to do more for self employed, but well done on the employed.
We're going to have people on minimum wage working in supermarkets, putting their lives at risk and paying tax to go to people on much higher wages to sit at home doing nothing.
It's absurd.
Lucky the Conservatives have raised the tax allowances regularly over the last few years.
Is that it??? If you are self employed or you rent you truly are screwed.
Next set of "we've had a rethink" measures next Monday?
The people who are paying rent should be getting money through the scheme just announced.
What does a self employed person get, bottom line? Their income is getting hit just as hard as an employee.
All I heard announced was the deferral of the income tax. They are clearly lacking in that area, so maybe some additional movement in that area once a scheme has been worked out. I expect it is quite tricky, with a lot of edge cases.
And VAT deferrals
Plus UC equivalent to statutory sick pay
That's a legitimate fuck you to the self employed. What would be wrong with taking an average of their monthly income over the last 12 months and doing up to 80% with the same £2.5k limit. No need for benefits or universal credit or waiting times etc...
This is going to put a lot of people on the breadline as rent comes due and the money isn't in the bank. It needs to be addressed ASAP.
Rishi said that employment relief would come via PAYE, which is an established system.
I do wonder if there is more that can be done for the self-employed, but the scheme you are suggested would mean the creation of a whole new system. It won't be able to assist with this month's rent.
Not really, the government have people's tax returns and their bank details, it wouldn't be very difficult.
For the 2018-2019 tax year.
I do also note that plenty of self-employed people are in a rather different boat to the freelancer, whom I think you have in mind.
Any who employ their own staff or run a retail business will benefit from the government's other measures.
I'm thinking more of tradespeople and sub-contractors. They won't physically be able to work as sites are closed and right now they have a huge loss of income but no support.
We're going to have people on minimum wage working in supermarkets, putting their lives at risk and paying tax to go to people on much higher wages to sit at home doing nothing.
It's absurd.
What's your suggestion?
Basic income for everyone. Fair, helps everyone equally and doesn't create winners and losers on arbitrary measurements.
We're going to have people on minimum wage working in supermarkets, putting their lives at risk and paying tax to go to people on much higher wages to sit at home doing nothing.
It's absurd.
Lucky the Conservatives have raised the tax allowances regularly over the last few years.
Mr. NorthWales, Pitt had been PM for a decade and a half at that age. And Alexander died about seven years or so before reaching that age.
Worth reflecting he's in his role because Javid wouldn't accept the special adviser situation (which won much praise, including from me, for having the guts to walk).
Maybe it is because I am old I see him as a young man considerably younger than my 3 children
Thoughts: 1. The compare and contrast between the Clown Johnson and the Statesman Sunak is mind blowing. Just think about the accidental nature of his Chancellorship and what a job he is doing in a short space of time 2. Up to £2,500 of wages paid by the government is sensationally good. As is the backpayment. Will twatty companies like Cineworld now rehire their workforce? 3. They haven't fixed the business continuity loan scheme - businesses short of cash won't qualify regardless of how long it's interest free for 4. The self employed are fucked. Claim UC and Housing Benefit as we close your business down by decree. As the party supposedly of business and entrepreneurs I cannot understand how they are so blind to this 5. Claiming they will get the cash by selling gilts is brave. It'll be QE. Unlimited money of the kind that HYUFD was dead against yesterday and is dead for today. 6. They'll have to review it early next week. Landlords are going to ream people, the self employed will be absolutely broken on the wheel, the press coverage will be awful.
5 million employees @ £1,333 per month (*) = £6.66 bn per month.
So £40bn if 6 months, £80bn if a year
(*) Average employee salary £20k as those affected likely to be below average salary.
£20k/12 = £1,667 * 0.8 = £1,333
If it's a year, then worrying about the state of the national debt will be the very least of our problems. Maintaining some kind of law and order will be way way higher.
We're going to be adding 500-800 billion to the national debt, aren't we?
I wonder (hope) all normal rules of economics go out the window if the whole world is doing it.
Politics goes out the window when you have an economy to save, and to stop the health service from collapsing with the obvious effects.....what we are seeing now is just the tip of the iceberg of what the state needs to do....
In retrospect, when Gordon Brown and Darling did such a valiant effort to keep the banks afloat, in retrospect do you not think it was a bit mean making so much political capital out of Liam Byrne's private note to his successor
What do people think about collecting takeaways? Is that responsible? I quite fancy a Nandos takeaway tonight...
Deliveroo?
Pick it up yourself. ZHC youngsters handling it is not what you want, and only buy from a place where you trust the hygiene standards.
@Foxy great news on the ventilator front - how soon might that be ready do your spies suggest? Also, do you think we are better prepared than Italy for this (given we've had some lag time to hopefully get organised)?
Never mind a last night out in the pubs I hope the supermarkets can cope with the coming explosion in booze sales. They've already had one explosion, here comes another one...
I see we had the knob end questions again...what about if I want to have a play date, what about if kids decide to have a party, what are you going to do?
a) use your f##king brain, social distancing doesn't mean having a load of kids round
b) what do you want Boris storm troopers kicking doors in and dragging people away to re-education centres.
Amazing that none of the journalists picked up on the self-employment question.
Why are no PBers in the lobby?
They all live in the same Westminster bubble, not in the real world.
Plenty of journalists have either had substantial freelance experience or have lots of friends/contacts who are. So that's not a bubble in which self-employment is a mysterious alien thing that only the plebs do. Freelancing is only one variation of self-employment, of course, but I still find the "bubble" explanation unconvincing. And you can shift a lot of copy (well, go viral and get trending) if you can find a group who've been wronged and decry the OUTRAGE that's been inflicted upon them. So I would have thought the journos were well-incentivised to look for any lacuna in the announcement.
Thoughts: 1. The compare and contrast between the Clown Johnson and the Statesman Sunak is mind blowing. Just think about the accidental nature of his Chancellorship and what a job he is doing in a short space of time 2. Up to £2,500 of wages paid by the government is sensationally good. As is the backpayment. Will twatty companies like Cineworld now rehire their workforce? 3. They haven't fixed the business continuity loan scheme - businesses short of cash won't qualify regardless of how long it's interest free for 4. The self employed are fucked. Claim UC and Housing Benefit as we close your business down by decree. As the party supposedly of business and entrepreneurs I cannot understand how they are so blind to this 5. Claiming they will get the cash by selling gilts is brave. It'll be QE. Unlimited money of the kind that HYUFD was dead against yesterday and is dead for today. 6. They'll have to review it early next week. Landlords are going to ream people, the self employed will be absolutely broken on the wheel, the press coverage will be awful.
If you are self employed you became so knowing full well you were an entrepreneur not a salaried employee and on your own not expecting to be bailed out by government at every occasion, benefits are the most you can expect. However the government is still proposing to pay 80% of the wages of businesses in trouble
Good - pubs and restaurants should be allowed to continue to do so.
Johnson specifically said pubs could continue take away food.
I would be interested whether there is any expertise on whether there is a risk from take away food ordering and delivery. Obviously some risk, but how high?
Cost actually quite a bit less than I suspect most people will imagine - because people affected will skew massively towards low earners and £30k limit cuts out any big claims.
I see we had the knob end questions again...what about if I want to have a play date, what about if kids decide to have a party, what are you going to do?
a) use your f##king brain, social distancing doesn't mean having a load of kids round
b) what do you want Boris storm troopers kicking doors in and dragging people away to re-education centres.
Thoughts: 1. The compare and contrast between the Clown Johnson and the Statesman Sunak is mind blowing. Just think about the accidental nature of his Chancellorship and what a job he is doing in a short space of time 2. Up to £2,500 of wages paid by the government is sensationally good. As is the backpayment. Will twatty companies like Cineworld now rehire their workforce? 3. They haven't fixed the business continuity loan scheme - businesses short of cash won't qualify regardless of how long it's interest free for 4. The self employed are fucked. Claim UC and Housing Benefit as we close your business down by decree. As the party supposedly of business and entrepreneurs I cannot understand how they are so blind to this 5. Claiming they will get the cash by selling gilts is brave. It'll be QE. Unlimited money of the kind that HYUFD was dead against yesterday and is dead for today. 6. They'll have to review it early next week. Landlords are going to ream people, the self employed will be absolutely broken on the wheel, the press coverage will be awful.
If you are self employed you became so knowing full well you were an entrepreneur not a salaried employee and on your own not expecting to be bailed out by government at every occasion, benefits are the most you can expecf.
As I have stated it is also not unlimited money
I would have thought that same logic might apply to people who set up a business, but they are getting bailed out.
UK +714, but from only about 2.3k tests. Both figures probably affected by yesterday's figures being 1pm, today 9am (averaging 5.7k tests/day over the last four days).
We're going to be adding 500-800 billion to the national debt, aren't we?
I wonder (hope) all normal rules of economics go out the window if the whole world is doing it.
Politics goes out the window when you have an economy to save, and to stop the health service from collapsing with the obvious effects.....what we are seeing now is just the tip of the iceberg of what the state needs to do....
In retrospect, when Gordon Brown and Darling did such a valiant effort to keep the banks afloat, in retrospect do you not think it was a bit mean making so much political capital out of Liam Byrne's private note to his successor
What the previous administration were responsible for is running up large deficits during the good times.
Unprecedented for the TUC to give such glowing praise
Ed Conwy of Sky saying it is extraordinary package and coming from a conservative chancellor is amazing. Incredibly expensive but a big move
That shows how much shit we are in. But yes, impressive. Just had a text from a business owning family member: it is enough in theory but need detail on timing and also how long before HMRC can process (when many of their staff are off).
If you are self employed you became so knowing full well you were an entrepreneur not a salaried employee and on your own not expecting to be bailed out by government at every occasion, benefits are the most you can expect. However the government is still proposing to pay 80% of the wages of businesses in trouble
As I have stated it is also not unlimited money
The government is saying "don't work" to millions of self employed people, they need to do a lot more than they are to support those people.
I thought there would be less risk for delivery than for collection. If you do collection, you are going to have dozens of people touching the counters/work surfaces. If it's delivery, there is much reduced risk of transmission. Unless you kiss your delivery driver, of course.
I'm no expert but going off what an acquaintance in the catering business said it is exactly the opposite.
Considering that he only got the job when Javid decided he wanted the the independence from Downing Street to make his mark, Sunak has been an absolute revelation.
Ok so we're comparing him to clown like Johnson and smirking monsters like Patel, but he genuinely comes across as someone serious, measured and calm. All the skills you need in a crisis. Wherever did the Tories find him?
The UK debt chart from 1910 to 1950 is instructive, we're probably ok running the debt up to a bit over 200%. This is basically a war situation right now - the 2008 GFC for all it's bombast was just the big global banks fucking up over mortgages so wartime debt comparisons weren't appropriate. They are now.
Wouldn't surprise me if national debt is at 120-130% of GDP once this is all over, and possible more if the economy shrinks.
That isn't good.
I expect that this will lead to a global round of mutual debt forgiveness for assets held by central banks. Ultimately if this requires £200bn in additional borrowing it's all owned by the Bank. Same as the $1tn package in the US, the Fed will surely fire up the printing press, the ECB is doing €750bn as a start.
Is it really debt if there is no net interest payable?
b) what do you want Boris storm troopers kicking doors in and dragging people away to re-education centres.
I'm rapidly coming round to the view that violence might be the answer.
Be careful what you wish for. Earlier today the bus I was on was stationary for a good five minutes while two blokes yelled blood-curdling threats at each other, and half a dozen passengers tried to keep them apart. It kicked off because they got too close to each other boarding the bus, in light of corona virus advice.
I thought there would be less risk for delivery than for collection. If you do collection, you are going to have dozens of people touching the counters/work surfaces. If it's delivery, there is much reduced risk of transmission. Unless you kiss your delivery driver, of course.
I'm no expert but going off what an acquaintance in the catering business said it is exactly the opposite.
Interesting. I'm just making naive assumptions, but that is quite surprising. If someone at the establishment has it, collection or delivery doesn't matter, but I can't see how transmission occurs between patrons via delivery.
I wonder what the check will be if a company claims 80% of a person's salary and that person carries on working at home?
How on earth will anyone know if person is still working?
No way round this but it'll be a goldmine for some companies!
Wouldn't the employee have to take a pay cut to £2k per month though? They might not be willing to do that, and most jobs that can be done from home will be carry a higher salary than that.
Sunak also increases UC standard allowance by £1000 a year as he says he still cannot promise no job losses, self employed people to access UC at rate of SSP for employees.
Self assessment patments deferred to January 2021
Rishi is demonstrating the conservative party has compassion and is prepared to support everyone irrespective of costs through this crisis
And contrary to some of your heartless posts yesterday
At times like this, Big_G, perhaps better to celebrate HYUFD’s ability to execute philosophical pirouettes every time his government adopts policies he was previously inveighing against. He is a true Tory trimmer, which is a definite part of the Tories’s historical makeup.
I wonder what the check will be if a company claims 80% of a person's salary and that person carries on working at home?
How on earth will anyone know if person is still working?
No way round this but it'll be a goldmine for some companies!
Wouldn't the employee have to take a pay cut to £2k per month though? They might not be willing to do that, and most jobs that can be done from home will be carry a higher salary than that.
As I understand it the company will continue to pay the full salary and the government will pay up to £2000 of it if it is above £2500.
Comments
Will Jezza be brave enough to make it?
Yes, if you wanted to be inappropriately partisan you could search out examples of people who win a little more than others.
It would be pretty churlish though.
There are self-employed people whose risk profile is very different to mine though, and who manage a steady stream of work. It's a very diverse sector of the economy and not sure how wise it is to lump us all together, which means any response for our needs is very hard to tailor. Sometimes it makes sense to treat us more like an unincorporated business and sometimes more sense to treat us like a worker.
I do also note that plenty of self-employed people are in a rather different boat to the freelancer, whom I think you have in mind.
Any who employ their own staff or run a retail business will benefit from the government's other measures.
Worth reflecting he's in his role because Javid wouldn't accept the special adviser situation (which won much praise, including from me, for having the guts to walk).
Opposed by Labour of course.
5 million employees @ £1,333 per month (*) = £6.66 bn per month.
So £40bn if 6 months, £80bn if a year
(*) Average employee salary £20k as those affected likely to be below average salary.
£20k/12 = £1,667 * 0.8 = £1,333
Why are no PBers in the lobby?
1. The compare and contrast between the Clown Johnson and the Statesman Sunak is mind blowing. Just think about the accidental nature of his Chancellorship and what a job he is doing in a short space of time
2. Up to £2,500 of wages paid by the government is sensationally good. As is the backpayment. Will twatty companies like Cineworld now rehire their workforce?
3. They haven't fixed the business continuity loan scheme - businesses short of cash won't qualify regardless of how long it's interest free for
4. The self employed are fucked. Claim UC and Housing Benefit as we close your business down by decree. As the party supposedly of business and entrepreneurs I cannot understand how they are so blind to this
5. Claiming they will get the cash by selling gilts is brave. It'll be QE. Unlimited money of the kind that HYUFD was dead against yesterday and is dead for today.
6. They'll have to review it early next week. Landlords are going to ream people, the self employed will be absolutely broken on the wheel, the press coverage will be awful.
In retrospect, when Gordon Brown and Darling did such a valiant effort to keep the banks afloat, in retrospect do you not think it was a bit mean making so much political capital out of Liam Byrne's private note to his successor
https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1241058619786960897?s=19
a) use your f##king brain, social distancing doesn't mean having a load of kids round
b) what do you want Boris storm troopers kicking doors in and dragging people away to re-education centres.
Tw@ts.
As I have stated it is also not unlimited money
I would be interested whether there is any expertise on whether there is a risk from take away food ordering and delivery. Obviously some risk, but how high?
Ed Conwy of Sky saying it is extraordinary package and coming from a conservative chancellor is amazing. Incredibly expensive but a big move
As of 1pm, 177 patients in the UK who tested positive for coronavirus (COVID-19) have died.
2355 tests, of which 714 positive
now, 2355 is more than were standard for where we were a week ago.
That is the criticism.
Not enough not quick enough
Maybe he needs to speak to the TUC
Just let that sink in.
Be gone Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Milne. You've had your moment. Now make way for people who can actually run an opposition.
The debt mountain makes it so.
They should have perhaps taken their lead from the unions.
That isn't good.
I have to ask sir - given your repeated denial of the evidence of your eyes and ears are you also a Flat Earther?
It's better than the alternative which is the economy collapses
How on earth will anyone know if person is still working?
No way round this but it'll be a goldmine for some companies!
How will the government know if this is genuine or not?
Ok so we're comparing him to clown like Johnson and smirking monsters like Patel, but he genuinely comes across as someone serious, measured and calm. All the skills you need in a crisis. Wherever did the Tories find him?
Is it really debt if there is no net interest payable?
Would have been manna from heaven if only it hadn't been for the pesky voters...
The idea has so much potential for abuse.