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  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited March 2020

    Anecdotes.

    No bog roll, dried pasta, soap or fresh milk in Tesco but everything else seemed available.

    Bog roll, soap and fresh milk available in the nearby village shop - didn't look for dried pasta.

    Two unconnected people off at work with symptoms from under a hundred - this is way more widespread than the official figures suggest.

    I never knew people ate so much pasta. And with what?

    Tinned mackeral is what you want. There are stacks of it in every supermarket (you can see why British fish has to be exported), in all manner of sauces. All you need is a biscuit and a fork. No preparation, better nutrition than plain pasta. The fish oil might even help your body fight off the plague. And it keeps for ever.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    edited March 2020
    IanB2 said:

    Anecdotes.

    No bog roll, dried pasta, soap or fresh milk in Tesco but everything else seemed available.

    Bog roll, soap and fresh milk available in the nearby village shop - didn't look for dried pasta.

    Two unconnected people off at work with symptoms from under a hundred - this is way more widespread than the official figures suggest.

    I never knew people ate so much pasta. And with what?

    Tinned mackeral is what you want. There are stacks of it in every supermarket (you can see why British fish has to be exported), in all manner of sauces. All you need is a biscuit and a fork. No preparation, better nutrition than plain pasta. The fish oil might even help your body fight off the plague.
    Perhaps ironically, given the wartime association, the spam hadn’t been touched in our tesco either.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119

    IanB2 said:

    Anecdotes.

    No bog roll, dried pasta, soap or fresh milk in Tesco but everything else seemed available.

    Bog roll, soap and fresh milk available in the nearby village shop - didn't look for dried pasta.

    Two unconnected people off at work with symptoms from under a hundred - this is way more widespread than the official figures suggest.

    I never knew people ate so much pasta. And with what?

    Tinned mackeral is what you want. There are stacks of it in every supermarket (you can see why British fish has to be exported), in all manner of sauces. All you need is a biscuit and a fork. No preparation, better nutrition than plain pasta. The fish oil might even help your body fight off the plague.
    Perhaps ironically, give the wartime association, the spam hadn’t been touched in our tesco either.
    More evidence that our soft society isn't ready for an extended war :-)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    I’m a Doctor in Britain. We’re Heading Into the Abyss.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/opinion/coronavirus-uk-nhs.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

    (Not one for the faint hearted to read).

    Jessica Potter (@DrJessPotter) is a respiratory specialist doctor working in London and a member of EveryDoctor, an organization that campaigns for the working rights of doctors.

    It was a bit of an anti-Tory rant to be honest
    You might have to get used to that for a bit.
    Have you read it? It was "under-funded, under-paid, under-appreciated" staff. Could have been written any time, any place. Just her standard rant with a bit of coronavirus added on.

    I'm really irritated with people trying to make political points at this stage
    It was too political. But we as a society need to face up to some brutal choices about our decisions. This pandemic will force that upon us.

    We can't offer universal health care on our current (old) tax take. It's impossible. We have a health care system that is hollowed out as a consequence. Public health in particular has been hollowed out.

    But but but it gets a budget increase each year. Yes not enough, not enough by a long long way. This message will be brutally clear over the next few weeks and months. Get used to it.


    Surely it was published simply to help Americans maintain their illusions that other countries have it worse?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    I’m a Doctor in Britain. We’re Heading Into the Abyss.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/opinion/coronavirus-uk-nhs.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

    (Not one for the faint hearted to read).

    Jessica Potter (@DrJessPotter) is a respiratory specialist doctor working in London and a member of EveryDoctor, an organization that campaigns for the working rights of doctors.

    It was a bit of an anti-Tory rant to be honest
    You might have to get used to that for a bit.
    Have you read it? It was "under-funded, under-paid, under-appreciated" staff. Could have been written any time, any place. Just her standard rant with a bit of coronavirus added on.

    I'm really irritated with people trying to make political points at this stage
    It was too political. But we as a society need to face up to some brutal choices about our decisions. This pandemic will force that upon us.

    We can't offer universal health care on our current (old) tax take. It's impossible. We have a health care system that is hollowed out as a consequence. Public health in particular has been hollowed out.

    But but but it gets a budget increase each year. Yes not enough, not enough by a long long way. This message will be brutally clear over the next few weeks and months. Get used to it.


    Oh, I agree with that. We need to decide what we want as a society and then decide how we are going to pay for it. At the moment we look at the money first and then allocate it.

    But that's a very different discussion to that article.
  • GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123
    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    I’m a Doctor in Britain. We’re Heading Into the Abyss.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/opinion/coronavirus-uk-nhs.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

    (Not one for the faint hearted to read).

    Jessica Potter (@DrJessPotter) is a respiratory specialist doctor working in London and a member of EveryDoctor, an organization that campaigns for the working rights of doctors.

    It was a bit of an anti-Tory rant to be honest
    You might have to get used to that for a bit.
    Have you read it? It was "under-funded, under-paid, under-appreciated" staff. Could have been written any time, any place. Just her standard rant with a bit of coronavirus added on.

    I'm really irritated with people trying to make political points at this stage
    It was too political. But we as a society need to face up to some brutal choices about our decisions. This pandemic will force that upon us.

    We can't offer universal health care on our current (old) tax take. It's impossible. We have a health care system that is hollowed out as a consequence. Public health in particular has been hollowed out.

    But but but it gets a budget increase each year. Yes not enough, not enough by a long long way. This message will be brutally clear over the next few weeks and months. Get used to it.


    Surely it was published simply to help Americans maintain their illusions that other countries have it worse?
    The Americans will feel smug for a few days until they realise their government has made even more of a mess of this than we have.
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    3 things.
    1. I think the Government and BJ are getting much better I would go as far as to say the PM was very good today.
    2 Why is our death rate still so high compared to others at 4%? Germany incredibly low but even compared to France the USA and many others we are very high I dont really know why.

    3 We seem to think 20000 deaths is a good outcome. That is 6 times more than China and our population is far smaller. Expectation management or grim reality?

    I wouldn't use China as a benchmark in this at all.

    i) You really can't believe their numbers

    ii) They used measures that I think Western Liberal countries will not undertake.
    People who in Germany or Scandinavia would be admitted to hospital are being told to stay at home, as for normal flu. That's my impression. If they recover, they don't count as a COVID-19 case.

    Taiwan's statistics are impressive -
    population 24 million, 100 cases, one death.
    or if scaled up to the UK
    population 66 million, 275 cases, three deaths.

    It's a democracy, unlike China.

    Compared to Taiwan, 20,000 UK deaths is grotesque.
    It is indeed. The concentration of patients in fever hospitals is an effective break of transmission. Not just good for the figures, it will significantly lower the peak.

    We haven't got the bed capacity for that though taking over some hotels for the purpose would be easy enough.
    Sounds persuasive, and more than one hotel chain has volunteered (perhaps because they can't fiill their rooms any other way, but whatever the motive it seems helpful). Is anyone here in close enough touch with decision-makers to suggest it?
    I think the Chinese funnel model works.
    Fever clinic,
    If test positive, fever hospital,
    If deteriorating, then Acute hospital,
    If deteriorating further, ICU.

    It all is dependant on accurate diagnosis and testing. We have neither at present.
    My understanding of the Chinese funnel model isn't accurate diagnosis off the bat, rather at the start of the funnel it is using quick and dirty methods to rule people out.

    So they have a series of steps where they aren't performing test for coronavirus, rather a series of other things that quickly eliminate individuals who definitely don't have it.

    It is only after a number of steps do they then test for coronavirus.

    South Korea is more direct, the road side quick test, and if you test positive on that you get funnelled to the gold standard one.
    "Diagnosis off the Bat" *giggles*
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    I’m a Doctor in Britain. We’re Heading Into the Abyss.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/opinion/coronavirus-uk-nhs.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

    (Not one for the faint hearted to read).

    Jessica Potter (@DrJessPotter) is a respiratory specialist doctor working in London and a member of EveryDoctor, an organization that campaigns for the working rights of doctors.

    It was a bit of an anti-Tory rant to be honest
    You might have to get used to that for a bit.
    Have you read it? It was "under-funded, under-paid, under-appreciated" staff. Could have been written any time, any place. Just her standard rant with a bit of coronavirus added on.

    I'm really irritated with people trying to make political points at this stage
    It was too political. But we as a society need to face up to some brutal choices about our decisions. This pandemic will force that upon us.

    We can't offer universal health care on our current (old) tax take. It's impossible. We have a health care system that is hollowed out as a consequence. Public health in particular has been hollowed out.

    But but but it gets a budget increase each year. Yes not enough, not enough by a long long way. This message will be brutally clear over the next few weeks and months. Get used to it.


    Surely it was published simply to help Americans maintain their illusions that other countries have it worse?
    US cases 7600, have I been asleep as the numbers rose?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    I’m a Doctor in Britain. We’re Heading Into the Abyss.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/opinion/coronavirus-uk-nhs.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

    (Not one for the faint hearted to read).

    Jessica Potter (@DrJessPotter) is a respiratory specialist doctor working in London and a member of EveryDoctor, an organization that campaigns for the working rights of doctors.

    It was a bit of an anti-Tory rant to be honest
    You might have to get used to that for a bit.
    Have you read it? It was "under-funded, under-paid, under-appreciated" staff. Could have been written any time, any place. Just her standard rant with a bit of coronavirus added on.

    I'm really irritated with people trying to make political points at this stage
    It was too political. But we as a society need to face up to some brutal choices about our decisions. This pandemic will force that upon us.

    We can't offer universal health care on our current (old) tax take. It's impossible. We have a health care system that is hollowed out as a consequence. Public health in particular has been hollowed out.

    But but but it gets a budget increase each year. Yes not enough, not enough by a long long way. This message will be brutally clear over the next few weeks and months. Get used to it.


    Surely it was published simply to help Americans maintain their illusions that other countries have it worse?
    And I suspect the UK press turned it down
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    3 things.
    1. I think the Government and BJ are getting much better I would go as far as to say the PM was very good today.
    2 Why is our death rate still so high compared to others at 4%? Germany incredibly low but even compared to France the USA and many others we are very high I dont really know why.

    3 We seem to think 20000 deaths is a good outcome. That is 6 times more than China and our population is far smaller. Expectation management or grim reality?

    I wouldn't use China as a benchmark in this at all.

    i) You really can't believe their numbers

    ii) They used measures that I think Western Liberal countries will not undertake.
    People who in Germany or Scandinavia would be admitted to hospital are being told to stay at home, as for normal flu. That's my impression. If they recover, they don't count as a COVID-19 case.

    Taiwan's statistics are impressive -
    population 24 million, 100 cases, one death.
    or if scaled up to the UK
    population 66 million, 275 cases, three deaths.

    It's a democracy, unlike China.

    Compared to Taiwan, 20,000 UK deaths is grotesque.
    It is indeed. The concentration of patients in fever hospitals is an effective break of transmission. Not just good for the figures, it will significantly lower the peak.

    We haven't got the bed capacity for that though taking over some hotels for the purpose would be easy enough.
    Sounds persuasive, and more than one hotel chain has volunteered (perhaps because they can't fiill their rooms any other way, but whatever the motive it seems helpful). Is anyone here in close enough touch with decision-makers to suggest it?
    I think the Chinese funnel model works.
    Fever clinic,
    If test positive, fever hospital,
    If deteriorating, then Acute hospital,
    If deteriorating further, ICU.

    It all is dependant on accurate diagnosis and testing. We have neither at present.
    My understanding of the Chinese funnel model isn't accurate diagnosis off the bat, rather at the start of the funnel it is using quick and dirty methods to rule people out.

    So they have a series of steps where they aren't performing test for coronavirus, rather a series of other things that quickly eliminate individuals who definitely don't have it.

    It is only after a number of steps do they then test for coronavirus.

    South Korea is more direct, the road side quick test, and if you test positive on that you get funnelled to the gold standard one.
    "Diagnosis off the Bat" *giggles*
    That wasn't intentional :blush:
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    nichomar said:

    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    I’m a Doctor in Britain. We’re Heading Into the Abyss.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/opinion/coronavirus-uk-nhs.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

    (Not one for the faint hearted to read).

    Jessica Potter (@DrJessPotter) is a respiratory specialist doctor working in London and a member of EveryDoctor, an organization that campaigns for the working rights of doctors.

    It was a bit of an anti-Tory rant to be honest
    You might have to get used to that for a bit.
    Have you read it? It was "under-funded, under-paid, under-appreciated" staff. Could have been written any time, any place. Just her standard rant with a bit of coronavirus added on.

    I'm really irritated with people trying to make political points at this stage
    It was too political. But we as a society need to face up to some brutal choices about our decisions. This pandemic will force that upon us.

    We can't offer universal health care on our current (old) tax take. It's impossible. We have a health care system that is hollowed out as a consequence. Public health in particular has been hollowed out.

    But but but it gets a budget increase each year. Yes not enough, not enough by a long long way. This message will be brutally clear over the next few weeks and months. Get used to it.


    Surely it was published simply to help Americans maintain their illusions that other countries have it worse?
    US cases 7600, have I been asleep as the numbers rose?
    If they were testing properly, I can only imagine what it would be.

    If we have probably 100k cases now off 2000 positive samples, mind boggles what they really have.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    nichomar said:

    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    I’m a Doctor in Britain. We’re Heading Into the Abyss.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/opinion/coronavirus-uk-nhs.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

    (Not one for the faint hearted to read).

    Jessica Potter (@DrJessPotter) is a respiratory specialist doctor working in London and a member of EveryDoctor, an organization that campaigns for the working rights of doctors.

    It was a bit of an anti-Tory rant to be honest
    You might have to get used to that for a bit.
    Have you read it? It was "under-funded, under-paid, under-appreciated" staff. Could have been written any time, any place. Just her standard rant with a bit of coronavirus added on.

    I'm really irritated with people trying to make political points at this stage
    It was too political. But we as a society need to face up to some brutal choices about our decisions. This pandemic will force that upon us.

    We can't offer universal health care on our current (old) tax take. It's impossible. We have a health care system that is hollowed out as a consequence. Public health in particular has been hollowed out.

    But but but it gets a budget increase each year. Yes not enough, not enough by a long long way. This message will be brutally clear over the next few weeks and months. Get used to it.


    Surely it was published simply to help Americans maintain their illusions that other countries have it worse?
    US cases 7600, have I been asleep as the numbers rose?
    I feel the American numbers require an asterisk.....
  • DAlexanderDAlexander Posts: 815
    nichomar said:

    Heading for a 10:year low £/€

    Why is this? Italy, France and Spain are worse off than us at the moment.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,557

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    I’m a Doctor in Britain. We’re Heading Into the Abyss.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/opinion/coronavirus-uk-nhs.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

    (Not one for the faint hearted to read).

    Jessica Potter (@DrJessPotter) is a respiratory specialist doctor working in London and a member of EveryDoctor, an organization that campaigns for the working rights of doctors.

    It was a bit of an anti-Tory rant to be honest
    You might have to get used to that for a bit.
    Have you read it? It was "under-funded, under-paid, under-appreciated" staff. Could have been written any time, any place. Just her standard rant with a bit of coronavirus added on.

    I'm really irritated with people trying to make political points at this stage
    It was too political. But we as a society need to face up to some brutal choices about our decisions. This pandemic will force that upon us.

    We can't offer universal health care on our current (old) tax take. It's impossible. We have a health care system that is hollowed out as a consequence. Public health in particular has been hollowed out.

    But but but it gets a budget increase each year. Yes not enough, not enough by a long long way. This message will be brutally clear over the next few weeks and months. Get used to it.


    I don't think I ever encounter someone who will tell me how much expenditure on the NHS would satisfy them. All I am clear about is that when there is a Tory government it is never enough. What would be enough? It would be useful to know, either as an amount of money at current value or as a % of GDP/GNP. At least you would then know what sort of society the critics are aiming at.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited March 2020
    nichomar said:

    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    I’m a Doctor in Britain. We’re Heading Into the Abyss.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/opinion/coronavirus-uk-nhs.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

    (Not one for the faint hearted to read).

    Jessica Potter (@DrJessPotter) is a respiratory specialist doctor working in London and a member of EveryDoctor, an organization that campaigns for the working rights of doctors.

    It was a bit of an anti-Tory rant to be honest
    You might have to get used to that for a bit.
    Have you read it? It was "under-funded, under-paid, under-appreciated" staff. Could have been written any time, any place. Just her standard rant with a bit of coronavirus added on.

    I'm really irritated with people trying to make political points at this stage
    It was too political. But we as a society need to face up to some brutal choices about our decisions. This pandemic will force that upon us.

    We can't offer universal health care on our current (old) tax take. It's impossible. We have a health care system that is hollowed out as a consequence. Public health in particular has been hollowed out.

    But but but it gets a budget increase each year. Yes not enough, not enough by a long long way. This message will be brutally clear over the next few weeks and months. Get used to it.


    Surely it was published simply to help Americans maintain their illusions that other countries have it worse?
    US cases 7600, have I been asleep as the numbers rose?
    You are Donald Trump and I claim my $5
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    nichomar said:

    Heading for a 10:year low £/€

    Why is this? Italy, France and Spain are worse off than us at the moment.
    The country that pays the bills is doing okay though.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,622
    IanB2 said:

    Anecdotes.

    No bog roll, dried pasta, soap or fresh milk in Tesco but everything else seemed available.

    Bog roll, soap and fresh milk available in the nearby village shop - didn't look for dried pasta.

    Two unconnected people off at work with symptoms from under a hundred - this is way more widespread than the official figures suggest.

    I never knew people ate so much pasta. And with what?

    Tinned mackeral is what you want. There are stacks of it in every supermarket (you can see why British fish has to be exported), in all manner of sauces. All you need is a biscuit and a fork. No preparation, better nutrition than plain pasta. The fish oil might even help your body fight off the plague. And it keeps for ever.
    I like tinned mackeral as well.

    Heat it up with some tinned chickpeas and it goes great with pasta.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    On a totally different note.

    Who do you think is the better Mark Antony ?

    Charlton Heston:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bi1PvXCbr8

    or Marlon Brando:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=101sKhH-lMQ

    For me its Charlton Heston.

    Sid James...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    I’m a Doctor in Britain. We’re Heading Into the Abyss.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/opinion/coronavirus-uk-nhs.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

    (Not one for the faint hearted to read).

    Jessica Potter (@DrJessPotter) is a respiratory specialist doctor working in London and a member of EveryDoctor, an organization that campaigns for the working rights of doctors.

    It was a bit of an anti-Tory rant to be honest
    You might have to get used to that for a bit.
    Have you read it? It was "under-funded, under-paid, under-appreciated" staff. Could have been written any time, any place. Just her standard rant with a bit of coronavirus added on.

    I'm really irritated with people trying to make political points at this stage
    It was too political. But we as a society need to face up to some brutal choices about our decisions. This pandemic will force that upon us.

    We can't offer universal health care on our current (old) tax take. It's impossible. We have a health care system that is hollowed out as a consequence. Public health in particular has been hollowed out.

    But but but it gets a budget increase each year. Yes not enough, not enough by a long long way. This message will be brutally clear over the next few weeks and months. Get used to it.


    Germany for example funds its healthcare system mainly via public insurance paid into via employer and employee not via income tax
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    algarkirk said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    I’m a Doctor in Britain. We’re Heading Into the Abyss.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/opinion/coronavirus-uk-nhs.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

    (Not one for the faint hearted to read).

    Jessica Potter (@DrJessPotter) is a respiratory specialist doctor working in London and a member of EveryDoctor, an organization that campaigns for the working rights of doctors.

    It was a bit of an anti-Tory rant to be honest
    You might have to get used to that for a bit.
    Have you read it? It was "under-funded, under-paid, under-appreciated" staff. Could have been written any time, any place. Just her standard rant with a bit of coronavirus added on.

    I'm really irritated with people trying to make political points at this stage
    It was too political. But we as a society need to face up to some brutal choices about our decisions. This pandemic will force that upon us.

    We can't offer universal health care on our current (old) tax take. It's impossible. We have a health care system that is hollowed out as a consequence. Public health in particular has been hollowed out.

    But but but it gets a budget increase each year. Yes not enough, not enough by a long long way. This message will be brutally clear over the next few weeks and months. Get used to it.


    I don't think I ever encounter someone who will tell me how much expenditure on the NHS would satisfy them. All I am clear about is that when there is a Tory government it is never enough. What would be enough? It would be useful to know, either as an amount of money at current value or as a % of GDP/GNP. At least you would then know what sort of society the critics are aiming at.

    As Sir Humphrey once told us, you can spent as much on the NHS as you want. Paying for it is a sacrifice to assuage our consciences. We decide what taxes we are willing to pay and then the NHS is defined from there.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    nichomar said:

    Heading for a 10:year low £/€

    Why is this? Italy, France and Spain are worse off than us at the moment.
    Uk BoE is offering to do unlimited QE. Has tanked the currency.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,037
    IanB2 said:

    Anecdotes.

    No bog roll, dried pasta, soap or fresh milk in Tesco but everything else seemed available.

    Bog roll, soap and fresh milk available in the nearby village shop - didn't look for dried pasta.

    Two unconnected people off at work with symptoms from under a hundred - this is way more widespread than the official figures suggest.

    I never knew people ate so much pasta. And with what?

    Tinned mackeral is what you want. There are stacks of it in every supermarket (you can see why British fish has to be exported), in all manner of sauces. All you need is a biscuit and a fork. No preparation, better nutrition than plain pasta. The fish oil might even help your body fight off the plague. And it keeps for ever.
    I love tinned mackerel. Straight out of the tin. All the nutrients and no fishy pong in the kitchen.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,037

    IanB2 said:

    Anecdotes.

    No bog roll, dried pasta, soap or fresh milk in Tesco but everything else seemed available.

    Bog roll, soap and fresh milk available in the nearby village shop - didn't look for dried pasta.

    Two unconnected people off at work with symptoms from under a hundred - this is way more widespread than the official figures suggest.

    I never knew people ate so much pasta. And with what?

    Tinned mackeral is what you want. There are stacks of it in every supermarket (you can see why British fish has to be exported), in all manner of sauces. All you need is a biscuit and a fork. No preparation, better nutrition than plain pasta. The fish oil might even help your body fight off the plague.
    Perhaps ironically, given the wartime association, the spam hadn’t been touched in our tesco either.
    I bought Spam yesterday because there was no corned beef.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    Are the VAR result in from if Prince Philip was offside or not?

    I love this tweet...

    HRH Prince Philip has died more times than my iPhone
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,622

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    I’m a Doctor in Britain. We’re Heading Into the Abyss.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/opinion/coronavirus-uk-nhs.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

    (Not one for the faint hearted to read).

    Jessica Potter (@DrJessPotter) is a respiratory specialist doctor working in London and a member of EveryDoctor, an organization that campaigns for the working rights of doctors.

    It was a bit of an anti-Tory rant to be honest
    You might have to get used to that for a bit.
    Have you read it? It was "under-funded, under-paid, under-appreciated" staff. Could have been written any time, any place. Just her standard rant with a bit of coronavirus added on.

    I'm really irritated with people trying to make political points at this stage
    It was too political. But we as a society need to face up to some brutal choices about our decisions. This pandemic will force that upon us.

    We can't offer universal health care on our current (old) tax take. It's impossible. We have a health care system that is hollowed out as a consequence. Public health in particular has been hollowed out.

    But but but it gets a budget increase each year. Yes not enough, not enough by a long long way. This message will be brutally clear over the next few weeks and months. Get used to it.


    A few reserve pharmaceutical, medical supplies and food processing factories would be a good idea.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_shadow_factories
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,622
    Foxy said:

    On a totally different note.

    Who do you think is the better Mark Antony ?

    Charlton Heston:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bi1PvXCbr8

    or Marlon Brando:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=101sKhH-lMQ

    For me its Charlton Heston.

    Sid James...
    Infamy.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    3 things.
    1. I think the Government and BJ are getting much better I would go as far as to say the PM was very good today.
    2 Why is our death rate still so high compared to others at 4%? Germany incredibly low but even compared to France the USA and many others we are very high I dont really know why.

    3 We seem to think 20000 deaths is a good outcome. That is 6 times more than China and our population is far smaller. Expectation management or grim reality?

    I wouldn't use China as a benchmark in this at all.

    i) You really can't believe their numbers

    ii) They used measures that I think Western Liberal countries will not undertake.
    I am very sceptical about the number of cases being reported in China,.

    Being the cause of this outbreak has been a major blow to their international presitge and I believe the figures are being massaged to save face and tell the world how brilliant they have been at sorting it out.

    Did any other country try to conceal the virus in the first place and silence doctors and journalists that reported it?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    edited March 2020

    Foxy said:

    On a totally different note.

    Who do you think is the better Mark Antony ?

    Charlton Heston:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bi1PvXCbr8

    or Marlon Brando:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=101sKhH-lMQ

    For me its Charlton Heston.

    Sid James...
    Infamy.
    That was Frankie Howard wasn’t it?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    nichomar said:

    Heading for a 10:year low £/€

    Why is this? Italy, France and Spain are worse off than us at the moment.
    Safety in numbers.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228
    nichomar said:

    Foxy said:

    On a totally different note.

    Who do you think is the better Mark Antony ?

    Charlton Heston:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bi1PvXCbr8

    or Marlon Brando:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=101sKhH-lMQ

    For me its Charlton Heston.

    Sid James...
    Infamy.
    That was Frankie Howard wasn’t it?
    Kenneth Williams.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited March 2020
    Scott_xP said:

    twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1240340813936279553

    Stop f##king leaking...FFS...this is beyond irresponsible.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,622
    nichomar said:

    Foxy said:

    On a totally different note.

    Who do you think is the better Mark Antony ?

    Charlton Heston:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bi1PvXCbr8

    or Marlon Brando:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=101sKhH-lMQ

    For me its Charlton Heston.

    Sid James...
    Infamy.
    That was Frankie Howard wasn’t it?
    Kenneth Williams:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6BJJe9JV_A
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    nichomar said:

    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    I’m a Doctor in Britain. We’re Heading Into the Abyss.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/opinion/coronavirus-uk-nhs.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

    (Not one for the faint hearted to read).

    Jessica Potter (@DrJessPotter) is a respiratory specialist doctor working in London and a member of EveryDoctor, an organization that campaigns for the working rights of doctors.

    It was a bit of an anti-Tory rant to be honest
    You might have to get used to that for a bit.
    Have you read it? It was "under-funded, under-paid, under-appreciated" staff. Could have been written any time, any place. Just her standard rant with a bit of coronavirus added on.

    I'm really irritated with people trying to make political points at this stage
    It was too political. But we as a society need to face up to some brutal choices about our decisions. This pandemic will force that upon us.

    We can't offer universal health care on our current (old) tax take. It's impossible. We have a health care system that is hollowed out as a consequence. Public health in particular has been hollowed out.

    But but but it gets a budget increase each year. Yes not enough, not enough by a long long way. This message will be brutally clear over the next few weeks and months. Get used to it.


    Surely it was published simply to help Americans maintain their illusions that other countries have it worse?
    US cases 7600, have I been asleep as the numbers rose?
    I feel the American numbers require an asterisk.....
    and/or an extra zero or 2
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    Scott_xP said:

    twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1240340813936279553

    Stop f##king leaking...FFS...this is beyond irresponsible.
    I'm all for a free press, but what is the national interest in revealing this before it is ready?
  • whunterwhunter Posts: 60

    IanB2 said:

    Anecdotes.

    No bog roll, dried pasta, soap or fresh milk in Tesco but everything else seemed available.

    Bog roll, soap and fresh milk available in the nearby village shop - didn't look for dried pasta.

    Two unconnected people off at work with symptoms from under a hundred - this is way more widespread than the official figures suggest.

    I never knew people ate so much pasta. And with what?

    Tinned mackeral is what you want. There are stacks of it in every supermarket (you can see why British fish has to be exported), in all manner of sauces. All you need is a biscuit and a fork. No preparation, better nutrition than plain pasta. The fish oil might even help your body fight off the plague.
    Perhaps ironically, given the wartime association, the spam hadn’t been touched in our tesco either.
    I bought Spam yesterday because there was no corned beef.
    Good evening. May I recommend the canned ham from Asda. Perfectly edible.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Scott_xP said:

    twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1240340813936279553

    Stop f##king leaking...FFS...this is beyond irresponsible.
    Next we get an exodus from London and a much wider spread
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1240340813936279553

    Stop f##king leaking...FFS...this is beyond irresponsible.
    I'm all for a free press, but what is the national interest in revealing this before it is ready?
    When people run for the hills and spread around the country, they are responsible for the deaths.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    The RCS ™ Buzzword Generator

    <?php

    $verb = array(
    "swear at", "shout at", "hug",
    "accuse", "incite",
    "pretend that", "deny that"
    );
    $thing = array(
    "Radiohead", "posters", "python",
    "RCS", "Leavers", "Remainers",
    "Tories", "Trots"
    );
    $action = array(
    "being stupid", "small-mindedness",
    "being brain dead", "loving the EU",
    "hating the EU", "being J C Junker",
    "being useless"
    );


    for( $i=1; $i <= 10; $i++ ) {

    $v = $verb[ array_rand($verb) ];
    $a = $action[ array_rand($action) ];
    $t = $thing[ array_rand($thing) ];

    print("$i. Do not $v $t for $a<br/>\n");
    }
    1. Do not shout at posters for being useless
    2. Do not pretend that Remainers for hating the EU
    3. Do not accuse Trots for being useless
    4. Do not shout at Trots for small-mindedness
    5. Do not deny that RCS for being brain dead
    6. Do not shout at Remainers for being brain dead
    7. Do not swear at python for hating the EU
    8. Do not swear at Trots for being useless
    9. Do not shout at Radiohead for being stupid
    10. Do not hug python for hating the EU
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    OllyT said:

    3 things.
    1. I think the Government and BJ are getting much better I would go as far as to say the PM was very good today.
    2 Why is our death rate still so high compared to others at 4%? Germany incredibly low but even compared to France the USA and many others we are very high I dont really know why.

    3 We seem to think 20000 deaths is a good outcome. That is 6 times more than China and our population is far smaller. Expectation management or grim reality?

    I wouldn't use China as a benchmark in this at all.

    i) You really can't believe their numbers

    ii) They used measures that I think Western Liberal countries will not undertake.
    I am very sceptical about the number of cases being reported in China,.

    Being the cause of this outbreak has been a major blow to their international presitge and I believe the figures are being massaged to save face and tell the world how brilliant they have been at sorting it out.

    Did any other country try to conceal the virus in the first place and silence doctors and journalists that reported it?
    The World Health Organisation seem to believe them. They had one fresh case declared today.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117
    IanB2 said:

    nichomar said:

    Heading for a 10:year low £/€

    Why is this? Italy, France and Spain are worse off than us at the moment.
    Uk BoE is offering to do unlimited QE. Has tanked the currency.
    I don't want to score points...but now being in the Euro is the place to be....
    All that fucking bollocky fucking little English nationalism...all of us guilty-but when something like this comes along, what use is it?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited March 2020
    Foxy said:

    OllyT said:

    3 things.
    1. I think the Government and BJ are getting much better I would go as far as to say the PM was very good today.
    2 Why is our death rate still so high compared to others at 4%? Germany incredibly low but even compared to France the USA and many others we are very high I dont really know why.

    3 We seem to think 20000 deaths is a good outcome. That is 6 times more than China and our population is far smaller. Expectation management or grim reality?

    I wouldn't use China as a benchmark in this at all.

    i) You really can't believe their numbers

    ii) They used measures that I think Western Liberal countries will not undertake.
    I am very sceptical about the number of cases being reported in China,.

    Being the cause of this outbreak has been a major blow to their international presitge and I believe the figures are being massaged to save face and tell the world how brilliant they have been at sorting it out.

    Did any other country try to conceal the virus in the first place and silence doctors and journalists that reported it?
    The World Health Organisation seem to believe them. They had one fresh case declared today.
    But it is clear no other western government does.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,218

    The RCS ™ Buzzword Generator


    <?php

    $verb = array(
    "swear at", "shout at", "hug",
    "accuse", "incite",
    "pretend that", "deny that"
    );
    $thing = array(
    "Radiohead", "posters", "python",
    "RCS", "Leavers", "Remainers",
    "Tories", "Trots"
    );
    $action = array(
    "being stupid", "small-mindedness",
    "being brain dead", "loving the EU",
    "hating the EU", "being J C Junker",
    "being useless"
    );


    for( $i=1; $i <= 10; $i++ ) {

    $v = $verb[ array_rand($verb) ];
    $a = $action[ array_rand($action) ];
    $t = $thing[ array_rand($thing) ];

    print("$i. Do not $v $t for $a<br/>\n");
    }
    1. Do not shout at posters for being useless
    2. Do not pretend that Remainers for hating the EU
    3. Do not accuse Trots for being useless
    4. Do not shout at Trots for small-mindedness
    5. Do not deny that RCS for being brain dead
    6. Do not shout at Remainers for being brain dead
    7. Do not swear at python for hating the EU
    8. Do not swear at Trots for being useless
    9. Do not shout at Radiohead for being stupid
    10. Do not hug python for hating the EU
    You can do that in about four lines in Python, and it'd be a whole bunch more readable.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,880
    nichomar said:

    Foxy said:

    On a totally different note.

    Who do you think is the better Mark Antony ?

    Charlton Heston:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bi1PvXCbr8

    or Marlon Brando:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=101sKhH-lMQ

    For me its Charlton Heston.

    Sid James...
    Infamy.
    That was Frankie Howard wasn’t it?
    Kenneth Williams
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    tyson said:

    IanB2 said:

    nichomar said:

    Heading for a 10:year low £/€

    Why is this? Italy, France and Spain are worse off than us at the moment.
    Uk BoE is offering to do unlimited QE. Has tanked the currency.
    I don't want to score points...but now being in the Euro is the place to be....
    All that fucking bollocky fucking little English nationalism...all of us guilty-but when something like this comes along, what use is it?
    There doesn't seem to be any immediate benefits. The downsides are enormous though, we'd be on the hook for the Spanish and Italian economies.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1240340813936279553

    Stop f##king leaking...FFS...this is beyond irresponsible.
    I'm all for a free press, but what is the national interest in revealing this before it is ready?
    I suppose it just about could be deliberate kite flying. “I’m warning you for the last time, if you don’t stop talking I’m keeping the whole class in after school. It’s your own time you’re wasting”.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    tyson said:

    IanB2 said:

    nichomar said:

    Heading for a 10:year low £/€

    Why is this? Italy, France and Spain are worse off than us at the moment.
    Uk BoE is offering to do unlimited QE. Has tanked the currency.
    I don't want to score points...but now being in the Euro is the place to be....
    All that fucking bollocky fucking little English nationalism...all of us guilty-but when something like this comes along, what use is it?
    You're ignorant. Having our own currency is the the place to be you muppet, the fact we are able and willing to do whatever QE that suits us is our choice as a sovereign nation with a sovereign currency.

    The building is on fire and economies trapped within the dithering BoE are going to struggle far more than independent nations setting their own policies - just like last time!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    rcs1000 said:

    The RCS ™ Buzzword Generator


    <?php

    $verb = array(
    "swear at", "shout at", "hug",
    "accuse", "incite",
    "pretend that", "deny that"
    );
    $thing = array(
    "Radiohead", "posters", "python",
    "RCS", "Leavers", "Remainers",
    "Tories", "Trots"
    );
    $action = array(
    "being stupid", "small-mindedness",
    "being brain dead", "loving the EU",
    "hating the EU", "being J C Junker",
    "being useless"
    );


    for( $i=1; $i <= 10; $i++ ) {

    $v = $verb[ array_rand($verb) ];
    $a = $action[ array_rand($action) ];
    $t = $thing[ array_rand($thing) ];

    print("$i. Do not $v $t for $a<br/>\n");
    }
    1. Do not shout at posters for being useless
    2. Do not pretend that Remainers for hating the EU
    3. Do not accuse Trots for being useless
    4. Do not shout at Trots for small-mindedness
    5. Do not deny that RCS for being brain dead
    6. Do not shout at Remainers for being brain dead
    7. Do not swear at python for hating the EU
    8. Do not swear at Trots for being useless
    9. Do not shout at Radiohead for being stupid
    10. Do not hug python for hating the EU
    You can do that in about four lines in Python, and it'd be a whole bunch more readable.
    And also 1-indexed? :o
  • whunterwhunter Posts: 60

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1240340813936279553

    Stop f##king leaking...FFS...this is beyond irresponsible.
    I'm all for a free press, but what is the national interest in revealing this before it is ready?
    When people run for the hills and spread around the country, they are responsible for the deaths.
    People are going in and out of London all the time, already. It isn't going to have any significant effect.
  • BalrogBalrog Posts: 207
    Does anyone understand why the government thinks making loans to businesses will lead them to keep staff on. The loan has to be paid back later. So businesses that lay off their staff and take them back on after things start to recover would be in a much better position. To make businesses keep staff surely they need to provide a contribution towards staff costs not a loan?
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    nichomar said:

    Foxy said:

    On a totally different note.

    Who do you think is the better Mark Antony ?

    Charlton Heston:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bi1PvXCbr8

    or Marlon Brando:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=101sKhH-lMQ

    For me its Charlton Heston.

    Sid James...
    Infamy.
    That was Frankie Howard wasn’t it?
    Kenneth Williams as Julius Caesar: “Infamy, infamy, they’ve all got it in for me”.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    Foxy said:

    OllyT said:

    3 things.
    1. I think the Government and BJ are getting much better I would go as far as to say the PM was very good today.
    2 Why is our death rate still so high compared to others at 4%? Germany incredibly low but even compared to France the USA and many others we are very high I dont really know why.

    3 We seem to think 20000 deaths is a good outcome. That is 6 times more than China and our population is far smaller. Expectation management or grim reality?

    I wouldn't use China as a benchmark in this at all.

    i) You really can't believe their numbers

    ii) They used measures that I think Western Liberal countries will not undertake.
    I am very sceptical about the number of cases being reported in China,.

    Being the cause of this outbreak has been a major blow to their international presitge and I believe the figures are being massaged to save face and tell the world how brilliant they have been at sorting it out.

    Did any other country try to conceal the virus in the first place and silence doctors and journalists that reported it?
    The World Health Organisation seem to believe them. They had one fresh case declared today.
    But it is clear no other western government does.
    Really? When did they say that?
    Restrictions are slowly being relaxed across China. You cannot hide that many deaths, if they were still happening.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Balrog said:

    Does anyone understand why the government thinks making loans to businesses will lead them to keep staff on. The loan has to be paid back later. So businesses that lay off their staff and take them back on after things start to recover would be in a much better position. To make businesses keep staff surely they need to provide a contribution towards staff costs not a loan?

    I'm guessing they are the kind of loan that will not be repaid, or only repaid by the most profitable of companies.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    nichomar said:

    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    I’m a Doctor in Britain. We’re Heading Into the Abyss.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/opinion/coronavirus-uk-nhs.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

    (Not one for the faint hearted to read).

    Jessica Potter (@DrJessPotter) is a respiratory specialist doctor working in London and a member of EveryDoctor, an organization that campaigns for the working rights of doctors.

    It was a bit of an anti-Tory rant to be honest
    You might have to get used to that for a bit.
    Have you read it? It was "under-funded, under-paid, under-appreciated" staff. Could have been written any time, any place. Just her standard rant with a bit of coronavirus added on.

    I'm really irritated with people trying to make political points at this stage
    It was too political. But we as a society need to face up to some brutal choices about our decisions. This pandemic will force that upon us.

    We can't offer universal health care on our current (old) tax take. It's impossible. We have a health care system that is hollowed out as a consequence. Public health in particular has been hollowed out.

    But but but it gets a budget increase each year. Yes not enough, not enough by a long long way. This message will be brutally clear over the next few weeks and months. Get used to it.


    Surely it was published simply to help Americans maintain their illusions that other countries have it worse?
    US cases 7600, have I been asleep as the numbers rose?
    8438 now according to Worldometer and their case per million capita is not far behind ours.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    OllyT said:

    3 things.
    1. I think the Government and BJ are getting much better I would go as far as to say the PM was very good today.
    2 Why is our death rate still so high compared to others at 4%? Germany incredibly low but even compared to France the USA and many others we are very high I dont really know why.

    3 We seem to think 20000 deaths is a good outcome. That is 6 times more than China and our population is far smaller. Expectation management or grim reality?

    I wouldn't use China as a benchmark in this at all.

    i) You really can't believe their numbers

    ii) They used measures that I think Western Liberal countries will not undertake.
    I am very sceptical about the number of cases being reported in China,.

    Being the cause of this outbreak has been a major blow to their international presitge and I believe the figures are being massaged to save face and tell the world how brilliant they have been at sorting it out.

    Did any other country try to conceal the virus in the first place and silence doctors and journalists that reported it?
    The World Health Organisation seem to believe them. They had one fresh case declared today.
    But it is clear no other western government does.
    Really? When did they say that?
    Restrictions are slowly being relaxed across China. You cannot hide that many deaths, if they were still happening.
    Didn't they just expel western journalists?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    Balrog said:

    Does anyone understand why the government thinks making loans to businesses will lead them to keep staff on. The loan has to be paid back later. So businesses that lay off their staff and take them back on after things start to recover would be in a much better position. To make businesses keep staff surely they need to provide a contribution towards staff costs not a loan?

    Ask HYUFD he seems the to be the only one that believes it
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    whunter said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1240340813936279553

    Stop f##king leaking...FFS...this is beyond irresponsible.
    I'm all for a free press, but what is the national interest in revealing this before it is ready?
    When people run for the hills and spread around the country, they are responsible for the deaths.
    People are going in and out of London all the time, already. It isn't going to have any significant effect.
    As all the second homers head for the cotswolds and all points west or where ever else they have them.
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,843
    OllyT said:

    3 things.
    1. I think the Government and BJ are getting much better I would go as far as to say the PM was very good today.
    2 Why is our death rate still so high compared to others at 4%? Germany incredibly low but even compared to France the USA and many others we are very high I dont really know why.

    3 We seem to think 20000 deaths is a good outcome. That is 6 times more than China and our population is far smaller. Expectation management or grim reality?

    I wouldn't use China as a benchmark in this at all.

    i) You really can't believe their numbers

    ii) They used measures that I think Western Liberal countries will not undertake.
    I am very sceptical about the number of cases being reported in China,.

    Being the cause of this outbreak has been a major blow to their international presitge and I believe the figures are being massaged to save face and tell the world how brilliant they have been at sorting it out.

    Did any other country try to conceal the virus in the first place and silence doctors and journalists that reported it?
    Even if the numbers are being massaged, if it was drastically worse it would have gotten out. You can't hide mass deaths for long. Look at Iran where they are also clearly not telling the true story with their figures, but we can see clear evidence of it, photos of mass graves, releasing prisoners etc.

    Also look at many of the east asian countries, they do seem to be getting a handle on it at this stage. Yes, there is the question of what next, but they are buying themselves valuable time. The West as a whole failed to act quickly enough. Each country watched the one before it succumb and yet didn't act until too late. Italy bungled it's intial response. France and Spain watch and don't take any action. France only implemented strong measures on Thursday, yet Italy has been in crisis for ages. The UK has seen what's happened in France and in Italy and still only just taking strong measures now.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    OllyT said:

    3 things.
    1. I think the Government and BJ are getting much better I would go as far as to say the PM was very good today.
    2 Why is our death rate still so high compared to others at 4%? Germany incredibly low but even compared to France the USA and many others we are very high I dont really know why.

    3 We seem to think 20000 deaths is a good outcome. That is 6 times more than China and our population is far smaller. Expectation management or grim reality?

    I wouldn't use China as a benchmark in this at all.

    i) You really can't believe their numbers

    ii) They used measures that I think Western Liberal countries will not undertake.
    I am very sceptical about the number of cases being reported in China,.

    Being the cause of this outbreak has been a major blow to their international presitge and I believe the figures are being massaged to save face and tell the world how brilliant they have been at sorting it out.

    Did any other country try to conceal the virus in the first place and silence doctors and journalists that reported it?
    The World Health Organisation seem to believe them. They had one fresh case declared today.
    But it is clear no other western government does.
    Really? When did they say that?
    Restrictions are slowly being relaxed across China. You cannot hide that many deaths, if they were still happening.
    Didn't they just expel western journalists?
    Just US ones in response to Trumps racism.
    But that wasn't the question. Which if any Western government has questioned the Chinese numbers?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited March 2020
    Just got back from a pub (not a social gathering, pre-scheduled and critical meeting that will enable me to now work from home). The guy I was meeting and I sat in a corner well away from others working on my Laptop to make plans but I was surprised how busy the pub was. Quiet apparently for a Tuesday (I'd never been there before) but still plenty of people there and the pool table was always occupied. On the other hand every group of people there were quite distant from all the others, there was no general mingling.

    Glad not to need to go to a pub now for the foreseeable future but that meeting was in the diary for a fortnight and I couldn't cancel it and rescheduling to a coffee shop would probable have been less socially distant.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117

    tyson said:

    IanB2 said:

    nichomar said:

    Heading for a 10:year low £/€

    Why is this? Italy, France and Spain are worse off than us at the moment.
    Uk BoE is offering to do unlimited QE. Has tanked the currency.
    I don't want to score points...but now being in the Euro is the place to be....
    All that fucking bollocky fucking little English nationalism...all of us guilty-but when something like this comes along, what use is it?
    You're ignorant. Having our own currency is the the place to be you muppet, the fact we are able and willing to do whatever QE that suits us is our choice as a sovereign nation with a sovereign currency.

    The building is on fire and economies trapped within the dithering BoE are going to struggle far more than independent nations setting their own policies - just like last time!
    Just like last time....???

    What are you talking about....there is no last time....

    The run on the pound today exposes our weaknesses....I'm as guilty as anyone because I never thought the Euro was a good idea....but now I do get REALLY get the big picture stuff...

    Global capitalism will go for the weak points first...and sadly, when the NHS in London shortly collapses, the pound will go with it....strength in numbers...
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    Foxy said:

    OllyT said:

    3 things.
    1. I think the Government and BJ are getting much better I would go as far as to say the PM was very good today.
    2 Why is our death rate still so high compared to others at 4%? Germany incredibly low but even compared to France the USA and many others we are very high I dont really know why.

    3 We seem to think 20000 deaths is a good outcome. That is 6 times more than China and our population is far smaller. Expectation management or grim reality?

    I wouldn't use China as a benchmark in this at all.

    i) You really can't believe their numbers

    ii) They used measures that I think Western Liberal countries will not undertake.
    I am very sceptical about the number of cases being reported in China,.

    Being the cause of this outbreak has been a major blow to their international presitge and I believe the figures are being massaged to save face and tell the world how brilliant they have been at sorting it out.

    Did any other country try to conceal the virus in the first place and silence doctors and journalists that reported it?
    The World Health Organisation seem to believe them. They had one fresh case declared today.
    Do you believe that in a country with the population of China there has been only 1 new case today? What choice do the WHO have but to accept the figures they come up with? If they were playing it with a straight bat why go to such lengths to cover it up to start with.

    I hope their figures are correct but I wouldn't bet the house on it. This raged in Hubai province since end of January and we are supposed to believe that there will shortly have been more deaths in Italy in the last fortnight than during the whole outbreak in China.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    Anecodote alert....now heard from all of my board game group. !0 people 8 paye folk 2 on zhc. Of the paye group 5 have been laid of since monday, 1 of the zhc group has no hours next week.

    Thanks HYUFD johnsons policies working so well and really protecting workers
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117

    Dan Hodges is clearly a bit of a narcissistic seanT type...that is just rubbish...I mean the guy should be exposed for just making crass, stupid statements....
  • IanB2 said:

    nichomar said:

    Heading for a 10:year low £/€

    Why is this? Italy, France and Spain are worse off than us at the moment.
    Uk BoE is offering to do unlimited QE. Has tanked the currency.
    Has tanked the currency. Has saved the economy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148
    Pagan2 said:

    Balrog said:

    Does anyone understand why the government thinks making loans to businesses will lead them to keep staff on. The loan has to be paid back later. So businesses that lay off their staff and take them back on after things start to recover would be in a much better position. To make businesses keep staff surely they need to provide a contribution towards staff costs not a loan?

    Ask HYUFD he seems the to be the only one that believes it
    If you don't make them loans but outright grants those businesses would instead just face a huge tax bill once the health threat recedes to enable the government to pay for it all
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117
    A much better response than mine to Nick Palmer
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,622
    rcs1000 said:

    NOTE TO ALL POSTERS. PLEASE BE POLITE. PLEASE BE MEASURED. PLEASE BE AT LEAST ONE THIRD SOBER.

    HERE ARE THE RULES:

    1. DO NOT SWEAR AT OTHER POSTERS
    2. DO NOT CALL OTHER POSTERS NAMES
    3. DO NOT SPECULATE ON THE REAL WORLD IDENTITY OF OTHER POSTERS
    4. DO NOT CRITICISE RADIOHEAD
    5. DO NOT INVENT STORIES ABOUT TALKING TO ALBANIAN TAXI DRIVERS
    6. DO NOT ACCUSE OTHER POSTERS OF LYING WITHOUT GOOD CAUSE
    7. DO NOT INCITE THE PLACING OF PINEAPPLE ON PIZZA
    8. DO NOT SPREAD HOLOCAUST DENIAL
    9. DO NOT PRETEND THAT THERE ARE PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES BETTER THAN PYTHON
    10. DO NOT POST MORE THAN ABOUT TEN TWEETS A DAY

    There may be more that I will need to invent.

    Has the Albanian taxi driver story been exposed ???

    Have I missed an enormous PB scandal ???
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    OllyT said:

    3 things.
    1. I think the Government and BJ are getting much better I would go as far as to say the PM was very good today.
    2 Why is our death rate still so high compared to others at 4%? Germany incredibly low but even compared to France the USA and many others we are very high I dont really know why.

    3 We seem to think 20000 deaths is a good outcome. That is 6 times more than China and our population is far smaller. Expectation management or grim reality?

    I wouldn't use China as a benchmark in this at all.

    i) You really can't believe their numbers

    ii) They used measures that I think Western Liberal countries will not undertake.
    I am very sceptical about the number of cases being reported in China,.

    Being the cause of this outbreak has been a major blow to their international presitge and I believe the figures are being massaged to save face and tell the world how brilliant they have been at sorting it out.

    Did any other country try to conceal the virus in the first place and silence doctors and journalists that reported it?
    Even if the numbers are being massaged, if it was drastically worse it would have gotten out. You can't hide mass deaths for long. Look at Iran where they are also clearly not telling the true story with their figures, but we can see clear evidence of it, photos of mass graves, releasing prisoners etc.

    Also look at many of the east asian countries, they do seem to be getting a handle on it at this stage. Yes, there is the question of what next, but they are buying themselves valuable time. The West as a whole failed to act quickly enough. Each country watched the one before it succumb and yet didn't act until too late. Italy bungled it's intial response. France and Spain watch and don't take any action. France only implemented strong measures on Thursday, yet Italy has been in crisis for ages. The UK has seen what's happened in France and in Italy and still only just taking strong measures now.
    There must be hundreds of deaths in China on a daily basis in normal times, not difficult for a regime like China to attribute deaths to other causes.

  • IanB2 said:

    nichomar said:

    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    I’m a Doctor in Britain. We’re Heading Into the Abyss.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/opinion/coronavirus-uk-nhs.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

    (Not one for the faint hearted to read).

    Jessica Potter (@DrJessPotter) is a respiratory specialist doctor working in London and a member of EveryDoctor, an organization that campaigns for the working rights of doctors.

    It was a bit of an anti-Tory rant to be honest
    You might have to get used to that for a bit.
    Have you read it? It was "under-funded, under-paid, under-appreciated" staff. Could have been written any time, any place. Just her standard rant with a bit of coronavirus added on.

    I'm really irritated with people trying to make political points at this stage
    It was too political. But we as a society need to face up to some brutal choices about our decisions. This pandemic will force that upon us.

    We can't offer universal health care on our current (old) tax take. It's impossible. We have a health care system that is hollowed out as a consequence. Public health in particular has been hollowed out.

    But but but it gets a budget increase each year. Yes not enough, not enough by a long long way. This message will be brutally clear over the next few weeks and months. Get used to it.


    Surely it was published simply to help Americans maintain their illusions that other countries have it worse?
    US cases 7600, have I been asleep as the numbers rose?
    You are Donald Trump and I claim my $5
    For whatever reason, unlike other countries, the U.S. total cases figure gets updated several times during the course of each day.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    IanB2 said:

    nichomar said:

    Heading for a 10:year low £/€

    Why is this? Italy, France and Spain are worse off than us at the moment.
    Uk BoE is offering to do unlimited QE. Has tanked the currency.
    I don't want to score points...but now being in the Euro is the place to be....
    All that fucking bollocky fucking little English nationalism...all of us guilty-but when something like this comes along, what use is it?
    You're ignorant. Having our own currency is the the place to be you muppet, the fact we are able and willing to do whatever QE that suits us is our choice as a sovereign nation with a sovereign currency.

    The building is on fire and economies trapped within the dithering BoE are going to struggle far more than independent nations setting their own policies - just like last time!
    Just like last time....???

    What are you talking about....there is no last time....

    The run on the pound today exposes our weaknesses....I'm as guilty as anyone because I never thought the Euro was a good idea....but now I do get REALLY get the big picture stuff...

    Global capitalism will go for the weak points first...and sadly, when the NHS in London shortly collapses, the pound will go with it....strength in numbers...
    No the run on the pound today demonstrates our strength. It is our strength in being able to print our own currency via QE when we need to do so to support the economy that is sending the pound down.

    And by last time I mean the last crisis, the financial crisis. The Bank of England then too was able to promptly initiate QE while the dithering ECB (sorry wrote dithering BoE last time) took ages to grasp the seriousness of the problem and even then failed to find a policy that could work across the whole of Europe.

    You're for some unknown reason viewing the pound going down as a bad thing. Its the natural consequence of a good thing right now - it is acting as a stabiliser!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148
    Pagan2 said:

    Anecodote alert....now heard from all of my board game group. !0 people 8 paye folk 2 on zhc. Of the paye group 5 have been laid of since monday, 1 of the zhc group has no hours next week.

    Thanks HYUFD johnsons policies working so well and really protecting workers

    Had there been no bailout all 8 paye would be laid off (assuming they cannot WAH) and likely permanently unemployed and had the government not made it easier for zhc staff to get benefits they would be stuffed too
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    rcs1000 said:

    The RCS ™ Buzzword Generator


    <?php

    $verb = array(
    "swear at", "shout at", "hug",
    "accuse", "incite",
    "pretend that", "deny that"
    );
    $thing = array(
    "Radiohead", "posters", "python",
    "RCS", "Leavers", "Remainers",
    "Tories", "Trots"
    );
    $action = array(
    "being stupid", "small-mindedness",
    "being brain dead", "loving the EU",
    "hating the EU", "being J C Junker",
    "being useless"
    );


    for( $i=1; $i <= 10; $i++ ) {

    $v = $verb[ array_rand($verb) ];
    $a = $action[ array_rand($action) ];
    $t = $thing[ array_rand($thing) ];

    print("$i. Do not $v $t for $a<br/>\n");
    }
    1. Do not shout at posters for being useless
    2. Do not pretend that Remainers for hating the EU
    3. Do not accuse Trots for being useless
    4. Do not shout at Trots for small-mindedness
    5. Do not deny that RCS for being brain dead
    6. Do not shout at Remainers for being brain dead
    7. Do not swear at python for hating the EU
    8. Do not swear at Trots for being useless
    9. Do not shout at Radiohead for being stupid
    10. Do not hug python for hating the EU
    You can do that in about four lines in Python, and it'd be a whole bunch more readable.
    Is PHP still a thing?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Balrog said:

    Does anyone understand why the government thinks making loans to businesses will lead them to keep staff on. The loan has to be paid back later. So businesses that lay off their staff and take them back on after things start to recover would be in a much better position. To make businesses keep staff surely they need to provide a contribution towards staff costs not a loan?

    Ask HYUFD he seems the to be the only one that believes it
    If you don't make them loans but outright grants those businesses would instead just face a huge tax bill once the health threat recedes to enable the government to pay for it all
    Like workers wouldnt also be facing a huge tax bill to fund it all in any case but at least they would have still have had an income instead of which they are being laid off, have to hope they will get taken on again when its over and still have a damn huge tax increase
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,218
    edited March 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    The RCS ™ Buzzword Generator


    <?php

    $verb = array(
    "swear at", "shout at", "hug",
    "accuse", "incite",
    "pretend that", "deny that"
    );
    $thing = array(
    "Radiohead", "posters", "python",
    "RCS", "Leavers", "Remainers",
    "Tories", "Trots"
    );
    $action = array(
    "being stupid", "small-mindedness",
    "being brain dead", "loving the EU",
    "hating the EU", "being J C Junker",
    "being useless"
    );


    for( $i=1; $i <= 10; $i++ ) {

    $v = $verb[ array_rand($verb) ];
    $a = $action[ array_rand($action) ];
    $t = $thing[ array_rand($thing) ];

    print("$i. Do not $v $t for $a<br/>\n");
    }
    1. Do not shout at posters for being useless
    2. Do not pretend that Remainers for hating the EU
    3. Do not accuse Trots for being useless
    4. Do not shout at Trots for small-mindedness
    5. Do not deny that RCS for being brain dead
    6. Do not shout at Remainers for being brain dead
    7. Do not swear at python for hating the EU
    8. Do not swear at Trots for being useless
    9. Do not shout at Radiohead for being stupid
    10. Do not hug python for hating the EU
    You can do that in about four lines in Python, and it'd be a whole bunch more readable.
    import random

    verbs = ["swear at", "shout at", "hug",
    "accuse", "incite",
    "pretend that", "deny that"]

    things = ["Radiohead", "posters", "python",
    "RCS", "Leavers", "Remainers",
    "Tories", "Trots"]


    actions = ["being stupid", "small-mindedness",
    "being brain dead", "loving the EU",
    "hating the EU", "being J C Junker",
    "being useless"]

    i = 1
    while i < 11:
    print("%d. Do not %s %s for %s" % (i, random.choice(verbs), random.choice(things), random.choice(actions)))
    i += 1
    Can probably be done more elegantly by a professional programmer.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    OllyT said:

    Foxy said:

    OllyT said:

    3 things.
    1. I think the Government and BJ are getting much better I would go as far as to say the PM was very good today.
    2 Why is our death rate still so high compared to others at 4%? Germany incredibly low but even compared to France the USA and many others we are very high I dont really know why.

    3 We seem to think 20000 deaths is a good outcome. That is 6 times more than China and our population is far smaller. Expectation management or grim reality?

    I wouldn't use China as a benchmark in this at all.

    i) You really can't believe their numbers

    ii) They used measures that I think Western Liberal countries will not undertake.
    I am very sceptical about the number of cases being reported in China,.

    Being the cause of this outbreak has been a major blow to their international presitge and I believe the figures are being massaged to save face and tell the world how brilliant they have been at sorting it out.

    Did any other country try to conceal the virus in the first place and silence doctors and journalists that reported it?
    The World Health Organisation seem to believe them. They had one fresh case declared today.
    Do you believe that in a country with the population of China there has been only 1 new case today? What choice do the WHO have but to accept the figures they come up with? If they were playing it with a straight bat why go to such lengths to cover it up to start with.

    I hope their figures are correct but I wouldn't bet the house on it. This raged in Hubai province since end of January and we are supposed to believe that there will shortly have been more deaths in Italy in the last fortnight than during the whole outbreak in China.
    It does seem peculiar, but after an initial bad start, the Chinese have been fairly open.

  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    IanB2 said:

    nichomar said:

    Heading for a 10:year low £/€

    Why is this? Italy, France and Spain are worse off than us at the moment.
    Uk BoE is offering to do unlimited QE. Has tanked the currency.
    I don't want to score points...but now being in the Euro is the place to be....
    All that fucking bollocky fucking little English nationalism...all of us guilty-but when something like this comes along, what use is it?
    You're ignorant. Having our own currency is the the place to be you muppet, the fact we are able and willing to do whatever QE that suits us is our choice as a sovereign nation with a sovereign currency.

    The building is on fire and economies trapped within the dithering BoE are going to struggle far more than independent nations setting their own policies - just like last time!
    Just like last time....???

    What are you talking about....there is no last time....

    The run on the pound today exposes our weaknesses....I'm as guilty as anyone because I never thought the Euro was a good idea....but now I do get REALLY get the big picture stuff...

    Global capitalism will go for the weak points first...and sadly, when the NHS in London shortly collapses, the pound will go with it....strength in numbers...
    No the run on the pound today demonstrates our strength. It is our strength in being able to print our own currency via QE when we need to do so to support the economy that is sending the pound down.

    And by last time I mean the last crisis, the financial crisis. The Bank of England then too was able to promptly initiate QE while the dithering ECB (sorry wrote dithering BoE last time) took ages to grasp the seriousness of the problem and even then failed to find a policy that could work across the whole of Europe.

    You're for some unknown reason viewing the pound going down as a bad thing. Its the natural consequence of a good thing right now - it is acting as a stabiliser!
    I hope you are right.....it makes our FTSE cheaper, and may keep our pension funds afloat....but I am seriously worried
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,218
    edited March 2020
    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    OllyT said:

    3 things.
    1. I think the Government and BJ are getting much better I would go as far as to say the PM was very good today.
    2 Why is our death rate still so high compared to others at 4%? Germany incredibly low but even compared to France the USA and many others we are very high I dont really know why.

    3 We seem to think 20000 deaths is a good outcome. That is 6 times more than China and our population is far smaller. Expectation management or grim reality?

    I wouldn't use China as a benchmark in this at all.

    i) You really can't believe their numbers

    ii) They used measures that I think Western Liberal countries will not undertake.
    I am very sceptical about the number of cases being reported in China,.

    Being the cause of this outbreak has been a major blow to their international presitge and I believe the figures are being massaged to save face and tell the world how brilliant they have been at sorting it out.

    Did any other country try to conceal the virus in the first place and silence doctors and journalists that reported it?
    The World Health Organisation seem to believe them. They had one fresh case declared today.
    But it is clear no other western government does.
    Really? When did they say that?
    Restrictions are slowly being relaxed across China. You cannot hide that many deaths, if they were still happening.
    Didn't they just expel western journalists?
    I though they got into a tit for tat with the US because Chinese journalists were banned from something or another.

    Ironic, really, given the current US President hates the New York Times and the Washington Post too.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The RCS ™ Buzzword Generator


    <?php

    $verb = array(
    "swear at", "shout at", "hug",
    "accuse", "incite",
    "pretend that", "deny that"
    );
    $thing = array(
    "Radiohead", "posters", "python",
    "RCS", "Leavers", "Remainers",
    "Tories", "Trots"
    );
    $action = array(
    "being stupid", "small-mindedness",
    "being brain dead", "loving the EU",
    "hating the EU", "being J C Junker",
    "being useless"
    );


    for( $i=1; $i <= 10; $i++ ) {

    $v = $verb[ array_rand($verb) ];
    $a = $action[ array_rand($action) ];
    $t = $thing[ array_rand($thing) ];

    print("$i. Do not $v $t for $a<br/>\n");
    }
    1. Do not shout at posters for being useless
    2. Do not pretend that Remainers for hating the EU
    3. Do not accuse Trots for being useless
    4. Do not shout at Trots for small-mindedness
    5. Do not deny that RCS for being brain dead
    6. Do not shout at Remainers for being brain dead
    7. Do not swear at python for hating the EU
    8. Do not swear at Trots for being useless
    9. Do not shout at Radiohead for being stupid
    10. Do not hug python for hating the EU
    You can do that in about four lines in Python, and it'd be a whole bunch more readable.
    import random

    verbs = ["swear at", "shout at", "hug",
    "accuse", "incite",
    "pretend that", "deny that"]

    things = ["Radiohead", "posters", "python",
    "RCS", "Leavers", "Remainers",
    "Tories", "Trots"]


    actions = ["being stupid", "small-mindedness",
    "being brain dead", "loving the EU",
    "hating the EU", "being J C Junker",
    "being useless"]

    i = 1
    while i < 11:
    print("%d. Do not %s %s for %s" % (i, random.choice(verbs), random.choice(things), random.choice(actions)))
    i += 1
    Can probably be done more elegantly by a professional programmer.
    I can feel the burn from here
  • Does anyone know what "London Lockdown" is likely to really mean. Is it likely for instance to prohibit drivers from entering and/or leaving the Capital? ... That really would be draconian and ultra-depressing.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    OllyT said:

    3 things.
    1. I think the Government and BJ are getting much better I would go as far as to say the PM was very good today.
    2 Why is our death rate still so high compared to others at 4%? Germany incredibly low but even compared to France the USA and many others we are very high I dont really know why.

    3 We seem to think 20000 deaths is a good outcome. That is 6 times more than China and our population is far smaller. Expectation management or grim reality?

    I wouldn't use China as a benchmark in this at all.

    i) You really can't believe their numbers

    ii) They used measures that I think Western Liberal countries will not undertake.
    I am very sceptical about the number of cases being reported in China,.

    Being the cause of this outbreak has been a major blow to their international presitge and I believe the figures are being massaged to save face and tell the world how brilliant they have been at sorting it out.

    Did any other country try to conceal the virus in the first place and silence doctors and journalists that reported it?
    Even if the numbers are being massaged, if it was drastically worse it would have gotten out. You can't hide mass deaths for long. Look at Iran where they are also clearly not telling the true story with their figures, but we can see clear evidence of it, photos of mass graves, releasing prisoners etc.

    Also look at many of the east asian countries, they do seem to be getting a handle on it at this stage. Yes, there is the question of what next, but they are buying themselves valuable time. The West as a whole failed to act quickly enough. Each country watched the one before it succumb and yet didn't act until too late. Italy bungled it's intial response. France and Spain watch and don't take any action. France only implemented strong measures on Thursday, yet Italy has been in crisis for ages. The UK has seen what's happened in France and in Italy and still only just taking strong measures now.
    So do we reckon Londoners will get any notice before they are locked in?
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117
    Foxy said:

    OllyT said:

    Foxy said:

    OllyT said:

    3 things.
    1. I think the Government and BJ are getting much better I would go as far as to say the PM was very good today.
    2 Why is our death rate still so high compared to others at 4%? Germany incredibly low but even compared to France the USA and many others we are very high I dont really know why.

    3 We seem to think 20000 deaths is a good outcome. That is 6 times more than China and our population is far smaller. Expectation management or grim reality?

    I wouldn't use China as a benchmark in this at all.

    i) You really can't believe their numbers

    ii) They used measures that I think Western Liberal countries will not undertake.
    I am very sceptical about the number of cases being reported in China,.

    Being the cause of this outbreak has been a major blow to their international presitge and I believe the figures are being massaged to save face and tell the world how brilliant they have been at sorting it out.

    Did any other country try to conceal the virus in the first place and silence doctors and journalists that reported it?
    The World Health Organisation seem to believe them. They had one fresh case declared today.
    Do you believe that in a country with the population of China there has been only 1 new case today? What choice do the WHO have but to accept the figures they come up with? If they were playing it with a straight bat why go to such lengths to cover it up to start with.

    I hope their figures are correct but I wouldn't bet the house on it. This raged in Hubai province since end of January and we are supposed to believe that there will shortly have been more deaths in Italy in the last fortnight than during the whole outbreak in China.
    It does seem peculiar, but after an initial bad start, the Chinese have been fairly open.

    My wife works on medical journals and she has round robin circulated a very optimistic email from a Chinese consultant she knows about Covid 19....
  • glwglw Posts: 9,910

    Foxy said:

    OllyT said:

    3 things.
    1. I think the Government and BJ are getting much better I would go as far as to say the PM was very good today.
    2 Why is our death rate still so high compared to others at 4%? Germany incredibly low but even compared to France the USA and many others we are very high I dont really know why.

    3 We seem to think 20000 deaths is a good outcome. That is 6 times more than China and our population is far smaller. Expectation management or grim reality?

    I wouldn't use China as a benchmark in this at all.

    i) You really can't believe their numbers

    ii) They used measures that I think Western Liberal countries will not undertake.
    I am very sceptical about the number of cases being reported in China,.

    Being the cause of this outbreak has been a major blow to their international presitge and I believe the figures are being massaged to save face and tell the world how brilliant they have been at sorting it out.

    Did any other country try to conceal the virus in the first place and silence doctors and journalists that reported it?
    The World Health Organisation seem to believe them. They had one fresh case declared today.
    But it is clear no other western government does.
    I cannot reconcile the UK, and other countries, belief in an iceberg of asymptomatic cases with what has happened in China. It took about 2 months from the first case to the start of serious action by the Chinese government. Did they really do such a great job of contact tracing that they suppressed the outbreak to basically nothing so quickly? China is a vast country with a huge population, with a lot of movement around their New Year, and yet there was apparently nothing like the spread in China that has been seen outside of China.

    I'm not claiming any particular insight, or alleging anything underhand, but I do find the difference between inside and outside China very puzzling.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,767
    tyson said:


    Dan Hodges is clearly a bit of a narcissistic seanT type...that is just rubbish...I mean the guy should be exposed for just making crass, stupid statements....
    https://twitter.com/uokayhun/status/1240375973314428929
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    IanB2 said:

    nichomar said:

    Heading for a 10:year low £/€

    Why is this? Italy, France and Spain are worse off than us at the moment.
    Uk BoE is offering to do unlimited QE. Has tanked the currency.
    I don't want to score points...but now being in the Euro is the place to be....
    All that fucking bollocky fucking little English nationalism...all of us guilty-but when something like this comes along, what use is it?
    You're ignorant. Having our own currency is the the place to be you muppet, the fact we are able and willing to do whatever QE that suits us is our choice as a sovereign nation with a sovereign currency.

    The building is on fire and economies trapped within the dithering BoE are going to struggle far more than independent nations setting their own policies - just like last time!
    Just like last time....???

    What are you talking about....there is no last time....

    The run on the pound today exposes our weaknesses....I'm as guilty as anyone because I never thought the Euro was a good idea....but now I do get REALLY get the big picture stuff...

    Global capitalism will go for the weak points first...and sadly, when the NHS in London shortly collapses, the pound will go with it....strength in numbers...
    No the run on the pound today demonstrates our strength. It is our strength in being able to print our own currency via QE when we need to do so to support the economy that is sending the pound down.

    And by last time I mean the last crisis, the financial crisis. The Bank of England then too was able to promptly initiate QE while the dithering ECB (sorry wrote dithering BoE last time) took ages to grasp the seriousness of the problem and even then failed to find a policy that could work across the whole of Europe.

    You're for some unknown reason viewing the pound going down as a bad thing. Its the natural consequence of a good thing right now - it is acting as a stabiliser!
    I hope you are right.....it makes our FTSE cheaper, and may keep our pension funds afloat....but I am seriously worried
    There's good reason to be worried, the whole world is worried, which is why our BoE are acting. The markets are reacting to our Central Banks swift action - don't interpret that as a bad thing.

    If we were locked inside a burning building unable to act then this would be worse. Basically consider our own independent Central Bank as our own form of social distancing at the minute - its not nice, but it works!
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    algarkirk said:



    I don't think I ever encounter someone who will tell me how much expenditure on the NHS would satisfy them. All I am clear about is that when there is a Tory government it is never enough. What would be enough? It would be useful to know, either as an amount of money at current value or as a % of GDP/GNP. At least you would then know what sort of society the critics are aiming at.

    I was fairly satisfied with where we got to in 2008. Non-urgent operations within 18 weeks seemed reasonable - sure, it's a long time to wait for a hip replacement but one can struggle along for a few months. A&E within 4 hours, cancer treatment within 2 weeks. At that point, I wasn't finding many constituents demanding that it got better still.

    In 1997, by contrast, waiting times of 2 years+ were not uncommon. We're heading back that way. As Gideon says, it comes down to paying tax, and I know almost nobody who wouldn't be willing to pay some more if it was ring-fenced for health, since we all know we'll need it one day.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,767

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    IanB2 said:

    nichomar said:

    Heading for a 10:year low £/€

    Why is this? Italy, France and Spain are worse off than us at the moment.
    Uk BoE is offering to do unlimited QE. Has tanked the currency.
    I don't want to score points...but now being in the Euro is the place to be....
    All that fucking bollocky fucking little English nationalism...all of us guilty-but when something like this comes along, what use is it?
    You're ignorant. Having our own currency is the the place to be you muppet, the fact we are able and willing to do whatever QE that suits us is our choice as a sovereign nation with a sovereign currency.

    The building is on fire and economies trapped within the dithering BoE are going to struggle far more than independent nations setting their own policies - just like last time!
    Just like last time....???

    What are you talking about....there is no last time....

    The run on the pound today exposes our weaknesses....I'm as guilty as anyone because I never thought the Euro was a good idea....but now I do get REALLY get the big picture stuff...

    Global capitalism will go for the weak points first...and sadly, when the NHS in London shortly collapses, the pound will go with it....strength in numbers...
    No the run on the pound today demonstrates our strength. It is our strength in being able to print our own currency via QE when we need to do so to support the economy that is sending the pound down.

    And by last time I mean the last crisis, the financial crisis. The Bank of England then too was able to promptly initiate QE while the dithering ECB (sorry wrote dithering BoE last time) took ages to grasp the seriousness of the problem and even then failed to find a policy that could work across the whole of Europe.

    You're for some unknown reason viewing the pound going down as a bad thing. Its the natural consequence of a good thing right now - it is acting as a stabiliser!
    I hope you are right.....it makes our FTSE cheaper, and may keep our pension funds afloat....but I am seriously worried
    There's good reason to be worried, the whole world is worried, which is why our BoE are acting. The markets are reacting to our Central Banks swift action - don't interpret that as a bad thing.

    If we were locked inside a burning building unable to act then this would be worse. Basically consider our own independent Central Bank as our own form of social distancing at the minute - its not nice, but it works!
    ECB can't make the swift moves our Bank can.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117
    For a one word response.....that was a sublime reply from Sunil....
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    That better be the last comment
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    nichomar said:

    That better be the last comment
    it cant be the last there is still something afoot
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,218

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    IanB2 said:

    nichomar said:

    Heading for a 10:year low £/€

    Why is this? Italy, France and Spain are worse off than us at the moment.
    Uk BoE is offering to do unlimited QE. Has tanked the currency.
    I don't want to score points...but now being in the Euro is the place to be....
    All that fucking bollocky fucking little English nationalism...all of us guilty-but when something like this comes along, what use is it?
    You're ignorant. Having our own currency is the the place to be you muppet, the fact we are able and willing to do whatever QE that suits us is our choice as a sovereign nation with a sovereign currency.

    The building is on fire and economies trapped within the dithering BoE are going to struggle far more than independent nations setting their own policies - just like last time!
    Just like last time....???

    What are you talking about....there is no last time....

    The run on the pound today exposes our weaknesses....I'm as guilty as anyone because I never thought the Euro was a good idea....but now I do get REALLY get the big picture stuff...

    Global capitalism will go for the weak points first...and sadly, when the NHS in London shortly collapses, the pound will go with it....strength in numbers...
    No the run on the pound today demonstrates our strength. It is our strength in being able to print our own currency via QE when we need to do so to support the economy that is sending the pound down.

    And by last time I mean the last crisis, the financial crisis. The Bank of England then too was able to promptly initiate QE while the dithering ECB (sorry wrote dithering BoE last time) took ages to grasp the seriousness of the problem and even then failed to find a policy that could work across the whole of Europe.

    You're for some unknown reason viewing the pound going down as a bad thing. Its the natural consequence of a good thing right now - it is acting as a stabiliser!
    I hope you are right.....it makes our FTSE cheaper, and may keep our pension funds afloat....but I am seriously worried
    There's good reason to be worried, the whole world is worried, which is why our BoE are acting. The markets are reacting to our Central Banks swift action - don't interpret that as a bad thing.

    If we were locked inside a burning building unable to act then this would be worse. Basically consider our own independent Central Bank as our own form of social distancing at the minute - its not nice, but it works!
    ECB can't make the swift moves our Bank can.
    The ECB is effectively backstopping all the Eurozone governments right now. The question is whether they will continue to do so after the crisis is over.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited March 2020
    glw said:

    Foxy said:

    OllyT said:

    3 things.
    1. I think the Government and BJ are getting much better I would go as far as to say the PM was very good today.
    2 Why is our death rate still so high compared to others at 4%? Germany incredibly low but even compared to France the USA and many others we are very high I dont really know why.

    3 We seem to think 20000 deaths is a good outcome. That is 6 times more than China and our population is far smaller. Expectation management or grim reality?

    I wouldn't use China as a benchmark in this at all.

    i) You really can't believe their numbers

    ii) They used measures that I think Western Liberal countries will not undertake.
    I am very sceptical about the number of cases being reported in China,.

    Being the cause of this outbreak has been a major blow to their international presitge and I believe the figures are being massaged to save face and tell the world how brilliant they have been at sorting it out.

    Did any other country try to conceal the virus in the first place and silence doctors and journalists that reported it?
    The World Health Organisation seem to believe them. They had one fresh case declared today.
    But it is clear no other western government does.
    I cannot reconcile the UK, and other countries, belief in an iceberg of asymptomatic cases with what has happened in China. It took about 2 months from the first case to the start of serious action by the Chinese government. Did they really do such a great job of contact tracing that they suppressed the outbreak to basically nothing so quickly? China is a vast country with a huge population, with a lot of movement around their New Year, and yet there was apparently nothing like the spread in China that has been seen outside of China.

    I'm not claiming any particular insight, or alleging anything underhand, but I do find the difference between inside and outside China very puzzling.
    It appears now to go back to start of November (at least). That is when documents leaked government documents now state the first identified case.

    So 3 months of totally unrestricted transmission in a densely packed city of 11 million people.

    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3074991/coronavirus-chinas-first-confirmed-covid-19-case-traced-back
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    edited March 2020

    Does anyone know what "London Lockdown" is likely to really mean. Is it likely for instance to prohibit drivers from entering and/or leaving the Capital? ... That really would be draconian and ultra-depressing.

    Such things do ultimately require consent. 100,000 met coppers can’t control 7m Londoners otherwise. I’m guessing compulsory closure of pubs etc, and maybe control of main stations? Basically reduce the reasons to leave the house and make it an arse to leave London.
  • Foxy said:

    OllyT said:

    Foxy said:

    OllyT said:

    3 things.
    1. I think the Government and BJ are getting much better I would go as far as to say the PM was very good today.
    2 Why is our death rate still so high compared to others at 4%? Germany incredibly low but even compared to France the USA and many others we are very high I dont really know why.

    3 We seem to think 20000 deaths is a good outcome. That is 6 times more than China and our population is far smaller. Expectation management or grim reality?

    I wouldn't use China as a benchmark in this at all.

    i) You really can't believe their numbers

    ii) They used measures that I think Western Liberal countries will not undertake.
    I am very sceptical about the number of cases being reported in China,.

    Being the cause of this outbreak has been a major blow to their international presitge and I believe the figures are being massaged to save face and tell the world how brilliant they have been at sorting it out.

    Did any other country try to conceal the virus in the first place and silence doctors and journalists that reported it?
    The World Health Organisation seem to believe them. They had one fresh case declared today.
    Do you believe that in a country with the population of China there has been only 1 new case today? What choice do the WHO have but to accept the figures they come up with? If they were playing it with a straight bat why go to such lengths to cover it up to start with.

    I hope their figures are correct but I wouldn't bet the house on it. This raged in Hubai province since end of January and we are supposed to believe that there will shortly have been more deaths in Italy in the last fortnight than during the whole outbreak in China.
    It does seem peculiar, but after an initial bad start, the Chinese have been fairly open.

    The daily case numbers have also dropped dramatically in South Korea and have done so now over an extended period. Perhaps European governments should concentrate more on what they are doing right and which we and others are clearly not.
This discussion has been closed.