Whatever happens and however long it takes, global attitudes to globalisation are going to change. China is the engine and poster boy of the globalised economy, and apparently the starting point of the outbreak.
I am not so sure. In a year or so's time normality will be restored. Indeed the lesson we may learn from this is how interconnected we are and the importance of transnational institutions proven.
Never mind England has its sovereignty back and can wave those blue passports at all those silly transnational institutions who think they know better than the Brits.
It would be interesting to try to guess how many governments and regimes around the world will be toppled by this.
Several, I would imagine, and I would not rule out the one here in the UK.
Not if they carry on in this shitshow fashion.
There is NO strategy Gideon.
It's not rocket fucking science. We should swallow our pride, listen to our betters i.e. the Chinese, South Koreans and Japanese and enact stringent measures. Obvs it's far too late but we should have closed all borders to everyone then isolated and contained, including banning all public gatherings, whilst issuing massive public health advice.
It's a shitshow and the last vestiges of defence on here are from those who dismissed Eadric's 100% accurate warnings.
I will take a bet with anyone that we will come out of this in 2-3 yrs time with one of the worst records in terms of spread and overall mortality of any developed country.
You are talking gibberish.
Do you want to follow South Korea? Or do you want to close borders and ban public gatherings?
Because South Korea are encouraging open but tested borders, no lockdowns and open and busy restaurants and public transport. What they have done differently is mass and quick testing.
They are opposite strategies, supporting both makes no sense.
No less effective than going off to church. Indeed I guess the tiny tiny chance that the urine might contain some vital protective element makes it a better bet than singing ‘for those in peril on the sea,
It could be less effective thn going to church if cow's urine has harmful chemicals. There is almost certainly an evolutionary reason why we drink milk and eat meat from animals but do not drink their urine. It is easier to harvest urine and much more of it about than milk.
Edit to say, that I dont believe more than a few Hundus have tried this.
Its amusing watching people lose what's left of their minds on here.
The idea any PM, let alone a Tory PM - or the CSO or CMO are hatching a plan to kill off their elderly voters is the most bonkers thing ever.
Thinking they give a hoot for elderly is the lunatic thing, the PM wants to come out a hero and that is his only concern , your granny popping her clogs will be of no concern to him.
Good idea for you to self-isolate if this is the only garbage you can come up with.
Its amusing watching people lose what's left of their minds on here.
The idea any PM, let alone a Tory PM - or the CSO or CMO are hatching a plan to kill off their elderly voters is the most bonkers thing ever.
Thinking they give a hoot for elderly is the lunatic thing, the PM wants to come out a hero and that is his only concern , your granny popping her clogs will be of no concern to him.
Not true! I suspect Boris' primary concern is self-preservation and secondly coming out the other end a hero.
Does anyone know why the total number of cases in Japan almost halved on Friday? And I do mean total not active cases. Yesterday I though it was a blip but it has persisted through to cases for th 14th.
I think it's just noise, from memory it was like a few days around 50 then like 20 then close to 70. If you click through to the live patient database on here a lot of these cases are found in clusters (sometimes families). If you think of it as a randomish number around 10 clusters it would be normal to sometimes see 5 and sometimes see 15 without the underlying trend changing.
The underlying change I think you can see is that the number of cases was trending up until a week ago, which was about 2 weeks after the current response started, then went flat. These last few days we've had a bunch of cases of new arrivals from Europe, so it may go up a bit even if community transmission is staying flat or dropping.
Its amusing watching people lose what's left of their minds on here.
The idea any PM, let alone a Tory PM - or the CSO or CMO are hatching a plan to kill off their elderly voters is the most bonkers thing ever.
Thinking they give a hoot for elderly is the lunatic thing, the PM wants to come out a hero and that is his only concern , your granny popping her clogs will be of no concern to him.
Good idea for you to self-isolate if this is the only garbage you can come up with.
Feck off you absolute bell end scumbag. I am self isolating already through necessity and don't need the scum of life posting crap to me. Typical little Englander who would want free speech banned.
Whatever happens and however long it takes, global attitudes to globalisation are going to change. China is the engine and poster boy of the globalised economy, and apparently the starting point of the outbreak.
I am not so sure. In a year or so's time normality will be restored. Indeed the lesson we may learn from this is how interconnected we are and the importance of transnational institutions proven.
Transnational instititutions are more important than ever - as proven by the fact that we haven't been able to properly co-ordinate response to climate change, or address the problem of ever more mobile capital that undermines attempts to raise labour or environmental standards ; but I think the greater scepticism might be more towards globalised economics than transnational institutions.
Both your and Foxy’s comments direct toward a 1945-style shift in politics towards the left, as I was floating earlier.
An interesting idea that I personally certainly would welcome a lot, but it does have to be said that the most recent crisis in 2008 precipitated a shift to the right, when many predicted a shift to the left.
There is something different here though, and it's over the role of national government and public infrastructure compared to unimpeded or apparently random global events. Even the more visible stimulus package in the US was nothing compared to the visibility of activist medical role governments are having to take here, instead of apparently funnelling money to pension funds and banks. As you say, this could mark a shift to a more social democratic outlook, particularly in places like the US, but, particularly if places like China are perceived to do better, it could also potentially mark a greater tolerance of authoritarianism.
I agree. The flaws in the 2008 argument were that the left didn’t have any coherent alternative to offer (and were often in office), even when the right hit upon austerity as the corrective, and that during a time of financial crisis people do tend to look toward the right.
This time it’s a health and social crisis (with the economy as a consequence). History suggests the reverse, especially with Trump as a visible totem of where the conservative mindset can leave you. Boosting socialised healthcare is one of the left’s key platforms
Alternatively, and to play devil’s advocate to some extent, the crisis could show up the weaknesses of the socialised NHS, against a more decentralised system such as that in Germany. We genuinely don’t know how it will play out, but have to hope (and pray) that there are minimal casualties under everyone’s healthcare system.
Its amusing watching people lose what's left of their minds on here.
The idea any PM, let alone a Tory PM - or the CSO or CMO are hatching a plan to kill off their elderly voters is the most bonkers thing ever.
Thinking they give a hoot for elderly is the lunatic thing, the PM wants to come out a hero and that is his only concern , your granny popping her clogs will be of no concern to him.
You ascribe a peculiar callousness to politicians that I can only put down to your being solely exposed to them north of the border, malcy.
Sort of on topic, Sadiq Khan is one of the few politicians with means, motive and opportunity to do something other than follow government advice on a large scale: banning large public gatherings in London, say, or asking people with symptoms not to use the Tube.
He has not done so. Neither has Andy Burnham in Manchester (at least as far as I know). He is supporting the government line to the letter, whilst challenging them where practical (eg supporting calls for mortgage holidays for those affected). Even Nicola Sturgeon has only strayed minorly from the official advice.
It's a bit strange that there is apparently so much outcry over the government's handling of the crisis, yet everyone in a position to gain from opposing it is choosing not to.
Mr. Sandpit, must disagree with that. If there's seen to be any shortfall in healthcare provision there is a zero percent chance that the national religion of the NHS will get the blame, it'll attach itself to politicians, primarily the PM.
Mr. G, hope you and yours come through this ok. Must disagree on the lack concern for the elderly, though.
Its amusing watching people lose what's left of their minds on here.
The idea any PM, let alone a Tory PM - or the CSO or CMO are hatching a plan to kill off their elderly voters is the most bonkers thing ever.
Thinking they give a hoot for elderly is the lunatic thing, the PM wants to come out a hero and that is his only concern , your granny popping her clogs will be of no concern to him.
But with respect to Granny if Coronavirus doesn't do her in there's a good chance any number of other things will - and does. Old people die, especially in winter. Yes I am worried about my frail sick parents. But no more so than normal as they get to the start of every winter joking that it could be their last.
The idea that the PM is going to be responsible for old people dying of this is absurd, even if the strategy is to accept that a decent proportion of them were going to die of something else anyway so what does it matter if its Covid19 that finishes them off instead of normal flu or pneumonia or old age or all the other things that kill "your granny" in their tens of thousands every year.
Totally agree , my comment was on the sad fools that believe their great leader gives a hoot whether they or their elderly relatives die, he is doing what he thinks will bring him Kudos and re-election, nothing more. We know he is a serial liar and anyone with any sense will take any crap from him or his cohorts with a very large pinch of salt and try to educate themselves from all the material available from her and abroad and look after their families as best as they can and NOT trust anything these clowns say.
Its amusing watching people lose what's left of their minds on here.
The idea any PM, let alone a Tory PM - or the CSO or CMO are hatching a plan to kill off their elderly voters is the most bonkers thing ever.
Thinking they give a hoot for elderly is the lunatic thing, the PM wants to come out a hero and that is his only concern , your granny popping her clogs will be of no concern to him.
You ascribe a peculiar callousness to politicians that I can only put down to your being solely exposed to them north of the border, malcy.
We have a kinder, gentler politics down here.
Not in Labour voting Exeter, if I am recalling correctly one of your posts from earlier in the week.
Its amusing watching people lose what's left of their minds on here.
The idea any PM, let alone a Tory PM - or the CSO or CMO are hatching a plan to kill off their elderly voters is the most bonkers thing ever.
Thinking they give a hoot for elderly is the lunatic thing, the PM wants to come out a hero and that is his only concern , your granny popping her clogs will be of no concern to him.
You ascribe a peculiar callousness to politicians that I can only put down to your being solely exposed to them north of the border, malcy.
Sort of on topic, Sadiq Khan is one of the few politicians with means, motive and opportunity to do something other than follow government advice on a large scale: banning large public gatherings in London, say, or asking people with symptoms not to use the Tube.
He has not done so. Neither has Andy Burnham in Manchester (at least as far as I know). He is supporting the government line to the letter, whilst challenging them where practical (eg supporting calls for mortgage holidays for those affected). Even Nicola Sturgeon has only strayed minorly from the official advice.
It's a bit strange that there is apparently so much outcry over the government's handling of the crisis, yet everyone in a position to gain from opposing it is choosing not to.
Khan is cruising towards reelection, why go out on a limb?
Its amusing watching people lose what's left of their minds on here.
The idea any PM, let alone a Tory PM - or the CSO or CMO are hatching a plan to kill off their elderly voters is the most bonkers thing ever.
Thinking they give a hoot for elderly is the lunatic thing, the PM wants to come out a hero and that is his only concern , your granny popping her clogs will be of no concern to him.
You ascribe a peculiar callousness to politicians that I can only put down to your being solely exposed to them north of the border, malcy.
We have a kinder, gentler politics down here.
Not in Labour voting Exeter, if I am recalling correctly one of your posts from earlier in the week.
Does anyone know why the total number of cases in Japan almost halved on Friday? And I do mean total not active cases. Yesterday I though it was a blip but it has persisted through to cases for th 14th.
Proposition:
The number of official active cases in Japan is proportional to the number of days till it's definitely too late to make a call on whether the Olympics goes ahead as scheduled.
Whatever happens and however long it takes, global attitudes to globalisation are going to change. China is the engine and poster boy of the globalised economy, and apparently the starting point of the outbreak.
I am not so sure. In a year or so's time normality will be restored. Indeed the lesson we may learn from this is how interconnected we are and the importance of transnational institutions proven.
Transnational instititutions are more important than ever - as proven by the fact that we haven't been able to properly co-ordinate response to climate change, or address the problem of ever more mobile capital that undermines attempts to raise labour or environmental standards ; but I think the greater scepticism might be more towards globalised economics than transnational institutions.
Both your and Foxy’s comments direct toward a 1945-style shift in politics towards the left, as I was floating earlier.
An interesting idea that I personally certainly would welcome a lot, but it does have to be said that the most recent crisis in 2008 precipitated a shift to the right, when many predicted a shift to the left.
There is something different here though, and it's over the role of national government and public infrastructure compared to unimpeded or apparently random global events. Even the more visible stimulus package in the US was nothing compared to the visibility of activist medical role governments are having to take here, instead of apparently funnelling money to pension funds and banks. As you say, this could mark a shift to a more social democratic outlook, particularly in places like the US, but, particularly if places like China are perceived to do better, it could also potentially mark a greater tolerance of authoritarianism.
I agree. The flaws in the 2008 argument were that the left didn’t have any coherent alternative to offer (and were often in office), even when the right hit upon austerity as the corrective, and that during a time of financial crisis people do tend to look toward the right.
This time it’s a health and social crisis (with the economy as a consequence). History suggests the reverse, especially with Trump as a visible totem of where the conservative mindset can leave you. Boosting socialised healthcare is one of the left’s key platforms
Alternatively, and to play devil’s advocate to some extent, the crisis could show up the weaknesses of the socialised NHS, against a more decentralised system such as that in Germany. We genuinely don’t know how it will play out, but have to hope (and pray) that there are minimal casualties under everyone’s healthcare system.
On hoping everyone emerges from it well, indeed I agree. On comparison of healthcare systems, though, this is also relative. In the U.S, for instance, many would still - or might have, up till now - perceive the German system as akin to Bolshevism.
Its amusing watching people lose what's left of their minds on here.
The idea any PM, let alone a Tory PM - or the CSO or CMO are hatching a plan to kill off their elderly voters is the most bonkers thing ever.
Thinking they give a hoot for elderly is the lunatic thing, the PM wants to come out a hero and that is his only concern , your granny popping her clogs will be of no concern to him.
This virus malarkey is making the days of PB's Brexit "debates" look like considered, rational and polite discussions.
Quite.
I also await with interest the explanation of why it is that the leaders of the Scottish and Welsh Governments (respectively, the leader of a separatist movement that wants to abolish the UK and a Corbynite socialist, both of whom regard the Tories as their primary political enemies, and are willing under any other circumstances to accuse Conservatives of all the evils under the Sun,) are acting in complete lockstep with the supposed granny holocaust plan.
Why are Sturgeon and Drakeford not screaming the house down and pulling all the devolved policy levers in the opposite direction to that suggested by Boris Johnson? Have they suddenly and mysteriously become extremely thick? Or evil? Or secretly put on their blue velvet robes, genuflected before the Icon of the Sainted Margaret and joined the Tories?
Or could it possibly, conceivably, be the case that the assorted panicking ranters and conspiracy theorists are talking bollocks, and that it's quite simply the case that we have no good options - but that following the advice of medical and scientific professionals appointed specifically to deal with situations like this is the least worst course available?
Besides which, even if we take the most cynical view possible of Johnson (excusable given that (a) he's a politician and (b) his past track record,) why in the name of God would he set out deliberately to cause a reckless and wholly unnecessary mass casualty event amongst the elderly? Age is the single best predictor of voting intention. Codgers are his core vote.
Sort of on topic, Sadiq Khan is one of the few politicians with means, motive and opportunity to do something other than follow government advice on a large scale: banning large public gatherings in London, say, or asking people with symptoms not to use the Tube.
He has not done so. Neither has Andy Burnham in Manchester (at least as far as I know). He is supporting the government line to the letter, whilst challenging them where practical (eg supporting calls for mortgage holidays for those affected). Even Nicola Sturgeon has only strayed minorly from the official advice.
It's a bit strange that there is apparently so much outcry over the government's handling of the crisis, yet everyone in a position to gain from opposing it is choosing not to.
Agree with all your points but re Khan, is he also supporting calls for rental payments to be held back? If not whats special about owners that they get state support when they are wealthier on average than renters?
I have confidence in the CMO and the public health team. I also have confidence that Boris and Cummings will happily ignore people panicking on twitter. That's a major positive to their leadership I think.
I do feel that the govt hasn't communicated its policy that well yet. Partly that's a function of a lack of trust (and to be fair, Boris is well established as a liar).
But I do think they are making decisions in the right way, and hopefully they will turn out to be the right decisions.
Its amusing watching people lose what's left of their minds on here.
The idea any PM, let alone a Tory PM - or the CSO or CMO are hatching a plan to kill off their elderly voters is the most bonkers thing ever.
Thinking they give a hoot for elderly is the lunatic thing, the PM wants to come out a hero and that is his only concern , your granny popping her clogs will be of no concern to him.
Not true! I suspect Boris' primary concern is self-preservation and secondly coming out the other end a hero.
I was close Pete, inference being if he comes out a hero he has self-preserved.
All French ski resorts have just been closed. Not a surprise.
A full refund will be given in the form of a credit against a holiday next year.
Surely they have to give you your money back (not a credit) if they can't fulfill their part of the contract?
Jesus wept Benpointer...we need to give companies a break.....
I had an air trip and car hire in Italy early April...I'm not claiming back....these are businesses that employ people who have mortgages....times have changed
Let's stop being so fucking selfish...hashtag
good luck hoping that , greedy grasping low life's everywhere will be trying to make out of it, big amount of people would stiff you rather than be decent. We will see the mettle of people in this and UK will be found wanting in many cases for sure, the me me me attitude in UK is pretty dire.
Blimey, I'm being accused of being a 'greedy grasping lowlife' for wanting a refund (for our booked and fully paid for transantic QM2 crossing) rather than a 'future cruise credit'.
Anyone know when, if I took the credit, I might be able to use it? Will the parent company Carnival still be solvent? How much is travel insurance to the US going to be next year?
Greedy grasping lowlife I may be too, but I took out an annual travel insurance policy with the AA underwritten by AXA to include disruption. It was still available on Wednesday last week.
Viking are offering 125% credit or a full refund for cancelled cruises. My view is take the cash or pray the Russian credit lines continue unhindered.
I can't afford to lose the value of a 12 grand holiday particularly as my self-employed earning potential is likely to fall through the floor over the coming weeks.
A word of caution on travel insurance... mine says they will pay up if we have to cancel because "the Foreign and Commonwealth Office issue a directive advising against all, or all but essential travel to your trip destination because of an earthquake, fire, flood, or hurricane." No mention of pandemic.
Also @malcolmg - saw your response, that's fine, appreciate your comment wasn't directed at me, apols if I over-reacted.
Some anecdata from the Middle East - Gulf states, not Iran which is screwed.
Make of it what you will, but they’re trying very hard here and failing to discover cases of local infection, close associates of people infected abroad are all testing negative.
The temperature here is in the high 20s at the moment, and almost all indoor spaces are air conditioned.
Encouraging! Lets hope for a hot summer, although that does bring in play the double whammy of flu and coronavirus hitting deep in the winter. Imagine it will be harder for govts to re-introduce necessary measures then if the spring/summer does indeed limit the damage we see in the next few months.
Still trying to find out at what temperature the virus starts to die off. It’s been around 20-24 max here for three weeks. It does look as though the spread is slower on the coast although not true for Catalonia
Sort of on topic, Sadiq Khan is one of the few politicians with means, motive and opportunity to do something other than follow government advice on a large scale: banning large public gatherings in London, say, or asking people with symptoms not to use the Tube.
He has not done so. Neither has Andy Burnham in Manchester (at least as far as I know). He is supporting the government line to the letter, whilst challenging them where practical (eg supporting calls for mortgage holidays for those affected). Even Nicola Sturgeon has only strayed minorly from the official advice.
It's a bit strange that there is apparently so much outcry over the government's handling of the crisis, yet everyone in a position to gain from opposing it is choosing not to.
Khan is cruising towards reelection, why go out on a limb?
Because he wants to follow the career trajectory of his predecessor, who also needed to "go out on a limb" on a major policy call to get himself into Downing Street?
Alternatively, just because he thinks it's the right thing to do in general, rather than a politically smart call?
Its amusing watching people lose what's left of their minds on here.
The idea any PM, let alone a Tory PM - or the CSO or CMO are hatching a plan to kill off their elderly voters is the most bonkers thing ever.
Thinking they give a hoot for elderly is the lunatic thing, the PM wants to come out a hero and that is his only concern , your granny popping her clogs will be of no concern to him.
But with respect to Granny if Coronavirus doesn't do her in there's a good chance any number of other things will - and does. Old people die, especially in winter. Yes I am worried about my frail sick parents. But no more so than normal as they get to the start of every winter joking that it could be their last.
The idea that the PM is going to be responsible for old people dying of this is absurd, even if the strategy is to accept that a decent proportion of them were going to die of something else anyway so what does it matter if its Covid19 that finishes them off instead of normal flu or pneumonia or old age or all the other things that kill "your granny" in their tens of thousands every year.
Totally agree , my comment was on the sad fools that believe their great leader gives a hoot whether they or their elderly relatives die, he is doing what he thinks will bring him Kudos and re-election, nothing more. We know he is a serial liar and anyone with any sense will take any crap from him or his cohorts with a very large pinch of salt and try to educate themselves from all the material available from her and abroad and look after their families as best as they can and NOT trust anything these clowns say.
You can throw any epithet you like at Johnson and almost all will be true. Serial liar / womaniser / clown etc etc. So what. He is the elected Prime Minister of this country. In any election you always get the correct result, and in the last election we had a choice between Shagger and Jezbollah - I am glad Boris Johnson is PM and not Jeremy Corbyn.
Johnson is not *deliberately* targeting the elderly which I infer is what you are suggesting - that is nonsense. It is the virus which deliberately targets them, the job of the officials is to find the best way through this where 50k deaths of mainly elderly people many of whom would have died of something else anyway doesn't become 500k deaths in a country left traumatised and economically broken.
For all the gags and the barbs these are real breathing human beings sat in Downing Street and the Department for Health working through the models as to what the acceptable death toll will be. People Are Going To Die. Sorry if that offends you.
All French ski resorts have just been closed. Not a surprise.
A full refund will be given in the form of a credit against a holiday next year.
Surely they have to give you your money back (not a credit) if they can't fulfill their part of the contract?
Jesus wept Benpointer...we need to give companies a break.....
I had an air trip and car hire in Italy early April...I'm not claiming back....these are businesses that employ people who have mortgages....times have changed
Let's stop being so fucking selfish...hashtag
good luck hoping that , greedy grasping low life's everywhere will be trying to make out of it, big amount of people would stiff you rather than be decent. We will see the mettle of people in this and UK will be found wanting in many cases for sure, the me me me attitude in UK is pretty dire.
Blimey, I'm being accused of being a 'greedy grasping lowlife' for wanting a refund (for our booked and fully paid for transantic QM2 crossing) rather than a 'future cruise credit'.
Anyone know when, if I took the credit, I might be able to use it? Will the parent company Carnival still be solvent? How much is travel insurance to the US going to be next year?
Greedy grasping lowlife I may be too, but I took out an annual travel insurance policy with the AA underwritten by AXA to include disruption. It was still available on Wednesday last week.
Viking are offering 125% credit or a full refund for cancelled cruises. My view is take the cash or pray the Russian credit lines continue unhindered.
I can't afford to lose the value of a 12 grand holiday particularly as my self-employed earning potential is likely to fall through the floor over the coming weeks.
A word of caution on travel insurance... mine says they will pay up if we have to cancel because "the Foreign and Commonwealth Office issue a directive advising against all, or all but essential travel to your trip destination because of an earthquake, fire, flood, or hurricane." No mention of pandemic.
Also @malcolmg - saw your response, that's fine, appreciate your comment wasn't directed at me, apols if I over-reacted.
Its amusing watching people lose what's left of their minds on here.
The idea any PM, let alone a Tory PM - or the CSO or CMO are hatching a plan to kill off their elderly voters is the most bonkers thing ever.
Thinking they give a hoot for elderly is the lunatic thing, the PM wants to come out a hero and that is his only concern , your granny popping her clogs will be of no concern to him.
You ascribe a peculiar callousness to politicians that I can only put down to your being solely exposed to them north of the border, malcy.
We have a kinder, gentler politics down here.
Mark, afraid not, it is being under the yoke of those southern politicians and their lickspittle sockpuppets up here that has given me such a jaundiced view of politicians
Sort of on topic, Sadiq Khan is one of the few politicians with means, motive and opportunity to do something other than follow government advice on a large scale: banning large public gatherings in London, say, or asking people with symptoms not to use the Tube.
He has not done so. Neither has Andy Burnham in Manchester (at least as far as I know). He is supporting the government line to the letter, whilst challenging them where practical (eg supporting calls for mortgage holidays for those affected). Even Nicola Sturgeon has only strayed minorly from the official advice.
It's a bit strange that there is apparently so much outcry over the government's handling of the crisis, yet everyone in a position to gain from opposing it is choosing not to.
Agree with all your points but re Khan, is he also supporting calls for rental payments to be held back? If not whats special about owners that they get state support when they are wealthier on average than renters?
Yes - rent deferrals and mortgage holidays (I excluded the former for brevity).
Either way, it seems Khan's supporting a Corbyn initiative, rather than leading one himself.
Sort of on topic, Sadiq Khan is one of the few politicians with means, motive and opportunity to do something other than follow government advice on a large scale: banning large public gatherings in London, say, or asking people with symptoms not to use the Tube.
He has not done so. Neither has Andy Burnham in Manchester (at least as far as I know). He is supporting the government line to the letter, whilst challenging them where practical (eg supporting calls for mortgage holidays for those affected). Even Nicola Sturgeon has only strayed minorly from the official advice.
It's a bit strange that there is apparently so much outcry over the government's handling of the crisis, yet everyone in a position to gain from opposing it is choosing not to.
Agree with all your points but re Khan, is he also supporting calls for rental payments to be held back? If not whats special about owners that they get state support when they are wealthier on average than renters?
Yes - rent deferrals and mortgage holidays (I excluded the former for brevity).
Either way, it seems Khan's supporting a Corbyn initiative, rather than leading one himself.
It would be interesting to try to guess how many governments and regimes around the world will be toppled by this.
Several, I would imagine, and I would not rule out the one here in the UK.
Not if they carry on in this shitshow fashion.
There is NO strategy Gideon.
It's not rocket fucking science. We should swallow our pride, listen to our betters i.e. the Chinese, South Koreans and Japanese and enact stringent measures. Obvs it's far too late but we should have closed all borders to everyone then isolated and contained, including banning all public gatherings, whilst issuing massive public health advice.
It's a shitshow and the last vestiges of defence on here are from those who dismissed Eadric's 100% accurate warnings.
I will take a bet with anyone that we will come out of this in 2-3 yrs time with one of the worst records in terms of spread and overall mortality of any developed country.
"listen to our betters"
That seems to be something of a mindset issue.
I am not an epidemiologist, although I know a few. We simply have to trust that the government is doing the right thing from the perspective of public health. They really are not trying to anything that the wilder conspiracy theorists suggest.
As individuals it, of course, makes sense to consider whether to apply a stricter regime on yourself and your family
Sort of on topic, Sadiq Khan is one of the few politicians with means, motive and opportunity to do something other than follow government advice on a large scale: banning large public gatherings in London, say, or asking people with symptoms not to use the Tube.
He has not done so. Neither has Andy Burnham in Manchester (at least as far as I know). He is supporting the government line to the letter, whilst challenging them where practical (eg supporting calls for mortgage holidays for those affected). Even Nicola Sturgeon has only strayed minorly from the official advice.
It's a bit strange that there is apparently so much outcry over the government's handling of the crisis, yet everyone in a position to gain from opposing it is choosing not to.
Khan is cruising towards reelection, why go out on a limb?
Because he wants to follow the career trajectory of his predecessor, who also needed to "go out on a limb" on a major policy call to get himself into Downing Street?
Alternatively, just because he thinks it's the right thing to do in general, rather than a politically smart call?
If he plays it safe he's got another term, he can position for the leadership later.
Its amusing watching people lose what's left of their minds on here.
The idea any PM, let alone a Tory PM - or the CSO or CMO are hatching a plan to kill off their elderly voters is the most bonkers thing ever.
Thinking they give a hoot for elderly is the lunatic thing, the PM wants to come out a hero and that is his only concern , your granny popping her clogs will be of no concern to him.
But with respect to Granny if Coronavirus doesn't do her in there's a good chance any number of other things will - and does. Old people die, especially in winter. Yes I am worried about my frail sick parents. But no more so than normal as they get to the start of every winter joking that it could be their last.
The idea that the PM is going to be responsible for old people dying of this is absurd, even if the strategy is to accept that a decent proportion of them were going to die of something else anyway so what does it matter if its Covid19 that finishes them off instead of normal flu or pneumonia or old age or all the other things that kill "your granny" in their tens of thousands every year.
Totally agree , my comment was on the sad fools that believe their great leader gives a hoot whether they or their elderly relatives die, he is doing what he thinks will bring him Kudos and re-election, nothing more. We know he is a serial liar and anyone with any sense will take any crap from him or his cohorts with a very large pinch of salt and try to educate themselves from all the material available from her and abroad and look after their families as best as they can and NOT trust anything these clowns say.
You can throw any epithet you like at Johnson and almost all will be true. Serial liar / womaniser / clown etc etc. So what. He is the elected Prime Minister of this country. In any election you always get the correct result, and in the last election we had a choice between Shagger and Jezbollah - I am glad Boris Johnson is PM and not Jeremy Corbyn.
Johnson is not *deliberately* targeting the elderly which I infer is what you are suggesting - that is nonsense. It is the virus which deliberately targets them, the job of the officials is to find the best way through this where 50k deaths of mainly elderly people many of whom would have died of something else anyway doesn't become 500k deaths in a country left traumatised and economically broken.
For all the gags and the barbs these are real breathing human beings sat in Downing Street and the Department for Health working through the models as to what the acceptable death toll will be. People Are Going To Die. Sorry if that offends you.
Its amusing watching people lose what's left of their minds on here.
The idea any PM, let alone a Tory PM - or the CSO or CMO are hatching a plan to kill off their elderly voters is the most bonkers thing ever.
Thinking they give a hoot for elderly is the lunatic thing, the PM wants to come out a hero and that is his only concern , your granny popping her clogs will be of no concern to him.
You ascribe a peculiar callousness to politicians that I can only put down to your being solely exposed to them north of the border, malcy.
We have a kinder, gentler politics down here.
Mark, afraid not, it is being under the yoke of those southern politicians and their lickspittle sockpuppets up here that has given me such a jaundiced view of politicians
Just as long as you regularly wash your hands between your bouts of bigotry malc all will be well.
Some anecdata from the Middle East - Gulf states, not Iran which is screwed.
Make of it what you will, but they’re trying very hard here and failing to discover cases of local infection, close associates of people infected abroad are all testing negative.
The temperature here is in the high 20s at the moment, and almost all indoor spaces are air conditioned.
Encouraging! Lets hope for a hot summer, although that does bring in play the double whammy of flu and coronavirus hitting deep in the winter. Imagine it will be harder for govts to re-introduce necessary measures then if the spring/summer does indeed limit the damage we see in the next few months.
Still trying to find out at what temperature the virus starts to die off. It’s been around 20-24 max here for three weeks. It does look as though the spread is slower on the coast although not true for Catalonia
Presumably it is still too confused a picture, with the exodus from Madrid?
The expectation re sport seems to be centred around things possibly resuming in the summer, and what games to play then, can we finish the season etc. However, if the big concern is the winter NHS resource levels then realistically is professional sport over until spring 2021?
With every other election now postponed by 12 months surely the Labour Party have to follow suit and cancel its own internal election. In these times of Crisis people need Continuity. The same reassuring faces on the TV telling them things they need to know in a calm and dignified manner.
It is therefore critical that we continue to hear from Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Butler, Burgon, Mad Len etc. It would be inappropriate of Labour to continue this election when all others are cancelled. Besides which, I'm sure the pre-recorded RLB victory speech will still sound Fresh and Relevant in which ever year it gets broadcast.
Its amusing watching people lose what's left of their minds on here.
The idea any PM, let alone a Tory PM - or the CSO or CMO are hatching a plan to kill off their elderly voters is the most bonkers thing ever.
Thinking they give a hoot for elderly is the lunatic thing, the PM wants to come out a hero and that is his only concern , your granny popping her clogs will be of no concern to him.
You ascribe a peculiar callousness to politicians that I can only put down to your being solely exposed to them north of the border, malcy.
We have a kinder, gentler politics down here.
Mark, afraid not, it is being under the yoke of those southern politicians and their lickspittle sockpuppets up here that has given me such a jaundiced view of politicians
Given the sweeping nature of that, perhaps you don't like politics, rather than don't like politicians?
The virus isn't trying to hurt anybody, it's just trying to make it through the day and start a family. It's not its fault that its ancestors had to get tough to live in a bat but our lungs are all weak and un-bat-like.
Its amusing watching people lose what's left of their minds on here.
The idea any PM, let alone a Tory PM - or the CSO or CMO are hatching a plan to kill off their elderly voters is the most bonkers thing ever.
Thinking they give a hoot for elderly is the lunatic thing, the PM wants to come out a hero and that is his only concern , your granny popping her clogs will be of no concern to him.
You ascribe a peculiar callousness to politicians that I can only put down to your being solely exposed to them north of the border, malcy.
We have a kinder, gentler politics down here.
Mark, afraid not, it is being under the yoke of those southern politicians and their lickspittle sockpuppets up here that has given me such a jaundiced view of politicians
Just as long as you regularly wash your hands between your bouts of bigotry malc all will be well.
Its amusing watching people lose what's left of their minds on here.
The idea any PM, let alone a Tory PM - or the CSO or CMO are hatching a plan to kill off their elderly voters is the most bonkers thing ever.
Thinking they give a hoot for elderly is the lunatic thing, the PM wants to come out a hero and that is his only concern , your granny popping her clogs will be of no concern to him.
But with respect to Granny if Coronavirus doesn't do her in there's a good chance any number of other things will - and does. Old people die, especially in winter. Yes I am worried about my frail sick parents. But no more so than normal as they get to the start of every winter joking that it could be their last.
The idea that the PM is going to be responsible for old people dying of this is absurd, even if the strategy is to accept that a decent proportion of them were going to die of something else anyway so what does it matter if its Covid19 that finishes them off instead of normal flu or pneumonia or old age or all the other things that kill "your granny" in their tens of thousands every year.
Totally agree , my comment was on the sad fools that believe their great leader gives a hoot whether they or their elderly relatives die, he is doing what he thinks will bring him Kudos and re-election, nothing more. We know he is a serial liar and anyone with any sense will take any crap from him or his cohorts with a very large pinch of salt and try to educate themselves from all the material available from her and abroad and look after their families as best as they can and NOT trust anything these clowns say.
You can throw any epithet you like at Johnson and almost all will be true. Serial liar / womaniser / clown etc etc. So what. He is the elected Prime Minister of this country. In any election you always get the correct result, and in the last election we had a choice between Shagger and Jezbollah - I am glad Boris Johnson is PM and not Jeremy Corbyn.
Johnson is not *deliberately* targeting the elderly which I infer is what you are suggesting - that is nonsense. It is the virus which deliberately targets them, the job of the officials is to find the best way through this where 50k deaths of mainly elderly people many of whom would have died of something else anyway doesn't become 500k deaths in a country left traumatised and economically broken.
For all the gags and the barbs these are real breathing human beings sat in Downing Street and the Department for Health working through the models as to what the acceptable death toll will be. People Are Going To Die. Sorry if that offends you.
I am not inferring that at all , I merely stated that fools who thought he cared a jot for them or their relatives were stupid. Given his and previous lying politicians, experts etc , do you dare to argue that point. Every body knows people will die but for morons to pretend Boris cares about them is really really stupid.
Interesting the opposition response to government actions is to be predominantly supportive, no one calling for a herd immunity approach and what criticism there is is directed at having allowed the mass women’s day marches last Sunday. Felix may have seen different responses so interested in his opinion.
Its amusing watching people lose what's left of their minds on here.
The idea any PM, let alone a Tory PM - or the CSO or CMO are hatching a plan to kill off their elderly voters is the most bonkers thing ever.
Thinking they give a hoot for elderly is the lunatic thing, the PM wants to come out a hero and that is his only concern , your granny popping her clogs will be of no concern to him.
You ascribe a peculiar callousness to politicians that I can only put down to your being solely exposed to them north of the border, malcy.
We have a kinder, gentler politics down here.
Mark, afraid not, it is being under the yoke of those southern politicians and their lickspittle sockpuppets up here that has given me such a jaundiced view of politicians
Just as long as you regularly wash your hands between your bouts of bigotry malc all will be well.
LOL Harry, were you playing a tune on your flute when you posted that.
The virus isn't trying to hurt anybody, it's just trying to make it through the day and start a family. It's not its fault that its ancestors had to get tough to live in a bat but our lungs are all weak and un-bat-like.
More than that, the virus isn't even capable of trying. It just is.
It's a random consequence of evolution, itself a concept so utterly bizarre it could only have occured by accident.
With every other election now postponed by 12 months surely the Labour Party have to follow suit and cancel its own internal election. In these times of Crisis people need Continuity. The same reassuring faces on the TV telling them things they need to know in a calm and dignified manner.
It is therefore critical that we continue to hear from Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Butler, Burgon, Mad Len etc. It would be inappropriate of Labour to continue this election when all others are cancelled. Besides which, I'm sure the pre-recorded RLB victory speech will still sound Fresh and Relevant in which ever year it gets broadcast.
Sort of on topic, Sadiq Khan is one of the few politicians with means, motive and opportunity to do something other than follow government advice on a large scale: banning large public gatherings in London, say, or asking people with symptoms not to use the Tube.
He has not done so. Neither has Andy Burnham in Manchester (at least as far as I know). He is supporting the government line to the letter, whilst challenging them where practical (eg supporting calls for mortgage holidays for those affected). Even Nicola Sturgeon has only strayed minorly from the official advice.
It's a bit strange that there is apparently so much outcry over the government's handling of the crisis, yet everyone in a position to gain from opposing it is choosing not to.
Khan is cruising towards reelection, why go out on a limb?
Because he wants to follow the career trajectory of his predecessor, who also needed to "go out on a limb" on a major policy call to get himself into Downing Street?
Alternatively, just because he thinks it's the right thing to do in general, rather than a politically smart call?
If he plays it safe he's got another term, he can position for the leadership later.
Once his second term finishes he'll be roughly the same age Johnson is now, and (unlike our cousins across the Pond) our preference seems to be moving in the direction of younger leaders. But I take your point that the strategy is not without (potentially unnecessary) risk.
The expectation re sport seems to be centred around things possibly resuming in the summer, and what games to play then, can we finish the season etc. However, if the big concern is the winter NHS resource levels then realistically is professional sport over until spring 2021?
Winning the Championship yet playing in the Championship the next season would be the most Leeds Utd thing ever.
FPT We had a debate the other day where Rottenborough said that people wouldn't put up with quarantine for more than a couple of weeks, and I said nonchalantly that lots of us could stay at home for months with electronic media, no problem.
The Peaton rumour, if true, will test my theory, as I turned 70 last month, so apparenly I'll be in strict quarantine for 4 months (wow, I can post all day on PB!). I'm up for it - it's a blunt instrument as I'm really in better health than many younger people, but I appreciate the Government can't mess about with individual assessment. I assume some food arrangements will be made - I've got two weeks' supply of dried/frozen food, but haven't want to panic-buy more.
In general the measures that Peston leaks are more in line with other countries, so I'm happy to welcome them in principle. I'm puzzled by the Government's strategy, as some of the restrictions seem different from the "oh well, let's accept it and develop herd immunity gradually" idea. But with luck we'll get more clarity soon. If the idea is that most people develop immunity while oldies at higher risk are safely tucked away, I guess that's defensible.
Many happy returns for last month.
The idea the government is following is this -
1) Isolating the elderly and vulnerable is the only way to slow down them getting it. Slow down. Nothing is perfect - some will get it. 2) To get the best isolation (people keep to the plan etc), you time it so that the Elderly & Vulnerable (E&V) are in their bunkers for the peak. 3) With the higher risk categories mostly protected, the virus will spread (inevitably) through the population. 4) E&V are about 20% of the UK population IIRC. 5) When they emerge from isolation, hopefully we will be on the downslope of the "wave". 6) Many of those round them will now be immune.
All French ski resorts have just been closed. Not a surprise.
A full refund will be given in the form of a credit against a holiday next year.
Surely they have to give you your money back (not a credit) if they can't fulfill their part of the contract?
Jesus wept Benpointer...we need to give companies a break.....
I had an air trip and car hire in Italy early April...I'm not claiming back....these are businesses that employ people who have mortgages....times have changed
Let's stop being so fucking selfish...hashtag
good luck hoping that , greedy grasping low life's everywhere will be trying to make out of it, big amount of people would stiff you rather than be decent. We will see the mettle of people in this and UK will be found wanting in many cases for sure, the me me me attitude in UK is pretty dire.
Blimey, I'm being accused of being a 'greedy grasping lowlife' for wanting a refund (for our booked and fully paid for transantic QM2 crossing) rather than a 'future cruise credit'.
Anyone know when, if I took the credit, I might be able to use it? Will the parent company Carnival still be solvent? How much is travel insurance to the US going to be next year?
Greedy grasping lowlife I may be too, but I took out an annual travel insurance policy with the AA underwritten by AXA to include disruption. It was still available on Wednesday last week.
Viking are offering 125% credit or a full refund for cancelled cruises. My view is take the cash or pray the Russian credit lines continue unhindered.
I can't afford to lose the value of a 12 grand holiday particularly as my self-employed earning potential is likely to fall through the floor over the coming weeks.
A word of caution on travel insurance... mine says they will pay up if we have to cancel because "the Foreign and Commonwealth Office issue a directive advising against all, or all but essential travel to your trip destination because of an earthquake, fire, flood, or hurricane." No mention of pandemic.
Also @malcolmg - saw your response, that's fine, appreciate your comment wasn't directed at me, apols if I over-reacted.
I read a book on the Great Fire of San Francisco last year.
Prior to the fire (1906), the US insurance market was about 50/50 split between German and UK companies. The German companies tried every legal and technical wheeze to avoid paying. The UK companies paid up without question.
In the next decade the market share was 90/10 in favour of the UK companies.
I would be very surprised if any of the mainstream insurance companies tried not to payout on those grounds.
All French ski resorts have just been closed. Not a surprise.
A full refund will be given in the form of a credit against a holiday next year.
Surely they have to give you your money back (not a credit) if they can't fulfill their part of the contract?
Jesus wept Benpointer...we need to give companies a break.....
I had an air trip and car hire in Italy early April...I'm not claiming back....these are businesses that employ people who have mortgages....times have changed
Let's stop being so fucking selfish...hashtag
good luck hoping that , greedy grasping low life's everywhere will be trying to make out of it, big amount of people would stiff you rather than be decent. We will see the mettle of people in this and UK will be found wanting in many cases for sure, the me me me attitude in UK is pretty dire.
Blimey, I'm being accused of being a 'greedy grasping lowlife' for wanting a refund (for our booked and fully paid for transantic QM2 crossing) rather than a 'future cruise credit'.
Anyone know when, if I took the credit, I might be able to use it? Will the parent company Carnival still be solvent? How much is travel insurance to the US going to be next year?
Greedy grasping lowlife I may be too, but I took out an annual travel insurance policy with the AA underwritten by AXA to include disruption. It was still available on Wednesday last week.
Viking are offering 125% credit or a full refund for cancelled cruises. My view is take the cash or pray the Russian credit lines continue unhindered.
I can't afford to lose the value of a 12 grand holiday particularly as my self-employed earning potential is likely to fall through the floor over the coming weeks.
A word of caution on travel insurance... mine says they will pay up if we have to cancel because "the Foreign and Commonwealth Office issue a directive advising against all, or all but essential travel to your trip destination because of an earthquake, fire, flood, or hurricane." No mention of pandemic.
Also @malcolmg - saw your response, that's fine, appreciate your comment wasn't directed at me, apols if I over-reacted.
Ask whether they want you to go, and claim when you get there?
Some anecdata from the Middle East - Gulf states, not Iran which is screwed.
Make of it what you will, but they’re trying very hard here and failing to discover cases of local infection, close associates of people infected abroad are all testing negative.
The temperature here is in the high 20s at the moment, and almost all indoor spaces are air conditioned.
Encouraging! Lets hope for a hot summer, although that does bring in play the double whammy of flu and coronavirus hitting deep in the winter. Imagine it will be harder for govts to re-introduce necessary measures then if the spring/summer does indeed limit the damage we see in the next few months.
Still trying to find out at what temperature the virus starts to die off. It’s been around 20-24 max here for three weeks. It does look as though the spread is slower on the coast although not true for Catalonia
I think I saw 27 degrees somewhere.
But viruses don't like salinity either, so in a hot country next to the ocean is a good place to be
Tbh even as a signed up Remainer Guardianista, I didn't bother reading it.
The roll-out rate of a non-existent vaccine hardly seems very important at the moment. I posted it on here for laughs.
Roy Lilly former NHS manager and often wheeled out commentator and I think at one time an active conservative said on Sky this morning that when it comes to ventilators the US will manufacture for themselves, NZ is the Southern Hemispheres prime supplier and the EU will look after themselves as a direct consequence of the UK no longer being a member. Not wanting to start another brexit debate post the comment purely for info.
Its amusing watching people lose what's left of their minds on here.
The idea any PM, let alone a Tory PM - or the CSO or CMO are hatching a plan to kill off their elderly voters is the most bonkers thing ever.
Thinking they give a hoot for elderly is the lunatic thing, the PM wants to come out a hero and that is his only concern , your granny popping her clogs will be of no concern to him.
I can only imagine your offence if someone suggested the same about the donkeys leading the SNP. Mind you they are *very* busy remembering not having ever met Alex Salmond.
I think that is slightly disingenuous but the graphics of sacrificing a lot of Brits to give us some protection in the winter are difficult.
The government's policy seems to me to be based on the idea that the vast majority with get this virus at some point and it is frankly better if the majority get it in May/June than November/December because the NHS has more spare capacity at that time of the year. Where herd immunity comes in is that the more of us get it then the more of us will be immune (we hope) in November/December making the spread of the virus at that time at least slower with fewer cases arising for an over-pressed NHS. To take a worse case scenario if Covid 19 overlapped with a typical flu season we would be in really serious trouble.
The logic is therefore that although we want to mitigate and slow the spread of the virus (flattening the curve) we don't actually want to take extreme action that defers it for some months.
As I said yesterday this seems a logical response if you have limited optimism about a vaccine or effective treatment evolving this year.
No less effective than going off to church. Indeed I guess the tiny tiny chance that the urine might contain some vital protective element makes it a better bet than singing ‘for those in peril on the sea,
Tbh even as a signed up Remainer Guardianista, I didn't bother reading it.
The roll-out rate of a non-existent vaccine hardly seems very important at the moment. I posted it on here for laughs.
Roy Lilly former NHS manager and often wheeled out commentator and I think at one time an active conservative said on Sky this morning that when it comes to ventilators the US will manufacture for themselves, NZ is the Southern Hemispheres prime supplier and the EU will look after themselves as a direct consequence of the UK no longer being a member. Not wanting to start another brexit debate post the comment purely for info.
In fact, the individual countries inside the EU are looking after themselves. See Germany refusing to share medical supplies, for example.
All French ski resorts have just been closed. Not a surprise.
A full refund will be given in the form of a credit against a holiday next year.
Surely they have to give you your money back (not a credit) if they can't fulfill their part of the contract?
Jesus wept Benpointer...we need to give companies a break.....
I had an air trip and car hire in Italy early April...I'm not claiming back....these are businesses that employ people who have mortgages....times have changed
Let's stop being so fucking selfish...hashtag
good luck hoping that , greedy grasping low life's everywhere will be trying to make out of it, big amount of people would stiff you rather than be decent. We will see the mettle of people in this and UK will be found wanting in many cases for sure, the me me me attitude in UK is pretty dire.
Blimey, I'm being accused of being a 'greedy grasping lowlife' for wanting a refund (for our booked and fully paid for transantic QM2 crossing) rather than a 'future cruise credit'.
Anyone know when, if I took the credit, I might be able to use it? Will the parent company Carnival still be solvent? How much is travel insurance to the US going to be next year?
Greedy grasping lowlife I may be too, but I took out an annual travel insurance policy with the AA underwritten by AXA to include disruption. It was still available on Wednesday last week.
Viking are offering 125% credit or a full refund for cancelled cruises. My view is take the cash or pray the Russian credit lines continue unhindered.
I can't afford to lose the value of a 12 grand holiday particularly as my self-employed earning potential is likely to fall through the floor over the coming weeks.
A word of caution on travel insurance... mine says they will pay up if we have to cancel because "the Foreign and Commonwealth Office issue a directive advising against all, or all but essential travel to your trip destination because of an earthquake, fire, flood, or hurricane." No mention of pandemic.
Also @malcolmg - saw your response, that's fine, appreciate your comment wasn't directed at me, apols if I over-reacted.
Definitely take the cash!
Would you lend money to Carnival for one year at a 25% interest rate right now?
I wouldn't - and you are taking a worse risk as an unsecured creditor
FPT We had a debate the other day where Rottenborough said that people wouldn't put up with quarantine for more than a couple of weeks, and I said nonchalantly that lots of us could stay at home for months with electronic media, no problem.
The Peaton rumour, if true, will test my theory, as I turned 70 last month, so apparenly I'll be in strict quarantine for 4 months (wow, I can post all day on PB!). I'm up for it - it's a blunt instrument as I'm really in better health than many younger people, but I appreciate the Government can't mess about with individual assessment. I assume some food arrangements will be made - I've got two weeks' supply of dried/frozen food, but haven't want to panic-buy more.
In general the measures that Peston leaks are more in line with other countries, so I'm happy to welcome them in principle. I'm puzzled by the Government's strategy, as some of the restrictions seem different from the "oh well, let's accept it and develop herd immunity gradually" idea. But with luck we'll get more clarity soon. If the idea is that most people develop immunity while oldies at higher risk are safely tucked away, I guess that's defensible.
Many happy returns for last month.
The idea the government is following is this -
1) Isolating the elderly and vulnerable is the only way to slow down them getting it. Slow down. Nothing is perfect - some will get it. 2) To get the best isolation (people keep to the plan etc), you time it so that the Elderly & Vulnerable (E&V) are in their bunkers for the peak. 3) With the higher risk categories mostly protected, the virus will spread (inevitably) through the population. 4) E&V are about 20% of the UK population IIRC. 5) When they emerge from isolation, hopefully we will be on the downslope of the "wave". 6) Many of those round them will now be immune.
The piece of the jigsaw that I am not seeing is the testing of those who go down with symptoms. On the working assumption that once you have had the virus but are tested as now negative, that is a valuable resource that can again safely have contact with the E&Vs.
Those who just had a heavy cold/flu may THINK they had Covid-19 - and so think themselves immune. Without testing, that could have grim consequences.
No one under around 80 has lived through anything like what is about to happen. So far today's generations haven't acquitted themselves too well. Flooding social media with demands that the whole country is welded into its own homes and then rushing to buy every last toilet roll in the local shop.
FPT We had a debate the other day where Rottenborough said that people wouldn't put up with quarantine for more than a couple of weeks, and I said nonchalantly that lots of us could stay at home for months with electronic media, no problem.
The Peaton rumour, if true, will test my theory, as I turned 70 last month, so apparenly I'll be in strict quarantine for 4 months (wow, I can post all day on PB!). I'm up for it - it's a blunt instrument as I'm really in better health than many younger people, but I appreciate the Government can't mess about with individual assessment. I assume some food arrangements will be made - I've got two weeks' supply of dried/frozen food, but haven't want to panic-buy more.
In general the measures that Peston leaks are more in line with other countries, so I'm happy to welcome them in principle. I'm puzzled by the Government's strategy, as some of the restrictions seem different from the "oh well, let's accept it and develop herd immunity gradually" idea. But with luck we'll get more clarity soon. If the idea is that most people develop immunity while oldies at higher risk are safely tucked away, I guess that's defensible.
Many happy returns for last month.
The idea the government is following is this -
1) Isolating the elderly and vulnerable is the only way to slow down them getting it. Slow down. Nothing is perfect - some will get it. 2) To get the best isolation (people keep to the plan etc), you time it so that the Elderly & Vulnerable (E&V) are in their bunkers for the peak. 3) With the higher risk categories mostly protected, the virus will spread (inevitably) through the population. 4) E&V are about 20% of the UK population IIRC. 5) When they emerge from isolation, hopefully we will be on the downslope of the "wave". 6) Many of those round them will now be immune.
The piece of the jigsaw that I am not seeing is the testing of those who go down with symptoms. On the working assumption that once you have had the virus but are now tested as now negative, that is a valuable resource that can again safely have contact with the E&Vs.
Those who just had a heavy cold/flu may THINK they had Covid-19 - and so think themselves immune. Without testing, that could have grim consequences.
That`s a good point. Is there a test that can establish whether an individual is immune? Also, what if the virus mutates?
Tbh even as a signed up Remainer Guardianista, I didn't bother reading it.
The roll-out rate of a non-existent vaccine hardly seems very important at the moment. I posted it on here for laughs.
Roy Lilly former NHS manager and often wheeled out commentator and I think at one time an active conservative said on Sky this morning that when it comes to ventilators the US will manufacture for themselves, NZ is the Southern Hemispheres prime supplier and the EU will look after themselves as a direct consequence of the UK no longer being a member. Not wanting to start another brexit debate post the comment purely for info.
In fact, the individual countries inside the EU are looking after themselves. See Germany refusing to share medical supplies, for example.
Tbh even as a signed up Remainer Guardianista, I didn't bother reading it.
The roll-out rate of a non-existent vaccine hardly seems very important at the moment. I posted it on here for laughs.
Roy Lilly former NHS manager and often wheeled out commentator and I think at one time an active conservative said on Sky this morning that when it comes to ventilators the US will manufacture for themselves, NZ is the Southern Hemispheres prime supplier and the EU will look after themselves as a direct consequence of the UK no longer being a member. Not wanting to start another brexit debate post the comment purely for info.
In fact, the individual countries inside the EU are looking after themselves. See Germany refusing to share medical supplies, for example.
As I would expect them to do
So whether or not we are in the EU makes no difference at all.
Tbh even as a signed up Remainer Guardianista, I didn't bother reading it.
The roll-out rate of a non-existent vaccine hardly seems very important at the moment. I posted it on here for laughs.
Roy Lilly former NHS manager and often wheeled out commentator and I think at one time an active conservative said on Sky this morning that when it comes to ventilators the US will manufacture for themselves, NZ is the Southern Hemispheres prime supplier and the EU will look after themselves as a direct consequence of the UK no longer being a member. Not wanting to start another brexit debate post the comment purely for info.
As an aside, Roy Lilley used to the work at the same NHS hospital in Surrey as my father in his retirement years during the 1980s. He said that he arrived at exactly the moment of the then government's managerial reforms, and had a huge rolls-royce that was a given a new painted space in the car park. This was how many NHS staff experienced the arrival of the new managing class at the time, and many weren't happy with losing the power over clinical decisions.
Comments
Edit to say, that I dont believe more than a few Hundus have tried this.
https://covid19japan.com/
The underlying change I think you can see is that the number of cases was trending up until a week ago, which was about 2 weeks after the current response started, then went flat. These last few days we've had a bunch of cases of new arrivals from Europe, so it may go up a bit even if community transmission is staying flat or dropping.
We have a kinder, gentler politics down here.
He has not done so. Neither has Andy Burnham in Manchester (at least as far as I know). He is supporting the government line to the letter, whilst challenging them where practical (eg supporting calls for mortgage holidays for those affected). Even Nicola Sturgeon has only strayed minorly from the official advice.
It's a bit strange that there is apparently so much outcry over the government's handling of the crisis, yet everyone in a position to gain from opposing it is choosing not to.
Mr. G, hope you and yours come through this ok. Must disagree on the lack concern for the elderly, though.
You aren't suggesting.....
The number of official active cases in Japan is proportional to the number of days till it's definitely too late to make a call on whether the Olympics goes ahead as scheduled.
See thread:
https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1239124195533107200
I also await with interest the explanation of why it is that the leaders of the Scottish and Welsh Governments (respectively, the leader of a separatist movement that wants to abolish the UK and a Corbynite socialist, both of whom regard the Tories as their primary political enemies, and are willing under any other circumstances to accuse Conservatives of all the evils under the Sun,) are acting in complete lockstep with the supposed granny holocaust plan.
Why are Sturgeon and Drakeford not screaming the house down and pulling all the devolved policy levers in the opposite direction to that suggested by Boris Johnson? Have they suddenly and mysteriously become extremely thick? Or evil? Or secretly put on their blue velvet robes, genuflected before the Icon of the Sainted Margaret and joined the Tories?
Or could it possibly, conceivably, be the case that the assorted panicking ranters and conspiracy theorists are talking bollocks, and that it's quite simply the case that we have no good options - but that following the advice of medical and scientific professionals appointed specifically to deal with situations like this is the least worst course available?
Besides which, even if we take the most cynical view possible of Johnson (excusable given that (a) he's a politician and (b) his past track record,) why in the name of God would he set out deliberately to cause a reckless and wholly unnecessary mass casualty event amongst the elderly? Age is the single best predictor of voting intention. Codgers are his core vote.
Probably best to self isolate for a bit ?
I do feel that the govt hasn't communicated its policy that well yet. Partly that's a function of a lack of trust (and to be fair, Boris is well established as a liar).
But I do think they are making decisions in the right way, and hopefully they will turn out to be the right decisions.
Also @malcolmg - saw your response, that's fine, appreciate your comment wasn't directed at me, apols if I over-reacted.
Alternatively, just because he thinks it's the right thing to do in general, rather than a politically smart call?
Johnson is not *deliberately* targeting the elderly which I infer is what you are suggesting - that is nonsense. It is the virus which deliberately targets them, the job of the officials is to find the best way through this where 50k deaths of mainly elderly people many of whom would have died of something else anyway doesn't become 500k deaths in a country left traumatised and economically broken.
For all the gags and the barbs these are real breathing human beings sat in Downing Street and the Department for Health working through the models as to what the acceptable death toll will be. People Are Going To Die. Sorry if that offends you.
Either way, it seems Khan's supporting a Corbyn initiative, rather than leading one himself.
That seems to be something of a mindset issue.
I am not an epidemiologist, although I know a few. We simply have to trust that the government is doing the right thing from the perspective of public health. They really are not trying to anything that the wilder conspiracy theorists suggest.
As individuals it, of course, makes sense to consider whether to apply a stricter regime on yourself and your family
"Brexit means coronavirus vaccine will be slower to reach the UK"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/14/coronavirus-vaccine-delays-brexit-ema-expensive
It is therefore critical that we continue to hear from Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Butler, Burgon, Mad Len etc. It would be inappropriate of Labour to continue this election when all others are cancelled. Besides which, I'm sure the pre-recorded RLB victory speech will still sound Fresh and Relevant in which ever year it gets broadcast.
You know, seeing as you were in the Navy and all.
It's a random consequence of evolution, itself a concept so utterly bizarre it could only have occured by accident.
#fuckinagainbloomberg
The roll-out rate of a non-existent vaccine hardly seems very important at the moment. I posted it on here for laughs.
1) Isolating the elderly and vulnerable is the only way to slow down them getting it. Slow down. Nothing is perfect - some will get it.
2) To get the best isolation (people keep to the plan etc), you time it so that the Elderly & Vulnerable (E&V) are in their bunkers for the peak.
3) With the higher risk categories mostly protected, the virus will spread (inevitably) through the population.
4) E&V are about 20% of the UK population IIRC.
5) When they emerge from isolation, hopefully we will be on the downslope of the "wave".
6) Many of those round them will now be immune.
Prior to the fire (1906), the US insurance market was about 50/50 split between German and UK companies. The German companies tried every legal and technical wheeze to avoid paying. The UK companies paid up without question.
In the next decade the market share was 90/10 in favour of the UK companies.
I would be very surprised if any of the mainstream insurance companies tried not to payout on those grounds.
I could open my bedroom door and find Olivia Wilde and Jennifer Morrison pillow fighting over which one of them gets to sleep with me.
But viruses don't like salinity either, so in a hot country next to the ocean is a good place to be
The government's policy seems to me to be based on the idea that the vast majority with get this virus at some point and it is frankly better if the majority get it in May/June than November/December because the NHS has more spare capacity at that time of the year. Where herd immunity comes in is that the more of us get it then the more of us will be immune (we hope) in November/December making the spread of the virus at that time at least slower with fewer cases arising for an over-pressed NHS. To take a worse case scenario if Covid 19 overlapped with a typical flu season we would be in really serious trouble.
The logic is therefore that although we want to mitigate and slow the spread of the virus (flattening the curve) we don't actually want to take extreme action that defers it for some months.
As I said yesterday this seems a logical response if you have limited optimism about a vaccine or effective treatment evolving this year.
I'd argue that food, water, sleep, shelter, etc. are human necessities. The right to vote is not a necessity.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-8112893/DAN-HODGES-new-British-motto-Panic-Snatch-Toilet-Rolls.html
I wouldn't - and you are taking a worse risk as an unsecured creditor
Those who just had a heavy cold/flu may THINK they had Covid-19 - and so think themselves immune. Without testing, that could have grim consequences.
Shows how much real work I have done in last five years.
Neither am I, to be fair.