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  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    So the experts say facemasks are not helpful unless you actually have the disease to protect others. What do the armchair epidemiologists think?
    So even from that comment we can conclude that they are helpful then?

    Given people are often asymptomatic for the disease early doors and yet people can still spread when asymptomatic then wearing a mask would then be helpful if everyone did it. But we haven't got enough so they aren't recommending it. Fair enough.

    In terms of the effectiveness for protecting the wearer, I've studied the review in the BMJ and noted that there is evidence of effectiveness in a community setting. What do you make of the review in the BMJ?
    Helpful if you have it. Not helpful, and maybe even an additional risk, if you don't.
    So given that spreaders and super-spreaders typically don't know they have it until it's too late.. do you not think if everyone wore the mask as part of their routine then that might reduce spread by a few percentage points?

    Why are we so much cleverer than the Chinese, the Koreans, the Taiwanese etc etc. who are used to dealing with pandemics?
    Because the extra risk of getting infected because we don't know how to use the things (as explained in the video) is far greater than any beneficial effect?
    What extra risk? That's just ludicrous.

    If you were around in the 1940s you'd be telling everyone the official government information that carrots improved your eyesight. It's true because the government tells you so!

    In times of war, government tells BIG LIES for the greater good. The calculation here is that we'd have a BOG ROLL situation with face-masks because we don't have enough. Fine but don't try and kid me they don't work.
    Ah, so it's all a conspiracy?
    You might consider it a conspiracy. You might consider it selective information for the greater good. Just as the government might be slowly drip-feeding information into the public consciousness so we don't have carnage down the local supermarkets over night. Slowly slowly catchy monkey.
    Although to be fair, before this outbreak there has been a number of academic studies and they have generally not shown to be massively effective against things like flu. And that is mainly because it is believed those who aren't medically trained don't know how to use them properly.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    eadric said:

    RobD said:

    eadric said:

    RobD said:

    eadric said:

    IanB2 said:

    RobD said:

    So the experts say facemasks are not helpful unless you actually have the disease to protect others. What do the armchair epidemiologists think?
    Eadric has yet to explain what is the point of his orange rubber gloves.
    Two purposes: they will prevent you picking up the virus on your physical hands, which is helpful (tho of course you mus ttake the gloves on and off properly).

    More important is the psychological effect (and this applies to masks, as well). If you are wearing gloves you are constantly aware that hands are an issue. And when you get back you want to take the gloves off, and you are smartly reminded that you then have to wash your hands again.

    If you are still touching your face, then it doesn't matter what you are wearing on your hands. Same applies if you are not touching your face. Probably why it isn't recommended, because the most important thing is just to stop touching your face!
    READ WHAT I WROTE

    If you are wearing bright orange gloves you keep looking at them and thinking, er, what, and then you remember: Eeeek, Virus. DO NOT TOUCH YOUR FACE.

    I don't know about others, but I find not touching my face quite hard. We do it all the time. These gloves remind me.

    Fuck it, others may differ. We all have to survive the way that is best for us.
    Alternatively, you could wear one of those giant cones that we put on pets. That'd stop us from touching our face.
    They would actually be quite helpful. I thought that today.
    Awkward when you want to savour the Châteauneuf-du-Pape, though.
    Awkward? You just pour it straight in. :D
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    So the experts say facemasks are not helpful unless you actually have the disease to protect others. What do the armchair epidemiologists think?
    So even from that comment we can conclude that they are helpful then?

    Given people are often asymptomatic for the disease early doors and yet people can still spread when asymptomatic then wearing a mask would then be helpful if everyone did it. But we haven't got enough so they aren't recommending it. Fair enough.

    In terms of the effectiveness for protecting the wearer, I've studied the review in the BMJ and noted that there is evidence of effectiveness in a community setting. What do you make of the review in the BMJ?
    Helpful if you have it. Not helpful, and maybe even an additional risk, if you don't.
    So given that spreaders and super-spreaders typically don't know they have it until it's too late.. do you not think if everyone wore the mask as part of their routine then that might reduce spread by a few percentage points?

    Why are we so much cleverer than the Chinese, the Koreans, the Taiwanese etc etc. who are used to dealing with pandemics?
    Because the extra risk of getting infected because we don't know how to use the things (as explained in the video) is far greater than any beneficial effect?
    What extra risk? That's just ludicrous.

    If you were around in the 1940s you'd be telling everyone the official government information that carrots improved your eyesight. It's true because the government tells you so!

    In times of war, government tells BIG LIES for the greater good. The calculation here is that we'd have a BOG ROLL situation with face-masks because we don't have enough. Fine but don't try and kid me they don't work.
    Ah, so it's all a conspiracy?
    You might consider it a conspiracy. You might consider it selective information for the greater good. Just as the government might be slowly drip-feeding information into the public consciousness so we don't have carnage down the local supermarkets over night. Slowly slowly catchy monkey.
    Although to be fair, before this outbreak there has been a number of academic studies and they have generally not shown to be massively effective against things like flu. And that is mainly because it is believed those who aren't medically trained don't know how to use them properly.
    Precisely the point made in that video.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited March 2020
    Some really sad tales from Italy of people stuck in their homes with their dead relatives.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    RobD said:

    eadric said:

    RobD said:

    eadric said:

    RobD said:

    eadric said:

    IanB2 said:

    RobD said:

    So the experts say facemasks are not helpful unless you actually have the disease to protect others. What do the armchair epidemiologists think?
    Eadric has yet to explain what is the point of his orange rubber gloves.
    Two purposes: they will prevent you picking up the virus on your physical hands, which is helpful (tho of course you mus ttake the gloves on and off properly).

    More important is the psychological effect (and this applies to masks, as well). If you are wearing gloves you are constantly aware that hands are an issue. And when you get back you want to take the gloves off, and you are smartly reminded that you then have to wash your hands again.

    If you are still touching your face, then it doesn't matter what you are wearing on your hands. Same applies if you are not touching your face. Probably why it isn't recommended, because the most important thing is just to stop touching your face!
    READ WHAT I WROTE

    If you are wearing bright orange gloves you keep looking at them and thinking, er, what, and then you remember: Eeeek, Virus. DO NOT TOUCH YOUR FACE.

    I don't know about others, but I find not touching my face quite hard. We do it all the time. These gloves remind me.

    Fuck it, others may differ. We all have to survive the way that is best for us.
    Alternatively, you could wear one of those giant cones that we put on pets. That'd stop us from touching our face.
    They would actually be quite helpful. I thought that today.
    Awkward when you want to savour the Châteauneuf-du-Pape, though.
    Awkward? You just pour it straight in. :D
    I suppose on the upside it would mean your clothes wouldn't get splashed when you're tucking into the moules marinière.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,814
    edited March 2020
    Chameleon said:

    eadric said:

    So here's some news from senior folk at the NHS (in Wales).

    They must know this is going to leak very soon, so I don't think I am breaking some injunction.

    All ICU staff and many NHS staff have been told to go home and order 3 weeks worth of food. The government is going to impose a lockdown in 7-10 days.

    If this rumour is correct (and the source is reliable) it's coming quickly now.

    7pm tonight.

    This is really dumb to announce a lockdown in x days. You do it at 2-3am then and there.
    No way, they'll need to go through a middle phase first. Tonight we may be told stock up and prepare just in case you need to self isolate. Then when most people have the food, that's when it happens.
    I suspect ideally they’d want to pre-announce it on a Friday afternoon too. Give people the chance to get what they need from work and give businesses a couple of days to work out what’s what in time for the Monday.

    Of course events could force their hands not to do that, and if they did I could just imagine the supermarkets on the Saturday.
  • GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    So the experts say facemasks are not helpful unless you actually have the disease to protect others. What do the armchair epidemiologists think?
    So even from that comment we can conclude that they are helpful then?

    Given people are often asymptomatic for the disease early doors and yet people can still spread when asymptomatic then wearing a mask would then be helpful if everyone did it. But we haven't got enough so they aren't recommending it. Fair enough.

    In terms of the effectiveness for protecting the wearer, I've studied the review in the BMJ and noted that there is evidence of effectiveness in a community setting. What do you make of the review in the BMJ?
    Helpful if you have it. Not helpful, and maybe even an additional risk, if you don't.
    So given that spreaders and super-spreaders typically don't know they have it until it's too late.. do you not think if everyone wore the mask as part of their routine then that might reduce spread by a few percentage points?

    Why are we so much cleverer than the Chinese, the Koreans, the Taiwanese etc etc. who are used to dealing with pandemics?
    Because the extra risk of getting infected because we don't know how to use the things (as explained in the video) is far greater than any beneficial effect?
    What extra risk? That's just ludicrous.

    If you were around in the 1940s you'd be telling everyone the official government information that carrots improved your eyesight. It's true because the government tells you so!

    In times of war, government tells BIG LIES for the greater good. The calculation here is that we'd have a BOG ROLL situation with face-masks because we don't have enough. Fine but don't try and kid me they don't work.
    Ah, so it's all a conspiracy?
    You might consider it a conspiracy. You might consider it selective information for the greater good. Just as the government might be slowly drip-feeding information into the public consciousness so we don't have carnage down the local supermarkets over night. Slowly slowly catchy monkey.
    Although to be fair, before this outbreak there has been a number of academic studies and they have generally not shown to be massively effective against things like flu. And that is mainly because it is believed those who aren't medically trained don't know how to use them properly.
    Yes I know. I have read in detail the review in the BMJ describing the studies. There is evidence of effectiveness in a community setting. They reduce risk, they are not a panacea. But we are talking about a percentage reduction in risk here, a percentage reduction there.

    What we do know is that the countries who are used to fighting pandemics wear face masks routinely. We will *never* know for sure whether they work because it is impossible to generate randomised evidence on them in the public.

    But again why do we think we are so cleverer than the people who are used to fighting pandemics? It is Western exceptionalism. Misplaced.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    Some really sad tales from Italy of people stuck in their homes with their dead relatives.

    God almighty
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    So the experts say facemasks are not helpful unless you actually have the disease to protect others. What do the armchair epidemiologists think?
    So even from that comment we can conclude that they are helpful then?

    Given people are often asymptomatic for the disease early doors and yet people can still spread when asymptomatic then wearing a mask would then be helpful if everyone did it. But we haven't got enough so they aren't recommending it. Fair enough.

    In terms of the effectiveness for protecting the wearer, I've studied the review in the BMJ and noted that there is evidence of effectiveness in a community setting. What do you make of the review in the BMJ?
    Helpful if you have it. Not helpful, and maybe even an additional risk, if you don't.
    So given that spreaders and super-spreaders typically don't know they have it until it's too late.. do you not think if everyone wore the mask as part of their routine then that might reduce spread by a few percentage points?

    Why are we so much cleverer than the Chinese, the Koreans, the Taiwanese etc etc. who are used to dealing with pandemics?
    Because the extra risk of getting infected because we don't know how to use the things (as explained in the video) is far greater than any beneficial effect?
    What extra risk? That's just ludicrous.

    If you were around in the 1940s you'd be telling everyone the official government information that carrots improved your eyesight. It's true because the government tells you so!

    In times of war, government tells BIG LIES for the greater good. The calculation here is that we'd have a BOG ROLL situation with face-masks because we don't have enough. Fine but don't try and kid me they don't work.
    Ah, so it's all a conspiracy?
    You might consider it a conspiracy. You might consider it selective information for the greater good. Just as the government might be slowly drip-feeding information into the public consciousness so we don't have carnage down the local supermarkets over night. Slowly slowly catchy monkey.
    Although to be fair, before this outbreak there has been a number of academic studies and they have generally not shown to be massively effective against things like flu. And that is mainly because it is believed those who aren't medically trained don't know how to use them properly.
    Yes I know. I have read in detail the review in the BMJ describing the studies. There is evidence of effectiveness in a community setting. They reduce risk, they are not a panacea. But we are talking about a percentage reduction in risk here, a percentage reduction there.

    What we do know is that the countries who are used to fighting pandemics wear face masks routinely. We will *never* know for sure whether they work because it is impossible to generate randomised evidence on them in the public.

    But again why do we think we are so cleverer than the people who are used to fighting pandemics? It is Western exceptionalism. Misplaced.
    I definitely think that the fact Asian went through SARS they are much more acutely aware of this kind of disease.

    I think even in normal times a sick person wearing a mask as a common curiosity seems very reasonable and hopefully if we get through this it will become commonplace in the West.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,767
    Time of national crisis. Trump must be beaten to save us all. Biden is that man etc etc etc
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    eadric said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    So the experts say facemasks are not helpful unless you actually have the disease to protect others. What do the armchair epidemiologists think?
    So even from that comment we can conclude that they are helpful then?

    Given people are often asymptomatic for the disease early doors and yet people can still spread when asymptomatic then wearing a mask would then be helpful if everyone did it. But we haven't got enough so they aren't recommending it. Fair enough.

    In terms of the effectiveness for protecting the wearer, I've studied the review in the BMJ and noted that there is evidence of effectiveness in a community setting. What do you make of the review in the BMJ?
    Helpful if you have it. Not helpful, and maybe even an additional risk, if you don't.
    So given that spreaders and super-spreaders typically don't know they have it until it's too late.. do you not think if everyone wore the mask as part of their routine then that might reduce spread by a few percentage points?

    Why are we so much cleverer than the Chinese, the Koreans, the Taiwanese etc etc. who are used to dealing with pandemics?
    Because the extra risk of getting infected because we don't know how to use the things (as explained in the video) is far greater than any beneficial effect?
    What extra risk? That's just ludicrous.

    If you were around in the 1940s you'd be telling everyone the official government information that carrots improved your eyesight. It's true because the government tells you so!

    In times of war, government tells BIG LIES for the greater good. The calculation here is that we'd have a BOG ROLL situation with face-masks because we don't have enough. Fine but don't try and kid me they don't work.
    Well, quite. if they don't work, then why is the government so desperate to stop us buying them so they can reserve them for, uh, health workers?

    Why are all those silly nurses and doctors in Italy and China wearing them?
    Eadric I was accused of being you this morning. I was referring to the Black Death, unaware that you had done likewise over the weekend. Tragically I don't spend my whole life on here. Apparently the notion that two intelligent people might make a similar comparison with one of the last viruses to sweep the world is lost on myopic and monochromatic brains.

    The face mask issue will be buried along with the many dead when this sweeps the country.

    I'm sorry to sound macabre but it's coming folks.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,767

    Some really sad tales from Italy of people stuck in their homes with their dead relatives.

    God almighty
    Nobody under around 80 in this country has witnessed anything like what is possibly/probably going to hit us in the next month or so.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,359

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    geoffw said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT

    TGOHF666 said:
    Wow, big news!

    And given the oaf across the pond, simply doing it but not making a big deal about it could be a smart move.

    Eliminating business rates but having a tax like this replace it is massively productive and beneficial.
    And how do we collect/assess this exactly? I mean, don't get me wrong, I think that the mainly US internet giants are parasitical, feeding off our society but putting very little back. I am just not sure how we audit what Google earns off search engines in the UK. They may not even know themselves.
    I bet they do know themselves.
    I am sure that they can produce accounts showing anything from a loss to a profit of a billion. How will we know if they are right? We cannot audit them. Its not like buying a takeaway and seeing if it shows up in the VAT return.
    Is it not? With Making Tax Digital don't the government have all sorts of information it never used to have?

    Takeaway reports it in its VAT return that they've paid Google.

    Google doesn't report the income in its return.

    Google has an issue that HMRC can investigate.

    Or is the system not that clever?
    I don't think it is now but the Chancellor did give a boost to HMRC in pursuit of "aggressive" tax avoidance. Hopefully they will not spend it all on IR35 cases.
    The Government have killed contracting across large swathes of business.

    Their own estimates when they prepared the changes were that about 66% of existing contractors were legitimately outside IR35 and 34% inside. The aim was (quite rightly) to catch the 34%.

    The end user companies who are now responsible have taken one look at the penalties they would be liable to pay if they incorrectly assess someone as being outside when they should be in and have thought 'bugger that'.

    As a result the companies have now said that only 14% of contractors are legitimately outside IR35 and have pulled 86% of them inside. This has often involved going against the advice of the specialist accountancy and legal firms like Qdos who are there to assess all the contractors.

    Worse still they have said that those contractors who are inside IR35 will be deducted not only the employees PAYE and NI but also the employers as well.

    It is a real cluster and will cost HMRC a very large amount of revenue.

    Edit, worth pointing out that I have been assessed as being outside so I am one of the lucky few.
    Richard , what makes you inside or outside
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119

    Some really sad tales from Italy of people stuck in their homes with their dead relatives.

    God almighty
    Nobody under around 80 in this country has witnessed anything like what is possibly/probably going to hit us in the next month or so.
    You mean it is going to be worse than when Twitter or Instagram go down for a few hours?
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    Some really sad tales from Italy of people stuck in their homes with their dead relatives.

    God almighty
    Nobody under around 80 in this country has witnessed anything like what is possibly/probably going to hit us in the next month or so.
    I'm afraid you are right
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898



    The Government have killed contracting across large swathes of business.

    Their own estimates when they prepared the changes were that about 66% of existing contractors were legitimately outside IR35 and 34% inside. The aim was (quite rightly) to catch the 34%.

    The end user companies who are now responsible have taken one look at the penalties they would be liable to pay if they incorrectly assess someone as being outside when they should be in and have thought 'bugger that'.

    As a result the companies have now said that only 14% of contractors are legitimately outside IR35 and have pulled 86% of them inside. This has often involved going against the advice of the specialist accountancy and legal firms like Qdos who are there to assess all the contractors.

    Worse still they have said that those contractors who are inside IR35 will be deducted not only the employees PAYE and NI but also the employers as well.

    It is a real cluster and will cost HMRC a very large amount of revenue.

    Edit, worth pointing out that I have been assessed as being outside so I am one of the lucky few.

    Mrs Stodge has been badly affected by this.

    She contracts within the financial sector and has for many years. It works for her and has allowed her the flexibility to visit her family in NZ for an extended period.

    What I resent is the notion contractors are somehow tax avoiders. She pays Corporation Tax and has to pay Insurance as well as her Agency. She has no job security, no sick pay, no holiday pay and no pension through her employment.

    What she has is years of expertise having worked in financial compliance across a number of large and medium banks including investment banks.

    This has upset her and it is absurdly short-sighted and vindictive.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Did you not hear? We want a government that is going to GET IT DONE.

    Until we don't of course.

    Can it Get Coronavirus Done, please.
    That would be nice. If I was a newspaper editor I would be holding the front page until after the 7pm statement. It may prove more dramatic than the budget.
    What happens at 7 pm ?
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Some really sad tales from Italy of people stuck in their homes with their dead relatives.

    God almighty
    In the Pope's case; yes, sort of.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Did you not hear? We want a government that is going to GET IT DONE.

    Until we don't of course.

    Can it Get Coronavirus Done, please.
    That would be nice. If I was a newspaper editor I would be holding the front page until after the 7pm statement. It may prove more dramatic than the budget.
    What happens at 7 pm ?
    Matt Hancock is giving a statement.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Did you not hear? We want a government that is going to GET IT DONE.

    Until we don't of course.

    Can it Get Coronavirus Done, please.
    That would be nice. If I was a newspaper editor I would be holding the front page until after the 7pm statement. It may prove more dramatic than the budget.
    What happens at 7 pm ?
    Statement by Hancock in the Commons. Expecting him to announce a series of new measures as we move to phase 2.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    I wonder if / when they will lock the president down?
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    So the experts say facemasks are not helpful unless you actually have the disease to protect others. What do the armchair epidemiologists think?
    So even from that comment we can conclude that they are helpful then?

    Given people are often asymptomatic for the disease early doors and yet people can still spread when asymptomatic then wearing a mask would then be helpful if everyone did it. But we haven't got enough so they aren't recommending it. Fair enough.

    In terms of the effectiveness for protecting the wearer, I've studied the review in the BMJ and noted that there is evidence of effectiveness in a community setting. What do you make of the review in the BMJ?
    Helpful if you have it. Not helpful, and maybe even an additional risk, if you don't.
    So given that spreaders and super-spreaders typically don't know they have it until it's too late.. do you not think if everyone wore the mask as part of their routine then that might reduce spread by a few percentage points?

    Why are we so much cleverer than the Chinese, the Koreans, the Taiwanese etc etc. who are used to dealing with pandemics?
    Because the extra risk of getting infected because we don't know how to use the things (as explained in the video) is far greater than any beneficial effect?
    What extra risk? That's just ludicrous.

    If you were around in the 1940s you'd be telling everyone the official government information that carrots improved your eyesight. It's true because the government tells you so!

    In times of war, government tells BIG LIES for the greater good. The calculation here is that we'd have a BOG ROLL situation with face-masks because we don't have enough. Fine but don't try and kid me they don't work.
    Ah, so it's all a conspiracy?
    You might consider it a conspiracy. You might consider it selective information for the greater good. Just as the government might be slowly drip-feeding information into the public consciousness so we don't have carnage down the local supermarkets over night. Slowly slowly catchy monkey.
    Although to be fair, before this outbreak there has been a number of academic studies and they have generally not shown to be massively effective against things like flu. And that is mainly because it is believed those who aren't medically trained don't know how to use them properly.
    Yes I know. I have read in detail the review in the BMJ describing the studies. There is evidence of effectiveness in a community setting. They reduce risk, they are not a panacea. But we are talking about a percentage reduction in risk here, a percentage reduction there.

    What we do know is that the countries who are used to fighting pandemics wear face masks routinely. We will *never* know for sure whether they work because it is impossible to generate randomised evidence on them in the public.

    But again why do we think we are so cleverer than the people who are used to fighting pandemics? It is Western exceptionalism. Misplaced.
    I definitely think that the fact Asian went through SARS they are much more acutely aware of this kind of disease.

    I think even in normal times a sick person wearing a mask as a common curiosity seems very reasonable and hopefully if we get through this it will become commonplace in the West.
    As I recall, they were doing this long before SARS, and it's to do with the appalling air quality in some large Asian cities.

    I don't expect to see mask wearing becoming more common in the West any time soon, past the end of this episode.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Did you not hear? We want a government that is going to GET IT DONE.

    Until we don't of course.

    Can it Get Coronavirus Done, please.
    That would be nice. If I was a newspaper editor I would be holding the front page until after the 7pm statement. It may prove more dramatic than the budget.
    What happens at 7 pm ?
    Matt Hancock is giving a statement.
    Surely he will try not to steal Sunak's thunder?
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191

    eadric said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    So the experts say facemasks are not helpful unless you actually have the disease to protect others. What do the armchair epidemiologists think?
    So even from that comment we can conclude that they are helpful then?

    Given people are often asymptomatic for the disease early doors and yet people can still spread when asymptomatic then wearing a mask would then be helpful if everyone did it. But we haven't got enough so they aren't recommending it. Fair enough.

    In terms of the effectiveness for protecting the wearer, I've studied the review in the BMJ and noted that there is evidence of effectiveness in a community setting. What do you make of the review in the BMJ?
    Helpful if you have it. Not helpful, and maybe even an additional risk, if you don't.
    So given that spreaders and super-spreaders typically don't know they have it until it's too late.. do you not think if everyone wore the mask as part of their routine then that might reduce spread by a few percentage points?

    Why are we so much cleverer than the Chinese, the Koreans, the Taiwanese etc etc. who are used to dealing with pandemics?
    Because the extra risk of getting infected because we don't know how to use the things (as explained in the video) is far greater than any beneficial effect?
    What extra risk? That's just ludicrous.

    If you were around in the 1940s you'd be telling everyone the official government information that carrots improved your eyesight. It's true because the government tells you so!

    In times of war, government tells BIG LIES for the greater good. The calculation here is that we'd have a BOG ROLL situation with face-masks because we don't have enough. Fine but don't try and kid me they don't work.
    Well, quite. if they don't work, then why is the government so desperate to stop us buying them so they can reserve them for, uh, health workers?

    Why are all those silly nurses and doctors in Italy and China wearing them?
    Eadric I was accused of being you this morning. I was referring to the Black Death, unaware that you had done likewise over the weekend. Tragically I don't spend my whole life on here. Apparently the notion that two intelligent people might make a similar comparison with one of the last viruses to sweep the world is lost on myopic and monochromatic brains.

    The face mask issue will be buried along with the many dead when this sweeps the country.

    I'm sorry to sound macabre but it's coming folks.

    Only one small mistake - as far as we know the Black Death was bubonic plague, not caused by a virus. Apart from that I salute your superior intelligence on the subject.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    Endillion said:



    As I recall, they were doing this long before SARS, and it's to do with the appalling air quality in some large Asian cities.

    I don't expect to see mask wearing becoming more common in the West any time soon, past the end of this episode.

    I am sure you are correct, I just meant people in Asian are even more aware of the dangers given SARS.
  • I wonder if / when they will lock the president down?
    When his Presidency ends and they can charge him.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    stodge said:



    The Government have killed contracting across large swathes of business.

    Their own estimates when they prepared the changes were that about 66% of existing contractors were legitimately outside IR35 and 34% inside. The aim was (quite rightly) to catch the 34%.

    The end user companies who are now responsible have taken one look at the penalties they would be liable to pay if they incorrectly assess someone as being outside when they should be in and have thought 'bugger that'.

    As a result the companies have now said that only 14% of contractors are legitimately outside IR35 and have pulled 86% of them inside. This has often involved going against the advice of the specialist accountancy and legal firms like Qdos who are there to assess all the contractors.

    Worse still they have said that those contractors who are inside IR35 will be deducted not only the employees PAYE and NI but also the employers as well.

    It is a real cluster and will cost HMRC a very large amount of revenue.

    Edit, worth pointing out that I have been assessed as being outside so I am one of the lucky few.

    Mrs Stodge has been badly affected by this.

    She contracts within the financial sector and has for many years. It works for her and has allowed her the flexibility to visit her family in NZ for an extended period.

    What I resent is the notion contractors are somehow tax avoiders. She pays Corporation Tax and has to pay Insurance as well as her Agency. She has no job security, no sick pay, no holiday pay and no pension through her employment.

    What she has is years of expertise having worked in financial compliance across a number of large and medium banks including investment banks.

    This has upset her and it is absurdly short-sighted and vindictive.
    IANAE but as I understand it the key is whether you really have a business or are really engaged by a single employer. My understanding is that if you have 4 or 5 clients then you are outside. If you have 1 you are inside. If you are in between it might depend on how material some of them are. Someone who is working as a consultant across several banks should be ok unless they are basically working for them 1 at a time.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,570
    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    geoffw said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT

    TGOHF666 said:
    Wow, big news!

    And given the oaf across the pond, simply doing it but not making a big deal about it could be a smart move.

    Eliminating business rates but having a tax like this replace it is massively productive and beneficial.
    And how do we collect/assess this exactly? I mean, don't get me wrong, I think that the mainly US internet giants are parasitical, feeding off our society but putting very little back. I am just not sure how we audit what Google earns off search engines in the UK. They may not even know themselves.
    I bet they do know themselves.
    I am sure that they can produce accounts showing anything from a loss to a profit of a billion. How will we know if they are right? We cannot audit them. Its not like buying a takeaway and seeing if it shows up in the VAT return.
    Is it not? With Making Tax Digital don't the government have all sorts of information it never used to have?

    Takeaway reports it in its VAT return that they've paid Google.

    Google doesn't report the income in its return.

    Google has an issue that HMRC can investigate.

    Or is the system not that clever?
    I don't think it is now but the Chancellor did give a boost to HMRC in pursuit of "aggressive" tax avoidance. Hopefully they will not spend it all on IR35 cases.
    The Government have killed contracting across large swathes of business.

    Their own estimates when they prepared the changes were that about 66% of existing contractors were legitimately outside IR35 and 34% inside. The aim was (quite rightly) to catch the 34%.

    The end user companies who are now responsible have taken one look at the penalties they would be liable to pay if they incorrectly assess someone as being outside when they should be in and have thought 'bugger that'.

    As a result the companies have now said that only 14% of contractors are legitimately outside IR35 and have pulled 86% of them inside. This has often involved going against the advice of the specialist accountancy and legal firms like Qdos who are there to assess all the contractors.

    Worse still they have said that those contractors who are inside IR35 will be deducted not only the employees PAYE and NI but also the employers as well.

    It is a real cluster and will cost HMRC a very large amount of revenue.

    Edit, worth pointing out that I have been assessed as being outside so I am one of the lucky few.
    Richard , what makes you inside or outside
    A whole host of things.

    Basically for me it is the accumulated effect of working on specific projects where I have a scope of work and then have complete freedom over how and where I deliver (barring an agreed delivery date). As I said yesterday this means that I can, if I chose, do 95% of my work from home and, for reasons of practicality, only need to visit the client office for about 5%. I am providing expert advice and reports and the client, other than accepting the reports/advice, has no control over the work I do. They are effectively paying me for the results not for the work done.

    There is other stuff that helps. I can, if I wish, walk away and have no requirement to do other work. I can get someone else to do the work and I have no managerial or financial involvement with the client. Apart from paying me for the work already delivered as per the contract, the clients can just dump me at any time and without notice. Something that looks to be a possibility at the moment with the oil price and Covid shutdown looming.

    I am at the more extreme end of the Contractor/Employee spectrum but there are a lot of people further along towards the middle. The point of the assessments was supposed to be to make sure people were properly assigned. Unfortunately companies have not taken it that way for fear of the consequences of getting it wrong.

  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773
    Its officially a pandemic.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    I wonder if / when they will lock the president down?
    When his Presidency ends and they can charge him.
    I did wonder earlier if there might come a point when they do need to lock Trump down.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773
    DavidL said:

    stodge said:



    The Government have killed contracting across large swathes of business.

    Their own estimates when they prepared the changes were that about 66% of existing contractors were legitimately outside IR35 and 34% inside. The aim was (quite rightly) to catch the 34%.

    The end user companies who are now responsible have taken one look at the penalties they would be liable to pay if they incorrectly assess someone as being outside when they should be in and have thought 'bugger that'.

    As a result the companies have now said that only 14% of contractors are legitimately outside IR35 and have pulled 86% of them inside. This has often involved going against the advice of the specialist accountancy and legal firms like Qdos who are there to assess all the contractors.

    Worse still they have said that those contractors who are inside IR35 will be deducted not only the employees PAYE and NI but also the employers as well.

    It is a real cluster and will cost HMRC a very large amount of revenue.

    Edit, worth pointing out that I have been assessed as being outside so I am one of the lucky few.

    Mrs Stodge has been badly affected by this.

    She contracts within the financial sector and has for many years. It works for her and has allowed her the flexibility to visit her family in NZ for an extended period.

    What I resent is the notion contractors are somehow tax avoiders. She pays Corporation Tax and has to pay Insurance as well as her Agency. She has no job security, no sick pay, no holiday pay and no pension through her employment.

    What she has is years of expertise having worked in financial compliance across a number of large and medium banks including investment banks.

    This has upset her and it is absurdly short-sighted and vindictive.
    IANAE but as I understand it the key is whether you really have a business or are really engaged by a single employer. My understanding is that if you have 4 or 5 clients then you are outside. If you have 1 you are inside. If you are in between it might depend on how material some of them are. Someone who is working as a consultant across several banks should be ok unless they are basically working for them 1 at a time.
    Thats a 'broad' rule. The key is actually the nature of the contract, and the right of subsitution/ requirement for personal service which is the killer.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205


    Their own estimates when they prepared the changes were that about 66% of existing contractors were legitimately outside IR35 and 34% inside. The aim was (quite rightly) to catch the 34%.

    So 34% of contractors were basically taking the piss out of the system ? No wonder the Gov't changed it. Laws aren't made up for the law abiding majority...
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,000
    RobD said:

    eadric said:

    RobD said:

    eadric said:

    IanB2 said:

    RobD said:

    So the experts say facemasks are not helpful unless you actually have the disease to protect others. What do the armchair epidemiologists think?
    Eadric has yet to explain what is the point of his orange rubber gloves.
    Two purposes: they will prevent you picking up the virus on your physical hands, which is helpful (tho of course you mus ttake the gloves on and off properly).

    More important is the psychological effect (and this applies to masks, as well). If you are wearing gloves you are constantly aware that hands are an issue. And when you get back you want to take the gloves off, and you are smartly reminded that you then have to wash your hands again.

    If you are still touching your face, then it doesn't matter what you are wearing on your hands. Same applies if you are not touching your face. Probably why it isn't recommended, because the most important thing is just to stop touching your face!
    READ WHAT I WROTE

    If you are wearing bright orange gloves you keep looking at them and thinking, er, what, and then you remember: Eeeek, Virus. DO NOT TOUCH YOUR FACE.

    I don't know about others, but I find not touching my face quite hard. We do it all the time. These gloves remind me.

    Fuck it, others may differ. We all have to survive the way that is best for us.
    Alternatively, you could wear one of those giant cones that we put on pets. That'd stop us from touching our face.
    On the downside it would prevent Eadric from licking his bollox.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    It's Pandemonium.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    "WHO has been assessing this outbreak around the clock and we are deeply concerned both by the alarming levels of spread and severity, and by the alarming levels of inaction"-
    @DrTedros
    #COVID19
    4:26 PM · Mar 11, 2020·

    https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1237776967526764544
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    Dr Harries is a class act. Interesting in her comments about timing. The lockdown is coming I would say, but she and her colleagues will declare it at some point and I'd back them to make a better job of enforcing it than the Italians.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    edited March 2020


    I wonder if / when they will lock the president down?

    They need to pull the 25th on that clown. In a crisis the last thing you need is a leader deliberately sabotaging the response simply to prove a point.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773
    The Uk Gov response to this change is status is probably the reason for Hancock tonight.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Did you not hear? We want a government that is going to GET IT DONE.

    Until we don't of course.

    Can it Get Coronavirus Done, please.
    That would be nice. If I was a newspaper editor I would be holding the front page until after the 7pm statement. It may prove more dramatic than the budget.
    What happens at 7 pm ?
    Matt Hancock is giving a statement.
    Surely he will try not to steal Sunak's thunder?
    He's just been given a £30bn budget and he is going to tell us how he is going to spend it. I expect him to recommend a series of protective measures re crowds, events etc as well which sports authorities will then no doubt follow up.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    It's a small consolation that the dissenting voices are gradually falling silent. Debate is great. Stupidity less so.

    We all realise we're in a global fuck.

    Sodding bastard virus.

    Need some humour. Where's Foxy?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,570
    stodge said:



    The Government have killed contracting across large swathes of business.

    Their own estimates when they prepared the changes were that about 66% of existing contractors were legitimately outside IR35 and 34% inside. The aim was (quite rightly) to catch the 34%.

    The end user companies who are now responsible have taken one look at the penalties they would be liable to pay if they incorrectly assess someone as being outside when they should be in and have thought 'bugger that'.

    As a result the companies have now said that only 14% of contractors are legitimately outside IR35 and have pulled 86% of them inside. This has often involved going against the advice of the specialist accountancy and legal firms like Qdos who are there to assess all the contractors.

    Worse still they have said that those contractors who are inside IR35 will be deducted not only the employees PAYE and NI but also the employers as well.

    It is a real cluster and will cost HMRC a very large amount of revenue.

    Edit, worth pointing out that I have been assessed as being outside so I am one of the lucky few.

    Mrs Stodge has been badly affected by this.

    She contracts within the financial sector and has for many years. It works for her and has allowed her the flexibility to visit her family in NZ for an extended period.

    What I resent is the notion contractors are somehow tax avoiders. She pays Corporation Tax and has to pay Insurance as well as her Agency. She has no job security, no sick pay, no holiday pay and no pension through her employment.

    What she has is years of expertise having worked in financial compliance across a number of large and medium banks including investment banks.

    This has upset her and it is absurdly short-sighted and vindictive.
    Really sorry to hear that and I agree entirely.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    DavidL said:


    IANAE but as I understand it the key is whether you really have a business or are really engaged by a single employer. My understanding is that if you have 4 or 5 clients then you are outside. If you have 1 you are inside. If you are in between it might depend on how material some of them are. Someone who is working as a consultant across several banks should be ok unless they are basically working for them 1 at a time.

    She only works for one client at a time - the agency arranges the contract with the bank. The problem is the banks no longer want to employ people on that basis so she will be forced onto a fixed term contract which is less flexible both for her and the employer.

    Under the existing system the bank only needed to provide a week's notice if the work dried up or if the funding for a particular project didn't come through.

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,570
    DavidL said:

    stodge said:



    The Government have killed contracting across large swathes of business.

    Their own estimates when they prepared the changes were that about 66% of existing contractors were legitimately outside IR35 and 34% inside. The aim was (quite rightly) to catch the 34%.

    The end user companies who are now responsible have taken one look at the penalties they would be liable to pay if they incorrectly assess someone as being outside when they should be in and have thought 'bugger that'.

    As a result the companies have now said that only 14% of contractors are legitimately outside IR35 and have pulled 86% of them inside. This has often involved going against the advice of the specialist accountancy and legal firms like Qdos who are there to assess all the contractors.

    Worse still they have said that those contractors who are inside IR35 will be deducted not only the employees PAYE and NI but also the employers as well.

    It is a real cluster and will cost HMRC a very large amount of revenue.

    Edit, worth pointing out that I have been assessed as being outside so I am one of the lucky few.

    Mrs Stodge has been badly affected by this.

    She contracts within the financial sector and has for many years. It works for her and has allowed her the flexibility to visit her family in NZ for an extended period.

    What I resent is the notion contractors are somehow tax avoiders. She pays Corporation Tax and has to pay Insurance as well as her Agency. She has no job security, no sick pay, no holiday pay and no pension through her employment.

    What she has is years of expertise having worked in financial compliance across a number of large and medium banks including investment banks.

    This has upset her and it is absurdly short-sighted and vindictive.
    IANAE but as I understand it the key is whether you really have a business or are really engaged by a single employer. My understanding is that if you have 4 or 5 clients then you are outside. If you have 1 you are inside. If you are in between it might depend on how material some of them are. Someone who is working as a consultant across several banks should be ok unless they are basically working for them 1 at a time.
    Unfortunately not. Each client has to assess their contractors separately. So you can be in a situation where 3 clients say you are legitimately outside IR35 and a 4th decides you are in. It all depends on the specific relationship you have with that client. Or at least it should. What it actually has ended up depending on his how risk averse the clients are.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,814

    It's a small consolation that the dissenting voices are gradually falling silent. Debate is great. Stupidity less so.

    We all realise we're in a global fuck.

    Sodding bastard virus.

    Need some humour. Where's Foxy?

    I won’t join the chorus of extreme doom, I think it will be rough going for a while and we are going to have to make changes for a time. I am concerned for the elderly and vulnerable and anyone who gets caught up with severe symptoms, but I’m afraid I’m not in the “bring out your dead” zone yet.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060
    edited March 2020
    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Did you not hear? We want a government that is going to GET IT DONE.

    Until we don't of course.

    Can it Get Coronavirus Done, please.
    That would be nice. If I was a newspaper editor I would be holding the front page until after the 7pm statement. It may prove more dramatic than the budget.
    What happens at 7 pm ?
    Matt Hancock is giving a statement.
    Surely he will try not to steal Sunak's thunder?
    He's just been given a £30bn budget and he is going to tell us how he is going to spend it. I expect him to recommend a series of protective measures re crowds, events etc as well which sports authorities will then no doubt follow up.
    It's actually £12bn (although obviously it's still a lot!)

    See here: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2020/mar/11/budget-2020-rishi-sunak-pmqs-boris-johnson-chairs-cabinet-ahead-of-rishi-sunak-unveiling-his-first-budget-live-newsrish?page=with:block-5e68f9068f087df56e4c6829#block-5e68f9068f087df56e4c6829
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,218

    Some really sad tales from Italy of people stuck in their homes with their dead relatives.

    Of course, that happens here too.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    CatMan said:

    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Did you not hear? We want a government that is going to GET IT DONE.

    Until we don't of course.

    Can it Get Coronavirus Done, please.
    That would be nice. If I was a newspaper editor I would be holding the front page until after the 7pm statement. It may prove more dramatic than the budget.
    What happens at 7 pm ?
    Matt Hancock is giving a statement.
    Surely he will try not to steal Sunak's thunder?
    He's just been given a £30bn budget and he is going to tell us how he is going to spend it. I expect him to recommend a series of protective measures re crowds, events etc as well which sports authorities will then no doubt follow up.
    It's actually £12bn (although obviously it's still a lot!)

    See here: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2020/mar/11/budget-2020-rishi-sunak-pmqs-boris-johnson-chairs-cabinet-ahead-of-rishi-sunak-unveiling-his-first-budget-live-newsrish?page=with:block-5e68f9068f087df56e4c6829#block-5e68f9068f087df56e4c6829
    It’s whatever it takes.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,767
  • GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123
    IshmaelZ said:

    "WHO has been assessing this outbreak around the clock and we are deeply concerned both by the alarming levels of spread and severity, and by the alarming levels of inaction"-
    @DrTedros
    #COVID19
    4:26 PM · Mar 11, 2020·

    https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1237776967526764544

    Perhaps they should look at their own response.

    Pulling the pandemic card out two weeks ago might have prompted more action and less inaction?
  • Oh FFS

    White House told federal health agency to classify coronavirus deliberations

    The White House has ordered federal health officials to treat top-level coronavirus meetings as classified, an unusual step that has restricted information and hampered the U.S. government’s response to the contagion, according to four Trump administration officials.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-secrecy-exclusive/exclusive-white-house-told-federal-health-agency-to-classify-coronavirus-deliberations-sources-idUSKBN20Y2LM
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,767
    edited March 2020
    eadric said:
    "WHO says nothing like this has ever been seen before."

    So worse than 2018-19?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,570
    Pulpstar said:


    Their own estimates when they prepared the changes were that about 66% of existing contractors were legitimately outside IR35 and 34% inside. The aim was (quite rightly) to catch the 34%.

    So 34% of contractors were basically taking the piss out of the system ? No wonder the Gov't changed it. Laws aren't made up for the law abiding majority...
    No they weren't. That was HMRC's estimate but every time they took cases to court they lost. That was the main driver behind the change. If the law won't back you then find someone you can threaten who will do it instead. In this case it was the clients themselves.
  • GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123
    Scott_xP said:
    Slowing the pandemic curve, Asian versus Western style.

    But they are stupid and do daft things like wearing masks.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    eadric said:
    Hyperbole much. Why does everything these days have to be the worst ever?

    If this turns out to be worse than the black death i'll eat a hat.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Did you not hear? We want a government that is going to GET IT DONE.

    Until we don't of course.

    Can it Get Coronavirus Done, please.
    That would be nice. If I was a newspaper editor I would be holding the front page until after the 7pm statement. It may prove more dramatic than the budget.
    What happens at 7 pm ?
    Hancocks Half Hour
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    What is incredible about the US is that during the more serious moments of Trump presidency e.g. Iran stuff, it seems like the grown-ups in the room managed to convince him to make the correct decisions.

    With this, it is like they choose the worst possible option.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    Scott_xP said:
    Slowing the pandemic curve, Asian versus Western style.

    But they are stupid and do daft things like wearing masks.
    They were only wearing masks, or did they do other things to restrict it too?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:



    The Government have killed contracting across large swathes of business.

    Their own estimates when they prepared the changes were that about 66% of existing contractors were legitimately outside IR35 and 34% inside. The aim was (quite rightly) to catch the 34%.

    The end user companies who are now responsible have taken one look at the penalties they would be liable to pay if they incorrectly assess someone as being outside when they should be in and have thought 'bugger that'.

    As a result the companies have now said that only 14% of contractors are legitimately outside IR35 and have pulled 86% of them inside. This has often involved going against the advice of the specialist accountancy and legal firms like Qdos who are there to assess all the contractors.

    Worse still they have said that those contractors who are inside IR35 will be deducted not only the employees PAYE and NI but also the employers as well.

    It is a real cluster and will cost HMRC a very large amount of revenue.

    Edit, worth pointing out that I have been assessed as being outside so I am one of the lucky few.

    Mrs Stodge has been badly affected by this.

    She contracts within the financial sector and has for many years. It works for her and has allowed her the flexibility to visit her family in NZ for an extended period.

    What I resent is the notion contractors are somehow tax avoiders. She pays Corporation Tax and has to pay Insurance as well as her Agency. She has no job security, no sick pay, no holiday pay and no pension through her employment.

    What she has is years of expertise having worked in financial compliance across a number of large and medium banks including investment banks.

    This has upset her and it is absurdly short-sighted and vindictive.
    IANAE but as I understand it the key is whether you really have a business or are really engaged by a single employer. My understanding is that if you have 4 or 5 clients then you are outside. If you have 1 you are inside. If you are in between it might depend on how material some of them are. Someone who is working as a consultant across several banks should be ok unless they are basically working for them 1 at a time.
    Unfortunately not. Each client has to assess their contractors separately. So you can be in a situation where 3 clients say you are legitimately outside IR35 and a 4th decides you are in. It all depends on the specific relationship you have with that client. Or at least it should. What it actually has ended up depending on his how risk averse the clients are.
    Some of my friends do work for various professional disciplinary bodies. They are getting dragged into this and they are not even incorporated. It’s a mess.
  • GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123
    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Slowing the pandemic curve, Asian versus Western style.

    But they are stupid and do daft things like wearing masks.
    They were only wearing masks, or did they do other things to restrict it too?
    They are doing a full policy of things. None of which we have enacted yet.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited March 2020
    What we can learn from Italy's response to coronavirus -- Italian ambassador to UK

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrsu5OVlGvg
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    Italy numbers today are really important, if sub 2k then it's pretty good news. If 3k+ then very bad.
  • eadric said:
    We have had times when we fail to agree but credit where it is due in forecasting a pandemic

    And Trump is a bigger danger than anyone on the planet to life in the US and worldwide
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Slowing the pandemic curve, Asian versus Western style.

    But they are stupid and do daft things like wearing masks.
    They were only wearing masks, or did they do other things to restrict it too?
    They are doing a full policy of things. None of which we have enacted yet.
    Sure, I just don't get why face masks was highlighted, since it probably has the smallest effect of all the measures enacted.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    The number of positive cases of the coronavirus in Scotland was 36 as of Wednesday morning, including the first case of the virus being transmitted within the community, up nine in 24 hours.

    Previously, the cases of the virus have been traced to people travelling to affected areas.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited March 2020
    Chameleon said:

    Italy numbers today are really important, if sub 2k then it's pretty good news. If 3k+ then very bad.

    That's roughly around what I was thinking.

    However, without wanting to sound morbid, I'm particularly interested in the death rates from Italy.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    eadric said:

    RobD said:

    eadric said:
    Hyperbole much. Why does everything these days have to be the worst ever?

    If this turns out to be worse than the black death i'll eat a hat.
    Can you not actually read?

    He doesn't say it's the "worst thing ever", he says we haven't seen anything like before, which is precisely and scientifically true: we have not seen a coronavirus with this toxic combination of lethality, contagiousness, persistence in the body, and aysymptomatic transmission. All these taken together make it a unique threat.


    I had assumed "nothing like this" refers to all types of diseases, not a specific type of disease. Of course it is the worst ever of this type of coronavirus.
  • Dow breaks breaks 24,000

    Down 4.60% to 23,865
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited March 2020
    'Lack of resolve' in some countries, says WHO...

    All the reports from Italy is people still are taking his "lock-down" as kinda of optional. And then you have the US....
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,767

    eadric said:
    We have had times when we fail to agree but credit where it is due in forecasting a pandemic

    And Trump is a bigger danger than anyone on the planet to life in the US and worldwide
    Time for the 25th.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Scott_xP said:
    Slowing the pandemic curve, Asian versus Western style.

    But they are stupid and do daft things like wearing masks.
    Looking at that graph we've slowed the curve too - and its not due to an absence in testing missing cases.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    Chameleon said:

    Italy numbers today are really important, if sub 2k then it's pretty good news. If 3k+ then very bad.

    I fear that they are going to be bad. The indication yesterday was that the numbers were not in fact complete, bad as they were.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    Scott_xP said:
    Slowing the pandemic curve, Asian versus Western style.

    But they are stupid and do daft things like wearing masks.
    Looking at that graph we've slowed the curve too - and its not due to an absence in testing missing cases.
    One thing that bugs me about that chart: shouldn't all the countries start at 100?
  • I'd say I'm a professional mask wearer. I've spent fecking hours in various types, from the simple paper dust mask type right up to full GTS. We use personalised respirators now, face fitted individually to ensure a correct fit, with replaceable filters depending on the hazard we're facing. . Most people don't know how to wear even the most simple style and soon get fed up and end up wearing it half arsed. Even a correctly fitted mask is uncomfortable after just a few minutes and Joe Public just won't have the discipline to keep it on. I'd say SeanT is correct that it would help stop the spread of bodily fluids as they are excellent at catching snot and corruption, but once you've sneezed or vomited in a mask, it soon comes off.
    It feels like the wheels are gonna come off at any moment to me. I expect we will be on emergency calls only very soon, and if it hits hard, rural areas will have bugger all fire cover.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    edited March 2020
    Sky

    US considering total ban on flights between the EU and US

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Dr Harries is a class act. Interesting in her comments about timing. The lockdown is coming I would say, but she and her colleagues will declare it at some point and I'd back them to make a better job of enforcing it than the Italians.
    Indeed. That's what the people insisting "shutdown now!" don't grasp - the Italians did that and it backfired terrible.

    The UK has slowed the curve compared to other countries already with our testing and tracing and isolation. No doubt they're planning for a shutdown too which is coming - but when it comes expect it to be implemented better.

    While cases are so miniscule at the minute taking time to plan to do this properly is smart.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. Stodge, I know very little of this sort of thing, but the mismanagement of the policy sounds utterly unnecessary and horrendous.

    Reminds me, writ large, of when the EU's VATmess (as it was dubbed) tried to gouge money from the likes of Amazon but ended up causing micro-businesses and SMEs to flock to marketplaces. Like Amazon.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    RobD said:

    Sky

    US considering total ban on flights between the EU and US

    Good news for the EU.
    LOL! :grin:
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    edited March 2020

    Dr Harries is a class act. Interesting in her comments about timing. The lockdown is coming I would say, but she and her colleagues will declare it at some point and I'd back them to make a better job of enforcing it than the Italians.
    And they'll get pilloried for not doing it sooner no matter the reasoning. And people will pretend those saying listen to advice were claiming it would never happen.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Dow breaks breaks 24,000

    Down 4.60% to 23,865

    My monthly investing instructions executed today.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Slowing the pandemic curve, Asian versus Western style.

    But they are stupid and do daft things like wearing masks.
    Looking at that graph we've slowed the curve too - and its not due to an absence in testing missing cases.
    One thing that bugs me about that chart: shouldn't all the countries start at 100?
    No. Its first day at 100+

    If hypothetically they one day had 97 cases then the next day had 156 cases then they'd start at 156.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Slowing the pandemic curve, Asian versus Western style.

    But they are stupid and do daft things like wearing masks.
    Looking at that graph we've slowed the curve too - and its not due to an absence in testing missing cases.
    One thing that bugs me about that chart: shouldn't all the countries start at 100?
    No. Its first day at 100+

    If hypothetically they one day had 97 cases then the next day had 156 cases then they'd start at 156.
    Thanks - now I get it. Only really changes the bottom part of the chart anyway, I suppose.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    eadric said:

    Sky

    US considering total ban on flights between the EU and US

    Sorry to blat on, but you mocked me for predicting exactly this, a week ago
    I predicted this, but coming from the FCO not the US.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    Chameleon said:
    Air conditioned.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    Italy numbers today are really important, if sub 2k then it's pretty good news. If 3k+ then very bad.

    I fear that they are going to be bad. The indication yesterday was that the numbers were not in fact complete, bad as they were.
    Containment only really started in Italy a day or two ago. Early days to say it has or hasn't worked.
    There was a virologist on yesterday morning. His assumption was still that about 80% of us were going to get this, maybe over as long as 4 years. It put the containment into perspective. What China and SK have done is bring the spread now to a virtual stop by aggressive action. But the virus is still there. When the containment slides it will, if that virologist is right, pick up again. In this scenario the Chinese etc are not so much flattening the curve as creating a series of humps.

    This seems to be the government's assumption too. Talking of having 20% of our workforce off "at any one time" as the Chancellor did today indicates more than 6m people of working age either infected or contained to prevent spread. This is vastly bigger than anything seen in any country to date in terms of cases if not lock down. Italy currently has 168 cases per million. The government are indicating scenarios when that might be in the low hundreds of thousands.

    My imagination fails me at that point. When you see what has happened in Italy at the current level of infection I cannot imagine 10 or 100 times more. I just don't believe it but it may be because I just don't want to.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,767
    TGOHF666 said:
    Who is cheering on the pandemic?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,359

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    geoffw said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT

    TGOHF666 said:
    Wow, big news!

    And given the oaf across the pond, simply doing it but not making a big deal about it could be a smart move.

    Eliminating business rates but having a tax like this replace it is massively productive and beneficial.
    And how do we collect/assess this exactly? I mean, don't get me wrong, I think that the mainly US internet giants are parasitical, feeding off our society but putting very little back. I am just not sure how we audit what Google earns off search engines in the UK. They may not even know themselves.
    I bet they do know themselves.
    I am sure that they can produce accounts showing anything from a loss to a profit of a billion. How will we know if they are right? We cannot audit them. Its not like buying a takeaway and seeing if it shows up in the VAT return.
    Is it not? With Making Tax Digital don't the government have all sorts of information it never used to have?

    Takeaway reports it in its VAT return that they've paid Google.

    Google doesn't report the income in its return.

    Google has an issue that HMRC can investigate.

    Or is the system not that clever?
    I don't think it is now but the Chancellor did give a boost to HMRC in pursuit of "aggressive" tax avoidance. Hopefully they will not spend it all on IR35 cases.
    The Government have killed contracting across large swathes of business.

    Their own estimates when they prepared the changes were that about 66% of existing contractors were legitimately outside IR35 and 34% inside. The aim was (quite rightly) to catch the 34%.

    The end user companies who are now responsible have taken one look at the penalties they would be liable to pay if they incorrectly assess someone as being outside when they should be in and have thought 'bugger that'.

    As a result the companies have now said that only 14% of contractors are legitimately outside IR35 and have pulled 86% of them inside. This has often involved going against the advice of the specialist accountancy and legal firms like Qdos who are there to assess all the contractors.

    Worse still they have said that those contractors who are inside IR35 will be deducted not only the employees PAYE and NI but also the employers as well.

    It is a real cluster and will cost HMRC a very large amount of revenue.

    Edit, worth pointing out that I have been assessed as being outside so I am one of the lucky few.
    Richard , what makes you inside or outside
    A whole host of things.

    Basically for me it is the accumulated effect of working on specific projects where I have a scope of work and then have complete freedom over how and where I deliver (barring an agreed delivery date). As I said yesterday this means that I can, if I chose, do 95% of my work from home and, for reasons of practicality, only need to visit the client office for about 5%. I am providing expert advice and reports and the client, other than accepting the reports/advice, has no control over the work I do. They are effectively paying me for the results not for the work done.

    There is other stuff that helps. I can, if I wish, walk away and have no requirement to do other work. I can get someone else to do the work and I have no managerial or financial involvement with the client. Apart from paying me for the work already delivered as per the contract, the clients can just dump me at any time and without notice. Something that looks to be a possibility at the moment with the oil price and Covid shutdown looming.

    I am at the more extreme end of the Contractor/Employee spectrum but there are a lot of people further along towards the middle. The point of the assessments was supposed to be to make sure people were properly assigned. Unfortunately companies have not taken it that way for fear of the consequences of getting it wrong.

    Thanks
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Scott_xP said:
    Slowing the pandemic curve, Asian versus Western style.

    But they are stupid and do daft things like wearing masks.
    What chart are you looking at? I see the UK doing better than S Korea, and worse than Japan/HK/Singapore. And Italy only slightly worse than S Korea.

    Also the Japanese line seems to have what I would describe as the equivalent of an asterisk next to it.
This discussion has been closed.