Our daughter in law and her mother (from Vancouver) yesterday cancelled their land trip to Australia and later cruise to New Zealand departing on monday.
We have decided to cancel our trip to Vancouver in May as we are both high risk and when I cancelled air porter at Heathrow said they were receiving lots of cancellation.
Next week HMG looks as if it is going to issue travel advice to the high risk category, (like both of us) to avoid public transport
On that advice I will seek refund of my BA tickets under cancellation clause, as I have already cancelled the hotel free of charge and have had the rail fares refunded
IMHO the economic dislocation is going to be far worse than the virus
As someone else said elsewhere on thread, the government measures in budget will be about bridging, bridging between when demand bounces back whilst so much of service industry, from hotels and hospitality to hairdressers and Greggs get zero customers. I would be flabbergasted if government doesn’t dramatically lift unemployment benefits and provide other help for those living on the breadline. And later in year when we are in recession, country’s round the world will be spending money. 53 new aircraft and 49 new destroyers etc. 🙂
But what about you, what does isolation really mean? Telegraph says hug good bye to your relatives for a while as you keep social distance. What about visit to hairdressers, supermarket, saying hi to your neighbours just back from Tenerife?
It’s easy to say “you oldies keep your social distance”. And it makes sense. But just how practical or even doable is it?
Actually it is not too difficult but then we do not socialise anyway
Of course, even isolating ourselves does not prevent us catching the virus, it just makes it less likely
Castro looks like a good VP pick on most grounds, only problem might be his surname for low information voters
I dont recall seeing this phrase 'low information voters' until recently but now its everywhere. Is it some new psephological euphemism that has caught on regarding people who dont pay much attention?
Polite way of saying DUMB THICKOS and not getting pilloried.
I’m hardly Boris Johnson’s biggest fan but he’s doing just fine over Covid-19 at present. He’s made one deranged decision, which is to refuse to work closely with the EU on this, but otherwise the government have so far done all that they reasonably could be expected to do.
Well I certainly agree that we should not be a party of the centre. That's the LibDems. We are a Democratic Socialist party, but that doesn't mean we need to portray ourselves as a bunch of loons fixated on issues that mean nothing to the vast majority of voters.
The natural centre of gravity of the Labour Party is soft left. We have oscillated about this point, but I think after this leadership election the seesaw will be back in balance.
But Moron opposes shifting the party towards the centre. Like from where Blair won GEs. I don’t want Labour to win GEs, but I do want them to put the fear of god into the Tories that they might....
That’s not “The Guardian”, it’s an idiot who writes for The Guardian. Jenkins has form. What a fool.
But the general tone of his article is right. There have been similar panics before, and they have proved false, or the problem has been solved before we reached disaster.
This doesn’t mean a disaster isn’t possible, of course. But it does mean we should try and maintain a balanced view. We are after all still waiting for the post-Brexit national collapse that a certain PB’er was predicting in the days after he had just voted for it.
That is no longer true, if it ever was. I can't remember "similar panics," what were they about?
Instead of going "hurr hurr hurr eadric" perhaps accept that the good Dr Fox probably knows more about what we can likely expect, than the rest of the board combined. What sort of tone do you think he is setting?
I think that previous medical panics over AIDS in the eighties* and BSE in the nineties didn't become catastrophic was precisely because appropriate action was taken, not that there was no threat.
Those diseases had a much slower incubation period, so there was time to act. Much less so with the much faster moving Coronavirus.
In any case, self preservation is kicking in. It won't take government action to clamp down on unnecessary travel, large crowds and public events as people are socially distancing already. Government instructions might well be helpful to guide decisions, and also for insurance to kick in. Some bridging relief for affected sectors should be a key part of the budget. So as to lessen the economic hit.
I forgot to put in my footnote.
*While HIV/AIDS was contained by appropriate measures in the UK, denial and lack of action in Sub Saharan Africa was catastrophic, with millions dead as a result. We should not copy that approach.
HIV also probably started as an animal virus that made the cross species jump too.
Good points. On the political spat which seems to have developed on thread, I don’t see how this will damage Johnson particularly (irrespective of my dislike for him). So far he’s mainly got out of the way of the experts, and preparations appear sensible. Trump, on the other hand, is actively contradicting the advice of his own experts, and is undeniably responsible for a degradation in the US pandemic response capability before the outbreak even happened. People will die as a result of his actions.
Fair comment and my dislike of Trump is turning to real anger
You have a glimpse about how some of us feel about Boris.
I am fully aware of your position on Boris
Indeed, you used to share it.
Times change and right now he is dealing with covid 19 well and believes in trusting his ministers. Furthermore his domestic agenda in levelling up the north is spot on
Boris cares about Boris. Sometimes your interests may temporarily align with his. But not someone to rely on. If you’re in his way carnage. I cite the career of Theresa May.
A week is a long time in politics but as of now Boris, and I would also say Hancock, are dealing well with covid 19
Well I certainly agree that we should not be a party of the centre. That's the LibDems. We are a Democratic Socialist party, but that doesn't mean we need to portray ourselves as a bunch of loons fixated on issues that mean nothing to the vast majority of voters.
The natural centre of gravity of the Labour Party is soft left. We have oscillated about this point, but I think after this leadership election the seesaw will be back in balance.
But note: the primary success came when it oscillated towards the centre right under Blair.
It fronted up as centrist, but a lot of the Socialism sneaked through when people were debating Blair's choice of coffee mug for an appearance in Downing Street.
Our daughter in law and her mother (from Vancouver) yesterday cancelled their land trip to Australia and later cruise to New Zealand departing on monday.
We have decided to cancel our trip to Vancouver in May as we are both high risk and when I cancelled air porter at Heathrow said they were receiving lots of cancellation.
Next week HMG looks as if it is going to issue travel advice to the high risk category, (like both of us) to avoid public transport
On that advice I will seek refund of my BA tickets under cancellation clause, as I have already cancelled the hotel free of charge and have had the rail fares refunded
IMHO the economic dislocation is going to be far worse than the virus
As someone else said elsewhere on thread, the government measures in budget will be about bridging, bridging between when demand bounces back whilst so much of service industry, from hotels and hospitality to hairdressers and Greggs get zero customers. I would be flabbergasted if government doesn’t dramatically lift unemployment benefits and provide other help for those living on the breadline. And later in year when we are in recession, country’s round the world will be spending money. 53 new aircraft and 49 new destroyers etc. 🙂
But what about you, what does isolation really mean? Telegraph says hug good bye to your relatives for a while as you keep social distance. What about visit to hairdressers, supermarket, saying hi to your neighbours just back from Tenerife?
It’s easy to say “you oldies keep your social distance”. And it makes sense. But just how practical or even doable is it?
We are just going to have to learn to accept phone calls/emails/Skype are as good as being in the room giving a hug. For now. Technology has at least givien us that option. Normality will resume, but being physically apart doesn't mean people are no longer loved.
With 140,000 people tested, the country’s mortality rate is just over 0.6 per cent compared to the 3.4 per cent global average reported by the WHO
Dumbos prefer the panic and predictions of mass deaths rather than having to admit that the numbers having it are grossly underestimated, it also suits WHO to bum it up and get themselves lot more funds etc. Lots of profits will be made out of this for sure by some unscrupulous barstewards.
That’s not “The Guardian”, it’s an idiot who writes for The Guardian. Jenkins has form. What a fool.
But the general tone of his article is right. There have been similar panics before, and they have proved false, or the problem has been solved before we reached disaster.
This doesn’t mean a disaster isn’t possible, of course. But it does mean we should try and maintain a balanced view. We are after all still waiting for the post-Brexit national collapse that a certain PB’er was predicting in the days after he had just voted for it.
That is no longer true, if it ever was. I can't remember "similar panics," what were they about?
Instead of going "hurr hurr hurr eadric" perhaps accept that the good Dr Fox probably knows more about what we can likely expect, than the rest of the board combined. What sort of tone do you think he is setting?
I think that previous medical panics over AIDS in the eighties* and BSE in the nineties didn't become catastrophic was precisely because appropriate action was taken, not that there was no threat.
Those diseases had a much slower incubation period, so there was time to act. Much less so with the much faster moving Coronavirus.
In any case, self preservation is kicking in. It won't take government action to clamp down on unnecessary travel, large crowds and public events as people are socially distancing already. Government instructions might well be helpful to guide decisions, and also for insurance to kick in. Some bridging relief for affected sectors should be a key part of the budget. So as to lessen the economic hit.
I forgot to put in my footnote.
*While HIV/AIDS was contained by appropriate measures in the UK, denial and lack of action in Sub Saharan Africa was catastrophic, with millions dead as a result. We should not copy that approach.
HIV also probably started as an animal virus that made the cross species jump too.
Good points. On the political spat which seems to have developed on thread, I don’t see how this will damage Johnson particularly (irrespective of my dislike for him). So far he’s mainly got out of the way of the experts, and preparations appear sensible. Trump, on the other hand, is actively contradicting the advice of his own experts, and is undeniably responsible for a degradation in the US pandemic response capability before the outbreak even happened. People will die as a result of his actions.
Fair comment and my dislike of Trump is turning to real anger
You have a glimpse about how some of us feel about Boris.
I am fully aware of your position on Boris
Indeed, you used to share it.
Times change and right now he is dealing with covid 19 well and believes in trusting his ministers. Furthermore his domestic agenda in levelling up the north is spot on
Boris cares about Boris. Sometimes your interests may temporarily align with his. But not someone to rely on. If you’re in his way carnage. I cite the career of Theresa May.
A week is a long time in politics but as of now Boris, and I would also say Hancock, are dealing well with covid 19
Hancock telling bare faced lies live on air is doing well?
That’s not “The Guardian”, it’s an idiot who writes for The Guardian. Jenkins has form. What a fool.
But the general tone of his article is right. There have been similar panics before, and they have proved false, or the problem has been solved before we reached disaster.
This doesn’t mean a disaster isn’t possible, of course. But it does mean we should try and maintain a balanced view. We are after all still waiting for the post-Brexit national collapse that a certain PB’er was predicting in the days after he had just voted for it.
That is no longer true, if it ever was. I can't remember "similar panics," what were they about?
Instead of going "hurr hurr hurr eadric" perhaps accept that the good Dr Fox probably knows more about what we can likely expect, than the rest of the board combined. What sort of tone do you think he is setting?
I think that previous medical panics over AIDS in the eighties* and BSE in the nineties didn't become catastrophic was precisely because appropriate action was taken, not that there was no threat.
Those diseases had a much slower incubation period, so there was time to act. Much less so with the much faster moving Coronavirus.
In any case, self preservation is kicking in. It won't take government action to clamp down on unnecessary travel, large crowds and public events as people are socially distancing already. Government instructions might well be helpful to guide decisions, and also for insurance to kick in. Some bridging relief for affected sectors should be a key part of the budget. So as to lessen the economic hit.
I forgot to put in my footnote.
*While HIV/AIDS was contained by appropriate measures in the UK, denial and lack of action in Sub Saharan Africa was catastrophic, with millions dead as a result. We should not copy that approach.
HIV also probably started as an animal virus that made the cross species jump too.
Good points. On the political spat which seems to have developed on thread, I don’t see how this will damage Johnson particularly (irrespective of my dislike for him). So far he’s mainly got out of the way of the experts, and preparations appear sensible. Trump, on the other hand, is actively contradicting the advice of his own experts, and is undeniably responsible for a degradation in the US pandemic response capability before the outbreak even happened. People will die as a result of his actions.
Fair comment and my dislike of Trump is turning to real anger
You have a glimpse about how some of us feel about Boris.
I am fully aware of your position on Boris
Indeed, you used to share it.
Times change and right now he is dealing with covid 19 well and believes in trusting his ministers. Furthermore his domestic agenda in levelling up the north is spot on
Boris cares about Boris. Sometimes your interests may temporarily align with his. But not someone to rely on. If you’re in his way carnage. I cite the career of Theresa May.
A week is a long time in politics but as of now Boris, and I would also say Hancock, are dealing well with covid 19
You cannot trust a syllable the man utters. So things might be good, things might be bad, we have no way of knowing. I would hope that Boris will see dealing with the virus as in his interests, so we might be ok. That’s as good as it gets.
Boris will never meet with your approval so admitting we might be ok is a good start
I’m hardly Boris Johnson’s biggest fan but he’s doing just fine over Covid-19 at present. He’s made one deranged decision, which is to refuse to work closely with the EU on this, but otherwise the government have so far done all that they reasonably could be expected to do.
In fairness, what from the EU, let alone individual EU countries would you have us learn?
I’m hardly Boris Johnson’s biggest fan but he’s doing just fine over Covid-19 at present. He’s made one deranged decision, which is to refuse to work closely with the EU on this, but otherwise the government have so far done all that they reasonably could be expected to do.
In fairness, what from the EU, let alone individual EU countries would you have us learn?
I don’t care if they’ve got one scientist with his feet on a desk drawing on a cigarette, ideologically refusing to work with them in the face of a looming pandemic is certifiably mad.
That’s not “The Guardian”, it’s an idiot who writes for The Guardian. Jenkins has form. What a fool.
But the general tone of his article is right. There have been similar panics before, and they have proved false, or the problem has been solved before we reached disaster.
This doesn’t mean a disaster isn’t possible, of course. But it does mean we should try and maintain a balanced view. We are after all still waiting for the post-Brexit national collapse that a certain PB’er was predicting in the days after he had just voted for it.
That is no longer true, if it ever was. I can't remember "similar panics," what were they about?
Instead of going "hurr hurr hurr eadric" perhaps accept that the good Dr Fox probably knows more about what we can likely expect, than the rest of the board combined. What sort of tone do you think he is setting?
I think that previous medical panics over AIDS in the eighties* and BSE in the nineties didn't become catastrophic was precisely because appropriate action was taken, not that there was no threat.
Those diseases had a much slower incubation period, so there was time to act. Much less so with the much faster moving Coronavirus.
In any case, self preservation is kicking in. It won't take government action to clamp down on unnecessary travel, large crowds and public events as people are socially distancing already. Government instructions might well be helpful to guide decisions, and also for insurance to kick in. Some bridging relief for affected sectors should be a key part of the budget. So as to lessen the economic hit.
I forgot to put in my footnote.
*While HIV/AIDS was contained by appropriate measures in the UK, denial and lack of action in Sub Saharan Africa was catastrophic, with millions dead as a result. We should not copy that approach.
HIV also probably started as an animal virus that made the cross species jump too.
Good points. On the political spat which seems to have developed on thread, I don’t see how this will damage Johnson particularly (irrespective of my dislike for him). So far he’s mainly got out of the way of the experts, and preparations appear sensible. Trump, on the other hand, is actively contradicting the advice of his own experts, and is undeniably responsible for a degradation in the US pandemic response capability before the outbreak even happened. People will die as a result of his actions.
Fair comment and my dislike of Trump is turning to real anger
You have a glimpse about how some of us feel about Boris.
I am fully aware of your position on Boris
Indeed, you used to share it.
Times change and right now he is dealing with covid 19 well and believes in trusting his ministers. Furthermore his domestic agenda in levelling up the north is spot on
Boris cares about Boris. Sometimes your interests may temporarily align with his. But not someone to rely on. If you’re in his way carnage. I cite the career of Theresa May.
Almost the very definition of Crocodile Tears ... Jonathan mourning Theresa May.
Boris cares about Boris. Sure. Unsurprisingly, self-interest and self-love is a common denominator among our politicians.
Tony cares about Tony. Donald cares about Donald. Emmanuel cares about Emmanuel.
Why have the Dems ended up with Muddled Joe, when there were better, younger, abler candidates who would pulverise Donald?
Those pathetics trying to dismiss this as 'little more than flu' remind me of the stay-at-home armchair generals in World War One who remained oblivious to the situation in the trenches, even when men were dropping like flies.
That’s not “The Guardian”, it’s an idiot who writes for The Guardian. Jenkins has form. What a fool.
But the general tone of his article is right. There have been similar panics before, and they have proved false, or the problem has been solved before we reached disaster.
This doesn’t mean a disaster isn’t possible, of course. But it does mean we should try and maintain a balanced view. We are after all still waiting for the post-Brexit national collapse that a certain PB’er was predicting in the days after he had just voted for it.
Isn’t it a sign of how far the Labour (and Democratic) parties have fallen away as serious opposition?
Left wingers are now left praying for plague, global warming and Brexit to bring down the Boris, Trump governments that they despise.
They don’t even trust our wonderful infallible NHS to save us all.
Loving the idea that Simon Jenkins is left wing!!!!
Boris is certainly overdue his comeuppance, but Coronavirus is not it. Boris has done quite enough harm already. Let’s hope he gets the response right, or at least lets those that know what their doing get on with the job unhindered by his sound bites and Machiavellian politicking.
Johnson being bone idle and totally uninterested in details is currently a huge advantage. It means the experts can get on with things without having to second guess the potential for political interference.
While there will be political decisions still to take, I guess we are learning a key difference between Boris and Trump (there were already plenty in fairness) is that while both love attention, Boris has repeatedly shown he can keep his head down when he wants to, and his ego does not require him to dominate a situation like this which others are better suited for.
You mean he is f***ing useless and hides. At least Trump tries to do something even if it is the wrong thing. Trump is head and shoulders above cowardly Boris.
You cannot be serious.
I cannot stand cowards who hide behind the sofa and get someone else to lie for them , Trump being a total arse has at least the cojones to front things himself and take it on the chin. As they say you can trust a thief but you cannot trust a liar.
I’m hardly Boris Johnson’s biggest fan but he’s doing just fine over Covid-19 at present. He’s made one deranged decision, which is to refuse to work closely with the EU on this, but otherwise the government have so far done all that they reasonably could be expected to do.
In fairness, what from the EU, let alone individual EU countries would you have us learn?
It occurred to me the other day that this is a good example for "intergovernmental" in the old exam question: "to what extent is the EU an intergovernmental or supranational body?"
Those pathetics trying to dismiss this as 'little more than flu' remind me of the stay-at-home armchair generals in World War One who remained oblivious to the situation in the trenches, even when men were dropping like flies.
That’s not “The Guardian”, it’s an idiot who writes for The Guardian. Jenkins has form. What a fool.
But the general tone of his article is right. There have been similar panics before, and they have proved false, or the problem has been solved before we reached disaster.
This doesn’t mean a disaster isn’t possible, of course. But it does mean we should try and maintain a balanced view. We are after all still waiting for the post-Brexit national collapse that a certain PB’er was predicting in the days after he had just voted for it.
Isn’t it a sign of how far the Labour (and Democratic) parties have fallen away as serious opposition?
Left wingers are now left praying for plague, global warming and Brexit to bring down the Boris, Trump governments that they despise.
They don’t even trust our wonderful infallible NHS to save us all.
Loving the idea that Simon Jenkins is left wing!!!!
Boris is certainly overdue his comeuppance, but Coronavirus is not it. Boris has done quite enough harm already. Let’s hope he gets the response right, or at least lets those that know what their doing get on with the job unhindered by his sound bites and Machiavellian politicking.
Johnson being bone idle and totally uninterested in details is currently a huge advantage. It means the experts can get on with things without having to second guess the potential for political interference.
While there will be political decisions still to take, I guess we are learning a key difference between Boris and Trump (there were already plenty in fairness) is that while both love attention, Boris has repeatedly shown he can keep his head down when he wants to, and his ego does not require him to dominate a situation like this which others are better suited for.
You mean he is f***ing useless and hides. At least Trump tries to do something even if it is the wrong thing. Trump is head and shoulders above cowardly Boris.
You cannot be serious.
I cannot stand cowards who hide behind the sofa and get someone else to lie for them , Trump being a total arse has at least the cojones to front things himself and take it on the chin. As they say you can trust a thief but you cannot trust a liar.
Never mind Malc.
Next week has Salmond on trial to keep your attention
Our daughter in law and her mother (from Vancouver) yesterday cancelled their land trip to Australia and later cruise to New Zealand departing on monday.
We have decided to cancel our trip to Vancouver in May as we are both high risk and when I cancelled air porter at Heathrow said they were receiving lots of cancellation.
Next week HMG looks as if it is going to issue travel advice to the high risk category, (like both of us) to avoid public transport
On that advice I will seek refund of my BA tickets under cancellation clause, as I have already cancelled the hotel free of charge and have had the rail fares refunded
IMHO the economic dislocation is going to be far worse than the virus
As someone else said elsewhere on thread, the government measures in budget will be about bridging, bridging between when demand bounces back whilst so much of service industry, from hotels and hospitality to hairdressers and Greggs get zero customers. I would be flabbergasted if government doesn’t dramatically lift unemployment benefits and provide other help for those living on the breadline. And later in year when we are in recession, country’s round the world will be spending money. 53 new aircraft and 49 new destroyers etc. 🙂
But what about you, what does isolation really mean? Telegraph says hug good bye to your relatives for a while as you keep social distance. What about visit to hairdressers, supermarket, saying hi to your neighbours just back from Tenerife?
It’s easy to say “you oldies keep your social distance”. And it makes sense. But just how practical or even doable is it?
Id guess it is fairly easy for a couple of weeks, could even make it enjoyable. A couple of months will start to see physical and mental declines which may or not be worth it vs coronavirus. Longer than that and it probably isnt worth it imo.
So timing your self-isolation is critical, dont waste it now when the number infected is in the hundreds or low thousands, wait until its in the hundreds of thousands plus. That way, hopefully you will never need it but would have prepared for it.
I’m hardly Boris Johnson’s biggest fan but he’s doing just fine over Covid-19 at present. He’s made one deranged decision, which is to refuse to work closely with the EU on this, but otherwise the government have so far done all that they reasonably could be expected to do.
In fairness, what from the EU, let alone individual EU countries would you have us learn?
I don’t care if they’ve got one scientist with his feet on a desk drawing on a cigarette, ideologically refusing to work with them in the face of a looming pandemic is certifiably mad.
Hang on, our government has to choose where to focus its efforts and attention on this. This is a global issue, so surely global bodies such as the WHO are the appropriate intergovernmental level.
With 140,000 people tested, the country’s mortality rate is just over 0.6 per cent compared to the 3.4 per cent global average reported by the WHO
The s Korea rate will probably go up as it takes a little while for people to die. I would guess it will go over 1% but not 2%. I'm also predicting an increase in the German death rate from 0%. There are several people in intensive care at the moment.
Nah, there's loads of evidence that Boris is lazy. However, as a PM, he delegates well (he did as mayor too), which is an advantage in a situation like this. It also means that (unlike May) he can concentrate on the crisis in hand and not let the rest of government freeze up because of control-freak tendencies demanding everything need the sign-off from No 10.
Whether that is consistent with Cummings being in No 10 is still an open question. We'll see. But Boris has little loyalty and Cummings has few friends.
Boris's role in the Covid-19 outbreak is
1. To have the right people in the right jobs. I believe we can have considerabe confidence in those he has in post - we aren't going to be yearning for the transfer window to buy Mike Pence.
2. Listen to experts. Stand by them in press conferences, where you are open to questions. Otherwise, let those people get on with their jobs in tandem with Ministers.
3. Act as the calm, rational, sensibly upbeat "we can beat this thing, people, if we all take sensible measures and wash our hands for twenty seconds" face of the Government.
4. Go out in a lab coat and meet those who are on the front line, giving them confidence that Government respects the job they are doing - and listening to whetever else they need from Government.
5. Chair the COBRA meeting that draws all these strands together. And if the messages coming back to that COBRA meeting require very difficult decisions to be taken - decisions that at the time may well be politically unpopular - then the job requires he must take them, decisively and without dither.
6. He must act as the nation's lucky rabbit's foot - and get us through this with the least impact on our way of life consistent with curtailing the virus.
How far over did he tell you to bend, by delegate you just mean abdicate his responsibilities and put some other clown up so that he can blame them when it goes pete Tong but take the credit if it is lucky enough to go ok.
I’m hardly Boris Johnson’s biggest fan but he’s doing just fine over Covid-19 at present. He’s made one deranged decision, which is to refuse to work closely with the EU on this, but otherwise the government have so far done all that they reasonably could be expected to do.
In fairness, what from the EU, let alone individual EU countries would you have us learn?
I don’t care if they’ve got one scientist with his feet on a desk drawing on a cigarette, ideologically refusing to work with them in the face of a looming pandemic is certifiably mad.
Much as I’m sure we could get stuck into the fight over face masks I suspect we’ve got better things to do:
Those pathetics trying to dismiss this as 'little more than flu' remind me of the stay-at-home armchair generals in World War One who remained oblivious to the situation in the trenches, even when men were dropping like flies.
That’s not “The Guardian”, it’s an idiot who writes for The Guardian. Jenkins has form. What a fool.
But the general tone of his article is right. There have been similar panics before, and they have proved false, or the problem has been solved before we reached disaster.
This doesn’t mean a disaster isn’t possible, of course. But it does mean we should try and maintain a balanced view. We are after all still waiting for the post-Brexit national collapse that a certain PB’er was predicting in the days after he had just voted for it.
Not exactly consistent with the precautionary primciple?
Sure, there've been worries about other deseases which didn't go on to be realised. But as the medical experts note, this one does have more potential than most to become a pandemic because: - low but not trivial death-rate, meaning it doesn't kill itself off by denying itself hosts; - moderate transmission capacity, seemingly - infectious before obvious symptoms occur, making it very hard to contain.
Sure, it could be worse. It's not a new bubonic plague. All the same, we can't just wish it away because the last one wasn't so bad. It's not the last one and needs to be addressed on its own merits.
It’s been described here as “the new Black Death” by one of the hyperbole merchants.
Castro looks like a good VP pick on most grounds, only problem might be his surname for low information voters
I dont recall seeing this phrase 'low information voters' until recently but now its everywhere. Is it some new psephological euphemism that has caught on regarding people who dont pay much attention?
Polite way of saying DUMB THICKOS and not getting pilloried.
You don’t have to be dumb to take no interest at all in politics. But no doubt there is a large overlap.
That’s not “The Guardian”, it’s an idiot who writes for The Guardian. Jenkins has form. What a fool.
But the general tone of his article is right. There have been similar panics before, and they have proved false, or the problem has been solved before we reached disaster.
This doesn’t mean a disaster isn’t possible, of course. But it does mean we should try and maintain a balanced view. We are after all still waiting for the post-Brexit national collapse that a certain PB’er was predicting in the days after he had just voted for it.
That is no longer true, if it ever was. I can't remember "similar panics," what were they about?
Instead of going "hurr hurr hurr eadric" perhaps accept that the good Dr Fox probably knows more about what we can likely expect, than the rest of the board combined. What sort of tone do you think he is setting?
I think that previous medical panics over AIDS in the eighties* and BSE in the nineties didn't become catastrophic was precisely because appropriate action was taken, not that there was no threat.
Those diseases had a much slower incubation period, so there was time to act. Much less so with the much faster moving Coronavirus.
In any case, self preservation is kicking in. It won't take government action to clamp down on unnecessary travel, large crowds and public events as people are socially distancing already. Government instructions might well be helpful to guide decisions, and also for insurance to kick in. Some bridging relief for affected sectors should be a key part of the budget. So as to lessen the economic hit.
I forgot to put in my footnote.
*While HIV/AIDS was contained by appropriate measures in the UK, denial and lack of action in Sub Saharan Africa was catastrophic, with millions dead as a result. We should not copy that approach.
HIV also probably started as an animal virus that made the cross species jump too.
Good points. On the political spat which seems to have developed on thread, I don’t see how this will damage Johnson particularly (irrespective of my dislike for him). So far he’s mainly got out of the way of the experts, and preparations appear sensible. Trump, on the other hand, is actively contradicting the advice of his own experts, and is undeniably responsible for a degradation in the US pandemic response capability before the outbreak even happened. People will die as a result of his actions.
Fair comment and my dislike of Trump is turning to real anger
You have a glimpse about how some of us feel about Boris.
I am fully aware of your position on Boris
Indeed, you used to share it.
Times change and right now he is dealing with covid 19 well and believes in trusting his ministers. Furthermore his domestic agenda in levelling up the north is spot on
G, I am afraid if you believe that you are easily fooled, the buffoon is well out of his depth and prefers hiding to action, apart from appearing dressed up as a clown once in a blue moon.
Malc. Your response is predictable but I am content as is a majority that the government is dealing with covid 19 well
That has yet to be seen G, so far they have done nothing other than spout a few platitudes, I am not confident these donkeys will be effective if it really is bad.
Those pathetics trying to dismiss this as 'little more than flu' remind me of the stay-at-home armchair generals in World War One who remained oblivious to the situation in the trenches, even when men were dropping like flies.
That’s not “The Guardian”, it’s an idiot who writes for The Guardian. Jenkins has form. What a fool.
But the general tone of his article is right. There have been similar panics before, and they have proved false, or the problem has been solved before we reached disaster.
This doesn’t mean a disaster isn’t possible, of course. But it does mean we should try and maintain a balanced view. We are after all still waiting for the post-Brexit national collapse that a certain PB’er was predicting in the days after he had just voted for it.
Isn’t it a sign of how far the Labour (and Democratic) parties have fallen away as serious opposition?
Left wingers are now left praying for plague, global warming and Brexit to bring down the Boris, Trump governments that they despise.
They don’t even trust our wonderful infallible NHS to save us all.
Loving the idea that Simon Jenkins is left wing!!!!
Boris is certainly overdue his comeuppance, but Coronavirus is not it. Boris has done quite enough harm already. Let’s hope he gets the response right, or at least lets those that know what their doing get on with the job unhindered by his sound bites and Machiavellian politicking.
Johnson being bone idle and totally uninterested in details is currently a huge advantage. It means the experts can get on with things without having to second guess the potential for political interference.
While there will be political decisions still to take, I guess we are learning a key difference between Boris and Trump (there were already plenty in fairness) is that while both love attention, Boris has repeatedly shown he can keep his head down when he wants to, and his ego does not require him to dominate a situation like this which others are better suited for.
You mean he is f***ing useless and hides. At least Trump tries to do something even if it is the wrong thing. Trump is head and shoulders above cowardly Boris.
You cannot be serious.
I cannot stand cowards who hide behind the sofa and get someone else to lie for them , Trump being a total arse has at least the cojones to front things himself and take it on the chin. As they say you can trust a thief but you cannot trust a liar.
That nine Americans now with the virus apparently caught it on two separate Nile cruises seems peculiar. As far as we know, there isn’t a problem yet in Egypt, with until recently only one reported case being the returnee from China, plus two new cases just announced,
Three positives out of the millions of people in Egypt, and those on a Nile cruise would have had next to no close contact with ordinary Egyptians beyond the crew. This doesn’t compute as a credible story.
These Americans were travelling in groups, and surely caught it together on the airplane journey to or from their holiday? Either somebody on the plane was a carrier (and one thinks of the aircrew also) or the virus is surviving for longer than expected on the cool hard surfaces inside an airconditioned airplane. The turnaround times for planes nowadays are often so tight that they don’t get cleaned properly, nor warm up to outside air temperature.
There are far too many people coming back from travel destinations who subsequently test positive to be credible against the tiny numbers of carriers in these destinations. Surely it is being on the aircraft that is the risk?
It seems that a Nile cruise boat was infected by a tourist, how long ago isn't mentioned.
The dozen infected Egyptian workers were all asymptomatic.
Egypt quarantined an unspecified number of passengers who had been on a Nile cruise boat after 12 tested positive for coronavirus, marking a sharp jump in the country’s total cases.
Authorities carried out tests after being alerted by the World Health Organization that a dual Taiwanese-U.S. citizen on the cruise was found to have the virus on her return home, state news agency MENA reported, citing a Health Ministry spokesman.
The dozen infected people were Egyptians, but officials didn’t give the nationalities of those quarantined.
Nah, there's loads of evidence that Boris is lazy. However, as a PM, he delegates well (he did as mayor too), which is an advantage in a situation like this. It also means that (unlike May) he can concentrate on the crisis in hand and not let the rest of government freeze up because of control-freak tendencies demanding everything need the sign-off from No 10.
Whether that is consistent with Cummings being in No 10 is still an open question. We'll see. But Boris has little loyalty and Cummings has few friends.
Boris's role in the Covid-19 outbreak is
1. To have the right people in the right jobs. I believe we can have considerabe confidence in those he has in post - we aren't going to be yearning for the transfer window to buy Mike Pence.
2. Listen to experts. Stand by them in press conferences, where you are open to questions. Otherwise, let those people get on with their jobs in tandem with Ministers.
3. Act as the calm, rational, sensibly upbeat "we can beat this thing, people, if we all take sensible measures and wash our hands for twenty seconds" face of the Government.
4. Go out in a lab coat and meet those who are on the front line, giving them confidence that Government respects the job they are doing - and listening to whetever else they need from Government.
5. Chair the COBRA meeting that draws all these strands together. And if the messages coming back to that COBRA meeting require very difficult decisions to be taken - decisions that at the time may well be politically unpopular - then the job requires he must take them, decisively and without dither.
6. He must act as the nation's lucky rabbit's foot - and get us through this with the least impact on our way of life consistent with curtailing the virus.
How far over did he tell you to bend, by delegate you just mean abdicate his responsibilities and put some other clown up so that he can blame them when it goes pete Tong but take the credit if it is lucky enough to go ok.
You should be used to Scottish clowns fronting your local Government by now. Who is the next one you have lined up to take over?
Those pathetics trying to dismiss this as 'little more than flu' remind me of the stay-at-home armchair generals in World War One who remained oblivious to the situation in the trenches, even when men were dropping like flies.
That’s not “The Guardian”, it’s an idiot who writes for The Guardian. Jenkins has form. What a fool.
But the general tone of his article is right. There have been similar panics before, and they have proved false, or the problem has been solved before we reached disaster.
This doesn’t mean a disaster isn’t possible, of course. But it does mean we should try and maintain a balanced view. We are after all still waiting for the post-Brexit national collapse that a certain PB’er was predicting in the days after he had just voted for it.
Isn’t it a sign of how far the Labour (and Democratic) parties have fallen away as serious opposition?
Left wingers are now left praying for plague, global warming and Brexit to bring down the Boris, Trump governments that they despise.
They don’t even trust our wonderful infallible NHS to save us all.
Loving the idea that Simon Jenkins is left wing!!!!
Boris is certainly overdue his comeuppance, but Coronavirus is not it. Boris has done quite enough harm already. Let’s hope he gets the response right, or at least lets those that know what their doing get on with the job unhindered by his sound bites and Machiavellian politicking.
Johnson being bone idle and totally uninterested in details is currently a huge advantage. It means the experts can get on with things without having to second guess the potential for political interference.
While there will be political decisions still to take, I guess we are learning a key difference between Boris and Trump (there were already plenty in fairness) is that while both love attention, Boris has repeatedly shown he can keep his head down when he wants to, and his ego does not require him to dominate a situation like this which others are better suited for.
You mean he is f***ing useless and hides. At least Trump tries to do something even if it is the wrong thing. Trump is head and shoulders above cowardly Boris.
You cannot be serious.
I cannot stand cowards who hide behind the sofa and get someone else to lie for them , Trump being a total arse has at least the cojones to front things himself and take it on the chin. As they say you can trust a thief but you cannot trust a liar.
Never mind Malc.
Next week has Salmond on trial to keep your attention
For sure will be embarrassing for some, I expect the stitch up to fail.
Well I certainly agree that we should not be a party of the centre. That's the LibDems. We are a Democratic Socialist party, but that doesn't mean we need to portray ourselves as a bunch of loons fixated on issues that mean nothing to the vast majority of voters.
Indeed (though plenty of LDs don't seem to think they should be a party of the centre either). The idea Labour will be a party of the centre if they were to, for example, pull back slightly from some of their more extreme policies (or even keep the policies but focus less on some really niche topics) is bizarre.
I’m hardly Boris Johnson’s biggest fan but he’s doing just fine over Covid-19 at present. He’s made one deranged decision, which is to refuse to work closely with the EU on this, but otherwise the government have so far done all that they reasonably could be expected to do.
In fairness, what from the EU, let alone individual EU countries would you have us learn?
I don’t care if they’ve got one scientist with his feet on a desk drawing on a cigarette, ideologically refusing to work with them in the face of a looming pandemic is certifiably mad.
What specifically about the EU should lead us to prioritise cooperation with it over the WHO, for example?
Those pathetics trying to dismiss this as 'little more than flu' remind me of the stay-at-home armchair generals in World War One who remained oblivious to the situation in the trenches, even when men were dropping like flies.
That’s not “The Guardian”, it’s an idiot who writes for The Guardian. Jenkins has form. What a fool.
But the general tone of his article is right. There have been similar panics before, and they have proved false, or the problem has been solved before we reached disaster.
This doesn’t mean a disaster isn’t possible, of course. But it does mean we should try and maintain a balanced view. We are after all still waiting for the post-Brexit national collapse that a certain PB’er was predicting in the days after he had just voted for it.
Isn’t it a sign of how far the Labour (and Democratic) parties have fallen away as serious opposition?
Left wingers are now left praying for plague, global warming and Brexit to bring down the Boris, Trump governments that they despise.
They don’t even trust our wonderful infallible NHS to save us all.
Loving the idea that Simon Jenkins is left wing!!!!
Boris is certainly overdue his comeuppance, but Coronavirus is not it. Boris has done quite enough harm already. Let’s hope he gets the response right, or at least lets those that know what their doing get on with the job unhindered by his sound bites and Machiavellian politicking.
Johnson being bone idle and totally uninterested in details is currently a huge advantage. It means the experts can get on with things without having to second guess the potential for political interference.
While there will be political decisions still to take, I guess we are learning a key difference between Boris and Trump (there were already plenty in fairness) is that while both love attention, Boris has repeatedly shown he can keep his head down when he wants to, and his ego does not require him to dominate a situation like this which others are better suited for.
You mean he is f***ing useless and hides. At least Trump tries to do something even if it is the wrong thing. Trump is head and shoulders above cowardly Boris.
You cannot be serious.
I cannot stand cowards who hide behind the sofa and get someone else to lie for them , Trump being a total arse has at least the cojones to front things himself and take it on the chin. As they say you can trust a thief but you cannot trust a liar.
Trump is both, though.
At least he does it from the front though, whether just through stupidity is up for debate. Boris is a sneaky rat.
Our daughter in law and her mother (from Vancouver) yesterday cancelled their land trip to Australia and later cruise to New Zealand departing on monday.
We have decided to cancel our trip to Vancouver in May as we are both high risk and when I cancelled air porter at Heathrow said they were receiving lots of cancellation.
Next week HMG looks as if it is going to issue travel advice to the high risk category, (like both of us) to avoid public transport
On that advice I will seek refund of my BA tickets under cancellation clause, as I have already cancelled the hotel free of charge and have had the rail fares refunded
IMHO the economic dislocation is going to be far worse than the virus
As someone else said elsewhere on thread, the government measures in budget will be about bridging, bridging between when demand bounces back whilst so much of service industry, from hotels and hospitality to hairdressers and Greggs get zero customers. I would be flabbergasted if government doesn’t dramatically lift unemployment benefits and provide other help for those living on the breadline. And later in year when we are in recession, country’s round the world will be spending money. 53 new aircraft and 49 new destroyers etc. 🙂
But what about you, what does isolation really mean? Telegraph says hug good bye to your relatives for a while as you keep social distance. What about visit to hairdressers, supermarket, saying hi to your neighbours just back from Tenerife?
It’s easy to say “you oldies keep your social distance”. And it makes sense. But just how practical or even doable is it?
Id guess it is fairly easy for a couple of weeks, could even make it enjoyable. A couple of months will start to see physical and mental declines which may or not be worth it vs coronavirus. Longer than that and it probably isnt worth it imo.
So timing your self-isolation is critical, dont waste it now when the number infected is in the hundreds or low thousands, wait until its in the hundreds of thousands plus. That way, hopefully you will never need it but would have prepared for it.
You have added some interesting points, and others who replied too such as use of Skype rather than visiting. But what of the practicalities of shopping, hairdressing, saying hi to neighbours, receiving deliveries. There’s no point having three secure fences round a field if theres gaping hole in the fourth, social isolation will only be as strong as its weakest facet.
It suggests that voters don’t like being lectured to / scolded.... but points out that this is more or less Bernie’s style, too. So sexism is certainly a part of it.
Castro looks like a good VP pick on most grounds, only problem might be his surname for low information voters
I dont recall seeing this phrase 'low information voters' until recently but now its everywhere. Is it some new psephological euphemism that has caught on regarding people who dont pay much attention?
Polite way of saying DUMB THICKOS and not getting pilloried.
You don’t have to be dumb to take no interest at all in politics. But no doubt there is a large overlap.
Nigel, I was talking about the politicians opinions of the masses rather than the masses actually being dumb or thick. Whoever thought those words up , guaranteed to be based on not wanting to say stupid, should be tarred and feathered and ran out of town.
You mean he is f***ing useless and hides. At least Trump tries to do something even if it is the wrong thing. Trump is head and shoulders above cowardly Boris.
No I don't mean that and I think you are just plain wrong. I think Boris takes not getting involved where he can too far, and I don't trust him a bit, but I think you suggestion that trying to do something even if it is the wrong thing is better than doing little, is very often incorrect.
Classic politician logic is 'something must be done, this is something, therefore we must do it'. Yes, doing little or nothing will be the wrong thing sometimes, but doing the wrong thing because the leader must be seen to do something is usually worse.
And the main point would be that while there are things that as PM Boris will need to do, certainly politically, at present it is less important that Boris does something than that the government does something, and it is. Leadership from the top, including decisions, will be needed. But where has that been necessary so far? For now Boris's inclination to stay away from the detail is a good thing and at present the approach is working. When things get really bad? He'll need to step up I'm sure.
Boris is untrustworthy and lazy, I have grave doubts about the man and his political leadership, but he is leagues above Trump in that he is at least occasionally considered in his actions, and while vain is not wholly driven by personal vanity. And that is just for starters.
Our daughter in law and her mother (from Vancouver) yesterday cancelled their land trip to Australia and later cruise to New Zealand departing on monday.
We have decided to cancel our trip to Vancouver in May as we are both high risk and when I cancelled air porter at Heathrow said they were receiving lots of cancellation.
Next week HMG looks as if it is going to issue travel advice to the high risk category, (like both of us) to avoid public transport
On that advice I will seek refund of my BA tickets under cancellation clause, as I have already cancelled the hotel free of charge and have had the rail fares refunded
IMHO the economic dislocation is going to be far worse than the virus
As someone else said elsewhere on thread, the government measures in budget will be about bridging, bridging between when demand bounces back whilst so much of service industry, from hotels and hospitality to hairdressers and Greggs get zero customers. I would be flabbergasted if government doesn’t dramatically lift unemployment benefits and provide other help for those living on the breadline. And later in year when we are in recession, country’s round the world will be spending money. 53 new aircraft and 49 new destroyers etc. 🙂
But what about you, what does isolation really mean? Telegraph says hug good bye to your relatives for a while as you keep social distance. What about visit to hairdressers, supermarket, saying hi to your neighbours just back from Tenerife?
It’s easy to say “you oldies keep your social distance”. And it makes sense. But just how practical or even doable is it?
Id guess it is fairly easy for a couple of weeks, could even make it enjoyable. A couple of months will start to see physical and mental declines which may or not be worth it vs coronavirus. Longer than that and it probably isnt worth it imo.
So timing your self-isolation is critical, dont waste it now when the number infected is in the hundreds or low thousands, wait until its in the hundreds of thousands plus. That way, hopefully you will never need it but would have prepared for it.
You have added some interesting points, and others who replied too such as use of Skype rather than visiting. But what of the practicalities of shopping, hairdressing, saying hi to neighbours, receiving deliveries. There’s no point having three secure fences round a field if theres gaping hole in the fourth, social isolation will only be as strong as its weakest facet.
We have had a weekly shop delivered for the last three years and it works well. We can say hi to the neighbours without close contact but of course we will go the hairdresser and the odd shopping, but importantly it will reduce risk but it does not eliminate it
I’m hardly Boris Johnson’s biggest fan but he’s doing just fine over Covid-19 at present. He’s made one deranged decision, which is to refuse to work closely with the EU on this, but otherwise the government have so far done all that they reasonably could be expected to do.
In fairness, what from the EU, let alone individual EU countries would you have us learn?
There speaks a true Tory unionist isolationist jingoistic fool. Given they are getting more of it earlier and heavier than us there must be many things we could learn. Usual tripe from PB unionists who don't even live in the UK.
With 140,000 people tested, the country’s mortality rate is just over 0.6 per cent compared to the 3.4 per cent global average reported by the WHO
S Korea is certainly what optimists are looking at, but I'm not sure it's showing much of a different picture - they've just tested a particularly young sample, mostly under 50s, who (barring other health conditions) are pretty much all going to survive infection.
Castro looks like a good VP pick on most grounds, only problem might be his surname for low information voters
I dont recall seeing this phrase 'low information voters' until recently but now its everywhere. Is it some new psephological euphemism that has caught on regarding people who dont pay much attention?
Polite way of saying DUMB THICKOS and not getting pilloried.
I had assumed so, though I imagine some people are using it less derogatorily so the context of its use will be the clue. Certainly there's never any shortage of people arguing things that seem to mean that the public are idiots, though few are brave enough to admit that.
Our daughter in law and her mother (from Vancouver) yesterday cancelled their land trip to Australia and later cruise to New Zealand departing on monday.
We have decided to cancel our trip to Vancouver in May as we are both high risk and when I cancelled air porter at Heathrow said they were receiving lots of cancellation.
Next week HMG looks as if it is going to issue travel advice to the high risk category, (like both of us) to avoid public transport
On that advice I will seek refund of my BA tickets under cancellation clause, as I have already cancelled the hotel free of charge and have had the rail fares refunded
IMHO the economic dislocation is going to be far worse than the virus
As someone else said elsewhere on thread, the government measures in budget will be about bridging, bridging between when demand bounces back whilst so much of service industry, from hotels and hospitality to hairdressers and Greggs get zero customers. I would be flabbergasted if government doesn’t dramatically lift unemployment benefits and provide other help for those living on the breadline. And later in year when we are in recession, country’s round the world will be spending money. 53 new aircraft and 49 new destroyers etc. 🙂
But what about you, what does isolation really mean? Telegraph says hug good bye to your relatives for a while as you keep social distance. What about visit to hairdressers, supermarket, saying hi to your neighbours just back from Tenerife?
It’s easy to say “you oldies keep your social distance”. And it makes sense. But just how practical or even doable is it?
Id guess it is fairly easy for a couple of weeks, could even make it enjoyable. A couple of months will start to see physical and mental declines which may or not be worth it vs coronavirus. Longer than that and it probably isnt worth it imo.
So timing your self-isolation is critical, dont waste it now when the number infected is in the hundreds or low thousands, wait until its in the hundreds of thousands plus. That way, hopefully you will never need it but would have prepared for it.
You have added some interesting points, and others who replied too such as use of Skype rather than visiting. But what of the practicalities of shopping, hairdressing, saying hi to neighbours, receiving deliveries. There’s no point having three secure fences round a field if theres gaping hole in the fourth, social isolation will only be as strong as its weakest facet.
Haircuts - not really essential if self isolating unless one spends a lot of time in the mirror preparing for your skype calls Shopping - deliveries where possible Hi to neighbours - perfectly fine across the garden fence. Would even be fairly easy to set up a living room for a small gathering and keep everyone still isolated if desired. Just keep people a metre or more apart, have hand gel available, and clean before and after.
Those pathetics trying to dismiss this as 'little more than flu' remind me of the stay-at-home armchair generals in World War One who remained oblivious to the situation in the trenches, even when men were dropping like flies.
That’s not “The Guardian”, it’s an idiot who writes for The Guardian. Jenkins has form. What a fool.
But the general tone of his article is right. There have been similar panics before, and they have proved false, or the problem has been solved before we reached disaster.
This doesn’t mean a disaster isn’t possible, of course. But it does mean we should try and maintain a balanced view. We are after all still waiting for the post-Brexit national collapse that a certain PB’er was predicting in the days after he had just voted for it.
Isn’t it a sign of how far the Labour (and Democratic) parties have fallen away as serious opposition?
Left wingers are now left praying for plague, global warming and Brexit to bring down the Boris, Trump governments that they despise.
They don’t even trust our wonderful infallible NHS to save us all.
Loving the idea that Simon Jenkins is left wing!!!!
Boris is certainly overdue his comeuppance, but Coronavirus is not it. Boris has done quite enough harm already. Let’s hope he gets the response right, or at least lets those that know what their doing get on with the job unhindered by his sound bites and Machiavellian politicking.
Johnson being bone idle and totally uninterested in details is currently a huge advantage. It means the experts can get on with things without having to second guess the potential for political interference.
While there will be political decisions still to take, I guess we are learning a key difference between Boris and Trump (there were already plenty in fairness) is that while both love attention, Boris has repeatedly shown he can keep his head down when he wants to, and his ego does not require him to dominate a situation like this which others are better suited for.
You mean he is f***ing useless and hides. At least Trump tries to do something even if it is the wrong thing. Trump is head and shoulders above cowardly Boris.
You cannot be serious.
I cannot stand cowards who hide behind the sofa and get someone else to lie for them , Trump being a total arse has at least the cojones to front things himself and take it on the chin. As they say you can trust a thief but you cannot trust a liar.
Never mind Malc.
Next week has Salmond on trial to keep your attention
G, we will see the nastiness of the lickspittle unionists in spades over the next few weeks for sure. If only he had been a Tory it would have been dropped / hushed up, he would have been lauded and put in the House of Lords.
Those pathetics trying to dismiss this as 'little more than flu' remind me of the stay-at-home armchair generals in World War One who remained oblivious to the situation in the trenches, even when men were dropping like flies.
That’s not “The Guardian”, it’s an idiot who writes for The Guardian. Jenkins has form. What a fool.
But the general tone of his article is right. There have been similar panics before, and they have proved false, or the problem has been solved before we reached disaster.
This doesn’t mean a disaster isn’t possible, of course. But it does mean we should try and maintain a balanced view. We are after all still waiting for the post-Brexit national collapse that a certain PB’er was predicting in the days after he had just voted for it.
Isn’t it a sign of how far the Labour (and Democratic) parties have fallen away as serious opposition?
Left wingers are now left praying for plague, global warming and Brexit to bring down the Boris, Trump governments that they despise.
They don’t even trust our wonderful infallible NHS to save us all.
Loving the idea that Simon Jenkins is left wing!!!!
Boris is certainly overdue his comeuppance, but Coronavirus is not it. Boris has done quite enough harm already. Let’s hope he gets the response right, or at least lets those that know what their doing get on with the job unhindered by his sound bites and Machiavellian politicking.
Johnson being bone idle and totally uninterested in details is currently a huge advantage. It means the experts can get on with things without having to second guess the potential for political interference.
While there will be political decisions still to take, I guess we are learning a key difference between Boris and Trump (there were already plenty in fairness) is that while both love attention, Boris has repeatedly shown he can keep his head down when he wants to, and his ego does not require him to dominate a situation like this which others are better suited for.
You mean he is f***ing useless and hides. At least Trump tries to do something even if it is the wrong thing. Trump is head and shoulders above cowardly Boris.
You cannot be serious.
I cannot stand cowards who hide behind the sofa and get someone else to lie for them , Trump being a total arse has at least the cojones to front things himself and take it on the chin. As they say you can trust a thief but you cannot trust a liar.
Never mind Malc.
Next week has Salmond on trial to keep your attention
G, we will see the nastiness of the lickspittle unionists in spades over the next few weeks for sure. If only he had been a Tory it would have been dropped / hushed up, he would have been lauded and put in the House of Lords.
You sound so bitter and try to blame anyone but those involved
Let us see the verdicts and the subsquent fallout first
Nah, there's loads of evidence that Boris is lazy. However, as a PM, he delegates well (he did as mayor too), which is an advantage in a situation like this. It also means that (unlike May) he can concentrate on the crisis in hand and not let the rest of government freeze up because of control-freak tendencies demanding everything need the sign-off from No 10.
Whether that is consistent with Cummings being in No 10 is still an open question. We'll see. But Boris has little loyalty and Cummings has few friends.
Boris's role in the Covid-19 outbreak is
1. To have the right people in the right jobs. I believe we can have considerabe confidence in those he has in post - we aren't going to be yearning for the transfer window to buy Mike Pence.
2. Listen to experts. Stand by them in press conferences, where you are open to questions. Otherwise, let those people get on with their jobs in tandem with Ministers.
3. Act as the calm, rational, sensibly upbeat "we can beat this thing, people, if we all take sensible measures and wash our hands for twenty seconds" face of the Government.
4. Go out in a lab coat and meet those who are on the front line, giving them confidence that Government respects the job they are doing - and listening to whetever else they need from Government.
5. Chair the COBRA meeting that draws all these strands together. And if the messages coming back to that COBRA meeting require very difficult decisions to be taken - decisions that at the time may well be politically unpopular - then the job requires he must take them, decisively and without dither.
6. He must act as the nation's lucky rabbit's foot - and get us through this with the least impact on our way of life consistent with curtailing the virus.
How far over did he tell you to bend, by delegate you just mean abdicate his responsibilities and put some other clown up so that he can blame them when it goes pete Tong but take the credit if it is lucky enough to go ok.
You should be used to Scottish clowns fronting your local Government by now. Who is the next one you have lined up to take over?
Mark, You are bitter that we are doing better than your Westminster lot , helping the poor and downtrodden upsets you, the fact we have a heart upsets you , let it go it is not good for your blood pressure. Twelve years and still popular rather than hated like Westminster crooks. It must gall you.
I’m hardly Boris Johnson’s biggest fan but he’s doing just fine over Covid-19 at present. He’s made one deranged decision, which is to refuse to work closely with the EU on this, but otherwise the government have so far done all that they reasonably could be expected to do.
In fairness, what from the EU, let alone individual EU countries would you have us learn?
There speaks a true Tory unionist isolationist jingoistic fool. Given they are getting more of it earlier and heavier than us there must be many things we could learn. Usual tripe from PB unionists who don't even live in the UK.
You mean he is f***ing useless and hides. At least Trump tries to do something even if it is the wrong thing. Trump is head and shoulders above cowardly Boris.
No I don't mean that and I think you are just plain wrong. I think Boris takes not getting involved where he can too far, and I don't trust him a bit, but I think you suggestion that trying to do something even if it is the wrong thing is better than doing little, is very often incorrect.
Classic politician logic is 'something must be done, this is something, therefore we must do it'. Yes, doing little or nothing will be the wrong thing sometimes, but doing the wrong thing because the leader must be seen to do something is usually worse.
And the main point would be that while there are things that as PM Boris will need to do, certainly politically, at present it is less important that Boris does something than that the government does something, and it is. Leadership from the top, including decisions, will be needed. But where has that been necessary so far? For now Boris's inclination to stay away from the detail is a good thing and at present the approach is working. When things get really bad? He'll need to step up I'm sure.
Boris is untrustworthy and lazy, I have grave doubts about the man and his political leadership, but he is leagues above Trump in that he is at least occasionally considered in his actions, and while vain is not wholly driven by personal vanity. And that is just for starters.
"Boris is untrustworthy and lazy" - I don't any supporting evidence for that oft-made assertion since he became PM.
Those pathetics trying to dismiss this as 'little more than flu' remind me of the stay-at-home armchair generals in World War One who remained oblivious to the situation in the trenches, even when men were dropping like flies.
That’s not “The Guardian”, it’s an idiot who writes for The Guardian. Jenkins has form. What a fool.
But the general tone of his article is right. There have been similar panics before, and they have proved false, or the problem has been solved before we reached disaster.
This doesn’t mean a disaster isn’t possible, of course. But it does mean we should try and maintain a balanced view. We are after all still waiting for the post-Brexit national collapse that a certain PB’er was predicting in the days after he had just voted for it.
Isn’t it a sign of how far the Labour (and Democratic) parties have fallen away as serious opposition?
Left wingers are now left praying for plague, global warming and Brexit to bring down the Boris, Trump governments that they despise.
They don’t even trust our wonderful infallible NHS to save us all.
Loving the idea that Simon Jenkins is left wing!!!!
Boris is certainly overdue his comeuppance, but Coronavirus is not it. Boris has done quite enough harm already. Let’s hope he gets the response right, or at least lets those that know what their doing get on with the job unhindered by his sound bites and Machiavellian politicking.
Johnson being bone idle and totally uninterested in details is currently a huge advantage. It means the experts can get on with things without having to second guess the potential for political interference.
While there will be political decisions still to take, I guess we are learning a key difference between Boris and Trump (there were already plenty in fairness) is that while both love attention, Boris has repeatedly shown he can keep his head down when he wants to, and his ego does not require him to dominate a situation like this which others are better suited for.
You mean he is f***ing useless and hides. At least Trump tries to do something even if it is the wrong thing. Trump is head and shoulders above cowardly Boris.
You cannot be serious.
I cannot stand cowards who hide behind the sofa and get someone else to lie for them , Trump being a total arse has at least the cojones to front things himself and take it on the chin. As they say you can trust a thief but you cannot trust a liar.
Never mind Malc.
Next week has Salmond on trial to keep your attention
G, we will see the nastiness of the lickspittle unionists in spades over the next few weeks for sure. If only he had been a Tory it would have been dropped / hushed up, he would have been lauded and put in the House of Lords.
You sound so bitter and try to blame anyone but those involved
Let us see the verdicts and the subsquent fallout first
We shall certainly see soon G, though hard to beat Westminster establishment when they want to get you.
I’m hardly Boris Johnson’s biggest fan but he’s doing just fine over Covid-19 at present. He’s made one deranged decision, which is to refuse to work closely with the EU on this, but otherwise the government have so far done all that they reasonably could be expected to do.
In fairness, what from the EU, let alone individual EU countries would you have us learn?
I don’t care if they’ve got one scientist with his feet on a desk drawing on a cigarette, ideologically refusing to work with them in the face of a looming pandemic is certifiably mad.
What specifically about the EU should lead us to prioritise cooperation with it over the WHO, for example?
Since you’re asking a question that has nothing to do with what I said, jog on.
I appreciate that Conservatives think it appropriate to put ideological mania ahead of public safety but the rest of us will point that out.
With 140,000 people tested, the country’s mortality rate is just over 0.6 per cent compared to the 3.4 per cent global average reported by the WHO
The s Korea rate will probably go up as it takes a little while for people to die. I would guess it will go over 1% but not 2%. I'm also predicting an increase in the German death rate from 0%. There are several people in intensive care at the moment.
Rather like pneumonia And legionnaires death comes quite quickly and unstoppable with this? But it is interesting how there are different % rates wherever you look, all looking legit from prof this and Dr that.
What we do know for certain, children are not dying in any great numbers, so top figure is offset by old people with underlying conditions dying in quite high rate. So it’s not 1 or 2 % of everyone who gets it, but big variation across age. Without evidence I suspect it cuts across wealth and knowledge groups as well. Those in country’s with sophisticated health systems that’s well funded and done good planning lower death rates? Those in country’s where the population understand what they must do Themselves lower death rates?
I would even throw cultural difference in the over all death % too. Jerome K made clear to us in 3 on the bummell I think, a keep off the grass sign in a park in Germany is perfectly observed, in U.K. everyone’s all over the grass, getting drunk, sleeping, throwing up over it.
With 140,000 people tested, the country’s mortality rate is just over 0.6 per cent compared to the 3.4 per cent global average reported by the WHO
S Korea is certainly what optimists are looking at, but I'm not sure it's showing much of a different picture - they've just tested a particularly young sample, mostly under 50s, who (barring other health conditions) are pretty much all going to survive infection.
You mean he is f***ing useless and hides. At least Trump tries to do something even if it is the wrong thing. Trump is head and shoulders above cowardly Boris.
No I don't mean that and I think you are just plain wrong. I think Boris takes not getting involved where he can too far, and I don't trust him a bit, but I think you suggestion that trying to do something even if it is the wrong thing is better than doing little, is very often incorrect.
Classic politician logic is 'something must be done, this is something, therefore we must do it'. Yes, doing little or nothing will be the wrong thing sometimes, but doing the wrong thing because the leader must be seen to do something is usually worse.
And the main point would be that while there are things that as PM Boris will need to do, certainly politically, at present it is less important that Boris does something than that the government does something, and it is. Leadership from the top, including decisions, will be needed. But where has that been necessary so far? For now Boris's inclination to stay away from the detail is a good thing and at present the approach is working. When things get really bad? He'll need to step up I'm sure.
Boris is untrustworthy and lazy, I have grave doubts about the man and his political leadership, but he is leagues above Trump in that he is at least occasionally considered in his actions, and while vain is not wholly driven by personal vanity. And that is just for starters.
"Boris is untrustworthy and lazy" - I don't any supporting evidence for that oft-made assertion since he became PM.
You just want it to be so.
Or alternatively you choose not to see the evidence as you want it to be false.
Trustworthy is easy - ask the DUP. Lazy, none of us are privy to his real schedules so we have to use our judgement, which you are right is probably clouded by our preconceptions, but it applies both ways.
With 140,000 people tested, the country’s mortality rate is just over 0.6 per cent compared to the 3.4 per cent global average reported by the WHO
S Korea is certainly what optimists are looking at, but I'm not sure it's showing much of a different picture - they've just tested a particularly young sample, mostly under 50s, who (barring other health conditions) are pretty much all going to survive infection.
None of that alters the fact that 0.6% is their discovered mortality rate.
I’m hardly Boris Johnson’s biggest fan but he’s doing just fine over Covid-19 at present. He’s made one deranged decision, which is to refuse to work closely with the EU on this, but otherwise the government have so far done all that they reasonably could be expected to do.
In fairness, what from the EU, let alone individual EU countries would you have us learn?
I don’t care if they’ve got one scientist with his feet on a desk drawing on a cigarette, ideologically refusing to work with them in the face of a looming pandemic is certifiably mad.
What specifically about the EU should lead us to prioritise cooperation with it over the WHO, for example?
Since you’re asking a question that has nothing to do with what I said, jog on.
I appreciate that Conservatives think it appropriate to put ideological mania ahead of public safety but the rest of us will point that out.
Answer came their none. Ironic you lecture others on ideological mania....
Those pathetics trying to dismiss this as 'little more than flu' remind me of the stay-at-home armchair generals in World War One who remained oblivious to the situation in the trenches, even when men were dropping like flies.
That’s not “The Guardian”, it’s an idiot who writes for The Guardian. Jenkins has form. What a fool.
But the general tone of his article is right. There have been similar panics before, and they have proved false, or the problem has been solved before we reached disaster.
This doesn’t mean a disaster isn’t possible, of course. But it does mean we should try and maintain a balanced view. We are after all still waiting for the post-Brexit national collapse that a certain PB’er was predicting in the days after he had just voted for it.
Isn’t it a sign of how far the Labour (and Democratic) parties have fallen away as serious opposition?
Left wingers are now left praying for plague, global warming and Brexit to bring down the Boris, Trump governments that they despise.
They don’t even trust our wonderful infallible NHS to save us all.
Loving the idea that Simon Jenkins is left wing!!!!
Boris is certainly overdue his comeuppance, but Coronavirus is not it. Boris has done quite enough harm already. Let’s hope he gets the response right, or at least lets those that know what their doing get on with the job unhindered by his sound bites and Machiavellian politicking.
Johnson being bone idle and totally uninterested in details is currently a huge advantage. It means the experts can get on with things without having to second guess the potential for political interference.
While there will be political decisions still to take, I guess we are learning a key difference between Boris and Trump (there were already plenty in fairness) is that while both love attention, Boris has repeatedly shown he can keep his head down when he wants to, and his ego does not require him to dominate a situation like this which others are better suited for.
You mean he is f***ing useless and hides. At least Trump tries to do something even if it is the wrong thing. Trump is head and shoulders above cowardly Boris.
You cannot be serious.
I cannot stand cowards who hide behind the sofa and get someone else to lie for them , Trump being a total arse has at least the cojones to front things himself and take it on the chin. As they say you can trust a thief but you cannot trust a liar.
Never mind Malc.
Next week has Salmond on trial to keep your attention
For sure will be embarrassing for some, I expect the stitch up to fail.
I’m hardly Boris Johnson’s biggest fan but he’s doing just fine over Covid-19 at present. He’s made one deranged decision, which is to refuse to work closely with the EU on this, but otherwise the government have so far done all that they reasonably could be expected to do.
In fairness, what from the EU, let alone individual EU countries would you have us learn?
There speaks a true Tory unionist isolationist jingoistic fool. Given they are getting more of it earlier and heavier than us there must be many things we could learn. Usual tripe from PB unionists who don't even live in the UK.
Specifics?
I am not a health specialist but it does not take a medical degree to understand that if you are involved where they already have the virus in large numbers you will learn things. Too many halfwits on here thinking they are spouting specifics when it is just verbal diarrhoea. I will leave that to the experts rather than copy the fools.
How many local cafes are kept afloat by retired folks enjoying coffee and watching the world go by? They will be really hit by pensioners being told to stay in their homes in a week or two.
I’m hardly Boris Johnson’s biggest fan but he’s doing just fine over Covid-19 at present. He’s made one deranged decision, which is to refuse to work closely with the EU on this, but otherwise the government have so far done all that they reasonably could be expected to do.
In fairness, what from the EU, let alone individual EU countries would you have us learn?
I don’t care if they’ve got one scientist with his feet on a desk drawing on a cigarette, ideologically refusing to work with them in the face of a looming pandemic is certifiably mad.
What specifically about the EU should lead us to prioritise cooperation with it over the WHO, for example?
Since you’re asking a question that has nothing to do with what I said, jog on.
I appreciate that Conservatives think it appropriate to put ideological mania ahead of public safety but the rest of us will point that out.
Answer came their none. Ironic you lecture others on ideological mania....
And not or. So yes I will lecture you on ideological mania.
Sadly these battles are nothing new, religious and ethnic based violence bordering on localised ethnic cleansing has a long history in India at least since partition.
You mean he is f***ing useless and hides. At least Trump tries to do something even if it is the wrong thing. Trump is head and shoulders above cowardly Boris.
No I don't mean that and I think you are just plain wrong. I think Boris takes not getting involved where he can too far, and I don't trust him a bit, but I think you suggestion that trying to do something even if it is the wrong thing is better than doing little, is very often incorrect.
Classic politician logic is 'something must be done, this is something, therefore we must do it'. Yes, doing little or nothing will be the wrong thing sometimes, but doing the wrong thing because the leader must be seen to do something is usually worse.
And the main point would be that while there are things that as PM Boris will need to do, certainly politically, at present it is less important that Boris does something than that the government does something, and it is. Leadership from the top, including decisions, will be needed. But where has that been necessary so far? For now Boris's inclination to stay away from the detail is a good thing and at present the approach is working. When things get really bad? He'll need to step up I'm sure.
Boris is untrustworthy and lazy, I have grave doubts about the man and his political leadership, but he is leagues above Trump in that he is at least occasionally considered in his actions, and while vain is not wholly driven by personal vanity. And that is just for starters.
"Boris is untrustworthy and lazy" - I don't any supporting evidence for that oft-made assertion since he became PM.
You just want it to be so.
'Since he became PM' seems to be the key words of your sentence.
As for the rest, yes it is an opinion, oh such shame I have for holding one. One which a great many people even those who voted for him seem to share (more on the latter than the former).
As for me wanting it to be true you are incorrect, I absolutely don't want it to be true, and I don't think I need a lesson on partisanship from party loyalists. Boris has proven me wrong before in a positive way and I hope he will again, and I defend him when I think it warranted (such as the attacks on him not showing up in flooded areas or this very debate that he is as bad or worse than Trump).
But sure, pretend that anyone expressing concern about Boris's character is just wanting it to be true like everyone who expresses concern is the same, as though a lifelong Tory with concerns were the same as a lifelong socialist with concerns. Presumably it makes you feel better to pretend so.
Those pathetics trying to dismiss this as 'little more than flu' remind me of the stay-at-home armchair generals in World War One who remained oblivious to the situation in the trenches, even when men were dropping like flies.
That’s not “The Guardian”, it’s an idiot who writes for The Guardian. Jenkins has form. What a fool.
But the general tone of his article is right. There have been similar panics before, and they have proved false, or the problem has been solved before we reached disaster.
This doesn’t mean a disaster isn’t possible, of course. But it does mean we should try and maintain a balanced view. We are after all still waiting for the post-Brexit national collapse that a certain PB’er was predicting in the days after he had just voted for it.
Isn’t it a sign of how far the Labour (and Democratic) parties have fallen away as serious opposition?
Left wingers are now left praying for plague, global warming and Brexit to bring down the Boris, Trump governments that they despise.
They don’t even trust our wonderful infallible NHS to save us all.
Loving the idea that Simon Jenkins is left wing!!!!
Boris is certainly overdue his comeuppance, but Coronavirus is not it. Boris has done quite enough harm already. Let’s hope he gets the response right, or at least lets those that know what their doing get on with the job unhindered by his sound bites and Machiavellian politicking.
Johnson being bone idle and totally uninterested in details is currently a huge advantage. It means the experts can get on with things without having to second guess the potential for political interference.
While there will be political decisions still to take, I guess we are learning a key difference between Boris and Trump (there were already plenty in fairness) is that while both love attention, Boris has repeatedly shown he can keep his head down when he wants to, and his ego does not require him to dominate a situation like this which others are better suited for.
You mean he is f***ing useless and hides. At least Trump tries to do something even if it is the wrong thing. Trump is head and shoulders above cowardly Boris.
You cannot be serious.
I cannot stand cowards who hide behind the sofa and get someone else to lie for them , Trump being a total arse has at least the cojones to front things himself and take it on the chin. As they say you can trust a thief but you cannot trust a liar.
Never mind Malc.
Next week has Salmond on trial to keep your attention
For sure will be embarrassing for some, I expect the stitch up to fail.
That's a keeper....
Certainly be tough for him up against the state and all its resources, they have form for sure.
I’m hardly Boris Johnson’s biggest fan but he’s doing just fine over Covid-19 at present. He’s made one deranged decision, which is to refuse to work closely with the EU on this, but otherwise the government have so far done all that they reasonably could be expected to do.
In fairness, what from the EU, let alone individual EU countries would you have us learn?
I don’t care if they’ve got one scientist with his feet on a desk drawing on a cigarette, ideologically refusing to work with them in the face of a looming pandemic is certifiably mad.
What specifically about the EU should lead us to prioritise cooperation with it over the WHO, for example?
Since you’re asking a question that has nothing to do with what I said, jog on.
I appreciate that Conservatives think it appropriate to put ideological mania ahead of public safety but the rest of us will point that out.
Answer came their none. Ironic you lecture others on ideological mania....
And not or. So yes I will lecture you on ideological mania.
You know enough about it....
But given resources are limited, what would you have us learn?
That’s not “The Guardian”, it’s an idiot who writes for The Guardian. Jenkins has form. What a fool.
But the general tone of his article is right. There have been similar panics before, and they have proved false, or the problem has been solved before we reached disaster.
This doesn’t mean a disaster isn’t possible, of course. But it does mean we should try and maintain a balanced view. We are after all still waiting for the post-Brexit national collapse that a certain PB’er was predicting in the days after he had just voted for it.
That is no longer true, if it ever was. I can't remember "similar panics," what were they about?
Instead of going "hurr hurr hurr eadric" perhaps accept that the good Dr Fox probably knows more about what we can likely expect, than the rest of the board combined. What sort of tone do you think he is setting?
I think that previous medical panics over AIDS in the eighties* and BSE in the nineties didn't become catastrophic was precisely because appropriate action was taken, not that there was no threat.
Those diseases had a much slower incubation period, so there was time to act. Much less so with the much faster moving Coronavirus.
In any case, self preservation is kicking in. It won't take government action to clamp down on unnecessary travel, large crowds and public events as people are socially distancing already. Government instructions might well be helpful to guide decisions, and also for insurance to kick in. Some bridging relief for affected sectors should be a key part of the budget. So as to lessen the economic hit.
I forgot to put in my footnote.
*While HIV/AIDS was contained by appropriate measures in the UK, denial and lack of action in Sub Saharan Africa was catastrophic, with millions dead as a result. We should not copy that approach.
HIV also probably started as an animal virus that made the cross species jump too.
Good points. On the political spat which seems to have developed on thread, I don’t see how this will damage Johnson particularly (irrespective of my dislike for him). So far he’s mainly got out of the way of the experts, and preparations appear sensible. Trump, on the other hand, is actively contradicting the advice of his own experts, and is undeniably responsible for a degradation in the US pandemic response capability before the outbreak even happened. People will die as a result of his actions.
Fair comment and my dislike of Trump is turning to real anger
You have a glimpse about how some of us feel about Boris.
I am fully aware of your position on Boris
Indeed, you used to share it.
Times change and right now he is dealing with covid 19 well and believes in trusting his ministers. Furthermore his domestic agenda in levelling up the north is spot on
Boris cares about Boris. Sometimes your interests may temporarily align with his. But not someone to rely on. If you’re in his way carnage. I cite the career of Theresa May.
Boris did the country an enormous service by removing Mrs May - have you said thank you ?
You mean he is f***ing useless and hides. At least Trump tries to do something even if it is the wrong thing. Trump is head and shoulders above cowardly Boris.
No I don't mean that and I think you are just plain wrong. I think Boris takes not getting involved where he can too far, and I don't trust him a bit, but I think you suggestion that trying to do something even if it is the wrong thing is better than doing little, is very often incorrect.
Classic politician logic is 'something must be done, this is something, therefore we must do it'. Yes, doing little or nothing will be the wrong thing sometimes, but doing the wrong thing because the leader must be seen to do something is usually worse.
And the main point would be that while there are things that as PM Boris will need to do, certainly politically, at present it is less important that Boris does something than that the government does something, and it is. Leadership from the top, including decisions, will be needed. But where has that been necessary so far? For now Boris's inclination to stay away from the detail is a good thing and at present the approach is working. When things get really bad? He'll need to step up I'm sure.
Boris is untrustworthy and lazy, I have grave doubts about the man and his political leadership, but he is leagues above Trump in that he is at least occasionally considered in his actions, and while vain is not wholly driven by personal vanity. And that is just for starters.
"Boris is untrustworthy and lazy" - I don't any supporting evidence for that oft-made assertion since he became PM.
You just want it to be so.
Or alternatively you choose not to see the evidence as you want it to be false.
Trustworthy is easy - ask the DUP. Lazy, none of us are privy to his real schedules so we have to use our judgement, which you are right is probably clouded by our preconceptions, but it applies both ways.
Fair comment, although I don't really know that the DUP is a case in point. They were playing a game of political silly buggers themselves and they lost, it was more on them than Boris.
You mean he is f***ing useless and hides. At least Trump tries to do something even if it is the wrong thing. Trump is head and shoulders above cowardly Boris.
No I don't mean that and I think you are just plain wrong. I think Boris takes not getting involved where he can too far, and I don't trust him a bit, but I think you suggestion that trying to do something even if it is the wrong thing is better than doing little, is very often incorrect.
Classic politician logic is 'something must be done, this is something, therefore we must do it'. Yes, doing little or nothing will be the wrong thing sometimes, but doing the wrong thing because the leader must be seen to do something is usually worse.
And the main point would be that while there are things that as PM Boris will need to do, certainly politically, at present it is less important that Boris does something than that the government does something, and it is. Leadership from the top, including decisions, will be needed. But where has that been necessary so far? For now Boris's inclination to stay away from the detail is a good thing and at present the approach is working. When things get really bad? He'll need to step up I'm sure.
Boris is untrustworthy and lazy, I have grave doubts about the man and his political leadership, but he is leagues above Trump in that he is at least occasionally considered in his actions, and while vain is not wholly driven by personal vanity. And that is just for starters.
"Boris is untrustworthy and lazy" - I don't any supporting evidence for that oft-made assertion since he became PM.
You just want it to be so.
Or alternatively you choose not to see the evidence as you want it to be false.
Trustworthy is easy - ask the DUP. Lazy, none of us are privy to his real schedules so we have to use our judgement, which you are right is probably clouded by our preconceptions, but it applies both ways.
Fair comment, although I don't really know that the DUP is a case in point. They were playing a game of political silly buggers themselves and they lost, it was more on them than Boris.
Oh, I dont like the DUP at all, but they thought they had a deal and found out they were sold down the river. On trust it is a clear example that the PMs promises and words mean nothing to him if he perceives a more advantageous opportunity becomes available. In some ways that can be a good characteristic, but it is the opposite of trustworthy.
Just a couple of points from the article "The [Coronavirus] hotline, however, is also still responsible for fielding a wide range of other medical concerns — from vomiting and diarrhea to acute back pain. A spokesperson told DW that the hotline received over 140,000 calls last weekend. The service can currently keep up with the demand, the spokesperson said, but callers may also face waiting times."
and "The complexity of Germany's decentralized health care system has become glaringly apparent during the COVID-19 outbreak."
I’m hardly Boris Johnson’s biggest fan but he’s doing just fine over Covid-19 at present. He’s made one deranged decision, which is to refuse to work closely with the EU on this, but otherwise the government have so far done all that they reasonably could be expected to do.
In fairness, what from the EU, let alone individual EU countries would you have us learn?
I don’t care if they’ve got one scientist with his feet on a desk drawing on a cigarette, ideologically refusing to work with them in the face of a looming pandemic is certifiably mad.
What specifically about the EU should lead us to prioritise cooperation with it over the WHO, for example?
Since you’re asking a question that has nothing to do with what I said, jog on.
I appreciate that Conservatives think it appropriate to put ideological mania ahead of public safety but the rest of us will point that out.
Answer came their none. Ironic you lecture others on ideological mania....
And not or. So yes I will lecture you on ideological mania.
You know enough about it....
But given resources are limited, what would you have us learn?
The government has resources enough to spend £100 billion on HS2 and untold billions on a bridge to nowhere. It has resources enough to do this. Your mania is getting steadily more absurd.
With 140,000 people tested, the country’s mortality rate is just over 0.6 per cent compared to the 3.4 per cent global average reported by the WHO
I would also think that health care professionals are now starting to form best practice. When it first emerged in China, nobody knew what it was, how to even think about treating people with e.g. we know that it often starts mild, then you can get the pneumonia and for those with underlying conditions it becomes very serious.
At the outbreak, as well as a cover up, I would think a lot of people either didn't go to the doctors or if they did (because they have to pay in China) were probably told nothing to worry about, crack on as usual.
Where as now, clearly everybody in a developed health care system will get tested and told if this goes downhill at all it is serious.
Well I certainly agree that we should not be a party of the centre. That's the LibDems. We are a Democratic Socialist party, but that doesn't mean we need to portray ourselves as a bunch of loons fixated on issues that mean nothing to the vast majority of voters.
The natural centre of gravity of the Labour Party is soft left. We have oscillated about this point, but I think after this leadership election the seesaw will be back in balance.
Labour does best when in the centre, see Blair, provided a more left of centre party like the Greens does not start to get too much traction with its left-wing core vote.
FPTP should help avoid that though e.g. see 2005 when Blair was re elected despite a much lower majority and some losses to the LDs after the Iraq War in Labour's inner cities heartlands
Of all the appaling things I have heard come from Trump's mouth, this is one of the most disgraceful things I have ever heard from potitician in my lifetime.
Just been to do my panic buy. Happy to report almost no shortages at all in Stretford, though Tesco clearly facing a few challenges in restocking the shelves neatly. The only gaps I saw were in own-brand dried pasta.
Of all the appaling things I have heard come from Trump's mouth, this is one of the most disgraceful things I have ever heard from potitician in my lifetime.
Our daughter in law and her mother (from Vancouver) yesterday cancelled their land trip to Australia and later cruise to New Zealand departing on monday.
We have decided to cancel our trip to Vancouver in May as we are both high risk and when I cancelled air porter at Heathrow said they were receiving lots of cancellation.
Next week HMG looks as if it is going to issue travel advice to the high risk category, (like both of us) to avoid public transport
On that advice I will seek refund of my BA tickets under cancellation clause, as I have already cancelled the hotel free of charge and have had the rail fares refunded
IMHO the economic dislocation is going to be far worse than the virus
As someone else said elsewhere on thread, the government measures in budget will be about bridging, bridging between when demand bounces back whilst so much of service industry, from hotels and hospitality to hairdressers and Greggs get zero customers. I would be flabbergasted if government doesn’t dramatically lift unemployment benefits and provide other help for those living on the breadline. And later in year when we are in recession, country’s round the world will be spending money. 53 new aircraft and 49 new destroyers etc. 🙂
But what about you, what does isolation really mean? Telegraph says hug good bye to your relatives for a while as you keep social distance. What about visit to hairdressers, supermarket, saying hi to your neighbours just back from Tenerife?
It’s easy to say “you oldies keep your social distance”. And it makes sense. But just how practical or even doable is it?
Id guess it is fairly easy for a couple of weeks, could even make it enjoyable. A couple of months will start to see physical and mental declines which may or not be worth it vs coronavirus. Longer than that and it probably isnt worth it imo.
So timing your self-isolation is critical, dont waste it now when the number infected is in the hundreds or low thousands, wait until its in the hundreds of thousands plus. That way, hopefully you will never need it but would have prepared for it.
You have added some interesting points, and others who replied too such as use of Skype rather than visiting. But what of the practicalities of shopping, hairdressing, saying hi to neighbours, receiving deliveries. There’s no point having three secure fences round a field if theres gaping hole in the fourth, social isolation will only be as strong as its weakest facet.
Your final point isn't true.
Suppose the status quo is that everyone infected on average infects 2.5 other people. You can see how infection rates would grow strongly.
If everyone halves their social interaction then you reduce that rate to 1.25. The infection rate still grows, but much more slowly.
If then everyone halves their social interaction again, you reduce that rate to 0.625, the infection rate falls and is brought under control.
Obviously the more you can reduce your social interaction the better, but this is different to something like flood defences, which are only as good as their weakest link. Half-measures can genuinely be helpful in this situation.
Of all the appaling things I have heard come from Trump's mouth, this is one of the most disgraceful things I have ever heard from potitician in my lifetime.
In other words he doesn't care if people on the ship get ill or die, he doesn't want them being counted as US statistics.
And, as we know from the Japanese example, a cruise ship is a really bad place to try to isolate the infected. Chances of large numbers of the passengers going on to become infected is fairly high.
In the election Trump got 306 and Clinton got 232, so most of the "defectors" were from the Clinton side. Presumably the Ron Paul/Pence vote is the one Republican defector. It is much easier to justify giving your vote to someone different, when you know that the person you ought to be voting for has lost.
Just been to do my panic buy. Happy to report almost no shortages at all in Stretford, though Tesco clearly facing a few challenges in restocking the shelves neatly. The only gaps I saw were in own-brand dried pasta.
Is that the Tesco opposite Chester House and near the College? I used to live down the street opposite many moons ago before Tesco was built
Of all the appaling things I have heard come from Trump's mouth, this is one of the most disgraceful things I have ever heard from potitician in my lifetime.
In other words he doesn't care if people on the ship get ill or die, he doesn't want them being counted as US statistics.
I heard him say that. He disgusts me
He is a not very bright man incapable of empathy. The disgrace and disgust should be equally directed at the many, much more capable people who have allowed him to become President and are still cheering him on.
"I'm a doctor and an Infectious Diseases Specialist. I've been at this for more than 20 years seeing sick patients on a daily basis. I have worked in inner city hospitals and in the poorest slums of Africa. HIV-AIDS, Hepatitis,TB, SARS, Measles, Shingles, Whooping cough, Diphtheria...there is little I haven't been exposed to in my profession. And with notable exception of SARS, very little has left me feeling vulnerable, overwhelmed or downright scared.
I am not scared of Covid-19."
"What I am scared about is the loss of reason and wave of fear that has induced the masses of society into a spellbinding spiral of panic..."
"I implore you all. Temper fear with reason, panic with patience and uncertainty with education."
In the election Trump got 306 and Clinton got 232, so most of the "defectors" were from the Clinton side. Presumably the Ron Paul/Pence vote is the one Republican defector. It is much easier to justify giving your vote to someone different, when you know that the person you ought to be voting for has lost.
Also given her long-standing position on gun control I would take death threats from Hillary Clinton electors less seriously.
Of all the appaling things I have heard come from Trump's mouth, this is one of the most disgraceful things I have ever heard from potitician in my lifetime.
In other words he doesn't care if people on the ship get ill or die, he doesn't want them being counted as US statistics.
And, as we know from the Japanese example, a cruise ship is a really bad place to try to isolate the infected. Chances of large numbers of the passengers going on to become infected is fairly high.
The Wikipedia article on the Grand Princess is quite worrying.
Maybe I am weird, but 15 years ago or so, I had a major operation that required me to be stuck in bed for 3 months and basically still couldn't go anywhere for another couple of months.
I really didn't find it that hard to cope. I got crazy amounts of work done, learned a load of new things. It did probably help that I had a nice garden and that the summer came about bang on when I could finally get out of bed.
But in terms of social isolation, I honestly didn't find it that hard, as I just kept myself busy and spent time with Mrs U.
Nowadays we have social media, WhatsApp, Facetime as well, so people stuck at home can still interact with one another.
Those pathetics trying to dismiss this as 'little more than flu' remind me of the stay-at-home armchair generals in World War One who remained oblivious to the situation in the trenches, even when men were dropping like flies.
That’s not “The Guardian”, it’s an idiot who writes for The Guardian. Jenkins has form. What a fool.
But the general tone of his article is right. There have been similar panics before, and they have proved false, or the problem has been solved before we reached disaster.
This doesn’t mean a disaster isn’t possible, of course. But it does mean we should try and maintain a balanced view. We are after all still waiting for the post-Brexit national collapse that a certain PB’er was predicting in the days after he had just voted for it.
Isn’t it a sign of how far the Labour (and Democratic) parties have fallen away as serious opposition?
Left wingers are now left praying for plague, global warming and Brexit to bring down the Boris, Trump governments that they despise.
They don’t even trust our wonderful infallible NHS to save us all.
Loving the idea that Simon Jenkins is left wing!!!!
Boris is certainly overdue his comeuppance, but Coronavirus is not it. Boris has done quite enough harm already. Let’s hope he gets the response right, or at least lets those that know what their doing get on with the job unhindered by his sound bites and Machiavellian politicking.
PM with 80 seat majority 2 month ago is “due comeuppance”....
If the left want to govern they have to earn it with hard work on policy and convincing voters. Not just “ Buggins turn” and Nanking Noserun.
Almost 3 months ago now. We are close to the 5% point of this Parliament!
"I'm a doctor and an Infectious Diseases Specialist. I've been at this for more than 20 years seeing sick patients on a daily basis. I have worked in inner city hospitals and in the poorest slums of Africa. HIV-AIDS, Hepatitis,TB, SARS, Measles, Shingles, Whooping cough, Diphtheria...there is little I haven't been exposed to in my profession. And with notable exception of SARS, very little has left me feeling vulnerable, overwhelmed or downright scared.
I am not scared of Covid-19."
"What I am scared about is the loss of reason and wave of fear that has induced the masses of society into a spellbinding spiral of panic..."
"I implore you all. Temper fear with reason, panic with patience and uncertainty with education."
Made me pause and reflect on my stockpiling. But to be honest most of what I have was left over from the No Deal Brexit panic.
My take on "stockpiling" is it is one thing to do what our resident hyper doom monger has done, but I don't think it is crazy when you go and do your shop buy some extra of things you would eat anyway and won't go to waste.
That's what I did with my elderly parents, I have bought them about a month of frozen stuff, tins, etc of stuff that they eat anyway. If this all blows over, well they don't need to go shopping for a while.
Comments
Of course, even isolating ourselves does not prevent us catching the virus, it just makes it less likely
Boris cares about Boris. Sure. Unsurprisingly, self-interest and self-love is a common denominator among our politicians.
Tony cares about Tony. Donald cares about Donald. Emmanuel cares about Emmanuel.
Why have the Dems ended up with Muddled Joe, when there were better, younger, abler candidates who would pulverise Donald?
Because Muddled Joe cares about Muddled Joe.
Next week has Salmond on trial to keep your attention
So timing your self-isolation is critical, dont waste it now when the number infected is in the hundreds or low thousands, wait until its in the hundreds of thousands plus. That way, hopefully you will never need it but would have prepared for it.
I'm also predicting an increase in the German death rate from 0%. There are several people in intensive care at the moment.
https://www.euractiv.com/section/health-consumers/news/eu-focuses-on-face-masks-challenge-as-coronavirus-outbreak-escalates/
But no doubt there is a large overlap.
The dozen infected Egyptian workers were all asymptomatic.
Egypt quarantined an unspecified number of passengers who had been on a Nile cruise boat after 12 tested positive for coronavirus, marking a sharp jump in the country’s total cases.
Authorities carried out tests after being alerted by the World Health Organization that a dual Taiwanese-U.S. citizen on the cruise was found to have the virus on her return home, state news agency MENA reported, citing a Health Ministry spokesman.
The dozen infected people were Egyptians, but officials didn’t give the nationalities of those quarantined.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-06/virus-cases-jump-in-egypt-as-nile-cruise-passengers-quarantined
This is a decent article:
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/03/06/elizabeth-warren-strength-weakness-122975
It suggests that voters don’t like being lectured to / scolded.... but points out that this is more or less Bernie’s style, too. So sexism is certainly a part of it.
Classic politician logic is 'something must be done, this is something, therefore we must do it'. Yes, doing little or nothing will be the wrong thing sometimes, but doing the wrong thing because the leader must be seen to do something is usually worse.
And the main point would be that while there are things that as PM Boris will need to do, certainly politically, at present it is less important that Boris does something than that the government does something, and it is. Leadership from the top, including decisions, will be needed. But where has that been necessary so far? For now Boris's inclination to stay away from the detail is a good thing and at present the approach is working. When things get really bad? He'll need to step up I'm sure.
Boris is untrustworthy and lazy, I have grave doubts about the man and his political leadership, but he is leagues above Trump in that he is at least occasionally considered in his actions, and while vain is not wholly driven by personal vanity. And that is just for starters.
Shopping - deliveries where possible
Hi to neighbours - perfectly fine across the garden fence. Would even be fairly easy to set up a living room for a small gathering and keep everyone still isolated if desired. Just keep people a metre or more apart, have hand gel available, and clean before and after.
Let us see the verdicts and the subsquent fallout first
You just want it to be so.
I appreciate that Conservatives think it appropriate to put ideological mania ahead of public safety but the rest of us will point that out.
What we do know for certain, children are not dying in any great numbers, so top figure is offset by old people with underlying conditions dying in quite high rate. So it’s not 1 or 2 % of everyone who gets it, but big variation across age. Without evidence I suspect it cuts across wealth and knowledge groups as well. Those in country’s with sophisticated health systems that’s well funded and done good planning lower death rates? Those in country’s where the population understand what they must do Themselves lower death rates?
I would even throw cultural difference in the over all death % too. Jerome K made clear to us in 3 on the bummell I think, a keep off the grass sign in a park in Germany is perfectly observed, in U.K. everyone’s all over the grass, getting drunk, sleeping, throwing up over it.
https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1236211883285327872
Trustworthy is easy - ask the DUP. Lazy, none of us are privy to his real schedules so we have to use our judgement, which you are right is probably clouded by our preconceptions, but it applies both ways.
Could be mass closures if we have three months of nobody leaving their houses other than to go to work and rush straight back.
We need action on Wed at the Budget to tide these small businesses over.
I will leave that to the experts rather than copy the fools.
As for the rest, yes it is an opinion, oh such shame I have for holding one. One which a great many people even those who voted for him seem to share (more on the latter than the former).
As for me wanting it to be true you are incorrect, I absolutely don't want it to be true, and I don't think I need a lesson on partisanship from party loyalists. Boris has proven me wrong before in a positive way and I hope he will again, and I defend him when I think it warranted (such as the attacks on him not showing up in flooded areas or this very debate that he is as bad or worse than Trump).
But sure, pretend that anyone expressing concern about Boris's character is just wanting it to be true like everyone who expresses concern is the same, as though a lifelong Tory with concerns were the same as a lifelong socialist with concerns. Presumably it makes you feel better to pretend so.
Too right will COVID19 have an impact.
But given resources are limited, what would you have us learn?
Trump/Pence 305
Clinton/Kaine 227
Sanders/Warren 1
Kasich/Fiorina 1
Ron Paul/Pence 1
Powell/Cantwell 1
Powell/Collins 1
Powell/Warren 1
Faith Spotted Eagle/Winona LaDuke 1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election
I think it will be a woman.
No fags allowed referred to the rules of some of the golf clubs not tobacco related
From Deutschewelle in English: https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-in-germany-health-care-system-under-pressure/a-52663510
Just a couple of points from the article
"The [Coronavirus] hotline, however, is also still responsible for fielding a wide range of other medical concerns — from vomiting and diarrhea to acute back pain. A spokesperson told DW that the hotline received over 140,000 calls last weekend. The service can currently keep up with the demand, the spokesperson said, but callers may also face waiting times."
and
"The complexity of Germany's decentralized health care system has become glaringly apparent during the COVID-19 outbreak."
At the outbreak, as well as a cover up, I would think a lot of people either didn't go to the doctors or if they did (because they have to pay in China) were probably told nothing to worry about, crack on as usual.
Where as now, clearly everybody in a developed health care system will get tested and told if this goes downhill at all it is serious.
FPTP should help avoid that though e.g. see 2005 when Blair was re elected despite a much lower majority and some losses to the LDs after the Iraq War in Labour's inner cities heartlands
“I like the numbers being where they are,” said Trump, who appeared to be explicitly acknowledging his political concerns about the outbreak: “I don’t need to have the numbers double because of one ship that wasn’t our fault.”
Source: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/06/us-coronavirus-death-toll-washington-state
In other words he doesn't care if people on the ship get ill or die, he doesn't want them being counted as US statistics.
Suppose the status quo is that everyone infected on average infects 2.5 other people. You can see how infection rates would grow strongly.
If everyone halves their social interaction then you reduce that rate to 1.25. The infection rate still grows, but much more slowly.
If then everyone halves their social interaction again, you reduce that rate to 0.625, the infection rate falls and is brought under control.
Obviously the more you can reduce your social interaction the better, but this is different to something like flood defences, which are only as good as their weakest link. Half-measures can genuinely be helpful in this situation.
I am not scared of Covid-19."
"What I am scared about is the loss of reason and wave of fear that has induced the masses of society into a spellbinding spiral of panic..."
"I implore you all. Temper fear with reason, panic with patience and uncertainty with education."
https://www.facebook.com/abdu.sharkawy/posts/2809958409125474
Made me pause and reflect on my stockpiling. But to be honest most of what I have was left over from the No Deal Brexit panic.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_outbreak_on_cruise_ships
I really didn't find it that hard to cope. I got crazy amounts of work done, learned a load of new things. It did probably help that I had a nice garden and that the summer came about bang on when I could finally get out of bed.
But in terms of social isolation, I honestly didn't find it that hard, as I just kept myself busy and spent time with Mrs U.
Nowadays we have social media, WhatsApp, Facetime as well, so people stuck at home can still interact with one another.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/07/flabbergasted-melbourne-doctor-with-coronavirus-symptoms-continued-seeing-patients
That's what I did with my elderly parents, I have bought them about a month of frozen stuff, tins, etc of stuff that they eat anyway. If this all blows over, well they don't need to go shopping for a while.