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  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    matt said:

    Can we have a rule limiting the amount of time we talk about coronavirus on here each day, please?

    It's fucking boring.

    I’m just impressed how one person has time to adopt 3 different identities and maintain a consistent, suitably hysterical and self-congratulatory style.
    I dunno why he can't at least try something else. Watch Netflix. Go for a walk. Sketch a garden bird. Do a brass rubbing. Savour a pint. Have a wank.

    Anything.
    I DO take your point that it is "f*cking boring", and I agree it would be great if we could talk about something else. The trouble is this issue is so enormous it soon intrudes onto any other debate (unless they are about favourite kids tv shows or whatever)

    eg take the POTUS elex. Clearly this is the biggest electoral story of the moment. We could talk about that, but very soon someone will rightly say, "Hang on, how does coronavirus affect all this, because it will" - and there we are again.

    This applies almost universally.

    Hmm.

    Maybe you are right and TSE should impose some kind of rule. We are allowed to talk about coronavirus from 9pm-11pm. And not otherwise. Or something, I dunno.
    You mean Quarantine it ?
    I was tempted o make that joke, but I was worried it would make me sound facetious.

    Which I don't want. Because I am serious. Casino is right that this will turn into coronavirusbetting.com very soon, if we don't have some sort of limit on discussion (and yes, I am amongst the most obsessive).

    It is by far the biggest story of the day, maybe of the decade, but it will get relentless if we don't, uh, self isolate* the Covid debates.

    *sorry, couldn't resist
    maybe if we can shift talk into the summer , the forum will be in a better state to handle it with outdoor pursuits available for the bored
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148
    edited March 2020

    HYUFD said:
    For reference: Spanish flu killed at least 40 million people, or 2% of the world's population, and perhaps as many as 5%. The lower part of that range would put it on a par for deathliness with WW1 or WW2.
    Spanish flu had a 10 to 20% death rate on most estimates so I think that chart rather underestimates its fatality rate.

    http://influenzavirusnet.com/1918-flu-pandemic/mortality.html

    However I learnt today my godfather has a malignant brain tumour sadly which does rather put into context some panicking about catching coronavirus with just a 1 to 2% death rate
  • Do you ever feel
  • Like you're
  • Going through
  • The motions
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163

    The motions

    Yes
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    eadric said:

    matt said:

    Can we have a rule limiting the amount of time we talk about coronavirus on here each day, please?

    It's fucking boring.

    I’m just impressed how one person has time to adopt 3 different identities and maintain a consistent, suitably hysterical and self-congratulatory style.
    I dunno why he can't at least try something else. Watch Netflix. Go for a walk. Sketch a garden bird. Do a brass rubbing. Savour a pint. Have a wank.

    Anything.
    I DO take your point that it is "f*cking boring", and I agree it would be great if we could talk about something else. The trouble is this issue is so enormous it soon intrudes onto any other debate (unless they are about favourite kids tv shows or whatever)

    eg take the POTUS elex. Clearly this is the biggest electoral story of the moment. We could talk about that, but very soon someone will rightly say, "Hang on, how does coronavirus affect all this, because it will" - and there we are again.

    This applies almost universally.

    Hmm.

    Maybe you are right and TSE should impose some kind of rule. We are allowed to talk about coronavirus from 9pm-11pm. And not otherwise. Or something, I dunno.
    The trouble is that newsy things happen at random times. Perhaps a rolling cordon would be better, you get 45 minutes for each cv story which makes the BBC news front page, starting when it gets there.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    If you put the mortality rate of say 2% in betting terms its like picking the bonus ball in the Lottery - Not likely but when death is at stake you would be nervous before the Balls are released , certainly not been able to concentrate on 'In it to win it" beforehand
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    Too little has been made of the disparity in mortality between young and old. Repeating the mantra that only (!) 2% who catch it are likely to die from it ignores the fact that for the older part of the population if you catch it then the odds of death are more like Russian roulette, or getting six in a throw of a die.
    I'm not wanting to scaremonger, but I'd like to see more consideration of that.
  • Does nobody care about Keir, I asked a genuinely interesting question I thought to try and get out of this virus stuff and ignored
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited March 2020
    Quincel said:

    isam said:

    What a snide and petty opinion piece from Mr Meeks. I was genuinely surprised when I got to the end and saw his name at the bottom. He is better than this.

    I thought so too actually. It's a shame when a point of view is overdone like this. Have you seen the film Vice? We went to watch it (and I have to say I didnt know who Dick Cheney was!), and left on his side, so overdone was the bias and unfunny were the jokes.

    It seems that left leaning critics don't trust us to make up our minds correctly, so feel the need to hammer the point home by repeatedly using a variant of the most extreme example as an illustration. After a while the patronisation leaves more of an impression than the point they want to make.

    So Dick Cheney was a bad guy apparently. But taking the mickey out of him having a heart attack etc was not the way to persuade me to hate him.
    I thought he was portrayed as human and quite smart.
    He was, and 100% irredeemably evil. It was a pale imitation of The Big Short. That also demonised it's villains but made a much tighter argument so I was happy to go along with it.
    Laundromat was equally awful for the same reason. Just extensions of two minutes of hate
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    326 have had a pretty good prediction accuracy, and I like their error bar and central prediction format. This is what they are predicting for Super Tuesday:

    https://twitter.com/326Pols/status/1234203866343919616?s=09
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    For reference: Spanish flu killed at least 40 million people, or 2% of the world's population, and perhaps as many as 5%. The lower part of that range would put it on a par for deathliness with WW1 or WW2.
    Spanish flu had a 10 to 20% death rate on most estimates so I think that chart rather underestimates its fatality rate.

    http://influenzavirusnet.com/1918-flu-pandemic/mortality.html

    However I learnt today my godfather has a malignant brain tumour sadly which does rather put into context some panicking about catching coronavirus with just a 1 to 2% death rate
    I am sorry to hear that.

    Normally I'd leave it at that, but you do realise if it's a primary it has an incidence rate of the order of .01%? So it hardly gives the context you think it does.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    geoffw said:

    Too little has been made of the disparity in mortality between young and old. Repeating the mantra that only (!) 2% who catch it are likely to die from it ignores the fact that for the older part of the population if you catch it then the odds of death are more like Russian roulette, or getting six in a throw of a die.
    I'm not wanting to scaremonger, but I'd like to see more consideration of that.

    A key point. When Italy reached 17 deaths, the lead epidemiologist in the main Italian hospital said that in his opinion 14 of them were already on their way out with other serious conditions, and only 3 could be considered ‘out of the blue’ deaths from Corona.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264

    Chameleon said:

    matt said:

    Can we have a rule limiting the amount of time we talk about coronavirus on here each day, please?

    It's fucking boring.

    I’m just impressed how one person has time to adopt 3 different identities and maintain a consistent, suitably hysterical and self-congratulatory style.
    I dunno why he can't at least try something else. Watch Netflix. Go for a walk. Sketch a garden bird. Do a brass rubbing. Savour a pint. Have a wank.

    Anything.
    There's nothing stopping people talking about other topics, but generally on PB we talk about the news. Coronavirus is dominating the news, and potentially has profound impact on all politics going forwards.
    No. It's @eadric and his incessant 24/7 masturbation about the virus that is fast making this site unbearable.

    Don't encourage him.
    As annoying as you may find it, there's a credible case that it's currently 1st of June 2016 with regards to the next 4 years of politics.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    Chameleon said:

    Chameleon said:

    matt said:

    Can we have a rule limiting the amount of time we talk about coronavirus on here each day, please?

    It's fucking boring.

    I’m just impressed how one person has time to adopt 3 different identities and maintain a consistent, suitably hysterical and self-congratulatory style.
    I dunno why he can't at least try something else. Watch Netflix. Go for a walk. Sketch a garden bird. Do a brass rubbing. Savour a pint. Have a wank.

    Anything.
    There's nothing stopping people talking about other topics, but generally on PB we talk about the news. Coronavirus is dominating the news, and potentially has profound impact on all politics going forwards.
    No. It's @eadric and his incessant 24/7 masturbation about the virus that is fast making this site unbearable.

    Don't encourage him.
    As annoying as you may find it, there's a credible case that it's currently 1st of June 2016 with regards to the next 4 years of politics.
    He is the Super Spreader!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    If you put the mortality rate of say 2% in betting terms its like picking the bonus ball in the Lottery - Not likely but when death is at stake you would be nervous before the Balls are released , certainly not been able to concentrate on 'In it to win it" beforehand

    But the mortality rate is already 1%.
  • Foxy said:

    326 have had a pretty good prediction accuracy, and I like their error bar and central prediction format. This is what they are predicting for Super Tuesday:

    https://twitter.com/326Pols/status/1234203866343919616?s=09

    So glad I got Sanders at 10 to 1, my betting prediction is back on the up I hope after the election.

    Called Starmer right for leader I hope and got Sanders as well.

    Sanders vs Trump, who will win?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,864
    I'm sorry but Covid-19 is the story of the day and dominates all others.

    If we talk about Brexit it shows how utterly trivial and inconsequential that is going to be and how incredibly unfit for purpose our political class is that they has spent 3 years+ obsessing on it to the exclusion of almost all else.

    If we talk about the US election then the virus looks set to show the utter incompetence and dishonesty of Trump along with the futility and moral repulsiveness of the best medical system on the planet for a minority of the population.

    If we want to talk about the future of Boris then the fact we are almost certainly heading into a recession caused by disruption of international supply lines has a major impact on his prospects.

    If we talk about infrastructure/HS2/Heathrow/ global warming then a world where international travel is much reduced, airports are shunned and supply lines shortened has a material impact on each of these issues.

    Our world is about to change in a material way. Even as an optimist on the medical consequences of the virus I can see that.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    If you put the mortality rate of say 2% in betting terms its like picking the bonus ball in the Lottery - Not likely but when death is at stake you would be nervous before the Balls are released , certainly not been able to concentrate on 'In it to win it" beforehand

    Throwing double 6 with dice = 2.77%. If you play board games very infrequently it's a slightly unusual thing to happen, but it isn't hold the front page/put me live to air either.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    IanB2 said:

    If you put the mortality rate of say 2% in betting terms its like picking the bonus ball in the Lottery - Not likely but when death is at stake you would be nervous before the Balls are released , certainly not been able to concentrate on 'In it to win it" beforehand

    But the mortality rate is already 1%.
    Spin a coin beforehand then and if correct no need to play !
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060
    If talking about the Coronavirus is boring, we could always talk about Brexit? Just saying... :grimace:
  • I am honestly quite pissed off now.

    You keep going on about trying to change the topic, I try and you just ignore me.

    Hypocrites.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    IshmaelZ said:

    If you put the mortality rate of say 2% in betting terms its like picking the bonus ball in the Lottery - Not likely but when death is at stake you would be nervous before the Balls are released , certainly not been able to concentrate on 'In it to win it" beforehand

    Throwing double 6 with dice = 2.77%. If you play board games very infrequently it's a slightly unusual thing to happen, but it isn't hold the front page/put me live to air either.
    Very retro. Very few board games have dice, nowadays.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    IanB2 said:

    geoffw said:

    Too little has been made of the disparity in mortality between young and old. Repeating the mantra that only (!) 2% who catch it are likely to die from it ignores the fact that for the older part of the population if you catch it then the odds of death are more like Russian roulette, or getting six in a throw of a die.
    I'm not wanting to scaremonger, but I'd like to see more consideration of that.

    A key point. When Italy reached 17 deaths, the lead epidemiologist in the main Italian hospital said that in his opinion 14 of them were already on their way out with other serious conditions, and only 3 could be considered ‘out of the blue’ deaths from Corona.
    We are all "on the way out", just at different speeds. But the implication of frankly enormous risk for the over 70s with a condition should give rise to ideas about how that can be mitigated. Bluntly, for anyone in their 60s or younger this disease hardly looks serious. But for the others ..

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,623
    IshmaelZ said:

    If you put the mortality rate of say 2% in betting terms its like picking the bonus ball in the Lottery - Not likely but when death is at stake you would be nervous before the Balls are released , certainly not been able to concentrate on 'In it to win it" beforehand

    Throwing double 6 with dice = 2.77%. If you play board games very infrequently it's a slightly unusual thing to happen, but it isn't hold the front page/put me live to air either.
    It probably happens somewhere around one in 36 throws of the two dice ;)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited March 2020

    If you put the mortality rate of say 2% in betting terms its like picking the bonus ball in the Lottery - Not likely but when death is at stake you would be nervous before the Balls are released , certainly not been able to concentrate on 'In it to win it" beforehand

    Unlike the Lottery, that is one contest we are all guaranteed to win. Eventually.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148
    eadric said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    For reference: Spanish flu killed at least 40 million people, or 2% of the world's population, and perhaps as many as 5%. The lower part of that range would put it on a par for deathliness with WW1 or WW2.
    Spanish flu had a 10 to 20% death rate on most estimates so I think that chart rather underestimates its fatality rate.

    http://influenzavirusnet.com/1918-flu-pandemic/mortality.html

    However I learnt today my godfather has a malignant brain tumour sadly which does rather put into context some panicking about catching coronavirus with just a 1 to 2% death rate
    That's sad. Sorry to hear
    Thank you, we are all going to die of something eventually and for most of us it will not be coronavirus
  • Sorry to hear @HYUFD
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Foxy said:

    326 have had a pretty good prediction accuracy, and I like their error bar and central prediction format. This is what they are predicting for Super Tuesday:

    https://twitter.com/326Pols/status/1234203866343919616?s=09

    So glad I got Sanders at 10 to 1, my betting prediction is back on the up I hope after the election.

    Called Starmer right for leader I hope and got Sanders as well.

    Sanders vs Trump, who will win?
    It depends mainly on how c*****v***s progresses from here.

    See the problem?
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    edited March 2020
    IshmaelZ said:

    If you put the mortality rate of say 2% in betting terms its like picking the bonus ball in the Lottery - Not likely but when death is at stake you would be nervous before the Balls are released , certainly not been able to concentrate on 'In it to win it" beforehand

    Throwing double 6 with dice = 2.77%. If you play board games very infrequently it's a slightly unusual thing to happen, but it isn't hold the front page/put me live to air either.
    Significant variance in that.

    Even in an semi-overwhelmed healthcare system (e.g. Wuhan - where they imported 0.7 medical professionals per case!) my odds of dying from it is between 0.1% to 0.5% (somewhat fit person in 20s). Someone else picks up my remaining 2.3%.

    If you're 75+, or 50+ with pre-existing conditions (e.g. diabetes, cardiovascular disease etc.) then roll two die. 10, 11, or 12* and you're out.

    If you fit into those categories have a go: https://www.random.org/dice/?num=2

    * if we do get a 20k+ cases in the UK mortality rates in those groups will increase even more, so add 9 to the death group for that scenario.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm sorry but Covid-19 is the story of the day and dominates all others.

    If we talk about Brexit it shows how utterly trivial and inconsequential that is going to be and how incredibly unfit for purpose our political class is that they has spent 3 years+ obsessing on it to the exclusion of almost all else.

    If we talk about the US election then the virus looks set to show the utter incompetence and dishonesty of Trump along with the futility and moral repulsiveness of the best medical system on the planet for a minority of the population.

    If we want to talk about the future of Boris then the fact we are almost certainly heading into a recession caused by disruption of international supply lines has a major impact on his prospects.

    If we talk about infrastructure/HS2/Heathrow/ global warming then a world where international travel is much reduced, airports are shunned and supply lines shortened has a material impact on each of these issues.

    Our world is about to change in a material way. Even as an optimist on the medical consequences of the virus I can see that.

    This is an excellent, lucid, trenchant interview with Nouriel Roubini talking about the economic and political impact of the c-word.

    He reckons it's a global disaster, stocks will fall 30-40%, and Trump is doomed.

    Well worth a read. But it's not very cheering.

    https://www.spiegel.de/international/business/nouriel-roubini-on-coronavirus-this-crisis-will-spill-over-and-result-in-a-disaster-a-e811cf3b-d495-4c52-bf79-d872c8f164ac
    Eh? It says Trump is guaranteed to lose. Guaranteed - “quote him on that”.

    Or are you only picking out the bits of his prediction that you fancy?

    Interesting that he is suggesting public spaces like restaurants in New York are already half empty. I am not seeing that yet in the UK.
  • How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,570

    Starmer.

    Anyone.

    Keir Starmer.

    The problem you have is that in a way it appears from the outside that it almost doesn't matter who wins the Labour leadership.

    If Starmer wins he will still have to deal with a membership and an executive that basically thinks the only problem with the last election was they weren't left wing enough or their message was drowned by Brexit.

    They have a wilful blindness to the fact that, for the vast majority of centre voters including many on the centre left, Corbyn's politics - and that of the party machine that supported him - is viewed with horror and disbelief.

    As and when Starmer wins he will have to restart the process that Kinnock initiated of ending the power of the far left within the party and returning it to a more centrist but still recognisably left wing position. This does not mean going all Blairite but it does mean trying to draw a line under the culture wars that the left have been increasingly engaged in over the past decade.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    Chameleon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    If you put the mortality rate of say 2% in betting terms its like picking the bonus ball in the Lottery - Not likely but when death is at stake you would be nervous before the Balls are released , certainly not been able to concentrate on 'In it to win it" beforehand

    Throwing double 6 with dice = 2.77%. If you play board games very infrequently it's a slightly unusual thing to happen, but it isn't hold the front page/put me live to air either.
    Significant variance in that.

    Even in an semi-overwhelmed healthcare system (e.g. Wuhan - where they imported 0.7 medical professionals per case!) my odds of dying from it is between 0.1% to 0.5% (somewhat fit person in 20s). Someone else picks up my remaining 2.3%.

    If you're 75+, or 50+ with pre-existing conditions (e.g. diabetes, cardiovascular disease etc.) then roll two die. 10, 11, or 12 and you're out.
    I was going to "like" this post. But like is the wrong word. It's almost terrifying.

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Sandpit said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    If you put the mortality rate of say 2% in betting terms its like picking the bonus ball in the Lottery - Not likely but when death is at stake you would be nervous before the Balls are released , certainly not been able to concentrate on 'In it to win it" beforehand

    Throwing double 6 with dice = 2.77%. If you play board games very infrequently it's a slightly unusual thing to happen, but it isn't hold the front page/put me live to air either.
    It probably happens somewhere around one in 36 throws of the two dice ;)
    Yes, dummy.

    I was asked to choose a bit ago whether to have a 6 month course of chemotherapy to improve my chances of survival by 3%. I found it helpful to translate the odds to: do I want to bet my life on something fractionally more likely than throwing double six, not happening? I thought others would possibly find stating the same equivalence useful.

    2.78, actually.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060

    How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

    Brexit
  • Starmer.

    Anyone.

    Keir Starmer.

    The problem you have is that in a way it appears from the outside that it almost doesn't matter who wins the Labour leadership.

    If Starmer wins he will still have to deal with a membership and an executive that basically thinks the only problem with the last election was they weren't left wing enough or their message was drowned by Brexit.

    They have a wilful blindness to the fact that, for the vast majority of centre voters including many on the centre left, Corbyn's politics - and that of the party machine that supported him - is viewed with horror and disbelief.

    As and when Starmer wins he will have to restart the process that Kinnock initiated of ending the power of the far left within the party and returning it to a more centrist but still recognisably left wing position. This does not mean going all Blairite but it does mean trying to draw a line under the culture wars that the left have been increasingly engaged in over the past decade.
    100% agree Richard. As a former Corbynite the Corbynites must go.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    Chameleon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    If you put the mortality rate of say 2% in betting terms its like picking the bonus ball in the Lottery - Not likely but when death is at stake you would be nervous before the Balls are released , certainly not been able to concentrate on 'In it to win it" beforehand

    Throwing double 6 with dice = 2.77%. If you play board games very infrequently it's a slightly unusual thing to happen, but it isn't hold the front page/put me live to air either.
    Significant variance in that.

    Even in an semi-overwhelmed healthcare system (e.g. Wuhan - where they imported 0.7 medical professionals per case!) my odds of dying from it is between 0.1% to 0.5% (somewhat fit person in 20s). Someone else picks up my remaining 2.3%.

    If you're 75+, or 50+ with pre-existing conditions (e.g. diabetes, cardiovascular disease etc.) then roll two die. 10, 11, or 12* and you're out.

    If you fit into those categories have a go: https://www.random.org/dice/?num=2

    * if we do get a 20k+ cases in the UK mortality rates in those groups will increase even more, so add 9 to the death group for that scenario.
    First craps game on PB!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491

    matt said:

    Can we have a rule limiting the amount of time we talk about coronavirus on here each day, please?

    It's fucking boring.

    I’m just impressed how one person has time to adopt 3 different identities and maintain a consistent, suitably hysterical and self-congratulatory style.
    I dunno why he can't at least try something else. Watch Netflix. Go for a walk. Sketch a garden bird. Do a brass rubbing. Savour a pint. Have a wank.

    Anything.
    Maybe you should try Netflix, a walk, sketching, etc.
    I'm fine. I've been doing that all day. Spending the weekend with my daughter.

    It's the utter obsessives I worry about.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,570

    Starmer.

    Anyone.

    Keir Starmer.

    The problem you have is that in a way it appears from the outside that it almost doesn't matter who wins the Labour leadership.

    If Starmer wins he will still have to deal with a membership and an executive that basically thinks the only problem with the last election was they weren't left wing enough or their message was drowned by Brexit.

    They have a wilful blindness to the fact that, for the vast majority of centre voters including many on the centre left, Corbyn's politics - and that of the party machine that supported him - is viewed with horror and disbelief.

    As and when Starmer wins he will have to restart the process that Kinnock initiated of ending the power of the far left within the party and returning it to a more centrist but still recognisably left wing position. This does not mean going all Blairite but it does mean trying to draw a line under the culture wars that the left have been increasingly engaged in over the past decade.
    100% agree Richard. As a former Corbynite the Corbynites must go.
    The trouble is that, with the current constitutional arrangements within the Labour party I don't see how Starmer can achieve that.

    Bear in mind I speak as someone thoroughly opposed to Labour and the left in general but who believes we need a strong, politically engaged and aggressive opposition to hold a Government to account.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:
    Alternately they are astonishingly high for a previously Republican billionaire running for the Democratic nomination with poor debating performance, interesting views on minorities and vast ad buys.
    Reflects the quality of the field I'm afraid. If the field contained a Bill Clinton or Barak Obama he would be absolutely nowhere. But it doesn't.
    I spent the last four years asking my Democrat relatives in the US for the name of a Democrat who met the following criteria -

    1) Preferably a (ex?) governor of a state.
    2) Good at speaking and debates.
    3) Between 40 and 60
    4) Not actually made of money or owned by Goldman Sachs.
    5) Some policies would be nice.

    Instead we have a final between Bernie and Bidden.
    I thought Hickenlooper would have done better than he did.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,880
    India still stubbornly stuck on 3 covid cases for nearly 2 weeks.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148

    Sorry to hear @HYUFD

    Thanks CHB
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    eadric said:

    I am honestly quite pissed off now.

    You keep going on about trying to change the topic, I try and you just ignore me.

    Hypocrites.

    Though you have illustrated the problem. We simply CAN'T stop talking about it, because it is so vast, important and unnerving. We will try, and we will fail.
    Anyway about that domestic wood fire ban-----
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,120

    How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

    About 700 pounds...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491
    eadric said:

    I am honestly quite pissed off now.

    You keep going on about trying to change the topic, I try and you just ignore me.

    Hypocrites.

    Though you have illustrated the problem. We simply CAN'T stop talking about it, because it is so vast, important and unnerving. We will try, and we will fail.
    Well, you certainly will.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491
    HYUFD said:

    eadric said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    For reference: Spanish flu killed at least 40 million people, or 2% of the world's population, and perhaps as many as 5%. The lower part of that range would put it on a par for deathliness with WW1 or WW2.
    Spanish flu had a 10 to 20% death rate on most estimates so I think that chart rather underestimates its fatality rate.

    http://influenzavirusnet.com/1918-flu-pandemic/mortality.html

    However I learnt today my godfather has a malignant brain tumour sadly which does rather put into context some panicking about catching coronavirus with just a 1 to 2% death rate
    That's sad. Sorry to hear
    Thank you, we are all going to die of something eventually and for most of us it will not be coronavirus
    Sorry to hear your news.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491

    Foxy said:

    326 have had a pretty good prediction accuracy, and I like their error bar and central prediction format. This is what they are predicting for Super Tuesday:

    https://twitter.com/326Pols/status/1234203866343919616?s=09

    So glad I got Sanders at 10 to 1, my betting prediction is back on the up I hope after the election.

    Called Starmer right for leader I hope and got Sanders as well.

    Sanders vs Trump, who will win?
    I think Bloomberg might perform at the lower end of that.

    His polling is degrading day by day.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,880
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    For reference: Spanish flu killed at least 40 million people, or 2% of the world's population, and perhaps as many as 5%. The lower part of that range would put it on a par for deathliness with WW1 or WW2.
    Spanish flu had a 10 to 20% death rate on most estimates so I think that chart rather underestimates its fatality rate.

    http://influenzavirusnet.com/1918-flu-pandemic/mortality.html

    However I learnt today my godfather has a malignant brain tumour sadly which does rather put into context some panicking about catching coronavirus with just a 1 to 2% death rate
    Sorry to hear about that.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,864
    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm sorry but Covid-19 is the story of the day and dominates all others.

    If we talk about Brexit it shows how utterly trivial and inconsequential that is going to be and how incredibly unfit for purpose our political class is that they has spent 3 years+ obsessing on it to the exclusion of almost all else.

    If we talk about the US election then the virus looks set to show the utter incompetence and dishonesty of Trump along with the futility and moral repulsiveness of the best medical system on the planet for a minority of the population.

    If we want to talk about the future of Boris then the fact we are almost certainly heading into a recession caused by disruption of international supply lines has a major impact on his prospects.

    If we talk about infrastructure/HS2/Heathrow/ global warming then a world where international travel is much reduced, airports are shunned and supply lines shortened has a material impact on each of these issues.

    Our world is about to change in a material way. Even as an optimist on the medical consequences of the virus I can see that.

    This is an excellent, lucid, trenchant interview with Nouriel Roubini talking about the economic and political impact of the c-word.

    He reckons it's a global disaster, stocks will fall 30-40%, and Trump is doomed.

    Well worth a read. But it's not very cheering.

    https://www.spiegel.de/international/business/nouriel-roubini-on-coronavirus-this-crisis-will-spill-over-and-result-in-a-disaster-a-e811cf3b-d495-4c52-bf79-d872c8f164ac
    I find the economics persuasive. The politics a lot less so.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,120
    edited March 2020
    FFS...You think you might have it, so you get on a plane...

    'My eyes felt on fire': Couple and two small children are rushed for coronavirus tests after returning from Venice with flu-like symptoms

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8061779/My-eyes-felt-fire-Medics-hazmat-suits-rush-couple-two-children-coronavirus-tests.html

    The government needs to start drilling this into people, if you development what might be the virus, self-isolate, etc etc etc. We really are going to have a loads of idiots get on the bus / tube and turn up at A&E aren't we.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,570
    eadric said:

    IanB2 said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm sorry but Covid-19 is the story of the day and dominates all others.

    If we talk about Brexit it shows how utterly trivial and inconsequential that is going to be and how incredibly unfit for purpose our political class is that they has spent 3 years+ obsessing on it to the exclusion of almost all else.

    If we talk about the US election then the virus looks set to show the utter incompetence and dishonesty of Trump along with the futility and moral repulsiveness of the best medical system on the planet for a minority of the population.

    If we want to talk about the future of Boris then the fact we are almost certainly heading into a recession caused by disruption of international supply lines has a major impact on his prospects.

    If we talk about infrastructure/HS2/Heathrow/ global warming then a world where international travel is much reduced, airports are shunned and supply lines shortened has a material impact on each of these issues.

    Our world is about to change in a material way. Even as an optimist on the medical consequences of the virus I can see that.

    This is an excellent, lucid, trenchant interview with Nouriel Roubini talking about the economic and political impact of the c-word.

    He reckons it's a global disaster, stocks will fall 30-40%, and Trump is doomed.

    Well worth a read. But it's not very cheering.

    https://www.spiegel.de/international/business/nouriel-roubini-on-coronavirus-this-crisis-will-spill-over-and-result-in-a-disaster-a-e811cf3b-d495-4c52-bf79-d872c8f164ac
    Eh? It says Trump is guaranteed to lose. Guaranteed - “quote him on that”.

    Or are you only picking out the bits of his prediction that you fancy?

    Interesting that he is suggesting public spaces like restaurants in New York are already half empty. I am not seeing that yet in the UK.
    You what? I said he says "Trump is doomed". That's his opinion.

    FWIW I agree with him. A major recession is coming, maybe even a Depression, and it is coming fast. The economy was Trump's big thing (along with all the culture was stuff, which will soon feel v trivial).

    He surely loses.
    I am not sure that is necessarily the case. It would depend upon his opponents being able to paint the recession as being due to him rather than due to the Pandemic. That would be a tough call unless they can clearly show his failings made the situation worse in the US.

    I am inclined to think that in fact the CV could end up helping rather than hindering his re-election as it would serve as a cover for any Trump induced recession.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264

    Foxy said:

    326 have had a pretty good prediction accuracy, and I like their error bar and central prediction format. This is what they are predicting for Super Tuesday:

    https://twitter.com/326Pols/status/1234203866343919616?s=09

    So glad I got Sanders at 10 to 1, my betting prediction is back on the up I hope after the election.

    Called Starmer right for leader I hope and got Sanders as well.

    Sanders vs Trump, who will win?
    I think Bloomberg might perform at the lower end of that.

    His polling is degrading day by day.
    Yeah, I see Biden outperforming, and Bloomberg underperforming that significantly.
  • HYUFD said:
    The best thing when Trump hopefully goes is not having to see these nutty Tweets anymore
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,120
    edited March 2020

    HYUFD said:
    The best thing when Trump hopefully goes is not having to see these nutty Tweets anymore
    You will think he will go quietly and spent less time on the twitter machine when he doesn't have half his day taken up with government meetings?
  • HYUFD said:

    Sorry to hear @HYUFD

    Thanks CHB
    Good to talk to you again, stay strong my friend.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    Roubini: "This crisis is a supply shock that you can’t fight with monetary or fiscal policy."
    I pointed this out here a couple of weeks ago.
  • HYUFD said:
    The best thing when Trump hopefully goes is not having to see these nutty Tweets anymore
    You will think he will go quietly and spent less time on the twitter machine when he doesn't have half his day taken up with government meetings?
    They won't get posted here, I hope.
  • Missed contributing here and apologies for my outburst earlier.

    Also I hope you all see that I didn't run away despite being very wrong, as promised.
  • Should I get my money out of eToro?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609

    Missed contributing here and apologies for my outburst earlier.

    Also I hope you all see that I didn't run away despite being very wrong, as promised.

    Perhaps you could post that only 4 more people will succumb to the virus we cannot name.

    To keep on a roll..... ;)
  • Do we reckon the current UK quarter is probably negative now?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    stodge said:

    I think for those with pre-existing conditions particularly cardiovascular or respiratory there is genuine cause for concern while recognising the coronavirus in and of itself isn't the problem but the exacerbation of the current condition.

    Other conditions with high coronavirus death rates include diabetes, hypertension, and cancer - roughly as high as for respiratory but not as high as for cardiovascular. (Source.) The death rate among the infected is also higher for men (4.7%) than for women (2.8%).

    The problem is that all those conditions probably correlate quite strongly with age. It would be more meaningful to correct for age somehow.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,019
    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm sorry but Covid-19 is the story of the day and dominates all others.

    If we talk about Brexit it shows how utterly trivial and inconsequential that is going to be and how incredibly unfit for purpose our political class is that they has spent 3 years+ obsessing on it to the exclusion of almost all else.

    If we talk about the US election then the virus looks set to show the utter incompetence and dishonesty of Trump along with the futility and moral repulsiveness of the best medical system on the planet for a minority of the population.

    If we want to talk about the future of Boris then the fact we are almost certainly heading into a recession caused by disruption of international supply lines has a major impact on his prospects.

    If we talk about infrastructure/HS2/Heathrow/ global warming then a world where international travel is much reduced, airports are shunned and supply lines shortened has a material impact on each of these issues.

    Our world is about to change in a material way. Even as an optimist on the medical consequences of the virus I can see that.

    This is an excellent, lucid, trenchant interview with Nouriel Roubini talking about the economic and political impact of the c-word.

    He reckons it's a global disaster, stocks will fall 30-40%, and Trump is doomed.

    Well worth a read. But it's not very cheering.

    https://www.spiegel.de/international/business/nouriel-roubini-on-coronavirus-this-crisis-will-spill-over-and-result-in-a-disaster-a-e811cf3b-d495-4c52-bf79-d872c8f164ac
    I find the economics persuasive. The politics a lot less so.
    What do you reckon the markets will do tomorrow?

    There have been several developments over the weekend which will impact. Mostly the first death in the USA. but also clear signs of epidemic spread in France. Germany, Spain, possibly the UK.

    Nothing good has happened to help the markets.

    Shall we have a go at predicting, for fun? We gotta get some fun out of this.

    I reckon the DJ will have another seizure. 3-4% fall. Europe will be bad as well. Particularly France and Germany. Maybe a 5% drop.
    Europe also has the Greek situation to contend with.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,864
    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm sorry but Covid-19 is the story of the day and dominates all others.

    If we talk about Brexit it shows how utterly trivial and inconsequential that is going to be and how incredibly unfit for purpose our political class is that they has spent 3 years+ obsessing on it to the exclusion of almost all else.

    If we talk about the US election then the virus looks set to show the utter incompetence and dishonesty of Trump along with the futility and moral repulsiveness of the best medical system on the planet for a minority of the population.

    If we want to talk about the future of Boris then the fact we are almost certainly heading into a recession caused by disruption of international supply lines has a major impact on his prospects.

    If we talk about infrastructure/HS2/Heathrow/ global warming then a world where international travel is much reduced, airports are shunned and supply lines shortened has a material impact on each of these issues.

    Our world is about to change in a material way. Even as an optimist on the medical consequences of the virus I can see that.

    This is an excellent, lucid, trenchant interview with Nouriel Roubini talking about the economic and political impact of the c-word.

    He reckons it's a global disaster, stocks will fall 30-40%, and Trump is doomed.

    Well worth a read. But it's not very cheering.

    https://www.spiegel.de/international/business/nouriel-roubini-on-coronavirus-this-crisis-will-spill-over-and-result-in-a-disaster-a-e811cf3b-d495-4c52-bf79-d872c8f164ac
    I find the economics persuasive. The politics a lot less so.
    What do you reckon the markets will do tomorrow?

    There have been several developments over the weekend which will impact. Mostly the first death in the USA. but also clear signs of epidemic spread in France. Germany, Spain, possibly the UK.

    Nothing good has happened to help the markets.

    Shall we have a go at predicting, for fun? We gotta get some fun out of this.

    I reckon the DJ will have another seizure. 3-4% fall. Europe will be bad as well. Particularly France and Germany. Maybe a 5% drop.
    Disappointingly, I would guess something similar. FTSE down 3-4%, Germany probably a bit worse. God knows what Milan does: shut?

    The Dow maybe not quite as bad. I suspect we may well see the Fed buying equities at some point this week. Trump absolutely loathes stock market falls, he sees them as votes of no confidence.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    edited March 2020
    geoffw said:

    Chameleon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    If you put the mortality rate of say 2% in betting terms its like picking the bonus ball in the Lottery - Not likely but when death is at stake you would be nervous before the Balls are released , certainly not been able to concentrate on 'In it to win it" beforehand

    Throwing double 6 with dice = 2.77%. If you play board games very infrequently it's a slightly unusual thing to happen, but it isn't hold the front page/put me live to air either.
    Significant variance in that.

    Even in an semi-overwhelmed healthcare system (e.g. Wuhan - where they imported 0.7 medical professionals per case!) my odds of dying from it is between 0.1% to 0.5% (somewhat fit person in 20s). Someone else picks up my remaining 2.3%.

    If you're 75+, or 50+ with pre-existing conditions (e.g. diabetes, cardiovascular disease etc.) then roll two die. 10, 11, or 12 and you're out.
    I was going to "like" this post. But like is the wrong word. It's almost terrifying.

    It's not great.

    Then factor in that in a fully overwhelmed system 9 needs to be added in.

    I've had a few goes for my parents and remaining grandparent, and I'm not too keen on the results either. https://www.random.org/dice/?num=2

    If I was a 60+ year old retired person I'd have 3 months of food at home, some good books and a plan to not leave until it all blows over a bit.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    eadric said:

    geoffw said:

    Roubini: "This crisis is a supply shock that you can’t fight with monetary or fiscal policy."
    I pointed this out here a couple of weeks ago.

    It's a supply shock AND a demand shock. People don't want to buy movies, houses, cars, dinners, anything. They want sanitiser and lentils.
    If there were no drop in demand then the global supply shock would be seriously inflationary. As it is the main outcome will probably be the global drop in output with less of an effect on prices. Whatever, there's no obvious policy that can rectify it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609

    Do we reckon the current UK quarter is probably negative now?

    Do we think ANYWHERE will have a positive 1st Quarter 2020?
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    edited March 2020

    Do we reckon the current UK quarter is probably negative now?

    Definitely not yet. January will have been strong because of the post election slight bounce, so far supply or consumption hasn't been affected (negatively) in February, then it all depends how March goes.

    I am certain that France and Italy will have a negative 20Q1, and hence be in recession. Germany will be negative and will record 0.0% growth 19Q4 and 20Q1 negative.
  • Do we reckon the current UK quarter is probably negative now?

    Do we think ANYWHERE will have a positive 1st Quarter 2020?
    That means we're headed for a recession.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,864
    Foss said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm sorry but Covid-19 is the story of the day and dominates all others.

    If we talk about Brexit it shows how utterly trivial and inconsequential that is going to be and how incredibly unfit for purpose our political class is that they has spent 3 years+ obsessing on it to the exclusion of almost all else.

    If we talk about the US election then the virus looks set to show the utter incompetence and dishonesty of Trump along with the futility and moral repulsiveness of the best medical system on the planet for a minority of the population.

    If we want to talk about the future of Boris then the fact we are almost certainly heading into a recession caused by disruption of international supply lines has a major impact on his prospects.

    If we talk about infrastructure/HS2/Heathrow/ global warming then a world where international travel is much reduced, airports are shunned and supply lines shortened has a material impact on each of these issues.

    Our world is about to change in a material way. Even as an optimist on the medical consequences of the virus I can see that.

    This is an excellent, lucid, trenchant interview with Nouriel Roubini talking about the economic and political impact of the c-word.

    He reckons it's a global disaster, stocks will fall 30-40%, and Trump is doomed.

    Well worth a read. But it's not very cheering.

    https://www.spiegel.de/international/business/nouriel-roubini-on-coronavirus-this-crisis-will-spill-over-and-result-in-a-disaster-a-e811cf3b-d495-4c52-bf79-d872c8f164ac
    I find the economics persuasive. The politics a lot less so.
    What do you reckon the markets will do tomorrow?

    There have been several developments over the weekend which will impact. Mostly the first death in the USA. but also clear signs of epidemic spread in France. Germany, Spain, possibly the UK.

    Nothing good has happened to help the markets.

    Shall we have a go at predicting, for fun? We gotta get some fun out of this.

    I reckon the DJ will have another seizure. 3-4% fall. Europe will be bad as well. Particularly France and Germany. Maybe a 5% drop.
    Europe also has the Greek situation to contend with.
    And the Syrian refugee issue. The strains that put on the border states and EU cohesiveness the last time was immense and there was not even a (legitimate) fear that they may be carrying this virus. Don't think that the Germans will be stepping up to the plate this time. Borders are going to have to close. Right now.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    DavidL said:

    Foss said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm sorry but Covid-19 is the story of the day and dominates all others.

    If we talk about Brexit it shows how utterly trivial and inconsequential that is going to be and how incredibly unfit for purpose our political class is that they has spent 3 years+ obsessing on it to the exclusion of almost all else.

    If we talk about the US election then the virus looks set to show the utter incompetence and dishonesty of Trump along with the futility and moral repulsiveness of the best medical system on the planet for a minority of the population.

    If we want to talk about the future of Boris then the fact we are almost certainly heading into a recession caused by disruption of international supply lines has a major impact on his prospects.

    If we talk about infrastructure/HS2/Heathrow/ global warming then a world where international travel is much reduced, airports are shunned and supply lines shortened has a material impact on each of these issues.

    Our world is about to change in a material way. Even as an optimist on the medical consequences of the virus I can see that.

    This is an excellent, lucid, trenchant interview with Nouriel Roubini talking about the economic and political impact of the c-word.

    He reckons it's a global disaster, stocks will fall 30-40%, and Trump is doomed.

    Well worth a read. But it's not very cheering.

    https://www.spiegel.de/international/business/nouriel-roubini-on-coronavirus-this-crisis-will-spill-over-and-result-in-a-disaster-a-e811cf3b-d495-4c52-bf79-d872c8f164ac
    I find the economics persuasive. The politics a lot less so.
    What do you reckon the markets will do tomorrow?

    There have been several developments over the weekend which will impact. Mostly the first death in the USA. but also clear signs of epidemic spread in France. Germany, Spain, possibly the UK.

    Nothing good has happened to help the markets.

    Shall we have a go at predicting, for fun? We gotta get some fun out of this.

    I reckon the DJ will have another seizure. 3-4% fall. Europe will be bad as well. Particularly France and Germany. Maybe a 5% drop.
    Europe also has the Greek situation to contend with.
    And the Syrian refugee issue. The strains that put on the border states and EU cohesiveness the last time was immense and there was not even a (legitimate) fear that they may be carrying this virus. Don't think that the Germans will be stepping up to the plate this time. Borders are going to have to close. Right now.
    Those places that constructed the fences are looking a bit smarter now.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    edited March 2020
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,864
    Chameleon said:

    DavidL said:

    Foss said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    This is an excellent, lucid, trenchant interview with Nouriel Roubini talking about the economic and political impact of the c-word.

    He reckons it's a global disaster, stocks will fall 30-40%, and Trump is doomed.

    Well worth a read. But it's not very cheering.

    https://www.spiegel.de/international/business/nouriel-roubini-on-coronavirus-this-crisis-will-spill-over-and-result-in-a-disaster-a-e811cf3b-d495-4c52-bf79-d872c8f164ac
    I find the economics persuasive. The politics a lot less so.
    What do you reckon the markets will do tomorrow?

    There have been several developments over the weekend which will impact. Mostly the first death in the USA. but also clear signs of epidemic spread in France. Germany, Spain, possibly the UK.

    Nothing good has happened to help the markets.

    Shall we have a go at predicting, for fun? We gotta get some fun out of this.

    I reckon the DJ will have another seizure. 3-4% fall. Europe will be bad as well. Particularly France and Germany. Maybe a 5% drop.
    Europe also has the Greek situation to contend with.
    And the Syrian refugee issue. The strains that put on the border states and EU cohesiveness the last time was immense and there was not even a (legitimate) fear that they may be carrying this virus. Don't think that the Germans will be stepping up to the plate this time. Borders are going to have to close. Right now.
    Those places that constructed the fences are looking a bit smarter now.
    I fear it will get violent. Shooting at plague carriers will seem a lot more acceptable than it did the last time. We're going to see some seriously emotive headlines.
  • Interest rates being what they are, how on Earth do we deal with a recession?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,120
    edited March 2020

    Interest rates being what they are, how on Earth do we deal with a recession?

    Fire up the printing presses...ECB is already gone for negative interest rates.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Chris said:

    stodge said:

    I think for those with pre-existing conditions particularly cardiovascular or respiratory there is genuine cause for concern while recognising the coronavirus in and of itself isn't the problem but the exacerbation of the current condition.

    Other conditions with high coronavirus death rates include diabetes, hypertension, and cancer - roughly as high as for respiratory but not as high as for cardiovascular. (Source.) The death rate among the infected is also higher for men (4.7%) than for women (2.8%).

    The problem is that all those conditions probably correlate quite strongly with age. It would be more meaningful to correct for age somehow.
    Not that it makes much difference, but is this a specific thing about this virus? I would have thought not: if I hear anyone 70+ has got an infection of any kind I think oh fck, whereas if they are sub 50 I think, They'll be fine.
  • eadric said:

    Chameleon said:

    Do we reckon the current UK quarter is probably negative now?

    Definitely not yet. January will have been strong because of the post election slight bounce, so far supply or consumption hasn't been affected (negatively) in February, then it all depends how March goes.

    I am certain that France and Italy will have a negative 20Q1, and hence be in recession. Germany will be negative and will record 0.0% growth 19Q4 and 20Q1 negative.
    I hate to be continuously pessimistic, but if so much economic activity essentially ceases, as it has in China, then we could get crazily bad GDP figures.

    -5%? -8%?
    GFC was 6%.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    DavidL: it's closing in. Latest Covid19 in Scotland - Tayside.
    Good thing there's a state of the art hospital there.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,484
    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    DavidL said:

    Foss said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    This is an excellent, lucid, trenchant interview with Nouriel Roubini talking about the economic and political impact of the c-word.

    He reckons it's a global disaster, stocks will fall 30-40%, and Trump is doomed.

    Well worth a read. But it's not very cheering.

    https://www.spiegel.de/international/business/nouriel-roubini-on-coronavirus-this-crisis-will-spill-over-and-result-in-a-disaster-a-e811cf3b-d495-4c52-bf79-d872c8f164ac
    I find the economics persuasive. The politics a lot less so.
    What do you reckon the markets will do tomorrow?

    There have been several developments over the weekend which will impact. Mostly the first death in the USA. but also clear signs of epidemic spread in France. Germany, Spain, possibly the UK.

    Nothing good has happened to help the markets.

    Shall we have a go at predicting, for fun? We gotta get some fun out of this.

    I reckon the DJ will have another seizure. 3-4% fall. Europe will be bad as well. Particularly France and Germany. Maybe a 5% drop.
    Europe also has the Greek situation to contend with.
    And the Syrian refugee issue. The strains that put on the border states and EU cohesiveness the last time was immense and there was not even a (legitimate) fear that they may be carrying this virus. Don't think that the Germans will be stepping up to the plate this time. Borders are going to have to close. Right now.
    Those places that constructed the fences are looking a bit smarter now.
    I fear it will get violent. Shooting at plague carriers will seem a lot more acceptable than it did the last time. We're going to see some seriously emotive headlines.
    Turkey needs to be put back into its box. The Ottoman Empire collapsed 200 years ago, and still they're marching into other countries with their size 12 hobnail boots.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    eadric said:

    Chameleon said:

    Do we reckon the current UK quarter is probably negative now?

    Definitely not yet. January will have been strong because of the post election slight bounce, so far supply or consumption hasn't been affected (negatively) in February, then it all depends how March goes.

    I am certain that France and Italy will have a negative 20Q1, and hence be in recession. Germany will be negative and will record 0.0% growth 19Q4 and 20Q1 negative.
    I hate to be continuously pessimistic, but if so much economic activity essentially ceases, as it has in China, then we could get crazily bad GDP figures.

    -5%? -8%?
    Yeah, if it takes off in the UK then March could be awful and put us negative for this quarter, but as of yet I do not think that the economy has shrunk in the first two months.

    FWIW I have us two weeks behind Italy. If anything virus panic will pull forward demand in March and I don't think that we'll see significant negative disruption until the end of the month. Q2 is likely be a bloodbath if this takes hold, and we can't start to talk about Q3 until we know where the UK is at the end of June.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,864

    Interest rates being what they are, how on Earth do we deal with a recession?

    The tool kit is not completely empty. We can use QE, interest rates can go negative, the government is about to launch what might prove to be a very well timed fiscal boost in infrastructure spending, there is quite a lot we can do. How much effect it can have in the face of the hurricane is harder to judge but the disruption will be focused on production and tourism/entertainment. That does leave quite a lot of our economy.

    Personally I think a negative Q1 figure is now very likely. Disappointing after a reasonable start to the year.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,864
    geoffw said:

    DavidL: it's closing in. Latest Covid19 in Scotland - Tayside.
    Good thing there's a state of the art hospital there.

    Yes, returning from Italy. Probably that bloody rugby match. Big mistake.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,120
    edited March 2020
    DavidL said:

    Interest rates being what they are, how on Earth do we deal with a recession?

    The tool kit is not completely empty. We can use QE, interest rates can go negative, the government is about to launch what might prove to be a very well timed fiscal boost in infrastructure spending, there is quite a lot we can do. How much effect it can have in the face of the hurricane is harder to judge but the disruption will be focused on production and tourism/entertainment. That does leave quite a lot of our economy.

    Personally I think a negative Q1 figure is now very likely. Disappointing after a reasonable start to the year.
    If the government had any sense, they would be looking to fast track every infrastructure plan in the pipeline and task people will identifying all the other worthwhile opportunities to get them going ASAP.

    It is what the Chinese do when they suffer a slow down.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,622
    edited March 2020

    DavidL said:

    Interest rates being what they are, how on Earth do we deal with a recession?

    The tool kit is not completely empty. We can use QE, interest rates can go negative, the government is about to launch what might prove to be a very well timed fiscal boost in infrastructure spending, there is quite a lot we can do. How much effect it can have in the face of the hurricane is harder to judge but the disruption will be focused on production and tourism/entertainment. That does leave quite a lot of our economy.

    Personally I think a negative Q1 figure is now very likely. Disappointing after a reasonable start to the year.
    If the government had any sense, they would be looking to fast track every infrastructure plan in the pipeline and task people will identifying all the other worthwhile opportunities to get them going ASAP.

    It is what the Chinese do when they suffer a slow down.
    The Budget could bring in tax changes to encourage domestic production and removed reliance on global supply chains.

    On a related note any suggestion of '"we don't need an agricultural sector" is now dead.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,864

    DavidL said:

    Interest rates being what they are, how on Earth do we deal with a recession?

    The tool kit is not completely empty. We can use QE, interest rates can go negative, the government is about to launch what might prove to be a very well timed fiscal boost in infrastructure spending, there is quite a lot we can do. How much effect it can have in the face of the hurricane is harder to judge but the disruption will be focused on production and tourism/entertainment. That does leave quite a lot of our economy.

    Personally I think a negative Q1 figure is now very likely. Disappointing after a reasonable start to the year.
    If the government had any sense, they would be looking to fast track every infrastructure plan in the pipeline and task people will identifying all the other worthwhile opportunities to get them going ASAP.

    It is what the Chinese do when they suffer a slow down.
    I certainly think that the budget will be more aggressive than originally planned and there will be complete indifference as to whether or not this breaches Treasury "rules". But its not going to be easy building roads and hospitals if a lot of your workforce is in quarantine or if you can't get the steel.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117

    Starmer.

    Anyone.

    Keir Starmer.

    The problem you have is that in a way it appears from the outside that it almost doesn't matter who wins the Labour leadership.

    If Starmer wins he will still have to deal with a membership and an executive that basically thinks the only problem with the last election was they weren't left wing enough or their message was drowned by Brexit.

    They have a wilful blindness to the fact that, for the vast majority of centre voters including many on the centre left, Corbyn's politics - and that of the party machine that supported him - is viewed with horror and disbelief.

    As and when Starmer wins he will have to restart the process that Kinnock initiated of ending the power of the far left within the party and returning it to a more centrist but still recognisably left wing position. This does not mean going all Blairite but it does mean trying to draw a line under the culture wars that the left have been increasingly engaged in over the past decade.
    100% agree Richard. As a former Corbynite the Corbynites must go.

    I think even the former Corbynites should go to...too much damage has been done by his ideological cult to allow even reformers to stay....

    Nick P sadly irritates the hell out of me by still twittering on about Corbyn as though he was somehow some force for good....
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,622
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Interest rates being what they are, how on Earth do we deal with a recession?

    The tool kit is not completely empty. We can use QE, interest rates can go negative, the government is about to launch what might prove to be a very well timed fiscal boost in infrastructure spending, there is quite a lot we can do. How much effect it can have in the face of the hurricane is harder to judge but the disruption will be focused on production and tourism/entertainment. That does leave quite a lot of our economy.

    Personally I think a negative Q1 figure is now very likely. Disappointing after a reasonable start to the year.
    If the government had any sense, they would be looking to fast track every infrastructure plan in the pipeline and task people will identifying all the other worthwhile opportunities to get them going ASAP.

    It is what the Chinese do when they suffer a slow down.
    I certainly think that the budget will be more aggressive than originally planned and there will be complete indifference as to whether or not this breaches Treasury "rules". But its not going to be easy building roads and hospitals if a lot of your workforce is in quarantine or if you can't get the steel.
    You can be sure that Scunthorpe steelworks is now safe.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    DavidL said:

    Foss said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    This is an excellent, lucid, trenchant interview with Nouriel Roubini talking about the economic and political impact of the c-word.

    He reckons it's a global disaster, stocks will fall 30-40%, and Trump is doomed.

    Well worth a read. But it's not very cheering.

    https://www.spiegel.de/international/business/nouriel-roubini-on-coronavirus-this-crisis-will-spill-over-and-result-in-a-disaster-a-e811cf3b-d495-4c52-bf79-d872c8f164ac
    I find the economics persuasive. The politics a lot less so.
    What do you reckon the markets will do tomorrow?

    There have been several developments over the weekend which will impact. Mostly the first death in the USA. but also clear signs of epidemic spread in France. Germany, Spain, possibly the UK.

    Nothing good has happened to help the markets.

    Shall we have a go at predicting, for fun? We gotta get some fun out of this.

    I reckon the DJ will have another seizure. 3-4% fall. Europe will be bad as well. Particularly France and Germany. Maybe a 5% drop.
    Europe also has the Greek situation to contend with.
    And the Syrian refugee issue. The strains that put on the border states and EU cohesiveness the last time was immense and there was not even a (legitimate) fear that they may be carrying this virus. Don't think that the Germans will be stepping up to the plate this time. Borders are going to have to close. Right now.
    Those places that constructed the fences are looking a bit smarter now.
    I fear it will get violent. Shooting at plague carriers will seem a lot more acceptable than it did the last time. We're going to see some seriously emotive headlines.
    Turkey needs to be put back into its box. The Ottoman Empire collapsed 200 years ago, and still they're marching into other countries with their size 12 hobnail boots.
    1924 is not ‘200 years ago.’
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,120
    edited March 2020
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Interest rates being what they are, how on Earth do we deal with a recession?

    The tool kit is not completely empty. We can use QE, interest rates can go negative, the government is about to launch what might prove to be a very well timed fiscal boost in infrastructure spending, there is quite a lot we can do. How much effect it can have in the face of the hurricane is harder to judge but the disruption will be focused on production and tourism/entertainment. That does leave quite a lot of our economy.

    Personally I think a negative Q1 figure is now very likely. Disappointing after a reasonable start to the year.
    If the government had any sense, they would be looking to fast track every infrastructure plan in the pipeline and task people will identifying all the other worthwhile opportunities to get them going ASAP.

    It is what the Chinese do when they suffer a slow down.
    I certainly think that the budget will be more aggressive than originally planned and there will be complete indifference as to whether or not this breaches Treasury "rules". But its not going to be easy building roads and hospitals if a lot of your workforce is in quarantine or if you can't get the steel.
    Of course, but it takes time and a lot of work to even get projects from the drawing board. Even if the government green lit a load of stuff next week, it wouldn't be getting built for months / years.

    What we want is all this stuff ready to go go go as soon as possible. Not the crap like Heathrow or HS2, where years and years later we still not anywhere.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Interest rates being what they are, how on Earth do we deal with a recession?

    The tool kit is not completely empty. We can use QE, interest rates can go negative, the government is about to launch what might prove to be a very well timed fiscal boost in infrastructure spending, there is quite a lot we can do. How much effect it can have in the face of the hurricane is harder to judge but the disruption will be focused on production and tourism/entertainment. That does leave quite a lot of our economy.

    Personally I think a negative Q1 figure is now very likely. Disappointing after a reasonable start to the year.
    If the government had any sense, they would be looking to fast track every infrastructure plan in the pipeline and task people will identifying all the other worthwhile opportunities to get them going ASAP.

    It is what the Chinese do when they suffer a slow down.
    I certainly think that the budget will be more aggressive than originally planned and there will be complete indifference as to whether or not this breaches Treasury "rules". But its not going to be easy building roads and hospitals if a lot of your workforce is in quarantine or if you can't get the steel.
    I think planning for this budget is about as much use as Pep planning his tactics to win the Champions League...or the Eavis's planning for Glastonbury....

  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    DavidL said:

    Foss said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    This is an excellent, lucid, trenchant interview with Nouriel Roubini talking about the economic and political impact of the c-word.

    He reckons it's a global disaster, stocks will fall 30-40%, and Trump is doomed.

    Well worth a read. But it's not very cheering.

    https://www.spiegel.de/international/business/nouriel-roubini-on-coronavirus-this-crisis-will-spill-over-and-result-in-a-disaster-a-e811cf3b-d495-4c52-bf79-d872c8f164ac
    I find the economics persuasive. The politics a lot less so.
    What do you reckon the markets will do tomorrow?

    There have been several developments over the weekend which will impact. Mostly the first death in the USA. but also clear signs of epidemic spread in France. Germany, Spain, possibly the UK.

    Nothing good has happened to help the markets.

    Shall we have a go at predicting, for fun? We gotta get some fun out of this.

    I reckon the DJ will have another seizure. 3-4% fall. Europe will be bad as well. Particularly France and Germany. Maybe a 5% drop.
    Europe also has the Greek situation to contend with.
    And the Syrian refugee issue. The strains that put on the border states and EU cohesiveness the last time was immense and there was not even a (legitimate) fear that they may be carrying this virus. Don't think that the Germans will be stepping up to the plate this time. Borders are going to have to close. Right now.
    Those places that constructed the fences are looking a bit smarter now.
    I fear it will get violent. Shooting at plague carriers will seem a lot more acceptable than it did the last time. We're going to see some seriously emotive headlines.
    Turkey needs to be put back into its box. The Ottoman Empire collapsed 200 years ago, and still they're marching into other countries with their size 12 hobnail boots.
    The Turks now control pretty much the migrant flows into Europe.....how do we put them into their box?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,484
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    DavidL said:

    Foss said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    This is an excellent, lucid, trenchant interview with Nouriel Roubini talking about the economic and political impact of the c-word.

    He reckons it's a global disaster, stocks will fall 30-40%, and Trump is doomed.

    Well worth a read. But it's not very cheering.

    https://www.spiegel.de/international/business/nouriel-roubini-on-coronavirus-this-crisis-will-spill-over-and-result-in-a-disaster-a-e811cf3b-d495-4c52-bf79-d872c8f164ac
    I find the economics persuasive. The politics a lot less so.
    What do you reckon the markets will do tomorrow?

    There have been several developments over the weekend which will impact. Mostly the first death in the USA. but also clear signs of epidemic spread in France. Germany, Spain, possibly the UK.

    Nothing good has happened to help the markets.

    Shall we have a go at predicting, for fun? We gotta get some fun out of this.

    I reckon the DJ will have another seizure. 3-4% fall. Europe will be bad as well. Particularly France and Germany. Maybe a 5% drop.
    Europe also has the Greek situation to contend with.
    And the Syrian refugee issue. The strains that put on the border states and EU cohesiveness the last time was immense and there was not even a (legitimate) fear that they may be carrying this virus. Don't think that the Germans will be stepping up to the plate this time. Borders are going to have to close. Right now.
    Those places that constructed the fences are looking a bit smarter now.
    I fear it will get violent. Shooting at plague carriers will seem a lot more acceptable than it did the last time. We're going to see some seriously emotive headlines.
    Turkey needs to be put back into its box. The Ottoman Empire collapsed 200 years ago, and still they're marching into other countries with their size 12 hobnail boots.
    1924 is not ‘200 years ago.’
    Yes, that was silly, out by over a century. :lol: I'll blame it on watching 'Sharpe' repeats recently. Still the point stands.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,864

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Interest rates being what they are, how on Earth do we deal with a recession?

    The tool kit is not completely empty. We can use QE, interest rates can go negative, the government is about to launch what might prove to be a very well timed fiscal boost in infrastructure spending, there is quite a lot we can do. How much effect it can have in the face of the hurricane is harder to judge but the disruption will be focused on production and tourism/entertainment. That does leave quite a lot of our economy.

    Personally I think a negative Q1 figure is now very likely. Disappointing after a reasonable start to the year.
    If the government had any sense, they would be looking to fast track every infrastructure plan in the pipeline and task people will identifying all the other worthwhile opportunities to get them going ASAP.

    It is what the Chinese do when they suffer a slow down.
    I certainly think that the budget will be more aggressive than originally planned and there will be complete indifference as to whether or not this breaches Treasury "rules". But its not going to be easy building roads and hospitals if a lot of your workforce is in quarantine or if you can't get the steel.
    You can be sure that Scunthorpe steelworks is now safe.
    I seriously hope someone is working on how we replace the kind of steel we have been importing from China. My understanding is our domestic production tends to be high end, more sophisticated stuff not what you build buildings or flyovers with. It's just one example of how the whole globalisation agenda is going to take several steps back, at least for now.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    Reading all this I'm getting to think of a.presumed cold I had last month or so.. Fever, dry cough. shortness of breath. As bad a cold as I can recall in terms of ttiredness.. My partner was really debilitated for a fortnight.
    How would I know if I have had it? I'm in reasonable shape for.my age and not in the at risk group.
This discussion has been closed.