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  • Boris Johnson once again casually betraying those who relied on his word:

    https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1206825958797463552

    Like, duh.
    Anyone who believes a word that comes out of Johnson's mouth needs their head examined.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    edited December 2019

    Jonathan said:

    Oxford should pay the nation reparations for the dud politicians, Cambridge should pay equal reparations for Footlights.

    I think Oxford has been pretty successful, a few mistakes(, Atlee Blair and Wilson), otherwise its been pretty good.
    Chuckle, it’s the way to tell them. The nation gratefully toasts the success of Cameron, May, Heath and Eden! A complete shower.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Here’s a question you might get decent odds on. What chance the House of Lords doesn’t survive this Parliament?
  • Boris Johnson once again casually betraying those who relied on his word:

    https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1206825958797463552

    Like, duh.
    Anyone who believes a word that comes out of Johnson's mouth needs their head examined.
    Indeed. IndyRef2 here we come.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191

    nichomar said:

    IanB2 said:

    This story about Johnson and Cummings outlawing an extension next year is extremely significant.

    It may mean that this new pragmatic face people were hoping from them next year on the negotiations may not materialise.

    Of course it won't. They want Brexit "done" quickly, the last thing they want is the negotiations still going on when the next election is called, even if that would be best for the economy. They will attempt a quick and limited deal on their terms, and if the EU won't accept their terms then it's "WTO" Brexit at year-end, with a hope that the economy can recover from the inevitable crash by 2024. People assume that because Cummings is smart he will also be pragmatic, which I think is a mistake. Strap in!
    The markets are clearly going through the same thought process; having risen to $1.35 after the exit poll, the £ has quickly sunk back to about $1.325
    Since Thursday night I wanted, no prayed, that this time our new PM would deliver his one nation approach, demonstrate pragmatism and use his majority for the national good not the Tory good. He appears to be falling at the first fence I was willing to give him six months before judging progress but it’s not looking good.
    I'm sure he can live without your support.
    I'm sure Nichomar can live without you caring whether Nichomar supports... if it's Making Pointless Snarky Comments Day today
  • Chris said:

    This story about Johnson and Cummings outlawing an extension next year is extremely significant.

    It may mean that this new pragmatic face people were hoping from them next year on the negotiations may not materialise.

    It's also a repetition of Johnson's utterly crass do or die/die in a ditch blunder, but this time in circumstances where there is absolutely nothing to force an error.

    Sheer, bone-headed stupidity.
    On the previous thread, @Cyclefree suggested this runs contrary to an assurance given by the Lord Chancellor.
  • nichomar said:

    IanB2 said:

    This story about Johnson and Cummings outlawing an extension next year is extremely significant.

    It may mean that this new pragmatic face people were hoping from them next year on the negotiations may not materialise.

    Of course it won't. They want Brexit "done" quickly, the last thing they want is the negotiations still going on when the next election is called, even if that would be best for the economy. They will attempt a quick and limited deal on their terms, and if the EU won't accept their terms then it's "WTO" Brexit at year-end, with a hope that the economy can recover from the inevitable crash by 2024. People assume that because Cummings is smart he will also be pragmatic, which I think is a mistake. Strap in!
    The markets are clearly going through the same thought process; having risen to $1.35 after the exit poll, the £ has quickly sunk back to about $1.325
    Since Thursday night I wanted, no prayed, that this time our new PM would deliver his one nation approach, demonstrate pragmatism and use his majority for the national good not the Tory good. He appears to be falling at the first fence I was willing to give him six months before judging progress but it’s not looking good.
    I'm sure he can live without your support.
    Is it just me, or are the people on here whose side won the election in a worse mood than those who lost? Come on PB Tories, you now have everything you ever dreamed of - an opportunity to deliver the kind of Brexit you know will be a great success for the whole UK, a big Tory majority to reshape the country every way you want, and a strong leader who has united the party and won over erstwhile Labour supporters with promises that he can surely deliver. Why so grumpy?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    This is the world of oversimplified populist strong man politics. It rarely ends well, but Tory party sold and the nation bought it. So here we are.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    nichomar said:

    IanB2 said:

    This story about Johnson and Cummings outlawing an extension next year is extremely significant.

    It may mean that this new pragmatic face people were hoping from them next year on the negotiations may not materialise.

    Of course it won't. They want Brexit "done" quickly, the last thing they want is the negotiations still going on when the next election is called, even if that would be best for the economy. They will attempt a quick and limited deal on their terms, and if the EU won't accept their terms then it's "WTO" Brexit at year-end, with a hope that the economy can recover from the inevitable crash by 2024. People assume that because Cummings is smart he will also be pragmatic, which I think is a mistake. Strap in!
    The markets are clearly going through the same thought process; having risen to $1.35 after the exit poll, the £ has quickly sunk back to about $1.325
    Since Thursday night I wanted, no prayed, that this time our new PM would deliver his one nation approach, demonstrate pragmatism and use his majority for the national good not the Tory good. He appears to be falling at the first fence I was willing to give him six months before judging progress but it’s not looking good.
    I'm sure he can live without your support.
    Is it just me, or are the people on here whose side won the election in a worse mood than those who lost? Come on PB Tories, you now have everything you ever dreamed of - an opportunity to deliver the kind of Brexit you know will be a great success for the whole UK, a big Tory majority to reshape the country every way you want, and a strong leader who has united the party and won over erstwhile Labour supporters with promises that he can surely deliver. Why so grumpy?
    They never thought beyond December 12.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    This story about Johnson and Cummings outlawing an extension next year is extremely significant.

    It may mean that this new pragmatic face people were hoping from them next year on the negotiations may not materialise.

    Nah it’s just signalling.

    Easy enough to amend the law later albeit embarrassing
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,019

    alex_ said:

    This story about Johnson and Cummings outlawing an extension next year is extremely significant.

    This new pragmatic face people were hoping for from them on Brexit next year may not be there.

    The absolute stupidity comes not from the debates about whether a deal can be negotiated in the tiny time frame. It comes from the fact that even then it can be torpedoed during the subsequent legislative process by any number of EU countries/regional parliaments for whom a trade deal with the U.K. will have zero significance whatsoever. Especially if it has no freedom of movement provisions which is the only relevant thing for many country’s relationship with the UK.

    That, TBH, is quite a thought. Means of course that when Boris/Cummings say they are 'outlawing an extension', all they can actually mean is that by 31/12/20 they will have reached a deal with the Commission on which both agree. If Wallonia or Lithuania isn't happy we still have to sit tight and wait. I assume that our Government would arrange trade deals to be activated immediately Wallonia etc get round to agreeing.
    If Germany and France agree, the little countries will get into line. That's what being in the EU means. Which is why I'm glad we're leaving.
    You have been shown time and again to know fuck all about it.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    Charles said:

    This story about Johnson and Cummings outlawing an extension next year is extremely significant.

    It may mean that this new pragmatic face people were hoping from them next year on the negotiations may not materialise.

    Nah it’s just signalling.

    Easy enough to amend the law later albeit embarrassing
    Either you’re wrong or it’s not very powerful signallIng. More likely that No10 believes its own spin.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191
    Off-topic:
    The 2 latest national US general election have Trump beating all the Dem candidates, except Biden who Trump is 3 ahead of in one poll, and 5 behind in another. Trump's also doing well in recent polling in states like Wisconsin, and his approval ratings are up.

    Not sure why this is - maybe the impeachment stuff is helping him, maybe the more people see of the actual Dem candidates on offer the less they like them?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    Charles said:

    This story about Johnson and Cummings outlawing an extension next year is extremely significant.

    It may mean that this new pragmatic face people were hoping from them next year on the negotiations may not materialise.

    Nah it’s just signalling.

    Easy enough to amend the law later albeit embarrassing
    But what exactly is it signalling?

    Everything has to be done by December 31st 2020 anyway as otherwise we need to talk about transitional payments as well as ongoing payments.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited December 2019
    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    This story about Johnson and Cummings outlawing an extension next year is extremely significant.

    It may mean that this new pragmatic face people were hoping from them next year on the negotiations may not materialise.

    Nah it’s just signalling.

    Easy enough to amend the law later albeit embarrassing
    Either you’re wrong or it’s not very powerful signallIng. More likely that No10 believes its own spin.
    Probably they’re trying to prevent any suggestion that the opposition might not oppose the bill.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    Boris Johnson once again casually betraying those who relied on his word:

    https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1206825958797463552

    Like, duh.
    Anyone who believes a word that comes out of Johnson's mouth needs their head examined.
    I think if he said "I'm a moron" I'd believe it.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    nichomar said:

    IanB2 said:

    This story about Johnson and Cummings outlawing an extension next year is extremely significant.

    It may mean that this new pragmatic face people were hoping from them next year on the negotiations may not materialise.

    Of course it won't. They want Brexit "done" quickly, the last thing they want is the negotiations still going on when the next election is called, even if that would be best for the economy. They will attempt a quick and limited deal on their terms, and if the EU won't accept their terms then it's "WTO" Brexit at year-end, with a hope that the economy can recover from the inevitable crash by 2024. People assume that because Cummings is smart he will also be pragmatic, which I think is a mistake. Strap in!
    The markets are clearly going through the same thought process; having risen to $1.35 after the exit poll, the £ has quickly sunk back to about $1.325
    Since Thursday night I wanted, no prayed, that this time our new PM would deliver his one nation approach, demonstrate pragmatism and use his majority for the national good not the Tory good. He appears to be falling at the first fence I was willing to give him six months before judging progress but it’s not looking good.
    I'm sure he can live without your support.
    Is it just me, or are the people on here whose side won the election in a worse mood than those who lost? Come on PB Tories, you now have everything you ever dreamed of - an opportunity to deliver the kind of Brexit you know will be a great success for the whole UK, a big Tory majority to reshape the country every way you want, and a strong leader who has united the party and won over erstwhile Labour supporters with promises that he can surely deliver. Why so grumpy?
    I'm not - just depressing that the great whinge goes on and on and on. Ted Heath would be proud of some of you.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    kamski said:

    Off-topic:
    The 2 latest national US general election have Trump beating all the Dem candidates, except Biden who Trump is 3 ahead of in one poll, and 5 behind in another. Trump's also doing well in recent polling in states like Wisconsin, and his approval ratings are up.

    Not sure why this is - maybe the impeachment stuff is helping him, maybe the more people see of the actual Dem candidates on offer the less they like them?

    The impeachment actions are actually boosting Trump not the Democrats much as they boosted Cliinton not the Republicans
  • kamski said:

    This story about Johnson and Cummings outlawing an extension next year is extremely significant.

    It may mean that this new pragmatic face people were hoping from them next year on the negotiations may not materialise.

    There was never going to be a pivot to the centre. The coalition that Boris Johnson has constructed is based around Farageism. Look out for a government set to be dominated by social and economic illiberalism (with the EU to be continually blamed for everything that doesn’t go right) and a profound intolerance of pluralism, with a decent chance of good old-fashioned venality. Not so much Singapore-on-Thames as Budapest-on-Thames.

    Politically it will no doubt be very successful. It’s worked in Hungary and Poland and it will work here.
    Depressingly, I fear this is true. Remember all those saying that Trump once elected would "pivot"? Johnson himself was saying Trump is really just a typical New York liberal (which brought to mind Zaphod Beeblebrox's brain-care specialist saying "Zaphod's just this guy, you know")
    Johnson is probably going to be the same as Trump and/or Beeblebrox.
    A two headed BJ? At least the one thing we can be sure that both heads will be working towards the greater benefit of Boris.
  • Charles said:

    This story about Johnson and Cummings outlawing an extension next year is extremely significant.

    It may mean that this new pragmatic face people were hoping from them next year on the negotiations may not materialise.

    Nah it’s just signalling.

    Easy enough to amend the law later albeit embarrassing
    I doubt it. Smart politicians get their disappointments and compromises over early. Cummings is nothing if not a smart politician. They have no intention of extending the deadline, and so from a negotiating POV it makes sense to make it a hard constraint. In a game of chicken if you genuinely will not swerve you might as well tie yourself to the steering wheel so the other side knows it.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Chris said:

    Boris Johnson once again casually betraying those who relied on his word:

    https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1206825958797463552

    Like, duh.
    Anyone who believes a word that comes out of Johnson's mouth needs their head examined.
    I think if he said "I'm a moron" I'd believe it.
    What if he said “I always lie and am lying now”? #paradox

  • Charles said:

    This story about Johnson and Cummings outlawing an extension next year is extremely significant.

    It may mean that this new pragmatic face people were hoping from them next year on the negotiations may not materialise.

    Nah it’s just signalling.

    Easy enough to amend the law later albeit embarrassing
    Lots of pearl clutching because Boris is promising to do exactly what he’s said he’d do in the election campaign!

    If one of the EU countries decides to play silly buggers the EU could ask for the extension which I’m sure could be fixed by a simple bill.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    Off-topic:
    The 2 latest national US general election have Trump beating all the Dem candidates, except Biden who Trump is 3 ahead of in one poll, and 5 behind in another. Trump's also doing well in recent polling in states like Wisconsin, and his approval ratings are up.

    Not sure why this is - maybe the impeachment stuff is helping him, maybe the more people see of the actual Dem candidates on offer the less they like them?

    The impeachment actions are actually boosting Trump not the Democrats much as they boosted Cliinton not the Republicans
    If you are going to impeach someone you really need a very simple story.

    Breaking into an office to steal evidence is a simple story - the Democrats don't have that yet and should have waited.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited December 2019
    felix said:

    nichomar said:

    IanB2 said:

    This story about Johnson and Cummings outlawing an extension next year is extremely significant.

    It may mean that this new pragmatic face people were hoping from them next year on the negotiations may not materialise.

    Of course it won't. They want Brexit "done" quickly, the last thing they want is the negotiations still going on when the next election is called, even if that would be best for the economy. They will attempt a quick and limited deal on their terms, and if the EU won't accept their terms then it's "WTO" Brexit at year-end, with a hope that the economy can recover from the inevitable crash by 2024. People assume that because Cummings is smart he will also be pragmatic, which I think is a mistake. Strap in!
    The markets are clearly going through the same thought process; having risen to $1.35 after the exit poll, the £ has quickly sunk back to about $1.325
    Since Thursday night I wanted, no prayed, that this time our new PM would deliver his one nation approach, demonstrate pragmatism and use his majority for the national good not the Tory good. He appears to be falling at the first fence I was willing to give him six months before judging progress but it’s not looking good.
    I'm sure he can live without your support.
    Is it just me, or are the people on here whose side won the election in a worse mood than those who lost? Come on PB Tories, you now have everything you ever dreamed of - an opportunity to deliver the kind of Brexit you know will be a great success for the whole UK, a big Tory majority to reshape the country every way you want, and a strong leader who has united the party and won over erstwhile Labour supporters with promises that he can surely deliver. Why so grumpy?
    I'm not - just depressing that the great whinge goes on and on and on. Ted Heath would be proud of some of you.
    Brexit Derangement Syndrome has been replaced by
    Boris Derangement Syndrome. Which is the single variable?
  • felix said:

    nichomar said:

    IanB2 said:

    This story about Johnson and Cummings outlawing an extension next year is extremely significant.

    It may mean that this new pragmatic face people were hoping from them next year on the negotiations may not materialise.

    Of course it won't. They want Brexit "done" quickly, the last thing they want is the negotiations still going on when the next election is called, even if that would be best for the economy. They will attempt a quick and limited deal on their terms, and if the EU won't accept their terms then it's "WTO" Brexit at year-end, with a hope that the economy can recover from the inevitable crash by 2024. People assume that because Cummings is smart he will also be pragmatic, which I think is a mistake. Strap in!
    The markets are clearly going through the same thought process; having risen to $1.35 after the exit poll, the £ has quickly sunk back to about $1.325
    Since Thursday night I wanted, no prayed, that this time our new PM would deliver his one nation approach, demonstrate pragmatism and use his majority for the national good not the Tory good. He appears to be falling at the first fence I was willing to give him six months before judging progress but it’s not looking good.
    I'm sure he can live without your support.
    Is it just me, or are the people on here whose side won the election in a worse mood than those who lost? Come on PB Tories, you now have everything you ever dreamed of - an opportunity to deliver the kind of Brexit you know will be a great success for the whole UK, a big Tory majority to reshape the country every way you want, and a strong leader who has united the party and won over erstwhile Labour supporters with promises that he can surely deliver. Why so grumpy?
    I'm not - just depressing that the great whinge goes on and on and on. Ted Heath would be proud of some of you.
    Who's whinging? You have won the political argument on Brexit, well done. I still think you're wrong, and I won't hesitate to say so as the evidence accumulates. Enjoy!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    edited December 2019
    No surprise that the PM and winning general election candidate tends to have been educated at the best university in the country either, Oxford, with Baldwin having gone to the best other university, Cambridge.

    Boris is also the 19th PM educated at our the most renowned school, Cambridge
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,560
    Sorry if this has been pointed out before but if the answer to the Labour conundrum requires: woman, electable, northern seat and Oxford then step forward Yvette Cooper. Destiny calls.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,002
    edited December 2019
    felix said:

    nichomar said:

    IanB2 said:

    This story about Johnson and Cummings outlawing an extension next year is extremely significant.

    It may mean that this new pragmatic face people were hoping from them next year on the negotiations may not materialise.

    Of course it won't. They want Brexit "done" quickly, the last thing they want is the negotiations still going on when the next election is called, even if that would be best for the economy. They will attempt a quick and limited deal on their terms, and if the EU won't accept their terms then it's "WTO" Brexit at year-end, with a hope that the economy can recover from the inevitable crash by 2024. People assume that because Cummings is smart he will also be pragmatic, which I think is a mistake. Strap in!
    The markets are clearly going through the same thought process; having risen to $1.35 after the exit poll, the £ has quickly sunk back to about $1.325
    Since Thursday night I wanted, no prayed, that this time our new PM would deliver his one nation approach, demonstrate pragmatism and use his majority for the national good not the Tory good. He appears to be falling at the first fence I was willing to give him six months before judging progress but it’s not looking good.
    I'm sure he can live without your support.
    Is it just me, or are the people on here whose side won the election in a worse mood than those who lost? Come on PB Tories, you now have everything you ever dreamed of - an opportunity to deliver the kind of Brexit you know will be a great success for the whole UK, a big Tory majority to reshape the country every way you want, and a strong leader who has united the party and won over erstwhile Labour supporters with promises that he can surely deliver. Why so grumpy?
    I'm not - just depressing that the great whinge goes on and on and on. Ted Heath would be proud of some of you.
    On and on? Jeez, it's only 5 days in, I think a bit of moaning is entirely to be expected. Of course if PB Tories want to unilaterally choose to accept a statute of limitations on whinging about past slights and setbacks I'm sure that would cheer everyone up.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149

    nichomar said:

    IanB2 said:

    This story about Johnson and Cummings outlawing an extension next year is extremely significant.

    It may mean that this new pragmatic face people were hoping from them next year on the negotiations may not materialise.

    Of course it won't. They want Brexit "done" quickly, the last thing they want is the negotiations still going on when the next election is called, even if that would be best for the economy. They will attempt a quick and limited deal on their terms, and if the EU won't accept their terms then it's "WTO" Brexit at year-end, with a hope that the economy can recover from the inevitable crash by 2024. People assume that because Cummings is smart he will also be pragmatic, which I think is a mistake. Strap in!
    The markets are clearly going through the same thought process; having risen to $1.35 after the exit poll, the £ has quickly sunk back to about $1.325
    Since Thursday night I wanted, no prayed, that this time our new PM would deliver his one nation approach, demonstrate pragmatism and use his majority for the national good not the Tory good. He appears to be falling at the first fence I was willing to give him six months before judging progress but it’s not looking good.
    I'm sure he can live without your support.
    Is it just me, or are the people on here whose side won the election in a worse mood than those who lost? Come on PB Tories, you now have everything you ever dreamed of - an opportunity to deliver the kind of Brexit you know will be a great success for the whole UK, a big Tory majority to reshape the country every way you want, and a strong leader who has united the party and won over erstwhile Labour supporters with promises that he can surely deliver. Why so grumpy?
    I am not grumpy at all, Boris has won the historic 4th Tory term I long predicted despite the doubts of most on here
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited December 2019
    ..
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    algarkirk said:

    Sorry if this has been pointed out before but if the answer to the Labour conundrum requires: woman, electable, northern seat and Oxford then step forward Yvette Cooper. Destiny calls.

    Cooper has just got a 13% swing against her in her seat.

    Starmer is the other potential Labour leadership contender to have gone to Oxford, albeit at Masters level after a BA at Leeds
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,236
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Mike appears to be arguing that Oxford pay reparations.

    Always rather sad that Oxford/Cambridge alumni seem to get stuck, never quite progressing from where they went to college. Always mentioning it as if it should matter.

    Well it only matters inasmuch as those who did not go there seem rather jealous (inwardly if not outwardly) of those who did.
    Well, it is a bit annoying to have to work for a degree when at Oxford you can buy it for four guineas.
    Perhaps your old university should use market forces and undercut Oxford,
    Are you suggesting they should go for £2.50 for an MA?
    TBF, Oxford now has the MSt program, which is definitely not free... as this parent knows.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149

    Boris Johnson once again casually betraying those who relied on his word:

    https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1206825958797463552

    Like, duh.
    Anyone who believes a word that comes out of Johnson's mouth needs their head examined.
    Indeed. IndyRef2 here we come.
    The Commons needs to approve indyref2 not Boris and there is a Tory majority of 80 in the Commons on a manifesto commitment to no indyref2 during its term
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    IanB2 said:

    This story about Johnson and Cummings outlawing an extension next year is extremely significant.

    It may mean that this new pragmatic face people were hoping from them next year on the negotiations may not materialise.

    Of course it won't. They want Brexit "done" quickly, the last thing they want is the negotiations still going on when the next election is called, even if that would be best for the economy. They will attempt a quick and limited deal on their terms, and if the EU won't accept their terms then it's "WTO" Brexit at year-end, with a hope that the economy can recover from the inevitable crash by 2024. People assume that because Cummings is smart he will also be pragmatic, which I think is a mistake. Strap in!
    The markets are clearly going through the same thought process; having risen to $1.35 after the exit poll, the £ has quickly sunk back to about $1.325
    Since Thursday night I wanted, no prayed, that this time our new PM would deliver his one nation approach, demonstrate pragmatism and use his majority for the national good not the Tory good. He appears to be falling at the first fence I was willing to give him six months before judging progress but it’s not looking good.
    I'm sure he can live without your support.
    Is it just me, or are the people on here whose side won the election in a worse mood than those who lost? Come on PB Tories, you now have everything you ever dreamed of - an opportunity to deliver the kind of Brexit you know will be a great success for the whole UK, a big Tory majority to reshape the country every way you want, and a strong leader who has united the party and won over erstwhile Labour supporters with promises that he can surely deliver. Why so grumpy?
    I am not grumpy at all, Boris has won the historic 4th Tory term I long predicted despite the doubts of most on here
    Note some of thought Boris would win and a 1983 result beckoned, but questioned whether that was a good idea.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,560
    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    IanB2 said:

    This story about Johnson and Cummings outlawing an extension next year is extremely significant.

    It may mean that this new pragmatic face people were hoping from them next year on the negotiations may not materialise.

    Of course it won't. They want Brexit "done" quickly, the last thing they want is the negotiations still going on when the next election is called, even if that would be best for the economy. They will attempt a quick and limited deal on their terms, and if the EU won't accept their terms then it's "WTO" Brexit at year-end, with a hope that the economy can recover from the inevitable crash by 2024. People assume that because Cummings is smart he will also be pragmatic, which I think is a mistake. Strap in!
    The markets are clearly going through the same thought process; having risen to $1.35 after the exit poll, the £ has quickly sunk back to about $1.325
    Since Thursday night I wanted, no prayed, that this time our new PM would deliver his one nation approach, demonstrate pragmatism and use his majority for the national good not the Tory good. He appears to be falling at the first fence I was willing to give him six months before judging progress but it’s not looking good.
    I'm sure he can live without your support.
    Is it just me, or are the people on here whose side won the election in a worse mood than those who lost? Come on PB Tories, you now have everything you ever dreamed of - an opportunity to deliver the kind of Brexit you know will be a great success for the whole UK, a big Tory majority to reshape the country every way you want, and a strong leader who has united the party and won over erstwhile Labour supporters with promises that he can surely deliver. Why so grumpy?
    I am not grumpy at all, Boris has won the historic 4th Tory term I long predicted despite the doubts of most on here
    I don't find Tories grumpy. Relieved that the logjam is cleared but also excited and apprehensive at undertaking a truly difficult and momentous political task, the trickiest since the post-war period; and very excited at realising that the Tory party is the most realistic option for northern working people.

  • Good morning

    This conservative is not grumpy and delighted the ordinary people rose up against the elite and those wanting to stop the democratic vote to leave, even though I voted remain

    And judging by the posts this morning, so many are still fighting the lost battle to remain or are actively hoping the country fails

    I am made of sterner stuff and see a promising future and am not the least negative

    Have a good day folks

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    edited December 2019

    I don't think the second degree counts so Kier Starmer is out. So it's Angela Rayner?

    Of course second degrees count, Bill Clinton went to Georgetown for undergraduate only Yale as a postgraduate but is still considered a Yale graduate.

    Obama went to Occidental college as an undergraduate only Harvard as a postgraduate but is still considered a Harvard graduate.

    Gerald Ford went to Michigan as an undergraduate only Harvard as a postgraduate but is still considered a Harvard graduate.

    Rayner went to no university at all
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,560
    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sorry if this has been pointed out before but if the answer to the Labour conundrum requires: woman, electable, northern seat and Oxford then step forward Yvette Cooper. Destiny calls.

    Cooper has just got a 13% swing against her in her seat.

    Starmer is the other potential Labour leadership contender to have gone to Oxford, albeit at Masters level after a BA at Leeds
    Male, southern, and unelectable IMHO.

  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Rachel Reeves?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    Good morning

    This conservative is not grumpy and delighted the ordinary people rose up against the elite and those wanting to stop the democratic vote to leave, even though I voted remain

    And judging by the posts this morning, so many are still fighting the lost battle to remain or are actively hoping the country fails

    I am made of sterner stuff and see a promising future and am not the least negative

    Have a good day folks

    We were but pawns in the battle of one elite against another. Do not try to argue that Boris, Mogg and co are not an elite.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Good morning

    This conservative is not grumpy and delighted the ordinary people rose up against the elite and those wanting to stop the democratic vote to leave, even though I voted remain

    And judging by the posts this morning, so many are still fighting the lost battle to remain or are actively hoping the country fails

    I am made of sterner stuff and see a promising future and am not the least negative

    Have a good day folks

    There was a time when you quit the Tory Party over a threat to leave the EU without a trade deal in place. Has your son got a new job?

  • Jonathan said:

    Good morning

    This conservative is not grumpy and delighted the ordinary people rose up against the elite and those wanting to stop the democratic vote to leave, even though I voted remain

    And judging by the posts this morning, so many are still fighting the lost battle to remain or are actively hoping the country fails

    I am made of sterner stuff and see a promising future and am not the least negative

    Have a good day folks

    We were but pawns in the battle of one elite against another. Do not try to argue that Boris, Mogg and co are not an elite.
    Boris seems to have acquired a new fan base of millions of ordinary voters
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sorry if this has been pointed out before but if the answer to the Labour conundrum requires: woman, electable, northern seat and Oxford then step forward Yvette Cooper. Destiny calls.

    Cooper has just got a 13% swing against her in her seat.

    Starmer is the other potential Labour leadership contender to have gone to Oxford, albeit at Masters level after a BA at Leeds
    Male, southern, and unelectable IMHO.

    He is more centrist and electable than the rest of them
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    This story about Johnson and Cummings outlawing an extension next year is extremely significant.

    It may mean that this new pragmatic face people were hoping from them next year on the negotiations may not materialise.

    Of course it won't. They want Brexit "done" quickly, the last thing they want is the negotiations still going on when the next election is called, even if that would be best for the economy. They will attempt a quick and limited deal on their terms, and if the EU won't accept their terms then it's "WTO" Brexit at year-end, with a hope that the economy can recover from the inevitable crash by 2024. People assume that because Cummings is smart he will also be pragmatic, which I think is a mistake. Strap in!

    To be fair, they made their no extension strategy absolutely clear during the election campaign. A lot of people on here and elsewhere thought that they were just saying this. It was always pretty clear they meant it. The interesting bit will be how they manage the fall-out from taking this route. Deliberately harming the economy when you are promising big increases in public spending and no tax rises either means breaking those promises or going on a large-scale borrowing spree.

    Yep, people voted for a deal done quickly, which can only mean either No Deal, Minimum Deal or Bad Deal. The latter is most likely. BoZo's Deal shows that it is fairly easy to draft a Bad Deal fairly quickly. In that Deal NI got shafted, but this time the shafting will be on the mainland.

    Glad that I have a secure job and pension. A noticeable spike in headhunters emails over the last weeks.
    To take you to which country? US? Aus?
    New Zealand.

    I worked there before. Nice country and Prime Minister.
    Great landscapes but culturally very boring. Woeful pubs - and towns and cities are almost universally without charm. An oddly overrated place.
  • Jonathan said:

    Good morning

    This conservative is not grumpy and delighted the ordinary people rose up against the elite and those wanting to stop the democratic vote to leave, even though I voted remain

    And judging by the posts this morning, so many are still fighting the lost battle to remain or are actively hoping the country fails

    I am made of sterner stuff and see a promising future and am not the least negative

    Have a good day folks

    We were but pawns in the battle of one elite against another. Do not try to argue that Boris, Mogg and co are not an elite.
    Boris seems to have acquired a new fan base of millions of ordinary voters
    Much like Trump. He still represents the elite, though.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    IanB2 said:

    This story about Johnson and Cummings outlawing an extension next year is extremely significant.

    It may mean that this new pragmatic face people were hoping from them next year on the negotiations may not materialise.

    Of course it won't. They want Brexit "done" quickly, the last thing they want is the negotiations still going on when the next election is called, even if that would be best for the economy. They will attempt a quick and limited deal on their terms, and if the EU won't accept their terms then it's "WTO" Brexit at year-end, with a hope that the economy can recover from the inevitable crash by 2024. People assume that because Cummings is smart he will also be pragmatic, which I think is a mistake. Strap in!
    The markets are clearly going through the same thought process; having risen to $1.35 after the exit poll, the £ has quickly sunk back to about $1.325
    Since Thursday night I wanted, no prayed, that this time our new PM would deliver his one nation approach, demonstrate pragmatism and use his majority for the national good not the Tory good. He appears to be falling at the first fence I was willing to give him six months before judging progress but it’s not looking good.
    I'm sure he can live without your support.
    Is it just me, or are the people on here whose side won the election in a worse mood than those who lost? Come on PB Tories, you now have everything you ever dreamed of - an opportunity to deliver the kind of Brexit you know will be a great success for the whole UK, a big Tory majority to reshape the country every way you want, and a strong leader who has united the party and won over erstwhile Labour supporters with promises that he can surely deliver. Why so grumpy?
    I am not grumpy at all, Boris has won the historic 4th Tory term I long predicted despite the doubts of most on here
    Note some of thought Boris would win and a 1983 result beckoned, but questioned whether that was a good idea.
    In which case they are not really Tory supporters
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    HYUFD said:

    I don't think the second degree counts so Kier Starmer is out. So it's Angela Rayner?

    Of course second degrees count, Bill Clinton went to Georgetown for undergraduate only Yale as a postgraduate but is still considered a Yale graduate.

    Obama went to Occidental college as an undergraduate only Harvard as a postgraduate but is still considered a Harvard graduate.

    Gerald Ford went to Michigan as an undergraduate only Harvard as a postgraduate but is still considered a Harvard graduate.

    Rayner went to no university at all
    I live the way that you get to determine what “counts”? As if somehow it means much anyway! The only person who gets to define that is the person who wrote the thread in the first place!
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191

    Jonathan said:

    Good morning

    This conservative is not grumpy and delighted the ordinary people rose up against the elite and those wanting to stop the democratic vote to leave, even though I voted remain

    And judging by the posts this morning, so many are still fighting the lost battle to remain or are actively hoping the country fails

    I am made of sterner stuff and see a promising future and am not the least negative

    Have a good day folks

    We were but pawns in the battle of one elite against another. Do not try to argue that Boris, Mogg and co are not an elite.
    Boris seems to have acquired a new fan base of millions of ordinary voters
    oh it's back to the "ordinary" voters is it? as opposed to those dodgy ones who voted against him.
    if you think Johnson isn't part of the elite you are truly delusional
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    Corbyn proved that any old fool can lead the Labour Party. That’s easy. The tricky bit is leading it to victory and becoming PM. There are a couple of oven ready candidates; Cooper and Starmer. The challenge is to identify some who will grow into the role over five years.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,386

    Good morning

    This conservative is not grumpy and delighted the ordinary people rose up against the elite and those wanting to stop the democratic vote to leave, even though I voted remain

    And judging by the posts this morning, so many are still fighting the lost battle to remain or are actively hoping the country fails

    I am made of sterner stuff and see a promising future and am not the least negative

    Have a good day folks

    Not me BigG. I know the game is over. That doesn't mean I have to agree that Johnson's narcissism and moral bankruptcy is acceptable to me.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    Jonathan said:

    Good morning

    This conservative is not grumpy and delighted the ordinary people rose up against the elite and those wanting to stop the democratic vote to leave, even though I voted remain

    And judging by the posts this morning, so many are still fighting the lost battle to remain or are actively hoping the country fails

    I am made of sterner stuff and see a promising future and am not the least negative

    Have a good day folks

    We were but pawns in the battle of one elite against another. Do not try to argue that Boris, Mogg and co are not an elite.
    Boris seems to have acquired a new fan base of millions of ordinary voters
    And yet remains the epitome of the elite British establishment.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Alistair said:

    @Pulpstar did you ever work out what to do, here is my book


    Jealous!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,386
    Jonathan said:

    Good morning

    This conservative is not grumpy and delighted the ordinary people rose up against the elite and those wanting to stop the democratic vote to leave, even though I voted remain

    And judging by the posts this morning, so many are still fighting the lost battle to remain or are actively hoping the country fails

    I am made of sterner stuff and see a promising future and am not the least negative

    Have a good day folks

    We were but pawns in the battle of one elite against another. Do not try to argue that Boris, Mogg and co are not an elite.
    Grafters one and all! Did you not see Boris delivering milk and driving a JCB?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Jonathan said:

    Good morning

    This conservative is not grumpy and delighted the ordinary people rose up against the elite and those wanting to stop the democratic vote to leave, even though I voted remain

    And judging by the posts this morning, so many are still fighting the lost battle to remain or are actively hoping the country fails

    I am made of sterner stuff and see a promising future and am not the least negative

    Have a good day folks

    We were but pawns in the battle of one elite against another. Do not try to argue that Boris, Mogg and co are not an elite.
    I’m afraid once you swallow the Johnson pill there is no was back, he can do no wrong the largest opponents of WTO exit from the EU from within the Tory ranks will all be supporting it because that’s somehow now the will of the people.
  • alex_ said:

    Good morning

    This conservative is not grumpy and delighted the ordinary people rose up against the elite and those wanting to stop the democratic vote to leave, even though I voted remain

    And judging by the posts this morning, so many are still fighting the lost battle to remain or are actively hoping the country fails

    I am made of sterner stuff and see a promising future and am not the least negative

    Have a good day folks

    There was a time when you quit the Tory Party over a threat to leave the EU without a trade deal in place. Has your son got a new job?

    Airbus has committed to the UK no matter what happens to the negotiations and if you check all the constituencies around the Airbus North Wales factory turned blue apart from Alyn and Deeside which was held by labour with a 213 majority

    It is time for everyone to accept Brexit is happening or just be in a permanent state of depression
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    nichomar said:

    IanB2 said:

    This story about Johnson and Cummings outlawing an extension next year is extremely significant.

    It may mean that this new pragmatic face people were hoping from them next year on the negotiations may not materialise.

    Of course it won't. They want Brexit "done" quickly, the last thing they want is the negotiations still going on when the next election is called, even if that would be best for the economy. They will attempt a quick and limited deal on their terms, and if the EU won't accept their terms then it's "WTO" Brexit at year-end, with a hope that the economy can recover from the inevitable crash by 2024. People assume that because Cummings is smart he will also be pragmatic, which I think is a mistake. Strap in!
    The markets are clearly going through the same thought process; having risen to $1.35 after the exit poll, the £ has quickly sunk back to about $1.325
    Since Thursday night I wanted, no prayed, that this time our new PM would deliver his one nation approach, demonstrate pragmatism and use his majority for the national good not the Tory good. He appears to be falling at the first fence I was willing to give him six months before judging progress but it’s not looking good.
    I'm sure he can live without your support.
    Is it just me, or are the people on here whose side won the election in a worse mood than those who lost? Come on PB Tories, you now have everything you ever dreamed of - an opportunity to deliver the kind of Brexit you know will be a great success for the whole UK, a big Tory majority to reshape the country every way you want, and a strong leader who has united the party and won over erstwhile Labour supporters with promises that he can surely deliver. Why so grumpy?
    It's just you. The people who lost are following the predictable path of forecasting doom because the public didn't agree with them.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    edited December 2019
    alex_ said:

    HYUFD said:

    I don't think the second degree counts so Kier Starmer is out. So it's Angela Rayner?

    Of course second degrees count, Bill Clinton went to Georgetown for undergraduate only Yale as a postgraduate but is still considered a Yale graduate.

    Obama went to Occidental college as an undergraduate only Harvard as a postgraduate but is still considered a Harvard graduate.

    Gerald Ford went to Michigan as an undergraduate only Harvard as a postgraduate but is still considered a Harvard graduate.

    Rayner went to no university at all
    I live the way that you get to determine what “counts”? As if somehow it means much anyway! The only person who gets to define that is the person who wrote the thread in the first place!
    OGH defined it as MPs who won an election with an alma mater at Oxford.

    Starmer's alma mater was Oxford, even if for a second degree not a first.

    In fact if Cooper does not stand Starmer will be the only Labour leadership contender with an Oxford degree, Long-Bailey went to Manchester Met, Nandy went to Newcastle and Birkbeck, Clive Lewis went to Bradford and Sandhurst, Jess Phillips went to Leeds and Birmingham, Emily Thornberry went to Kent, Rayner did not go to university at all
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    alex_ said:

    Good morning

    This conservative is not grumpy and delighted the ordinary people rose up against the elite and those wanting to stop the democratic vote to leave, even though I voted remain

    And judging by the posts this morning, so many are still fighting the lost battle to remain or are actively hoping the country fails

    I am made of sterner stuff and see a promising future and am not the least negative

    Have a good day folks

    There was a time when you quit the Tory Party over a threat to leave the EU without a trade deal in place. Has your son got a new job?

    Airbus has committed to the UK no matter what happens to the negotiations and if you check all the constituencies around the Airbus North Wales factory turned blue apart from Alyn and Deeside which was held by labour with a 213 majority

    It is time for everyone to accept Brexit is happening or just be in a permanent state of depression
    Brexit is happening. Boris with his lite manifesto has a blank cheque to do whatever he likes. There are no effective cautionary or moderating forces in the Conservative party or parliament. This is the era of populist strong man politics. Usually this sort of thing doesn’t end so well. So depression is probably a logical reaction at this stage.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,386
    Jonathan said:

    Corbyn proved that any old fool can lead the Labour Party. That’s easy. The tricky bit is leading it to victory and becoming PM. There are a couple of oven ready candidates; Cooper and Starmer. The challenge is to identify some who will grow into the role over five years.

    I don't think either of those names are the answer.

    There again when I was in the Party I voted for Ed Milliband, so what do I know?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    felix said:

    nichomar said:

    IanB2 said:

    This story about Johnson and Cummings outlawing an extension next year is extremely significant.

    It may mean that this new pragmatic face people were hoping from them next year on the negotiations may not materialise.

    Of course it won't. They want Brexit "done" quickly, the last thing they want is the negotiations still going on when the next election is called, even if that would be best for the economy. They will attempt a quick and limited deal on their terms, and if the EU won't accept their terms then it's "WTO" Brexit at year-end, with a hope that the economy can recover from the inevitable crash by 2024. People assume that because Cummings is smart he will also be pragmatic, which I think is a mistake. Strap in!
    The markets are clearly going through the same thought process; having risen to $1.35 after the exit poll, the £ has quickly sunk back to about $1.325
    Since Thursday night I wanted, no prayed, that this time our new PM would deliver his one nation approach, demonstrate pragmatism and use his majority for the national good not the Tory good. He appears to be falling at the first fence I was willing to give him six months before judging progress but it’s not looking good.
    I'm sure he can live without your support.
    Is it just me, or are the people on here whose side won the election in a worse mood than those who lost? Come on PB Tories, you now have everything you ever dreamed of - an opportunity to deliver the kind of Brexit you know will be a great success for the whole UK, a big Tory majority to reshape the country every way you want, and a strong leader who has united the party and won over erstwhile Labour supporters with promises that he can surely deliver. Why so grumpy?
    I'm not - just depressing that the great whinge goes on and on and on. Ted Heath would be proud of some of you.
    Who's whinging? You have won the political argument on Brexit, well done. I still think you're wrong, and I won't hesitate to say so as the evidence accumulates. Enjoy!
    TBF you weren't the particular moaner I had in mind.
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,019
    algarkirk said:

    Sorry if this has been pointed out before but if the answer to the Labour conundrum requires: woman, electable, northern seat and Oxford then step forward Yvette Cooper. Destiny calls.

    It would be nice for the this country to have a PM who is not a war criminal at some point.

    So think again.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    HYUFD said:

    alex_ said:

    HYUFD said:

    I don't think the second degree counts so Kier Starmer is out. So it's Angela Rayner?

    Of course second degrees count, Bill Clinton went to Georgetown for undergraduate only Yale as a postgraduate but is still considered a Yale graduate.

    Obama went to Occidental college as an undergraduate only Harvard as a postgraduate but is still considered a Harvard graduate.

    Gerald Ford went to Michigan as an undergraduate only Harvard as a postgraduate but is still considered a Harvard graduate.

    Rayner went to no university at all
    I live the way that you get to determine what “counts”? As if somehow it means much anyway! The only person who gets to define that is the person who wrote the thread in the first place!
    OGH defined it as MPs who won an election with an alma mater at Oxford.

    Starmer's alma mater was Oxford, even if for a second degree not a first.

    In fact if Cooper does not stand Starmer will be the only Labour leadership contender with an Oxford degree, Long-Bailey went to Manchester Met, Nandy went to Newcastle and Birkbeck, Clive Lewis went to Bradford and Sandhurst, Jess Phillips went to Leeds and Birmingham, Emily Thornberry went to Kent, Rayner did not go to university at all
    Burgon was Oxbridge but Cambridge not Oxford and seems to be going for Deputy not Leader anyway.

    In fact since Blair only Ed Miliband of Labour leaders went to Oxford
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729
    edited December 2019
    Jonathan said:

    Corbyn proved that any old fool can lead the Labour Party. That’s easy. The tricky bit is leading it to victory and becoming PM. There are a couple of oven ready candidates; Cooper and Starmer. The challenge is to identify some who will grow into the role over five years.

    happy to have a charity tenner with you that it won't be Cooper and even if it is she will lose..
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    Jonathan said:

    Corbyn proved that any old fool can lead the Labour Party. That’s easy. The tricky bit is leading it to victory and becoming PM. There are a couple of oven ready candidates; Cooper and Starmer. The challenge is to identify some who will grow into the role over five years.

    I don't think either of those names are the answer.

    There again when I was in the Party I voted for Ed Milliband, so what do I know?
    Starmer and Cooper could become PM today. We need someone who will become PM in five years.

    Arguably the best solution is to elect someone to do the hard slog of fixing things and create a talented shadow cabinet where people can shine. Then have an election 2-3 years out to find a fresh face, picked from the cabinet stars, to win the election.

    Smith-Blair
    May-Johnson
    Howard-Cameron
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Foxy said:

    Alistair said:

    @Pulpstar did you ever work out what to do, here is my book


    Don't spend it all at once...
    Given I was all red before Mr Meeks tipped RLB @ 5 I'm pretty happy with where I am now!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,236

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Mike appears to be arguing that Oxford pay reparations.

    Always rather sad that Oxford/Cambridge alumni seem to get stuck, never quite progressing from where they went to college. Always mentioning it as if it should matter.

    Well it only matters inasmuch as those who did not go there seem rather jealous (inwardly if not outwardly) of those who did.
    Well, it is a bit annoying to have to work for a degree when at Oxford you can buy it for four guineas.
    Perhaps your old university should use market forces and undercut Oxford,
    Are you suggesting they should go for £2.50 for an MA?
    Far be it for me to set a market rate, but the benchmark is there...
    Yes, but my MA is an actual degree, not a piece of paper with some funny writing in a dead language on it.* So it’s worth more than four guineas...

    Have a good day.

    *Cue jokes about the fact it’s in Welsh.
    That strange creole -- Boris Johnson.
    Very strange, as it isn't a creole.

    Boris Johnson, an Oxford graduate who wears his linguistic learning very lightly indeed.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    Alistair said:

    @Pulpstar did you ever work out what to do, here is my book


    Don't spend it all at once...
    From little acorns... looks like a classic book for a “lay the front runner” strategy. Although to be fair that is probably more profitable on football manager markets.
    I had built up green on back and lays of Jarvis and Starmer then had it blow up in my face when I tried to do the same with Watson and Thornberry.

    A back and lay of RLB rescued me. And now I am out and enjoying the two Small lattes my winnings will get me.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,236

    alex_ said:

    Good morning

    This conservative is not grumpy and delighted the ordinary people rose up against the elite and those wanting to stop the democratic vote to leave, even though I voted remain

    And judging by the posts this morning, so many are still fighting the lost battle to remain or are actively hoping the country fails

    I am made of sterner stuff and see a promising future and am not the least negative

    Have a good day folks

    There was a time when you quit the Tory Party over a threat to leave the EU without a trade deal in place. Has your son got a new job?

    Airbus has committed to the UK no matter what happens to the negotiations and if you check all the constituencies around the Airbus North Wales factory turned blue apart from Alyn and Deeside which was held by labour with a 213 majority

    It is time for everyone to accept Brexit is happening or just be in a permanent state of depression
    Who doesn't accept that Brexit is happening ?

    Tories seem to have adopted the strange idea that because they won an election, anything they do is now beyond criticism.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    edited December 2019
    Former Pakistani President General Pervez Musharraf sentenced to death in Islamabad but he is in exile in Dubai

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-50819772
  • isam said:

    nichomar said:

    IanB2 said:

    This story about Johnson and Cummings outlawing an extension next year is extremely significant.

    It may mean that this new pragmatic face people were hoping from them next year on the negotiations may not materialise.

    Of course it won't. They want Brexit "done" quickly, the last thing they want is the negotiations still going on when the next election is called, even if that would be best for the economy. They will attempt a quick and limited deal on their terms,
    The markets are clearly going through the same thought process; having risen to $1.35 after the exit poll, the £ has quickly sunk back to about $1.325
    Since Thursday night
    I'm sure he can live without your support.
    Is it just me, or are the people on here whose side won the election in a worse mood than those who lost? Come on PB Tories, you now have everything you ever dreamed of - an opportunity to deliver the kind of Brexit you know will be a great success for the whole UK, a big Tory majority to reshape the country every way you want, and a strong leader who has united the party and won over erstwhile Labour supporters with promises that he can surely deliver. Why so grumpy?
    It's just you. The people who lost are following the predictable path of forecasting doom because the public didn't agree with them.
    I don't know about forecasting doom. Forecasting the economic outlook is a big part of my job, so I do my best to separate out my personal views and come to an objective forecast. It is quite hard to escape the conclusion that the next couple of years are likely to be challenging for the UK economy, indeed we may already be in recession if the PMI surveys are a guide.
    I totally accept the public have chosen Brexit and trust Boris Johnson to deliver it effectively. I disagree with that choice and think their trust is misplaced. But to be honest the fact that I no longer feel the decision can be stopped has lifted a great weight from my shoulders. I always felt that letting Brexit happen would be really wrong, but trying to overturn a democratic choice was also wrong. On balance I thought it was still best to try to stop the country making this mistake, but it was a painful dilemma.
    Now that dilemma is over. My first focus is on protecting my own family from the pain that will come. At work I will try to provide objective analysis of how it will end up. And on here I will comment on how I think it is going.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,386
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Corbyn proved that any old fool can lead the Labour Party. That’s easy. The tricky bit is leading it to victory and becoming PM. There are a couple of oven ready candidates; Cooper and Starmer. The challenge is to identify some who will grow into the role over five years.

    I don't think either of those names are the answer.

    There again when I was in the Party I voted for Ed Milliband, so what do I know?
    Starmer and Cooper could become PM today. We need someone who will become PM in five years.

    Arguably the best solution is to elect someone to do the hard slog of fixing things and create a talented shadow cabinet where people can shine. Then have an election 2-3 years out to find a fresh face, picked from the cabinet stars, to win the election.

    Smith-Blair
    May-Johnson
    Howard-Cameron
    That would be perfect. However when you snap out of your trance, you will concede disappointingly that something so sensible will not happen.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038

    Good morning

    This conservative is not grumpy and delighted the ordinary people rose up against the elite and those wanting to stop the democratic vote to leave, even though I voted remain

    And judging by the posts this morning, so many are still fighting the lost battle to remain or are actively hoping the country fails

    I am made of sterner stuff and see a promising future and am not the least negative

    Have a good day folks

    Rose up against the elite and voted for Boris Johnson. Eton, Oxford, Bullingdon Club.

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,127
    Foxy said:

    Alistair said:

    @Pulpstar did you ever work out what to do, here is my book


    Don't spend it all at once...
    "Nobody ever went broke by taking a small profit"
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,019


    I don't know about forecasting doom. Forecasting the economic outlook is a big part of my job, so I do my best to separate out my personal views and come to an objective forecast. It is quite hard to escape the conclusion that the next couple of years are likely to be challenging for the UK economy, indeed we may already be in recession if the PMI surveys are a guide.
    I totally accept the public have chosen Brexit and trust Boris Johnson to deliver it effectively. I disagree with that choice and think their trust is misplaced. But to be honest the fact that I no longer feel the decision can be stopped has lifted a great weight from my shoulders. I always felt that letting Brexit happen would be really wrong, but trying to overturn a democratic choice was also wrong. On balance I thought it was still best to try to stop the country making this mistake, but it was a painful dilemma.
    Now that dilemma is over. My first focus is on protecting my own family from the pain that will come. At work I will try to provide objective analysis of how it will end up. And on here I will comment on how I think it is going.

    When it turns to shit, we will be in the firing line as not patriotic enough. Fire will be turned on the internal enemies of The People's Government.

    It's really going to be a fab decade.
  • It does seem to me that the 'hard-left' of labour are yet again much much more organised (and already have the power of both Unite/Unions and Momentum) the the soft left are.

    Are people like Lisa Nandy or Jess Phillips building up anything at all.

    I think it's nigh on already a done deal for Long-Bailey. She has already everything she needs seemingly behind her.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    viewcode said:

    Foxy said:

    Alistair said:

    @Pulpstar did you ever work out what to do, here is my book


    Don't spend it all at once...
    "Nobody ever went broke by taking a small profit"
    Deeply tempted to ruin it by laying RLB now she is odds on.
  • Boris Johnson once again casually betraying those who relied on his word:

    https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1206825958797463552

    That's absolutely pathetic. He made compromises to the Opposition if they helped get his deal through before Halloween. They didn't, so we had an election. He's won a majority in the election so no longer needs the Opposition.

    If the Opposition MPs wanted their compromises to be in the legislation they should have ensured the legislation went through instead of frustrating it and seeing an election instead.
  • HYUFD said:
    She might be changing her tune when she starts to see how expensive it is to live in London..also worth pointing out, once tax is deducted, its only £20k she's giving up.

    But fair play to her.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,386
    Jonathan said:

    alex_ said:

    Good morning

    This conservative is not grumpy and delighted the ordinary people rose up against the elite and those wanting to stop the democratic vote to leave, even though I voted remain

    And judging by the posts this morning, so many are still fighting the lost battle to remain or are actively hoping the country fails

    I am made of sterner stuff and see a promising future and am not the least negative

    Have a good day folks

    There was a time when you quit the Tory Party over a threat to leave the EU without a trade deal in place. Has your son got a new job?

    Airbus has committed to the UK no matter what happens to the negotiations and if you check all the constituencies around the Airbus North Wales factory turned blue apart from Alyn and Deeside which was held by labour with a 213 majority

    It is time for everyone to accept Brexit is happening or just be in a permanent state of depression
    Brexit is happening. Boris with his lite manifesto has a blank cheque to do whatever he likes. There are no effective cautionary or moderating forces in the Conservative party or parliament. This is the era of populist strong man politics. Usually this sort of thing doesn’t end so well. So depression is probably a logical reaction at this stage.
    I do fear that Boris will future proof himself and his party by tweaking boundaries and putting in place voter suppression strategies. There are absolutely no checks and balances in place. He has no party, or parliamentary opposition. The media is on side, he can stifle the judiciary with his parliamentary numbers, he plans to ram the HoL full of devotees, and while Brexit stays in the forefront, the electorate will be on board too.
  • Morning all and on thread, I suppose the old adage applies, "if it an't broke, don't fix it"! As a Glasgow graduate I have no view on whether a PM should be an Oxford graduate or not.

    On Labour leadership, Boris will think all his Christmases have come at once if Labour elects Rebecca Long-Bailey as leader and Richard Burgon as her deputy. The film title "Dumb and Dumber" comes to mind although "Thicko and extremely Thicko" might be more appropriate. The one good thing for British politics occasioned by their election would hopefully be the remaining moderately centre-left Labour MPs would join up with the rump of the LibDems and create an SDP Mark II which could then become the main opposition and begin to hold Boris' government to account. Sadly if that does not happen then realistically the SNP will be the official opposition in all but name.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    So pick the Labour contenders who went to Oxford. Simple.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,212
    Alistair said:

    Foxy said:

    Alistair said:

    @Pulpstar did you ever work out what to do, here is my book


    Don't spend it all at once...
    Given I was all red before Mr Meeks tipped RLB @ 5 I'm pretty happy with where I am now!
    Last move was to back Rayner !
    If she's backing Long Bailey then it all looks over(ish). Lets see who the runners and riders are anyhow
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,472

    Boris Johnson once again casually betraying those who relied on his word:

    https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1206825958797463552

    Like, duh.
    Anyone who believes a word that comes out of Johnson's mouth needs their head examined.
    Carrie Symonds? As previously suggested.
  • On House of Lords reform, I have thought for 20 years that we should have a small "elected" HoL of around 250-300 members. They would be made up of multi-member regional/national lists and elected on the proportion of votes awarded to each party at the GE similar to the way the top-up regional MSPs are elected to the Scottish Parliament. Using this method they would be "elected" but would not have a direct mandate thus preserving their status as a reforming chamber only.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    I'm curious at Labours denial phase where Blair is still persona non grata but Corbyn is the Boss because theres some who are stressing its important to reflect and not rush to some simplistic analysis of why they lost which blames the leader...while simultaneously being very immediately confident it was all to do with Brexit and Saint Jeremy is fantastic.

    Its actually impressive how the praetorian guard of his support does not appear shaken in the slightest despite the result.
  • isam said:

    nichomar said:

    IanB2 said:



    The markets are clearly going through the same thought process; having risen to $1.35 after the exit poll, the £ has quickly sunk back to about $1.325

    Since Thursday night
    I'm sure he can live without your support.
    Is it just me, or are the people on here whose side won the election in a worse mood than those who lost? Come on PB Tories, you now have everything you ever dreamed of - an opportunity to deliver the kind of Brexit you know will be a great success for the whole UK, a big Tory majority to reshape the country every way you want, and a strong leader who has united the party and won over erstwhile Labour supporters with promises that he can surely deliver. Why so grumpy?
    It's just you. The people who lost are following the predictable path of forecasting doom because the public didn't agree with them.
    I don't know about forecasting doom. Forecasting the economic outlook is a big part of my job, so I do my best to separate out my personal views and come to an objective forecast. It is quite hard to escape the conclusion that the next couple of years are likely to be challenging for the UK economy, indeed we may already be in recession if the PMI surveys are a guide.
    I totally accept the public have chosen Brexit and trust Boris Johnson to deliver it effectively. I disagree with that choice and think their trust is misplaced. But to be honest the fact that I no longer feel the decision can be stopped has lifted a great weight from my shoulders. I always felt that letting Brexit happen would be really wrong, but trying to overturn a democratic choice was also wrong. On balance I thought it was still best to try to stop the country making this mistake, but it was a painful dilemma.
    Now that dilemma is over. My first focus is on protecting my own family from the pain that will come. At work I will try to provide objective analysis of how it will end up. And on here I will comment on how I think it is going.
    This is a very honest and sobering assessment. We have some very good friends (one German, one Hungarian) who are EU nationals, but whose kids are essentially British, so they are coming to terms with the new reality. As ardently anti-Brexit as I am, there is a certain inevitability now.

    Churchill's quote of "if you are going through hell, keep going" comes to mind. And all the time, the ticking clock of climate change continues...
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Boris Johnson once again casually betraying those who relied on his word:

    https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1206825958797463552

    That's absolutely pathetic. He made compromises to the Opposition if they helped get his deal through before Halloween. They didn't, so we had an election. He's won a majority in the election so no longer needs the Opposition.

    If the Opposition MPs wanted their compromises to be in the legislation they should have ensured the legislation went through instead of frustrating it and seeing an election instead.
    Boris Johnson pulled his own bill, it had been voted through.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,472
    Mango said:

    alex_ said:

    This story about Johnson and Cummings outlawing an extension next year is extremely significant.

    This new pragmatic face people were hoping for from them on Brexit next year may not be there.

    The absolute stupidity comes not from the debates about whether a deal can be negotiated in the tiny time frame. It comes from the fact that even then it can be torpedoed during the subsequent legislative process by any number of EU countries/regional parliaments for whom a trade deal with the U.K. will have zero significance whatsoever. Especially if it has no freedom of movement provisions which is the only relevant thing for many country’s relationship with the UK.

    That, TBH, is quite a thought. Means of course that when Boris/Cummings say they are 'outlawing an extension', all they can actually mean is that by 31/12/20 they will have reached a deal with the Commission on which both agree. If Wallonia or Lithuania isn't happy we still have to sit tight and wait. I assume that our Government would arrange trade deals to be activated immediately Wallonia etc get round to agreeing.
    If Germany and France agree, the little countries will get into line. That's what being in the EU means. Which is why I'm glad we're leaving.
    You have been shown time and again to know fuck all about it.
    Remind me again about Wallonia.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609

    Morning all and on thread, I suppose the old adage applies, "if it an't broke, don't fix it"! As a Glasgow graduate I have no view on whether a PM should be an Oxford graduate or not.

    On Labour leadership, Boris will think all his Christmases have come at once if Labour elects Rebecca Long-Bailey as leader and Richard Burgon as her deputy. The film title "Dumb and Dumber" comes to mind although "Thicko and extremely Thicko" might be more appropriate. The one good thing for British politics occasioned by their election would hopefully be the remaining moderately centre-left Labour MPs would join up with the rump of the LibDems and create an SDP Mark II which could then become the main opposition and begin to hold Boris' government to account. Sadly if that does not happen then realistically the SNP will be the official opposition in all but name.

    If RLB gets elected, I do wonder if she will still be in post by the time the next election comes along. Four more opportunities to lose local councillors before then. If the public takes to her as badly as I suspect they will, then.....

    Long-Drop beckons.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    Jonathan said:

    alex_ said:

    Good morning

    This conservative is not grumpy and delighted the ordinary people rose up against the elite and those wanting to stop the democratic vote to leave, even though I voted remain

    And judging by the posts this morning, so many are still fighting the lost battle to remain or are actively hoping the country fails

    I am made of sterner stuff and see a promising future and am not the least negative

    Have a good day folks

    There was a time when you quit the Tory Party over a threat to leave the EU without a trade deal in place. Has your son got a new job?

    Airbus has committed to the UK no matter what happens to the negotiations and if you check all the constituencies around the Airbus North Wales factory turned blue apart from Alyn and Deeside which was held by labour with a 213 majority

    It is time for everyone to accept Brexit is happening or just be in a permanent state of depression
    Brexit is happening. Boris with his lite manifesto has a blank cheque to do whatever he likes. There are no effective cautionary or moderating forces in the Conservative party or parliament. This is the era of populist strong man politics. Usually this sort of thing doesn’t end so well. So depression is probably a logical reaction at this stage.
    I do fear that Boris will future proof himself and his party by tweaking boundaries and putting in place voter suppression strategies. There are absolutely no checks and balances in place. He has no party, or parliamentary opposition. The media is on side, he can stifle the judiciary with his parliamentary numbers, he plans to ram the HoL full of devotees, and while Brexit stays in the forefront, the electorate will be on board too.
    He has no power to change boundaries. Had the boundaries been fair last week his majority may have been much bigger.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    kle4 said:

    I'm curious at Labours denial phase where Blair is still persona non grata but Corbyn is the Boss because theres some who are stressing its important to reflect and not rush to some simplistic analysis of why they lost which blames the leader...while simultaneously being very immediately confident it was all to do with Brexit and Saint Jeremy is fantastic.

    Its actually impressive how the praetorian guard of his support does not appear shaken in the slightest despite the result.

    Plenty of people who aren't Corbynistas are equally unshaken. Winning a majority doesnt give any of his haters pause for thought, they just double down
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    kle4 said:

    I'm curious at Labours denial phase where Blair is still persona non grata but Corbyn is the Boss because theres some who are stressing its important to reflect and not rush to some simplistic analysis of why they lost which blames the leader...while simultaneously being very immediately confident it was all to do with Brexit and Saint Jeremy is fantastic.

    Its actually impressive how the praetorian guard of his support does not appear shaken in the slightest despite the result.

    Oh come, it completely natural at this stage to defend their wounded leader.
  • nichomar said:

    IanB2 said:

    This story about Johnson and Cummings outlawing an extension next year is extremely significant.

    It may mean that this new pragmatic face people were hoping from them next year on the negotiations may not materialise.

    Of course it won't. They want Brexit "done" quickly, the last thing they want is the negotiations still going on when the next election is called, even if that would be best for the economy. They will attempt a quick and limited deal on their terms, and if the EU won't accept their terms then it's "WTO" Brexit at year-end, with a hope that the economy can recover from the inevitable crash by 2024. People assume that because Cummings is smart he will also be pragmatic, which I think is a mistake. Strap in!
    The markets are clearly going through the same thought process; having risen to $1.35 after the exit poll, the £ has quickly sunk back to about $1.325
    Since Thursday night I wanted, no prayed, that this time our new PM would deliver his one nation approach, demonstrate pragmatism and use his majority for the national good not the Tory good. He appears to be falling at the first fence I was willing to give him six months before judging progress but it’s not looking good.
    I'm sure he can live without your support.
    Is it just me, or are the people on here whose side won the election in a worse mood than those who lost? Come on PB Tories, you now have everything you ever dreamed of - an opportunity to deliver the kind of Brexit you know will be a great success for the whole UK, a big Tory majority to reshape the country every way you want, and a strong leader who has united the party and won over erstwhile Labour supporters with promises that he can surely deliver. Why so grumpy?
    I'm not grumpy, I'm quite happy.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153

    Boris Johnson once again casually betraying those who relied on his word:

    https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1206825958797463552

    We don't know what hed have done if they had backed his deal sufficiently to get it through. He was desperate to ram it through quickly he likely would have accepted it if it meant he got his timetable. The situation has changed so of course he changes what he offered
  • HYUFD said:
    Did he say where these doorsteps were ?
This discussion has been closed.