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  • Alistair said:
    Have the SCons made any statement after their campaign based solely on stopping Indyref II was such miserable. shitstinking failure? I assume they now accept the will of the people.

    https://twitter.com/ScotTories/status/1205019547272654848?s=20
  • How much do you think the government can raise from privatising Channel 4 and is there any reason that shouldn't be done?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,214

    Interesting discussion on the thread this morning. Like Paristonda, I think Johnson will get a bare-bones deal through, which may be sub-optimal financially but that plays second fiddle to politics for him. A Conservative friend expresses mild concern about the talk of far-reaching constitutional change (and that was before this morning's talk of scrapping the current laws), but here again I think the primacy of politics for Johnson shows through.

    Is the Lords difficult? Let's scrap them. Are the BBC unhelpful? Let's dump the licence fee. Are the courts obstructive? Let's reduce their power. It's a pattern.

    On the Labour side, an interesting article for punters by the Labour List editor, who usually has a very good feeling for the party pulse - the poll is also likely to be pretty accurate as the blog reaches all parts of the party. The RLB bandwagon is evident, as is the Corbynsceptic bloc of 40% or so looking at Starmer. Not yet in the bag for RLB, I think, especially with the new members pouring in to influence the outcome one way or the other.

    https://labourlist.org/2019/12/everything-to-play-for-as-labours-leadership-contests-unfold/

    14% rather than 40% for Starmer I think? My reading is most on that survey haven't made up their mind. Does look like Nandy doesn't have much support though, perhaps she doesn't have the profile. Owen Jones previously backed her for leader, so I wonder if that could give her the boost needed.
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100
    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    alex_ said:

    Good morning

    This conservative is not grumpy and delighted the ordinary people rose up against the elite and those wanting to stop the democratic vote to leave, even though I voted remain

    And judging by the posts this morning, so many are still fighting the lost battle to remain or are actively hoping the country fails

    I am made of sterner stuff and see a promising future and am not the least negative

    Have a good day folks

    There was a time when you quit the Tory Party over a threat to leave the EU without a trade deal in place. Has your son got a new job?

    Airbus has committed to the UK no matter what happens to the negotiations and if you check all the constituencies around the Airbus North Wales factory turned blue apart from Alyn and Deeside which was held by labour with a 213 majority

    It is time for everyone to accept Brexit is happening or just be in a permanent state of depression
    Who doesn't accept that Brexit is happening ?

    Tories seem to have adopted the strange idea that because they won an election, anything they do is now beyond criticism.
    Our opponents seem to have adopted the strange idea that because we won an election, anything we do in our manifesto has no authority.

    It will serve you well no doubt for the next five years.

    And the next five.

    And the next five......
    Was there much in the manifesto?
    Not extending the transition period was in the manifesto. So all the faux shock and horror that the Tory manifesto pledge is being honoured is a bit . . . strange.
    In bold text on page 5: we will not extend the implementation period beyond December 2020.
    Doesnt need a law to ensure that.
    Good politics though? It's certainly rattled a few cages on here.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    Byronic said:

    eek said:

    "Can the Tories deepen shallow roots in the North East?"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50820302

    There's an interesting difference between now Conservative dominated Teesside and Tyneside with its still total Labour domination.

    I have a theory that conurbations of towns such as Teeside (and likewise the Potteries, the Black Country and the Bournemouth-Poole-Christchurch area) are different to conurbations based around a single big city.
    Areas with urban blight but without the swanky city centre and its associated glass-fronted offices.
    Teesside, the Potteries, the Black Country and even Bournemouth just don't have the critical mass that a city (even Newcastle) does.

    Once upon a time I would have said the issue was transport links but that's definitely not the case in Darlington as it has a Motorway, mainline rail services and an airport.
    A half-way decent university can transform a town
    Stoke has a decent university - Keele.
  • Alistair said:
    Have the SCons made any statement after their campaign based solely on stopping Indyref II was such miserable. shitstinking failure? I assume they now accept the will of the people.

    https://twitter.com/ScotTories/status/1205019547272654848?s=20
    The campaign was a huge success. Those MPs are sitting in a massive nationwide majority across Westminster.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Tabman said:

    isam said:

    Tabman said:

    GDBO!!!!

    Great Danish Bake Off?
    https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=GDBO
    Oh! New one for me
  • eek said:

    Byronic said:

    eek said:

    "Can the Tories deepen shallow roots in the North East?"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50820302

    There's an interesting difference between now Conservative dominated Teesside and Tyneside with its still total Labour domination.

    I have a theory that conurbations of towns such as Teeside (and likewise the Potteries, the Black Country and the Bournemouth-Poole-Christchurch area) are different to conurbations based around a single big city.
    Areas with urban blight but without the swanky city centre and its associated glass-fronted offices.
    Teesside, the Potteries, the Black Country and even Bournemouth just don't have the critical mass that a city (even Newcastle) does.

    Once upon a time I would have said the issue was transport links but that's definitely not the case in Darlington as it has a Motorway, mainline rail services and an airport.
    A half-way decent university can transform a town
    Stoke has a decent university - Keele.
    Newcastle not Stoke.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    alterego said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    alex_ said:

    Good morning

    This conservative is not grumpy and delighted the ordinary people rose up against the elite and those wanting to stop the democratic vote to leave, even though I voted remain

    And judging by the posts this morning, so many are still fighting the lost battle to remain or are actively hoping the country fails

    I am made of sterner stuff and see a promising future and am not the least negative

    Have a good day folks

    There was a time when you quit the Tory Party over a threat to leave the EU without a trade deal in place. Has your son got a new job?

    Airbus has committed to the UK no matter what happens to the negotiations and if you check all the constituencies around the Airbus North Wales factory turned blue apart from Alyn and Deeside which was held by labour with a 213 majority

    It is time for everyone to accept Brexit is happening or just be in a permanent state of depression
    Who doesn't accept that Brexit is happening ?

    Tories seem to have adopted the strange idea that because they won an election, anything they do is now beyond criticism.
    Our opponents seem to have adopted the strange idea that because we won an election, anything we do in our manifesto has no authority.

    It will serve you well no doubt for the next five years.

    And the next five.

    And the next five......
    Was there much in the manifesto?
    Not extending the transition period was in the manifesto. So all the faux shock and horror that the Tory manifesto pledge is being honoured is a bit . . . strange.
    In bold text on page 5: we will not extend the implementation period beyond December 2020.
    Doesnt need a law to ensure that.
    Good politics though? It's certainly rattled a few cages on here.
    Only because we think it's backing himself into a corner - it's almost like Boris was given a gun from the election result and he's already shot himself in the leg.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,050
    edited December 2019
    <<<When under 3rd country rules 50% of goods are tariff free to export to the EU, the next 30% are less than 3% tariff and it is the last 20% that have high tariffs. The high tariffs are on food, cars and textiles where the EU runs large surpluses with the UK.
    The nation states in the EU now have a very clear choice if you want >>>

    Britain forcing its key demands on the EU27 has a 0% success rate since 2016.
  • eek said:

    Byronic said:

    eek said:

    "Can the Tories deepen shallow roots in the North East?"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50820302

    There's an interesting difference between now Conservative dominated Teesside and Tyneside with its still total Labour domination.

    I have a theory that conurbations of towns such as Teeside (and likewise the Potteries, the Black Country and the Bournemouth-Poole-Christchurch area) are different to conurbations based around a single big city.
    Areas with urban blight but without the swanky city centre and its associated glass-fronted offices.
    Teesside, the Potteries, the Black Country and even Bournemouth just don't have the critical mass that a city (even Newcastle) does.

    Once upon a time I would have said the issue was transport links but that's definitely not the case in Darlington as it has a Motorway, mainline rail services and an airport.
    A half-way decent university can transform a town
    Stoke has a decent university - Keele.
    You have an interesting definition of decent....
  • Oxford’s a complete dump.

    Just look at the number of Nobel Laureates Cambridge has produced versus the number the dump has.

    Produced lots of traitors too
    Yes but successful traitors! The Oxford spy ring was rounded up almost before it was started. The Cambridge spies had long and exemplary careers giving away our secrets and leading to the deaths of thousands.
  • Alistair said:
    Have the SCons made any statement after their campaign based solely on stopping Indyref II was such miserable. shitstinking failure? I assume they now accept the will of the people.

    https://twitter.com/ScotTories/status/1205019547272654848?s=20
    The campaign was a huge success. Those MPs are sitting in a massive nationwide majority across Westminster.
    How's the SNP's 'top Brexit' going?
    https://twitter.com/kevverage/status/1206629077861519361?s=20
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    alterego said:

    algarkirk said:

    Is there any evidence that RLB is or is not a Marxist? Or indeed whether she is on record as supporting our enemies?

    Evidence? I don't recall seeing any evidence but we know the Corbyn cohort think highly of her and are, everso gently, promoting her, so I suspect that is a fair indication, if not of Marxism then something to the wide left of central.
    Google says she is a practising Catholic, which might temper any hard leftwingery. Other than that she is rather opaque. A bit Green, a bit right-on...
  • eek said:

    alterego said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    alex_ said:

    Good morning

    This conservative is not grumpy and delighted the ordinary people rose up against the elite and those wanting to stop the democratic vote to leave, even though I voted remain

    And judging by the posts this morning, so many are still fighting the lost battle to remain or are actively hoping the country fails

    I am made of sterner stuff and see a promising future and am not the least negative

    Have a good day folks

    There was a time when you quit the Tory Party over a threat to leave the EU without a trade deal in place. Has your son got a new job?

    Airbus has committed to the UK no matter what happens to the negotiations and if you check all the constituencies around the Airbus North Wales factory turned blue apart from Alyn and Deeside which was held by labour with a 213 majority

    It is time for everyone to accept Brexit is happening or just be in a permanent state of depression
    Who doesn't accept that Brexit is happening ?

    Tories seem to have adopted the strange idea that because they won an election, anything they do is now beyond criticism.
    Our opponents seem to have adopted the strange idea that because we won an election, anything we do in our manifesto has no authority.

    It will serve you well no doubt for the next five years.

    And the next five.

    And the next five......
    Was there much in the manifesto?
    Not extending the transition period was in the manifesto. So all the faux shock and horror that the Tory manifesto pledge is being honoured is a bit . . . strange.
    In bold text on page 5: we will not extend the implementation period beyond December 2020.
    Doesnt need a law to ensure that.
    Good politics though? It's certainly rattled a few cages on here.
    Only because we think it's backing himself into a corner - it's almost like Boris was given a gun from the election result and he's already shot himself in the leg.
    How is implementing his number one manifesto promise shooting himself in the leg?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    edited December 2019
    He is still going on about the Zionists....

    https://twitter.com/DerbyChrisW/status/1206831392258232320
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    eek said:

    eek said:

    "Can the Tories deepen shallow roots in the North East?"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50820302

    There's an interesting difference between now Conservative dominated Teesside and Tyneside with its still total Labour domination.

    I have a theory that conurbations of towns such as Teeside (and likewise the Potteries, the Black Country and the Bournemouth-Poole-Christchurch area) are different to conurbations based around a single big city.
    Areas with urban blight but without the swanky city centre and its associated glass-fronted offices.
    Teesside, the Potteries, the Black Country and even Bournemouth just don't have the critical mass that a city (even Newcastle) does.

    Once upon a time I would have said the issue was transport links but that's definitely not the case in Darlington as it has a Motorway, mainline rail services and an airport.
    Michael Porter in the Competitive Advantage of Nations states that the biggest gains come from the virtuous circle of having multiple competitors in the same area. So I suspect it's a critical mass issue
    It's often the case in retail circles that two or three similar shops in the same area result in more trade for each. Depends on the type of business, of course.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    eek said:

    alterego said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    alex_ said:

    Good morning

    This conservative is not grumpy and delighted the ordinary people rose up against the elite and those wanting to stop the democratic vote to leave, even though I voted remain

    And judging by the posts this morning, so many are still fighting the lost battle to remain or are actively hoping the country fails

    I am made of sterner stuff and see a promising future and am not the least negative

    Have a good day folks

    There was a time when you quit the Tory Party over a threat to leave the EU without a trade deal in place. Has your son got a new job?

    Airbus has committed to the UK no matter what happens to the negotiations and if you check all the constituencies around the Airbus North Wales factory turned blue apart from Alyn and Deeside which was held by labour with a 213 majority

    It is time for everyone to accept Brexit is happening or just be in a permanent state of depression
    Who doesn't accept that Brexit is happening ?

    Tories seem to have adopted the strange idea that because they won an election, anything they do is now beyond criticism.
    Our opponents seem to have adopted the strange idea that because we won an election, anything we do in our manifesto has no authority.

    It will serve you well no doubt for the next five years.

    And the next five.

    And the next five......
    Was there much in the manifesto?
    Not extending the transition period was in the manifesto. So all the faux shock and horror that the Tory manifesto pledge is being honoured is a bit . . . strange.
    In bold text on page 5: we will not extend the implementation period beyond December 2020.
    Doesnt need a law to ensure that.
    Good politics though? It's certainly rattled a few cages on here.
    Only because we think it's backing himself into a corner - it's almost like Boris was given a gun from the election result and he's already shot himself in the leg.
    How is implementing his number one manifesto promise shooting himself in the leg?
    He's in danger of losing the "didn't vote for him last Thursday" vote
  • <<<When under 3rd country rules 50% of goods are tariff free to export to the EU, the next 30% are less than 3% tariff and it is the last 20% that have high tariffs. The high tariffs are on food, cars and textiles where the EU runs large surpluses with the UK.
    The nation states in the EU now have a very clear choice if you want >>>

    Britain forcing its key demands on the EU27 has a 0% success rate since 2016.

    It was a great success when Johnson replaced May onwards.

    Remember the Withdrawal Agreement that was sealed and impossible to change until Johnson got it changed?
    Remember how a unilateral exit from any backstop was impossible as then there would be no backstop, but then Johnson got the backstop dropped and a unilateral Stormont exit from Stormont's special arrangements?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,897
    Topped up on Starmer a bit, laid Nandy. Can't work out why she is 2nd favourite.

    I think it'll be Long Bailey vs Starmer with Long Bailey winning.
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100
    eek said:

    alterego said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    alex_ said:

    Good morning

    This conservative is not grumpy and delighted the ordinary people rose up against the elite and those wanting to stop the democratic vote to leave, even though I voted remain

    And judging by the posts this morning, so many are still fighting the lost battle to remain or are actively hoping the country fails

    I am made of sterner stuff and see a promising future and am not the least negative

    Have a good day folks

    There was a time when you quit the Tory Party over a threat to leave the EU without a trade deal in place. Has your son got a new job?

    Airbus has committed to the UK no matter what happens to the negotiations and if you check all the constituencies around the Airbus North Wales factory turned blue apart from Alyn and Deeside which was held by labour with a 213 majority

    It is time for everyone to accept Brexit is happening or just be in a permanent state of depression
    Who doesn't accept that Brexit is happening ?

    Tories seem to have adopted the strange idea that because they won an election, anything they do is now beyond criticism.
    Our opponents seem to have adopted the strange idea that because we won an election, anything we do in our manifesto has no authority.

    It will serve you well no doubt for the next five years.

    And the next five.

    And the next five......
    Was there much in the manifesto?
    Not extending the transition period was in the manifesto. So all the faux shock and horror that the Tory manifesto pledge is being honoured is a bit . . . strange.
    In bold text on page 5: we will not extend the implementation period beyond December 2020.
    Doesnt need a law to ensure that.
    Good politics though? It's certainly rattled a few cages on here.
    Only because we think it's backing himself into a corner - it's almost like Boris was given a gun from the election result and he's already shot himself in the leg.
    See!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    alterego said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    alex_ said:

    Good morning

    This conservative is not grumpy and delighted the ordinary people rose up against the elite and those wanting to stop the democratic vote to leave, even though I voted remain

    And judging by the posts this morning, so many are still fighting the lost battle to remain or are actively hoping the country fails

    I am made of sterner stuff and see a promising future and am not the least negative

    Have a good day folks

    There was a time when you quit the Tory Party over a threat to leave the EU without a trade deal in place. Has your son got a new job?

    Airbus has committed to the UK no matter what happens to the negotiations and if you check all the constituencies around the Airbus North Wales factory turned blue apart from Alyn and Deeside which was held by labour with a 213 majority

    It is time for everyone to accept Brexit is happening or just be in a permanent state of depression
    Who doesn't accept that Brexit is happening ?

    Tories seem to have adopted the strange idea that because they won an election, anything they do is now beyond criticism.
    Our opponents seem to have adopted the strange idea that because we won an election, anything we do in our manifesto has no authority.

    It will serve you well no doubt for the next five years.

    And the next five.

    And the next five......
    Was there much in the manifesto?
    Not extending the transition period was in the manifesto. So all the faux shock and horror that the Tory manifesto pledge is being honoured is a bit . . . strange.
    In bold text on page 5: we will not extend the implementation period beyond December 2020.
    Doesnt need a law to ensure that.
    Good politics though? It's certainly rattled a few cages on here.
    Assuring the base does seem the intent.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828

    He is still going on about the Zionists....

    https://twitter.com/DerbyChrisW/status/1206831392258232320

    Is that a soviet union pin he's wearing.... :smiley:
  • Wrong-Daily worries me. She could be as dangerous as Corbyn but superficially more popular. I hope not.
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100

    <<<When under 3rd country rules 50% of goods are tariff free to export to the EU, the next 30% are less than 3% tariff and it is the last 20% that have high tariffs. The high tariffs are on food, cars and textiles where the EU runs large surpluses with the UK.
    The nation states in the EU now have a very clear choice if you want >>>

    Britain forcing its key demands on the EU27 has a 0% success rate since 2016.

    The UK's negotiating position is much improved since the May wimp was Barnier's poodle.
  • camelcamel Posts: 815
    RobD said:

    He is still going on about the Zionists....

    https://twitter.com/DerbyChrisW/status/1206831392258232320

    Is that a soviet union pin he's wearing.... :smiley:
    I think politics can send some people quite literally mad.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    Yet another reason the #ReadyForEd movement grows stronger daily, comrades! Labour's mistake was giving Corbyn two elections but Ed only one!
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965

    Interesting discussion on the thread this morning. Like Paristonda, I think Johnson will get a bare-bones deal through, which may be sub-optimal financially but that plays second fiddle to politics for him. A Conservative friend expresses mild concern about the talk of far-reaching constitutional change (and that was before this morning's talk of scrapping the current laws), but here again I think the primacy of politics for Johnson shows through.

    Is the Lords difficult? Let's scrap them. Are the BBC unhelpful? Let's dump the licence fee. Are the courts obstructive? Let's reduce their power. It's a pattern.

    On the Labour side, an interesting article for punters by the Labour List editor, who usually has a very good feeling for the party pulse - the poll is also likely to be pretty accurate as the blog reaches all parts of the party. The RLB bandwagon is evident, as is the Corbynsceptic bloc of 40% or so looking at Starmer. Not yet in the bag for RLB, I think, especially with the new members pouring in to influence the outcome one way or the other.

    https://labourlist.org/2019/12/everything-to-play-for-as-labours-leadership-contests-unfold/

    Thanks for the link Nick.

    Not as clear cut for RLB as some might have imagined. Perhaps the reason for the pact with Rayner?

    5.7% for Diane Abbott. Ahead of Cooper, Nandy and Thornberry. Amazing.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,050
    edited December 2019
    It's touching that the faithful believe Johnson won dazzling new concessions rather than the reality of having gone back on key demands previously fundamental to his negotiating position, but then again that's testament to the power of presentation, I suppose.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965
    Byronic said:

    alterego said:

    algarkirk said:

    Is there any evidence that RLB is or is not a Marxist? Or indeed whether she is on record as supporting our enemies?

    Evidence? I don't recall seeing any evidence but we know the Corbyn cohort think highly of her and are, everso gently, promoting her, so I suspect that is a fair indication, if not of Marxism then something to the wide left of central.
    Google says she is a practising Catholic, which might temper any hard leftwingery. Other than that she is rather opaque. A bit Green, a bit right-on...
    RLB and JRM taking communion together. There's a thought.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873

    eek said:

    alterego said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    alex_ said:

    Good morning

    This conservative is not grumpy and delighted the ordinary people rose up against the elite and those wanting to stop the democratic vote to leave, even though I voted remain

    And judging by the posts this morning, so many are still fighting the lost battle to remain or are actively hoping the country fails

    I am made of sterner stuff and see a promising future and am not the least negative

    Have a good day folks

    There was a time when you quit the Tory Party over a threat to leave the EU without a trade deal in place. Has your son got a new job?

    Airbus has committed to the UK no matter what happens to the negotiations and if you check all the constituencies around the Airbus North Wales factory turned blue apart from Alyn and Deeside which was held by labour with a 213 majority

    It is time for everyone to accept Brexit is happening or just be in a permanent state of depression
    Who doesn't accept that Brexit is happening ?

    Tories seem to have adopted the strange idea that because they won an election, anything they do is now beyond criticism.
    Our opponents seem to have adopted the strange idea that because we won an election, anything we do in our manifesto has no authority.

    It will serve you well no doubt for the next five years.

    And the next five.

    And the next five......
    Was there much in the manifesto?
    Not extending the transition period was in the manifesto. So all the faux shock and horror that the Tory manifesto pledge is being honoured is a bit . . . strange.
    In bold text on page 5: we will not extend the implementation period beyond December 2020.
    Doesnt need a law to ensure that.
    Good politics though? It's certainly rattled a few cages on here.
    Only because we think it's backing himself into a corner - it's almost like Boris was given a gun from the election result and he's already shot himself in the leg.
    How is implementing his number one manifesto promise shooting himself in the leg?
    Depends if that number one promise hurts him or not.
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100
    kle4 said:

    alterego said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    alex_ said:

    Good morning

    This conservative is not grumpy and delighted the ordinary people rose up against the elite and those wanting to stop the democratic vote to leave, even though I voted remain

    And judging by the posts this morning, so many are still fighting the lost battle to remain or are actively hoping the country fails

    I am made of sterner stuff and see a promising future and am not the least negative

    Have a good day folks

    There was a time when you quit the Tory Party over a threat to leave the EU without a trade deal in place. Has your son got a new job?

    Airbus has committed to the UK no matter what happens to the negotiations and if you check all the constituencies around the Airbus North Wales factory turned blue apart from Alyn and Deeside which was held by labour with a 213 majority

    It is time for everyone to accept Brexit is happening or just be in a permanent state of depression
    Who doesn't accept that Brexit is happening ?

    Tories seem to have adopted the strange idea that because they won an election, anything they do is now beyond criticism.
    Our opponents seem to have adopted the strange idea that because we won an election, anything we do in our manifesto has no authority.

    It will serve you well no doubt for the next five years.

    And the next five.

    And the next five......
    Was there much in the manifesto?
    Not extending the transition period was in the manifesto. So all the faux shock and horror that the Tory manifesto pledge is being honoured is a bit . . . strange.
    In bold text on page 5: we will not extend the implementation period beyond December 2020.
    Doesnt need a law to ensure that.
    Good politics though? It's certainly rattled a few cages on here.
    Assuring the base does seem the intent.
    New base?
  • That newly-elected Lib Dem MP who hasn't even been sworn in yet to Parliament was just on Sky "not ruling [herself] out" of running for Lib Dem leader and saying "yes" the next Lib Dem leader should be a woman.

    This sort of tokenism is absurd. If she or another candidate should be leader it should be because they are the best candidate, not have the right sort of genitalia. If Ed Davey is the best candidate he shouldn't be ruled out because he has the wrong sort of genitalia.

    I somewhat suspect Swinson beat Davey last time because of the members aversion to anyone with a Y-chromosome being leader. But I also suspect Davey wouldn't have lost his seat at the election and wouldn't have led the Lib Dems to the net loss of MPs at the election. Maybe Swinson herself would still be an MP if Davey had won!
  • Pulpstar said:

    Topped up on Starmer a bit, laid Nandy. Can't work out why she is 2nd favourite.

    I think it'll be Long Bailey vs Starmer with Long Bailey winning.

    Nandy is second favourite because she said she will run. Most of the likely runners have yet to declare (and Nandy could change her mind).
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100

    Wrong-Daily worries me. She could be as dangerous as Corbyn but superficially more popular. I hope not.

    Reminiscent of the SNP leadership change?
  • eek said:

    alterego said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    alex_ said:

    Good morning

    This conservative is not grumpy and delighted the ordinary people rose up against the elite and those wanting to stop the democratic vote to leave, even though I voted remain

    And judging by the posts this morning, so many are still fighting the lost battle to remain or are actively hoping the country fails

    I am made of sterner stuff and see a promising future and am not the least negative

    Have a good day folks

    There was a time when you quit the Tory Party over a threat to leave the EU without a trade deal in place. Has your son got a new job?

    Airbus has committed to the UK no matter what happens to the negotiations and if you check all the constituencies around the Airbus North Wales factory turned blue apart from Alyn and Deeside which was held by labour with a 213 majority

    It is time for everyone to accept Brexit is happening or just be in a permanent state of depression
    Who doesn't accept that Brexit is happening ?

    Tories seem to have adopted the strange idea that because they won an election, anything they do is now beyond criticism.
    Our opponents seem to have adopted the strange idea that because we won an election, anything we do in our manifesto has no authority.

    It will serve you well no doubt for the next five years.

    And the next five.

    And the next five......
    Was there much in the manifesto?
    Not extending the transition period was in the manifesto. So all the faux shock and horror that the Tory manifesto pledge is being honoured is a bit . . . strange.
    In bold text on page 5: we will not extend the implementation period beyond December 2020.
    Doesnt need a law to ensure that.
    Good politics though? It's certainly rattled a few cages on here.
    Only because we think it's backing himself into a corner - it's almost like Boris was given a gun from the election result and he's already shot himself in the leg.
    How is implementing his number one manifesto promise shooting himself in the leg?
    If we No Deal then Johnson will spend the final four years of his premiership firefighting the economic chaos. So not a good idea to box himself in.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344

    That newly-elected Lib Dem MP who hasn't even been sworn in yet to Parliament was just on Sky "not ruling [herself] out" of running for Lib Dem leader and saying "yes" the next Lib Dem leader should be a woman.

    This sort of tokenism is absurd. If she or another candidate should be leader it should be because they are the best candidate, not have the right sort of genitalia. If Ed Davey is the best candidate he shouldn't be ruled out because he has the wrong sort of genitalia.

    I somewhat suspect Swinson beat Davey last time because of the members aversion to anyone with a Y-chromosome being leader. But I also suspect Davey wouldn't have lost his seat at the election and wouldn't have led the Lib Dems to the net loss of MPs at the election. Maybe Swinson herself would still be an MP if Davey had won!

    Agree. When Davey was on the box he came across well. And he could, and did, defend his time as a Minister, because he did a reasonable job on Energy.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828

    That newly-elected Lib Dem MP who hasn't even been sworn in yet to Parliament was just on Sky "not ruling [herself] out" of running for Lib Dem leader and saying "yes" the next Lib Dem leader should be a woman.

    This sort of tokenism is absurd. If she or another candidate should be leader it should be because they are the best candidate, not have the right sort of genitalia. If Ed Davey is the best candidate he shouldn't be ruled out because he has the wrong sort of genitalia.

    I somewhat suspect Swinson beat Davey last time because of the members aversion to anyone with a Y-chromosome being leader. But I also suspect Davey wouldn't have lost his seat at the election and wouldn't have led the Lib Dems to the net loss of MPs at the election. Maybe Swinson herself would still be an MP if Davey had won!

    Surely the next leader has to be a man to ensure balance? :)
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Interesting data

    Labour lost in all income brackets. Lost horribly with households earning 20k-40k.

    https://twitter.com/p_surridge/status/1206887621437403136?s=20
  • camelcamel Posts: 815

    eek said:

    eek said:

    "Can the Tories deepen shallow roots in the North East?"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50820302

    There's an interesting difference between now Conservative dominated Teesside and Tyneside with its still total Labour domination.

    I have a theory that conurbations of towns such as Teeside (and likewise the Potteries, the Black Country and the Bournemouth-Poole-Christchurch area) are different to conurbations based around a single big city.
    Areas with urban blight but without the swanky city centre and its associated glass-fronted offices.
    Teesside, the Potteries, the Black Country and even Bournemouth just don't have the critical mass that a city (even Newcastle) does.

    Once upon a time I would have said the issue was transport links but that's definitely not the case in Darlington as it has a Motorway, mainline rail services and an airport.
    Michael Porter in the Competitive Advantage of Nations states that the biggest gains come from the virtuous circle of having multiple competitors in the same area. So I suspect it's a critical mass issue
    It's often the case in retail circles that two or three similar shops in the same area result in more trade for each. Depends on the type of business, of course.
    Teeside, the Potteries,the Black country and Bournemouth may be urban, but they are not metropolitan. Metropolitan for me is an area with the ability to attract students from elsewhere and retain them after graduation.
  • Interesting discussion on the thread this morning. Like Paristonda, I think Johnson will get a bare-bones deal through, which may be sub-optimal financially but that plays second fiddle to politics for him. A Conservative friend expresses mild concern about the talk of far-reaching constitutional change (and that was before this morning's talk of scrapping the current laws), but here again I think the primacy of politics for Johnson shows through.

    Is the Lords difficult? Let's scrap them. Are the BBC unhelpful? Let's dump the licence fee. Are the courts obstructive? Let's reduce their power. It's a pattern.

    On the Labour side, an interesting article for punters by the Labour List editor, who usually has a very good feeling for the party pulse - the poll is also likely to be pretty accurate as the blog reaches all parts of the party. The RLB bandwagon is evident, as is the Corbynsceptic bloc of 40% or so looking at Starmer. Not yet in the bag for RLB, I think, especially with the new members pouring in to influence the outcome one way or the other.

    https://labourlist.org/2019/12/everything-to-play-for-as-labours-leadership-contests-unfold/

    Thanks for the link Nick.

    Not as clear cut for RLB as some might have imagined. Perhaps the reason for the pact with Rayner?

    5.7% for Diane Abbott. Ahead of Cooper, Nandy and Thornberry. Amazing.
    Cambridge! Abbott probably gains nostalgic backing as in her day she was far sharper than she seems now.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    Byronic said:

    alterego said:

    algarkirk said:

    Is there any evidence that RLB is or is not a Marxist? Or indeed whether she is on record as supporting our enemies?

    Evidence? I don't recall seeing any evidence but we know the Corbyn cohort think highly of her and are, everso gently, promoting her, so I suspect that is a fair indication, if not of Marxism then something to the wide left of central.
    Google says she is a practising Catholic, which might temper any hard leftwingery. Other than that she is rather opaque. A bit Green, a bit right-on...
    I get that "taking her whip from Rome", to paraphrase the other prominent Catholic in the Commons, might push her rightwards on social issues (although I bet it doesn't), but does it say much about her economic positions? As far as I can tell, she's Continuity McDonnell in that arena.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    Hey, at least he waited for the exit poll. No sense in loyalty to a discredited leader.
  • alterego said:
    For Oxford? Well, obviously it's missing the towering intellects of Abbott and Burgon that Cambridge can boast!
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Endillion said:

    Byronic said:

    alterego said:

    algarkirk said:

    Is there any evidence that RLB is or is not a Marxist? Or indeed whether she is on record as supporting our enemies?

    Evidence? I don't recall seeing any evidence but we know the Corbyn cohort think highly of her and are, everso gently, promoting her, so I suspect that is a fair indication, if not of Marxism then something to the wide left of central.
    Google says she is a practising Catholic, which might temper any hard leftwingery. Other than that she is rather opaque. A bit Green, a bit right-on...
    I get that "taking her whip from Rome", to paraphrase the other prominent Catholic in the Commons, might push her rightwards on social issues (although I bet it doesn't), but does it say much about her economic positions? As far as I can tell, she's Continuity McDonnell in that arena.
    I'm just guessing. A glimpse at her voting record gives little away. She comes across as mainstream left, not hard left, so I am not yet sure why Corbs and McD are so keen on her
  • Are all Cabinet meetings like this or had someone tipped off Boris's script-writer that the cameras would be there?
  • kle4 said:

    Hey, at least he waited for the exit poll. No sense in loyalty to a discredited leader.
    He also waited for the first seats to confirm the exit poll.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    I'm finding it hard to reconcile the above data, where Labour lost in all income brackets, with the below data, which shows they won easily in all age groups up to 50

    https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1206896958499164161?s=20

  • camelcamel Posts: 815

    Are all Cabinet meetings like this or had someone tipped off Boris's script-writer that the cameras would be there?
    This amazing, unchallenged assertion that 'the people' 'lent' their votes to the tories. To increase their share by 1%.
  • kle4 said:

    Hey, at least he waited for the exit poll. No sense in loyalty to a discredited leader.
    He also waited for the first seats to confirm the exit poll.
    The domain is parked so there is no evidence of any planning whatsoever, or even that it is connected with Starmer himself though that is the obvious suspicion. Registering a domain takes a couple of minutes. It is the content that takes longer.
  • camel said:

    Are all Cabinet meetings like this or had someone tipped off Boris's script-writer that the cameras would be there?
    This amazing, unchallenged assertion that 'the people' 'lent' their votes to the tories. To increase their share by 1%.
    That's an incredibly big increase! Especially considering the baseline.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828
    Celebrating unemployment being up again?... he almost gave the game away :o
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828
    camel said:

    Are all Cabinet meetings like this or had someone tipped off Boris's script-writer that the cameras would be there?
    This amazing, unchallenged assertion that 'the people' 'lent' their votes to the tories. To increase their share by 1%.
    Almost 44%. I remember the days when people on here were saying the Tories would never win a majority again, and now we are approaching a majority of the votes. ;)
  • Byronic said:

    I'm finding it hard to reconcile the above data, where Labour lost in all income brackets, with the below data, which shows they won easily in all age groups up to 50

    https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1206896958499164161?s=20

    Turnout MUCH higher in over 50s, maybe?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    camel said:

    Are all Cabinet meetings like this or had someone tipped off Boris's script-writer that the cameras would be there?
    This amazing, unchallenged assertion that 'the people' 'lent' their votes to the tories. To increase their share by 1%.
    It means in certain areas. It's just about showing ex lab voters they are not being taken for granted.
  • Byronic said:

    Endillion said:

    Byronic said:

    alterego said:

    algarkirk said:

    Is there any evidence that RLB is or is not a Marxist? Or indeed whether she is on record as supporting our enemies?

    Evidence? I don't recall seeing any evidence but we know the Corbyn cohort think highly of her and are, everso gently, promoting her, so I suspect that is a fair indication, if not of Marxism then something to the wide left of central.
    Google says she is a practising Catholic, which might temper any hard leftwingery. Other than that she is rather opaque. A bit Green, a bit right-on...
    I get that "taking her whip from Rome", to paraphrase the other prominent Catholic in the Commons, might push her rightwards on social issues (although I bet it doesn't), but does it say much about her economic positions? As far as I can tell, she's Continuity McDonnell in that arena.
    I'm just guessing. A glimpse at her voting record gives little away. She comes across as mainstream left, not hard left, so I am not yet sure why Corbs and McD are so keen on her
    Wasn't Corbyn said to favour Laura Pidcock, who lost her seat?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828

    Byronic said:

    Endillion said:

    Byronic said:

    alterego said:

    algarkirk said:

    Is there any evidence that RLB is or is not a Marxist? Or indeed whether she is on record as supporting our enemies?

    Evidence? I don't recall seeing any evidence but we know the Corbyn cohort think highly of her and are, everso gently, promoting her, so I suspect that is a fair indication, if not of Marxism then something to the wide left of central.
    Google says she is a practising Catholic, which might temper any hard leftwingery. Other than that she is rather opaque. A bit Green, a bit right-on...
    I get that "taking her whip from Rome", to paraphrase the other prominent Catholic in the Commons, might push her rightwards on social issues (although I bet it doesn't), but does it say much about her economic positions? As far as I can tell, she's Continuity McDonnell in that arena.
    I'm just guessing. A glimpse at her voting record gives little away. She comes across as mainstream left, not hard left, so I am not yet sure why Corbs and McD are so keen on her
    Wasn't Corbyn said to favour Laura Pidcock, who lost her seat?
    The nation dodged a bullet there.
  • alterego said:
    For Oxford? Well, obviously it's missing the towering intellects of Abbott and Burgon that Cambridge can boast!
    I appreciate your squeamishness about mentioning David Lammy and towering intellect in the same sentence but on this occasion it would have been pardonable.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Byronic said:

    I'm finding it hard to reconcile the above data, where Labour lost in all income brackets, with the below data, which shows they won easily in all age groups up to 50

    https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1206896958499164161?s=20

    Turnout MUCH higher in over 50s, maybe?
    It would have to be enormously higher, no?

    Or is my withered brain missing something obvious?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,141
    Byronic said:

    I'm finding it hard to reconcile the above data, where Labour lost in all income brackets, with the below data, which shows they won easily in all age groups up to 50

    https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1206896958499164161?s=20

    The Conservative won by 6%, among voters aged 40-49, a key shift from 2017. 39 was the age at which people became more likely to vote Conservative than Labour, compared to 47 in 2017.
  • 'Sir, sir, please, sir, are the priorities of the British people getting Brexit done?'

    'Yes Master Divvie, but what are the others?'

    'Er...'
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Sean_F said:

    Byronic said:

    I'm finding it hard to reconcile the above data, where Labour lost in all income brackets, with the below data, which shows they won easily in all age groups up to 50

    https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1206896958499164161?s=20

    The Conservative won by 6%, among voters aged 40-49, a key shift from 2017. 39 was the age at which people became more likely to vote Conservative than Labour, compared to 47 in 2017.
    Ah OK, that clarifies things somewhat
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,172
    edited December 2019
    Byronic: a lot more voters over 50 than below, and much higher turnout. There are hardly any voters in the 18-24 age group compared to the other age groups.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    edited December 2019
    Nigelb said:

    alex_ said:
    It is time for everyone to accept Brexit is happening or just be in a permanent state of depression
    Who doesn't accept that Brexit is happening ?

    Tories seem to have adopted the strange idea that because they won an election, anything they do is now beyond criticism.
    Well said. It’s worse, though. They seem to think that it is an impertinence for anyone even to ask them how they intend doing what they are promising. It is hubristic and will inevitably lead to trouble, no matter how often they talk about having been “lent” Labour votes.
    Pulpstar said:

    @Paristonda You may well be correct - Fish and Financial services could be the big sacrifices to get perhaps tarriff free trading. North East Scotland, Great Grimsby and the rest of inner London (Bar Fulham and Chelsea) could swing back back to Labour/the SNP next election.

    Indeed. And no-one has yet explained how all the spending promises will be paid for if one of the biggest tax revenue earning sectors is sacrificed. It was a legitimate question to ask Labour and it is a legitimate question to ask the Tories.
    Endillion said:

    Byronic said:

    alterego said:

    algarkirk said:

    Is there any evidence that RLB is or is not a Marxist?

    Google says she is a practising Catholic, which might temper any hard leftwingery. Other than that she is rather opaque. A bit Green, a bit right-on...
    I get that "taking her whip from Rome", to paraphrase the other prominent Catholic in the Commons, might push her rightwards on social issues (although I bet it doesn't), but does it say much about her economic positions? As far as I can tell, she's Continuity McDonnell in that arena.
    McDonnell nearly trained to be a Catholic priest. Don’t assume that being religious makes one sensible or moderate. She’s Corbyn with breasts. Why do you think she’s been so heavily promoted by him and McDonnell.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,141
    edited December 2019
    In fact, a remarkably comprehensive victory for the Conservatives. They led among full time workers, part-time workers, the retired, while only trailing with the unemployed and students. They led among the rich, people on average incomes, and the poor.
  • Byronic said:

    I'm finding it hard to reconcile the above data, where Labour lost in all income brackets, with the below data, which shows they won easily in all age groups up to 50

    https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1206896958499164161?s=20

    18-24 is a tiny age group, it doesn't mean that much. They didn't win that easily in 25-49 (which is a farcically wide age range).

    A 5 point lead for Lab in men in 25-49 is not very much. Not when compared to a 26% lead for Tories in 50-64 or a 49% lead in 65+

    A 13% lead for Lab in women 25-49 is better, but still pretty poor when compared to a 22% lead for Tories in 50-64 or a 48% lead in 65+

    Basically Lab got tiny leads amongst the young which is quite poor for them and Tories got stonkingly massive leads amongst the middle aged and elderly.
  • Cyclefree said:


    Nigelb said:

    alex_ said:
    It is time for everyone to accept Brexit is happening or just be in a permanent state of depression
    Who doesn't accept that Brexit is happening ?

    Tories seem to have adopted the strange idea that because they won an election, anything they do is now beyond criticism.
    Well said. It’s worse, though. They seem to think that it is an impertinence for anyone even to ask them how they intend doing what they are promising. It is hubristic and will inevitably lead to trouble, no matter how often they talk about having been “lent” Labour votes.
    Pulpstar said:

    @Paristonda You may well be correct - Fish and Financial services could be the big sacrifices to get perhaps tarriff free trading. North East Scotland, Great Grimsby and the rest of inner London (Bar Fulham and Chelsea) could swing back back to Labour/the SNP next election.

    Indeed. And no-one has yet explained how all the spending promises will be paid for if one of the biggest tax revenue earning sectors is sacrificed. It was a legitimate question to ask Labour and it is a legitimate question to ask the Tories.
    Endillion said:

    Byronic said:

    alterego said:

    algarkirk said:

    Is there any evidence that RLB is or is not a Marxist?

    Google says she is a practising Catholic, which might temper any hard leftwingery. Other than that she is rather opaque. A bit Green, a bit right-on...
    I get that "taking her whip from Rome", to paraphrase the other prominent Catholic in the Commons, might push her rightwards on social issues (although I bet it doesn't), but does it say much about her economic positions? As far as I can tell, she's Continuity McDonnell in that arena.
    McDonnell nearly trained to be a Catholic priest. Don’t assume that being religious makes one sensible or moderate. She’s Corbyn with breasts. Why do you think she’s been so heavily promoted by him and McDonnell.

    Stalin also trained for the priesthood of course.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    edited December 2019
    Byronic said:

    I'm finding it hard to reconcile the above data, where Labour lost in all income brackets, with the below data, which shows they won easily in all age groups up to 50

    twitter.com/sundersays/status/1206896958499164161?s=20

    We saw lots of polls during the campaign where Tories were miles ahead with men and only neck and neck with woman. Clearly there is a shy lady Tory vote.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    Byronic said:

    Endillion said:

    Byronic said:

    alterego said:

    algarkirk said:

    Is there any evidence that RLB is or is not a Marxist? Or indeed whether she is on record as supporting our enemies?

    Evidence? I don't recall seeing any evidence but we know the Corbyn cohort think highly of her and are, everso gently, promoting her, so I suspect that is a fair indication, if not of Marxism then something to the wide left of central.
    Google says she is a practising Catholic, which might temper any hard leftwingery. Other than that she is rather opaque. A bit Green, a bit right-on...
    I get that "taking her whip from Rome", to paraphrase the other prominent Catholic in the Commons, might push her rightwards on social issues (although I bet it doesn't), but does it say much about her economic positions? As far as I can tell, she's Continuity McDonnell in that arena.
    I'm just guessing. A glimpse at her voting record gives little away. She comes across as mainstream left, not hard left, so I am not yet sure why Corbs and McD are so keen on her
    If the advisors and other key background people remain the same, you get the same policies and the same control over the party. Is there any evidence that she has ever had or uttered any independent thought? Until we see evidence otherwise, it is safe to assume that with her you will get continuity Corbynism.
  • Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    I'm finding it hard to reconcile the above data, where Labour lost in all income brackets, with the below data, which shows they won easily in all age groups up to 50

    https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1206896958499164161?s=20

    Turnout MUCH higher in over 50s, maybe?
    It would have to be enormously higher, no?

    Or is my withered brain missing something obvious?
    No. Even if turnout was identical across all age groups the Tories would still have had a massive lead. There simply aren't that many aged 18-24 which is the only group that Lab had a large lead in. The lead for Lab in 25-49 is quite small compared to the middle aged and elderly bands.
  • Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    I'm finding it hard to reconcile the above data, where Labour lost in all income brackets, with the below data, which shows they won easily in all age groups up to 50

    https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1206896958499164161?s=20

    Turnout MUCH higher in over 50s, maybe?
    It would have to be enormously higher, no?

    Or is my withered brain missing something obvious?
    No. Even if turnout was identical across all age groups the Tories would still have had a massive lead. There simply aren't that many aged 18-24 which is the only group that Lab had a large lead in. The lead for Lab in 25-49 is quite small compared to the middle aged and elderly bands.
    If the Tories came up with some sensible stuff on things like student loan repayment and housing, they could probably do even better.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    I'm finding it hard to reconcile the above data, where Labour lost in all income brackets, with the below data, which shows they won easily in all age groups up to 50

    https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1206896958499164161?s=20

    Turnout MUCH higher in over 50s, maybe?
    It would have to be enormously higher, no?

    Or is my withered brain missing something obvious?
    No. Even if turnout was identical across all age groups the Tories would still have had a massive lead. There simply aren't that many aged 18-24 which is the only group that Lab had a large lead in. The lead for Lab in 25-49 is quite small compared to the middle aged and elderly bands.
    If the Tories came up with some sensible stuff on things like student loan repayment and housing, they could probably do even better.
    Here's hoping.
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,017

    algarkirk said:

    Is there any evidence that RLB is or is not a Marxist? Or indeed whether she is on record as supporting our enemies?

    She supported Corbyn. Does that count?
    Say all the cheerleaders for Putin's biggest strategic foreign policy win...
  • Sean_F said:

    In fact, a remarkably comprehensive victory for the Conservatives. They led among full time workers, part-time workers, the retired, while only trailing with the unemployed and students. They led among the rich, people on average incomes, and the poor.

    Just us pesky Jocks peeing on their/your chips..
  • camelcamel Posts: 815
    Cyclefree said:

    Byronic said:

    Endillion said:

    Byronic said:

    alterego said:

    algarkirk said:

    Is there any evidence that RLB is or is not a Marxist? Or indeed whether she is on record as supporting our enemies?

    Evidence? I don't recall seeing any evidence but we know the Corbyn cohort think highly of her and are, everso gently, promoting her, so I suspect that is a fair indication, if not of Marxism then something to the wide left of central.
    Google says she is a practising Catholic, which might temper any hard leftwingery. Other than that she is rather opaque. A bit Green, a bit right-on...
    I get that "taking her whip from Rome", to paraphrase the other prominent Catholic in the Commons, might push her rightwards on social issues (although I bet it doesn't), but does it say much about her economic positions? As far as I can tell, she's Continuity McDonnell in that arena.
    I'm just guessing. A glimpse at her voting record gives little away. She comes across as mainstream left, not hard left, so I am not yet sure why Corbs and McD are so keen on her
    If the advisors and other key background people remain the same, you get the same policies and the same control over the party. Is there any evidence that she has ever had or uttered any independent thought? Until we see evidence otherwise, it is safe to assume that with her you will get continuity Corbynism.
    I expect the term 'Corbynist' to be widely used by the tories over the next 5 years. The tories have never had a good bogeyman to refer back to, Blair being mainly a nemesis of the left.
  • camel said:

    Are all Cabinet meetings like this or had someone tipped off Boris's script-writer that the cameras would be there?
    This amazing, unchallenged assertion that 'the people' 'lent' their votes to the tories. To increase their share by 1%.
    Which other fourth term governments have done that?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    edited December 2019
    camel said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Byronic said:

    Endillion said:

    Byronic said:

    alterego said:

    algarkirk said:

    Is there any evidence that RLB is or is not a Marxist? Or indeed whether she is on record as supporting our enemies?

    Evidence? I don't recall seeing any evidence but we know the Corbyn cohort think highly of her and are, everso gently, promoting her, so I suspect that is a fair indication, if not of Marxism then something to the wide left of central.
    Google says she is a practising Catholic, which might temper any hard leftwingery. Other than that she is rather opaque. A bit Green, a bit right-on...
    I get that "taking her whip from Rome", to paraphrase the other prominent Catholic in the Commons, might push her rightwards on social issues (although I bet it doesn't), but does it say much about her economic positions? As far as I can tell, she's Continuity McDonnell in that arena.
    I'm just guessing. A glimpse at her voting record gives little away. She comes across as mainstream left, not hard left, so I am not yet sure why Corbs and McD are so keen on her
    If the advisors and other key background people remain the same, you get the same policies and the same control over the party. Is there any evidence that she has ever had or uttered any independent thought? Until we see evidence otherwise, it is safe to assume that with her you will get continuity Corbynism.
    I expect the term 'Corbynist' to be widely used by the tories over the next 5 years. The tories have never had a good bogeyman to refer back to, Blair being mainly a nemesis of the left.
    I wonder if the Tories will keep on the services of the folk from down under. They seem to be very effective at working out the correct messaging.
  • Sean_F said:

    In fact, a remarkably comprehensive victory for the Conservatives. They led among full time workers, part-time workers, the retired, while only trailing with the unemployed and students. They led among the rich, people on average incomes, and the poor.

    Just us pesky Jocks peeing on their/your chips..
    It's fine. You guys like the Northern Irish can be safely ignored for the next few years. You have devolution just go about minding your own business and we can mind ours.

    Maybe next generation there'll be a hung Parliament or Lab victory where your MPs matter.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,362

    Sean_F said:

    In fact, a remarkably comprehensive victory for the Conservatives. They led among full time workers, part-time workers, the retired, while only trailing with the unemployed and students. They led among the rich, people on average incomes, and the poor.

    Just us pesky Jocks peeing on their/your chips..
    We've got five years to take a dump on your fish supper.....
  • glwglw Posts: 9,871
    edited December 2019

    Anyhoo by the end of her life Thatcher considered herself more of a Cambridge lady after the shameful way Oxford treated her as PM.

    Pah! Margaret Thatcher appeared on RT. She was very much the Jeremy Corbyn of her day. Or possibly going on foreign telly was not seen as treason back then.
    It depends on when you went on and what you were talking about.

    There was a period from the mid 80s to the early 2000s when it looked like Russia was going in the right direction; opening up, becoming more democratic, and no longer agressively opposed to the West. So if you went on RT to talk about say economics in the 90s, that would be entirely different from going on there today and talking about something like Russia's claim to Crimea.
  • Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    I'm finding it hard to reconcile the above data, where Labour lost in all income brackets, with the below data, which shows they won easily in all age groups up to 50

    https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1206896958499164161?s=20

    Turnout MUCH higher in over 50s, maybe?
    It would have to be enormously higher, no?

    Or is my withered brain missing something obvious?
    No. Even if turnout was identical across all age groups the Tories would still have had a massive lead. There simply aren't that many aged 18-24 which is the only group that Lab had a large lead in. The lead for Lab in 25-49 is quite small compared to the middle aged and elderly bands.
    If the Tories came up with some sensible stuff on things like student loan repayment and housing, they could probably do even better.
    That's an excellent idea.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    Two things were behind the Tory victory:-

    1. Fear/dislike of Corbyn’s Labour.
    2. Wanting to get Brexit over with.

    What happens at the next election will depend on how much 1 is still a factor and on how 2 has been implemented and whether it has harmed the economy or those parts of it on whose votes the Tories will depend.

    Labour currently looks as if it intends being helpful to the Tories re 1.

    On 2 the Tories are hoping that bunging money at their new voters will see them through. They are less clear on (a) how Brexit and these supposed new FTAs will help (@HYUFD made a fool of himself on the previous thread re US FTAs and financial services) and (b) if not, where the money to pay for all these goodies will come from.

    Incidentally, I do hope that the government is successful in doing something positive for areas of the country which have been neglected. It is long overdue. It will be fascinating to watch. But it is not going to stop me asking questions about what they are up to and whether they will keep their promises.

    And if PB Tories don’t like it, too bad. We don’t live in a one party state and no-one is or should think themselves beyond challenge.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,362

    Byronic said:

    I'm finding it hard to reconcile the above data, where Labour lost in all income brackets, with the below data, which shows they won easily in all age groups up to 50

    twitter.com/sundersays/status/1206896958499164161?s=20

    We saw lots of polls during the campaign where Tories were miles ahead with men and only neck and neck with woman. Clearly there is a shy lady Tory vote.
    Clearly there is an unimpressed with the lying, cheating Lothario reminds-me-of-my-ex-husband Boris the utter bastard lady vote. As you'd know, if you did any canvassing....

    It might wane - if he is a good boy for five years.
  • camel said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Byronic said:

    Endillion said:

    Byronic said:

    alterego said:

    algarkirk said:

    Is there any evidence that RLB is or is not a Marxist? Or indeed whether she is on record as supporting our enemies?

    Evidence? I don't recall seeing any evidence but we know the Corbyn cohort think highly of her and are, everso gently, promoting her, so I suspect that is a fair indication, if not of Marxism then something to the wide left of central.
    Google says she is a practising Catholic, which might temper any hard leftwingery. Other than that she is rather opaque. A bit Green, a bit right-on...
    I get that "taking her whip from Rome", to paraphrase the other prominent Catholic in the Commons, might push her rightwards on social issues (although I bet it doesn't), but does it say much about her economic positions? As far as I can tell, she's Continuity McDonnell in that arena.
    I'm just guessing. A glimpse at her voting record gives little away. She comes across as mainstream left, not hard left, so I am not yet sure why Corbs and McD are so keen on her
    If the advisors and other key background people remain the same, you get the same policies and the same control over the party. Is there any evidence that she has ever had or uttered any independent thought? Until we see evidence otherwise, it is safe to assume that with her you will get continuity Corbynism.
    I expect the term 'Corbynist' to be widely used by the tories over the next 5 years. The tories have never had a good bogeyman to refer back to, Blair being mainly a nemesis of the left.
    I wonder if the Tories will keep on the services of the folk from down under. They seem to be very effective at working out the correct messaging.
    Effective messaging. Correct implies legal, decent, honest and truthful and there have already been doubts raised about that.

  • It's fine. You guys like the Northern Irish can be safely ignored for the next few years. You have devolution just go about minding your own business and we can mind ours.

    Maybe next generation there'll be a hung Parliament or Lab victory where your MPs matter.


    We've got five years to take a dump on your fish supper.....

    Ignoring us or taking a dump on us, some discord in the BJorg ranks?

    I must say Tories taking a dump on Scotland seems more familiar.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Two things were behind the Tory victory:-

    1. Fear/dislike of Corbyn’s Labour.
    2. Wanting to get Brexit over with.

    What happens at the next election will depend on how much 1 is still a factor and on how 2 has been implemented and whether it has harmed the economy or those parts of it on whose votes the Tories will depend.

    Labour currently looks as if it intends being helpful to the Tories re 1.

    On 2 the Tories are hoping that bunging money at their new voters will see them through. They are less clear on (a) how Brexit and these supposed new FTAs will help (@HYUFD made a fool of himself on the previous thread re US FTAs and financial services) and (b) if not, where the money to pay for all these goodies will come from.

    Incidentally, I do hope that the government is successful in doing something positive for areas of the country which have been neglected. It is long overdue. It will be fascinating to watch. But it is not going to stop me asking questions about what they are up to and whether they will keep their promises.

    And if PB Tories don’t like it, too bad. We don’t live in a one party state and no-one is or should think themselves beyond challenge.

    I for one do like it. The country and good governance needs rigorous questioning and if it's not coming Labour and the Lib Dems then it should be welcomed from other sources.

    But in a reciprocal sense of fairness if the answers to your questions are better from the Tories than other sources then I would hope you reward them with your vote next time.
  • camelcamel Posts: 815

    camel said:

    Are all Cabinet meetings like this or had someone tipped off Boris's script-writer that the cameras would be there?
    This amazing, unchallenged assertion that 'the people' 'lent' their votes to the tories. To increase their share by 1%.
    Which other fourth term governments have done that?
    I would posit that the story of the election was 2017 labour voters 'lending' their votes to other parties.

    Nevertheless you are right, it was an effective 4th term strategy. Unprecedented.
  • Byronic said:

    I'm finding it hard to reconcile the above data, where Labour lost in all income brackets, with the below data, which shows they won easily in all age groups up to 50

    twitter.com/sundersays/status/1206896958499164161?s=20

    We saw lots of polls during the campaign where Tories were miles ahead with men and only neck and neck with woman. Clearly there is a shy lady Tory vote.
    Clearly there is an unimpressed with the lying, cheating Lothario reminds-me-of-my-ex-husband Boris the utter bastard lady vote. As you'd know, if you did any canvassing....

    It might wane - if he is a good boy for five years.
    It clearly wasn't quite as big as factor on the day though. But yes I don't doubt it is an issue. Your comment is very similar to what a friend of mine said to me. The non-answer about how many kids really pissed her off, because it reminded her of her ex-husband inability to man up and do the right thing and provide for their child.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,362


    It's fine. You guys like the Northern Irish can be safely ignored for the next few years. You have devolution just go about minding your own business and we can mind ours.

    Maybe next generation there'll be a hung Parliament or Lab victory where your MPs matter.


    We've got five years to take a dump on your fish supper.....

    Ignoring us or taking a dump on us, some discord in the BJorg ranks?

    I must say Tories taking a dump on Scotland seems more familiar.
    Thought you would. But then, if you're gleefully going to piss on our chips.....expect it to be returned, with interest.

  • It's fine. You guys like the Northern Irish can be safely ignored for the next few years. You have devolution just go about minding your own business and we can mind ours.

    Maybe next generation there'll be a hung Parliament or Lab victory where your MPs matter.


    We've got five years to take a dump on your fish supper.....

    Ignoring us or taking a dump on us, some discord in the BJorg ranks?

    I must say Tories taking a dump on Scotland seems more familiar.
    I speak for myself not anybody else.

    If the Scots get ignored until there's a hung parliament then vote for independence under a Labour PM then that is probably my dream scenario.
  • camel said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Byronic said:

    Endillion said:

    Byronic said:

    alterego said:

    algarkirk said:

    Is there any evidence that RLB is or is not a Marxist? Or indeed whether she is on record as supporting our enemies?

    Evidence? I don't recall seeing any evidence but we know the Corbyn cohort think highly of her and are, everso gently, promoting her, so I suspect that is a fair indication, if not of Marxism then something to the wide left of central.
    Google says she is a practising Catholic, which might temper any hard leftwingery. Other than that she is rather opaque. A bit Green, a bit right-on...
    I get that "taking her whip from Rome", to paraphrase the other prominent Catholic in the Commons, might push her rightwards on social issues (although I bet it doesn't), but does it say much about her economic positions? As far as I can tell, she's Continuity McDonnell in that arena.
    I'm just guessing. A glimpse at her voting record gives little away. She comes across as mainstream left, not hard left, so I am not yet sure why Corbs and McD are so keen on her
    If the advisors and other key background people remain the same, you get the same policies and the same control over the party. Is there any evidence that she has ever had or uttered any independent thought? Until we see evidence otherwise, it is safe to assume that with her you will get continuity Corbynism.
    I expect the term 'Corbynist' to be widely used by the tories over the next 5 years. The tories have never had a good bogeyman to refer back to, Blair being mainly a nemesis of the left.
    I wonder if the Tories will keep on the services of the folk from down under. They seem to be very effective at working out the correct messaging.
    Effective messaging. Correct implies legal, decent, honest and truthful and there have already been doubts raised about that.
    I don't know. New Labour were the masters of it and it served them well for 3 terms.
  • camelcamel Posts: 815

    camel said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Byronic said:

    Endillion said:

    Byronic said:

    alterego said:

    algarkirk said:

    Is there any evidence that RLB is or is not a Marxist? Or indeed whether she is on record as supporting our enemies?

    Evidence? I don't recall seeing any evidence but we know the Corbyn cohort think highly of her and are, everso gently, promoting her, so I suspect that is a fair indication, if not of Marxism then something to the wide left of central.
    Google says she is a practising Catholic, which might temper any hard leftwingery. Other than that she is rather opaque. A bit Green, a bit right-on...
    I get that "taking her whip from Rome", to paraphrase the other prominent Catholic in the Commons, might push her rightwards on social issues (although I bet it doesn't), but does it say much about her economic positions? As far as I can tell, she's Continuity McDonnell in that arena.
    I'm just guessing. A glimpse at her voting record gives little away. She comes across as mainstream left, not hard left, so I am not yet sure why Corbs and McD are so keen on her
    If the advisors and other key background people remain the same, you get the same policies and the same control over the party. Is there any evidence that she has ever had or uttered any independent thought? Until we see evidence otherwise, it is safe to assume that with her you will get continuity Corbynism.
    I expect the term 'Corbynist' to be widely used by the tories over the next 5 years. The tories have never had a good bogeyman to refer back to, Blair being mainly a nemesis of the left.
    I wonder if the Tories will keep on the services of the folk from down under. They seem to be very effective at working out the correct messaging.
    Don't think they'll need it. I cannot see Labour electing a leader untainted by Corbyn.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,172
    edited December 2019
    Share of vote in England:

    Con 47.2%
    Lab 34.0%
    LD 12.4%
    Grn 3.0%
    BRX 2.0%

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2019/results/england
This discussion has been closed.