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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A suggested new cross-break for GE2019 pollsters – separate nu

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  • Haven't heard much from Momentum this election, have they just been quietly getting on with it as last time?

    Pretty much. I get WhatsApp messages from them every day urging me to do this and that. I do about half of them, all I've time for.
    Perhaps Nick can tell us if Labour has given up on Bishop Aukland and Darlington? Where is the NE firewall now, Nick? For betting purposes like.
    Your sense of innocent enquiry is endearing, but I haven't a clue about what's happening north of Nottingham, and my WhatsApp stuff is all about southern seats.
    What about in your old seat. Is Ms Soubry going to win?
    Nope.
    what does the mrp say
    A high of 25%. With Tory low of 36%
  • My old stomping ground, B'ham Northfield, on Ch4 with a focus group.

    Looks very bad for Labour.

    https://www.channel4.com/news/focus-group-can-tories-win-over-people-who-voted-labour-and-leave

    That is very interesting. Why has brexit not happened, "Because it will be bad for rich people and good for us, that is why they have fought it so hard."

    Also destroys the myth the Boris is loathed, they mock his affairs but still are prepared to vote for him.
    Brexit will almost certainly be great for rich people and terrible for them, but they'll figure that out for themselves soon enough.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729
    Andy_JS said:

    Just seen the ICM poll. Good for Labour. 35%.

    How accuratewas ICM in 2017?
  • Pulpstar said:

    Somebody is still piling loads more liquidity into Betfair market.

    Maybe someone's had a sneaky peek at the postals :D !
    Something brought Tory majority in a bit, but it was the massive injection of liquidity that caught my eye. Somebody suggested it was city types that do this most GEs.
  • NeilVWNeilVW Posts: 732
    RobD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    andy3664 said:

    Talked to a number of floating voters today who were appalled by Johnson's TV interview yesterday and as a result will definitely not be voting Tory.

    Anecdotal but he's pissed off a lot of people around my way
    But who can people vote for? We hear reports of Labour haemmoraging support, apparently Boris is disliked, the polls say he is on for anything from minority govt to a landslide and the LDs have disappeared from sight.
    Who the heck can people vote for?
    I am not expecting Caroline Lucas PM who else is left? Farage?
    That's what points the way back to 2017. Most people won't vote for something, they'll vote against. Terrified Tories go to Johnson to stop Corbyn, despondent Labourites cling to Corbyn to stop the Tories. Everyone else gets crushed in the middle.
    Except this time the Tories are winning 73% of Leave voters
    (Pic snipped)
    Total abolition of tuition fees is bound to be Labour's final gambit. Expect the policy to be announced at the weekend. ;)
    Maybe reducing the interest rate to zero rather than outright cancellation?
    No sign of it in the grey book.
    More of a grey area than a grey book.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,604
    edited December 2019

    Did @HYUFD report back on the results of plugging that ICM poll into Electoral Calculus by any chance?

    Don't know if that's meant as a serious request, but I did it anyway. Plugged the ICM numbers into the main prediction and used the most recent Scotland-only poll for parts North of the Tweed.

    Result: Con 314, Lab 252, SNP 47, LD 15.

    2017 part 2, right down to the DUP controlling (probably, just about) the balance of power. That'd be fun, wouldn't it?
    Flavible:
    Con 347
    Lab 217
    SNP 40
    LD 24
    PC 3
    Grn 1
    https://flavible.co.uk/userprediction/gb/42/35/13/3/3/3.1/0.2/0.7
  • Pulpstar said:

    Somebody is still piling loads more liquidity into Betfair market.

    Maybe someone's had a sneaky peek at the postals :D !
    Something brought Tory majority in a bit, but it was the massive injection of liquidity that caught my eye. Somebody suggested it was city types that do this most GEs.
    Bored hedgies.
  • NeilVW said:

    RobD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    andy3664 said:

    Talked to a number of floating voters today who were appalled by Johnson's TV interview yesterday and as a result will definitely not be voting Tory.

    Anecdotal but he's pissed off a lot of people around my way
    But who can people vote for? We hear reports of Labour haemmoraging support, apparently Boris is disliked, the polls say he is on for anything from minority govt to a landslide and the LDs have disappeared from sight.
    Who the heck can people vote for?
    I am not expecting Caroline Lucas PM who else is left? Farage?
    That's what points the way back to 2017. Most people won't vote for something, they'll vote against. Terrified Tories go to Johnson to stop Corbyn, despondent Labourites cling to Corbyn to stop the Tories. Everyone else gets crushed in the middle.
    Except this time the Tories are winning 73% of Leave voters
    (Pic snipped)
    Total abolition of tuition fees is bound to be Labour's final gambit. Expect the policy to be announced at the weekend. ;)
    Maybe reducing the interest rate to zero rather than outright cancellation?
    No sign of it in the grey book.
    More of a grey area than a grey book.
    Black hole more like.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153

    Other than Hugh Grant and Maureen Lipman, it has been a surprising change how little celebs have got involved with this GE...normally by now we are getting the daily chain letters sent to the Guardian from them and on the other side business folk sending to the Telegraph.

    Maybe they are finally getting the message it generally doesn't help any.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,838
    Charles said:

    I don’t think it is unreasonable to say that if it is pelting down with snow all day this will keep some voters away from the polling station / polling place.

    Snowflakes!
    From where comes this story of snow on the 12th? I've looked at the Met Office website and it looks an unremarkable dull winter day with perhaps some showers. In some parts there may be a bit of a sleety snow shower - but it's not looking the beast from the east.
    Obvs forecasts this far out are still a bit guessy - but nothing as far as I can see to suggest any major problems. Maybe I just haven't looked in the right places?
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    My old stomping ground, B'ham Northfield, on Ch4 with a focus group.

    Looks very bad for Labour.

    https://www.channel4.com/news/focus-group-can-tories-win-over-people-who-voted-labour-and-leave

    That is very interesting. Why has brexit not happened, "Because it will be bad for rich people and good for us, that is why they have fought it so hard."

    Also destroys the myth the Boris is loathed, they mock his affairs but still are prepared to vote for him.
    Did I catch it correctly, that they said Dom Cummings is the one behind these focus groups that CH4 sat in on?
    They said "as so lovedby Domenic Cummings."
  • eggegg Posts: 1,749
    On topic. I have been thinking for weeks that most this year the combination for Tory + BREX has been 46 and above that means they are clearly winning and healthy Boris majority even landslide, they will have to drop to 41 or in the thirties consistenty to indicate it may be anything than a Boris majority. On the basis of what second ref tactical voting is available to spoil the party, Lab Libdem Green need to reach 52 or above consistently to indicate a good poll.
    So I introduce The Eggling.
    I can Eggling the last two polls.
    Survation
    Tory + Brex 45 - Boris wins majority
    Lab Lib green 48 - 4 short of TV damage
    ICM
    Tory + Brex 45 - Boris wins majority
    Lab Lib green 50 - 2 short of TV damage
    In a betting sense The Eggling can trace a trend if any up to polling day to help inform bet on PV
  • Crickey....that focus group, I knew what Tony Blair stood for and I trusted him...I don't know what Corbyn stands for and I don't trust him....
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    My old stomping ground, B'ham Northfield, on Ch4 with a focus group.

    Looks very bad for Labour.

    https://www.channel4.com/news/focus-group-can-tories-win-over-people-who-voted-labour-and-leave

    Yes that chimes with all the Vox Pops in the papers.

    Labour are losing their English heartlands to the Tories, and on a large scale.

    This is how Boris will - perhaps - get a majority without a very large lead in votes. Wealthy southern England will stay loyal because Corbyn. Unionist Scotland will stay Tory because Union. The southwest will stay Tory because Leave. Wales is a toss-up. But Boris will win enough red seats in the Midlands and the North to get a majority. And we shall Brexit. I reckon.
  • My old stomping ground, B'ham Northfield, on Ch4 with a focus group.

    Looks very bad for Labour.

    https://www.channel4.com/news/focus-group-can-tories-win-over-people-who-voted-labour-and-leave

    That is very interesting. Why has brexit not happened, "Because it will be bad for rich people and good for us, that is why they have fought it so hard."

    Also destroys the myth the Boris is loathed, they mock his affairs but still are prepared to vote for him.
    Did I catch it correctly, that they said Dom Cummings is the one behind these focus groups that CH4 sat in on?
    They said "as so lovedby Domenic Cummings."
    Arhh, that makes more sense.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042

    Andy_JS said:

    Just seen the ICM poll. Good for Labour. 35%.

    How accuratewas ICM in 2017?
    As it happens, their final poll was one of the worst out there and overestimated the Tory lead by 9-10%.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2017_United_Kingdom_general_election#2017
  • eggegg Posts: 1,749
    Couldnt Cummings find any Lab leavers still wavering to include in the room?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153

    Somebody is still piling loads more liquidity into Betfair market.

    Which one?
    Tory, Overall Majority.
    Blimey. Look at those numbers.
    £100k got added in about an hour early this evening. And a load more has gone on in the past hour or so.
    An attempt to shift the narrative away from narrowing polls?
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    Andy_JS said:

    Just seen the ICM poll. Good for Labour. 35%.

    How accuratewas ICM in 2017?
    I think the question you should ask is how accurate was a pollster in 2010, 2015, 2017 and did they adjust (or keep) methodology to counteract deficiencies in past elections.
    Do adjustments lead to better performance? Is the methodology of the past suitable to today?
    Very hard to assess how polls will perform in advance!
  • Boris...Lovable Buffoon....don't care how many how many kids or has affairs....

    Are we sure that CH4 focus group was ex-Labour voters, not Tory ones?
  • My old stomping ground, B'ham Northfield, on Ch4 with a focus group.

    Looks very bad for Labour.

    https://www.channel4.com/news/focus-group-can-tories-win-over-people-who-voted-labour-and-leave

    That is very interesting. Why has brexit not happened, "Because it will be bad for rich people and good for us, that is why they have fought it so hard."

    Also destroys the myth the Boris is loathed, they mock his affairs but still are prepared to vote for him.
    Did I catch it correctly, that they said Dom Cummings is the one behind these focus groups that CH4 sat in on?
    They said "as so lovedby Domenic Cummings."
    Labour strategists who've seen that Ch4 segment will not be sleeping tonight.

    Absolutely terrible for Labour.

    I'm on Tory gain for Northfield. Now at 1.84
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153

    Crickey....that focus group, I knew what Tony Blair stood for and I trusted him...I don't know what Corbyn stands for and I don't trust him....

    How can people not know what Corbyn stands for? Why, he's that lifelong anti-racist campaigner who counter-intuitively finds it difficult to spot racism.
  • kle4 said:

    Somebody is still piling loads more liquidity into Betfair market.

    Which one?
    Tory, Overall Majority.
    Blimey. Look at those numbers.
    £100k got added in about an hour early this evening. And a load more has gone on in the past hour or so.
    An attempt to shift the narrative away from narrowing polls?
    Huh, other than professional gamblers and saddos like us, nobody will be taking any notice of this.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Somebody is still piling loads more liquidity into Betfair market.

    Maybe someone's had a sneaky peek at the postals :D !
    It there a way of getting a graphical view of the volatility of Betfair the same as you would for regulated exchanges?
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    edited December 2019

    Boris...Lovable Buffoon....don't care how many how many kids or has affairs....

    Are we sure that CH4 focus group was ex-Labour voters, not Tory ones?


    It chimes with the Delta subsets I posted earlier today. Corbyn's net approval is -51 in the Midlands, -42 in the North. Johnson is at -4 and +7 respectively.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,604

    kle4 said:

    Somebody is still piling loads more liquidity into Betfair market.

    Which one?
    Tory, Overall Majority.
    Blimey. Look at those numbers.
    £100k got added in about an hour early this evening. And a load more has gone on in the past hour or so.
    An attempt to shift the narrative away from narrowing polls?
    Huh, other than professional gamblers and saddos like us, nobody will be taking any notice of this.
    £7.2 million matched on this market.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,127
    edited December 2019
    kle4 said:

    Crickey....that focus group, I knew what Tony Blair stood for and I trusted him...I don't know what Corbyn stands for and I don't trust him....

    How can people not know what Corbyn stands for? Why, he's that lifelong anti-racist campaigner who counter-intuitively finds it difficult to spot racism.
    LOL....in all seriousness, I find it difficult to square the circle of those statements. My first and foremost cricitism of Blair, not telling the truth, don't know what he stood for as I am not sure he always believed in it what he was saying.

    Corbyn, I know exactly what he stands for and he believes it 100%, and thats exactly the problem.
  • philiph said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Just seen the ICM poll. Good for Labour. 35%.

    How accuratewas ICM in 2017?
    I think the question you should ask is how accurate was a pollster in 2010, 2015, 2017 and did they adjust (or keep) methodology to counteract deficiencies in past elections.
    Do adjustments lead to better performance? Is the methodology of the past suitable to today?
    Very hard to assess how polls will perform in advance!
    2015: Polls on average overstated Labour
    2017: Polls on average understated Labour
    2019: ?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    egg said:

    On topic. I have been thinking for weeks that most this year the combination for Tory + BREX has been 46 and above that means they are clearly winning and healthy Boris majority even landslide, they will have to drop to 41 or in the thirties consistenty to indicate it may be anything than a Boris majority. On the basis of what second ref tactical voting is available to spoil the party, Lab Libdem Green need to reach 52 or above consistently to indicate a good poll.
    So I introduce The Eggling.
    I can Eggling the last two polls.
    Survation
    Tory + Brex 45 - Boris wins majority
    Lab Lib green 48 - 4 short of TV damage
    ICM
    Tory + Brex 45 - Boris wins majority
    Lab Lib green 50 - 2 short of TV damage
    In a betting sense The Eggling can trace a trend if any up to polling day to help inform bet on PV

    Seems a bit scrambled to me, just saying.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153

    Boris...Lovable Buffoon....don't care how many how many kids or has affairs....
    Are we sure that CH4 focus group was ex-Labour voters, not Tory ones?

    Whether it will translate into sufficient votes in the right area or not I do not know, but that people, even those not natural supporters, give Boris benefit of the doubt on things they would pillory others for, does seem true to a degree. It must infuriate other politicians, what he can get away with.
    If anything its a strata of core Tory (or now former Tory) opinion which is among the most implacably opposed to him, in a similar way to ex-Labour types like Austin and Woodcock being the most virulently anti-Corbyn. Their previous connection seems to amplify the dislike, while normal voters even on the opposite side do not feel the same fervour.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    Pulpstar said:

    Somebody is still piling loads more liquidity into Betfair market.

    Maybe someone's had a sneaky peek at the postals :D !
    Something brought Tory majority in a bit, but it was the massive injection of liquidity that caught my eye. Somebody suggested it was city types that do this most GEs.
    Often these weird lumps of money appear, and rarely forecast anything of note. There were those large lumps of money backing a no deal exit in the spring, which continued to arrive in round amounts well after the point when no deal had as good as been ruled out. There was the mystery Leadsom for Leader backer. Etc.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    edited December 2019
    Byronic said:

    My old stomping ground, B'ham Northfield, on Ch4 with a focus group.

    Looks very bad for Labour.

    https://www.channel4.com/news/focus-group-can-tories-win-over-people-who-voted-labour-and-leave

    Yes that chimes with all the Vox Pops in the papers.

    Labour are losing their English heartlands to the Tories, and on a large scale.

    This is how Boris will - perhaps - get a majority without a very large lead in votes. Wealthy southern England will stay loyal because Corbyn. Unionist Scotland will stay Tory because Union. The southwest will stay Tory because Leave. Wales is a toss-up. But Boris will win enough red seats in the Midlands and the North to get a majority. And we shall Brexit. I reckon.
    Yes it is the Trump factor, Yougov MRP had 44 mainly Leave seats going Tory much like the rustbelt went for Trump as the swing was biggest with the white working class (same story in Australia where the white working class in Queensland won it for Morrison).

    Look at this map, huge Tory gains North of Watford, barely any in the South and London


    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1199812713100263424?s=20
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    nico67 said:

    Panorama is turning into a horror show for Prince Andrew.

    Virginia Roberts seems very convincing .

    This is tomorrows media obssesion and maybe longer
    Monarchy on the ropes during a GE. I can’t remember that ever happening before.
    Bad for the Tories?
    Cannot see the connection to be fair
    People equate the two, Johnson has reinforced that with his "monarchy is above reproach" shtick, and don't whatever you do mention David Rowland for the next couple of weeks. I have never heard of him - never, do you hear me? - and nor has the tory party.

    I genuinely haven't heard of him - are you going to enlighten us or is this some sort of #innocentface thing?
    Google him, perhaps? Business associate of Prince A whose business dealings are going to get at least as much attention as his party time activities in the weeks ahead, and nearly became Tory treasurer in 2010.
  • NeilVWNeilVW Posts: 732
    kle4 said:

    Crickey....that focus group, I knew what Tony Blair stood for and I trusted him...I don't know what Corbyn stands for and I don't trust him....

    How can people not know what Corbyn stands for? Why, he's that lifelong anti-racist campaigner who counter-intuitively finds it difficult to spot racism.
    And may or may not recommend the public vote for the Brexit deal he negotiates.
  • Quincel said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Just seen the ICM poll. Good for Labour. 35%.

    How accuratewas ICM in 2017?
    As it happens, their final poll was one of the worst out there and overestimated the Tory lead by 9-10%.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2017_United_Kingdom_general_election#2017
    But what methodology are they now using? Is it closer to 2015, and if so how did they do then?
  • My old stomping ground, B'ham Northfield, on Ch4 with a focus group.

    Looks very bad for Labour.

    https://www.channel4.com/news/focus-group-can-tories-win-over-people-who-voted-labour-and-leave

    Wow, that doesn't look too good for them.

    MP is Richard Burden. Not Richard Burgon. So close.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    egg said:

    On topic. I have been thinking for weeks that most this year the combination for Tory + BREX has been 46 and above that means they are clearly winning and healthy Boris majority even landslide, they will have to drop to 41 or in the thirties consistenty to indicate it may be anything than a Boris majority. On the basis of what second ref tactical voting is available to spoil the party, Lab Libdem Green need to reach 52 or above consistently to indicate a good poll.
    So I introduce The Eggling.
    I can Eggling the last two polls.
    Survation
    Tory + Brex 45 - Boris wins majority
    Lab Lib green 48 - 4 short of TV damage
    ICM
    Tory + Brex 45 - Boris wins majority
    Lab Lib green 50 - 2 short of TV damage
    In a betting sense The Eggling can trace a trend if any up to polling day to help inform bet on PV

    Seems a bit scrambled to me, just saying.
    Certainly not sunny side up.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,590

    kle4 said:

    Crickey....that focus group, I knew what Tony Blair stood for and I trusted him...I don't know what Corbyn stands for and I don't trust him....

    How can people not know what Corbyn stands for? Why, he's that lifelong anti-racist campaigner who counter-intuitively finds it difficult to spot racism.
    LOL....in all seriousness, I find it difficult to square the circle of those statements. My first and foremost cricitism of Blair, not telling the truth, don't know what he stood for as I am not sure he always believed in it what he was saying.

    Corbyn, I know exactly what he stands for and he believes it 100%, and thats exactly the problem.
    Yes, people are just applying generic criticism sentences they have heard used by others before, to express a general dislike - the precise content is not necessarily what they really mean.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    Pulpstar said:

    Somebody is still piling loads more liquidity into Betfair market.

    Maybe someone's had a sneaky peek at the postals :D !
    It there a way of getting a graphical view of the volatility of Betfair the same as you would for regulated exchanges?
    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics

    Click on the graph icon at the start of the market.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    philiph said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Just seen the ICM poll. Good for Labour. 35%.

    How accuratewas ICM in 2017?
    I think the question you should ask is how accurate was a pollster in 2010, 2015, 2017 and did they adjust (or keep) methodology to counteract deficiencies in past elections.
    Do adjustments lead to better performance? Is the methodology of the past suitable to today?
    Very hard to assess how polls will perform in advance!
    2015: Polls on average overstated Labour
    2017: Polls on average understated Labour
    2019: ?

    ? On the button ?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153

    kle4 said:

    Somebody is still piling loads more liquidity into Betfair market.

    Which one?
    Tory, Overall Majority.
    Blimey. Look at those numbers.
    £100k got added in about an hour early this evening. And a load more has gone on in the past hour or so.
    An attempt to shift the narrative away from narrowing polls?
    Huh, other than professional gamblers and saddos like us, nobody will be taking any notice of this.
    Odd things get picked up, and amplified by the commentariat. It seems an odd thing for someone to do, but I could see some media figure running with it. "Well, the polls are narrowing a bit, which suggests a tighter result, but we are seeing some signs that point to people thinking a Tory majority remains increasingly likely..."
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,604
    edited December 2019

    My old stomping ground, B'ham Northfield, on Ch4 with a focus group.

    Looks very bad for Labour.

    https://www.channel4.com/news/focus-group-can-tories-win-over-people-who-voted-labour-and-leave

    That is very interesting. Why has brexit not happened, "Because it will be bad for rich people and good for us, that is why they have fought it so hard."

    Also destroys the myth the Boris is loathed, they mock his affairs but still are prepared to vote for him.
    Did I catch it correctly, that they said Dom Cummings is the one behind these focus groups that CH4 sat in on?
    They said "as so lovedby Domenic Cummings."
    Labour strategists who've seen that Ch4 segment will not be sleeping tonight.

    Absolutely terrible for Labour.

    I'm on Tory gain for Northfield. Now at 1.84
    YouGov MRP had Labour narrowly holding it by 43% to 40%.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ry90s0oDXu6_LhDKNiI6fXaSFJsfMBaAXI6cZ8XhqQ8/edit#gid=0
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,614
    So Corbyn bought a Secondary Infektion scam?
    https://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUKKBN1Y6206
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153

    egg said:

    On topic. I have been thinking for weeks that most this year the combination for Tory + BREX has been 46 and above that means they are clearly winning and healthy Boris majority even landslide, they will have to drop to 41 or in the thirties consistenty to indicate it may be anything than a Boris majority. On the basis of what second ref tactical voting is available to spoil the party, Lab Libdem Green need to reach 52 or above consistently to indicate a good poll.
    So I introduce The Eggling.
    I can Eggling the last two polls.
    Survation
    Tory + Brex 45 - Boris wins majority
    Lab Lib green 48 - 4 short of TV damage
    ICM
    Tory + Brex 45 - Boris wins majority
    Lab Lib green 50 - 2 short of TV damage
    In a betting sense The Eggling can trace a trend if any up to polling day to help inform bet on PV

    Seems a bit scrambled to me, just saying.
    Damn, you poached that comment out from under me.
  • Crickey....that focus group, I knew what Tony Blair stood for and I trusted him...I don't know what Corbyn stands for and I don't trust him....

    As I say, devastating for Labour.

    I know the area very well. Mixed. Marginal obviously. Lots of blue collar/lower middle class conservatives, but lots of solid Lab who vote the way their mams and dads did. If the latter are crumbling, then it is good night Jezza.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,486
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    nico67 said:

    Panorama is turning into a horror show for Prince Andrew.

    Virginia Roberts seems very convincing .

    This is tomorrows media obssesion and maybe longer
    Monarchy on the ropes during a GE. I can’t remember that ever happening before.
    Bad for the Tories?
    Cannot see the connection to be fair
    People equate the two, Johnson has reinforced that with his "monarchy is above reproach" shtick, and don't whatever you do mention David Rowland for the next couple of weeks. I have never heard of him - never, do you hear me? - and nor has the tory party.

    I genuinely haven't heard of him - are you going to enlighten us or is this some sort of #innocentface thing?
    Google him, perhaps? Business associate of Prince A whose business dealings are going to get at least as much attention as his party time activities in the weeks ahead, and nearly became Tory treasurer in 2010.
    Golly.
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    edited December 2019
    Andy_JS said:

    Did @HYUFD report back on the results of plugging that ICM poll into Electoral Calculus by any chance?

    Don't know if that's meant as a serious request, but I did it anyway. Plugged the ICM numbers into the main prediction and used the most recent Scotland-only poll for parts North of the Tweed.

    Result: Con 314, Lab 252, SNP 47, LD 15.

    2017 part 2, right down to the DUP controlling (probably, just about) the balance of power. That'd be fun, wouldn't it?
    Flavible:
    Con 347
    Lab 217
    SNP 40
    LD 24
    PC 3
    Grn 1
    https://flavible.co.uk/userprediction/gb/42/35/13/3/3/3.1/0.2/0.7
    I really like Flavible projections, because they seem to be so down on labour seats. 😂
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    edited December 2019
    NeilVW said:

    kle4 said:

    Crickey....that focus group, I knew what Tony Blair stood for and I trusted him...I don't know what Corbyn stands for and I don't trust him....

    How can people not know what Corbyn stands for? Why, he's that lifelong anti-racist campaigner who counter-intuitively finds it difficult to spot racism.
    And may or may not recommend the public vote for the Brexit deal he negotiates.
    That's just a sign of his cast iron principles to not take sides in a referendum. It's a recent cast iron principle, but cast iron nonetheless, any suggestion it is a cynical political fudge are an outright lie.
    Actually in all honesty I think that strategy has worked pretty well, but principled it ain't.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Election Day looking staggeringly cold on the latest model outputs. Much of the north and Scotland are at the moment set to have an 'Ice Day' i.e. a day in which the maxima never gets above zero.

    Snow in several places too.

    When you say "staggeringly cold " and "never gets above zero" - are you talking absolute zero?
    'Ice Day' which means maxima never getting above zero C. Factor in the significant windchill from the northerly and it would feel like -10C.

    But it may not happen. These things usually don't!!!
    It’s so cold my wife and daughter are fleeing to California for the winter
    The extended forest fire season should keep them toasty......
    We have one of the old homes that they
    built on the bits that don’t burn or flood
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,127
    edited December 2019

    So Corbyn bought a Secondary Infektion scam?
    https://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUKKBN1Y6206

    Its oks, Carole Conspiracy will be on it....right...holds breath....

    Is interesting, we have had and Aaron Banks twitter hack in the space of a week or so.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    maaarsh said:

    kle4 said:

    Crickey....that focus group, I knew what Tony Blair stood for and I trusted him...I don't know what Corbyn stands for and I don't trust him....

    How can people not know what Corbyn stands for? Why, he's that lifelong anti-racist campaigner who counter-intuitively finds it difficult to spot racism.
    LOL....in all seriousness, I find it difficult to square the circle of those statements. My first and foremost cricitism of Blair, not telling the truth, don't know what he stood for as I am not sure he always believed in it what he was saying.

    Corbyn, I know exactly what he stands for and he believes it 100%, and thats exactly the problem.
    Yes, people are just applying generic criticism sentences they have heard used by others before, to express a general dislike - the precise content is not necessarily what they really mean.
    Same way people can say they think Boris is honest despite all evidence to the contrary. What (some amount at least) mean is they like him/support him nonetheless.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    That focus group is devastating for Jezza.

    Con majority?

    Which one?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    That focus group is devastating for Jezza.

    Con majority?

    Which one?
  • egg said:

    On topic. I have been thinking for weeks that most this year the combination for Tory + BREX has been 46 and above that means they are clearly winning and healthy Boris majority even landslide, they will have to drop to 41 or in the thirties consistenty to indicate it may be anything than a Boris majority. On the basis of what second ref tactical voting is available to spoil the party, Lab Libdem Green need to reach 52 or above consistently to indicate a good poll.
    So I introduce The Eggling.
    I can Eggling the last two polls.
    Survation
    Tory + Brex 45 - Boris wins majority
    Lab Lib green 48 - 4 short of TV damage
    ICM
    Tory + Brex 45 - Boris wins majority
    Lab Lib green 50 - 2 short of TV damage
    In a betting sense The Eggling can trace a trend if any up to polling day to help inform bet on PV

    Cracking!
  • Andy_JS said:

    My old stomping ground, B'ham Northfield, on Ch4 with a focus group.

    Looks very bad for Labour.

    https://www.channel4.com/news/focus-group-can-tories-win-over-people-who-voted-labour-and-leave

    That is very interesting. Why has brexit not happened, "Because it will be bad for rich people and good for us, that is why they have fought it so hard."

    Also destroys the myth the Boris is loathed, they mock his affairs but still are prepared to vote for him.
    Did I catch it correctly, that they said Dom Cummings is the one behind these focus groups that CH4 sat in on?
    They said "as so lovedby Domenic Cummings."
    Labour strategists who've seen that Ch4 segment will not be sleeping tonight.

    Absolutely terrible for Labour.

    I'm on Tory gain for Northfield. Now at 1.84
    YouGov MRP had Labour narrowly holding it by 43% to 40%.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ry90s0oDXu6_LhDKNiI6fXaSFJsfMBaAXI6cZ8XhqQ8/edit#gid=0
    We shall see. 65th on the list of Tory targets according to electionpolling.

    If it falls then Jezza is gone.
  • Charles said:

    That focus group is devastating for Jezza.

    Con majority?

    Which one?
    https://www.channel4.com/news/focus-group-can-tories-win-over-people-who-voted-labour-and-leave
  • camelcamel Posts: 815
    kle4 said:

    Other than Hugh Grant and Maureen Lipman, it has been a surprising change how little celebs have got involved with this GE...normally by now we are getting the daily chain letters sent to the Guardian from them and on the other side business folk sending to the Telegraph.

    Maybe they are finally getting the message it generally doesn't help any.
    There was this letter/smear* in the Guardian. None so famous as Hugh Grant though:
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/14/concerns-about-antisemitism-mean-we-cannot-vote-labour
    *Delete according to your own tastes
  • HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    My old stomping ground, B'ham Northfield, on Ch4 with a focus group.

    Looks very bad for Labour.

    https://www.channel4.com/news/focus-group-can-tories-win-over-people-who-voted-labour-and-leave

    Yes that chimes with all the Vox Pops in the papers.

    Labour are losing their English heartlands to the Tories, and on a large scale.

    This is how Boris will - perhaps - get a majority without a very large lead in votes. Wealthy southern England will stay loyal because Corbyn. Unionist Scotland will stay Tory because Union. The southwest will stay Tory because Leave. Wales is a toss-up. But Boris will win enough red seats in the Midlands and the North to get a majority. And we shall Brexit. I reckon.
    Yes it is the Trump factor, Yougov MRP had 44 mainly Leave seats going Tory much like the rustbelt went for Trump as the swing was biggest with the white working class (same story in Australia where the white working class in Queensland won it for Morrison).

    Look at this map, huge Tory gains North of Watford, barely any in the South and London


    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1199812713100263424?s=20
    If the Tories win thanks to these voters, what will they actually do to help them lead better lives? Do they just plan to follow the Republican strategy of letting them get poorer and angrier every year, and hope that the anger and resentment blinds them to the fact the Republicans really don't give a shit about them? Because if that's the way we're going I'm not sure I want to live here much longer.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,127
    edited December 2019
    Thomas the Tank Engine had to shut the hell up to save children everywhere - Tracy Van Slyke
    Classism, sexism, anti-environmentalism bordering on racism: any parent who discovered these hidden lessons will be glad the show’s star just quit
    Oh wait...I've got this troll the Guardian thing wrong haven't I....that was an actual article.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,614
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Election Day looking staggeringly cold on the latest model outputs. Much of the north and Scotland are at the moment set to have an 'Ice Day' i.e. a day in which the maxima never gets above zero.

    Snow in several places too.

    When you say "staggeringly cold " and "never gets above zero" - are you talking absolute zero?
    'Ice Day' which means maxima never getting above zero C. Factor in the significant windchill from the northerly and it would feel like -10C.

    But it may not happen. These things usually don't!!!
    It’s so cold my wife and daughter are fleeing to California for the winter
    The extended forest fire season should keep them toasty......
    We have one of the old homes that they
    built on the bits that don’t burn or flood
    Just the earthquake then.....
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    kle4 said:

    egg said:

    On topic. I have been thinking for weeks that most this year the combination for Tory + BREX has been 46 and above that means they are clearly winning and healthy Boris majority even landslide, they will have to drop to 41 or in the thirties consistenty to indicate it may be anything than a Boris majority. On the basis of what second ref tactical voting is available to spoil the party, Lab Libdem Green need to reach 52 or above consistently to indicate a good poll.
    So I introduce The Eggling.
    I can Eggling the last two polls.
    Survation
    Tory + Brex 45 - Boris wins majority
    Lab Lib green 48 - 4 short of TV damage
    ICM
    Tory + Brex 45 - Boris wins majority
    Lab Lib green 50 - 2 short of TV damage
    In a betting sense The Eggling can trace a trend if any up to polling day to help inform bet on PV

    Seems a bit scrambled to me, just saying.
    Damn, you poached that comment out from under me.
    I think you're eggsagerating there.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    My old stomping ground, B'ham Northfield, on Ch4 with a focus group.

    Looks very bad for Labour.

    https://www.channel4.com/news/focus-group-can-tories-win-over-people-who-voted-labour-and-leave

    Yes that chimes with all the Vox Pops in the papers.

    Labour are losing their English heartlands to the Tories, and on a large scale.

    This is how Boris will - perhaps - get a majority without a very large lead in votes. Wealthy southern England will stay loyal because Corbyn. Unionist Scotland will stay Tory because Union. The southwest will stay Tory because Leave. Wales is a toss-up. But Boris will win enough red seats in the Midlands and the North to get a majority. And we shall Brexit. I reckon.
    Yes it is the Trump factor, Yougov MRP had 44 mainly Leave seats going Tory much like the rustbelt went for Trump as the swing was biggest with the white working class (same story in Australia where the white working class in Queensland won it for Morrison).

    Look at this map, huge Tory gains North of Watford, barely any in the South and London


    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1199812713100263424?s=20
    If the Tories win thanks to these voters, what will they actually do to help them lead better lives? Do they just plan to follow the Republican strategy of letting them get poorer and angrier every year, and hope that the anger and resentment blinds them to the fact the Republicans really don't give a shit about them? Because if that's the way we're going I'm not sure I want to live here much longer.
    They will control immigration and restore sovereignty as they want while continuing to grow the economy
  • Just 8 days campaigning left
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    egg said:

    On topic. I have been thinking for weeks that most this year the combination for Tory + BREX has been 46 and above that means they are clearly winning and healthy Boris majority even landslide, they will have to drop to 41 or in the thirties consistenty to indicate it may be anything than a Boris majority. On the basis of what second ref tactical voting is available to spoil the party, Lab Libdem Green need to reach 52 or above consistently to indicate a good poll.
    So I introduce The Eggling.
    I can Eggling the last two polls.
    Survation
    Tory + Brex 45 - Boris wins majority
    Lab Lib green 48 - 4 short of TV damage
    ICM
    Tory + Brex 45 - Boris wins majority
    Lab Lib green 50 - 2 short of TV damage
    In a betting sense The Eggling can trace a trend if any up to polling day to help inform bet on PV

    Seems a bit scrambled to me, just saying.
    Don’t beat Egg, Benedict Pointer
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    Charles said:

    egg said:

    On topic. I have been thinking for weeks that most this year the combination for Tory + BREX has been 46 and above that means they are clearly winning and healthy Boris majority even landslide, they will have to drop to 41 or in the thirties consistenty to indicate it may be anything than a Boris majority. On the basis of what second ref tactical voting is available to spoil the party, Lab Libdem Green need to reach 52 or above consistently to indicate a good poll.
    So I introduce The Eggling.
    I can Eggling the last two polls.
    Survation
    Tory + Brex 45 - Boris wins majority
    Lab Lib green 48 - 4 short of TV damage
    ICM
    Tory + Brex 45 - Boris wins majority
    Lab Lib green 50 - 2 short of TV damage
    In a betting sense The Eggling can trace a trend if any up to polling day to help inform bet on PV

    Seems a bit scrambled to me, just saying.
    Don’t beat Egg, Benedict Pointer
    Un œuf already!
  • HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    My old stomping ground, B'ham Northfield, on Ch4 with a focus group.

    Looks very bad for Labour.

    https://www.channel4.com/news/focus-group-can-tories-win-over-people-who-voted-labour-and-leave

    Yes that chimes with all the Vox Pops in the papers.

    Labour are losing their English heartlands to the Tories, and on a large scale.

    This is how Boris will - perhaps - get a majority without a very large lead in votes. Wealthy southern England will stay loyal because Corbyn. Unionist Scotland will stay Tory because Union. The southwest will stay Tory because Leave. Wales is a toss-up. But Boris will win enough red seats in the Midlands and the North to get a majority. And we shall Brexit. I reckon.
    Yes it is the Trump factor, Yougov MRP had 44 mainly Leave seats going Tory much like the rustbelt went for Trump as the swing was biggest with the white working class (same story in Australia where the white working class in Queensland won it for Morrison).

    Look at this map, huge Tory gains North of Watford, barely any in the South and London


    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1199812713100263424?s=20
    If the Tories win thanks to these voters, what will they actually do to help them lead better lives? Do they just plan to follow the Republican strategy of letting them get poorer and angrier every year, and hope that the anger and resentment blinds them to the fact the Republicans really don't give a shit about them? Because if that's the way we're going I'm not sure I want to live here much longer.
    Labour members have only themselves to blame.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    Just 8 days campaigning left

    Thank goodness!
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    They will be paying all the deferred bills.
  • Just 8 days campaigning left

    Thank goodness!
    Spoilsport :lol:
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    Swiss boarding school
  • HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 1,185

    My old stomping ground, B'ham Northfield, on Ch4 with a focus group.

    Looks very bad for Labour.

    https://www.channel4.com/news/focus-group-can-tories-win-over-people-who-voted-labour-and-leave

    That is very interesting. Why has brexit not happened, "Because it will be bad for rich people and good for us, that is why they have fought it so hard."

    Also destroys the myth the Boris is loathed, they mock his affairs but still are prepared to vote for him.
    Did I catch it correctly, that they said Dom Cummings is the one behind these focus groups that CH4 sat in on?
    No, I think they said he was behind similar focus groups that were run before the Brexit vote.
  • NorthernPowerhouseNorthernPowerhouse Posts: 557
    edited December 2019

    RobD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    andy3664 said:

    Talked to a number of floating voters today who were appalled by Johnson's TV interview yesterday and as a result will definitely not be voting Tory.

    Anecdotal but he's pissed off a lot of people around my way
    But who can people vote for? We hear reports of Labour haemmoraging support, apparently Boris is disliked, the polls say he is on for anything from minority govt to a landslide and the LDs have disappeared from sight.
    Who the heck can people vote for?
    I am not expecting Caroline Lucas PM who else is left? Farage?
    That's what points the way back to 2017. Most people won't vote for something, they'll vote against. Terrified Tories go to Johnson to stop Corbyn, despondent Labourites cling to Corbyn to stop the Tories. Everyone else gets crushed in the middle.
    Except this time the Tories are winning 73% of Leave voters

    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1201471072756854786?s=20
    Total abolition of tuition fees is bound to be Labour's final gambit. Expect the policy to be announced at the weekend. ;)
    Maybe reducing the interest rate to zero rather than outright cancellation?
    No sign of it in the grey book.
    Labour's grey book contains all sorts of interesting details on how they plan to fund their spending commitments.

    Except for £400bn for the state investment bank, £250bn for the state investment fund, £200bn (at a guess) for the nationalisation programme, £58bn to throw at the WASPI women, and God alone knows what else that they've already made up on the spot, or will do during the remaining nine days of the campaign.

    Is there anything else that I missed?
    BBC More Or Less did a good run down of the corporate taxation changes (not just corporation taxes, but capital gains and tax in investments). A point I haven’t seen made elsewhere. That the changes together take the UK from the lower to middle end of corporate taxation to the top or nearer it. Substantially more than Germany.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503

  • HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 1,185
    kle4 said:

    Jason said:

    What's the point of promising to write off anything if nobody believes the promise is remotely credible? I doubt the majority of Labour voters themselves believe the figures that are being bandied about can ever be delivered.

    I imagine the point is to gamble it won't put off anyone already swayed to vote Labour - out of principle and support for the policies, or fear of Tories, or for electoral bribes for unprinciple, deceitful whiners like the WASPI women - and will hopefully ensure there really is a youthquake turnout this time, or at least that it will be about what it was last time.
    The current system is unsustainable as is, the Tories are just letting it chug along and Labour are going to chuck money at it in the hope that solves the problem. Neither have any interest in to getting at the root causes.
  • Other than Hugh Grant and Maureen Lipman, it has been a surprising change how little celebs have got involved with this GE...normally by now we are getting the daily chain letters sent to the Guardian from them and on the other side business folk sending to the Telegraph.


    It's because they are banging on about politics on Twitter *all year round* these days.

    I'm sorta pleased that the likes of Rachel Riley and Tracy Ann Oberman don't like Corbyn and are calling out his racism, but, well, it's got pretty damn monotonous hearing it every single day for months and months on end.

    And don't get me started on former comedians David Schneider and Armando Iannucci...

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,604
    edited December 2019

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    My old stomping ground, B'ham Northfield, on Ch4 with a focus group.

    Looks very bad for Labour.

    https://www.channel4.com/news/focus-group-can-tories-win-over-people-who-voted-labour-and-leave

    Yes that chimes with all the Vox Pops in the papers.

    Labour are losing their English heartlands to the Tories, and on a large scale.

    This is how Boris will - perhaps - get a majority without a very large lead in votes. Wealthy southern England will stay loyal because Corbyn. Unionist Scotland will stay Tory because Union. The southwest will stay Tory because Leave. Wales is a toss-up. But Boris will win enough red seats in the Midlands and the North to get a majority. And we shall Brexit. I reckon.
    Yes it is the Trump factor, Yougov MRP had 44 mainly Leave seats going Tory much like the rustbelt went for Trump as the swing was biggest with the white working class (same story in Australia where the white working class in Queensland won it for Morrison).

    Look at this map, huge Tory gains North of Watford, barely any in the South and London


    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1199812713100263424?s=20
    If the Tories win thanks to these voters, what will they actually do to help them lead better lives? Do they just plan to follow the Republican strategy of letting them get poorer and angrier every year, and hope that the anger and resentment blinds them to the fact the Republicans really don't give a shit about them? Because if that's the way we're going I'm not sure I want to live here much longer.
    Not really a Tory myself but I think you've misunderstood Conservative philosophy, which is that most of the time it's up to people to better themselves, not the job of the government to do things for them. You vote Labour if you strongly believe that.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    HaroldO said:

    Haven't heard much from Momentum this election, have they just been quietly getting on with it as last time?

    Pretty much. I get WhatsApp messages from them every day urging me to do this and that. I do about half of them, all I've time for.
    Perhaps Nick can tell us if Labour has given up on Bishop Aukland and Darlington? Where is the NE firewall now, Nick? For betting purposes like.
    Your sense of innocent enquiry is endearing, but I haven't a clue about what's happening north of Nottingham, and my WhatsApp stuff is all about southern seats.
    What about in your old seat. Is Ms Soubry going to win?
    Nope.
    Most of the obvious campaining around Broxtowe ward has been by Labour, I've had one flyer from Anna Soubry and that's it. But then that was true in 2017 and she won.
    Which bit do you live in? Beeston is very much a Labour town and it's easy to put up a convincing show there, but the hinterland - Nuthall, Greasley, Trowell -is spread out and campaigning there is largely invisible.

    My contacts say, like the MRP poll, that Soubry's campaign is falling well short, partly for lack of organisation (she has some local celeb support, but the LibDems footsoldiers are not very keen), as well as the entrenched strength of the Tory and Labour armies, who have been fighting the seat tooth and nail in every election since 1997. With contact rates north of 50%, both parties know exactly where their potential supporters and waverers are.

    The Tories are favourites, because Soubry as an arch-Remainer is taking more from Labour - the Labour vote there is heavily Remain even though the constituency voted Leave. On the other hand, the Labour candidate is lifelong local, while the Tory is entirely new. I'm going up on Friday to help for the rest of the election but I expect it to be tough.
  • maaarsh said:

    kle4 said:

    Crickey....that focus group, I knew what Tony Blair stood for and I trusted him...I don't know what Corbyn stands for and I don't trust him....

    How can people not know what Corbyn stands for? Why, he's that lifelong anti-racist campaigner who counter-intuitively finds it difficult to spot racism.
    LOL....in all seriousness, I find it difficult to square the circle of those statements. My first and foremost cricitism of Blair, not telling the truth, don't know what he stood for as I am not sure he always believed in it what he was saying.

    Corbyn, I know exactly what he stands for and he believes it 100%, and thats exactly the problem.
    Yes, people are just applying generic criticism sentences they have heard used by others before, to express a general dislike - the precise content is not necessarily what they really mean.
    Many years ago I was sat on a jury which was fairly evenly divided as to the defendant's guilt. There were a couple of jurors who were adamant he was guilty, but hopelessly inarticulate as to why they thought so, and a couple of others who were equally adamant as to his innocence, but likewise were unable to say why. Like most of the jury, I was fairly undecided but on balance leaned towards guilty - and I gave my reason. No sooner had I done so than the two who were convinced he was guilty pounced on it and said - 'Yes, that's why WE think he's guilty.' In other words, they just wanted to send the poor sod down, and were looking for any reason to do so. My rationale provided them with one.

    I think it works similarly with voting for many people. They know who they want to support, and then look for a reason to justify it.

    Nite all.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,130
    edited December 2019
    Regarding the ongoing discussion about guards on trains.
    Due to a combination of strike action, signalling problems, maintenance work and a fatality, it looked at some point tonight that I might not reach my destination. During this period the guards tried to help by suggesting alternate routes or nearby hotels. This prevented an annoying situation becoming a frightening and dangerous one (it's too cold to sleep in a station tonight) and although it still might end badly, it won't go frozen-corpse-in-the-morning-frost.
    So if anybody still believes that guards are superfluous, please take this as testimony to the contrary.
  • Oh Jeezo, Laurie Penny has a sister, I have discovered by watching Newsnight.
    She seems like a chip off the old block.
  • Oh Jeezo, Laurie Penny has a sister, I have discovered by watching Newsnight.
    She seems like a chip off the old block.

    That explains things. At first I thought I had forgotten Penny senior's name.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    nico67 said:

    Panorama is turning into a horror show for Prince Andrew.

    Virginia Roberts seems very convincing .

    Grim. Her testimony cut with his excuses is very powerful.
    I am going to make myself unpopular I know.
    But here goes anyway: so was Carl Beech.
    If she thinks a crime was committed against her or by an individual, she should be reporting it to the police and giving evidence in court in a trial. Not on prime time TV. Trial by television is abhorrent and unfair. People can prepare and rehearse their stories. This is not testimony, properly tested and challenged and corroborated, in any sense.
    I have no idea who is or is not telling the truth. But I do know that this is not the way to find out the truth about what Epstein did or to take the appropriate legal action against others who may have committed criminal acts. And even Andrew, dim as he appears to be, deserves the benefit of the law.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    edited December 2019
    viewcode said:

    Regarding the ongoing discussion about guards on trains.
    Due to a combination of strike action, signalling problems, maintenance work and a fatality, it looked at some point tonight that I might not reach my destination. During this period the guards tried to help by suggesting alternate routes or nearby hotels. This prevented an annoying situation becoming a frightening and dangerous one (it's too cold to sleep in a station tonight) and although it still might end badly, it won't go frozen-corpse-in-the-morning-frost.
    So if anybody still believes that guards are superfluous, please take this as testimony to the contrary.

    One of the lesser known features of our train system is that the TOCs are pretty much obliged to get you to your final destination station if problems occur.
  • Is this troll the guardian thing another Kiwi Shitster thing?
  • Oh Jeezo, Laurie Penny has a sister, I have discovered by watching Newsnight.
    She seems like a chip off the old block.

    That explains things. At first I thought I had forgotten Penny senior's name.
    They should send her out on the door knock in some North East marginals.
  • Cyclefree said:

    nico67 said:

    Panorama is turning into a horror show for Prince Andrew.

    Virginia Roberts seems very convincing .

    Grim. Her testimony cut with his excuses is very powerful.
    I am going to make myself unpopular I know.
    But here goes anyway: so was Carl Beech.
    If she thinks a crime was committed against her or by an individual, she should be reporting it to the police and giving evidence in court in a trial. Not on prime time TV. Trial by television is abhorrent and unfair. People can prepare and rehearse their stories. This is not testimony, properly tested and challenged and corroborated, in any sense.
    I have no idea who is or is not telling the truth. But I do know that this is not the way to find out the truth about what Epstein did or to take the appropriate legal action against others who may have committed criminal acts. And even Andrew, dim as he appears to be, deserves the benefit of the law.
    She did - she reported it to The Met. Who did nothing. It was in the documentary.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,130
    Mortimer said:

    viewcode said:

    Regarding the ongoing discussion about guards on trains.
    Due to a combination of strike action, signalling problems, maintenance work and a fatality, it looked at some point tonight that I might not reach my destination. During this period the guards tried to help by suggesting alternate routes or nearby hotels. This prevented an annoying situation becoming a frightening and dangerous one (it's too cold to sleep in a station tonight) and although it still might end badly, it won't go frozen-corpse-in-the-morning-frost.
    So if anybody still believes that guards are superfluous, please take this as testimony to the contrary.

    One of the lesser known features of our train system is that the TOCs are pretty much obliged to get you to your final destination station if problems occur.
    I'll bear that in mind, thank you. In the event of it going genuinely bad, does one collar a guard and say "get me a taxi". In many cases if no trains are running there may be no alternative.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,127
    edited December 2019


    twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/1021886560399237120?s=20

    Oh no they're not.
    Stand up comedy at the moment is absolutely shit all round. The likes of Romesh Ranganathan are the big stars, their gags are just so tame and dull, and his sitcom is even worse.
  • HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 1,185

    HaroldO said:

    Haven't heard much from Momentum this election, have they just been quietly getting on with it as last time?

    Pretty much. I get WhatsApp messages from them every day urging me to do this and that. I do about half of them, all I've time for.
    Perhaps Nick can tell us if Labour has given up on Bishop Aukland and Darlington? Where is the NE firewall now, Nick? For betting purposes like.
    Your sense of innocent enquiry is endearing, but I haven't a clue about what's happening north of Nottingham, and my WhatsApp stuff is all about southern seats.
    What about in your old seat. Is Ms Soubry going to win?
    Nope.
    Most of the obvious campaining around Broxtowe ward has been by Labour, I've had one flyer from Anna Soubry and that's it. But then that was true in 2017 and she won.
    Which bit do you live in? Beeston is very much a Labour town and it's easy to put up a convincing show there, but the hinterland - Nuthall, Greasley, Trowell -is spread out and campaigning there is largely invisible.

    My contacts say, like the MRP poll, that Soubry's campaign is falling well short, partly for lack of organisation (she has some local celeb support, but the LibDems footsoldiers are not very keen), as well as the entrenched strength of the Tory and Labour armies, who have been fighting the seat tooth and nail in every election since 1997. With contact rates north of 50%, both parties know exactly where their potential supporters and waverers are.

    The Tories are favourites, because Soubry as an arch-Remainer is taking more from Labour - the Labour vote there is heavily Remain even though the constituency voted Leave. On the other hand, the Labour candidate is lifelong local, while the Tory is entirely new. I'm going up on Friday to help for the rest of the election but I expect it to be tough.
    Beeston, near the tram line. I pass by the local Labour office here every day, I shall wave towards it on friday.
    I have not decided whom to vote for yet tbh, but I am not impressed with Labour or the Tories currently. One more massive spending promise from Labour knocks them out entirely.
  • The Abbott one is quite funny, the others less so. The Corbyn effort is a fail because it isn't clear whether the grammatical error is his or the scriptwriter's.
  • Whisper this quietly but Ashfield looks like a nailed-on Con gain.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153

    Whisper this quietly but Ashfield looks like a nailed-on Con gain.

    Mr Zadrozny not feeling the love of Ashfield?
  • viewcode said:

    Mortimer said:

    viewcode said:

    Regarding the ongoing discussion about guards on trains.
    Due to a combination of strike action, signalling problems, maintenance work and a fatality, it looked at some point tonight that I might not reach my destination. During this period the guards tried to help by suggesting alternate routes or nearby hotels. This prevented an annoying situation becoming a frightening and dangerous one (it's too cold to sleep in a station tonight) and although it still might end badly, it won't go frozen-corpse-in-the-morning-frost.
    So if anybody still believes that guards are superfluous, please take this as testimony to the contrary.

    One of the lesser known features of our train system is that the TOCs are pretty much obliged to get you to your final destination station if problems occur.
    I'll bear that in mind, thank you. In the event of it going genuinely bad, does one collar a guard and say "get me a taxi". In many cases if no trains are running there may be no alternative.
    I have had that happen. Train couldn’t stop at my destination due to a body on the line, so they stopped at the next one. I was the only passenger who wanted to go to my station so they got and paid for a taxi for me.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    viewcode said:

    Mortimer said:

    viewcode said:

    Regarding the ongoing discussion about guards on trains.
    Due to a combination of strike action, signalling problems, maintenance work and a fatality, it looked at some point tonight that I might not reach my destination. During this period the guards tried to help by suggesting alternate routes or nearby hotels. This prevented an annoying situation becoming a frightening and dangerous one (it's too cold to sleep in a station tonight) and although it still might end badly, it won't go frozen-corpse-in-the-morning-frost.
    So if anybody still believes that guards are superfluous, please take this as testimony to the contrary.

    One of the lesser known features of our train system is that the TOCs are pretty much obliged to get you to your final destination station if problems occur.
    I'll bear that in mind, thank you. In the event of it going genuinely bad, does one collar a guard and say "get me a taxi". In many cases if no trains are running there may be no alternative.
    Basically, yes - but more likely someone on the station. AFAIK, the guards themselves have less power to make that sort of decision.

    I was at Waterloo last summer when there was a massive points failure. Last train cancelled. We were put in a taxi back to Dorset.
This discussion has been closed.