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  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,486
    Do we know what the terrorist was convicted of, what his original sentence was, and what it became when it was reviewed? It is news to me that a sentence can be overturned like that - I know a verdict can be overturned...
  • eggegg Posts: 1,749

    ydoethur said:

    Father of the house. How kind of you but I doubt I am always wise sadly

    On that subject, do we know if @JackW is OK? Haven’t seen him around recently and I know he’s been ill?
    Not sure but he does tend to be absent from time to time
    Is it his arse?
  • Do we know what the terrorist was convicted of, what his original sentence was, and what it became when it was reviewed? It is news to me that a sentence can be overturned like that - I know a verdict can be overturned...

    It wasn't overturned. He was released on license automatically as he'd served a certain part of his sentence.

    The law was changed in 2012 so if that did happen people would have to before a parole board but this doesn't apply retrospectively (I'm sure legal experts can explain why).

    Essentially, the 2012 law needs backdating, that is the most sensible response to this tragedy, I think.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    edited November 2019

    Do we know what the terrorist was convicted of, what his original sentence was, and what it became when it was reviewed? It is news to me that a sentence can be overturned like that - I know a verdict can be overturned...

    He was planning to set up a terrorist training camp in Kashmir and run a bombing campaign in Birmingham from it.
    Edit - also apparently targeting the London Stock Exchange: https://news.sky.com/story/london-bridge-terror-attack-everything-we-know-about-terrorist-usman-khan-11874250
  • eggegg Posts: 1,749
    ydoethur said:

    Father of the house. How kind of you but I doubt I am always wise sadly

    On that subject, do we know if @JackW is OK? Haven’t seen him around recently and I know he’s been ill?
    Haven’t seen the Jezziah too? Did he form a Jezean People's Front crack suicide squad in the early stage of the campaign?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,721
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Father of the house. How kind of you but I doubt I am always wise sadly

    On that subject, do we know if @JackW is OK? Haven’t seen him around recently and I know he’s been ill?
    Not sure but he does tend to be absent from time to time
    And his family have posted on here in the past where he was ill, so maybe he’s just on a break.
    He last visited on Nov 1 according to Vanilla.

    Technically Father/Mother/Non-binary of the House is the one with the longest service rather than greatest age, in which case it would be @MikeSmithson unless we exclude those with admin rights.
  • ydoethur said:

    Do we know what the terrorist was convicted of, what his original sentence was, and what it became when it was reviewed? It is news to me that a sentence can be overturned like that - I know a verdict can be overturned...

    He was planning to set up a terrorist training camp in Kashmir and run a bombing campaign in Birmingham from it.
    Wasn't he convinced for plotting to blow up the LSE?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,486
    ydoethur said:

    Do we know what the terrorist was convicted of, what his original sentence was, and what it became when it was reviewed? It is news to me that a sentence can be overturned like that - I know a verdict can be overturned...

    He was planning to set up a terrorist training camp in Kashmir and run a bombing campaign in Birmingham from it.
    So I suppose the reason for the sentence being reduced (what do we call it? Commuted?) is that the real crime had yet to take place.
  • alb1onalb1on Posts: 698

    Do we know what the terrorist was convicted of, what his original sentence was, and what it became when it was reviewed? It is news to me that a sentence can be overturned like that - I know a verdict can be overturned...

    It wasn't overturned. He was released on license automatically as he'd served a certain part of his sentence.

    The law was changed in 2012 so if that did happen people would have to before a parole board but this doesn't apply retrospectively (I'm sure legal experts can explain why).

    Essentially, the 2012 law needs backdating, that is the most sensible response to this tragedy, I think.
    No. The most sensible response to this tragedy is to avoid any immediate decisions in the heat of the moment. Any system is going to throw up unwanted consequences and it is knee jerk responses which usually just make things worse.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627

    Do we know what the terrorist was convicted of, what his original sentence was, and what it became when it was reviewed? It is news to me that a sentence can be overturned like that - I know a verdict can be overturned...

    It wasn't overturned. He was released on license automatically as he'd served a certain part of his sentence.

    The law was changed in 2012 so if that did happen people would have to before a parole board but this doesn't apply retrospectively (I'm sure legal experts can explain why).

    Essentially, the 2012 law needs backdating, that is the most sensible response to this tragedy, I think.
    Sadly there’s a lot of issues with retrospective law that make it a very bad idea, and a difficult case like this shouldn’t be used to cross the Rubicon.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424

    ydoethur said:

    Do we know what the terrorist was convicted of, what his original sentence was, and what it became when it was reviewed? It is news to me that a sentence can be overturned like that - I know a verdict can be overturned...

    He was planning to set up a terrorist training camp in Kashmir and run a bombing campaign in Birmingham from it.
    Wasn't he convinced for plotting to blow up the LSE?
    I gather that as well, yes. I only really registered the stuff about Birmingham, I’m afraid, because I visit there.
    I drive past his flat fairly often, which is something of a sobering thought.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424

    ydoethur said:

    Do we know what the terrorist was convicted of, what his original sentence was, and what it became when it was reviewed? It is news to me that a sentence can be overturned like that - I know a verdict can be overturned...

    He was planning to set up a terrorist training camp in Kashmir and run a bombing campaign in Birmingham from it.
    So I suppose the reason for the sentence being reduced (what do we call it? Commuted?) is that the real crime had yet to take place.
    No, as was pointed out by @CorrectHorseBattery it wasn’t commuted. He was released because he had served his tarriff.
  • Sandpit said:

    Do we know what the terrorist was convicted of, what his original sentence was, and what it became when it was reviewed? It is news to me that a sentence can be overturned like that - I know a verdict can be overturned...

    It wasn't overturned. He was released on license automatically as he'd served a certain part of his sentence.

    The law was changed in 2012 so if that did happen people would have to before a parole board but this doesn't apply retrospectively (I'm sure legal experts can explain why).

    Essentially, the 2012 law needs backdating, that is the most sensible response to this tragedy, I think.
    Sadly there’s a lot of issues with retrospective law that make it a very bad idea, and a difficult case like this shouldn’t be used to cross the Rubicon.
    I'm not a legal expert so I really have no ability to argue you against here, I just thought that as a starting point for discussion it seemed logical. But I don't really know much of this area at all.

    I do know we shouldn't start attacking the legal system or lawyers, etc. Completely the wrong thing.

    And now BJ is attacking his own Government? I'm lost
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Those of a nervous disposition look away now......
    Bmg lead cut by 7 to 6 points
  • Good afternoon troops are we expecting the first poll around 7?
  • alb1onalb1on Posts: 698
    This demonstrates precisely why Johnson is unfit for public office; jumping to conclusions to please a baying electorate without any thought to the consequences. We all need to think long and hard before deciding on a proper response. Stupid knee jerk changes could make things worse.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,476
    egg said:

    Foxy said:

    egg said:

    Jason said:

    The polls this evening are going to be fascinating

    I'm sure you'll spin them into whatever you want them to say.
    Yup, I've got Jezza on the phone already
    Compare and contrast

    Boris with Patel and Cressida Dick attending London Bridge personally shaking hands with the emergency services

    Corbyn somewhere in Leeds fighting a losing battle to pursuade leave voters he is on their side
    Johnson and Patel are there, quite rightly, in their jobs as prime minister and home secretary, respectively. The leader of the opposition has no business getting involved, and probably doesn't want to politicise an ongoing police investigation. This is desperate stuff, even from the demented Tory cheerleaders on here.
    Corbyn is too busy being an utter wanker and trying to make political capital out of the terror attacks - blaming them on government cuts.

    I said yesterday afternoon it was wrong to blame the prison service and parole board for the fact this man was released. They were operating within the constraints of the law. It is equally wrong to blame his release on lack of funding in the prison service. We could have the best funded service in the world (of course we are a long way from that) and he would still have been released as that is the law as our politicians have written it, based on a reasonable, decent principle that people can reform if given the chance.
    Frankly I think both parties are trying to get political capital out of this which I find disgraceful.
    Almost certainly agreed. The only one I have seen so far this afternoon is the Corbyn clip on Sky but I don't doubt there will be others on the Government side making the counter claims.
    They need to take a leaf out of the book of Father of the PB house Big_G and not try to point score off an event like this.
    Point of order!

    @OldKingCole may have that accolade.
    I understand father of the commons should be someone else who doesn’t want it. So unlike the crowning of Claudius, there’s a wanting element to it?
    I think I'm older, but Big G has been posting longer, so deserves the accolade more than I do! Happy to yield to JackW, too. Hope he's OK
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 21,436
    edited November 2019
    Thanks for whoever advised me to lay Con overall majority
  • Tories on 39%...

    It's all getting a little bit 2017
  • eggegg Posts: 1,749
    alb1on said:

    Do we know what the terrorist was convicted of, what his original sentence was, and what it became when it was reviewed? It is news to me that a sentence can be overturned like that - I know a verdict can be overturned...

    It wasn't overturned. He was released on license automatically as he'd served a certain part of his sentence.

    The law was changed in 2012 so if that did happen people would have to before a parole board but this doesn't apply retrospectively (I'm sure legal experts can explain why).

    Essentially, the 2012 law needs backdating, that is the most sensible response to this tragedy, I think.
    No. The most sensible response to this tragedy is to avoid any immediate decisions in the heat of the moment. Any system is going to throw up unwanted consequences and it is knee jerk responses which usually just make things worse.
    Is there an element where murderer, murdered and brave heroes all part of the same seminar?

    I hear what you are saying Alb but I’ve always felt these misguided terrorists in prisons abroad, here and walking around in tags have been made in Britain, a country that, with school exclusions, no rite of passage, surrenders these people to the radicalism on the internet.
  • egg said:

    Foxy said:

    egg said:

    Jason said:

    The polls this evening are going to be fascinating

    I'm sure you'll spin them into whatever you want them to say.
    Yup, I've got Jezza on the phone already
    Compare and contrast

    Boris with Patel and Cressida Dick attending London Bridge personally shaking hands with the emergency services

    Corbyn somewhere in Leeds fighting a losing battle to pursuade leave voters he is on their side
    Johnson and Patel are there, quite rightly, in their jobs as prime minister and home secretary, respectively. The leader of the opposition has no business getting involved, and probably doesn't want to politicise an ongoing police investigation. This is desperate stuff, even from the demented Tory cheerleaders on here.
    Corbyn is too busy being an utter wanker and trying to make political capital out of the terror attacks - blaming them on government cuts.

    I said yesterday afternoon it was wrong to blame the prison service and parole board for the fact this man was released. They were operating within the constraints of the law. It is equally wrong to blame his release on lack of funding in the prison service. We could have the best funded service in the world (of course we are a long way from that) and he would still have been released as that is the law as our politicians have written it, based on a reasonable, decent principle that people can reform if given the chance.
    Frankly I think both parties are trying to get political capital out of this which I find disgraceful.
    Almost certainly agreed. The only one I have seen so far this afternoon is the Corbyn clip on Sky but I don't doubt there will be others on the Government side making the counter claims.
    They need to take a leaf out of the book of Father of the PB house Big_G and not try to point score off an event like this.
    Point of order!

    @OldKingCole may have that accolade.
    I understand father of the commons should be someone else who doesn’t want it. So unlike the crowning of Claudius, there’s a wanting element to it?
    I think I'm older, but Big G has been posting longer, so deserves the accolade more than I do! Happy to yield to JackW, too. Hope he's OK
    Yes you are OKC and you are a very valued poster who I enjoy reading
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Interesting point from a criminologist about the probation service and recent cuts made by the government . If Bozo is going to play politics the opposition parties should aswell .
  • I hope nobody will take offence at my comment re what to do, I realise now I was rushing into a judgment and I will relent from here. Apologies again.
  • Tories:39
    Labour: 33

    Is that the lowest lead yet?
  • ArtistArtist Posts: 1,893
    It's reversing the big rise in the last BMG. Their Tory leads during the campaign have been 8, 8, 13, 6
  • The conviction was quashed on appeal. The court declared the government's sentence of indeterminate length was deemed unlawful and a fixed length sentence imposed. He was automatically released half way through as is the current law so blame the Appeal Court!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,236
    alb1on said:

    And it may happen again. I look forward to plans being derailed by pictures of Boris humping a shop dummy or racially insulting any number of ethnic groups or nationalities around the globe.

    Boris humping a shop dummy would just add to the legend. It's probably on the grid for next week.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245

    saddened said:

    nico67 said:

    On the day we find out a brave Pole tackled the terrorist the Tories continue to resort to more despicable anti EU migrant rhetoric in their campaign literature.

    They really don’t care how much division is sowed , and whether their latest attacks on EU nationals might lead to more disgusting attacks on them like after the EU ref .

    I’m utterly ashamed of what’s happening to the UK under this rancid government .

    On the day a brave murderer tackled the terrorist . See how stupid your point looks?
    Your point is what? You regret that the former murderer bravely tackled the terrorist?
    My point is. Why selectivity use this no doubt heroic individuals nationality when it suits your argument. When you'd be bouncing up and down if it was used with regards to him committing an offence. His nationality is neither here nor there. Unless you want to use it to make a crass point.
  • Greens on 5 in BMG means Labour has a lot of people to squeeze?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    If the poll tightening trend continues we are definitely back where we started. It seems the British people do not want a functioning government or resolution of the Brexit issue. I fear we are heading towards another referendum on Brexit - and then maybe we can return to the other serious issues. As a Conservative remainer I have no problem with this but my greater fear continues to be the slide towards a Labour government which under the current leadership would be catastrophic.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Some different views on Corbyn. Guardian photographer Sean Smith.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/29/on-road-with-jeremy-corbyn-a-photo-essay

    Margaret Thatcher was a lot easier to photograph than Tony Blair or David Cameron. They want to stage-manage and control things.
  • alb1onalb1on Posts: 698
    egg said:

    alb1on said:

    Do we know what the terrorist was convicted of, what his original sentence was, and what it became when it was reviewed? It is news to me that a sentence can be overturned like that - I know a verdict can be overturned...

    It wasn't overturned. He was released on license automatically as he'd served a certain part of his sentence.

    The law was changed in 2012 so if that did happen people would have to before a parole board but this doesn't apply retrospectively (I'm sure legal experts can explain why).

    Essentially, the 2012 law needs backdating, that is the most sensible response to this tragedy, I think.
    No. The most sensible response to this tragedy is to avoid any immediate decisions in the heat of the moment. Any system is going to throw up unwanted consequences and it is knee jerk responses which usually just make things worse.
    Is there an element where murderer, murdered and brave heroes all part of the same seminar?

    I hear what you are saying Alb but I’ve always felt these misguided terrorists in prisons abroad, here and walking around in tags have been made in Britain, a country that, with school exclusions, no rite of passage, surrenders these people to the radicalism on the internet.
    I have no problem with changes as long as they are properly considered and thought through. I can also understand the public wish for changes. What I cannot understand or forgive is the rush to mouth public platitudes for electoral benefit which we have now seen from Johnson. He should shut it on this topic and take all the advice he clearly needs.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627
    edited November 2019

    Sandpit said:

    Do we know what the terrorist was convicted of, what his original sentence was, and what it became when it was reviewed? It is news to me that a sentence can be overturned like that - I know a verdict can be overturned...

    It wasn't overturned. He was released on license automatically as he'd served a certain part of his sentence.

    The law was changed in 2012 so if that did happen people would have to before a parole board but this doesn't apply retrospectively (I'm sure legal experts can explain why).

    Essentially, the 2012 law needs backdating, that is the most sensible response to this tragedy, I think.
    Sadly there’s a lot of issues with retrospective law that make it a very bad idea, and a difficult case like this shouldn’t be used to cross the Rubicon.
    I'm not a legal expert so I really have no ability to argue you against here, I just thought that as a starting point for discussion it seemed logical. But I don't really know much of this area at all.
    I do know we shouldn't start attacking the legal system or lawyers, etc. Completely the wrong thing.
    And now BJ is attacking his own Government? I'm lost
    I’m sure there’s many lawyers hanging around here who can chip in, but the major issue is that if government can change the law retrospectively, then people can be judged unfairly for their past actions against new standards.
    If, as an example, the law changed so that stealing a car resulted in a life sentence, then it’s not fair to give car thieves life sentences for offences committed before the law was changed - as they committed a crime knowing that the punishment might be a only few months, rather than a few decades.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,721
    Some nice results in the footy. Allisson sent off, Man City drawing, and Chelsea losing.

    I hope you all took my tip on Leicester winning the League at 38 a couple of weeks back. We will be breathing down Liverpools neck come Boxing Day. Still probably value as a trading bet at 22 on BFX.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    Thanks for whoever advised me to lay Con overall majority

    Out to 1.49/1.50 now
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453

    Tories:39
    Labour: 33

    Is that the lowest lead yet?

    Tories are shit
  • Tory majority sliding a bit
  • I like the Skybet bands of 11/2 on Tory seats for 320-329 and 330-339.

    If you think Boris will get close by no cigar those look tempting.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,710
    edited November 2019
    The only good news for Con here is Lab on 33 - one point lower than ICM, ComRes and Panelbase.
    Remember Bob Worcester - "look at the share, not the lead".
    Con 39 could be an outlier - everyone else up to now has had Con 41 or higher.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,880
    edited November 2019
    dr_spyn said:
    :lol::lol:
    Tomorrow's ELBOW should be "interesting"...
    :lol::lol:
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,486
    edited November 2019
    Prisons are too full and too expensive. Personally, I would immediately move all prisons out of London, to other parts of the UK where they can be of more benefit to struggling communities. I would build new prisons with facilities for prisoners to be put to work, learning valuable skills in the process. The prisons in London would be sold to property developers. For the worst, violent criminals, we would build prisons in Africa, providing a valuable source of revenue and employment for the host country, and saving a fortune in the process.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627
    edited November 2019
    Ooh, six point lead and Tories back to 39. Squeaky bum time!
    Hope they’ve got something up their sleeve for the next ten days!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,721
    Artist said:

    It's reversing the big rise in the last BMG. Their Tory leads during the campaign have been 8, 8, 13, 6

    It looks to me that their last poll was the outlier, this one does look much like the hard.

    https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1200821024406867974?s=19
  • HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 1,185
    nunu2 said:

    Tories:39
    Labour: 33

    Is that the lowest lead yet?

    Tories are shit
    I think that poll underestimates the Tory vote currently, but they have hit their ceiling at 42%, and have done so quite easily. But the Brexit mantra was always going to be a double edged sword, it will get you votes quickly and probably keep them but it will also limit your reach.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    nunu2 said:

    Tories:39
    Labour: 33

    Is that the lowest lead yet?

    Tories are shit
    Imagine the Labour lead if they had started campaigning...
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    Sandpit said:

    Ooh, six point lead and Tories back to 39. Squeaky bum time!
    Hope they’ve got something up their sleeve for the next ten days!

    Something, would be good!

    Better than the nothing so far.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,476

    The conviction was quashed on appeal. The court declared the government's sentence of indeterminate length was deemed unlawful and a fixed length sentence imposed. He was automatically released half way through as is the current law so blame the Appeal Court!

    Priti Patel is blaming the last Labour Government
    ' legislation brought in by your government in 2008 meant that dangerous terrorists had to automatically be released after half of their jail term. Conservatives changed the law in 2012 to end your automatic release policy but Khan was convicted before this.'

    I suspect that that's over simplistic. As I posted earlier, apparently he sought help from either the prison or the probation service but it wasn't available and so he was (I think) re-radicalised.
    Mixing with ones former criminal associates has long been known to lead to re-offending.
  • West Ham :)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,721
    edited November 2019

    Prisons are too full and too expensive. Personally, I would immediately move all prisons out of London, to other parts of the UK where they can be of more benefit to struggling communities. I would build new prisons with facilities for prisoners to be put to work, learning valuable skills in the process. The prisons in London would be sold to property developers. For the worst, violent criminals, we would build prisons in Africa, providing a valuable source of revenue and employment for the host country, and saving a fortune in the process.

    Short stay prisons need to be close to their communities for family and social visits, and prisoners on remand.
    I wouldn't be averse to building our own Alcatraz in the Falklands for convicted terrorists.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1200818747902050305

    Corbyn joining in on yesterday's events at London Bridge.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,560

    Do we know what the terrorist was convicted of, what his original sentence was, and what it became when it was reviewed? It is news to me that a sentence can be overturned like that - I know a verdict can be overturned...

    Both verdict and sentence can be appealed to the Court of Appeal. Sentence was appealed in this case and altered.

  • Do we know what the terrorist was convicted of, what his original sentence was, and what it became when it was reviewed? It is news to me that a sentence can be overturned like that - I know a verdict can be overturned...

    It wasn't overturned. He was released on license automatically as he'd served a certain part of his sentence.

    The law was changed in 2012 so if that did happen people would have to before a parole board but this doesn't apply retrospectively (I'm sure legal experts can explain why).

    Essentially, the 2012 law needs backdating, that is the most sensible response to this tragedy, I think.
    Sorry CHP but according to the news this is incorrect. He was originally given an indeterminate sentence but this was then challenged on appeal and was changed to a fixed 16 year sentence. From that point the normal rules about parole and licence applied. But he was not serving the indeterminate sentence he was originally given.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,291
    Evening PB - I see the penultimate Mega Polling Saturday of the general election campaign is off and running!

    #PeakLabour #ThisIsIt
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    Greens on 5 in BMG means Labour has a lot of people to squeeze?

    There’s no way the Greens will poll 5% on Election Day . Most of those will move to Labour , the Greens will be lucky to get 2% so that BMG poll is even better than what first seems . It will be interesting to see the cross tabs and how much Labour have closed in the older age group especially with woman voters . I was quite shocked to see a normal Tory voter interviewed the other day saying because of the Waspi pledge she’s now backing Labour .
  • Sandpit said:

    Ooh, six point lead and Tories back to 39. Squeaky bum time!
    Hope they’ve got something up their sleeve for the next ten days!

    Squeaky ELBOW time :lol:
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited November 2019
    Foxy said:

    Artist said:

    It's reversing the big rise in the last BMG. Their Tory leads during the campaign have been 8, 8, 13, 6

    It looks to me that their last poll was the outlier, this one does look much like the hard.

    https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1200821024406867974?s=19
    It was a big LD outlier which helps the Lab score up but also tories under 40. BMG have generally been bearish on tory score bar last weeks but lets see if the others start showing a decline!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,486

    Prisons are too full and too expensive. Personally, I would immediately move all prisons out of London, to other parts of the UK where they can be of more benefit to struggling communities. I would build new prisons with facilities for prisoners to be put to work, learning valuable skills in the process. The prisons in London would be sold to property developers. For the worst, violent criminals, we would build prisons in Africa, providing a valuable source of revenue and employment for the host country, and saving a fortune in the process.

    The prisons in the UK would pay minimum wage but board and lodging would be deducted, there would be some spending money for privileges, and the prisoners would be able to save what was left to support them upon being released.
  • Do we know what the terrorist was convicted of, what his original sentence was, and what it became when it was reviewed? It is news to me that a sentence can be overturned like that - I know a verdict can be overturned...

    It wasn't overturned. He was released on license automatically as he'd served a certain part of his sentence.

    The law was changed in 2012 so if that did happen people would have to before a parole board but this doesn't apply retrospectively (I'm sure legal experts can explain why).

    Essentially, the 2012 law needs backdating, that is the most sensible response to this tragedy, I think.
    Sorry CHP but according to the news this is incorrect. He was originally given an indeterminate sentence but this was then challenged on appeal and was changed to a fixed 16 year sentence. From that point the normal rules about parole and licence applied. But he was not serving the indeterminate sentence he was originally given.
    Thanks for correcting me mate.
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    Foxy said:

    Artist said:

    It's reversing the big rise in the last BMG. Their Tory leads during the campaign have been 8, 8, 13, 6

    It looks to me that their last poll was the outlier, this one does look much like the hard.

    https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1200821024406867974?s=19
    That looks a bit better. It seems the last poll had the libdems too high and Lab too low.
  • HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 1,185
    nunu2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Ooh, six point lead and Tories back to 39. Squeaky bum time!
    Hope they’ve got something up their sleeve for the next ten days!

    Something, would be good!

    Better than the nothing so far.
    I made a rambly post about this earlier, the current Conservative party have shown little interest in any other policies but Brexit. May even looking at new ground is seen as being why she lost the last election, so they have doubled down on Brexit and for a while its worked but it leaves you so bare for an actual campaign.
    They need to start promulgating new policies, listening to new ideas not just nibbling around the edges at things and repeating Brexit slogans.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,486
    algarkirk said:

    Do we know what the terrorist was convicted of, what his original sentence was, and what it became when it was reviewed? It is news to me that a sentence can be overturned like that - I know a verdict can be overturned...

    Both verdict and sentence can be appealed to the Court of Appeal. Sentence was appealed in this case and altered.

    Thanks.
  • Labour is up 4 points with Leave voters in a week, what is happening?
  • alb1onalb1on Posts: 698

    Prisons are too full and too expensive. Personally, I would immediately move all prisons out of London, to other parts of the UK where they can be of more benefit to struggling communities. I would build new prisons with facilities for prisoners to be put to work, learning valuable skills in the process. The prisons in London would be sold to property developers. For the worst, violent criminals, we would build prisons in Africa, providing a valuable source of revenue and employment for the host country, and saving a fortune in the process.

    I can never understand why we fail to learn from other countries rather than give way to emotional response. I agree prisons are too full (and are expensive). A system worth looking at is the sentencing of non-violent offenders who are not a flight risk to sentences which are served part time (nights only or weekends) or to deferred sentences which are served at a later date (slightly different to suspended sentences). Perhaps there are reasons not to go down these routes, but they would certainly free up resource to deal with more dangerous offenders. These sort of questions are why we need to make a considered response instead of jumping to conclusions.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    Dreadful poll. Looks like we could go sub 275. I will have to move in with nichomar
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,476

    Do we know what the terrorist was convicted of, what his original sentence was, and what it became when it was reviewed? It is news to me that a sentence can be overturned like that - I know a verdict can be overturned...

    It wasn't overturned. He was released on license automatically as he'd served a certain part of his sentence.

    The law was changed in 2012 so if that did happen people would have to before a parole board but this doesn't apply retrospectively (I'm sure legal experts can explain why).

    Essentially, the 2012 law needs backdating, that is the most sensible response to this tragedy, I think.
    Sorry CHP but according to the news this is incorrect. He was originally given an indeterminate sentence but this was then challenged on appeal and was changed to a fixed 16 year sentence. From that point the normal rules about parole and licence applied. But he was not serving the indeterminate sentence he was originally given.
    Thought Patel would be wrong!
  • Foxy said:

    Artist said:

    It's reversing the big rise in the last BMG. Their Tory leads during the campaign have been 8, 8, 13, 6

    It looks to me that their last poll was the outlier, this one does look much like the hard.

    https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1200821024406867974?s=19
    It was a big LD outlier which helps the Lab score up but also tories under 40. BMG have generally been bearish on tory score bar last weeks but lets see if the others start showing a decline!
    Labours + 5 is all from Lib Dems
  • If I was to advise, stick some money on Corbyn next PM, those are almost certain to drop
  • Foxy said:

    Artist said:

    It's reversing the big rise in the last BMG. Their Tory leads during the campaign have been 8, 8, 13, 6

    It looks to me that their last poll was the outlier, this one does look much like the hard.

    https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1200821024406867974?s=19
    Is this the 'Boris scared of debates / interviews' effect?
  • eggegg Posts: 1,749

    Labour is up 4 points with Leave voters in a week, what is happening?

    It’s just one poll.
    Have a cold shower come back at ten
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453

    Labour is up 4 points with Leave voters in a week, what is happening?

    Some context please.

    From what % to what % now. Perhaps their last poll had them too low with Leave voters
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,486
    Foxy said:

    Prisons are too full and too expensive. Personally, I would immediately move all prisons out of London, to other parts of the UK where they can be of more benefit to struggling communities. I would build new prisons with facilities for prisoners to be put to work, learning valuable skills in the process. The prisons in London would be sold to property developers. For the worst, violent criminals, we would build prisons in Africa, providing a valuable source of revenue and employment for the host country, and saving a fortune in the process.

    Short stay prisons need to be close to their communities for family and social visits, and prisoners on remand.
    I wouldn't be averse to building our own Alcatraz in the Falklands for convicted terrorists.
    Current law says that they do.
  • Foxy said:

    Artist said:

    It's reversing the big rise in the last BMG. Their Tory leads during the campaign have been 8, 8, 13, 6

    It looks to me that their last poll was the outlier, this one does look much like the hard.

    https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1200821024406867974?s=19
    Is this the 'Boris scared of debates / interviews' effect?
    The movement seems from lib dems to labour plus 1 point from conservatives to TBP
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Not sure the government blaming Labour is going to wash . The Tories have been in charge for 9 years and have slashed the police and probation services .

    So if Patel wants to start the blame game it could backfire .
  • JasonJason Posts: 1,614
    Well there's no sugar coating the polls for the Tories, things are starting to slip. I just hope those Tory women who have been seduced by the WASPI bribe come to their senses on polling day. Same for the Labour leavers who appear to prefer Corbyn to Brexit.
  • eggegg Posts: 1,749

    Foxy said:

    Artist said:

    It's reversing the big rise in the last BMG. Their Tory leads during the campaign have been 8, 8, 13, 6

    It looks to me that their last poll was the outlier, this one does look much like the hard.

    https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1200821024406867974?s=19
    It was a big LD outlier which helps the Lab score up but also tories under 40. BMG have generally been bearish on tory score bar last weeks but lets see if the others start showing a decline!
    Labours + 5 is all from Lib Dems
    Tory + BREX 43
    Lab Lib green 51

    ROUGE POLL
  • It's going to be a Hung Parliament, isn't it?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Another factor to consider is share. Now this may change tonight but remember labour have yet to burst through 34 in any poll this election. The key for them is getting into the upper 30s
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,486
    alb1on said:

    Prisons are too full and too expensive. Personally, I would immediately move all prisons out of London, to other parts of the UK where they can be of more benefit to struggling communities. I would build new prisons with facilities for prisoners to be put to work, learning valuable skills in the process. The prisons in London would be sold to property developers. For the worst, violent criminals, we would build prisons in Africa, providing a valuable source of revenue and employment for the host country, and saving a fortune in the process.

    I can never understand why we fail to learn from other countries rather than give way to emotional response. I agree prisons are too full (and are expensive). A system worth looking at is the sentencing of non-violent offenders who are not a flight risk to sentences which are served part time (nights only or weekends) or to deferred sentences which are served at a later date (slightly different to suspended sentences). Perhaps there are reasons not to go down these routes, but they would certainly free up resource to deal with more dangerous offenders. These sort of questions are why we need to make a considered response instead of jumping to conclusions.
    That's pretty much community service which already exists.
  • Another factor to consider is share. Now this may change tonight but remember labour have yet to burst through 34 in any poll this election. The key for them is getting into the upper 30s

    They've got 35?
  • glwglw Posts: 9,912

    Foxy said:

    Artist said:

    It's reversing the big rise in the last BMG. Their Tory leads during the campaign have been 8, 8, 13, 6

    It looks to me that their last poll was the outlier, this one does look much like the hard.

    https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1200821024406867974?s=19
    Is this the 'Boris scared of debates / interviews' effect?
    Probably that and the dismal rebuttal of Labour BS, as well as the almost invisible campaigning generally. May was terrible at the last general election, but so far Boris is proving to be barely any better. A quarter-decent Labour leader would be absolutely murdering the Tories, and equally a half-decent Tory leader ought to be giving Labour a kicking.

    God help us.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,486

    It's going to be a Hung Parliament, isn't it?

    That's in the Tories' hands.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,291
    edited November 2019
    Just goes to show Corbyn's "car crash" interview has made absolutely no difference whatsoever and Labour's lead has actually gone up.

    Election campaigns, debates, interviews, politicians constantly making a nuisance of themselves on the telly 14/7... all of it makes **** all difference.

    People are doing what they always do at this point in an election - which is considering the alternatives. Next week they'll start saying " no thanks" and we'll finish up back where started with Con 10% ahead.
  • Another factor to consider is share. Now this may change tonight but remember labour have yet to burst through 34 in any poll this election. The key for them is getting into the upper 30s

    I agree.
  • eggegg Posts: 1,749

    Sandpit said:

    Ooh, six point lead and Tories back to 39. Squeaky bum time!
    Hope they’ve got something up their sleeve for the next ten days!

    Squeaky ELBOW time :lol:
    What time is the elbow on Sunday, I’ll work my day around it.
  • Foxy said:

    Artist said:

    It's reversing the big rise in the last BMG. Their Tory leads during the campaign have been 8, 8, 13, 6

    It looks to me that their last poll was the outlier, this one does look much like the hard.

    https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1200821024406867974?s=19
    The Tory+Brexit aggregate is down to 43%, in the previous poll it was 44%, before that 46% and 46%. Perhaps Labour Leavers returning to Labour?
  • Foxy said:

    Artist said:

    It's reversing the big rise in the last BMG. Their Tory leads during the campaign have been 8, 8, 13, 6

    It looks to me that their last poll was the outlier, this one does look much like the hard.

    https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1200821024406867974?s=19
    The Tory+Brexit aggregate is down to 43%, in the previous poll it was 44%, before that 46% and 46%. Perhaps Labour Leavers returning to Labour?
    Apparently they're up 4 points so that would make sense
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424

    Foxy said:

    Prisons are too full and too expensive. Personally, I would immediately move all prisons out of London, to other parts of the UK where they can be of more benefit to struggling communities. I would build new prisons with facilities for prisoners to be put to work, learning valuable skills in the process. The prisons in London would be sold to property developers. For the worst, violent criminals, we would build prisons in Africa, providing a valuable source of revenue and employment for the host country, and saving a fortune in the process.

    Short stay prisons need to be close to their communities for family and social visits, and prisoners on remand.
    I wouldn't be averse to building our own Alcatraz in the Falklands for convicted terrorists.
    Current law says that they do.
    And it says it for a very good reason.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,710
    edited November 2019

    Another factor to consider is share. Now this may change tonight but remember labour have yet to burst through 34 in any poll this election. The key for them is getting into the upper 30s

    Yes, this is time to remember what Bob Worcester always said - look at share, not lead.
    Key things to look at tonight:
    1) Con share - is it holding in 41 to 42/43 range? One 39 MAY be outlier.
    2) Lab share - have already hit 34 in three polls before tonight. Can they now push above 34?
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    nico67 said:

    Not sure the government blaming Labour is going to wash . The Tories have been in charge for 9 years and have slashed the police and probation services .

    So if Patel wants to start the blame game it could backfire .

    Start the blame game? Seriously, you didn't see Cooper's tweet?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    egg said:

    Foxy said:

    Artist said:

    It's reversing the big rise in the last BMG. Their Tory leads during the campaign have been 8, 8, 13, 6

    It looks to me that their last poll was the outlier, this one does look much like the hard.

    https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1200821024406867974?s=19
    It was a big LD outlier which helps the Lab score up but also tories under 40. BMG have generally been bearish on tory score bar last weeks but lets see if the others start showing a decline!
    Labours + 5 is all from Lib Dems
    Tory + BREX 43
    Lab Lib green 51

    ROUGE POLL
    Indeed. Good for the Rouges...
  • eggegg Posts: 1,749

    Another factor to consider is share. Now this may change tonight but remember labour have yet to burst through 34 in any poll this election. The key for them is getting into the upper 30s

    I agree.
    Alternatively, they don’t need to get above 36 or within five if they are big beneficiaries of tv. Here is a poll of greens 5, is that greens 5 where lab don’t need it or squeezed.
    For me, thekey poll share is Tories, as all opponents are out to deny them majority, lots of sub 38 between now and polling day not good.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Stanley Johnson calling the British public thick and illiterate has now had nearly 5 million views , and not forgetting Bozo calling working class men , feckless , drunk , criminals is likely to go down very badly in those Midlands and Northern seats .

This discussion has been closed.