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  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    Christ, this election is boring. We need some kind of rogue poll, spectacular gaffe, black swan style event to liven things up.

    I think the exact opposite! This election is the most interesting one that I can remember... but it's also the first GE in which I've been a campaigner rather than an observer so that might have something to do with it. Putting leaflets through doors excites me much more than reading opinion polls or watching leader debates/interviews do.
    You must lead an exciting life.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited November 2019
    Brom said:

    He's been seemingly pushing this line for a few weeks now. I find for a journalist he projects what he wants to happen far too often without really understanding how the polls work.
    Yes, the mythical "doorstep" always appears to confirm the view of the journalist/activist/politician talking about it.
  • Brom said:

    He's been seemingly pushing this line for a few weeks now. I find for a journalist he projects what he wants to happen far too often without really understanding how the polls work.

    He knows how the polls works from his stint at the IPPR.

    I’ve seen his presentations on the polls, he knows what he is talking about, back in late 2016 he did some polling analysis saying that at the next GE Labour leave voters wouldn’t back the Tories saying they wanted a different type of Brexit to Tory Leavers, that they didn’t want Singapore on the Thames.

    He was right then.
    Now they have something to compare it to. I think Sunil posted earlier about polls swinging one way then the opposite in elections - 2010 understate labour, 2015 overstate labour, 2017 understate labour - is it going to swing the other way again?
    Well quite a few polls in the last 48 hrs have seen Corbyn narrowing the gap on the leadership ratings, which is what we saw in 2017.
  • Cookie said:

    There is a fantastic photo, by the way, of Boris shearing a sheep at the telegraph webpage at the moment.
    I can think of no other political party leader who can get away with stuff like this. Ed Miliband attempts to eat a bacon sandwich and gets pilloried. Boris adopts a strange squatting position while waving an electric clipper ineptly towards a sheep while shepherds look on in concern and the paper which is his main cheerleader publishes it, confident that it is a good look and that people will think better of him as a result. And it works - they do. Not everyone - for the Rogers of this world he could win the Nobel Peace Prize and they'd find a reason to vilify him - but a truly surprising number of people lap it up.
    My theory is it's that he appears to be enjoying himself. He reminds me of MacMillan in that respect (though obviously that was long before my time) - he campaigns with enthusiasm and energy and joy, and people respond on a visceral level.

    Even the BBC seems to be enjoying it:

    Mr Johnson said the Tories had high ambitions in Wales, including resolving the long delays at the Brynglas Tunnels along the M4 at Newport. He said the tunnels were blocked "like the nostrils of the Welsh dragon", adding his party would be the "Vicks inhaler". The visit to Wales began in Powys with a bid to court the farming vote at the Royal Welsh Winter Fair in Llanelwedd, joking how Jeremy Corbyn and Labour would "fleece the entire country".
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    I've been very wary of making predictions this election because, like Manuel and Jon Snow, I know nothing.

    But here's one.

    I think there's a much higher than usual probability of a black swan event, one that will do serious damage to one of the party campaigns. Two reasons for this.

    First, there is essentially no debate on policies. Partly it's that the Conservatives and Labour are so far apart that you genuinely can't have a cut-and-thrust debate that doesn't just devolve to "heartless Tories"/"unaffordable Marxists", but it's also that the Conservative manifesto, in particular, is so amazingly policy-light that there really isn't anything to report on.

    This means that any single incident, a Jennifer's Ear or a Gillian Duffy, has the potential to seize the headlines for days on end - because there really isn't anything else happening. If something of substance does happen, the affected party will find it hard to move back to their "grid"... because the grid is either empty (for the Conservatives) or fantasyland (for Labour). "Hey guys, ok you've had your fun, how about reporting on our social care proposals tomorrow?" "But... you don't have any."

    Second, the potential for unearthing something troublesome about a candidate is so much greater than previously. Every party is aware that problems can lie in candidates' Twitter or Facebook post histories, yet every day, it seems, another dodgy post is unearthed. Now apply that to all the other open-source intelligence out there. Can a party be sure that there isn't a YouTube video from 2008 with a candidate saying something outrageous? Or that a bit of automated analysis on networks of directors in the Companies House open data won't reveal some Russian money?

    This isn't new: it's the sort of thing Bellingcat does superbly. If the parties have not been awake to this, they should have been. I find it difficult to believe that neither the parties, nor any single newspaper, nor the massed ranks of Corbynista partisans, are looking in this direction.

    By definition you can't predict black swans. But I would not be at all surprised to see one.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,236
    kle4 said:

    If corbyn gets over 200 he stays on for a bit. Under 200 and he goes immediately. Making gains or standing still and hes PM.

    I think he can be PM with 250.
  • Who would be acting leader, as Tom Watson has gone?

    Corbyn. As Blair did in 2007, and as virtually all Labour leaders did prior to Brown, other than when they died in office.
  • Does anyone know what the Tory poll lead would be if all the Labour waverers firmed up behind Corbyn *and* there was a 2-3% swing from LD to Labour?

    I expect Tory backsliding to be virtually negligible but I could easily see the above happening.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329

    Brom said:

    He's been seemingly pushing this line for a few weeks now. I find for a journalist he projects what he wants to happen far too often without really understanding how the polls work.

    He knows how the polls works from his stint at the IPPR.

    I’ve seen his presentations on the polls, he knows what he is talking about, back in late 2016 he did some polling analysis saying that at the next GE Labour leave voters wouldn’t back the Tories saying they wanted a different type of Brexit to Tory Leavers, that they didn’t want Singapore on the Thames.

    He was right then.
    And the IPPR he worked for is a left wing think tank and he is very much a labour supporter
    He’s moving jobs soon to the right wing bastion in tv news Newsnight
    https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/skys-lewis-goodall-to-join-bbc-newsnight-as-policy-editor/
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Last time they managed to elect as leader the candidate Labour's enemies had paid £3 to join and vote for in order to help destroy the party.

    The question really is will they do something similar again, or will they ask: Who does Boris and Tories fear as the next leader.

    If they appoint RL-B or LP then I think it won't be long before Jo Swinson is the leader of the serious opposition. Dawn Butler and Richard Burgon are unthinkable as candidates for a serious party.

    If I were a Tory I would fear, in this order, Angela Eagle Hilary Benn, Yvette Cooper, Keir Starmer and John McDonnell. John McDonnell is a bit special in that he is an extremist but very good on the media.

    I expect Momentum and co will act according to form and find a way of finally destroying the Labour party.

    You're assuming Jo Swinson keeps her seat and remains as leader of the Liberal Democrats - and becomes serious herself.

    Jo "I will become next Prime Minister and revoke Article 50 without another referendum" Swinson is anything but serious. The Lib Dems could end this General Election with fewer MPs than it had going into the election thanks to her.
    She might lose her seat...

    But don't forget that (a) she was 10 points clear of the SNP in 2017; (b) the LDs are up more than the SNP in Scotland; and (c) her seat was more than 70% remain, which makes it one of the remainiest in the whole country.

    While she could lose, party leaders tend to get a boost, and the nature of Scottish politics is that she probably only needs 35-37% to hold the seat. I'd probably need odds of 6-1 or more to want to bet on her losing.
    YES got 38.8% in 2014 on Turnout of 91%
    In 2015 the SNP Candidate won with 40.3% on Turnout of 81.9% (the highest in the whole UK)
    In 2017 the SNP Candidate lost with 30.3% on Turnout of 78.8%

    35% is almost certainly enough for Swinson to hold.
    I hope she hangs on. It would be nice to see if she grows up
    Be much better to see her out on her erchie
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    There is a fantastic photo, by the way, of Boris shearing a sheep at the telegraph webpage at the moment.
    I can think of no other political party leader who can get away with stuff like this. Ed Miliband attempts to eat a bacon sandwich and gets pilloried. Boris adopts a strange squatting position while waving an electric clipper ineptly towards a sheep while shepherds look on in concern and the paper which is his main cheerleader publishes it, confident that it is a good look and that people will think better of him as a result. And it works - they do. Not everyone - for the Rogers of this world he could win the Nobel Peace Prize and they'd find a reason to vilify him - but a truly surprising number of people lap it up.
    My theory is it's that he appears to be enjoying himself. He reminds me of MacMillan in that respect (though obviously that was long before my time) - he campaigns with enthusiasm and energy and joy, and people respond on a visceral level.

    IMO his biggest attraction for many people (particularly apoliticals) is that he appears to not take himself at all seriously. And his main strength is also his main weakness. Because it is that very same thing - more precisely the sense that he takes nothing seriously - which turns off many other people, the more thoughtful types.
    Serious question - is it so awful for a country to have a leader who is not ideological?
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,710
    Isn't a MORI Scotland poll also due?

    There were posts late last week saying fieldwork for it had finished.
  • kle4 said:

    llef said:

    the welsh opinion poll to be released today is supposed to be "interesting"

    "It’s just one poll... but blimey. #welshpoliticalbarometer"

    https://twitter.com/roger_scully/status/1198942191105822720

    They say that about all Welsh polls.
    He does have a habit of hinting at some bombshell poll, which ends up being a big of a damp squib.
    They've only recently been a bit of a set of damp squibs because they've consistently reported much the same thing. When you put their findings in the context of the 2017 result, they look a lot more interesting.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited November 2019
    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    There is a fantastic photo, by the way, of Boris shearing a sheep at the telegraph webpage at the moment.
    I can think of no other political party leader who can get away with stuff like this. Ed Miliband attempts to eat a bacon sandwich and gets pilloried. Boris adopts a strange squatting position while waving an electric clipper ineptly towards a sheep while shepherds look on in concern and the paper which is his main cheerleader publishes it, confident that it is a good look and that people will think better of him as a result. And it works - they do. Not everyone - for the Rogers of this world he could win the Nobel Peace Prize and they'd find a reason to vilify him - but a truly surprising number of people lap it up.
    My theory is it's that he appears to be enjoying himself. He reminds me of MacMillan in that respect (though obviously that was long before my time) - he campaigns with enthusiasm and energy and joy, and people respond on a visceral level.

    IMO his biggest attraction for many people (particularly apoliticals) is that he appears to not take himself at all seriously. And his main strength is also his main weakness. Because it is that very same thing - more precisely the sense that he takes nothing seriously - which turns off many other people, the more thoughtful types.
    Serious question - is it so awful for a country to have a leader who is not ideological?
    It would be nice to have one that believed in something, anything, other than his own entitlement to sit in the chair.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329
    MikeL said:

    It's been a feature of PB for years that many posters simply post what they want to happen and then dress it up as a prediction.

    But surely we should expect better from a journalist with a major news organisation.

    I think there is an element of human nature in it, there is confirmation bias
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    Brom said:

    He's been seemingly pushing this line for a few weeks now. I find for a journalist he projects what he wants to happen far too often without really understanding how the polls work.

    He knows how the polls works from his stint at the IPPR.

    I’ve seen his presentations on the polls, he knows what he is talking about, back in late 2016 he did some polling analysis saying that at the next GE Labour leave voters wouldn’t back the Tories saying they wanted a different type of Brexit to Tory Leavers, that they didn’t want Singapore on the Thames.

    He was right then.
    And the IPPR he worked for is a left wing think tank and he is very much a labour supporter
    He’s moving jobs soon to the right wing bastion in tv news Newsnight
    https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/skys-lewis-goodall-to-join-bbc-newsnight-as-policy-editor/
    Following in his hero Paul Mason’s footsteps
  • Cookie said:


    He was the one I liked the least in the Brown government. And then he lost his seat and gave a decent and generous concession speech, and he turned almost instantly into a human. It wasn't the strictly effect for me (oh, the inanity) but an interview I heard with him on the radio a couple of weeks after. Came across as totally normal. Why can't politicians do this while they're in office? I think they spend so much time in the Westminster bubble that they think the constant baiting of the opposition is a normal way to behave, rather than making you appear a jerk.

    I think perhaps because it is feared it will be taken as a sign of weakness? Like you the Strictly thing held no interest for me at all. But I saw glimpses of his human side and willingness to appear normal whilst he was still in office and certainly my view of him was confirmed once he had lost his seat. I was particularly impressed hearing him talk about his very acute speech impediment and how he overcame it on an ongoing basis.
  • SunnyJimSunnyJim Posts: 1,106



    Even the BBC seems to be enjoying it:

    Mr Johnson said the Tories had high ambitions in Wales, including resolving the long delays at the Brynglas Tunnels along the M4 at Newport. He said the tunnels were blocked "like the nostrils of the Welsh dragon", adding his party would be the "Vicks inhaler". The visit to Wales began in Powys with a bid to court the farming vote at the Royal Welsh Winter Fair in Llanelwedd, joking how Jeremy Corbyn and Labour would "fleece the entire country".

    Boris is the sort of d*ckhead every group of mates has; you roll your eyes but secretly love him.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,613
    edited November 2019

    Brom said:

    He's been seemingly pushing this line for a few weeks now. I find for a journalist he projects what he wants to happen far too often without really understanding how the polls work.

    He knows how the polls works from his stint at the IPPR.

    I’ve seen his presentations on the polls, he knows what he is talking about, back in late 2016 he did some polling analysis saying that at the next GE Labour leave voters wouldn’t back the Tories saying they wanted a different type of Brexit to Tory Leavers, that they didn’t want Singapore on the Thames.

    He was right then.
    And the IPPR he worked for is a left wing think tank and he is very much a labour supporter
    He’s moving jobs soon to the right wing bastion in tv news Newsnight
    https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/skys-lewis-goodall-to-join-bbc-newsnight-as-policy-editor/
    Newsnight think they are going to need a double-decker outrage bus when Boris gets elected?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,236
    edited November 2019
    isam said:

    The affection for politicians past and disdain for the present batch always reminds me of the conversation about art between M. Danglars & The Count of Monte Cristo

    “If you will permit me, I shall be happy to show you my picture gallery, composed entirely of works by the ancient masters—warranted as such. Not a modern picture among them. I cannot endure the modern school of painting.”

    “You are perfectly right in objecting to them, for this one great fault—that they have not yet had time to become old.”

    Yes, "X was better back then" is usually bollox, regardless of what "X" is. Films, music, painting, TV, fashion, pubs, buildings, "things", whatever.

    But politics? That might just be an exception to the rule. It does seem particularly crass and dumbed down atm.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,381

    Does anyone know what the Tory poll lead would be if all the Labour waverers firmed up behind Corbyn *and* there was a 2-3% swing from LD to Labour?

    I expect Tory backsliding to be virtually negligible but I could easily see the above happening.

    7-8% probably.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,613
    SunnyJim said:



    Even the BBC seems to be enjoying it:

    Mr Johnson said the Tories had high ambitions in Wales, including resolving the long delays at the Brynglas Tunnels along the M4 at Newport. He said the tunnels were blocked "like the nostrils of the Welsh dragon", adding his party would be the "Vicks inhaler". The visit to Wales began in Powys with a bid to court the farming vote at the Royal Welsh Winter Fair in Llanelwedd, joking how Jeremy Corbyn and Labour would "fleece the entire country".

    Boris is the sort of d*ckhead every group of mates has; you roll your eyes but secretly love him.
    Even when he doesn't stand his round. And goes off with your girlfriend.

    Cuz he's a legend.....
  • JasonJason Posts: 1,614
    I predict whatever this poll says, there will be a daft over reaction to it.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Who would be acting leader, as Tom Watson has gone?

    Corbyn. As Blair did in 2007, and as virtually all Labour leaders did prior to Brown, other than when they died in office.
    On which basis, and on the principle that Theresa May was adjudged by Betfair to have stood down only when Boris Johnson took over, is 1.34 on Corbyn surviving to 2020 free money?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,291
    edited November 2019
    Lewis also going against OGH and predicting a low turnout

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1198987000080154625
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,613
    Jason said:

    I predict whatever this poll says, there will be a daft over reaction to it.

    Well if it turns out to be meh, we can at least get locked and loaded - and go on a pollster hunt.....
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,710

    MikeL said:

    It's been a feature of PB for years that many posters simply post what they want to happen and then dress it up as a prediction.

    But surely we should expect better from a journalist with a major news organisation.

    I think there is an element of human nature in it, there is confirmation bias
    Oh sure.

    Just the same as people thinking their football team is going to win (or that the referee is biased against their team!)
  • PaulM said:

    Brom said:

    He's been seemingly pushing this line for a few weeks now. I find for a journalist he projects what he wants to happen far too often without really understanding how the polls work.
    He's right though when you look at the cross tabs. The undecideds skew towards people who voted Labour last time.
    Pah! Experts! Who needs them???

    :D:D
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729

    Brom said:

    He's been seemingly pushing this line for a few weeks now. I find for a journalist he projects what he wants to happen far too often without really understanding how the polls work.

    He knows how the polls works from his stint at the IPPR.

    I’ve seen his presentations on the polls, he knows what he is talking about, back in late 2016 he did some polling analysis saying that at the next GE Labour leave voters wouldn’t back the Tories saying they wanted a different type of Brexit to Tory Leavers, that they didn’t want Singapore on the Thames.

    He was right then.
    And the IPPR he worked for is a left wing think tank and he is very much a labour supporter
    He’s moving jobs soon to the right wing bastion in tv news Newsnight
    https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/skys-lewis-goodall-to-join-bbc-newsnight-as-policy-editor/
    Newsnight think they are going to need a double-decker outrage bus when Boris gets elected?
    Newsnight tradition innit. Paul Mason IIRC who is about as Marxist as you can get (who tim tried to persuade us was middle of the road,) now another hard leftie joins the list./
  • What's that noise? The sound of people running away from Labour Party if another Corbynite is elected. The Tory lead currently is a shocking indictment of this weak, incompetent, non engaging leadership cult that is ideological, dogmatic, backward, class and conflict -ridden.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,236
    MikeL said:

    It's been a feature of PB for years that many posters simply post what they want to happen and then dress it up as a prediction.

    Not me. At the outset I called this GE as Con majority of 60. And I'd go higher now if anything.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    GIN1138 said:

    Lewis also going against OGH and predicting a lot turnout

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1198987000080154625

    If polling is to be believed then low turnout and Labour closing the gap are pretty much entirely contradictory positions.
  • Endillion said:

    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Last time they managed to elect as leader the candidate Labour's enemies had paid £3 to join and vote for in order to help destroy the party.

    The question really is will they do something similar again, or will they ask: Who does Boris and Tories fear as the next leader.

    If they appoint RL-B or LP then I think it won't be long before Jo Swinson is the leader of the serious opposition. Dawn Butler and Richard Burgon are unthinkable as candidates for a serious party.

    If I were a Tory I would fear, in this order, Angela Eagle Hilary Benn, Yvette Cooper, Keir Starmer and John McDonnell. John McDonnell is a bit special in that he is an extremist but very good on the media.

    I expect Momentum and co will act according to form and find a way of finally destroying the Labour party.

    I think Kier Starmer is pretty useless. I'm not that impressed by Angela Eagle. Hilary Benn is a kindly uncle figure, not a leader. John McDonnell is dangerously articulate for a man of his views. Yvette Cooper I rate, but she's also sunk without trace in the last four years.
    I was with you entirely until the last sentence. Cooper was leading the opposition (if not actually Leader of the Opposition) pretty effectively throughout the anti-No-Deal/anti-Brexit incident. While she has no chance of becoming leader, I think she's one of the few Labour MPs (maybe all MPs) whose reputation has been enhanced recently.
    Cooper would, by a country mile, be the best leader Labour could elect. Therefore a virtual certainty to be discarded. I've even forgiven her for HIPS - a typical half-baked civil service brainwave that a minister should have resisted but all too often doesn't.
    I know it is very unlikely now but if her hubby ever decided to get back into Parliament I think he would also bring a lot of support back to Labour.
    But there's the rub - I only see Ed Balls returning to front line politics if and when Labour becomes re-electable. Keir Starmer as leader would be a meaningful move in such a direction, but I imagine the membership will instead opt for an out and out leftie to succeed Corbyn.
  • Does anyone know what the Tory poll lead would be if all the Labour waverers firmed up behind Corbyn *and* there was a 2-3% swing from LD to Labour?

    I expect Tory backsliding to be virtually negligible but I could easily see the above happening.

    Would 40% of the population back Labour this time? In the absence of a Tory dementia tax, a free pass for the Labour manifesto, the exposure of weakness suffered by May, the chaos engendered by the terrible attacks during GE2017 that gave at least specious credibility to Corbyn's argument that the police were underfunded? So far - thank God - the perfect storm that boosted him so much last time just hasn't materialised so far.

    And every day Boris and the Tories maintain a big lead means more postal votes locking that lead in as a partial insurance against a last-minute tightening.

    Look, I'm trying to be optimistic, ok? I'll even throw in one extra bonus of a winter campaign: it blunts the edge Labour has in the ground game, since canvassing's just no fun in this weather...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,613
    10 minutes to the Welsh Surge Klaxon.

    10 minutes.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,838
    Damn! A Welsh poll due in eleven minutes and I have to go and pick the kids up. I will be VERY disappointed if I return and the political landscape is still largely intact...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,236
    TimT said:

    Serious question - is it so awful for a country to have a leader who is not ideological?

    Not at all. But to have one who lacks substance and character is not ideal.
  • Brom said:

    He's been seemingly pushing this line for a few weeks now. I find for a journalist he projects what he wants to happen far too often without really understanding how the polls work.

    He knows how the polls works from his stint at the IPPR.

    I’ve seen his presentations on the polls, he knows what he is talking about, back in late 2016 he did some polling analysis saying that at the next GE Labour leave voters wouldn’t back the Tories saying they wanted a different type of Brexit to Tory Leavers, that they didn’t want Singapore on the Thames.

    He was right then.
    And the IPPR he worked for is a left wing think tank and he is very much a labour supporter
    He’s moving jobs soon to the right wing bastion in tv news Newsnight
    https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/skys-lewis-goodall-to-join-bbc-newsnight-as-policy-editor/
    Newsnight think they are going to need a double-decker outrage bus when Boris gets elected?
    Newsnight tradition innit. Paul Mason IIRC who is about as Marxist as you can get (who tim tried to persuade us was middle of the road,) now another hard leftie joins the list./
    You allege lefty bias on the day the BBC had to apologise for editing out the debate audience laughing at Boris?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-50546115
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,291

    GIN1138 said:

    Lewis also going against OGH and predicting a lot turnout

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1198987000080154625

    If polling is to be believed then low turnout and Labour closing the gap are pretty much entirely contradictory positions.
    Someone needs to point him to PB.COM so he can learn what the polls are really saying.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    Cookie said:

    Damn! A Welsh poll due in eleven minutes and I have to go and pick the kids up. I will be VERY disappointed if I return and the political landscape is still largely intact...

    Tell them to wait, this is more important.
  • kinabalu said:

    TimT said:

    Serious question - is it so awful for a country to have a leader who is not ideological?

    Not at all. But to have one who lacks substance and character is not ideal.
    If there's one thing that Boris lacks it is not character. He is a real character.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329
    GIN1138 said:

    Lewis also going against OGH and predicting a low turnout

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1198987000080154625

    I was wondering if OGH is going to downplay the Tory chances to push up his chances of winning the bet. He is in a privileged position
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,212
    Incontinence pads at the ready :D
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    kinabalu said:

    TimT said:

    Serious question - is it so awful for a country to have a leader who is not ideological?

    Not at all. But to have one who lacks substance and character is not ideal.
    Agree. We need a leader to lead. To make decisions and show by example.

    We definitely don't want a fence-sitter I'm with you on that one.
  • SunnyJimSunnyJim Posts: 1,106
    edited November 2019
    If had to guess based on the flow of Betfair money over the last few minutes i'd say the Welsh poll isn't that great for the Tories.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Tory lead down to 7 points with ICM.

    Con 41
    Lab 34
    Lib 13
    Brex 4

    Oh dear.
  • PaulM said:

    Brom said:

    He's been seemingly pushing this line for a few weeks now. I find for a journalist he projects what he wants to happen far too often without really understanding how the polls work.
    He's right though when you look at the cross tabs. The undecideds skew towards people who voted Labour last time.
    True but Lewis Goodall's wider point is not because he's choosing to focus only on one side of the argument rather than the bigger picture. The other side of the argument is that those who do already say they will vote Labour are less firmed up than Conservative voters, so there is also more potential for Labour to lose some of their support.

    In any balanced view, you would come to the conclusion that the larger proportion of Labour undecideds is probably cancelled out by the lower proportion of nailed on Labour decideds.

  • MangoMango Posts: 1,019

    kinabalu said:

    TimT said:

    Serious question - is it so awful for a country to have a leader who is not ideological?

    Not at all. But to have one who lacks substance and character is not ideal.
    If there's one thing that Boris lacks it is not character. He is a real character.
    The Wolf says hello
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    GIN1138 said:

    Lewis also going against OGH and predicting a low turnout

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1198987000080154625

    I was wondering if OGH is going to downplay the Tory chances to push up his chances of winning the bet. He is in a privileged position
    I don't think OGH is a ramper.
  • TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimT said:

    Serious question - is it so awful for a country to have a leader who is not ideological?

    Not at all. But to have one who lacks substance and character is not ideal.
    Agree. We need a leader to lead. To make decisions and show by example.

    We definitely don't want a fence-sitter I'm with you on that one.
    Somebody call the burn ward . . .
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 41% (-1)
    LAB: 34% (+2)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    BREX: 4% (-1)

    via @ICMResearch, 22 - 25 Nov
    Chgs. w/ 18 Nov
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    RoyalBlue said:

    Tory lead down to 7 points with ICM.

    Con 41
    Lab 34
    Lib 13
    Brex 4

    Oh dear.

    Headless chicken panic mode enabled.

    :D
  • timmotimmo Posts: 1,469
    As I said this morning the wobble is on and has started now with ICM
  • SunnyJimSunnyJim Posts: 1,106
    RoyalBlue said:

    Tory lead down to 7 points with ICM.

    Con 41
    Lab 34
    Lib 13
    Brex 4

    Oh dear.

    Ah, that's what triggered the price moves.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    The affection for politicians past and disdain for the present batch always reminds me of the conversation about art between M. Danglars & The Count of Monte Cristo

    “If you will permit me, I shall be happy to show you my picture gallery, composed entirely of works by the ancient masters—warranted as such. Not a modern picture among them. I cannot endure the modern school of painting.”

    “You are perfectly right in objecting to them, for this one great fault—that they have not yet had time to become old.”

    Yes, "X was better back then" is usually bollox, regardless of what "X" is. Films, music, painting, TV, fashion, pubs, buildings, "things", whatever.

    But politics? That might just be an exception to the rule. It does seem particularly crass and dumbed down atm.
    Maybe, but I seem to remember PB people speaking fondly for Brown/Blair/Kennedy when EdM/Clegg led their parties

    It’s easier to express liking for people who can’t do anything wrong now, while ignoring the things they did wrong then. They can’t let you down.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,570
    edited November 2019

    GIN1138 said:

    Lewis also going against OGH and predicting a low turnout

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1198987000080154625

    I was wondering if OGH is going to downplay the Tory chances to push up his chances of winning the bet. He is in a privileged position
    That is a post that could be very badly misinterpreted and probably not something you want to be saying. On a betting site it is a far more offensive suggestion than many of the more lurid swearing posts we sometimes indulge in on here.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,130

    Endillion said:

    kinabalu said:

    Endillion said:

    Er, Rebecca Prolongs-Ceilidh.

    In fairness to her, she's the only Continuity Corbyn (CoCo?) candidate I can see actually doing reasonably well. She has at least something in the way of gravitas that is totally lacking from the likes of Rayner, Pidcock, Butler etc.

    In this country gravitas is not required to be an electorally successful leader of a big political party. Such is about to be confirmed beyond all doubt 17 days from now.
    Hmm, you're right that "gravitas" isn't quite the word I'm looking for. "Substance" isn't much better. "Presence"?

    Alternatively, is it perhaps the case that the major party leader with the most of [whatever the right word is] is currently ahead in the polls?
    Are we listing New Order album titles?
    Well, if we allow Joy Division, how about "New Dawn Fades"...?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsT_PvMR4j4
  • GIN1138 said:

    Lewis also going against OGH and predicting a low turnout

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1198987000080154625

    He's also paying too much respect to tribal loyalty, which is at an all-time low.
  • XtrainXtrain Posts: 341

    Cookie said:


    He was the one I liked the least in the Brown government. And then he lost his seat and gave a decent and generous concession speech, and he turned almost instantly into a human. It wasn't the strictly effect for me (oh, the inanity) but an interview I heard with him on the radio a couple of weeks after. Came across as totally normal. Why can't politicians do this while they're in office? I think they spend so much time in the Westminster bubble that they think the constant baiting of the opposition is a normal way to behave, rather than making you appear a jerk.

    I think perhaps because it is feared it will be taken as a sign of weakness? Like you the Strictly thing held no interest for me at all. But I saw glimpses of his human side and willingness to appear normal whilst he was still in office and certainly my view of him was confirmed once he had lost his seat. I was particularly impressed hearing him talk about his very acute speech impediment and how he overcame it on an ongoing basis.
    He used to come across well on This Week.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Been listening to Ed Millibands 'Reasons to be Cheerful' podcasts while on the bike, treadmill & so on at the gym. Comes across as a rather gentle, but thoughtful and self-deprecating chap, who nevertheless learns from mistakes and thinks about what he's doing. Labour could do a lot worse than go back to him.

    The affection for politicians past and disdain for the present batch always reminds me of the conversation about art between M. Danglars & The Count of Monte Cristo

    “If you will permit me, I shall be happy to show you my picture gallery, composed entirely of works by the ancient masters—warranted as such. Not a modern picture among them. I cannot endure the modern school of painting.”

    “You are perfectly right in objecting to them, for this one great fault—that they have not yet had time to become old.”
    Touch of class there, Iam! Not just a pretty face, but a man of letters too.
    Merci mon ami!
  • *Sits rocking back and forth saying Margin of Error, Margin of Error, Margin of Error ...* 🤮
  • Endillion said:

    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Last time they managed to elect as leader the candidate Labour's enemies had paid £3 to join and vote for in order to help destroy the party.

    The question really is will they do something similar again, or will they ask: Who does Boris and Tories fear as the next leader.

    If they appoint RL-B or LP then I think it won't be long before Jo Swinson is the leader of the serious opposition. Dawn Butler and Richard Burgon are unthinkable as candidates for a serious party.

    If I were a Tory I would fear, in this order, Angela Eagle Hilary Benn, Yvette Cooper, Keir Starmer and John McDonnell. John McDonnell is a bit special in that he is an extremist but very good on the media.

    I expect Momentum and co will act according to form and find a way of finally destroying the Labour party.

    I think Kier Starmer is pretty useless. I'm not that impressed by Angela Eagle. Hilary Benn is a kindly uncle figure, not a leader. John McDonnell is dangerously articulate for a man of his views. Yvette Cooper I rate, but she's also sunk without trace in the last four years.
    I was with you entirely until the last sentence. Cooper was leading the opposition (if not actually Leader of the Opposition) pretty effectively throughout the anti-No-Deal/anti-Brexit incident. While she has no chance of becoming leader, I think she's one of the few Labour MPs (maybe all MPs) whose reputation has been enhanced recently.
    Cooper would, by a country mile, be the best leader Labour could elect. Therefore a virtual certainty to be discarded. I've even forgiven her for HIPS - a typical half-baked civil service brainwave that a minister should have resisted but all too often doesn't.
    I know it is very unlikely now but if her hubby ever decided to get back into Parliament I think he would also bring a lot of support back to Labour.
    Ed Balls used to be one of those politicians people took an instinctive dislike to, so unless Strictly has changed that, which it might have done, I'm not sure he is the king across the water.
    I really don't understand that. I always found him a very human and sympathetic figure. But obviously you know the party better. I just think it is a shame.
    To be clear, I am not and have never been a member of the Labour Party. My posts contain no inside knowledge.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329

    GIN1138 said:

    Lewis also going against OGH and predicting a lot turnout

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1198987000080154625

    If polling is to be believed then low turnout and Labour closing the gap are pretty much entirely contradictory positions.
    I was thinking the same thing - you can’t have undecided voters breaking for labour but not voting.

    SNP surge in Wales shock.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/03/can-voters-outside-scotland-vote-snp
  • JasonJason Posts: 1,614
    felix said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 41% (-1)
    LAB: 34% (+2)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    BREX: 4% (-1)

    via @ICMResearch, 22 - 25 Nov
    Chgs. w/ 18 Nov

    If Labour have gained that with the WASPI announcement, it will encourage Labour to promise even more giveaways. Worrying for the Tories, but it's still a 7 point lead, and I reckon they would have snapped your arm off if you'd offered that at the start of the campaign.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,236
    Con maj right back out to 1.52.

    On the slide big time.

    People starting to see through the clown?
  • SunnyJimSunnyJim Posts: 1,106

    *Sits rocking back and forth saying Margin of Error, Margin of Error, Margin of Error ...* 🤮

    Hopefully a useful outlier that will concentrate the minds of the complacent.
  • Endillion said:

    Who would be acting leader, as Tom Watson has gone?

    Corbyn. As Blair did in 2007, and as virtually all Labour leaders did prior to Brown, other than when they died in office.
    On which basis, and on the principle that Theresa May was adjudged by Betfair to have stood down only when Boris Johnson took over, is 1.34 on Corbyn surviving to 2020 free money?
    I would review the rules very carefully but it looks a good price to me, if it's as you've said.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    kinabalu said:

    Con maj right back out to 1.52.

    On the slide big time.

    People starting to see through the clown?

    I think they just saw a new poll.
  • Endillion said:

    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Last time they managed to elect as leader the candidate Labour's enemies had paid £3 to join and vote for in order to help destroy the party.

    The question really is will they do something similar again, or will they ask: Who does Boris and Tories fear as the next leader.

    If they appoint RL-B or LP then I think it won't be long before Jo Swinson is the leader of the serious opposition. Dawn Butler and Richard Burgon are unthinkable as candidates for a serious party.

    If I were a Tory I would fear, in this order, Angela Eagle Hilary Benn, Yvette Cooper, Keir Starmer and John McDonnell. John McDonnell is a bit special in that he is an extremist but very good on the media.

    I expect Momentum and co will act according to form and find a way of finally destroying the Labour party.

    I think Kier Starmer is pretty useless. I'm not that impressed by Angela Eagle. Hilary Benn is a kindly uncle figure, not a leader. John McDonnell is dangerously articulate for a man of his views. Yvette Cooper I rate, but she's also sunk without trace in the last four years.
    I was with you entirely until the last sentence. Cooper was leading the opposition (if not actually Leader of the Opposition) pretty effectively throughout the anti-No-Deal/anti-Brexit incident. While she has no chance of becoming leader, I think she's one of the few Labour MPs (maybe all MPs) whose reputation has been enhanced recently.
    Cooper would, by a country mile, be the best leader Labour could elect. Therefore a virtual certainty to be discarded. I've even forgiven her for HIPS - a typical half-baked civil service brainwave that a minister should have resisted but all too often doesn't.
    I know it is very unlikely now but if her hubby ever decided to get back into Parliament I think he would also bring a lot of support back to Labour.
    Ed Balls used to be one of those politicians people took an instinctive dislike to, so unless Strictly has changed that, which it might have done, I'm not sure he is the king across the water.
    I really don't understand that. I always found him a very human and sympathetic figure. But obviously you know the party better. I just think it is a shame.
    To be clear, I am not and have never been a member of the Labour Party. My posts contain no inside knowledge.
    Apologies. No offence intended.
  • It’s on.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Westminster voting intention:KABOOM

    CON: 41% (-1)
    LAB: 34% (+2)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    BREX: 4% (-1)

    via
    @ICMResearch
    , 22 - 25 Nov
    Chgs. w/ 18 Nov
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,291
    felix said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 41% (-1)
    LAB: 34% (+2)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    BREX: 4% (-1)

    via @ICMResearch, 22 - 25 Nov
    Chgs. w/ 18 Nov

    Here we go. :D
  • camelcamel Posts: 815

    It’s on.

    Ah Mr Battery, I was expecting you.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729
    edited November 2019

    GIN1138 said:

    Lewis also going against OGH and predicting a lot turnout

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1198987000080154625

    If polling is to be believed then low turnout and Labour closing the gap are pretty much entirely contradictory positions.
    I was thinking the same thing - you can’t have undecided voters breaking for labour but not voting.

    SNP surge in Wales shock.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/03/can-voters-outside-scotland-vote-snp
    They walk amongst us...
  • We will need to see more polls - but if it gets any closer let’s just say I’m glad I kept that bet on Corbyn as PM and Labour minority Government
  • GIN1138 said:

    felix said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 41% (-1)
    LAB: 34% (+2)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    BREX: 4% (-1)

    via @ICMResearch, 22 - 25 Nov
    Chgs. w/ 18 Nov

    Here we go. :D
    Are Coalition of Chaos getting back together???
  • Westminster voting intention:KABOOM

    CON: 41% (-1)
    LAB: 34% (+2)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    BREX: 4% (-1)

    via
    @ICMResearch
    , 22 - 25 Nov
    Chgs. w/ 18 Nov

    It is amusing when Tories in the 40s and Labour in the low 30s is a "KABOOM" from BJO.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    GIN1138 said:

    Lewis also going against OGH and predicting a lot turnout

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1198987000080154625

    If polling is to be believed then low turnout and Labour closing the gap are pretty much entirely contradictory positions.
    I was thinking the same thing - you can’t have undecided voters breaking for labour but not voting.
    I said the same thing earlier - higher turnout should benefit Labour if the undecideds are Labour-inclined, not lower turnout.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,236

    If there's one thing that Boris lacks it is not character. He is a real character.

    He is one yet has none.

    Hey I rather like that - Hats off me.
  • peter_from_putneypeter_from_putney Posts: 6,956
    edited November 2019
    BluerBlue said:

    Does anyone know what the Tory poll lead would be if all the Labour waverers firmed up behind Corbyn *and* there was a 2-3% swing from LD to Labour?

    I expect Tory backsliding to be virtually negligible but I could easily see the above happening.

    Would 40% of the population back Labour this time? In the absence of a Tory dementia tax, a free pass for the Labour manifesto, the exposure of weakness suffered by May, the chaos engendered by the terrible attacks during GE2017 that gave at least specious credibility to Corbyn's argument that the police were underfunded? So far - thank God - the perfect storm that boosted him so much last time just hasn't materialised so far.

    And every day Boris and the Tories maintain a big lead means more postal votes locking that lead in as a partial insurance against a last-minute tightening.

    Look, I'm trying to be optimistic, ok? I'll even throw in one extra bonus of a winter campaign: it blunts the edge Labour has in the ground game, since canvassing's just no fun in this weather...
    "And every day Boris and the Tories maintain a big lead means more postal votes locking that lead in as a partial insurance against a last-minute tightening."
    Indeed so ... which reminds me, I'm still waiting to see those immaculately manicured, purple varnished finger nails feature when inserting Smithsonian postal votes into a Bedford pillar box.
  • Labour up in Wales and leading again. It’s on.
  • Cummings has to go!
  • Westminster voting intention:KABOOM

    CON: 41% (-1)
    LAB: 34% (+2)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    BREX: 4% (-1)

    via
    @ICMResearch
    , 22 - 25 Nov
    Chgs. w/ 18 Nov

    Evening all. Political party that promises increasing amounts of free stuff to more and more voters becomes more popular shock.
  • GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123
    Man the life boats.
  • Fucking sickening.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    Man the life boats.

    PB Tories first, women and children a distant second. :)
  • “ Just three weeks ago, there was a fifteen-point gap between the two men on a ‘best Prime Minister’ question. Now, that gap has shrunk to just five points.”
  • 4.5% swing Lab to Tory.

    Which would be in line with an 11.4% Tory lead nationwide.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    That poll is very much what you would have expected around this time in 2017!
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Jason said:

    felix said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 41% (-1)
    LAB: 34% (+2)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    BREX: 4% (-1)

    via @ICMResearch, 22 - 25 Nov
    Chgs. w/ 18 Nov

    If Labour have gained that with the WASPI announcement, it will encourage Labour to promise even more giveaways. Worrying for the Tories, but it's still a 7 point lead, and I reckon they would have snapped your arm off if you'd offered that at the start of the campaign.
    Survation 1 day of 3 was including BJ QT Car Crash
    ICM 2 days of 3 was including BJ QT Car Crash
    Waits for first poll entirely after BJ QT Car Crash

    40% / 37% ENTIRELY Possible with COMRES
    Still double fig leads with most pollsters though
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,381

    Labour up in Wales and leading again. It’s on.

    Labour ought to lead in Wales. That's still a swing of 4.5% since 2017, pretty well in line with the overall national swing.
  • Sean_F said:

    Does anyone know what the Tory poll lead would be if all the Labour waverers firmed up behind Corbyn *and* there was a 2-3% swing from LD to Labour?

    I expect Tory backsliding to be virtually negligible but I could easily see the above happening.

    7-8% probably.
    Thanks. That looks like where we’re at.
  • Labour will go higher.
  • Based on the polls today my thread from yesterday morning looks bloody brilliant. #LegendaryModesty #LewisGoodallWasRight
  • Although I advocated it at the time, Boris's minimalist manifesto looks to have been a catastrophic blunder. It's made the Tories look like they only have to turn up and that Jezza is the only one who cares. What a debacle.
  • Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 689
    What I said earlier. Corbyn not popular in Wales but Doris even less. Plaid being squeezed - lib dems fading... BXP going nowhere.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    Labour will go higher.
    You said it would be 37/35 and then gave up on a hung parliament a few days ago so you've certainly covered all bases.
This discussion has been closed.