I'm sure he'll send out a memo: "Candidates are reminded to stick ONLY to those public outbursts of stupidity and cruelty which have been provided by head office"
Not sure why that means they've been so quiet so far though.
They probably judge that 2017’s initial onslaught against Corbyn was what helped him to consolidate the opposition, so they want to be more low key this time.
Do you think it is working? Labour seem to be getting a bounce at the expense of the LDs regardless.
Just for shits and giggles, what do we think the polling and GE2019 might look like if it were still on for 12th December and...
(1) The Tories (led by Stewart or Hammond) had campaigned on a 2nd referendum plus Remain platform on the basis of Cameron’s Deal+ (they’d looked at Leave, and couldn’t reach an agreement in the national interest they could in good faith recommend, so were pledging a new vote on a new - improved - Deal inside the EU instead) (2) The Lib Dems were still led by Swinson but with no Tory defectors, just from Corbyn’s Labour (3) Labour was the same current shitshow (4) The Brexit Party was full-on billy bollocks for Brexit and led by Farage, going utterly apeshit about the Tory position (5) Sturgeon was still the same and basically trying it on (again) with a 2nd indyref lush
A good London poll for the Tories, but a problem for them is that the marginal seats in London are mainly Remain-ish Tory (several of which are more at risk from Lib Dems). There is limited pick-up potential - Enfield Southgate and Dagenham look okay prospects, maybe Croydon Central at a stretch, but they face a bad map in the capital really.
Just for shits and giggles, what do we think the polling and GE2019 might look like if it were still on for 12th December and...
(1) The Tories (led by Stewart or Hammond) had campaigned on a 2nd referendum plus Remain platform on the basis of Cameron’s Deal+ (they’d looked at Leave, and couldn’t reach an agreement in the national interest they could in good faith recommend, so were pledging a new vote on a new - improved - Deal inside the EU instead) (2) The Lib Dems were still led by Swinson but with no Tory defectors, just from Corbyn’s Labour (3) Labour was the same current shitshow (4) The Brexit Party was full-on billy bollocks for Brexit and led by Farage, going utterly apeshit about the Tory position (5) Sturgeon was still the same and basically trying it on (again) with a 2nd indyref lush
On topic, if Labour doing this badly in London then they are going to get smashed all over Britain.
... in the GE this Thursday. Oh, wait...
Labour were 18% behind the Tories 37 days before the 2017 GE, just saying.
You don't think that since 2017, people might just have noticed that flocking to Corbyn simply led to completely fucked up Govt.? And that many, many might not want to repeat that mistake?
"Why are these successive Conservative governments so shit?" "It's Labour's fault"
Comedy central perhaps, but it has an element of truth. If a competent Labour Party had coherent policies, the Conservatives would be in electoral oblivion for at least 10 years, maybe 15.
The Conservative's victory will largely be down to the Labour Party's complete, utter and total ineptness. The current Tory party should be unelectable on any absolute basis, but relative to opposition....
Sorry, but I'll never get over this most plaintive of whines: "if you think the government is shit, blame the people who didn't vote for it!" It's a work of tragic beauty. Truly one for the ages.
You do understand the difference in effectiveness between a majority and a minority government in our system, don't you? So a small number of people shifting Con > Lab had a colossal effect not primarily on the identity of the governing party (although they did saddle us with the DUP), but on its ability to govern. That much is patently obvious, even for a lefty.
No that's not my point. Labour have increased 4% since May. Now, okay, that 'might' be MoE.
But supposing it isn't? Supposing in fact that Labour hit the bottom a few months ago and they're starting to pick up? That, I would suggest, has been more-than-hinted at by some recent polling.
It feels like proper bunfight between parties in a general election campaign. Arguing over debates. Sneaky Tax. Seems more a referendum on NHS than Brexit? Is it just me, or does it no longer feel like Parliament v the People? What happened to the Parliament v the people campaign?
Another way it feels different than a week ago, it seemed leave vote was all united behind Con, remain too neatly split between Lab and LDem? Now thanks to Farage hardline on Boris deal and harsh words about how patronising Tories are being to Brexit Party over what constitutes good deal and leave, yougov cross-breaks show BXP taking 6% of 2017 Lab voters and 14% of 2017 Tory voters?
More lies. Where was the unilateral exit in the original plan?
I don't engage with people who falsely accuse me of lying.
do you engage with people who correctly accuse you of lying ? :-)
If I can find any, yes of course.
I believe youre voting LD so shouldnt be a log wait
Ms Swinson has been doing an excellent job trying to dissuade me from voting LibDem.
How so, she seems to be doing OK form this ex-Tory's perspective. A little lightweight so far, but no more so than the alternatives.
She’s a bit lightweight, but compared to the bantamweights Corbo and Bunter, that’s okay. I like her. She seems like a nice lady. She does have the air of a primary school teacher, but that’s mostly the colourful dangly earrings. The opprobrium she attracts on here is bizarre.
Not that bizarre. Most posters on here are pale, male and stale. There is an undercurrent of jealousy, misogyny, and bullying at the prospect of a younger woman as party leader shouting the odds as though she was a normal politician.
My mum is neither male nor pale, she says she can't stand Swinson.
No that's not my point. Labour have increased 4% since May. Now, okay, that 'might' be MoE.
But supposing it isn't? Supposing in fact that Labour hit the bottom a few months ago and they're starting to pick up? That, I would suggest, has been more-than-hinted at by some recent polling.
Clutching at straws? Perhaps. Perhaps not.
You're missing the fact the Tories improved their position by more.
On topic, if Labour doing this badly in London then they are going to get smashed all over Britain.
... in the GE this Thursday. Oh, wait...
Labour were 18% behind the Tories 37 days before the 2017 GE, just saying.
You don't think that since 2017, people might just have noticed that flocking to Corbyn simply led to completely fucked up Govt.? And that many, many might not want to repeat that mistake?
"Why are these successive Conservative governments so shit?" "It's Labour's fault"
Comedy central perhaps, but it has an element of truth. If a competent Labour Party had coherent policies, the Conservatives would be in electoral oblivion for at least 10 years, maybe 15.
The Conservative's victory will largely be down to the Labour Party's complete, utter and total ineptness. The current Tory party should be unelectable on any absolute basis, but relative to opposition....
Sorry, but I'll never get over this most plaintive of whines: "if you think the government is shit, blame the people who didn't vote for it!" It's a work of tragic beauty. Truly one for the ages.
You do understand the difference in effectiveness between a majority and a minority government in our system, don't you? So a small number of people shifting Con > Lab had a colossal effect not primarily on the identity of the governing party (although they did saddle us with the DUP), but on its ability to govern. That much is patently obvious, even for a lefty.
Just for shits and giggles, what do we think the polling and GE2019 might look like if it were still on for 12th December and...
(1) The Tories (led by Stewart or Hammond) had campaigned on a 2nd referendum plus Remain platform on the basis of Cameron’s Deal+ (they’d looked at Leave, and couldn’t reach an agreement in the national interest they could in good faith recommend, so were pledging a new vote on a new - improved - Deal inside the EU instead) (2) The Lib Dems were still led by Swinson but with no Tory defectors, just from Corbyn’s Labour (3) Labour was the same current shitshow (4) The Brexit Party was full-on billy bollocks for Brexit and led by Farage, going utterly apeshit about the Tory position (5) Sturgeon was still the same and basically trying it on (again) with a 2nd indyref lush
Thoughts??
My guess would be C 22 Lab 24 LD 18 BXP 18.
You see, faced with the prospect of Corbyn in office, I think the Tories would do slightly better than that and the LDs worse as the Tories took votes back from them. I’d think something like:
Con 30% Lab 24% LD 12% BXP 22%
It would just be a rather different 30%.
I don’t know what that would mean in terms of seats. I’d expect a C&S agreement with the LDs to maybe just get such a Government.
Not sure why that means they've been so quiet so far though.
They probably judge that 2017’s initial onslaught against Corbyn was what helped him to consolidate the opposition, so they want to be more low key this time.
Do you think it is working? Labour seem to be getting a bounce at the expense of the LDs regardless.
what can the Tories really do about Lib --> Lab switchers?
On topic, if Labour doing this badly in London then they are going to get smashed all over Britain.
... in the GE this Thursday. Oh, wait...
Labour were 18% behind the Tories 37 days before the 2017 GE, just saying.
You don't think that since 2017, people might just have noticed that flocking to Corbyn simply led to completely fucked up Govt.? And that many, many might not want to repeat that mistake?
"Why are these successive Conservative governments so shit?" "It's Labour's fault"
Comedy central perhaps, but it has an element of truth. If a competent Labour Party had coherent policies, the Conservatives would be in electoral oblivion for at least 10 years, maybe 15.
The Conservative's victory will largely be down to the Labour Party's complete, utter and total ineptness. The current Tory party should be unelectable on any absolute basis, but relative to opposition....
Sorry, but I'll never get over this most plaintive of whines: "if you think the government is shit, blame the people who didn't vote for it!" It's a work of tragic beauty. Truly one for the ages.
You do understand the difference in effectiveness between a majority and a minority government in our system, don't you? So a small number of people shifting Con > Lab had a colossal effect not primarily on the identity of the governing party (although they did saddle us with the DUP), but on its ability to govern. That much is patently obvious, even for a lefty.
It is an interesting feature of our system that the closer the outcome of an election, the more a PM is beholden to those with more extreme views. (The DUP, the ERG, the 'bastards' - conversely because Labour's three election victories were very comfortable, the far left never really got a chance to stick their oar in.
On topic, if Labour doing this badly in London then they are going to get smashed all over Britain.
... in the GE this Thursday. Oh, wait...
Labour were 18% behind the Tories 37 days before the 2017 GE, just saying.
You don't think that since 2017, people might just have noticed that flocking to Corbyn simply led to completely fucked up Govt.? And that many, many might not want to repeat that mistake?
"Why are these successive Conservative governments so shit?" "It's Labour's fault"
Comedy central perhaps, but it has an element of truth. If a competent Labour Party had coherent policies, the Conservatives would be in electoral oblivion for at least 10 years, maybe 15.
The Conservative's victory will largely be down to the Labour Party's complete, utter and total ineptness. The current Tory party should be unelectable on any absolute basis, but relative to opposition....
Sorry, but I'll never get over this most plaintive of whines: "if you think the government is shit, blame the people who didn't vote for it!" It's a work of tragic beauty. Truly one for the ages.
You do understand the difference in effectiveness between a majority and a minority government in our system, don't you? So a small number of people shifting Con > Lab had a colossal effect not primarily on the identity of the governing party (although they did saddle us with the DUP), but on its ability to govern. That much is patently obvious, even for a lefty.
Hooray, I'm a lefty again! I was a nationalist a few days ago, and a yellow Tory before that. At some point I was a proper Tory. Exciting times at Chez Noo, my political colours change faster than disco lights, it would seem. I look forward to seeing what my political affiliation will be half an hour from now.
Conservatives seven down on 2017? In the con gaining seats off labour in London excitement, is it not surprisingly poor poll for the libdems.
'Surprisingly poor' might be the message of the LD campaign, if only because they've gotten so excited in recent months that almost anything would be surprisingly poor.
Another thing pointed out today that may be overestimating the size of Tory majority, the point about 2016 can’t be used as point of ref (por) anymore because 17 factors in 16 so 19 por is 17, In other words in terms of Tory doing well in Labour leave seats its not leave numbers in 2016 (you know when people say Torys can take it it was 62.14 leave in 2016) thats now meaningless they need to go further than managed in 17 because to some extent 16 is built in the 2017 result. If you were to say not entirely built in due to Maybot and her Dementia Tax, a further variable how leave support may have dropped off in those constituency’s since 17 as it has done over the country.
Another thing pointed out today that may be overestimating the size of Tory majority, the point about 2016 can’t be used as point of ref (por) anymore because 17 factors in 16 so 19 por is 17, In other words in terms of Tory doing well in Labour leave seats its not leave numbers in 2016 (you know when people say Torys can take it it was 62.14 leave in 2016) thats now meaningless they need to go further than managed in 17 because to some extent 16 is built in the 2017 result. If you were to say not entirely built in due to Maybot and her Dementia Tax, a further variable how leave support may have dropped off in those constituency’s since 17 as it has done over the country.
I suspect there may be a genuine point struggling to make itself comprehensible in there somewhere.
Leaving aside the fuckwittery of Rees Mogg aside, what he said is actually an extremely dangerous position for a minister of the crown to take. In all sorts of areas we the General public rely implicitly on the advice given by the experts in the emergency or the public sector and often their safety and security depends on people listening to that advice and following it.
The Grenfell residents were clearly let down badly by following the advice, but even there it seems likely that the general advice was and is sound, is was the failure to change the advice in the terrible circumstances of the fire that was most to blame. For a Govt minister to, in effect, say that you should use ‘common sense’ and replace official advice with your own thoughts is incredibly dangerous, and has the potential to cause far more damage in the long run if people learn the “lessons” he is extolling.
He should resign.
There's people in the London Fire Service should resign way ahead of JRM. What he has said hasn't cost any lives.
If you want a controversial take on Grenfell, try this:
Not sure why that means they've been so quiet so far though.
They probably judge that 2017’s initial onslaught against Corbyn was what helped him to consolidate the opposition, so they want to be more low key this time.
Do you think it is working? Labour seem to be getting a bounce at the expense of the LDs regardless.
what can the Tories really do about Lib --> Lab switchers?
Nothing, but the implication seemed to be that the Tories drove people to stick with Lab last time in their initial efforts, and by holding back a little Lab would not be able to consolidate the anti Tory vote as much as in 2017. If that was the plan, I'm not sure if it is working.
No that's not my point. Labour have increased 4% since May. Now, okay, that 'might' be MoE.
But supposing it isn't? Supposing in fact that Labour hit the bottom a few months ago and they're starting to pick up? That, I would suggest, has been more-than-hinted at by some recent polling.
Clutching at straws? Perhaps. Perhaps not.
I see no evidence of a labour recovery but as a loyal supporter you have every right to clutch at straws
And now the GE threatened postal strike and the 27 day December strike on South West railways will cause huge problems for Corbyn
Conservatives seven down on 2017? In the con gaining seats off labour in London excitement, is it not surprisingly poor poll for the libdems.
That's only just down on what the LDs got in London in 2010 (22%), so I'm not sure it's that bad a poll for them. (And Con is down 5% on their 2010 score, while Labour is up 2%.)
No that's not my point. Labour have increased 4% since May. Now, okay, that 'might' be MoE.
But supposing it isn't? Supposing in fact that Labour hit the bottom a few months ago and they're starting to pick up? That, I would suggest, has been more-than-hinted at by some recent polling.
Clutching at straws? Perhaps. Perhaps not.
I see no evidence of a labour recovery but as a loyal supporter you have every right to clutch at straws
And now the GE threatened postal strike and the 27 day December strike on South West railways will cause huge problems for Corbyn
according to the commentariat today, its what Jacob Rees Mogg and Andrew Bridgen have said about Grenfell that's important....
Another thing pointed out today that may be overestimating the size of Tory majority, the point about 2016 can’t be used as point of ref (por) anymore because 17 factors in 16 so 19 por is 17, In other words in terms of Tory doing well in Labour leave seats its not leave numbers in 2016 (you know when people say Torys can take it it was 62.14 leave in 2016) thats now meaningless they need to go further than managed in 17 because to some extent 16 is built in the 2017 result. If you were to say not entirely built in due to Maybot and her Dementia Tax, a further variable how leave support may have dropped off in those constituency’s since 17 as it has done over the country.
I suspect there may be a genuine point struggling to make itself comprehensible in there somewhere.
His post would have made more sense if only fewer people had voted for Corbyn in 2017
More lies. Where was the unilateral exit in the original plan?
I don't engage with people who falsely accuse me of lying.
do you engage with people who correctly accuse you of lying ? :-)
If I can find any, yes of course.
I believe youre voting LD so shouldnt be a log wait
Ms Swinson has been doing an excellent job trying to dissuade me from voting LibDem.
How so, she seems to be doing OK form this ex-Tory's perspective. A little lightweight so far, but no more so than the alternatives.
She’s a bit lightweight, but compared to the bantamweights Corbo and Bunter, that’s okay. I like her. She seems like a nice lady. She does have the air of a primary school teacher, but that’s mostly the colourful dangly earrings. The opprobrium she attracts on here is bizarre.
Not that bizarre. Most posters on here are pale, male and stale. There is an undercurrent of jealousy, misogyny, and bullying at the prospect of a younger woman as party leader shouting the odds as though she was a normal politician.
My mum is neither male nor pale, she says she can't stand Swinson.
Another thing pointed out today that may be overestimating the size of Tory majority, the point about 2016 can’t be used as point of ref (por) anymore because 17 factors in 16 so 19 por is 17, In other words in terms of Tory doing well in Labour leave seats its not leave numbers in 2016 (you know when people say Torys can take it it was 62.14 leave in 2016) thats now meaningless they need to go further than managed in 17 because to some extent 16 is built in the 2017 result. If you were to say not entirely built in due to Maybot and her Dementia Tax, a further variable how leave support may have dropped off in those constituency’s since 17 as it has done over the country.
I suspect there may be a genuine point struggling to make itself comprehensible in there somewhere.
There is. It’s a point I’ve made a couple of times. 2017 baked in each seat’s Brexicity. For Leave / Remain to make a difference this time round, seats must either have become more Leaver or more Remainy in the last two years or Brexit must be more salient than in 2017.
Either is possible but, at least in bog standard Conservative / Labour marginals, swing might be rather more uniform than many are expecting.
One factor that I think has not been given nearly enough attention is that the Tories are once again facing an election on a completely out of date electoral roll with some rotten Labour boroughs barely half the size of some Tory seats. After 9 years in what might loosely called government this is just quite staggering incompetence. These are the same boundaries that gave Blair a 60 majority with all of 35.2% of the vote and a lead over the Conservatives of 2.8%.
The pointless gesturism of Cameron in trying to reduce expenses stealing MPs to a mere 600 thieves and rogues may yet cost Boris dear.
Leaving aside the fuckwittery of Rees Mogg aside, what he said is actually an extremely dangerous position for a minister of the crown to take. In all sorts of areas we the General public rely implicitly on the advice given by the experts in the emergency or the public sector and often their safety and security depends on people listening to that advice and following it.
The Grenfell residents were clearly let down badly by following the advice, but even there it seems likely that the general advice was and is sound, is was the failure to change the advice in the terrible circumstances of the fire that was most to blame. For a Govt minister to, in effect, say that you should use ‘common sense’ and replace official advice with your own thoughts is incredibly dangerous, and has the potential to cause far more damage in the long run if people learn the “lessons” he is extolling.
He should resign.
Completely agree. It combined being stupid, insulting to innocent victims and dangerous.
Anecdote: today was the first conversation IRL in recent months where someone's said to me they're switching to Labour. I wasn't expecting it from them especially as I know they have never voted Labour in the past. They even started to try to persuade me that I should, too (I won't)
Not sure why that means they've been so quiet so far though.
They probably judge that 2017’s initial onslaught against Corbyn was what helped him to consolidate the opposition, so they want to be more low key this time.
Do you think it is working? Labour seem to be getting a bounce at the expense of the LDs regardless.
what can the Tories really do about Lib --> Lab switchers?
Nothing, but the implication seemed to be that the Tories drove people to stick with Lab last time in their initial efforts, and by holding back a little Lab would not be able to consolidate the anti Tory vote as much as in 2017. If that was the plan, I'm not sure if it is working.
Fair point.
I think the 100+ predicted majorities also did their part.
Which was more costly; Getting Zaghari-Ratcliffe an extended prison sentence by not doing your homework or blaming the dead for being too stupid to get out of Grenfell Tower?
A close run thing but what they've both got in common is the arrogance of Old Etonians.
There is nothing wrong with Rees Mogg's comments.
So why did he apologise?
Probably told to. Let us be clear. Rees-Mogg in his worst caricature of himself, essentially says that people were rather stupid to take the advice of the London Fire Brigade and subsequently die in a building fire. "Nothing wrong"? At best this was an insensitive comment not becoming of a professional politician, at worst a demonstration of the repulsive thinking that goes on his not very intelligent head.
On topic, if Labour doing this badly in London then they are going to get smashed all over Britain.
... in the GE this Thursday. Oh, wait...
Labour were 18% behind the Tories 37 days before the 2017 GE, just saying.
You don't think that since 2017, people might just have noticed that flocking to Corbyn simply led to completely fucked up Govt.? And that many, many might not want to repeat that mistake?
"Why are these successive Conservative governments so shit?" "It's Labour's fault"
Comedy central perhaps, but it has an element of truth. If a competent Labour Party had coherent policies, the Conservatives would be in electoral oblivion for at least 10 years, maybe 15.
The Conservative's victory will largely be down to the Labour Party's complete, utter and total ineptness. The current Tory party should be unelectable on any absolute basis, but relative to opposition....
Sorry, but I'll never get over this most plaintive of whines: "if you think the government is shit, blame the people who didn't vote for it!" It's a work of tragic beauty. Truly one for the ages.
If you want to ascribe it to a whine then be my guest. Frankly I do not care.
It is an observation about how our system works. There is a long standing political observation that "Oppositions do not win elections, govt.s lose them", and by all rights the Conservatives should be out on their ear at this election - except they are more electable than the Opposition which is astounding given the complete mess the Tories are in.
Not sure why that means they've been so quiet so far though.
They probably judge that 2017’s initial onslaught against Corbyn was what helped him to consolidate the opposition, so they want to be more low key this time.
Do you think it is working? Labour seem to be getting a bounce at the expense of the LDs regardless.
what can the Tories really do about Lib --> Lab switchers?
Nothing, but the implication seemed to be that the Tories drove people to stick with Lab last time in their initial efforts, and by holding back a little Lab would not be able to consolidate the anti Tory vote as much as in 2017. If that was the plan, I'm not sure if it is working.
Fair point.
I think the 100+ predicted majorities also did their part.
True. In fairness the Tories are displaying less hubris than last time, but I think the surrounding situation is weaker for them, so it remains hard for them to win outright, even though largest party status seems very plausible.
Leaving aside the fuckwittery of Rees Mogg aside, what he said is actually an extremely dangerous position for a minister of the crown to take. In all sorts of areas we the General public rely implicitly on the advice given by the experts in the emergency or the public sector and often their safety and security depends on people listening to that advice and following it.
The Grenfell residents were clearly let down badly by following the advice, but even there it seems likely that the general advice was and is sound, is was the failure to change the advice in the terrible circumstances of the fire that was most to blame. For a Govt minister to, in effect, say that you should use ‘common sense’ and replace official advice with your own thoughts is incredibly dangerous, and has the potential to cause far more damage in the long run if people learn the “lessons” he is extolling.
He should resign.
Completely agree. It combined being stupid, insulting to innocent victims and dangerous.
More lies. Where was the unilateral exit in the original plan?
I don't engage with people who falsely accuse me of lying.
do you engage with people who correctly accuse you of lying ? :-)
If I can find any, yes of course.
I believe youre voting LD so shouldnt be a log wait
Ms Swinson has been doing an excellent job trying to dissuade me from voting LibDem.
How so, she seems to be doing OK form this ex-Tory's perspective. A little lightweight so far, but no more so than the alternatives.
She’s a bit lightweight, but compared to the bantamweights Corbo and Bunter, that’s okay. I like her. She seems like a nice lady. She does have the air of a primary school teacher, but that’s mostly the colourful dangly earrings. The opprobrium she attracts on here is bizarre.
Not that bizarre. Most posters on here are pale, male and stale. There is an undercurrent of jealousy, misogyny, and bullying at the prospect of a younger woman as party leader shouting the odds as though she was a normal politician.
My mum is neither male nor pale, she says she can't stand Swinson.
One factor that I think has not been given nearly enough attention is that the Tories are once again facing an election on a completely out of date electoral roll with some rotten Labour boroughs barely half the size of some Tory seats. After 9 years in what might loosely called government this is just quite staggering incompetence. These are the same boundaries that gave Blair a 60 majority with all of 35.2% of the vote and a lead over the Conservatives of 2.8%.
The pointless gesturism of Cameron in trying to reduce expenses stealing MPs to a mere 600 thieves and rogues may yet cost Boris dear.
More lies. Where was the unilateral exit in the original plan?
I don't engage with people who falsely accuse me of lying.
do you engage with people who correctly accuse you of lying ? :-)
If I can find any, yes of course.
I believe youre voting LD so shouldnt be a log wait
Ms Swinson has been doing an excellent job trying to dissuade me from voting LibDem.
How so, she seems to be doing OK form this ex-Tory's perspective. A little lightweight so far, but no more so than the alternatives.
She’s a bit lightweight, but compared to the bantamweights Corbo and Bunter, that’s okay. I like her. She seems like a nice lady. She does have the air of a primary school teacher, but that’s mostly the colourful dangly earrings. The opprobrium she attracts on here is bizarre.
Not that bizarre. Most posters on here are pale, male and stale. There is an undercurrent of jealousy, misogyny, and bullying at the prospect of a younger woman as party leader shouting the odds as though she was a normal politician.
My mum is neither male nor pale, she says she can't stand Swinson.
What name does she post under on here Sunil?
I have no idea
It's me, son. I'm sure everyone else could tell as much.
That Bridgen interview is extraordinary. The deference he shows to Rees Moog boils down to the cringe so many Brits have when confronted with a crisp, home counties accent. The assumption that well-spoken equals smart has caused the UK so much trouble over the years and continues to do so.
That Rees Mogg thing gets worse the more you think about it.
No that's not my point. Labour have increased 4% since May. Now, okay, that 'might' be MoE.
But supposing it isn't? Supposing in fact that Labour hit the bottom a few months ago and they're starting to pick up? That, I would suggest, has been more-than-hinted at by some recent polling.
Clutching at straws? Perhaps. Perhaps not.
I see no evidence of a labour recovery but as a loyal supporter you have every right to clutch at straws
I'm a LibDem!
I just want to try and be equitable, so I'll state it a little more bluntly. There is absolutely clear, unequivocal, signs of a Labour uptick (hate that kind of language but feel compelled to use it).
I think Labour are on a roll. Corbyn loves this stuff. He's setting the agenda left, right and centre. Poor Jo Swinson has hardly had a look in. As for the tories, well you can kind of understand why they're remaining silent if everytime they open their mouths they spew the kind of bile of JRM and Andrew Bridgen.
I'm only surprised Dom Cummings didn't send Rees-Mogg on a six week holiday to Antartica. Actually, scrub that, the Arctic would've been a better choice.
Leaving aside the fuckwittery of Rees Mogg aside, what he said is actually an extremely dangerous position for a minister of the crown to take. In all sorts of areas we the General public rely implicitly on the advice given by the experts in the emergency or the public sector and often their safety and security depends on people listening to that advice and following it.
The Grenfell residents were clearly let down badly by following the advice, but even there it seems likely that the general advice was and is sound, is was the failure to change the advice in the terrible circumstances of the fire that was most to blame. For a Govt minister to, in effect, say that you should use ‘common sense’ and replace official advice with your own thoughts is incredibly dangerous, and has the potential to cause far more damage in the long run if people learn the “lessons” he is extolling.
He should resign.
Completely agree. It combined being stupid, insulting to innocent victims and dangerous.
One factor that I think has not been given nearly enough attention is that the Tories are once again facing an election on a completely out of date electoral roll with some rotten Labour boroughs barely half the size of some Tory seats. After 9 years in what might loosely called government this is just quite staggering incompetence. These are the same boundaries that gave Blair a 60 majority with all of 35.2% of the vote and a lead over the Conservatives of 2.8%.
The pointless gesturism of Cameron in trying to reduce expenses stealing MPs to a mere 600 thieves and rogues may yet cost Boris dear.
May had a majority to get this through.
Whatever happened to that?
Just imbecility. The consensus is that, unlike Blair with his 2.8%, the Tories are going to need a lead of at least 8% to get a majority. If the new boundaries had been pushed through the risk of yet another hung Parliament would have been very much reduced.
Which was more costly; Getting Zaghari-Ratcliffe an extended prison sentence by not doing your homework or blaming the dead for being too stupid to get out of Grenfell Tower?
A close run thing but what they've both got in common is the arrogance of Old Etonians.
There is nothing wrong with Rees Mogg's comments.
So why did he apologise?
It was poorly and insensitively stated?
JRM should have just said "dont those people know we've had enogh of experts telling us what to do"
Anecdote: today was the first conversation IRL in recent months where someone's said to me they're switching to Labour. I wasn't expecting it from them especially as I know they have never voted Labour in the past. They even started to try to persuade me that I should, too (I won't)
The Tories shouldn’t underestimate how appealing pure unadulterated socialism may be to some people, notwithstanding their views on Corbyn personally.
One factor that I think has not been given nearly enough attention is that the Tories are once again facing an election on a completely out of date electoral roll with some rotten Labour boroughs barely half the size of some Tory seats. After 9 years in what might loosely called government this is just quite staggering incompetence. These are the same boundaries that gave Blair a 60 majority with all of 35.2% of the vote and a lead over the Conservatives of 2.8%.
The pointless gesturism of Cameron in trying to reduce expenses stealing MPs to a mere 600 thieves and rogues may yet cost Boris dear.
There are more expense-stealing "Lords" than there are MPs! Reduce the number of the former before reducing the number of the latter!
That Bridgen interview is extraordinary. The deference he shows to Rees Moog boils down to the cringe so many Brits have when confronted with a crisp, home counties accent. The assumption that well-spoken equals smart has caused the UK so much trouble over the years and continues to do so.
That Rees Mogg thing gets worse the more you think about it.
The thing that will make it worse for labour is giving a feck about what some tory may or may not have said when unions that are their bedrock are going to destroy christmas for millions of voters across an election.
Leaving aside the fuckwittery of Rees Mogg aside, what he said is actually an extremely dangerous position for a minister of the crown to take. In all sorts of areas we the General public rely implicitly on the advice given by the experts in the emergency or the public sector and often their safety and security depends on people listening to that advice and following it.
The Grenfell residents were clearly let down badly by following the advice, but even there it seems likely that the general advice was and is sound, is was the failure to change the advice in the terrible circumstances of the fire that was most to blame. For a Govt minister to, in effect, say that you should use ‘common sense’ and replace official advice with your own thoughts is incredibly dangerous, and has the potential to cause far more damage in the long run if people learn the “lessons” he is extolling.
He should resign.
Completely agree. It combined being stupid, insulting to innocent victims and dangerous.
JRM is a fuckwit. Well, who knew?
I think most people did, but only a fuckwit PM would bring him into the executive.
No that's not my point. Labour have increased 4% since May. Now, okay, that 'might' be MoE.
But supposing it isn't? Supposing in fact that Labour hit the bottom a few months ago and they're starting to pick up? That, I would suggest, has been more-than-hinted at by some recent polling.
Clutching at straws? Perhaps. Perhaps not.
I see no evidence of a labour recovery but as a loyal supporter you have every right to clutch at straws
I'm a LibDem!
I just want to try and be equitable, so I'll state it a little more bluntly. There is absolutely clear, unequivocal, signs of a Labour uptick (hate that kind of language but feel compelled to use it).
I think Labour are on a roll. Corbyn loves this stuff. He's setting the agenda left, right and centre. Poor Jo Swinson has hardly had a look in. As for the tories, well you can kind of understand why they're remaining silent if everytime they open their mouths they spew the kind of bile of JRM and Andrew Bridgen.
I'm only surprised Dom Cummings didn't send Rees-Mogg on a six week holiday to Antartica. Actually, scrub that, the Arctic would've been a better choice.
So he can explain how global warming is a fantasy as the ice melts beneath him? I don't think so.
Anecdote: today was the first conversation IRL in recent months where someone's said to me they're switching to Labour. I wasn't expecting it from them especially as I know they have never voted Labour in the past. They even started to try to persuade me that I should, too (I won't)
The Tories shouldn’t underestimate how appealing pure unadulterated socialism may be to some people, notwithstanding their views on Corbyn personally.
Agreed. Especially when confronted with Lord Snooty on the opposite side.
That Bridgen interview is extraordinary. The deference he shows to Rees Moog boils down to the cringe so many Brits have when confronted with a crisp, home counties accent. The assumption that well-spoken equals smart has caused the UK so much trouble over the years and continues to do so.
That Rees Mogg thing gets worse the more you think about it.
You have bad gaffes and crank candidates in every election. In fact, it’s almost a statistical certainty.
I think the material impact is negligible unless very heavily concentrated in one party and part of a broader narrative.
Leaving aside the fuckwittery of Rees Mogg aside, what he said is actually an extremely dangerous position for a minister of the crown to take. In all sorts of areas we the General public rely implicitly on the advice given by the experts in the emergency or the public sector and often their safety and security depends on people listening to that advice and following it.
The Grenfell residents were clearly let down badly by following the advice, but even there it seems likely that the general advice was and is sound, is was the failure to change the advice in the terrible circumstances of the fire that was most to blame. For a Govt minister to, in effect, say that you should use ‘common sense’ and replace official advice with your own thoughts is incredibly dangerous, and has the potential to cause far more damage in the long run if people learn the “lessons” he is extolling.
He should resign.
Completely agree. It combined being stupid, insulting to innocent victims and dangerous.
JRM is a fuckwit. Well, who knew?
I think most people did, but only a fuckwit PM would bring him into the executive.
It would have been worth it, for Boris, if it had meant he had enough votes to get his deal through. He almost managed it.
Leaving aside the fuckwittery of Rees Mogg aside, what he said is actually an extremely dangerous position for a minister of the crown to take. In all sorts of areas we the General public rely implicitly on the advice given by the experts in the emergency or the public sector and often their safety and security depends on people listening to that advice and following it.
The Grenfell residents were clearly let down badly by following the advice, but even there it seems likely that the general advice was and is sound, is was the failure to change the advice in the terrible circumstances of the fire that was most to blame. For a Govt minister to, in effect, say that you should use ‘common sense’ and replace official advice with your own thoughts is incredibly dangerous, and has the potential to cause far more damage in the long run if people learn the “lessons” he is extolling.
He should resign.
Completely agree. It combined being stupid, insulting to innocent victims and dangerous.
JRM is a fuckwit. Well, who knew?
Well he backed Brexit, so quite a few of us knew.
Did he? He had a champagne party at his house to celebrate defeating May's deal. Maybe fuckwit is far too generous.
One factor that I think has not been given nearly enough attention is that the Tories are once again facing an election on a completely out of date electoral roll with some rotten Labour boroughs barely half the size of some Tory seats. After 9 years in what might loosely called government this is just quite staggering incompetence. These are the same boundaries that gave Blair a 60 majority with all of 35.2% of the vote and a lead over the Conservatives of 2.8%.
The pointless gesturism of Cameron in trying to reduce expenses stealing MPs to a mere 600 thieves and rogues may yet cost Boris dear.
May had a majority to get this through.
Whatever happened to that?
Just imbecility. The consensus is that, unlike Blair with his 2.8%, the Tories are going to need a lead of at least 8% to get a majority. If the new boundaries had been pushed through the risk of yet another hung Parliament would have been very much reduced.
A hung parliament will be the correct democratic outcome considering the divided nature of our nation that the Brexiteer fuckwits have brought us to.
More lies. Where was the unilateral exit in the original plan?
I don't engage with people who falsely accuse me of lying.
do you engage with people who correctly accuse you of lying ? :-)
If I can find any, yes of course.
I believe youre voting LD so shouldnt be a log wait
Ms Swinson has been doing an excellent job trying to dissuade me from voting LibDem.
How so, she seems to be doing OK form this ex-Tory's perspective. A little lightweight so far, but no more so than the alternatives.
She’s a bit lightweight, but compared to the bantamweights Corbo and Bunter, that’s okay. I like her. She seems like a nice lady. She does have the air of a primary school teacher, but that’s mostly the colourful dangly earrings. The opprobrium she attracts on here is bizarre.
Not that bizarre. Most posters on here are pale, male and stale. There is an undercurrent of jealousy, misogyny, and bullying at the prospect of a younger woman as party leader shouting the odds as though she was a normal politician.
My mum is neither male nor pale, she says she can't stand Swinson.
What name does she post under on here Sunil?
I have no idea
It's me, son. I'm sure everyone else could tell as much.
Which was more costly; Getting Zaghari-Ratcliffe an extended prison sentence by not doing your homework or blaming the dead for being too stupid to get out of Grenfell Tower?
A close run thing but what they've both got in common is the arrogance of Old Etonians.
There is nothing wrong with Rees Mogg's comments.
So why did he apologise?
Probably told to. Let us be clear. Rees-Mogg in his worst caricature of himself, essentially says that people were rather stupid to take the advice of the London Fire Brigade and subsequently die in a building fire. "Nothing wrong"? At best this was an insensitive comment not becoming of a professional politician, at worst a demonstration of the repulsive thinking that goes on his not very intelligent head.
JRM is not stupid, he is a calculating politician seeking to ensure that his privileged position in life is protected and enhanced. He apparently is a good constituency MP, but most are. You can see by responses to the comment that tories don't give a shit what their leaders say, the tories have no morals, the labour party have no sense or awareness of their failure to the people who need them most.
Anecdote: today was the first conversation IRL in recent months where someone's said to me they're switching to Labour. I wasn't expecting it from them especially as I know they have never voted Labour in the past. They even started to try to persuade me that I should, too (I won't)
The Tories shouldn’t underestimate how appealing pure unadulterated socialism may be to some people, notwithstanding their views on Corbyn personally.
This person is not a socialist. They voted Conservative back in the early 2000s and went Lib Dem after that. I didn't get a very clear sense of what drives their voting choice.
Boris's home city too really, after all he was elected mayor there twice.
But really his home city is New York. Which makes him a citizen of nowhere, I suppose....
Boris was born in New York obviously he didn't have much choice as that was where his mother was at the time, but he has spent most of his life in and around the capital. Corbyn on the other hand lived in Wiltshire and Shropshire until he entered politics.
didn't he spend some of his teenage years in Brussels?
That Bridgen interview is extraordinary. The deference he shows to Rees Moog boils down to the cringe so many Brits have when confronted with a crisp, home counties accent. The assumption that well-spoken equals smart has caused the UK so much trouble over the years and continues to do so.
That Rees Mogg thing gets worse the more you think about it.
The thing that will make it worse for labour is giving a feck about what some tory may or may not have said when unions that are their bedrock are going to destroy christmas for millions of voters across an election.
Good point. Every day there will be an attack line for the Cons.
More lies. Where was the unilateral exit in the original plan?
I don't engage with people who falsely accuse me of lying.
do you engage with people who correctly accuse you of lying ? :-)
If I can find any, yes of course.
I believe youre voting LD so shouldnt be a log wait
Ms Swinson has been doing an excellent job trying to dissuade me from voting LibDem.
How so, she seems to be doing OK form this ex-Tory's perspective. A little lightweight so far, but no more so than the alternatives.
She’s a bit lightweight, but compared to the bantamweights Corbo and Bunter, that’s okay. I like her. She seems like a nice lady. She does have the air of a primary school teacher, but that’s mostly the colourful dangly earrings. The opprobrium she attracts on here is bizarre.
Not that bizarre. Most posters on here are pale, male and stale. There is an undercurrent of jealousy, misogyny, and bullying at the prospect of a younger woman as party leader shouting the odds as though she was a normal politician.
My mum is neither male nor pale, she says she can't stand Swinson.
What name does she post under on here Sunil?
I have no idea
It's me, son. I'm sure everyone else could tell as much.
One factor that I think has not been given nearly enough attention is that the Tories are once again facing an election on a completely out of date electoral roll with some rotten Labour boroughs barely half the size of some Tory seats. After 9 years in what might loosely called government this is just quite staggering incompetence. These are the same boundaries that gave Blair a 60 majority with all of 35.2% of the vote and a lead over the Conservatives of 2.8%.
The pointless gesturism of Cameron in trying to reduce expenses stealing MPs to a mere 600 thieves and rogues may yet cost Boris dear.
May had a majority to get this through.
Whatever happened to that?
Just imbecility. The consensus is that, unlike Blair with his 2.8%, the Tories are going to need a lead of at least 8% to get a majority. If the new boundaries had been pushed through the risk of yet another hung Parliament would have been very much reduced.
A hung parliament will be the correct democratic outcome considering the divided nature of our nation that the Brexiteer fuckwits have brought us to.
We absolutely need a decision. Whether it is leave with a deal or revoke I am almost past caring but we cannot go on like this damaging our economy, destroying our constitution and failing to address the multiplicity of more important challenges we face year after year after year whilst 2 groups of tossers dominate our political life.
Anecdote: today was the first conversation IRL in recent months where someone's said to me they're switching to Labour. I wasn't expecting it from them especially as I know they have never voted Labour in the past. They even started to try to persuade me that I should, too (I won't)
The Tories shouldn’t underestimate how appealing pure unadulterated socialism may be to some people, notwithstanding their views on Corbyn personally.
This person is not a socialist. They voted Conservative back in the early 2000s and went Lib Dem after that. I didn't get a very clear sense of what drives their voting choice.
Leaving aside the fuckwittery of Rees Mogg aside, what he said is actually an extremely dangerous position for a minister of the crown to take. In all sorts of areas we the General public rely implicitly on the advice given by the experts in the emergency or the public sector and often their safety and security depends on people listening to that advice and following it.
The Grenfell residents were clearly let down badly by following the advice, but even there it seems likely that the general advice was and is sound, is was the failure to change the advice in the terrible circumstances of the fire that was most to blame. For a Govt minister to, in effect, say that you should use ‘common sense’ and replace official advice with your own thoughts is incredibly dangerous, and has the potential to cause far more damage in the long run if people learn the “lessons” he is extolling.
He should resign.
Completely agree. It combined being stupid, insulting to innocent victims and dangerous.
What is dangerous is being so beholden to officialdom that you stay in a burning building against every human instinct and your own better judgement. The state doesn't always have the answers, and there are times when this becomes tragically obvious.
More lies. Where was the unilateral exit in the original plan?
I don't engage with people who falsely accuse me of lying.
do you engage with people who correctly accuse you of lying ? :-)
If I can find any, yes of course.
I believe youre voting LD so shouldnt be a log wait
Ms Swinson has been doing an excellent job trying to dissuade me from voting LibDem.
How so, she seems to be doing OK form this ex-Tory's perspective. A little lightweight so far, but no more so than the alternatives.
She’s a bit lightweight, but compared to the bantamweights Corbo and Bunter, that’s okay. I like her. She seems like a nice lady. She does have the air of a primary school teacher, but that’s mostly the colourful dangly earrings. The opprobrium she attracts on here is bizarre.
Not that bizarre. Most posters on here are pale, male and stale. There is an undercurrent of jealousy, misogyny, and bullying at the prospect of a younger woman as party leader shouting the odds as though she was a normal politician.
My mum is neither male nor pale, she says she can't stand Swinson.
What name does she post under on here Sunil?
I have no idea
It's me, son. I'm sure everyone else could tell as much.
What are your thoughts on Ms Swinson?
I know that wasn't aimed at me but seeing as this is a forum n' all ...
Some people earlier were talking about her 'shrill' voice. Hmmm. I don't see much criticism of the irritating voices amongst men. On the other hand, in the interests of balance, I should say that a close friend of mine, female, also finds Jo to be shrill.
I think she's doing alright. Over six weeks she should be able to get across LibDem policies, but that's been a slight problem in itself. Loads of people keep saying to me, 'but what else do they stand for?'
Another anecdotal that suggests Brexit isn't the heart beat of our nation?
Leaving aside the fuckwittery of Rees Mogg aside, what he said is actually an extremely dangerous position for a minister of the crown to take. In all sorts of areas we the General public rely implicitly on the advice given by the experts in the emergency or the public sector and often their safety and security depends on people listening to that advice and following it.
The Grenfell residents were clearly let down badly by following the advice, but even there it seems likely that the general advice was and is sound, is was the failure to change the advice in the terrible circumstances of the fire that was most to blame. For a Govt minister to, in effect, say that you should use ‘common sense’ and replace official advice with your own thoughts is incredibly dangerous, and has the potential to cause far more damage in the long run if people learn the “lessons” he is extolling.
He should resign.
Completely agree. It combined being stupid, insulting to innocent victims and dangerous.
JRM is a fuckwit. Well, who knew?
Well he backed Brexit, so quite a few of us knew.
Did he? He had a champagne party at his house to celebrate defeating May's deal. Maybe fuckwit is far too generous.
Who is the bigger fuckwit?
JRM or the fuckwit that made JRM a cabinet minister?
One factor that I think has not been given nearly enough attention is that the Tories are once again facing an election on a completely out of date electoral roll with some rotten Labour boroughs barely half the size of some Tory seats. After 9 years in what might loosely called government this is just quite staggering incompetence. These are the same boundaries that gave Blair a 60 majority with all of 35.2% of the vote and a lead over the Conservatives of 2.8%.
The pointless gesturism of Cameron in trying to reduce expenses stealing MPs to a mere 600 thieves and rogues may yet cost Boris dear.
May had a majority to get this through.
Whatever happened to that?
Just imbecility. The consensus is that, unlike Blair with his 2.8%, the Tories are going to need a lead of at least 8% to get a majority. If the new boundaries had been pushed through the risk of yet another hung Parliament would have been very much reduced.
A hung parliament will be the correct democratic outcome considering the divided nature of our nation that the Brexiteer fuckwits have brought us to.
We absolutely need a decision. Whether it is leave with a deal or revoke I am almost past caring but we cannot go on like this damaging our economy, destroying our constitution and failing to address the multiplicity of more important challenges we face year after year after year whilst 2 groups of tossers dominate our political life.
Which, the country having voted for Brexit, is a huge surprise to absolutely no one.
Leaving aside the fuckwittery of Rees Mogg aside, what he said is actually an extremely dangerous position for a minister of the crown to take. In all sorts of areas we the General public rely implicitly on the advice given by the experts in the emergency or the public sector and often their safety and security depends on people listening to that advice and following it.
The Grenfell residents were clearly let down badly by following the advice, but even there it seems likely that the general advice was and is sound, is was the failure to change the advice in the terrible circumstances of the fire that was most to blame. For a Govt minister to, in effect, say that you should use ‘common sense’ and replace official advice with your own thoughts is incredibly dangerous, and has the potential to cause far more damage in the long run if people learn the “lessons” he is extolling.
He should resign.
Well said. Anybody defending him needs an injection of decency and grey matter.
Comments
"‘Joker’ tops UK box office for record fifth consecutive weekend"
https://www.screendaily.com/news/joker-tops-uk-box-office-for-record-fifth-consecutive-weekend-doctor-sleep-slumbers/5144363.article
Can't even put him down as a maybe.
Only bit of SWR I need to complete their network is the Saturday summer-only link from Wareham to the Swanage Railway at Corfe Castle.
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1191691198987227136?s=20
But supposing it isn't? Supposing in fact that Labour hit the bottom a few months ago and they're starting to pick up? That, I would suggest, has been more-than-hinted at by some recent polling.
Clutching at straws? Perhaps. Perhaps not.
Guaranteed podium finish I'd say.
Con 30%
Lab 24%
LD 12%
BXP 22%
It would just be a rather different 30%.
I don’t know what that would mean in terms of seats. I’d expect a C&S agreement with the LDs to maybe just get such a Government.
https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1191758169674014720
If you want a controversial take on Grenfell, try this:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/10/20/stephen-lawrences-mother-claims-firefighters-tackling-grenfell/
And now the GE threatened postal strike and the 27 day December strike on South West railways will cause huge problems for Corbyn
Either is possible but, at least in bog standard Conservative / Labour marginals, swing might be rather more uniform than many are expecting.
The pointless gesturism of Cameron in trying to reduce expenses stealing MPs to a mere 600 thieves and rogues may yet cost Boris dear.
They even started to try to persuade me that I should, too
(I won't)
Fair point.
I think the 100+ predicted majorities also did their part.
It is an observation about how our system works. There is a long standing political observation that "Oppositions do not win elections, govt.s lose them", and by all rights the Conservatives should be out on their ear at this election - except they are more electable than the Opposition which is astounding given the complete mess the Tories are in.
Every region looking to rack up losses. Even the SW - their Plymouth seat will go I reckon.
https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1191786531205320706
Whatever happened to that?
Zuckerberg said as much.
I just want to try and be equitable, so I'll state it a little more bluntly. There is absolutely clear, unequivocal, signs of a Labour uptick (hate that kind of language but feel compelled to use it).
I think Labour are on a roll. Corbyn loves this stuff. He's setting the agenda left, right and centre. Poor Jo Swinson has hardly had a look in. As for the tories, well you can kind of understand why they're remaining silent if everytime they open their mouths they spew the kind of bile of JRM and Andrew Bridgen.
I'm only surprised Dom Cummings didn't send Rees-Mogg on a six week holiday to Antartica. Actually, scrub that, the Arctic would've been a better choice.
Reduce the number of the former before reducing the number of the latter!
I think the material impact is negligible unless very heavily concentrated in one party and part of a broader narrative.
I didn't get a very clear sense of what drives their voting choice.
Where are the people who’ve worked in business and industry?
Some people earlier were talking about her 'shrill' voice. Hmmm. I don't see much criticism of the irritating voices amongst men. On the other hand, in the interests of balance, I should say that a close friend of mine, female, also finds Jo to be shrill.
I think she's doing alright. Over six weeks she should be able to get across LibDem policies, but that's been a slight problem in itself. Loads of people keep saying to me, 'but what else do they stand for?'
Another anecdotal that suggests Brexit isn't the heart beat of our nation?
JRM or the fuckwit that made JRM a cabinet minister?