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  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    edited October 2019

    Streeter said:


    nico67 said:

    Reuters

    Boris has confirmed he is submitting the letter today

    So as we all knew the loophole was another Cummings fantasy .
    But the thought he may not kept his opponents in a constant state of rage and litigation
    Which given that he needs their votes is wholly counterproductive.
    He will not get the votes of the remain lobby
    And he’s more interested in the votes of the electorate.

    MPs seem to be forgetting them at the moment.
  • ZephyrZephyr Posts: 438

    One conclusion today is that Boris has quite unexpectedly united the conservative party with only one or two exceptions

    That is a very big positive with a GE just round the corner

    Well exactly this.



    When’s Corbyn allowing you a GE? 😃
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    One conclusion today is that Boris has quite unexpectedly united the conservative party with only one or two exceptions

    That is a very big positive with a GE just round the corner

    Until the next time he uses his nasty persona. I worry about you.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    Zephyr said:

    One conclusion today is that Boris has quite unexpectedly united the conservative party with only one or two exceptions

    That is a very big positive with a GE just round the corner

    Well exactly this.



    When’s Corbyn allowing you a GE? 😃
    After no deal taken off the table. He said so.

    Or is he a liar too?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,488
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Karma’s a bitch.

    That’s what comes when you have a reputation for being utterly untrustworthy. No-one trusts you.

    People are getting over-excited though.

    1. He sends the letter.
    2. EU wait. They have no obligation to respond immediately.
    3. Boris introduces WA bill next week.
    4. It passes by 31/10.
    5. Problem solved.
    6. If it needs a bit more time to complete its legislative passage EU gives UK a bit more time.

    The real fireworks start if either (a) it gets voted down and/or (b) a referendum is tacked onto it.

    I don’t feel sorry for him at all. He is one of the chief architects of this mess.

    I also hope there is no GE soon so that he is left dangling in office but not in power, though it would be very nice indeed to see Corbyn soundly defeated. Let the Tories get on with taking responsibility for what they started.

    No-one is noticing that this deal is much worse than May’s deal.

    Why do you feel it's a much worse deal?
    And in response to @Philip_Thompson - see my thread header from Thursday.

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/10/17/welcome-to-the-looking-glass/

    The key point relates to any FTA with the EU where the EU is now in a much stronger position and Britain faces another cliff edge at the end of 2020.

    Plus, as the government itself recognises and has said in its doomed attempt to get the DUP on board, it provides an incentive to firms to move to NI in order to get frictionless access to the SM. In short it is explicitly saying to companies that if they want easy access to the SM they should move out of Britain.

    Perhaps a Leaver could explain why that is a good thing.
    They won't be moving out of Britain.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    So is this another of @HYUFD ’s predictions that have not come to pass.

    Boris is sending the letter.

    So much for the ditch.
  • Zephyr said:

    One conclusion today is that Boris has quite unexpectedly united the conservative party with only one or two exceptions

    That is a very big positive with a GE just round the corner

    Well exactly this.



    When’s Corbyn allowing you a GE? 😃
    It may not be in Corbyn's hands. A simple majority on an amendment to the FTA passes with the votes of the SNP and Lib Dems
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    One conclusion today is that Boris has quite unexpectedly united the conservative party with only one or two exceptions

    That is a very big positive with a GE just round the corner

    And with a large part of the electorate he is seen as to be doing the right thing by saying the vote must be honoured.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    I haven't been keeping up today. Could somebody explain why Johnson didn't want to pass the vote with the amendment attached?

    It did pass, as amended, it just wasnt voted on. So essentially it says that parliament is withholding approval of the deal for now.
    No I thought that as well. But apparently I am being told it didn't. It was pulled. Can someone clarify.
    Some of the media are clueless . What happened , as soon as the Letwin Amendment went through it changed the motion . I’m not one to defend Johnson but it was pointless putting it to a division after that . It was nodded through because MPs who voted for the amendment weren’t going to suddenly change their minds two minutes later .

    This is the big difference in Amendments, you get some which just add to a motion but don’t change its core aim and the amendments which effectively render the original motions core aim changed .
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    edited October 2019

    Zephyr said:

    Zephyr said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Karma’s a bitch.

    That’s what comes when you have a reputation for being utterly untrustworthy. No-one trusts you.

    People are getting over-excited though.

    1. He sends the letter.
    2. EU wait. They have no obligation to respond immediately.
    3. Boris introduces WA bill next week.
    4. It passes by 31/10.
    5. Problem solved.
    6. If it needs a bit more time to complete its legislative passage EU gives UK a bit more time.

    The real fireworks start if either (a) it gets voted down and/or (b) a referendum is tacked onto it.

    I don’t feel sorry for him at all. He is one of the chief architects of this mess.

    I also hope there is no GE soon so that he is left dangling in office but not in power, though it would be very nice indeed to see Corbyn soundly defeated. Let the Tories get on with taking responsibility for what they started.

    No-one is noticing that this deal is much worse than May’s deal.

    Why do you feel it's a much worse deal?

    To be fair to you, there are people in this world who would say amending the deal to throw ulster unionism under a bus makes the deal much better than mays deal. These people live in balaclavas and murder British soldiers and is the new true friend of everyone supporting Boris fantastic new deal.
    Aren't those the people in the devolved government ?
    It’s a very sensitive and complicated political situation, has been for more than a century. Someone please explain this to Boris and the ERG turncoats.
    Its Northern Ireland's problem and its time for Northern Ireland to sort itself out.

    But that's not what the DUP want is it.

    What they want is to have a veto about all maters Northern Ireland and for others to keep shoveling the money in.
    "a veto about all maters Northern Ireland" encapsulates their abortion laws rather neatly.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    geoffw said:

    nichomar said:

    geoffw said:

    viewcode said:

    Quick question.

    Today GBP is 1.29USD and 1.16EUR. What will it be in a week's time?

    Viewcode, you surely understand that no-one here can answer that because if they could they would be extremely wealthy by now and their time would be too valuable to bother.
    I live in euro land and always get it wrong, I think my predictions are close but the road to any final position is extremely bumpy. It’s a bit shit though that something always happens on the 29th of the month which trashes the pound and wipes 200€ of this months pension. Oh for the days it was 1.4 and some idiot hadn’t rocked the boat
    Those who think they can foretell currency movements should consider the question: if you're so smart why aren't you rich?
    Indeed. One of my favorite aphorisms is "people who are good at one profession always think they are good at another, and they are always wrong". Give me data about grain sales or car accidents or cinema seating or disease progression and I can make a reasonable stab at modelling them. Currency movements? I have not got a scooby... :(
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,215
    edited October 2019

    So is this another of @HYUFD ’s predictions that have not come to pass.

    Boris is sending the letter.

    So much for the ditch.

    It's all moved on. Right now he needs the Champion, Letwin, Boles, Spelman votes - if he didn't send the letter he wouldn't get those.
  • nico67 said:

    Apparently Bozo showed an MP a text from Macron saying there would be no further extension ! Lmao .

    Really what next they what’s app each other on a regular basis ! Jeez does he think people are really that stupid and gullible .

    I imagine they do yes.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    I haven't been keeping up today. Could somebody explain why Johnson didn't want to pass the vote with the amendment attached?

    It did pass, as amended, it just wasnt voted on. So essentially it says that parliament is withholding approval of the deal for now.
    No I thought that as well. But apparently I am being told it didn't. It was pulled. Can someone clarify.
    Speaker definitely called for Ayes in favour, for for which there was a large cheer, Noes against, for which there was silence, then he said that the Ayes have it. From watching I would say that the substantive went through ‘on the nod’.
    635-0 effectively.
    Well did it pass or not?
  • ZephyrZephyr Posts: 438

    Zephyr said:

    One conclusion today is that Boris has quite unexpectedly united the conservative party with only one or two exceptions

    That is a very big positive with a GE just round the corner

    Well exactly this.



    When’s Corbyn allowing you a GE? 😃
    After no deal taken off the table. He said so.

    Or is he a liar too?
    There’s no election coming. You know it. I know. Everybody know it. Simple maff after the coalitions fixed term act.

    Ironically if the polls turned against you, you’d get it, unless you blocked it.

    The gap between Tory and labour can narrow a lot without labour movement if Faragists tick upward. Which they will do now after the Cummings Boris cock up this week.
  • Sandpit said:

    I haven't been keeping up today. Could somebody explain why Johnson didn't want to pass the vote with the amendment attached?

    It did pass, as amended, it just wasnt voted on. So essentially it says that parliament is withholding approval of the deal for now.
    No I thought that as well. But apparently I am being told it didn't. It was pulled. Can someone clarify.
    Speaker definitely called for Ayes in favour, for for which there was a large cheer, Noes against, for which there was silence, then he said that the Ayes have it. From watching I would say that the substantive went through ‘on the nod’.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BM1AvoYFuZk
    I have just been to check Hansard and according to the official record the motion was indeed carried. Letwin later refers to this fact.

    But it was carried as amended which indicates that any decision has been postponed. So I have no idea what that means in practical terms.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    Zephyr said:

    Zephyr said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Karma’s a bitch.

    That’s what comes when you have a reputation for being utterly untrustworthy. No-one trusts you.

    People are getting over-excited though.

    1. He sends the letter.
    2. EU wait. They have no obligation to respond immediately.
    3. Boris introduces WA bill next week.
    4. It passes by 31/10.
    5. Problem solved.
    6. If it needs a bit more time to complete its legislative passage EU gives UK a bit more time.

    The real fireworks start if either (a) it gets voted down and/or (b) a referendum is tacked onto it.

    I don’t feel sorry for him at all. He is one of the chief architects of this mess.

    I also hope there is no GE soon so that he is left dangling in office but not in power, though it would be very nice indeed to see Corbyn soundly defeated. Let the Tories get on with taking responsibility for what they started.

    No-one is noticing that this deal is much worse than May’s deal.

    Why do you feel it's a much worse deal?

    To be fair to you, there are people in this world who would say amending the deal to throw ulster unionism under a bus makes the deal much better than mays deal. These people live in balaclavas and murder British soldiers and is the new true friend of everyone supporting Boris fantastic new deal.
    Aren't those the people in the devolved government ?
    It’s a very sensitive and complicated political situation, has been for more than a century. Someone please explain this to Boris and the ERG turncoats.

    But that's not what the DUP want is it.

    What they want is to have a veto about all maters Northern Ireland.
    This times 1000.

  • Jonathan said:

    One conclusion today is that Boris has quite unexpectedly united the conservative party with only one or two exceptions

    That is a very big positive with a GE just round the corner

    Until the next time he uses his nasty persona. I worry about you.
    Please do not worry about me.

    I have my lovely wife of 55 years and family who do that

    And I am pleased to be back in the fold with many of those conservatives mps who had the whip removed, causing my resignation, and who have voted with the government today.

    And by the way, please do not worry for them either
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,215
    edited October 2019
    viewcode said:

    geoffw said:

    nichomar said:

    geoffw said:

    viewcode said:

    Quick question.

    Today GBP is 1.29USD and 1.16EUR. What will it be in a week's time?

    Viewcode, you surely understand that no-one here can answer that because if they could they would be extremely wealthy by now and their time would be too valuable to bother.
    I live in euro land and always get it wrong, I think my predictions are close but the road to any final position is extremely bumpy. It’s a bit shit though that something always happens on the 29th of the month which trashes the pound and wipes 200€ of this months pension. Oh for the days it was 1.4 and some idiot hadn’t rocked the boat
    Those who think they can foretell currency movements should consider the question: if you're so smart why aren't you rich?
    Indeed. One of my favorite aphorisms is "people who are good at one profession always think they are good at another, and they are always wrong". Give me data about grain sales or car accidents or cinema seating or disease progression and I can make a reasonable stab at modelling them. Currency movements? I have not got a scooby... :(
    Main dangers to sterling are No deal and then Corbyn.
    nichomar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    I haven't been keeping up today. Could somebody explain why Johnson didn't want to pass the vote with the amendment attached?

    It did pass, as amended, it just wasnt voted on. So essentially it says that parliament is withholding approval of the deal for now.
    No I thought that as well. But apparently I am being told it didn't. It was pulled. Can someone clarify.
    Speaker definitely called for Ayes in favour, for for which there was a large cheer, Noes against, for which there was silence, then he said that the Ayes have it. From watching I would say that the substantive went through ‘on the nod’.
    635-0 effectively.
    Well did it pass or not?
    Main motion passed as amended.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,707
    I'm guessing Boris is sending the letter at, ohhh, 10.57pm?
  • Zephyr said:

    Zephyr said:

    Zephyr said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Karma’s a bitch.

    That’s what comes when you have a reputation for being utterly untrustworthy. No-one trusts you.

    People are getting over-excited though.

    1. He sends the letter.
    2. EU wait. They have no obligation to respond immediately.
    3. Boris introduces WA bill next week.
    4. It passes by 31/10.
    5. Problem solved.
    6. If it needs a bit more time to complete its legislative passage EU gives UK a bit more time.

    The real fireworks start if either (a) it gets voted down and/or (b) a referendum is tacked onto it.

    I don’t feel sorry for him at all. He is one of the chief architects of this mess.

    I also hope there is no GE soon so that he is left dangling in office but not in power, though it would be very nice indeed to see Corbyn soundly defeated. Let the Tories get on with taking responsibility for what they started.

    No-one is noticing that this deal is much worse than May’s deal.

    Why do you feel it's a much worse deal?

    To be fair to you, there are people in this world who would say amending the deal to throw ulster unionism under a bus makes the deal much better than mays deal. These people live in balaclavas and murder British soldiers and is the new true friend of everyone supporting Boris fantastic new deal.
    Aren't those the people in the devolved government ?
    It’s a very sensitive and complicated political situation, has been for more than a century. Someone please explain this to Boris and the ERG turncoats.
    Its Northern Ireland's problem and its time for Northern Ireland to sort itself out.

    But that's not what the DUP want is it.

    What they want is to have a veto about all maters Northern Ireland and for others to keep shoveling the money in.
    Stop turning on them and the balance of the union. There will be nothing good left to take control back to at this rate.
    You're a century too late.

    Northern Ireland should have been properly integrated into the rest of the UK.

    But the unionists preferred to be cocks of their own bigoted dunghill.

    The future of Northern Ireland should be based on consent of the people not on sectarian vetos.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    Pulpstar said:

    So is this another of @HYUFD ’s predictions that have not come to pass.

    Boris is sending the letter.

    So much for the ditch.

    It's all moved on. Right now he needs the Champion, Letwin, Boles, Spelman votes - if he didn't send the letter he wouldn't get those.
    Voluntarily and deliberately extending like May is a world away from being forced to extend against your will by a law rushed through in a couple of days.

    If you think the electorate don’t understand that then you may be in for a bit of a shock.
  • nico67 said:

    Reuters

    Boris has confirmed he is submitting the letter today

    So as we all knew the loophole was another Cummings fantasy .
    He's not requesting an extension.

    He's copying and pasting a letter required to be sent by law while telling everyone he's not requesting an extension. As was bloody obvious all along - oh and the European Council negotiates with the UK executive, as was known all along.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    Zephyr said:

    Zephyr said:

    One conclusion today is that Boris has quite unexpectedly united the conservative party with only one or two exceptions

    That is a very big positive with a GE just round the corner

    Well exactly this.



    When’s Corbyn allowing you a GE? 😃
    After no deal taken off the table. He said so.

    Or is he a liar too?
    There’s no election coming. You know it. I know. Everybody know it. Simple maff after the coalitions fixed term act.

    Ironically if the polls turned against you, you’d get it, unless you blocked it.

    The gap between Tory and labour can narrow a lot without labour movement if Faragists tick upward. Which they will do now after the Cummings Boris cock up this week.
    While Corybn’s the leader you’re screwed.

  • nico67 said:

    I haven't been keeping up today. Could somebody explain why Johnson didn't want to pass the vote with the amendment attached?

    It did pass, as amended, it just wasnt voted on. So essentially it says that parliament is withholding approval of the deal for now.
    No I thought that as well. But apparently I am being told it didn't. It was pulled. Can someone clarify.
    Some of the media are clueless . What happened , as soon as the Letwin Amendment went through it changed the motion . I’m not one to defend Johnson but it was pointless putting it to a division after that . It was nodded through because MPs who voted for the amendment weren’t going to suddenly change their minds two minutes later .

    This is the big difference in Amendments, you get some which just add to a motion but don’t change its core aim and the amendments which effectively render the original motions core aim changed .
    Cheers.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Zephyr said:

    Zephyr said:

    One conclusion today is that Boris has quite unexpectedly united the conservative party with only one or two exceptions

    That is a very big positive with a GE just round the corner

    Well exactly this.



    When’s Corbyn allowing you a GE? 😃
    After no deal taken off the table. He said so.

    Or is he a liar too?
    There’s no election coming. You know it. I know. Everybody know it. Simple maff after the coalitions fixed term act.

    Ironically if the polls turned against you, you’d get it, unless you blocked it.

    The gap between Tory and labour can narrow a lot without labour movement if Faragists tick upward. Which they will do now after the Cummings Boris cock up this week.
    So, Labour claims this tory government is killing people (even if true no doubt less than the NHS killed under Labour).

    Yet they want to leave them in power

    That tells me quite a lot about Labour and their claims

  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268

    Pulpstar said:

    So is this another of @HYUFD ’s predictions that have not come to pass.

    Boris is sending the letter.

    So much for the ditch.

    It's all moved on. Right now he needs the Champion, Letwin, Boles, Spelman votes - if he didn't send the letter he wouldn't get those.
    Voluntarily and deliberately extending like May is a world away from being forced to extend against your will by a law rushed through in a couple of days.

    If you think the electorate don’t understand that then you may be in for a bit of a shock.
    He is also helped by the fact Swinson, Sturgeon, Corbyn and Farage have all now supported an extension. No one can outflank him on this.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Sandpit said:

    I haven't been keeping up today. Could somebody explain why Johnson didn't want to pass the vote with the amendment attached?

    It did pass, as amended, it just wasnt voted on. So essentially it says that parliament is withholding approval of the deal for now.
    No I thought that as well. But apparently I am being told it didn't. It was pulled. Can someone clarify.
    Speaker definitely called for Ayes in favour, for for which there was a large cheer, Noes against, for which there was silence, then he said that the Ayes have it. From watching I would say that the substantive went through ‘on the nod’.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BM1AvoYFuZk

    The amendment deleted almost all and inserted so the ‘deal’ was no longer in the motion so the substantive vote on the amendment did not pass the deal but passed as amended, the key words are ..after... delete and insert so the WA agreement was no longer in the motion
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627

    Sandpit said:

    I haven't been keeping up today. Could somebody explain why Johnson didn't want to pass the vote with the amendment attached?

    It did pass, as amended, it just wasnt voted on. So essentially it says that parliament is withholding approval of the deal for now.
    No I thought that as well. But apparently I am being told it didn't. It was pulled. Can someone clarify.
    Speaker definitely called for Ayes in favour, for for which there was a large cheer, Noes against, for which there was silence, then he said that the Ayes have it. From watching I would say that the substantive went through ‘on the nod’.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BM1AvoYFuZk
    I have just been to check Hansard and according to the official record the motion was indeed carried. Letwin later refers to this fact.

    But it was carried as amended which indicates that any decision has been postponed. So I have no idea what that means in practical terms.
    Well, the effect of the motion as amended is to move the MV from the beginning of the legislative process to the end, so the implementing legislation now needs to be passed. Presumably starting early next week.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    So is this another of @HYUFD ’s predictions that have not come to pass.

    Boris is sending the letter.

    So much for the ditch.

    The only thing you have to remember about Boris and ditch's is he always leaves a body in them but it is someone else: DUP, TM, Cameron etc. :wink: The good news is he will be in the ditch one day!
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Zephyr said:

    One conclusion today is that Boris has quite unexpectedly united the conservative party with only one or two exceptions

    That is a very big positive with a GE just round the corner

    Well exactly this.



    When’s Corbyn allowing you a GE? 😃
    After no deal taken off the table. He said so.

    Or is he a liar too?
    He may have been there, but he never said it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,616
    Zephyr said:

    Zephyr said:

    One conclusion today is that Boris has quite unexpectedly united the conservative party with only one or two exceptions

    That is a very big positive with a GE just round the corner

    Well exactly this.



    When’s Corbyn allowing you a GE? 😃
    After no deal taken off the table. He said so.

    Or is he a liar too?
    There’s no election coming. You know it. I know. Everybody know it. Simple maff after the coalitions fixed term act.

    Ironically if the polls turned against you, you’d get it, unless you blocked it.

    The gap between Tory and labour can narrow a lot without labour movement if Faragists tick upward. Which they will do now after the Cummings Boris cock up this week.
    Are you so sure there is no election coming if the EU extends until 31st December - for the purposes of holding an election (not a second referendum), with no further extensions possible.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Jonathan said:

    One conclusion today is that Boris has quite unexpectedly united the conservative party with only one or two exceptions

    That is a very big positive with a GE just round the corner

    Until the next time he uses his nasty persona. I worry about you.
    You still in the Labour party?

  • ZephyrZephyr Posts: 438
    nico67 said:

    I haven't been keeping up today. Could somebody explain why Johnson didn't want to pass the vote with the amendment attached?

    It did pass, as amended, it just wasnt voted on. So essentially it says that parliament is withholding approval of the deal for now.
    No I thought that as well. But apparently I am being told it didn't. It was pulled. Can someone clarify.
    Some of the media are clueless . What happened , as soon as the Letwin Amendment went through it changed the motion . I’m not one to defend Johnson but it was pointless putting it to a division after that . It was nodded through because MPs who voted for the amendment weren’t going to suddenly change their minds two minutes later .

    This is the big difference in Amendments, you get some which just add to a motion but don’t change its core aim and the amendments which effectively render the original motions core aim changed .
    The way i see it it’s vandalism, a polite way of explaining Letwin is Boris wrote “we heartily, with voom and vigour endorse this deal” and Letwin added the word don’t until every bit has been scrutinised and changed possibly between we and heartily, and then said vote that instead.

    Which makes me surprised anyone anywhere counting the Letwins on Boris column. To tell you they are supporting Letwin and Boris doesn’t stack up logically, because they know if they had chance to do that it’s clearly going to make it unpalatable for ERG to be on board.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    I haven't been keeping up today. Could somebody explain why Johnson didn't want to pass the vote with the amendment attached?

    It did pass, as amended, it just wasnt voted on. So essentially it says that parliament is withholding approval of the deal for now.
    No I thought that as well. But apparently I am being told it didn't. It was pulled. Can someone clarify.
    Speaker definitely called for Ayes in favour, for for which there was a large cheer, Noes against, for which there was silence, then he said that the Ayes have it. From watching I would say that the substantive went through ‘on the nod’.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BM1AvoYFuZk
    I have just been to check Hansard and according to the official record the motion was indeed carried. Letwin later refers to this fact.

    But it was carried as amended which indicates that any decision has been postponed. So I have no idea what that means in practical terms.
    Well, the effect of the motion as amended is to move the MV from the beginning of the legislative process to the end, so the implementing legislation now needs to be passed. Presumably starting early next week.
    Which means all the details will be put before the House in black and white. It would just be a vote on a vague notion of “getting Brexit done”.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Not sure if anyone linked it earlier but Hodge is on quit watch from Labour
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Surely Dominic Cummings has to resign now if Boris is writing the letter. He is not the right skills set for Goverment. Cumming's is an oppositionalist not someone who understands Parliament or Government for that matter!:😉 So maybe Cummings will be in the ditch...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    I haven't been keeping up today. Could somebody explain why Johnson didn't want to pass the vote with the amendment attached?

    It did pass, as amended, it just wasnt voted on. So essentially it says that parliament is withholding approval of the deal for now.
    No I thought that as well. But apparently I am being told it didn't. It was pulled. Can someone clarify.
    Speaker definitely called for Ayes in favour, for for which there was a large cheer, Noes against, for which there was silence, then he said that the Ayes have it. From watching I would say that the substantive went through ‘on the nod’.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BM1AvoYFuZk
    I have just been to check Hansard and according to the official record the motion was indeed carried. Letwin later refers to this fact.

    But it was carried as amended which indicates that any decision has been postponed. So I have no idea what that means in practical terms.
    Well, the effect of the motion as amended is to move the MV from the beginning of the legislative process to the end, so the implementing legislation now needs to be passed. Presumably starting early next week.
    Which means all the details will be put before the House in black and white. It would just be a vote on a vague notion of “getting Brexit done”.
    Funny how the details were not required for other MVs.
  • kle4 said:

    Zephyr said:

    Zephyr said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Karma’s a bitch.

    That’s what comes when you have a reputation for being utterly untrustworthy. No-one trusts you.

    People are getting over-excited though.

    1. He sends the letter.
    2. EU wait. They have no obligation to respond immediately.
    3. Boris introduces WA bill next week.
    4. It passes by 31/10.
    5. Problem solved.
    6. If it needs a bit more time to complete its legislative passage EU gives UK a bit more time.

    The real fireworks start if either (a) it gets voted down and/or (b) a referendum is tacked onto it.

    I don’t feel sorry for him at all. He is one of the chief architects of this mess.

    I also hope there is no GE soon so that he is left dangling in office but not in power, though it would be very nice indeed to see Corbyn soundly defeated. Let the Tories get on with taking responsibility for what they started.

    No-one is noticing that this deal is much worse than May’s deal.

    Why do you feel it's a much worse deal?

    To be fair to you, there are people in this world who would say amending the deal to throw ulster unionism under a bus makes the deal much better than mays deal. These people live in balaclavas and murder British soldiers and is the new true friend of everyone supporting Boris fantastic new deal.
    Aren't those the people in the devolved government ?
    It’s a very sensitive and complicated political situation, has been for more than a century. Someone please explain this to Boris and the ERG turncoats.

    But that's not what the DUP want is it.

    What they want is to have a veto about all matters Northern Ireland.
    This times 1000.

    How many other parts of the first world have these sectarian vetos and rules that minimum percentages of this community or that group need to approve everything ?

    Its demeaning to Britain that we allow and fund this bigoted bollox.

    Northern Ireland should work on the same rules the rest of us do or it should be bye-bye.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    geoffw said:

    viewcode said:

    Quick question.

    Today GBP is 1.29USD and 1.16EUR. What will it be in a week's time?

    Viewcode, you surely understand that no-one here can answer that because if they could they would be extremely wealthy by now and their time would be too valuable to bother.
    Yes you are right, but it's worth a try.. :(

    I find that if I ask people questions, most will respond with chatty or irrelevant responses, some will simply not know, some will sincerely try to answer but fail, but occasionally one will respond knowledgeably and provide info that I could not easily find out otherwise.

  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Surely Dominic Cummings has to resign now if Boris is writing the letter. He is not the right skills set for Goverment. Cumming's is an oppositionalist not someone who understands Parliament or Government for that matter!:😉 So maybe Cummings will be in the ditch...

    Cummings will be off as soon as the WAIB passes
  • Zephyr said:

    nico67 said:

    I haven't been keeping up today. Could somebody explain why Johnson didn't want to pass the vote with the amendment attached?

    It did pass, as amended, it just wasnt voted on. So essentially it says that parliament is withholding approval of the deal for now.
    No I thought that as well. But apparently I am being told it didn't. It was pulled. Can someone clarify.
    Some of the media are clueless . What happened , as soon as the Letwin Amendment went through it changed the motion . I’m not one to defend Johnson but it was pointless putting it to a division after that . It was nodded through because MPs who voted for the amendment weren’t going to suddenly change their minds two minutes later .

    This is the big difference in Amendments, you get some which just add to a motion but don’t change its core aim and the amendments which effectively render the original motions core aim changed .
    The way i see it it’s vandalism, a polite way of explaining Letwin is Boris wrote “we heartily, with voom and vigour endorse this deal” and Letwin added the word don’t until every bit has been scrutinised and changed possibly between we and heartily, and then said vote that instead.

    Which makes me surprised anyone anywhere counting the Letwins on Boris column. To tell you they are supporting Letwin and Boris doesn’t stack up logically, because they know if they had chance to do that it’s clearly going to make it unpalatable for ERG to be on board.
    Well Letwin himself has said he is supporting the Deal which rather shoots down your theory.
  • ZephyrZephyr Posts: 438

    Zephyr said:

    Zephyr said:

    One conclusion today is that Boris has quite unexpectedly united the conservative party with only one or two exceptions

    That is a very big positive with a GE just round the corner

    Well exactly this.



    When’s Corbyn allowing you a GE? 😃
    After no deal taken off the table. He said so.

    Or is he a liar too?
    There’s no election coming. You know it. I know. Everybody know it. Simple maff after the coalitions fixed term act.

    Ironically if the polls turned against you, you’d get it, unless you blocked it.

    The gap between Tory and labour can narrow a lot without labour movement if Faragists tick upward. Which they will do now after the Cummings Boris cock up this week.
    Are you so sure there is no election coming if the EU extends until 31st December - for the purposes of holding an election (not a second referendum), with no further extensions possible.
    Yes. I’m quite sure. 🙂Neither Boris or his new friends and helpers in Brussels and throughout Europe can mandate parliament into a GE. What makes you so sure they can?

    The extension is for the Boris deal v revoke confirmatory ref as it in the only option left to Cummings Boris and the EU.
  • Zephyr said:

    nico67 said:

    I haven't been keeping up today. Could somebody explain why Johnson didn't want to pass the vote with the amendment attached?

    It did pass, as amended, it just wasnt voted on. So essentially it says that parliament is withholding approval of the deal for now.
    No I thought that as well. But apparently I am being told it didn't. It was pulled. Can someone clarify.
    Some of the media are clueless . What happened , as soon as the Letwin Amendment went through it changed the motion . I’m not one to defend Johnson but it was pointless putting it to a division after that . It was nodded through because MPs who voted for the amendment weren’t going to suddenly change their minds two minutes later .

    This is the big difference in Amendments, you get some which just add to a motion but don’t change its core aim and the amendments which effectively render the original motions core aim changed .
    The way i see it it’s vandalism, a polite way of explaining Letwin is Boris wrote “we heartily, with voom and vigour endorse this deal” and Letwin added the word don’t until every bit has been scrutinised and changed possibly between we and heartily, and then said vote that instead.

    Which makes me surprised anyone anywhere counting the Letwins on Boris column. To tell you they are supporting Letwin and Boris doesn’t stack up logically, because they know if they had chance to do that it’s clearly going to make it unpalatable for ERG to be on board.
    Re your last paragraph and with respect you are wrong. After Letwin won the vote he said that he supports the deal and will do everything he can to see it pass for the 31st

    As I have said today all wings of the conservative party came together, other than a handful who want to stop brexit, but who will not be in the party at the next GE
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    nichomar said:

    geoffw said:

    viewcode said:

    Quick question.

    Today GBP is 1.29USD and 1.16EUR. What will it be in a week's time?

    Viewcode, you surely understand that no-one here can answer that because if they could they would be extremely wealthy by now and their time would be too valuable to bother.
    I live in euro land and always get it wrong, I think my predictions are close but the road to any final position is extremely bumpy. It’s a bit shit though that something always happens on the 29th of the month which trashes the pound and wipes 200€ of this months pension. Oh for the days it was 1.4 and some idiot hadn’t rocked the boat
    Tell me about it... :(
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    Jonathan said:

    One conclusion today is that Boris has quite unexpectedly united the conservative party with only one or two exceptions

    That is a very big positive with a GE just round the corner

    Until the next time he uses his nasty persona. I worry about you.
    Please do not worry about me.

    I have my lovely wife of 55 years and family who do that

    And I am pleased to be back in the fold with many of those conservatives mps who had the whip removed, causing my resignation, and who have voted with the government today.

    And by the way, please do not worry for them either
    Have the MPs had the whip reinstated?
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268

    Zephyr said:

    nico67 said:

    I haven't been keeping up today. Could somebody explain why Johnson didn't want to pass the vote with the amendment attached?

    It did pass, as amended, it just wasnt voted on. So essentially it says that parliament is withholding approval of the deal for now.
    No I thought that as well. But apparently I am being told it didn't. It was pulled. Can someone clarify.
    Some of the media are clueless . What happened , as soon as the Letwin Amendment went through it changed the motion . I’m not one to defend Johnson but it was pointless putting it to a division after that . It was nodded through because MPs who voted for the amendment weren’t going to suddenly change their minds two minutes later .

    This is the big difference in Amendments, you get some which just add to a motion but don’t change its core aim and the amendments which effectively render the original motions core aim changed .
    The way i see it it’s vandalism, a polite way of explaining Letwin is Boris wrote “we heartily, with voom and vigour endorse this deal” and Letwin added the word don’t until every bit has been scrutinised and changed possibly between we and heartily, and then said vote that instead.

    Which makes me surprised anyone anywhere counting the Letwins on Boris column. To tell you they are supporting Letwin and Boris doesn’t stack up logically, because they know if they had chance to do that it’s clearly going to make it unpalatable for ERG to be on board.
    Well Letwin himself has said he is supporting the Deal which rather shoots down your theory.
    Letwin is a liar.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,722
    viewcode said:

    geoffw said:

    nichomar said:

    geoffw said:

    viewcode said:

    Quick question.

    Today GBP is 1.29USD and 1.16EUR. What will it be in a week's time?

    Viewcode, you surely understand that no-one here can answer that because if they could they would be extremely wealthy by now and their time would be too valuable to bother.
    I live in euro land and always get it wrong, I think my predictions are close but the road to any final position is extremely bumpy. It’s a bit shit though that something always happens on the 29th of the month which trashes the pound and wipes 200€ of this months pension. Oh for the days it was 1.4 and some idiot hadn’t rocked the boat
    Those who think they can foretell currency movements should consider the question: if you're so smart why aren't you rich?
    Indeed. One of my favorite aphorisms is "people who are good at one profession always think they are good at another, and they are always wrong". Give me data about grain sales or car accidents or cinema seating or disease progression and I can make a reasonable stab at modelling them. Currency movements? I have not got a scooby... :(
    Can you predict a random walk? You might get the drift component by relative inflation or money supply, but that's low frequency stuff. No way to make a quick buck there.

  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268
    Zephyr said:

    Zephyr said:

    Zephyr said:

    One conclusion today is that Boris has quite unexpectedly united the conservative party with only one or two exceptions

    That is a very big positive with a GE just round the corner

    Well exactly this.



    When’s Corbyn allowing you a GE? 😃
    After no deal taken off the table. He said so.

    Or is he a liar too?
    There’s no election coming. You know it. I know. Everybody know it. Simple maff after the coalitions fixed term act.

    Ironically if the polls turned against you, you’d get it, unless you blocked it.

    The gap between Tory and labour can narrow a lot without labour movement if Faragists tick upward. Which they will do now after the Cummings Boris cock up this week.
    Are you so sure there is no election coming if the EU extends until 31st December - for the purposes of holding an election (not a second referendum), with no further extensions possible.
    Yes. I’m quite sure. 🙂Neither Boris or his new friends and helpers in Brussels and throughout Europe can mandate parliament into a GE. What makes you so sure they can?

    The extension is for the Boris deal v revoke confirmatory ref as it in the only option left to Cummings Boris and the EU.
    Boris has united the Tory vote in the country. He can hang on for three years for a GE if needed. He will never support a second referendum.
  • Not sure if anyone linked it earlier but Hodge is on quit watch from Labour

    I assume you mean Margaret Hodge
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Not sure if anyone linked it earlier but Hodge is on quit watch from Labour

    I assume you mean Margaret Hodge
    Yes
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Gabs2 said:

    Zephyr said:

    nico67 said:

    I haven't been keeping up today. Could somebody explain why Johnson didn't want to pass the vote with the amendment attached?

    It did pass, as amended, it just wasnt voted on. So essentially it says that parliament is withholding approval of the deal for now.
    No I thought that as well. But apparently I am being told it didn't. It was pulled. Can someone clarify.
    Some of the media are clueless . What happened , as soon as the Letwin Amendment went through it changed the motion . I’m not one to defend Johnson but it was pointless putting it to a division after that . It was nodded through because MPs who voted for the amendment weren’t going to suddenly change their minds two minutes later .

    This is the big difference in Amendments, you get some which just add to a motion but don’t change its core aim and the amendments which effectively render the original motions core aim changed .
    The way i see it it’s vandalism, a polite way of explaining Letwin is Boris wrote “we heartily, with voom and vigour endorse this deal” and Letwin added the word don’t until every bit has been scrutinised and changed possibly between we and heartily, and then said vote that instead.

    Which makes me surprised anyone anywhere counting the Letwins on Boris column. To tell you they are supporting Letwin and Boris doesn’t stack up logically, because they know if they had chance to do that it’s clearly going to make it unpalatable for ERG to be on board.
    Well Letwin himself has said he is supporting the Deal which rather shoots down your theory.
    Letwin is a liar.
    you mean guilty of terminological inexactitudes?
  • Surely Dominic Cummings has to resign now if Boris is writing the letter. He is not the right skills set for Goverment. Cumming's is an oppositionalist not someone who understands Parliament or Government for that matter!:😉 So maybe Cummings will be in the ditch...

    He was due to go on the 31st. So a few more weeks then he is gone.
  • viewcode said:

    geoffw said:

    viewcode said:

    Quick question.

    Today GBP is 1.29USD and 1.16EUR. What will it be in a week's time?

    Viewcode, you surely understand that no-one here can answer that because if they could they would be extremely wealthy by now and their time would be too valuable to bother.
    Yes you are right, but it's worth a try.. :(

    I find that if I ask people questions, most will respond with chatty or irrelevant responses, some will simply not know, some will sincerely try to answer but fail, but occasionally one will respond knowledgeably and provide info that I could not easily find out otherwise.

    Are you better. You seemed under the weather last evening
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268

    kle4 said:

    Zephyr said:

    Zephyr said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Karma’s a bitch.

    That’s what comes when you have a reputation for being utterly untrustworthy. No-one trusts you.

    People are getting over-excited though.

    1. He sends the letter.
    2. EU wait. They have no obligation to respond immediately.
    3. Boris introduces WA bill next week.
    4. It passes by 31/10.
    5. Problem solved.
    6. If it needs a bit more time to complete its legislative passage EU gives UK a bit more time.

    The real fireworks start if either (a) it gets voted down and/or (b) a referendum is tacked onto it.

    I don’t feel sorry for him at all. He is one of the chief architects of this mess.

    I also hope there is no GE soon so that he is left dangling in office but not in power, though it would be very nice indeed to see Corbyn soundly defeated. Let the Tories get on with taking responsibility for what they started.

    No-one is noticing that this deal is much worse than May’s deal.

    Why do you feel it's a much worse deal?

    To be fair to you, there are people in this world who would say amending the deal to throw ulster unionism under a bus makes the deal much better than mays deal. These people live in balaclavas and murder British soldiers and is the new true friend of everyone supporting Boris fantastic new deal.
    Aren't those the people in the devolved government ?
    It’s a very sensitive and complicated political situation, has been for more than a century. Someone please explain this to Boris and the ERG turncoats.

    But that's not what the DUP want is it.

    What they want is to have a veto about all matters Northern Ireland.
    This times 1000.

    How many other parts of the first world have these sectarian vetos and rules that minimum percentages of this community or that group need to approve everything ?

    Its demeaning to Britain that we allow and fund this bigoted bollox.

    Northern Ireland should work on the same rules the rest of us do or it should be bye-bye.
    I heard similar things from my arch Conservative parents today. I think the DUP have made a catastrophic error in severing the support of the only major UK party that looked out for them. No one beyond a half dozen ERGers will be fighting for them to stay in the union now.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,722

    Surely Dominic Cummings has to resign now if Boris is writing the letter. He is not the right skills set for Goverment. Cumming's is an oppositionalist not someone who understands Parliament or Government for that matter!:😉 So maybe Cummings will be in the ditch...

    He was due to go on the 31st. So a few more weeks then he is gone.
    Doesn't he have a personal timetable - a delayed operation?
  • ZephyrZephyr Posts: 438

    Zephyr said:

    nico67 said:

    I haven't been keeping up today. Could somebody explain why Johnson didn't want to pass the vote with the amendment attached?

    It did pass, as amended, it just wasnt voted on. So essentially it says that parliament is withholding approval of the deal for now.
    No I thought that as well. But apparently I am being told it didn't. It was pulled. Can someone clarify.
    Some of the media are clueless . What happened , as soon as the Letwin Amendment went through it changed the motion . I’m not one to defend Johnson but it was pointless putting it to a division after that . It was nodded through because MPs who voted for the amendment weren’t going to suddenly change their minds two minutes later .

    This is the big difference in Amendments, you get some which just add to a motion but don’t change its core aim and the amendments which effectively render the original motions core aim changed .
    The way i see it it’s vandalism, a polite way of explaining Letwin is Boris wrote “we heartily, with voom and vigour endorse this deal” and Letwin added the word don’t until every bit has been scrutinised and changed possibly between we and heartily, and then said vote that instead.

    Which makes me surprised anyone anywhere counting the Letwins on Boris column. To tell you they are supporting Letwin and Boris doesn’t stack up logically, because they know if they had chance to do that it’s clearly going to make it unpalatable for ERG to be on board.
    Well Letwin himself has said he is supporting the Deal which rather shoots down your theory.
    No it doesn’t 😆. Only on condition he can deface the motion so that acceptance occurs after the remainer parliament has given each phrase in the deal a jolly good seeing to. It’s not lost on the letwins exactly what that means, so exactly what their support is worth when offered. Letwin himself wasn’t publicly honest, he said it’s merely to ensure no deal doesn’t happen by default. It was a remainer coup to essentially take control and re write the deal.

    This deal in its current form cannot pass an MV in this parliament.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Scott_P said:
    I dont think he has restored the whip to any of the 20 odd MPs he expelled. Something fishy going on here with BJ...
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    Jonathan said:

    One conclusion today is that Boris has quite unexpectedly united the conservative party with only one or two exceptions

    That is a very big positive with a GE just round the corner

    Until the next time he uses his nasty persona. I worry about you.
    Please do not worry about me.

    I have my lovely wife of 55 years and family who do that

    And I am pleased to be back in the fold with many of those conservatives mps who had the whip removed, causing my resignation, and who have voted with the government today.

    And by the way, please do not worry for them either
    Have the MPs had the whip reinstated?
    It has been reported that the rebels have to climb a ladder, vote for the waib, vote for the QS and then vote for the budget on Nov 6th. Only then whip restored.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    edited October 2019
    viewcode said:

    geoffw said:

    viewcode said:

    Quick question.

    Today GBP is 1.29USD and 1.16EUR. What will it be in a week's time?

    Viewcode, you surely understand that no-one here can answer that because if they could they would be extremely wealthy by now and their time would be too valuable to bother.
    Yes you are right, but it's worth a try.. :(

    I find that if I ask people questions, most will respond with chatty or irrelevant responses, some will simply not know, some will sincerely try to answer but fail, but occasionally one will respond knowledgeably and provide info that I could not easily find out otherwise.

    Well the only advice I can give you is that at the moment someone decides to screw the £\€ rate up each month end just before my pension is paid. The one positive although it wasn’t the driver I have mitigated the impact of currency transactions by giving up smoking and am currently e3000 in front which will pay for my all inclusive canaries cruise at Christmas. Sadder news tonight is that some idiots have ruined my football clubs reputation and I have never seen in the years i went to matches any racism at the game. The worst it ever got was that we hated Weymouth, what on earth is releasing this mindless racism in the UK.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,616
    Zephyr said:

    Zephyr said:

    Zephyr said:

    One conclusion today is that Boris has quite unexpectedly united the conservative party with only one or two exceptions

    That is a very big positive with a GE just round the corner

    Well exactly this.



    When’s Corbyn allowing you a GE? 😃
    After no deal taken off the table. He said so.

    Or is he a liar too?
    There’s no election coming. You know it. I know. Everybody know it. Simple maff after the coalitions fixed term act.

    Ironically if the polls turned against you, you’d get it, unless you blocked it.

    The gap between Tory and labour can narrow a lot without labour movement if Faragists tick upward. Which they will do now after the Cummings Boris cock up this week.
    Are you so sure there is no election coming if the EU extends until 31st December - for the purposes of holding an election (not a second referendum), with no further extensions possible.
    Yes. I’m quite sure. 🙂Neither Boris or his new friends and helpers in Brussels and throughout Europe can mandate parliament into a GE. What makes you so sure they can?

    The extension is for the Boris deal v revoke confirmatory ref as it in the only option left to Cummings Boris and the EU.
    It really is not.
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268

    Gabs2 said:

    Zephyr said:

    nico67 said:

    I haven't been keeping up today. Could somebody explain why Johnson didn't want to pass the vote with the amendment attached?

    It did pass, as amended, it just wasnt voted on. So essentially it says that parliament is withholding approval of the deal for now.
    No I thought that as well. But apparently I am being told it didn't. It was pulled. Can someone clarify.
    Some of the media are clueless . What happened , as soon as the Letwin Amendment went through it changed the motion . I’m not one to defend Johnson but it was pointless putting it to a division after that . It was nodded through because MPs who voted for the amendment weren’t going to suddenly change their minds two minutes later .

    This is the big difference in Amendments, you get some which just add to a motion but don’t change its core aim and the amendments which effectively render the original motions core aim changed .
    The way i see it it’s vandalism, a polite way of explaining Letwin is Boris wrote “we heartily, with voom and vigour endorse this deal” and Letwin added the word don’t until every bit has been scrutinised and changed possibly between we and heartily, and then said vote that instead.

    Which makes me surprised anyone anywhere counting the Letwins on Boris column. To tell you they are supporting Letwin and Boris doesn’t stack up logically, because they know if they had chance to do that it’s clearly going to make it unpalatable for ERG to be on board.
    Well Letwin himself has said he is supporting the Deal which rather shoots down your theory.
    Letwin is a liar.
    you mean guilty of terminological inexactitudes?
    Describing an amendment that says "withholds approval" as meaning "gives approval" is more than inexactitude.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited October 2019
    Gabs2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Zephyr said:

    Zephyr said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Karma’s a bitch.

    That’s what comes when you have a reputation for being utterly untrustworthy. No-one trusts you.

    People are getting over-excited though.

    1. He sends the letter.
    2. EU wait. They have no obligation to respond immediately.
    3. Boris introduces WA bill next week.
    4. It passes by 31/10.
    5. Problem solved.
    6. If it needs a bit more time to complete its legislative passage EU gives UK a bit more time.

    The real fireworks start if either (a) it gets voted down and/or (b) a referendum is tacked onto it.

    I don’t feel sorry for him at all. He is one of the chief architects of this mess.

    I also hope there is no GE soon so that he is left dangling in office but not in power, though it would be very nice indeed to see Corbyn soundly defeated. Let the Tories get on with taking responsibility for what they started.

    No-one is noticing that this deal is much worse than May’s deal.

    Why do you feel it's a much worse deal?

    To be fair to you, there are people in this world who would say amending the deal to throw ulster unionism under a bus makes the deal much better than mays deal. These people live in balaclavas and murder British soldiers and is the new true friend of everyone supporting Boris fantastic new deal.
    Aren't those the people in the devolved government ?
    It’s a very sensitive and complicated political situation, has been for more than a century. Someone please explain this to Boris and the ERG turncoats.

    But that's not what the DUP want is it.

    What they want is to have a veto about all matters Northern Ireland.
    This times 1000.

    How many other parts of the first world have these sectarian vetos and rules that minimum percentages of this community or that group need to approve everything ?

    Its demeaning to Britain that we allow and fund this bigoted bollox.

    Northern Ireland should work on the same rules the rest of us do or it should be bye-bye.
    I heard similar things from my arch Conservative parents today. I think the DUP have made a catastrophic error in severing the support of the only major UK party that looked out for them. No one beyond a half dozen ERGers will be fighting for them to stay in the union now.
    I see a new rationale for ending the union emerging - it's sectarian.

    The sectarianism was fine when seen to promote Britain's power and interests among these islands and beyond, ofcourse.
  • ZephyrZephyr Posts: 438
    Gabs2 said:

    Zephyr said:

    Zephyr said:

    Zephyr said:

    One conclusion today is that Boris has quite unexpectedly united the conservative party with only one or two exceptions

    That is a very big positive with a GE just round the corner

    Well exactly this.



    When’s Corbyn allowing you a GE? 😃
    After no deal taken off the table. He said so.

    Or is he a liar too?
    There’s no election coming. You know it. I know. Everybody know it. Simple maff after the coalitions fixed term act.

    Ironically if the polls turned against you, you’d get it, unless you blocked it.

    The gap between Tory and labour can narrow a lot without labour movement if Faragists tick upward. Which they will do now after the Cummings Boris cock up this week.
    Are you so sure there is no election coming if the EU extends until 31st December - for the purposes of holding an election (not a second referendum), with no further extensions possible.
    Yes. I’m quite sure. 🙂Neither Boris or his new friends and helpers in Brussels and throughout Europe can mandate parliament into a GE. What makes you so sure they can?

    The extension is for the Boris deal v revoke confirmatory ref as it in the only option left to Cummings Boris and the EU.
    Boris has united the Tory vote in the country. He can hang on for three years for a GE if needed. He will never support a second referendum.
    Ive cut out your post, put it on the wall and keeping it. 🙂
  • Zephyr said:

    Zephyr said:

    Zephyr said:

    One conclusion today is that Boris has quite unexpectedly united the conservative party with only one or two exceptions

    That is a very big positive with a GE just round the corner

    Well exactly this.



    When’s Corbyn allowing you a GE? 😃
    After no deal taken off the table. He said so.

    Or is he a liar too?
    There’s no election coming. You know it. I know. Everybody know it. Simple maff after the coalitions fixed term act.

    Ironically if the polls turned against you, you’d get it, unless you blocked it.

    The gap between Tory and labour can narrow a lot without labour movement if Faragists tick upward. Which they will do now after the Cummings Boris cock up this week.
    Are you so sure there is no election coming if the EU extends until 31st December - for the purposes of holding an election (not a second referendum), with no further extensions possible.
    Yes. I’m quite sure. 🙂Neither Boris or his new friends and helpers in Brussels and throughout Europe can mandate parliament into a GE. What makes you so sure they can?

    The extension is for the Boris deal v revoke confirmatory ref as it in the only option left to Cummings Boris and the EU.
    Do you ever think before you write

    An extension could be just a few weeks for the deal to go through (technical) otherwise to the 31st December if the HOC indicates it wants a GE, and much more unlikely an extension to Summer 2020 for a referendum

    Revoke will not happen unless the Lib Dems win a majority

    I hope that helps clarify it for you
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131

    viewcode said:

    geoffw said:

    viewcode said:

    Quick question.

    Today GBP is 1.29USD and 1.16EUR. What will it be in a week's time?

    Viewcode, you surely understand that no-one here can answer that because if they could they would be extremely wealthy by now and their time would be too valuable to bother.
    Yes you are right, but it's worth a try.. :(

    I find that if I ask people questions, most will respond with chatty or irrelevant responses, some will simply not know, some will sincerely try to answer but fail, but occasionally one will respond knowledgeably and provide info that I could not easily find out otherwise.

    Are you better. You seemed under the weather last evening
    A bit. Thank you for asking.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Gabs2 said:

    Gabs2 said:

    Zephyr said:

    nico67 said:

    I haven't been keeping up today. Could somebody explain why Johnson didn't want to pass the vote with the amendment attached?

    It did pass, as amended, it just wasnt voted on. So essentially it says that parliament is withholding approval of the deal for now.
    No I thought that as well. But apparently I am being told it didn't. It was pulled. Can someone clarify.
    Some of the media are clueless . What happened , as soon as the Letwin Amendment went through it changed the motion . I’m not one to defend Johnson but it was pointless putting it to a division after that . It was nodded through because MPs who voted for the amendment weren’t going to suddenly change their minds two minutes later .

    This is the big difference in Amendments, you get some which just add to a motion but don’t change its core aim and the amendments which effectively render the original motions core aim changed .
    The way i see it it’s vandalism, a polite way of explaining Letwin is Boris wrote “we heartily, with voom and vigour endorse this deal” and Letwin added the word don’t until every bit has been scrutinised and changed possibly between we and heartily, and then said vote that instead.

    Which makes me surprised anyone anywhere counting the Letwins on Boris column. To tell you they are supporting Letwin and Boris doesn’t stack up logically, because they know if they had chance to do that it’s clearly going to make it unpalatable for ERG to be on board.
    Well Letwin himself has said he is supporting the Deal which rather shoots down your theory.
    Letwin is a liar.
    you mean guilty of terminological inexactitudes?
    Describing an amendment that says "withholds approval" as meaning "gives approval" is more than inexactitude.
    Yes but tempering language on here is advisable...
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    Back from the march. Different from the one in March. People much more ready to chip in with "Bollocks to Brexit!" Got the sense that Remainers are getting a bit more comfortable shouting for their beliefs. Livelier atmosphere, less stifled and middle class. Crowd was denser than last time. Shoulder to shoulder for a solid 2 miles. Packed in like sardines on Whitehall even after the rain had been going for a solid 15 minutes.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    edited October 2019
    It might have slipped under the radar on here but there were some major drama at the end today in the Commons.

    The government is attempting to bring MV5 to the Commons on Monday and trying to get rid of the Letwin amendment with some technical ruse .

    What this means is if they manage this they can get the MV through and that removes the Benn Act .

    What’s also seems to be likely is that they’re now worried about what happens in the European Parliament as to whether that will have time to ratify the deal .

    If they have to bring the WAIB and not the MV then it’s impossible for the E.U. Parliament to ratify that in time meaning the E.U. council have no choice but to grant the extension well before the deadline .

    Bercow is going to make a ruling on Monday , stay tuned for more drama.
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268
    Is the Remainer plan to hold a General Election off long enough for Corbyn to be taken out by the Blairite wing of the party?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    Surely Dominic Cummings has to resign now if Boris is writing the letter. He is not the right skills set for Goverment. Cumming's is an oppositionalist not someone who understands Parliament or Government for that matter!:😉 So maybe Cummings will be in the ditch...

    Cummings will be off as soon as the WAIB passes
    Never then.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    Jonathan said:

    One conclusion today is that Boris has quite unexpectedly united the conservative party with only one or two exceptions

    That is a very big positive with a GE just round the corner

    Until the next time he uses his nasty persona. I worry about you.
    Please do not worry about me.

    I have my lovely wife of 55 years and family who do that

    And I am pleased to be back in the fold with many of those conservatives mps who had the whip removed, causing my resignation, and who have voted with the government today.

    And by the way, please do not worry for them either
    Have the MPs had the whip reinstated?
    It has been reported that the rebels have to climb a ladder, vote for the waib, vote for the QS and then vote for the budget on Nov 6th. Only then whip restored.
    I think that sounds like a fools erand! Those 20 odd MPs must be stupid if they believe they will get the whip back imo...
  • Jonathan said:

    One conclusion today is that Boris has quite unexpectedly united the conservative party with only one or two exceptions

    That is a very big positive with a GE just round the corner

    Until the next time he uses his nasty persona. I worry about you.
    Please do not worry about me.

    I have my lovely wife of 55 years and family who do that

    And I am pleased to be back in the fold with many of those conservatives mps who had the whip removed, causing my resignation, and who have voted with the government today.

    And by the way, please do not worry for them either
    Have the MPs had the whip reinstated?
    Not yet but it will happen
  • Zephyr said:

    nico67 said:

    I haven't been keeping up today. Could somebody explain why Johnson didn't want to pass the vote with the amendment attached?

    It did pass, as amended, it just wasnt voted on. So essentially it says that parliament is withholding approval of the deal for now.
    No I thought that as well. But apparently I am being told it didn't. It was pulled. Can someone clarify.
    Some of the media are clueless . What happened , as soon as the Letwin Amendment went through it changed the motion . I’m not one to defend Johnson but it was pointless putting it to a division after that . It was nodded through because MPs who voted for the amendment weren’t going to suddenly change their minds two minutes later .

    This is the big difference in Amendments, you get some which just add to a motion but don’t change its core aim and the amendments which effectively render the original motions core aim changed .
    The way i see it it’s vandalism, a polite way of explaining Letwin is Boris wrote “we heartily, with voom and vigour endorse this deal” and Letwin added the word don’t until every bit has been scrutinised and changed possibly between we and heartily, and then said vote that instead.

    Which makes me surprised anyone anywhere counting the Letwins on Boris column. To tell you they are supporting Letwin and Boris doesn’t stack up logically, because they know if they had chance to do that it’s clearly going to make it unpalatable for ERG to be on board.
    Re your last paragraph and with respect you are wrong. After Letwin won the vote he said that he supports the deal and will do everything he can to see it pass for the 31st

    As I have said today all wings of the conservative party came together, other than a handful who want to stop brexit, but who will not be in the party at the next GE
    Zephyr is reaching HYUFD levels of certainty. I suspect his declarations of fact will be about as realistic as well.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Scott_P said:
    I dont think he has restored the whip to any of the 20 odd MPs he expelled. Something fishy going on here with BJ...
    No deal no deal no deal
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited October 2019
    Conservative and Labour tribalism is a strange thing ; the need to belong, and in the Conservative case, the need to look up to authority, too. Ultimately the weakening of Labour tribalism through its internal conflict may allow the new Conservative populism to dominate.
  • geoffw said:

    Surely Dominic Cummings has to resign now if Boris is writing the letter. He is not the right skills set for Goverment. Cumming's is an oppositionalist not someone who understands Parliament or Government for that matter!:😉 So maybe Cummings will be in the ditch...

    He was due to go on the 31st. So a few more weeks then he is gone.
    Doesn't he have a personal timetable - a delayed operation?
    I think you may be right
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627
    Scott_P said:
    Political journalists are collectively losing the plot here. How did the PM boycott a vote today? He was there and he voted in every division.
  • Noo said:

    Back from the march. Different from the one in March. People much more ready to chip in with "Bollocks to Brexit!" Got the sense that Remainers are getting a bit more comfortable shouting for their beliefs. Livelier atmosphere, less stifled and middle class. Crowd was denser than last time. Shoulder to shoulder for a solid 2 miles. Packed in like sardines on Whitehall even after the rain had been going for a solid 15 minutes.

    And just as pointless.
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268

    Gabs2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Zephyr said:

    Zephyr said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Karma’s a bitch.

    That’s what comes when you have a reputation for being utterly untrustworthy. No-one trusts you.

    People are getting over-excited though.

    1. He sends the letter.
    2. EU wait. They have no obligation to respond immediately.
    3. Boris introduces WA bill next week.
    4. It passes by 31/10.
    5. Problem solved.
    6. If it needs a bit more time to complete its legislative passage EU gives UK a bit more time.

    The real fireworks start if either (a) it gets voted down and/or (b) a referendum is tacked onto it.

    I don’t feel sorry for him at all. He is one of the chief architects of this mess.

    I also hope there is no GE soon so that he is left dangling in office but not in power, though it would be very nice indeed to see Corbyn soundly defeated. Let the Tories get on with taking responsibility for what they started.

    No-one is noticing that this deal is much worse than May’s deal.

    Why do you feel it's a much worse deal?
    al.
    Aren't those the people in the devolved government ?
    It’s a very sensitive and complicated political situation, has been for more than a century. Someone please explain this to Boris and the ERG turncoats.

    But that's not what the DUP want is it.

    What they want is to have a veto about all matters Northern Ireland.
    This times 1000.

    How many other parts of the first world have these sectarian vetos and rules that minimum percentages of this community or that group need to approve everything ?

    Its demeaning to Britain that we allow and fund this bigoted bollox.

    Northern Ireland should work on the same rules the rest of us do or it should be bye-bye.
    I heard similar things from my arch Conservative parents today. I think the DUP have made a catastrophic error in severing the support of the only major UK party that looked out for them. No one beyond a half dozen ERGers will be fighting for them to stay in the union now.
    I see a new rationale for ending the union emerging - it's sectarian.

    The sectarianism was fine when seen to promote Britain's power and interests among these islands and beyond, ofcourse.
    As a Jew I don't really care about Christianity's internal squabbles.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    Scott_P said:
    I dont think he has restored the whip to any of the 20 odd MPs he expelled. Something fishy going on here with BJ...
    BIG G thinks he has and that's enough for him.

    Boris never lies
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Noo said:

    Back from the march. Different from the one in March. People much more ready to chip in with "Bollocks to Brexit!" Got the sense that Remainers are getting a bit more comfortable shouting for their beliefs. Livelier atmosphere, less stifled and middle class. Crowd was denser than last time. Shoulder to shoulder for a solid 2 miles. Packed in like sardines on Whitehall even after the rain had been going for a solid 15 minutes.

    You mean Remainers are getting nastier? We noticed when JRM and his children needed a police escort to leave Parliament. ;)
  • ZephyrZephyr Posts: 438

    Zephyr said:

    Zephyr said:

    Zephyr said:

    One conclusion today is that Boris has quite unexpectedly united the conservative party with only one or two exceptions

    That is a very big positive with a GE just round the corner

    Well exactly this.



    When’s Corbyn allowing you a GE? 😃
    After no deal taken off the table. He said so.

    Or is he a liar too?
    There’s no election coming. You know it. I know. Everybody know it. Simple maff after the coalitions fixed term act.

    Ironically if the polls turned against you, you’d get it, unless you blocked it.

    The gap between Tory and labour can narrow a lot without labour movement if Faragists tick upward. Which they will do now after the Cummings Boris cock up this week.
    Are you so sure there is no election coming if the EU extends until 31st December - for the purposes of holding an election (not a second referendum), with no further extensions possible.
    Yes. I’m quite sure. 🙂Neither Boris or his new friends and helpers in Brussels and throughout Europe can mandate parliament into a GE. What makes you so sure they can?

    The extension is for the Boris deal v revoke confirmatory ref as it in the only option left to Cummings Boris and the EU.
    It really is not.
    Name the others. 🙂

    Boris has bottled out no deal.
    Labour blocks GE
    And EU told Boris if he can’t get his deal through they want confirmatory vote on it in the extension.
    The confirmatory vote can’t be yes or no to deal as what would no mean, it must be deal v revoke.

    Boris is up to his eyebrows in it.
    Two last hopes, getting his through parliament or winning the deal v revoke in country.
  • viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    geoffw said:

    viewcode said:

    Quick question.

    Today GBP is 1.29USD and 1.16EUR. What will it be in a week's time?

    Viewcode, you surely understand that no-one here can answer that because if they could they would be extremely wealthy by now and their time would be too valuable to bother.
    Yes you are right, but it's worth a try.. :(

    I find that if I ask people questions, most will respond with chatty or irrelevant responses, some will simply not know, some will sincerely try to answer but fail, but occasionally one will respond knowledgeably and provide info that I could not easily find out otherwise.

    Are you better. You seemed under the weather last evening
    A bit. Thank you for asking.
    I hope you soon recover. Best wishes
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited October 2019
    nico67 said:

    Bercow is going to make a ruling on Monday , stay tuned for more drama.

    He had a discussion with Letwin shortly after which seemed to suggest BoZo's latest cunning wheeze is not in order.

    A vote on Monday would be a repeat of today, which they can't do in this session.

    They would need to prorogue, and have another Queen's Speech :)
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    Jonathan said:

    One conclusion today is that Boris has quite unexpectedly united the conservative party with only one or two exceptions

    That is a very big positive with a GE just round the corner

    Until the next time he uses his nasty persona. I worry about you.
    Please do not worry about me.

    I have my lovely wife of 55 years and family who do that

    And I am pleased to be back in the fold with many of those conservatives mps who had the whip removed, causing my resignation, and who have voted with the government today.

    And by the way, please do not worry for them either
    Have the MPs had the whip reinstated?
    It has been reported that the rebels have to climb a ladder, vote for the waib, vote for the QS and then vote for the budget on Nov 6th. Only then whip restored.
    I think that sounds like a fools erand! Those 20 odd MPs must be stupid if they believe they will get the whip back imo...
    The choice they have is guaranteed P45 or a percentage chance they keep their seat. Their association may vote to remove them irrespective of what Boris does with the whip.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Noo said:

    Back from the march. Different from the one in March. People much more ready to chip in with "Bollocks to Brexit!" Got the sense that Remainers are getting a bit more comfortable shouting for their beliefs. Livelier atmosphere, less stifled and middle class. Crowd was denser than last time. Shoulder to shoulder for a solid 2 miles. Packed in like sardines on Whitehall even after the rain had been going for a solid 15 minutes.

    I looked into going on it but decided i did not want to run the risk of being confronted by Brexiteers. I dont think i would have liked the shouting either! Good on you for going. :smiley:
  • Scott_P said:
    I dont think he has restored the whip to any of the 20 odd MPs he expelled. Something fishy going on here with BJ...
    BIG G thinks he has and that's enough for him.

    Boris never lies
    Not yet BJO. A few more votes for them to pass to regain the whip but they will
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268

    Conservative and Labour tribalism is a strange thing ; the need to belong, and in the Conservative case, the need to look up to authority, too. Ultimately the weakening of Labour tribalism through its internal conflict may allow the new Conservative populism to dominate.

    Now the Tories have a deal they are behind, they will attract many outside of traditional Tory tribalists.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,724
    Noo said:

    Back from the march. Different from the one in March. People much more ready to chip in with "Bollocks to Brexit!" Got the sense that Remainers are getting a bit more comfortable shouting for their beliefs. Livelier atmosphere, less stifled and middle class. Crowd was denser than last time. Shoulder to shoulder for a solid 2 miles. Packed in like sardines on Whitehall even after the rain had been going for a solid 15 minutes.

    Bit quieter where I was, but big crowds and lots more Labour folk than previous. I agree that less stifled. It was fairly easy to get them going with my megaphone.

    Boris Boris Boris Out Out Out!

    Lock him up! Lock him up!

    The lies on the bus go round and round...

    Etc etc
  • Jonathan said:

    One conclusion today is that Boris has quite unexpectedly united the conservative party with only one or two exceptions

    That is a very big positive with a GE just round the corner

    Until the next time he uses his nasty persona. I worry about you.
    Please do not worry about me.

    I have my lovely wife of 55 years and family who do that

    And I am pleased to be back in the fold with many of those conservatives mps who had the whip removed, causing my resignation, and who have voted with the government today.

    And by the way, please do not worry for them either
    Have the MPs had the whip reinstated?
    It has been reported that the rebels have to climb a ladder, vote for the waib, vote for the QS and then vote for the budget on Nov 6th. Only then whip restored.
    I think that sounds like a fools erand! Those 20 odd MPs must be stupid if they believe they will get the whip back imo...
    Good to see IMHO to be fair
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Sandpit said:

    How did the PM boycott a vote today? He was there and he voted in every division.

    There was no division on the main motion. BoZo boycotted it.
  • Evening all! Slumming it in Barcelona this week😀
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited October 2019
    Gabs2 said:

    Gabs2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Zephyr said:

    Zephyr said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Karma’s a bitch

    Why do you feel it's a much worse deal?
    al.
    Aren't those the people in the devolved government ?
    It’s a very sensitive and complicated political situation, has been for more than a century. Someone please explain this to Boris and the ERG turncoats.

    But that's not what the DUP want is it.

    What they want is to have a veto about all matters Northern Ireland.
    This times 1000.

    How many other parts of the first world have these sectarian vetos and rules that minimum percentages of this community or that group need to approve everything ?

    Its demeaning to Britain that we allow and fund this bigoted bollox.

    Northern Ireland should work on the same rules the rest of us do or it should be bye-bye.
    I heard similar things from my arch Conservative parents today. I think the DUP have made a catastrophic error in severing the support of the only major UK party that looked out for them. No one beyond a half dozen ERGers will be fighting for them to stay in the union now.
    I see a new rationale for ending the union emerging - it's sectarian.

    The sectarianism was fine when seen to promote Britain's power and interests among these islands and beyond, ofcourse.
    As a Jew I don't really care about Christianity's internal squabbles.
    That being so or not, the point is more that it's simply a new expedient rationale for discarding Northern Ireland from the Union, and ultimately, in the future, discarding the whole Union too, if Scottish sectarian considerations are taken into account, that has never been employed by Tories historically.
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268
    Scott_P said:

    nico67 said:

    Bercow is going to make a ruling on Monday , stay tuned for more drama.

    He had a discussion with Letwin shortly after which seemed to suggest BoZo's latest cunning wheeze is not in order.

    A vote on Monday would be a repeat of today, which they can't do in this session.

    They would need to prorogue, and have another Queen's Speech :)
    Not really. The amended bill voted on is meaningfully different from the bill that will be put on Monday.

    But it doesn't surprise me Bercow is plotting with Letwin. He has disgraced the Speakership.
This discussion has been closed.