Despite being told in the morning the Deal would go through and the Letwin Amendment would fail, Letwin won easily and perhaps there's a salient lesson about not crapping too close to your own doorstep.
In trying to get a different WA and one which he believed could get him home and over the line by 31/10, Johnson conceded too much to the EU in terms of Northern Ireland or at least that's how the DUP see it and their ten votes sealed Johnson's fate by getting Letwin over the line. Had they voted against, the mood tonight would be very different.
The price of the much vaunted "unity" within the Conservative Party has been the alienation of an ally and another lesson to all and sundry that Johnson will always tell you what he thinks you want to hear and then knife you in the back once you're out the room.
More time allows more time to scrutinise the new WA - what has been conceded? What will be the impacts on the economy and on the Union? Perhaps Johnson hoped the sheer sense of fatigue and frustration would mean people wouldn't look at this shiny new Deal too closely but the truth is bad legislation is still bad legislation however much people want to see it enacted.
We don't in normal life sign vital documents pertinent to our to our family's future and well-bring without reading them carefully so why are we so anxious to push this vital piece of legislation through without adequate scrutiny?
I care nothing for Boris Johnson or his ditch - he can fall in it and rot in it as far as I'm concerned. He's only the Prime Minister - the country's future is worth far more than one person's political reputation.
I'm sure he still has cards to play to weasel his way out of this.
I haven't been keeping up today. Could somebody explain why Johnson didn't want to pass the vote with the amendment attached?
It did pass, as amended, it just wasnt voted on. So essentially it says that parliament is withholding approval of the deal for now.
No I thought that as well. But apparently I am being told it didn't. It was pulled. Can someone clarify.
Some of the media are clueless . What happened , as soon as the Letwin Amendment went through it changed the motion . I’m not one to defend Johnson but it was pointless putting it to a division after that . It was nodded through because MPs who voted for the amendment weren’t going to suddenly change their minds two minutes later .
This is the big difference in Amendments, you get some which just add to a motion but don’t change its core aim and the amendments which effectively render the original motions core aim changed .
The way i see it it’s vandalism, a polite way of explaining Letwin is Boris wrote “we heartily, with voom and vigour endorse this deal” and Letwin added the word don’t until every bit has been scrutinised and changed possibly between we and heartily, and then said vote that instead.
Which makes me surprised anyone anywhere counting the Letwins on Boris column. To tell you they are supporting Letwin and Boris doesn’t stack up logically, because they know if they had chance to do that it’s clearly going to make it unpalatable for ERG to be on board.
Well Letwin himself has said he is supporting the Deal which rather shoots down your theory.
Letwin is a liar.
The prime minister lied to the monarch. If you disapprove of lying, at least be consistent.
I haven't been keeping up today. Could somebody explain why Johnson didn't want to pass the vote with the amendment attached?
It did pass, as amended, it just wasnt voted on. So essentially it says that parliament is withholding approval of the deal for now.
No I thought that as well. But apparently I am being told it didn't. It was pulled. Can someone clarify.
Some of the media are clueless . What happened , as soon as the Letwin Amendment went through it changed the motion . I’m not one to defend Johnson but it was pointless putting it to a division after that . It was nodded through because MPs who voted for the amendment weren’t going to suddenly change their minds two minutes later .
This is the big difference in Amendments, you get some which just add to a motion but don’t change its core aim and the amendments which effectively render the original motions core aim changed .
The way i see it it’s vandalism, a polite way of explaining Letwin is Boris wrote “we heartily, with voom and vigour endorse this deal” and Letwin added the word don’t until every bit has been scrutinised and changed possibly between we and heartily, and then said vote that instead.
Which makes me surprised anyone anywhere counting the Letwins on Boris column. To tell you they are supporting Letwin and Boris doesn’t stack up logically, because they know if they had chance to do that it’s clearly going to make it unpalatable for ERG to be on board.
Well Letwin himself has said he is supporting the Deal which rather shoots down your theory.
Letwin is a liar.
The prime minister lied to the monarch. If you disapprove of lying, at least be consistent.
I have already condemned the prorogation multiple times.
One conclusion today is that Boris has quite unexpectedly united the conservative party with only one or two exceptions
That is a very big positive with a GE just round the corner
Until the next time he uses his nasty persona. I worry about you.
Please do not worry about me.
I have my lovely wife of 55 years and family who do that
And I am pleased to be back in the fold with many of those conservatives mps who had the whip removed, causing my resignation, and who have voted with the government today.
And by the way, please do not worry for them either
Have the MPs had the whip reinstated?
It has been reported that the rebels have to climb a ladder, vote for the waib, vote for the QS and then vote for the budget on Nov 6th. Only then whip restored.
I think that sounds like a fools erand! Those 20 odd MPs must be stupid if they believe they will get the whip back imo...
The choice they have is guaranteed P45 or a percentage chance they keep their seat. Their association may vote to remove them irrespective of what Boris does with the whip.
Last sentence about associations: Exactly. They are already in the ditch...
One conclusion today is that Boris has quite unexpectedly united the conservative party with only one or two exceptions
That is a very big positive with a GE just round the corner
Well exactly this.
When’s Corbyn allowing you a GE? 😃
After no deal taken off the table. He said so.
Or is he a liar too?
There’s no election coming. You know it. I know. Everybody know it. Simple maff after the coalitions fixed term act.
Ironically if the polls turned against you, you’d get it, unless you blocked it.
The gap between Tory and labour can narrow a lot without labour movement if Faragists tick upward. Which they will do now after the Cummings Boris cock up this week.
Are you so sure there is no election coming if the EU extends until 31st December - for the purposes of holding an election (not a second referendum), with no further extensions possible.
Yes. I’m quite sure. 🙂Neither Boris or his new friends and helpers in Brussels and throughout Europe can mandate parliament into a GE. What makes you so sure they can?
The extension is for the Boris deal v revoke confirmatory ref as it in the only option left to Cummings Boris and the EU.
It really is not.
Name the others. 🙂
Boris has bottled out no deal. Labour blocks GE And EU told Boris if he can’t get his deal through they want confirmatory vote on it in the extension. The confirmatory vote can’t be yes or no to deal as what would no mean, it must be deal v revoke.
Boris is up to his eyebrows in it. Two last hopes, getting his through parliament or winning the deal v revoke in country.
You have no basis for your nonsense nor are you listening to informed comment both on here and in the media
You are merely reflecting your wish list with lots of unicorns
What’s the bloody problem he writes a letter, brings back his wonderful deal after the house have passed the WAIB then he says we don’t need the extension. There is more going on but I really don’t know what. If he can’t pass hisWAIB then he has problems but that can’t possible because it’s a wonderful deal and far better than what we currently have so therefore no problem
One conclusion today is that Boris has quite unexpectedly united the conservative party with only one or two exceptions
That is a very big positive with a GE just round the corner
Well exactly this.
When’s Corbyn allowing you a GE? 😃
After no deal taken off the table. He said so.
Or is he a liar too?
There’s no election coming. You know it. I know. Everybody know it. Simple maff after the coalitions fixed term act.
Ironically if the polls turned against you, you’d get it, unless you blocked it.
The gap between Tory and labour can narrow a lot without labour movement if Faragists tick upward. Which they will do now after the Cummings Boris cock up this week.
Are you so sure there is no election coming if the EU extends until 31st December - for the purposes of holding an election (not a second referendum), with no further extensions possible.
Yes. I’m quite sure. 🙂Neither Boris or his new friends and helpers in Brussels and throughout Europe can mandate parliament into a GE. What makes you so sure they can?
The extension is for the Boris deal v revoke confirmatory ref as it in the only option left to Cummings Boris and the EU.
It really is not.
Name the others. 🙂
Boris has bottled out no deal. Labour blocks GE And EU told Boris if he can’t get his deal through they want confirmatory vote on it in the extension. The confirmatory vote can’t be yes or no to deal as what would no mean, it must be deal v revoke.
Boris is up to his eyebrows in it. Two last hopes, getting his through parliament or winning the deal v revoke in country.
You have no basis for your nonsense nor are you listening to informed comment both on here and in the media
You are merely reflecting your wish list with lots of unicorns
Today GBP is 1.29USD and 1.16EUR. What will it be in a week's time?
Viewcode, you surely understand that no-one here can answer that because if they could they would be extremely wealthy by now and their time would be too valuable to bother.
Yes you are right, but it's worth a try..
I find that if I ask people questions, most will respond with chatty or irrelevant responses, some will simply not know, some will sincerely try to answer but fail, but occasionally one will respond knowledgeably and provide info that I could not easily find out otherwise.
I'm one of the ones who tried and failed. I still stand by my prediction that the pound will slump, but that's based on my pessimistic outcome for the politics of it all. If I'm wrong about that, I'm probably wrong about the pound too.
You have to understand that the whole point of the price being a particular value at a particular time is that the market reckons the value of buying for future gains is equal to the value of selling for future losses. This is not the same as saying it's equally likely to go up or down, but it nearly is.
Simplistic scenario: a future political or economic event is coming. Under outcome A, the £ will be worth 1.12€. Under outcome B, the £ will go up to 1.20€. The chances are 50/50 of either event. And expected price here will be 1.16€. But note the chances: it's equally likely to shoot up or down. If the chances were 75:25 you might expect the £ to be at €1.14. There's a 75% chance it'll fall a little, and a 25% it'll rise a lot. So the market price is closer to the likelier outcome.
You can think of it roughly like a formula: possible profit = price change x chance of happening. The way to make profit is either to have a better idea than the market consensus of the price change, or have a better idea than the consensus on the chances of the change happening.
Of course, there will be people pulling on the other end of that rope, people who believe they know better than both the market and you, so chances are unless you've got some superb data or an innovative analytic engine that gives you an edge, you're just guessing. Anybody who thinks they know what is going to happen to the pound in the coming week is balanced by an equal weight of money from people saying the opposite. If you ask ten experts and 9 say "it's going down", then that's not proof that it's going down. It probably means that the bigger gains are to be had on it going up, and you're likelier to lose than win. But that's a good value bet in some circumstances.
Back from the march. Different from the one in March. People much more ready to chip in with "Bollocks to Brexit!" Got the sense that Remainers are getting a bit more comfortable shouting for their beliefs. Livelier atmosphere, less stifled and middle class. Crowd was denser than last time. Shoulder to shoulder for a solid 2 miles. Packed in like sardines on Whitehall even after the rain had been going for a solid 15 minutes.
Just back too. It was enjoyable. There's a big difference between the Remain and Leave crowds when it comes to these demos. The Leave ones seem to attract a lot of quite thick and nasty people. The difference really is quite striking. It's a much bigger difference than 52/48, interestingly.
Some of the media are clueless . What happened , as soon as the Letwin Amendment went through it changed the motion . I’m not one to defend Johnson but it was pointless putting it to a division after that . It was nodded through because MPs who voted for the amendment weren’t going to suddenly change their minds two minutes later .
This is the big difference in Amendments, you get some which just add to a motion but don’t change its core aim and the amendments which effectively render the original motions core aim changed .
The way i see it it’s vandalism, a polite way of explaining Letwin is Boris wrote “we heartily, with voom and vigour endorse this deal” and Letwin added the word don’t until every bit has been scrutinised and changed possibly between we and heartily, and then said vote that instead.
Which makes me surprised anyone anywhere counting the Letwins on Boris column. To tell you they are supporting Letwin and Boris doesn’t stack up logically, because they know if they had chance to do that it’s clearly going to make it unpalatable for ERG to be on board.
Re your last paragraph and with respect you are wrong. After Letwin won the vote he said that he supports the deal and will do everything he can to see it pass for the 31st
As I have said today all wings of the conservative party came together, other than a handful who want to stop brexit, but who will not be in the party at the next GE
Zephyr is reaching HYUFD levels of certainty. I suspect his declarations of fact will be about as realistic as well.
You are right Richard, looking at this thread I sound like an anti matter version of HY. West wind to his east wind. I do need to think about that. I think I have explained the Letwin quite clearly in the above post though. It was a remainer coup to take control and rewrite the deal it didn’t say that on the packaging. Happy to be put right if wrong, but someone said the media hadn’t really picked up on that or explained that clearly yet, which is true, as is lots of posters here tonight havnt picked up on Boris difficulty to get the GE or MV win that gets him out of this mess. Boris has moved from a few days of triumph to deep trouble and the mood is slow to pick up on that. Probably the most serious thing from today for Boris, just before the voting it was clear to journo’s close to the Tory’s he didn’t have enough Labour votes to pass deal.
There is an explanation not explored by that article, that the linkedln account is comprised / clone one.
I had a similar weird experience recently from account of what appeared.to be an old friend. Correct picture, some details were right, but claiming a career in an area i know for a fact they could never be involved in.
How did the PM boycott a vote today? He was there and he voted in every division.
There was no division on the main motion. BoZo boycotted it.
No. And more no. There was no boycott. Why lie?
It’s actually quite simple the substantive motion as amended with letwin was put to the house with the majority of the original motion deleted was passed. I would say that under normal rules of debate an amendment that undermined the substantive would not be accepted but who am I to know.
Back from the march. Different from the one in March. People much more ready to chip in with "Bollocks to Brexit!" Got the sense that Remainers are getting a bit more comfortable shouting for their beliefs. Livelier atmosphere, less stifled and middle class. Crowd was denser than last time. Shoulder to shoulder for a solid 2 miles. Packed in like sardines on Whitehall even after the rain had been going for a solid 15 minutes.
Just back too. It was enjoyable. There's a big difference between the Remain and Leave crowds when it comes to these demos. The Leave ones seem to attract a lot of quite thick and nasty people. The difference really is quite striking. It's a much bigger difference than 52/48, interestingly.
The charitable interpretation is that the nice Leavers generally don't see the process as problematic, and see no need to demonstrate. Things are still going their way, even if they seen a large crowd assembling every few months to voice their opposition. The ones who have been threatening MPs are the extreme fringe and not representative of the general Leave population.
Back from the march. Different from the one in March. People much more ready to chip in with "Bollocks to Brexit!" Got the sense that Remainers are getting a bit more comfortable shouting for their beliefs. Livelier atmosphere, less stifled and middle class. Crowd was denser than last time. Shoulder to shoulder for a solid 2 miles. Packed in like sardines on Whitehall even after the rain had been going for a solid 15 minutes.
Bit quieter where I was, but big crowds and lots more Labour folk than previous. I agree that less stifled. It was fairly easy to get them going with my megaphone.
Boris Boris Boris Out Out Out!
Lock him up! Lock him up!
The lies on the bus go round and round...
Etc etc
I didn't hear "lock him up!", and I wouldn't have joined in on that one. "Put him on trial and if he's guilty, sentence him according to the guidelines!" is a little less pithy.
BoZo did not want a division. He told MPs not to vote. He boycotted it.
Which part of that is confusing you?
Watch the video! There was a vote on the amended motion which passed by ‘acclamation’ but because most of the original motion had been deleted then it was no longer ‘the meaningful’ vote
There is an explanation not explored by that article, that the linkedln account is comprised / clone one.
I had a similar weird experience recently from account of what appeared.to be an old friend. Correct picture, some details were right, but claiming a career in an area i know for a fact they could never be involved in.
Back from the march. Different from the one in March. People much more ready to chip in with "Bollocks to Brexit!" Got the sense that Remainers are getting a bit more comfortable shouting for their beliefs. Livelier atmosphere, less stifled and middle class. Crowd was denser than last time. Shoulder to shoulder for a solid 2 miles. Packed in like sardines on Whitehall even after the rain had been going for a solid 15 minutes.
Just back too. It was enjoyable. There's a big difference between the Remain and Leave crowds when it comes to these demos. The Leave ones seem to attract a lot of quite thick and nasty people. The difference really is quite striking. It's a much bigger difference than 52/48, interestingly.
The charitable interpretation is that the nice Leavers generally don't see the process as problematic, and see no need to demonstrate. Things are still going their way, even if they seen a large crowd assembling every few months to voice their opposition. The ones who have been threatening MPs are the extreme fringe and not representative of the general Leave population.
So you saw the remainers accosting JRM and his son and Leadsom then?
Typical examples of steady rational remainers or are they part of your “thick” element?
Back from the march. Different from the one in March. People much more ready to chip in with "Bollocks to Brexit!" Got the sense that Remainers are getting a bit more comfortable shouting for their beliefs. Livelier atmosphere, less stifled and middle class. Crowd was denser than last time. Shoulder to shoulder for a solid 2 miles. Packed in like sardines on Whitehall even after the rain had been going for a solid 15 minutes.
Just back too. It was enjoyable. There's a big difference between the Remain and Leave crowds when it comes to these demos. The Leave ones seem to attract a lot of quite thick and nasty people. The difference really is quite striking. It's a much bigger difference than 52/48, interestingly.
There were a few aging skinheads not far from the Cenotaph swearing and abusing the marchers, trying to start a fight. All rather sad and pathetic really.
Back from the march. Different from the one in March. People much more ready to chip in with "Bollocks to Brexit!" Got the sense that Remainers are getting a bit more comfortable shouting for their beliefs. Livelier atmosphere, less stifled and middle class. Crowd was denser than last time. Shoulder to shoulder for a solid 2 miles. Packed in like sardines on Whitehall even after the rain had been going for a solid 15 minutes.
Just back too. It was enjoyable. There's a big difference between the Remain and Leave crowds when it comes to these demos. The Leave ones seem to attract a lot of quite thick and nasty people. The difference really is quite striking. It's a much bigger difference than 52/48, interestingly.
There were a few aging skinheads not far from the Cenotaph swearing and abusing the marchers, trying to start a fight. All rather sad and pathetic really.
It's striking how old a lot of skinheads are nowadays. The younger far-right and EDL generally eschew the look.
Despite being told in the morning the Deal would go through and the Letwin Amendment would fail, Letwin won easily and perhaps there's a salient lesson about not crapping too close to your own doorstep.
In trying to get a different WA and one which he believed could get him home and over the line by 31/10, Johnson conceded too much to the EU in terms of Northern Ireland or at least that's how the DUP see it and their ten votes sealed Johnson's fate by getting Letwin over the line. Had they voted against, the mood tonight would be very different.
The price of the much vaunted "unity" within the Conservative Party has been the alienation of an ally and another lesson to all and sundry that Johnson will always tell you what he thinks you want to hear and then knife you in the back once you're out the room.
More time allows more time to scrutinise the new WA - what has been conceded? What will be the impacts on the economy and on the Union? Perhaps Johnson hoped the sheer sense of fatigue and frustration would mean people wouldn't look at this shiny new Deal too closely but the truth is bad legislation is still bad legislation however much people want to see it enacted.
We don't in normal life sign vital documents pertinent to our to our family's future and well-bring without reading them carefully so why are we so anxious to push this vital piece of legislation through without adequate scrutiny?
I care nothing for Boris Johnson or his ditch - he can fall in it and rot in it as far as I'm concerned. He's only the Prime Minister - the country's future is worth far more than one person's political reputation.
I'm sure he still has cards to play to weasel his way out of this.
Who told you that Letwin would fail and the deal go through? You need to change your advisors, or are you ramping non-existent hubris? Jog on.
I can't help but notice a parallel between Gordon Brown's childish behaviour in signing the Lisbon Treaty, furtively and apologetically after the other EU leaders had done so, and Boris Johnson declaring to the Commons that the law did not compel him to request an extension, and he wasn't going to do so, and then telling Tusk differently on the phone, and delaying sending the letter, presumably until after the first editions of the Sunday papers are printed.
Is everyone a twat like this? Have I done something twattish like that and conveniently forgotten about it, or is there something about our politics that positively selects for individuals that exhibit such risible behaviour?
It’s often said that Boris Johnson’s worst enemy is Boris Johnson. And that could prove the one factor that halts what feels like a tectonic shift towards his deal. The PM reacted to the Letwin defeat today with a defiant line that “I will not negotiate a delay with the EU and neither does the law compel me to do so.” But he told EU council president Donald Tusk in a phone call on Saturday night that he would send the delay letter before 11pm, as the Benn Act demands.
If he hadn’t sent the letter, he would have triggered the resignation of some cabinet ministers and he swiftly put at risk the votes of all those Hammonds and Gaukes. Yes, he could get into a spat in the courts that would prove to Brexit Party voters that he was dragged kicking and screaming into delaying Brexit beyond October 31, but in the process he would have jeopardised his best electoral weapon of all: a deal.
Back from the march. Different from the one in March. People much more ready to chip in with "Bollocks to Brexit!" Got the sense that Remainers are getting a bit more comfortable shouting for their beliefs. Livelier atmosphere, less stifled and middle class. Crowd was denser than last time. Shoulder to shoulder for a solid 2 miles. Packed in like sardines on Whitehall even after the rain had been going for a solid 15 minutes.
Bit quieter where I was, but big crowds and lots more Labour folk than previous. I agree that less stifled. It was fairly easy to get them going with my megaphone.
Boris Boris Boris Out Out Out!
Lock him up! Lock him up!
The lies on the bus go round and round...
Etc etc
I didn't hear "lock him up!", and I wouldn't have joined in on that one. "Put him on trial and if he's guilty, sentence him according to the guidelines!" is a little less pithy.
It was sung tongue in cheek to the Boris impersonator near the RAF club. He gave us a wave.
It’s entirely up to the Speaker whether or not to hold a division. Nothing to do with the PM.
Oh dear.
The speaker called for Ayes and Nos.
There was no division. BoZo boycotted the vote...
This is not complicated
Because nobody objected to the motion
There was a vote but not one that required a division don’t complicate things by fake news. Yes the Tory’s boycotted the vote but as it was substantially a rerun of the amendment vote there was no point. In this there is no conspiracy look elsewhere there are more profitable seams to mine
One conclusion today is that Boris has quite unexpectedly united the conservative party with only one or two exceptions
That is a very big positive with a GE just round the corner
Well exactly this.
When’s Corbyn allowing you a GE? 😃
After no deal taken off the table. He said so.
Or is he a liar too?
the new argument doing the rounds is that this deal is simply setting us up for no deal at the end of 2020. We could soon see the argument that there cannot be an election before the transition period is extended, any excuse to avoid an election in the immediate aftermath of Johnson's deal victory. Any election after his deal comes through needs to come several months down the line for Labour. The SNP and Lib Dems may decide they want one but it's in neither's interests for the tories to win a thumping majority anytime soon - both want hung parliaments.
Despite being told in the morning the Deal would go through and the Letwin Amendment would fail, Letwin won easily and perhaps there's a salient lesson about not crapping too close to your own doorstep.
In trying to get a different WA and one which he believed could get him home and over the line by 31/10, Johnson conceded too much to the EU in terms of Northern Ireland or at least that's how the DUP see it and their ten votes sealed Johnson's fate by getting Letwin over the line. Had they voted against, the mood tonight would be very different.
The price of the much vaunted "unity" within the Conservative Party has been the alienation of an ally and another lesson to all and sundry that Johnson will always tell you what he thinks you want to hear and then knife you in the back once you're out the room.
More time allows more time to scrutinise the new WA - what has been conceded? What will be the impacts on the economy and on the Union? Perhaps Johnson hoped the sheer sense of fatigue and frustration would mean people wouldn't look at this shiny new Deal too closely but the truth is bad legislation is still bad legislation however much people want to see it enacted.
We don't in normal life sign vital documents pertinent to our to our family's future and well-bring without reading them carefully so why are we so anxious to push this vital piece of legislation through without adequate scrutiny?
I care nothing for Boris Johnson or his ditch - he can fall in it and rot in it as far as I'm concerned. He's only the Prime Minister - the country's future is worth far more than one person's political reputation.
I'm sure he still has cards to play to weasel his way out of this.
Well said.
Boris painted himself into a corner, ended up with a worse deal, and betrayed his DUP supporters. Buying off the ERG may in the end cost him Brexit altogether, which will turn him into the least popular Conservative leader in living memory.
Back from the march. Different from the one in March. People much more ready to chip in with "Bollocks to Brexit!" Got the sense that Remainers are getting a bit more comfortable shouting for their beliefs. Livelier atmosphere, less stifled and middle class. Crowd was denser than last time. Shoulder to shoulder for a solid 2 miles. Packed in like sardines on Whitehall even after the rain had been going for a solid 15 minutes.
Just back too. It was enjoyable. There's a big difference between the Remain and Leave crowds when it comes to these demos. The Leave ones seem to attract a lot of quite thick and nasty people. The difference really is quite striking. It's a much bigger difference than 52/48, interestingly.
The charitable interpretation is that the nice Leavers generally don't see the process as problematic, and see no need to demonstrate. Things are still going their way, even if they seen a large crowd assembling every few months to voice their opposition. The ones who have been threatening MPs are the extreme fringe and not representative of the general Leave population.
So you saw the remainers accosting JRM and his son and Leadsom then?
Typical examples of steady rational remainers or are they part of your “thick” element?
Want to try that again? I'm defending Leavers against the idea that the extremists in their midst are representative of the whole movement. You can draw your own conclusions from that what I think about Remainers in general on the basis of some angry idiots. Jesus, you try to be nice, and there's always some thicko on hand to remind you not to bother. And for the avoidance of doubt, that's you. Specifically you.
Back from the march. Different from the one in March. People much more ready to chip in with "Bollocks to Brexit!" Got the sense that Remainers are getting a bit more comfortable shouting for their beliefs. Livelier atmosphere, less stifled and middle class. Crowd was denser than last time. Shoulder to shoulder for a solid 2 miles. Packed in like sardines on Whitehall even after the rain had been going for a solid 15 minutes.
How was the mood? Remain has to win the day next week to still have a chance.
Back from the march. Different from the one in March. People much more ready to chip in with "Bollocks to Brexit!" Got the sense that Remainers are getting a bit more comfortable shouting for their beliefs. Livelier atmosphere, less stifled and middle class. Crowd was denser than last time. Shoulder to shoulder for a solid 2 miles. Packed in like sardines on Whitehall even after the rain had been going for a solid 15 minutes.
Just back too. It was enjoyable. There's a big difference between the Remain and Leave crowds when it comes to these demos. The Leave ones seem to attract a lot of quite thick and nasty people. The difference really is quite striking. It's a much bigger difference than 52/48, interestingly.
There were a few aging skinheads not far from the Cenotaph swearing and abusing the marchers, trying to start a fight. All rather sad and pathetic really.
Whitehall was completely rammed when we got there about 4 - couldn't get much further than the theatre.
Back from the march. Different from the one in March. People much more ready to chip in with "Bollocks to Brexit!" Got the sense that Remainers are getting a bit more comfortable shouting for their beliefs. Livelier atmosphere, less stifled and middle class. Crowd was denser than last time. Shoulder to shoulder for a solid 2 miles. Packed in like sardines on Whitehall even after the rain had been going for a solid 15 minutes.
Just back too. It was enjoyable. There's a big difference between the Remain and Leave crowds when it comes to these demos. The Leave ones seem to attract a lot of quite thick and nasty people. The difference really is quite striking. It's a much bigger difference than 52/48, interestingly.
Isn't it the case that better educated and wealthier people have a greater stake in the status quo when they have done well out of the present set up. This is a large part of the difference in crowds. It tells us nothing about the merits of the matter. I imagine the crowds in the Peasants' revolt of 1381 or Kett's rebellion of 1549 were dimmer and smellier than John of Gaunt's or the Earl of Warwick's closest friends. But they still had a point.
Too few acknowledge that there is a perfectly decent case for both sides, and a better case still for that which seems now unattainable -a properly reformed EU.... EFTA still the best option IMHO but the bedlam has drowned it out.
Despite being told in the morning the Deal would go through and the Letwin Amendment would fail.
Who told you that and how many said so? The view from the punditocracy seemed mostly certain the Letwin amendment would pass as soon as it was announced. Are you taking a couple of comments and expanding that to a chorus line of people saying it would happen?
Back from the march. Different from the one in March. People much more ready to chip in with "Bollocks to Brexit!" Got the sense that Remainers are getting a bit more comfortable shouting for their beliefs. Livelier atmosphere, less stifled and middle class. Crowd was denser than last time. Shoulder to shoulder for a solid 2 miles. Packed in like sardines on Whitehall even after the rain had been going for a solid 15 minutes.
Just back too. It was enjoyable. There's a big difference between the Remain and Leave crowds when it comes to these demos. The Leave ones seem to attract a lot of quite thick and nasty people. The difference really is quite striking. It's a much bigger difference than 52/48, interestingly.
The charitable interpretation is that the nice Leavers generally don't see the process as problematic, and see no need to demonstrate. Things are still going their way, even if they seen a large crowd assembling every few months to voice their opposition. The ones who have been threatening MPs are the extreme fringe and not representative of the general Leave population.
So you saw the remainers accosting JRM and his son and Leadsom then?
Typical examples of steady rational remainers or are they part of your “thick” element?
Want to try that again? I'm defending Leavers against the idea that the extremists in their midst are representative of the whole movement. You can draw your own conclusions from that what I think about Remainers in general on the basis of some angry idiots. Jesus, you try to be nice, and there's always some thicko on hand to remind you not to bother. And for the avoidance of doubt, that you. Specifically you.
So nice to see rational remainers resorting to insults.
If you want to make personal attacks go ahead if it makes you feel better.
How did the PM boycott a vote today? He was there and he voted in every division.
There was no division on the main motion. BoZo boycotted it.
No. And more no. There was no boycott. Why lie?
It’s actually quite simple the substantive motion as amended with letwin was put to the house with the majority of the original motion deleted was passed. I would say that under normal rules of debate an amendment that undermined the substantive would not be accepted but who am I to know.
The amended motion 1 passed... ergo the unamended version of that motion no longer existed and was not be put to the vote. See Hansard @ 2:30pm (Columns 649 - 652 about 80% of the way down this long page)
Immediately afterwards Motion 2 (That this House approves the withdrawal with No Deal) was not moved by the Government... presumably since they knew they were going to lose.
Back from the march. Different from the one in March. People much more ready to chip in with "Bollocks to Brexit!" Got the sense that Remainers are getting a bit more comfortable shouting for their beliefs. Livelier atmosphere, less stifled and middle class. Crowd was denser than last time. Shoulder to shoulder for a solid 2 miles. Packed in like sardines on Whitehall even after the rain had been going for a solid 15 minutes.
Just back too. It was enjoyable. There's a big difference between the Remain and Leave crowds when it comes to these demos. The Leave ones seem to attract a lot of quite thick and nasty people. The difference really is quite striking. It's a much bigger difference than 52/48, interestingly.
There were a few aging skinheads not far from the Cenotaph swearing and abusing the marchers, trying to start a fight. All rather sad and pathetic really.
Whitehall was completely rammed when we got there about 4 - couldn't get much further than the theatre.
One wonders who these 49% of people continuing to tell pollsters they will vote con or Brexit are...
Back from the march. Different from the one in March. People much more ready to chip in with "Bollocks to Brexit!" Got the sense that Remainers are getting a bit more comfortable shouting for their beliefs. Livelier atmosphere, less stifled and middle class. Crowd was denser than last time. Shoulder to shoulder for a solid 2 miles. Packed in like sardines on Whitehall even after the rain had been going for a solid 15 minutes.
Just back too. It was enjoyable. There's a big difference between the Remain and Leave crowds when it comes to these demos. The Leave ones seem to attract a lot of quite thick and nasty people. The difference really is quite striking. It's a much bigger difference than 52/48, interestingly.
The charitable interpretation is that the nice Leavers generally don't see the process as problematic, and see no need to demonstrate. Things are still going their way, even if they seen a large crowd assembling every few months to voice their opposition. The ones who have been threatening MPs are the extreme fringe and not representative of the general Leave population.
So you saw the remainers accosting JRM and his son and Leadsom then?
Typical examples of steady rational remainers or are they part of your “thick” element?
Want to try that again? I'm defending Leavers against the idea that the extremists in their midst are representative of the whole movement. You can draw your own conclusions from that what I think about Remainers in general on the basis of some angry idiots. Jesus, you try to be nice, and there's always some thicko on hand to remind you not to bother. And for the avoidance of doubt, that you. Specifically you.
So nice to see rational remainers resorting to insults.
If you want to make personal attacks go ahead if it makes you feel better.
Back from the march. Different from the one in March. People much more ready to chip in with "Bollocks to Brexit!" Got the sense that Remainers are getting a bit more comfortable shouting for their beliefs. Livelier atmosphere, less stifled and middle class. Crowd was denser than last time. Shoulder to shoulder for a solid 2 miles. Packed in like sardines on Whitehall even after the rain had been going for a solid 15 minutes.
Just back too. It was enjoyable. There's a big difference between the Remain and Leave crowds when it comes to these demos. The Leave ones seem to attract a lot of quite thick and nasty people. The difference really is quite striking. It's a much bigger difference than 52/48, interestingly.
Isn't it the case that better educated and wealthier people have a greater stake in the status quo when they have done well out of the present set up. This is a large part of the difference in crowds. It tells us nothing about the merits of the matter. I imagine the crowds in the Peasants' revolt of 1381 or Kett's rebellion of 1549 were dimmer and smellier than John of Gaunt's or the Earl of Warwick's closest friends. But they still had a point.
Too few acknowledge that there is a perfectly decent case for both sides, and a better case still for that which seems now unattainable -a properly reformed EU.... EFTA still the best option IMHO but the bedlam has drowned it out.
I’m looking forward to the regeneration of north eastern towns That Johnson will seek to introduce, I sure it will be beyond parallel
I can't help but notice a parallel between Gordon Brown's childish behaviour in signing the Lisbon Treaty, furtively and apologetically after the other EU leaders had done so, and Boris Johnson declaring to the Commons that the law did not compel him to request an extension, and he wasn't going to do so, and then telling Tusk differently on the phone, and delaying sending the letter, presumably until after the first editions of the Sunday papers are printed.
Is everyone a twat like this? Have I done something twattish like that and conveniently forgotten about it, or is there something about our politics that positively selects for individuals that exhibit such risible behaviour?
I have noticed the comparative behaviour as well. I was against Gordon Brown and have found that I have no time for Johnson either.
Back from the march. Different from the one in March. People much more ready to chip in with "Bollocks to Brexit!" Got the sense that Remainers are getting a bit more comfortable shouting for their beliefs. Livelier atmosphere, less stifled and middle class. Crowd was denser than last time. Shoulder to shoulder for a solid 2 miles. Packed in like sardines on Whitehall even after the rain had been going for a solid 15 minutes.
Just back too. It was enjoyable. There's a big difference between the Remain and Leave crowds when it comes to these demos. The Leave ones seem to attract a lot of quite thick and nasty people. The difference really is quite striking. It's a much bigger difference than 52/48, interestingly.
There were a few aging skinheads not far from the Cenotaph swearing and abusing the marchers, trying to start a fight. All rather sad and pathetic really.
Whitehall was completely rammed when we got there about 4 - couldn't get much further than the theatre.
One wonders who these 49% of people continuing to tell pollsters they will vote con or Brexit are...
People who don't go on demonstrations or protest but do turn out and vote?
It’s entirely up to the Speaker whether or not to hold a division. Nothing to do with the PM.
Oh dear.
The speaker called for Ayes and Nos.
There was no division. BoZo boycotted the vote...
This is not complicated
It's not complicated, but I'm not clear what point you are making from it. What does it matter whether there was a vote on it or not? What does not forcing a division on it matter?
Back from the march. Different from the one in March. People much more ready to chip in with "Bollocks to Brexit!" Got the sense that Remainers are getting a bit more comfortable shouting for their beliefs. Livelier atmosphere, less stifled and middle class. Crowd was denser than last time. Shoulder to shoulder for a solid 2 miles. Packed in like sardines on Whitehall even after the rain had been going for a solid 15 minutes.
Just back too. It was enjoyable. There's a big difference between the Remain and Leave crowds when it comes to these demos. The Leave ones seem to attract a lot of quite thick and nasty people. The difference really is quite striking. It's a much bigger difference than 52/48, interestingly.
Leave voters don't need to demonstrate. We won.
It does seem though that the Remain demo hoovered up all the supremacist c***s in the land....
One conclusion today is that Boris has quite unexpectedly united the conservative party with only one or two exceptions
That is a very big positive with a GE just round the corner
Well exactly this.
When’s Corbyn allowing you a GE? 😃
After no deal taken off the table. He said so.
Or is he a liar too?
There’s no election coming. You know it. I know. Everybody know it. Simple maff after the coalitions fixed term act.
Ironically if the polls turned against you, you’d get it, unless you blocked it.
The gap between Tory and labour can narrow a lot without labour movement if Faragists tick upward. Which they will do now after the Cummings Boris cock up this week.
Are you so sure there is no election coming if the EU extends until 31st December - for the purposes of holding an election (not a second referendum), with no further extensions possible.
Yes. I’m quite sure. 🙂Neither Boris or his new friends and helpers in Brussels and throughout Europe can mandate parliament into a GE. What makes you so sure they can?
The extension is for the Boris deal v revoke confirmatory ref as it in the only option left to Cummings Boris and the EU.
It really is not.
Name the others. 🙂
Boris has bottled out no deal. Labour blocks GE And EU told Boris if he can’t get his deal through they want confirmatory vote on it in the extension. The confirmatory vote can’t be yes or no to deal as what would no mean, it must be deal v revoke.
Boris is up to his eyebrows in it. Two last hopes, getting his through parliament or winning the deal v revoke in country.
You have no basis for your nonsense nor are you listening to informed comment both on here and in the media
You are merely reflecting your wish list with lots of unicorns
Okay. 🙂. See you in a fortnight and we’ll see if you were justified to be so rude and patronising to me, as I explained Letwins mendacious trick better than media so far, doubted the numbers are there to pass the deal, honestly can’t see why labour like turkeys voting for Christmas push for a GE instead of confirmatory vote, and suspect EU will pressure for that as well if the deal falls.
It’s entirely up to the Speaker whether or not to hold a division. Nothing to do with the PM.
Oh dear.
The speaker called for Ayes and Nos.
There was no division. BoZo boycotted the vote...
This is not complicated
It's not complicated, but I'm not clear what point you are making from it. What does it matter whether there was a vote on it or not? What does not forcing a division on it matter?
He is trying to be 'clever' and failing.
It wasn't a boycott - but Scott won't give up on it.
22:59 send email. 23:00 send another email saying don't pay much attention to last email and take your time over deciding on extension and preferably give impression you won't give extension, while I try to get legislation passed. That way, hopefully you won't have to decide on extension. ?
Does time pressure to get legislation passed then appear to apply as 'avoid no deal' MPs won't be sure an extension will be granted?
Oh well. I'm sure they'll piss away any extension, just like they did with the previous one, and we'll be here again in January. In the meantime, business investment and confidence have been hit by another four month's delay.
Or maybe we'll get an election and a Parliament that knows what it wants?
Why does anybody think this is going to heal the division all they are interested is in winning and crapping on the 48% and the 2 million young people now over 18 who didn’t get a vote. There is no healing there is no coming together because there is nothing to come together around.
There are generally good reasons for such an approach, but given other standing orders have been suspended by others when they too were established for good reasons, I think the sanctimony is a bit unwarranted if Boris and co wanted to do something which was against a standing order.
It's like the rushing through legislation point - there may be justifiable reasons for the specific circumstances which led to rush of the Benn Act for example, but having done it in that instance it is hypocritical to act like it is an immutable line that should not be crossed as Boris now seeks to rush things, and having suspended Standing Orders to do that and other things, someone else wanting to go against those orders may well not be justified, but is not as stupid or as outrageous as is being pretended, and the high horse is unconvincing.
The importance of procedures seems to be very movable as far as both sides are concerned.
Ukip went fash some time ago. No surprises if what's alleged is true.
I remember when I warned on here UKIP was heading down the road of far right bigotry and Islamophobia but I was assured by the Kippers on here that was rubbish because they were anti racists and there's no way they'd ever be associated with anything like that.
Back from the march. Different from the one in March. People much more ready to chip in with "Bollocks to Brexit!" Got the sense that Remainers are getting a bit more comfortable shouting for their beliefs. Livelier atmosphere, less stifled and middle class. Crowd was denser than last time. Shoulder to shoulder for a solid 2 miles. Packed in like sardines on Whitehall even after the rain had been going for a solid 15 minutes.
Just back too. It was enjoyable. There's a big difference between the Remain and Leave crowds when it comes to these demos. The Leave ones seem to attract a lot of quite thick and nasty people. The difference really is quite striking. It's a much bigger difference than 52/48, interestingly.
Isn't it the case that better educated and wealthier people have a greater stake in the status quo when they have done well out of the present set up. This is a large part of the difference in crowds. It tells us nothing about the merits of the matter. I imagine the crowds in the Peasants' revolt of 1381 or Kett's rebellion of 1549 were dimmer and smellier than John of Gaunt's or the Earl of Warwick's closest friends. But they still had a point.
Too few acknowledge that there is a perfectly decent case for both sides, and a better case still for that which seems now unattainable -a properly reformed EU.... EFTA still the best option IMHO but the bedlam has drowned it out.
I don't think support for Brexit correlates strongly with income, because it is supported by older people (tend to be wealthier) and less well educated people (tend to be poorer). So I think the argument that Remainers are simply trying to hold on to their advantages is incorrect. I expect that Brexit will make me richer, for instance, but I oppose it because of its broader impact on the country (including making many of the people who support it poorer). I can see both sides of a lot of arguments, but I genuinely don't think there are strong arguments for Brexit that hold up to proper scrutiny. It's just a bad idea and a tragedy for our country.
The way i see it it’s vandalism, a polite way of explaining Letwin is Boris wrote “we heartily, with voom and vigour endorse this deal” and Letwin added the word don’t until every bit has been scrutinised and changed possibly between we and heartily, and then said vote that instead.
Which makes me surprised anyone anywhere counting the Letwins on Boris column. To tell you they are supporting Letwin and Boris doesn’t stack up logically, because they know if they had chance to do that it’s clearly going to make it unpalatable for ERG to be on board.
Re your last paragraph and with respect you are wrong. After Letwin won the vote he said that he supports the deal and will do everything he can to see it pass for the 31st
As I have said today all wings of the conservative party came together, other than a handful who want to stop brexit, but who will not be in the party at the next GE
Zephyr is reaching HYUFD levels of certainty. I suspect his declarations of fact will be about as realistic as well.
You are right Richard, looking at this thread I sound like an anti matter version of HY. West wind to his east wind. I do need to think about that. I think I have explained the Letwin quite clearly in the above post though. It was a remainer coup to take control and rewrite the deal it didn’t say that on the packaging. Happy to be put right if wrong, but someone said the media hadn’t really picked up on that or explained that clearly yet, which is true, as is lots of posters here tonight havnt picked up on Boris difficulty to get the GE or MV win that gets him out of this mess. Boris has moved from a few days of triumph to deep trouble and the mood is slow to pick up on that. Probably the most serious thing from today for Boris, just before the voting it was clear to journo’s close to the Tory’s he didn’t have enough Labour votes to pass deal.
In terms of parliament, if forced to judge I would tend towards your view of Letwin as a duplicitous creature and also think that the margin of 16 votes is enough to put in jeopardy Johnson's ability to deliver on his deal.
However, if he is in your words in "deep trouble" it is only in terms of the balance of votes in the current parliament. The antics in parliament today do not weaken him politically in the country and could strengthen his already strong position in the polls. Whatever happens by the end of the month, Johnson is now very well set up for a move to resign the government and to successfully VONC whoever tries to succeed him, from a position of strength in the opinion polls.
Despite being told in the morning the Deal would go through and the Letwin Amendment would fail.
Who told you that and how many said so? The view from the punditocracy seemed mostly certain the Letwin amendment would pass as soon as it was announced. Are you taking a couple of comments and expanding that to a chorus line of people saying it would happen?
I looked in during a pause from shopping at Lakeside with Mrs Stodge and the Telegraph were saying letwin would fall by 305 to 298 or something like that.
Naturally, several posts on here reflected that but I agree it was a snapshot in time.
How did the PM boycott a vote today? He was there and he voted in every division.
There was no division on the main motion. BoZo boycotted it.
No. And more no. There was no boycott. Why lie?
It’s actually quite simple the substantive motion as amended with letwin was put to the house with the majority of the original motion deleted was passed. I would say that under normal rules of debate an amendment that undermined the substantive would not be accepted but who am I to know.
The Letwin amendment to Motion 1 passed 322 to 306; the amended version of Motion 1 was then passed without division (since it was bound to pass having just been amended) See Hansard @ 2:30pm (Columns 649 - 652 about 80% of the way down this long page)
Immediately afterwards Motion 2 (That this House approves the withdrawal with No Deal) was not moved by the Government... presumably since they knew they were going to lose.
Why does anybody think this is going to heal the division all they are interested is in winning and crapping on the 48% and the 2 million young people now over 18 who didn’t get a vote. There is no healing there is no coming together because there is nothing to come together around.
How is leaving with a deal that's been negotiatied to the satisfaction of the UK and EU and Ireland "crapping on the 48%" ?
That would be leaving with No Deal.
If anything MPs representing the 48% are crapping on the 52% with their never ending game playing and delaying tactics.
Oh well. I'm sure they'll piss away any extension, just like they did with the previous one, and we'll be here again in January. In the meantime, business investment and confidence have been hit by another four month's delay.
Or maybe we'll get an election and a Parliament that knows what it wants?
Because the Johnson deal now leaves no deal a possibility in 14 months time there will still be a reluctance to invest in the UK. There are hidden gems in this deal that need to be unearthed.
Why does anybody think this is going to heal the division all they are interested is in winning and crapping on the 48% and the 2 million young people now over 18 who didn’t get a vote. There is no healing there is no coming together because there is nothing to come together around.
How is leaving with a deal that's been negotiatied to the satisfaction of the UK and EU and Ireland "crapping on the 48%" ?
That would be leaving with No Deal.
If anything MPs representing the 48% are crapping on the 52% with their never ending game playing and delaying tactics.
We'd only know that the deal was "to the satisfaction of the UK" if it were passed in a confirmatory referendum.
Back from the march. Different from the one in March. People much more ready to chip in with "Bollocks to Brexit!" Got the sense that Remainers are getting a bit more comfortable shouting for their beliefs. Livelier atmosphere, less stifled and middle class. Crowd was denser than last time. Shoulder to shoulder for a solid 2 miles. Packed in like sardines on Whitehall even after the rain had been going for a solid 15 minutes.
Just back too. It was enjoyable. There's a big difference between the Remain and Leave crowds when it comes to these demos. The Leave ones seem to attract a lot of quite thick and nasty people. The difference really is quite striking. It's a much bigger difference than 52/48, interestingly.
Isn't it the case that better educated and wealthier people have a greater stake in the status quo when they have done well out of the present set up. This is a large part of the difference in crowds. It tells us nothing about the merits of the matter. I imagine the crowds in the Peasants' revolt of 1381 or Kett's rebellion of 1549 were dimmer and smellier than John of Gaunt's or the Earl of Warwick's closest friends. But they still had a point.
Too few acknowledge that there is a perfectly decent case for both sides, and a better case still for that which seems now unattainable -a properly reformed EU.... EFTA still the best option IMHO but the bedlam has drowned it out.
An interesting comparison is the Countryside Alliance protests.
Also very large protests numerically, largely upper/middle-class well-heeled "comfortable" people on a well-mannered march, but mobilising largely because the political ascendancy had moved against them. They also thought they had right on their side, in that their life-perspective was in fact entirely reasonable, and opposed mainly by those ignorant of the details of their circumstances - people who would surely come around if they were given greater education.
I do think you'd see larger Leave crowds if there were a parliamentary vote to revoke Article 50.
Why does anybody think this is going to heal the division all they are interested is in winning and crapping on the 48% and the 2 million young people now over 18 who didn’t get a vote. There is no healing there is no coming together because there is nothing to come together around.
How is leaving with a deal that's been negotiatied to the satisfaction of the UK and EU and Ireland "crapping on the 48%" ?
That would be leaving with No Deal.
If anything MPs representing the 48% are crapping on the 52% with their never ending game playing and delaying tactics.
When leave come up with something we can all get behind which is better than what we have then I’ll support it, let me know when they do
Why does anybody think this is going to heal the division all they are interested is in winning and crapping on the 48% and the 2 million young people now over 18 who didn’t get a vote. There is no healing there is no coming together because there is nothing to come together around.
How is leaving with a deal that's been negotiatied to the satisfaction of the UK and EU and Ireland "crapping on the 48%" ?
That would be leaving with No Deal.
If anything MPs representing the 48% are crapping on the 52% with their never ending game playing and delaying tactics.
We'd only know that the deal was "to the satisfaction of the UK" if it were passed in a confirmatory referendum.
No deal vs deal?
Or are you just trying to rerun the first referendum in that classic EU favoured way of voting again until you get the result you want?
What’s the bloody problem he writes a letter, brings back his wonderful deal after the house have passed the WAIB then he says we don’t need the extension. There is more going on but I really don’t know what. If he can’t pass hisWAIB then he has problems but that can’t possible because it’s a wonderful deal and far better than what we currently have so therefore no problem
It could be because the Remainers in Parliament attempt to obstruct the WAIB in order to disrespect the public vote.
Comments
What to make of an extraordinary day?
Despite being told in the morning the Deal would go through and the Letwin Amendment would fail, Letwin won easily and perhaps there's a salient lesson about not crapping too close to your own doorstep.
In trying to get a different WA and one which he believed could get him home and over the line by 31/10, Johnson conceded too much to the EU in terms of Northern Ireland or at least that's how the DUP see it and their ten votes sealed Johnson's fate by getting Letwin over the line. Had they voted against, the mood tonight would be very different.
The price of the much vaunted "unity" within the Conservative Party has been the alienation of an ally and another lesson to all and sundry that Johnson will always tell you what he thinks you want to hear and then knife you in the back once you're out the room.
More time allows more time to scrutinise the new WA - what has been conceded? What will be the impacts on the economy and on the Union? Perhaps Johnson hoped the sheer sense of fatigue and frustration would mean people wouldn't look at this shiny new Deal too closely but the truth is bad legislation is still bad legislation however much people want to see it enacted.
We don't in normal life sign vital documents pertinent to our to our family's future and well-bring without reading them carefully so why are we so anxious to push this vital piece of legislation through without adequate scrutiny?
I care nothing for Boris Johnson or his ditch - he can fall in it and rot in it as far as I'm concerned. He's only the Prime Minister - the country's future is worth far more than one person's political reputation.
I'm sure he still has cards to play to weasel his way out of this.
https://twitter.com/joswinson/status/1185646185085845504
BBC News - Boris Johnson, Jennifer Arcuri, and the mysterious Annie Tacker
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50095698
I can see why she leads the Lib Dem’s.
You are merely reflecting your wish list with lots of unicorns
https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/10/19/johnson-defeated-it-s-now-a-guerilla-war-to-stop-his-brexit
Expect lots of scare stories in the coming days.
You have to understand that the whole point of the price being a particular value at a particular time is that the market reckons the value of buying for future gains is equal to the value of selling for future losses. This is not the same as saying it's equally likely to go up or down, but it nearly is.
Simplistic scenario: a future political or economic event is coming. Under outcome A, the £ will be worth 1.12€. Under outcome B, the £ will go up to 1.20€. The chances are 50/50 of either event. And expected price here will be 1.16€. But note the chances: it's equally likely to shoot up or down.
If the chances were 75:25 you might expect the £ to be at €1.14. There's a 75% chance it'll fall a little, and a 25% it'll rise a lot. So the market price is closer to the likelier outcome.
You can think of it roughly like a formula: possible profit = price change x chance of happening. The way to make profit is either to have a better idea than the market consensus of the price change, or have a better idea than the consensus on the chances of the change happening.
Of course, there will be people pulling on the other end of that rope, people who believe they know better than both the market and you, so chances are unless you've got some superb data or an innovative analytic engine that gives you an edge, you're just guessing. Anybody who thinks they know what is going to happen to the pound in the coming week is balanced by an equal weight of money from people saying the opposite. If you ask ten experts and 9 say "it's going down", then that's not proof that it's going down. It probably means that the bigger gains are to be had on it going up, and you're likelier to lose than win. But that's a good value bet in some circumstances.
The whole situation is controlled by the DM and Telegraph.
There surely can’t be any papers or media outlets in existence which can promote these stories?
With that in mind I wouldn’t worry about it as the message won’t be able to be conveyed.
I had a similar weird experience recently from account of what appeared.to be an old friend. Correct picture, some details were right, but claiming a career in an area i know for a fact they could never be involved in.
No
Why Not?
BoZo did not want a division. He told MPs not to vote. He boycotted it.
Which part of that is confusing you?
The ones who have been threatening MPs are the extreme fringe and not representative of the general Leave population.
"Put him on trial and if he's guilty, sentence him according to the guidelines!" is a little less pithy.
Typical examples of steady rational remainers or are they part of your “thick” element?
The speaker called for Ayes and Nos.
There was no division. BoZo boycotted the vote...
This is not complicated
Glad you got there in the end.
https://twitter.com/ThairShaikh/status/1185643500869693440
His target paper and audience.
(Gratuitous Hamilton reference).
Is everyone a twat like this? Have I done something twattish like that and conveniently forgotten about it, or is there something about our politics that positively selects for individuals that exhibit such risible behaviour?
If he hadn’t sent the letter, he would have triggered the resignation of some cabinet ministers and he swiftly put at risk the votes of all those Hammonds and Gaukes. Yes, he could get into a spat in the courts that would prove to Brexit Party voters that he was dragged kicking and screaming into delaying Brexit beyond October 31, but in the process he would have jeopardised his best electoral weapon of all: a deal.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson-brexit-vote-defeat-analysis_uk_5dab606fe4b08cfcc31c62cb
Boris painted himself into a corner, ended up with a worse deal, and betrayed his DUP supporters. Buying off the ERG may in the end cost him Brexit altogether, which will turn him into the least popular Conservative leader in living memory.
Jesus, you try to be nice, and there's always some thicko on hand to remind you not to bother. And for the avoidance of doubt, that's you. Specifically you.
Hacked or pissed up?
Too few acknowledge that there is a perfectly decent case for both sides, and a better case still for that which seems now unattainable -a properly reformed EU.... EFTA still the best option IMHO but the bedlam has drowned it out.
And it calls itself a "news" paper.....
If you want to make personal attacks go ahead if it makes you feel better.
Immediately afterwards Motion 2 (That this House approves the withdrawal with No Deal) was not moved by the Government... presumably since they knew they were going to lose.
https://twitter.com/ChrisLeslieMP/status/1185652864460435459
The silent majority?
It does seem though that the Remain demo hoovered up all the supremacist c***s in the land....
Sleep well till then old fella. 😌
It wasn't a boycott - but Scott won't give up on it.
https://twitter.com/jdpoc/status/1185512539318341632
23:00 send another email saying don't pay much attention to last email and take your time over deciding on extension and preferably give impression you won't give extension, while I try to get legislation passed. That way, hopefully you won't have to decide on extension.
?
Does time pressure to get legislation passed then appear to apply as 'avoid no deal' MPs won't be sure an extension will be granted?
If you don't think this will happen, why not?
Or maybe we'll get an election and a Parliament that knows what it wants?
Why does anybody think this is going to heal the division all they are interested is in winning and crapping on the 48% and the 2 million young people now over 18 who didn’t get a vote. There is no healing there is no coming together because there is nothing to come together around.
It's like the rushing through legislation point - there may be justifiable reasons for the specific circumstances which led to rush of the Benn Act for example, but having done it in that instance it is hypocritical to act like it is an immutable line that should not be crossed as Boris now seeks to rush things, and having suspended Standing Orders to do that and other things, someone else wanting to go against those orders may well not be justified, but is not as stupid or as outrageous as is being pretended, and the high horse is unconvincing.
The importance of procedures seems to be very movable as far as both sides are concerned.
I can see both sides of a lot of arguments, but I genuinely don't think there are strong arguments for Brexit that hold up to proper scrutiny. It's just a bad idea and a tragedy for our country.
However, if he is in your words in "deep trouble" it is only in terms of the balance of votes in the current parliament. The antics in parliament today do not weaken him politically in the country and could strengthen his already strong position in the polls. Whatever happens by the end of the month, Johnson is now very well set up for a move to resign the government and to successfully VONC whoever tries to succeed him, from a position of strength in the opinion polls.
Naturally, several posts on here reflected that but I agree it was a snapshot in time.
Immediately afterwards Motion 2 (That this House approves the withdrawal with No Deal) was not moved by the Government... presumably since they knew they were going to lose.
That would be leaving with No Deal.
If anything MPs representing the 48% are crapping on the 52% with their never ending game playing and delaying tactics.
Also very large protests numerically, largely upper/middle-class well-heeled "comfortable" people on a well-mannered march, but mobilising largely because the political ascendancy had moved against them. They also thought they had right on their side, in that their life-perspective was in fact entirely reasonable, and opposed mainly by those ignorant of the details of their circumstances - people who would surely come around if they were given greater education.
I do think you'd see larger Leave crowds if there were a parliamentary vote to revoke Article 50.
Or are you just trying to rerun the first referendum in that classic EU favoured way of voting again until you get the result you want?