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  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,236
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Boris will just send 2 letters, the second rejecting extension, nominate a Brexiteer Commissioner from the UK and reduce defence cooperation with any nations backing extension.

    He will negotiate again from No Deal, not willingly after further extension
    Commissioners have to be approved by the EU Parliament, so that's not a very effective threat.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,504
    nichomar said:

    isam said:

    nichomar said:

    isam said:

    Would be great to see the posts here if this were American fans behaving like the Bulgarians. Tenuous links a go go

    “... and THIS is what leavers want to be associated with? As if Chlorinated chicken wasn’t bad enough!”

    Not sure what your point is here, care to clarify? I actually think this transcends brexit.
    Happy to.

    If this were American fans being racist, I reckon there are Remain supporters on here who would use it to make a political point linking Leave, Boris etc, to Trump
    The only problem I have with it all is that unfortunately many football grounds in the UK suFfer from the same problem, how you distinguish partisan loyalty to your team from genuine abuse i don't know but the UK is by no means clean on this issue.
    It does happen, but it’s pretty rare in the UK. It’s rampant in Eastern Europe.
  • nichomar said:

    nico67 said:

    There are three possible reasons as to why Johnson is moving so late :

    a) Brinkmanship - particulary to move MP's, rather than Europe, I think. Europe has always wanted a deal, and has always looked willing to slightly bend timetables were supposed to be "set in stone".

    b) Artifice. He wants to move too late for a deal to be agreed, so that if he either concedes the extension, or steps down, the EU may be more realistically blamed in the public mind.

    c) Chaos. He's impulsive and unpredictable, and possibly incompetent, and the structural relationship between him and Cummings doesn't work properly.

    a) - Merkel has expressed fear that the UK would be a serious competitor with the US and China if if was allowed to leave without constraints and is seeking to soften brexit in the EU's favour

    b) - In todays Sky YouGov poll the EU are blamed more and 41% v 33% support a no deal exit

    c) - It has been said earlier that no 10 have already gamed this and have plans to thwart any need to request an extension but no one knows what they are

    Tonights news demonstrates the effect of Benns bill as the EU try to go beyond the 19th October hoping to corner Boris but this is very volatile and this could play into Boris hands quite well as the Country is sick to death of the shenanigans and wants brexit done
    He only started looking bothered about a deal after the Benn Bill came into force . And it’s not the EUs fault if Johnson put his plans in so late . As for no deal , different polls show different things and that poll still shows a majority against no deal or preferring to stay in the EU .
    No it does not. 41% no deal, 33% remain, 14% another solution to be negotiated

    Also in the same poll the voters blame the EU more than the UK

    Your trip away has turned you into HYUFD i fear
    Now that really is silly.

    The YouGov poll was clear at 41/33/14 and it is just wrong to add 14% to the remain total

    I want a deal even though I voted remain and have always supported TM deal and rejected no deal.

    Also HYUFD has become a hard right enthusist and if you follow any of my posts you will see how I utterly reject his attitudes and especially on the obnoxious Trump
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,151
    edited October 2019
    Byronic said:

    La La Land. He is sanctioning a NATO ally for doing what he invited them to do on Wednesday, and he is withdrawing American troops from a country where he says there are no American troops, and he is aiding the resurgence of a terror group that he simultaneously boasts about defeating, and he is sending American troops into the Mid East as he gloats about flying Mid East-based US troops home, and and and

    America the Clown.
    It was Assad and the Kurds who were mainly responsible for defeating ISIS, Trump is now leaving them to control Syria which they are doing as the Kurdish welcome for Syrian government troops in Kurdistan today confirms
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,236

    Salvini: "The euro is irreversible - I say this once and for all, and then I hope that no one inside and outside my party will raise this issue again. The League is not thinking about Italy's exit from the euro or the European Union."

    https://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUKKBN1WT1RA?__twitter_impression=true

    Which is exactly what I'd say if I was planning on dropping out of the Eurozone.
  • DruttDrutt Posts: 1,124
    TGOHF2 said:

    ITV have footage of Bulgarian fans making Nazi salutes.

    Stay classy.

    One had hoped National Socialism had died with the other types of Socialism.
    Remarkable that Bulgarians would be so xenophobic. Don't they know they're foreigners too?

    5-0
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,151

    There is a bizarre faith in pre-campaign polling on PB. @iSam put it best a few days ago: pre-campaign polls had:

    Hillary as Potus
    Remain winning
    Tessa May getting a majority
    Cammo repeating a NOM/Coalition with the Liberals

    Careful, though. It's not a binary situation where pre-campaign polls are either determinative or utter garbage.

    In reality, they are useful but have limitations. In the examples you give, Clinton DID win the popular vote, and May DID win the election (albeit short of a majority). Cameron got his majority, but it was hardly a working majority. Remain lost, but it was quite close. And pre-campaign polls in (for example) 1997, 2001, and 2005 pretty much reflected the final situation.

    So pre-campaign polls are pretty useful but campaigns CAN change things (but often don't and could change things for the better or worse).

    The danger is partly going too far the other way. For example, Corbynistas breezily claiming "well, the polls were bad in 2017, so don't worry about it". Well, the 2019/20 campaign MIGHT be the same again, but it might not. Indeed, it might be a poor campaign for Labour where they slide back and Swinson's LDs emerge increasingly as the dominant anti-Brexit choice, for example, or where Johnson's ebullient style contrasts poorly with Corbyn's more Eeyore-ish demeanour. In other words, Corbyn's awful numbers are a big worry for Labour (albeit perhaps don't jump off the bridge yet) and Johnson's poll leads are nice for the Tories (but not enough to justify some of the smugness we see here from certain posters).
    I guess it’s the certainty and over-analysis that sits badly. What’s the point of putting (for instance) tonight’s Panelbase through Baxter etc? You might as well make five numbers up.
    1. Picking a favourite poll and saying everything else is an outlier.

    2. Taking a change from the last poll of say 2% and reading a lot into it - if all polls are up around 2% for party X, fine, but if it's just one then it's not a trend, it's probably noise.

    3. As you say, Baxterising to death. Because there are clusters of seats with similar majorities, a small change in polling % can have a fairly big impact. But so what? Broadly, if you're a few % behind that's a worry and if you're a few ahead it's nice. But the difference between being 5% ahead and 7% ahead is pretty meaningless many weeks from an election.
    There was a poll earlier where the SNP went up by 1pt. There was an ‘only on PB moment’ when a extreme unionist poster publicly cheered this because their increase was so modest.
    The same poll had the SNP down at Holyrood compared to 2016
  • TGOHF2TGOHF2 Posts: 584

    nichomar said:

    isam said:

    nichomar said:

    isam said:

    Would be great to see the posts here if this were American fans behaving like the Bulgarians. Tenuous links a go go

    “... and THIS is what leavers want to be associated with? As if Chlorinated chicken wasn’t bad enough!”

    Not sure what your point is here, care to clarify? I actually think this transcends brexit.
    Happy to.

    If this were American fans being racist, I reckon there are Remain supporters on here who would use it to make a political point linking Leave, Boris etc, to Trump
    The only problem I have with it all is that unfortunately many football grounds in the UK suFfer from the same problem, how you distinguish partisan loyalty to your team from genuine abuse i don't know but the UK is by no means clean on this issue.
    It does happen, but it’s pretty rare in the UK. It’s rampant in Eastern Europe.
    Not sure there have been scenes like earlier in the Uk for over a decade.

    Sterling showing class by scoring a 5th.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    nichomar said:

    isam said:

    nichomar said:

    isam said:

    Would be great to see the posts here if this were American fans behaving like the Bulgarians. Tenuous links a go go

    “... and THIS is what leavers want to be associated with? As if Chlorinated chicken wasn’t bad enough!”

    Not sure what your point is here, care to clarify? I actually think this transcends brexit.
    Happy to.

    If this were American fans being racist, I reckon there are Remain supporters on here who would use it to make a political point linking Leave, Boris etc, to Trump
    The only problem I have with it all is that unfortunately many football grounds in the UK suFfer from the same problem, how you distinguish partisan loyalty to your team from genuine abuse i don't know but the UK is by no means clean on this issue.
    It does happen, but it’s pretty rare in the UK. It’s rampant in Eastern Europe.
    It's Darwinian selection. The crummier parts of Eastern Europe are now inhabited by the locals who were too dumb or apathetic to migrate to the UK, Spain, Germany and France. Anyone who could speak English got the hell out ages ago,

    Ergo, the lumpen racists are left.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,151
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Boris will just send 2 letters, the second rejecting extension, nominate a Brexiteer Commissioner from the UK and reduce defence cooperation with any nations backing extension.

    He will negotiate again from No Deal, not willingly after further extension
    Commissioners have to be approved by the EU Parliament, so that's not a very effective threat.
    It is given the Commission cannot function properly without full membership and Boris will keep nominating Brexiteers for the Commission
  • Byronic said:

    La La Land. He is sanctioning a NATO ally for doing what he invited them to do on Wednesday, and he is withdrawing American troops from a country where he says there are no American troops, and he is aiding the resurgence of a terror group that he simultaneously boasts about defeating, and he is sending American troops into the Mid East as he gloats about flying Mid East-based US troops home, and and and

    America the Clown.
    I suspect a typical reaction will be:

    " Syria, Iraq, Iran hmmmm
    Arabs, Kurds, Turks hmmmm
    ISIS, Al Qaeda, Hezbollah hmmmm.

    Best to keep out and let them fight each other. "
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268

    nichomar said:

    isam said:

    nichomar said:

    isam said:

    Would be great to see the posts here if this were American fans behaving like the Bulgarians. Tenuous links a go go

    “... and THIS is what leavers want to be associated with? As if Chlorinated chicken wasn’t bad enough!”

    Not sure what your point is here, care to clarify? I actually think this transcends brexit.
    Happy to.

    If this were American fans being racist, I reckon there are Remain supporters on here who would use it to make a political point linking Leave, Boris etc, to Trump
    The only problem I have with it all is that unfortunately many football grounds in the UK suFfer from the same problem, how you distinguish partisan loyalty to your team from genuine abuse i don't know but the UK is by no means clean on this issue.
    It does happen, but it’s pretty rare in the UK. It’s rampant in Eastern Europe.
    Which is crazy given they were only behind the Jews as being the lowest on Hitler's untermenschen scale. They would have been starved into oblivion had he won.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    La La Land. He is sanctioning a NATO ally for doing what he invited them to do on Wednesday, and he is withdrawing American troops from a country where he says there are no American troops, and he is aiding the resurgence of a terror group that he simultaneously boasts about defeating, and he is sending American troops into the Mid East as he gloats about flying Mid East-based US troops home, and and and

    America the Clown.
    It was Assad and the Kurds who were mainly responsible for defeating ISIS, Trump is now leaving them to control Syria which they are doing as the Kurdish welcome for Syrian government troops in Kurdistan today confirms
    HYUFD I have defended you in the past against some unpleasant attacks, but your loyalty to Donald Trump is literally indefensible. And incomprehensible. Stop. The prez is a vile, mad, narcissistic, flame haired human gargoyle.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Why can it not? Does anyone believe, if they are in talks to find solutions, they could not manage it?

    Unconvincing in the extreme.
    r/ChoosingBeggars
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,236
    Byronic said:

    La La Land. He is sanctioning a NATO ally for doing what he invited them to do on Wednesday, and he is withdrawing American troops from a country where he says there are no American troops, and he is aiding the resurgence of a terror group that he simultaneously boasts about defeating, and he is sending American troops into the Mid East as he gloats about flying Mid East-based US troops home, and and and

    America the Clown.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/10/trump-kurds-world-order-betrayal.html

    It’s worth emphasizing, over and over, that the Turkish invasion wasn’t an unforeseen side effect of Trump’s withdrawal; it was an explicit part of the decision. The official statement that the White House released on Oct. 6 made this clear:

    “Turkey will soon be moving forward with its long-planned operation into Northern Syria. The United States Armed Forces will not support or be involved in the operation, and United States forces, having defeated the ISIS territorial “Caliphate,” will no longer be in the immediate area.”


    It’s also worth emphasising that total US casualties in the fight against IS were eight.
    For the Kurds, perhaps 11,000.

    That is how Trump treats US allies.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Byronic said:

    La La Land. He is sanctioning a NATO ally for doing what he invited them to do on Wednesday, and he is withdrawing American troops from a country where he says there are no American troops, and he is aiding the resurgence of a terror group that he simultaneously boasts about defeating, and he is sending American troops into the Mid East as he gloats about flying Mid East-based US troops home, and and and

    America the Clown.
    I suspect a typical reaction will be:

    " Syria, Iraq, Iran hmmmm
    Arabs, Kurds, Turks hmmmm
    ISIS, Al Qaeda, Hezbollah hmmmm.

    Best to keep out and let them fight each other. "
    I disagree. I think these multiple reports, about US soldiers experiencing shame at the abandonment of their Kurdish allies, will hit home.

    Americans do not like feeling unmanly, weak or yellow. It conflicts entirely with their self image.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,504
    Byronic said:

    nichomar said:

    isam said:

    nichomar said:

    isam said:

    Would be great to see the posts here if this were American fans behaving like the Bulgarians. Tenuous links a go go

    “... and THIS is what leavers want to be associated with? As if Chlorinated chicken wasn’t bad enough!”

    Not sure what your point is here, care to clarify? I actually think this transcends brexit.
    Happy to.

    If this were American fans being racist, I reckon there are Remain supporters on here who would use it to make a political point linking Leave, Boris etc, to Trump
    The only problem I have with it all is that unfortunately many football grounds in the UK suFfer from the same problem, how you distinguish partisan loyalty to your team from genuine abuse i don't know but the UK is by no means clean on this issue.
    It does happen, but it’s pretty rare in the UK. It’s rampant in Eastern Europe.
    It's Darwinian selection. The crummier parts of Eastern Europe are now inhabited by the locals who were too dumb or apathetic to migrate to the UK, Spain, Germany and France. Anyone who could speak English got the hell out ages ago,

    Ergo, the lumpen racists are left.
    I would have kept Ster on, looked likely to take the piss out of the morons with a hat-trick
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,151
    edited October 2019
    Byronic said:

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    La La Land. He is sanctioning a NATO ally for doing what he invited them to do on Wednesday, and he is withdrawing American troops from a country where he says there are no American troops, and he is aiding the resurgence of a terror group that he simultaneously boasts about defeating, and he is sending American troops into the Mid East as he gloats about flying Mid East-based US troops home, and and and

    America the Clown.
    It was Assad and the Kurds who were mainly responsible for defeating ISIS, Trump is now leaving them to control Syria which they are doing as the Kurdish welcome for Syrian government troops in Kurdistan today confirms
    HYUFD I have defended you in the past against some unpleasant attacks, but your loyalty to Donald Trump is literally indefensible. And incomprehensible. Stop. The prez is a vile, mad, narcissistic, flame haired human gargoyle.
    Appreciate the defence but let me ask you this question, who did more to help ISIS, Obama and even more so Hillary Clinton when they were funding the FSA and supporting rebels against the Assad regime, many of them Jihadists, Turkish backed and out of whom ISIS emerged or Trump, now leaving Syria to Assad and the Kurds?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,504
    HYUFD said:

    There is a bizarre faith in pre-campaign polling on PB. @iSam put it best a few days ago: pre-campaign polls had:

    Hillary as Potus
    Remain winning
    Tessa May getting a majority
    Cammo repeating a NOM/Coalition with the Liberals

    Careful, though. It's not a binary situation where pre-campaign polls are either determinative or utter garbage.

    In reality, they are useful but have limitations. In the examples you give, Clinton DID win the popular vote, and May DID win the election (albeit short of a majority). Cameron got his majority, but it was hardly a working majority. Remain lost, but it was quite close. And pre-campaign polls in (for example) 1997, 2001, and 2005 pretty much reflected the final situation.

    So pre-campaign polls are pretty useful but campaigns CAN change things (but often don't and could change things for the better or worse).

    The danger is partly going too far the other way. For example, Corbynistas breezily claiming "well, the polls were bad in 2017, so don't worry about it". Well, the 2019/20 campaign MIGHT be the same again, but it might not. Indeed, it might be a poor campaign for Labour where they slide back and Swinson's LDs emerge increasingly as the dominant anti-Brexit choice, for example, or where Johnson's ebullient style contrasts poorly with Corbyn's more Eeyore-ish demeanour. In other words, Corbyn's awful numbers are a big worry for Labour (albeit perhaps don't jump off the bridge yet) and Johnson's poll leads are nice for the Tories (but not enough to justify some of the smugness we see here from certain posters).
    I guess it’s the certainty and over-analysis that sits badly. What’s the point of putting (for instance) tonight’s Panelbase through Baxter etc? You might as well make five numbers up.
    Snipn.
    There was a poll earlier where the SNP went up by 1pt. There was an ‘only on PB moment’ when a extreme unionist poster publicly cheered this because their increase was so modest.
    The same poll had the SNP down at Holyrood compared to 2016
    Jesus wept
  • TGOHF2TGOHF2 Posts: 584
    Sturgeon getting a good grilling here - doesn’t do well..

    https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/1183725776136523776?s=21
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    nichomar said:

    No it does not. 41% no deal, 33% remain, 14% another solution to be negotiated

    Also in the same poll the voters blame the EU more than the UK

    Your trip away has turned you into HYUFD i fear
    HYUFD-lite? :)
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,842
    TGOHF2 said:

    Sturgeon getting a good grilling here - doesn’t do well..

    https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/1183725776136523776?s=21

    It is never her fault. Always someone else.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Byronic said:

    nichomar said:

    isam said:

    nichomar said:

    isam said:

    Would be great to see the posts here if this were American fans behaving like the Bulgarians. Tenuous links a go go

    “... and THIS is what leavers want to be associated with? As if Chlorinated chicken wasn’t bad enough!”

    Not sure what your point is here, care to clarify? I actually think this transcends brexit.
    Happy to.

    If this were American fans being racist, I reckon there are Remain supporters on here who would use it to make a political point linking Leave, Boris etc, to Trump
    The only problem I have with it all is that unfortunately many football grounds in the UK suFfer from the same problem, how you distinguish partisan loyalty to your team from genuine abuse i don't know but the UK is by no means clean on this issue.
    It does happen, but it’s pretty rare in the UK. It’s rampant in Eastern Europe.
    It's Darwinian selection. The crummier parts of Eastern Europe are now inhabited by the locals who were too dumb or apathetic to migrate to the UK, Spain, Germany and France. Anyone who could speak English got the hell out ages ago,

    Ergo, the lumpen racists are left.
    I would have kept Ster on, looked likely to take the piss out of the morons with a hat-trick
    England have a dazzling attack, and endless talent. They remind me of Spain in about 2005

    They might win a World Cup soon.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    TGOHF2 said:

    Sturgeon getting a good grilling here - doesn’t do well..

    https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/1183725776136523776?s=21

    It is never her fault. Always someone else.
    A politician?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    TGOHF2 said:

    Sturgeon getting a good grilling here - doesn’t do well..

    twitter.com/itvnews/status/1183725776136523776?s=21

    It is never her fault. Always someone else.
    I'm guessing Westminster? :p
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    nichomar said:

    isam said:

    nichomar said:

    isam said:

    Would be great to see the posts here if this were American fans behaving like the Bulgarians. Tenuous links a go go

    “... and THIS is what leavers want to be associated with? As if Chlorinated chicken wasn’t bad enough!”

    Not sure what your point is here, care to clarify? I actually think this transcends brexit.
    Happy to.

    If this were American fans being racist, I reckon there are Remain supporters on here who would use it to make a political point linking Leave, Boris etc, to Trump
    The only problem I have with it all is that unfortunately many football grounds in the UK suFfer from the same problem, how you distinguish partisan loyalty to your team from genuine abuse i don't know but the UK is by no means clean on this issue.
    It does happen, but it’s pretty rare in the UK. It’s rampant in Eastern Europe.
    It's Darwinian selection. The crummier parts of Eastern Europe are now inhabited by the locals who were too dumb or apathetic to migrate to the UK, Spain, Germany and France. Anyone who could speak English got the hell out ages ago,

    Ergo, the lumpen racists are left.
    I would have kept Ster on, looked likely to take the piss out of the morons with a hat-trick
    England have a dazzling attack, and endless talent. They remind me of Spain in about 2005

    They might win a World Cup soon.
    No.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    nichomar said:

    No it does not. 41% no deal, 33% remain, 14% another solution to be negotiated

    Also in the same poll the voters blame the EU more than the UK

    Your trip away has turned you into HYUFD i fear
    HYUFD-lite? :)
    One day we shall see the accounts: The one true HYUFD, Original HYUFD, HYUFD Classic, Super HYUFD...
  • nichomar said:

    No it does not. 41% no deal, 33% remain, 14% another solution to be negotiated

    Also in the same poll the voters blame the EU more than the UK

    Your trip away has turned you into HYUFD i fear
    HYUFD-lite? :)
    Not even lite.

    I am million miles away from HYUFD though we both voted remain. I am a one nation conservative that wants a deal and some common sense and reject Trump with every part of my being
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,504
    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    nichomar said:

    isam said:

    nichomar said:

    isam said:

    Would be great to see the posts here if this were American fans behaving like the Bulgarians. Tenuous links a go go

    “... and THIS is what leavers want to be associated with? As if Chlorinated chicken wasn’t bad enough!”

    Not sure what your point is here, care to clarify? I actually think this transcends brexit.
    Happy to.

    If this were American fans being racist, I reckon there are Remain supporters on here who would use it to make a political point linking Leave, Boris etc, to Trump
    The only problem I have with it all is that unfortunately many football grounds in the UK suFfer from the same problem, how you distinguish partisan loyalty to your team from genuine abuse i don't know but the UK is by no means clean on this issue.
    It does happen, but it’s pretty rare in the UK. It’s rampant in Eastern Europe.
    It's Darwinian selection. The crummier parts of Eastern Europe are now inhabited by the locals who were too dumb or apathetic to migrate to the UK, Spain, Germany and France. Anyone who could speak English got the hell out ages ago,

    Ergo, the lumpen racists are left.
    I would have kept Ster on, looked likely to take the piss out of the morons with a hat-trick
    England have a dazzling attack, and endless talent. They remind me of Spain in about 2005

    They might win a World Cup soon.
    Our diabolical performance on Friday was inexplicable. It was like stepping back into the Capello era, just for 90 minutes.

    Despite a crumbling stadium, an ugly atmosphere and the sickening bawling of Neo Nazis, normal service has been resumed this evening.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131

    There are three possible reasons as to why Johnson is moving so late :

    a) Brinkmanship - particulary to move MP's, rather than Europe, I think. Europe has always wanted a deal, and has always looked willing to slightly bend timetables were supposed to be "set in stone".

    b) Artifice. He wants to move too late for a deal to be agreed, so that if he either concedes the extension, or steps down, the EU may be more realistically blamed in the public mind.

    c) Chaos. He's impulsive and unpredictable, and possibly incompetent, and the structural relationship between him and Cummings doesn't work properly.

    d) Malevolence. He is a bad man who deliberately engineered No Deal so he could fulfil the Bannonite vision of reducing the UK to an alt-right colony and distract the population from their immiseration by waging a culture war.

    We find it difficult to comprehend that politicians may have malevolent or careless motives, but it is possible to interpret Johnson's, Corbyn's and Swindon's actions in a very malevolent light. Sometimes bad people are actually bad, not misunderstood.

  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    La La Land. He is sanctioning a NATO ally for doing what he invited them to do on Wednesday, and he is withdrawing American troops from a country where he says there are no American troops, and he is aiding the resurgence of a terror group that he simultaneously boasts about defeating, and he is sending American troops into the Mid East as he gloats about flying Mid East-based US troops home, and and and

    America the Clown.
    It was Assad and the Kurds who were mainly responsible for defeating ISIS, Trump is now leaving them to control Syria which they are doing as the Kurdish welcome for Syrian government troops in Kurdistan today confirms
    HYUFD I have defended you in the past against some unpleasant attacks, but your loyalty to Donald Trump is literally indefensible. And incomprehensible. Stop. The prez is a vile, mad, narcissistic, flame haired human gargoyle.
    Appreciate the defence but let me ask you this question, who did more to help ISIS, Obama and even more so Hillary Clinton when they were funding the FSA and supporting rebels against the Assad regime, many of them Jihadists, Turkish backed and out of whom ISIS emerged or Trump, now leaving Syria to Assad and the Kurds?

    It's irrelevant. It's whataboutery. We're talking of Trump.

    His decision on Turkey was stupid, witless, short sighted, random, and strategically inept. It weakens America in several ways, not least by making America look fatally unreliable as an ally, and by reviving America's mortal enemies in the Mid East.

    And that's setting aside the basic morality of abandoning the Kurds. Because there is no basic morality. It was a contemptible thing to do.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    RobD said:

    eek said:

    GIN1138 said:

    stodge said:

    As we've often seen, voters rush back to the big two at the first sniff of electoral gunpowder.

    Hardly a majority winning lead for Johnson on that evidence and we haven't even had the campaign.
    The 12% for BXP is key for Con. :D
    And that 12% are the leave voters who will never vote Tory.

    Good luck trying to win their votes.
    Who doesn't love digging into subsamples. A large fraction of them voted Tory in 2017.

    https://www.drg.global/wp-content/uploads/Sunday-Times-Tables-for-publication-111019.pdf
    Nice to see someone fessing up. Far too many around here slag off sub-samples, then get caught basing theories upon them.
  • Byronic said:

    nichomar said:

    isam said:

    nichomar said:

    isam said:

    Would be great to see the posts here if this were American fans behaving like the Bulgarians. Tenuous links a go go

    “... and THIS is what leavers want to be associated with? As if Chlorinated chicken wasn’t bad enough!”

    Not sure what your point is here, care to clarify? I actually think this transcends brexit.
    Happy to.

    If this were American fans being racist, I reckon there are Remain supporters on here who would use it to make a political point linking Leave, Boris etc, to Trump
    The only problem I have with it all is that unfortunately many football grounds in the UK suFfer from the same problem, how you distinguish partisan loyalty to your team from genuine abuse i don't know but the UK is by no means clean on this issue.
    It does happen, but it’s pretty rare in the UK. It’s rampant in Eastern Europe.
    It's Darwinian selection. The crummier parts of Eastern Europe are now inhabited by the locals who were too dumb or apathetic to migrate to the UK, Spain, Germany and France. Anyone who could speak English got the hell out ages ago,

    Ergo, the lumpen racists are left.
    Not sure I agree. I went to football games in the 1980s in England and, sorry to say, monkey chants were commonplace. They were minority pursuits, sure, and attracted majority tutting. But they weren't stamped on or seen as utterly beyond the pale by friends if those involved.

    Those people never went away - some are now deceased for sure, but most are just older. They probably aren't massively nicer bloke now, but know they can't get away with it. The culture moved on - clubs clamped down, and you'd get more than tutting now.

    I suspect it's nothing to do with migration. Some of the football cultures in Eastern European countries are simply a few decades behind the curve, and it needs concerted action by FAs to get the cultural shift moving.
  • 6-0.

    Up yours, racists.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    nichomar said:

    No it does not. 41% no deal, 33% remain, 14% another solution to be negotiated

    Also in the same poll the voters blame the EU more than the UK

    Your trip away has turned you into HYUFD i fear
    HYUFD-lite? :)
    Not even lite.

    I am million miles away from HYUFD though we both voted remain. I am a one nation conservative that wants a deal and some common sense and reject Trump with every part of my being
    I’m sure you’re not but the current belief in opinion polls and your switch to supporting Johnson if he gets a deal does make me a bit suspicious
  • Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    La La Land. He is sanctioning a NATO ally for doing what he invited them to do on Wednesday, and he is withdrawing American troops from a country where he says there are no American troops, and he is aiding the resurgence of a terror group that he simultaneously boasts about defeating, and he is sending American troops into the Mid East as he gloats about flying Mid East-based US troops home, and and and

    America the Clown.
    I suspect a typical reaction will be:

    " Syria, Iraq, Iran hmmmm
    Arabs, Kurds, Turks hmmmm
    ISIS, Al Qaeda, Hezbollah hmmmm.

    Best to keep out and let them fight each other. "
    I disagree. I think these multiple reports, about US soldiers experiencing shame at the abandonment of their Kurdish allies, will hit home.

    Americans do not like feeling unmanly, weak or yellow. It conflicts entirely with their self image.
    Maybe.

    But it depends on how weary the US is of Middle Eastern entanglements especially now it isn't dependent upon Middle Eastern oil.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    lol

    God Save The Queen resounding around an otherwise silent stadium
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038
    Off topic, my flight home from Schiphol is currently delayed 1h50m.

    By way of compensation, we have each been issued with 500 ml of water and a chunky Kitkat.

    As an aside, a woman with a Vegan sticker on her laptop tucked in to her Kitkat. She also has an XR sicker, and is of course waiting to board a flight.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    6-0.

    Up yours, racists.

    Worth noting that this result is very much in Bulgaria's interest. They'd probably make it into the playoffs anyway, but it's to their advantage that England and Czech Republic qualify directly rather than Kosovo.

    I was going to suggest lumping on England earlier today, but I was slightly concerned that Bulgaria might not be aware of this and there was always the possibility that the game would be abandoned (not sure the betting implications if that had happened).
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,215

    There is a bizarre faith in pre-campaign polling on PB. @iSam put it best a few days ago: pre-campaign polls had:

    Hillary as Potus
    Remain winning
    Tessa May getting a majority
    Cammo repeating a NOM/Coalition with the Liberals

    v) Trump losing in 2020. Now I do think he'll lose buuuuuuuuuuuuut...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,151
    edited October 2019
    Byronic said:

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    La La Land. He is sanctioning a NATO ally for doing what he invited them to do on Wednesday, and he is withdrawing American troops from a country where he says there are no American troops, and he is aiding the resurgence of a terror group that he simultaneously boasts about defeating, and he is sending American troops into the Mid East as he gloats about flying Mid East-based US troops home, and and and

    America the Clown.
    It was Assad and the Kurds who were mainly responsible for defeating ISIS, Trump is now leaving them to control Syria which they are doing as the Kurdish welcome for Syrian government troops in Kurdistan today confirms
    HYUFD I have defended you in the past against some unpleasant attacks, but your loyalty to Donald Trump is literally indefensible. And incomprehensible. Stop. The prez is a vile, mad, narcissistic, flame haired human gargoyle.
    Appreciate the defence but let me ask you this question, who did more to help ISIS, Obama and even more so Hillary Clinton when they were funding the FSA and supporting rebels against the Assad regime, many of them Jihadists, Turkish backed and out of whom ISIS emerged or Trump, now leaving Syria to Assad and the Kurds?

    It's irrelevant. It's whataboutery. We're talking of Trump.

    His decision on Turkey was stupid, witless, short sighted, random, and strategically inept. It weakens America in several ways, not least by making America look fatally unreliable as an ally, and by reviving America's mortal enemies in the Mid East.

    And that's setting aside the basic morality of abandoning the Kurds. Because there is no basic morality. It was a contemptible thing to do.
    The problems in Syria came from the US backing rebels trying to topple Assad given ISIS emerged from those rebels, now ISIS has been defeated Trump saw no US direct interest in keeping US troops in Syria any further and risking US lives.

    He decided the best course was to leave Syria to Assad and the arrival of Syrian troops in Kurdish towns in Northern Syria today to protect the Kurds and replace the US troops withdrawn shows his gamble was the correct one
  • nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    No it does not. 41% no deal, 33% remain, 14% another solution to be negotiated

    Also in the same poll the voters blame the EU more than the UK

    Your trip away has turned you into HYUFD i fear
    HYUFD-lite? :)
    Not even lite.

    I am million miles away from HYUFD though we both voted remain. I am a one nation conservative that wants a deal and some common sense and reject Trump with every part of my being
    I’m sure you’re not but the current belief in opinion polls and your switch to supporting Johnson if he gets a deal does make me a bit suspicious
    Why would I not support Boris if he gets a deal and we leave in an orderly manner.

    The QS today had a lot of good policies on health, police, the environment, animal protection much favoured by my family and above all optimism. It was not a right wing mantra though some law and order policies are populist
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    He certainly seems like he is having fun. And it was a stupid letter to boot. "SF choose not to sit in the Commons, which I agree with, therefore we should take away the right of parties to make a choice about sitting if we don't like their stance".
  • TGOHF2 said:

    ITV have footage of Bulgarian fans making Nazi salutes.

    Stay classy.

    One had hoped National Socialism had died with the other types of Socialism.
    Odd WW2 trivia: Bulgaria enthusiastically took part in the 1941 Nazi invasions of Greece and Yugoslavia (as was), but refused to fight the Soviets until they were literally at the Bulgarian border in September 1944. The Bulgarians sided with the Soviets soon afterwards, though they were in effect under occupation.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    viewcode said:

    There are three possible reasons as to why Johnson is moving so late :

    a) Brinkmanship - particulary to move MP's, rather than Europe, I think. Europe has always wanted a deal, and has always looked willing to slightly bend timetables were supposed to be "set in stone".

    b) Artifice. He wants to move too late for a deal to be agreed, so that if he either concedes the extension, or steps down, the EU may be more realistically blamed in the public mind.

    c) Chaos. He's impulsive and unpredictable, and possibly incompetent, and the structural relationship between him and Cummings doesn't work properly.

    d) Malevolence. He is a bad man who deliberately engineered No Deal so he could fulfil the Bannonite vision of reducing the UK to an alt-right colony and distract the population from their immiseration by waging a culture war.

    We find it difficult to comprehend that politicians may have malevolent or careless motives, but it is possible to interpret Johnson's, Corbyn's and Swinson’s actions in a very malevolent light. Sometimes bad people are actually bad, not misunderstood.
    +1
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    The more I think of it the more Boris being told he cannot have a deal now really is perfect for his opponents. Farage can stir people up that we have not left and Boris will, he will claim, sell out the UK in order to get a deal later, while everyone else can work toward a referendum (I wish they'd get on with it already) and the EU can let things draft to a close, safe in the knowledge that deal or no deal it won't matter.
  • Off topic, my flight home from Schiphol is currently delayed 1h50m.

    By way of compensation, we have each been issued with 500 ml of water and a chunky Kitkat.

    As an aside, a woman with a Vegan sticker on her laptop tucked in to her Kitkat. She also has an XR sicker, and is of course waiting to board a flight.

    Hope you get back some time tonight!
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    tlg86 said:

    6-0.

    Up yours, racists.

    Worth noting that this result is very much in Bulgaria's interest. They'd probably make it into the playoffs anyway, but it's to their advantage that England and Czech Republic qualify directly rather than Kosovo.

    I was going to suggest lumping on England earlier today, but I was slightly concerned that Bulgaria might not be aware of this and there was always the possibility that the game would be abandoned (not sure the betting implications if that had happened).
    No side wants to lose 6-0. It is psychologically damaging

    Cf: I'm not sure the Irish rugby team have recovered from their record-breaking summertime drubbing at Twickenham. Certainly, the Irish press keep referring to it: as a recurring nightmare.
  • kle4 said:

    The more I think of it the more Boris being told he cannot have a deal now really is perfect for his opponents. Farage can stir people up that we have not left and Boris will, he will claim, sell out the UK in order to get a deal later, while everyone else can work toward a referendum (I wish they'd get on with it already) and the EU can let things draft to a close, safe in the knowledge that deal or no deal it won't matter.

    That seems a bit optimistic but who knows
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    RobD said:

    eek said:

    GIN1138 said:

    stodge said:

    As we've often seen, voters rush back to the big two at the first sniff of electoral gunpowder.

    Hardly a majority winning lead for Johnson on that evidence and we haven't even had the campaign.
    The 12% for BXP is key for Con. :D
    And that 12% are the leave voters who will never vote Tory.

    Good luck trying to win their votes.
    Who doesn't love digging into subsamples. A large fraction of them voted Tory in 2017.

    https://www.drg.global/wp-content/uploads/Sunday-Times-Tables-for-publication-111019.pdf
    Nice to see someone fessing up. Far too many around here slag off sub-samples, then get caught basing theories upon them.
    Sub-samples are fine as long as you don't cherry-pick the ones that look good for you and ignore the others. They're even noisier than the headline figures so you have to treat them with even more care.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    kle4 said:

    He certainly seems like he is having fun. And it was a stupid letter to boot. "SF choose not to sit in the Commons, which I agree with, therefore we should take away the right of parties to make a choice about sitting if we don't like their stance".
    A deeply unpleasant letter, representative of a deeply unpleasant period in history. The Enlightenment was a long time ago. A lot of people seem to yearn after the medieval.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    Gabs2 said:

    nichomar said:

    isam said:

    nichomar said:

    isam said:

    Would be great to see the posts here if this were American fans behaving like the Bulgarians. Tenuous links a go go

    “... and THIS is what leavers want to be associated with? As if Chlorinated chicken wasn’t bad enough!”

    Not sure what your point is here, care to clarify? I actually think this transcends brexit.
    Happy to.

    If this were American fans being racist, I reckon there are Remain supporters on here who would use it to make a political point linking Leave, Boris etc, to Trump
    The only problem I have with it all is that unfortunately many football grounds in the UK suFfer from the same problem, how you distinguish partisan loyalty to your team from genuine abuse i don't know but the UK is by no means clean on this issue.
    It does happen, but it’s pretty rare in the UK. It’s rampant in Eastern Europe.
    Which is crazy given they were only behind the Jews as being the lowest on Hitler's untermenschen scale. They would have been starved into oblivion had he won.
    When politics changes and a new side come to power and start doing bad things to people, some people join in because they want those people to be hurt and come to identify with the new side. People are not very nice... :)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,696

    Off topic, my flight home from Schiphol is currently delayed 1h50m.

    By way of compensation, we have each been issued with 500 ml of water and a chunky Kitkat.

    As an aside, a woman with a Vegan sticker on her laptop tucked in to her Kitkat. She also has an XR sicker, and is of course waiting to board a flight.

    Excuse my ignorance but what does an XR sticker signify?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,616

    Off topic, my flight home from Schiphol is currently delayed 1h50m.

    By way of compensation, we have each been issued with 500 ml of water and a chunky Kitkat.

    As an aside, a woman with a Vegan sticker on her laptop tucked in to her Kitkat. She also has an XR sicker, and is of course waiting to board a flight.

    Excuse my ignorance but what does an XR sticker signify?
    Extinction Rebellion hypocrite.....
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,696

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    No it does not. 41% no deal, 33% remain, 14% another solution to be negotiated

    Also in the same poll the voters blame the EU more than the UK

    Your trip away has turned you into HYUFD i fear
    HYUFD-lite? :)
    Not even lite.

    I am million miles away from HYUFD though we both voted remain. I am a one nation conservative that wants a deal and some common sense and reject Trump with every part of my being
    I’m sure you’re not but the current belief in opinion polls and your switch to supporting Johnson if he gets a deal does make me a bit suspicious
    Why would I not support Boris if he gets a deal and we leave in an orderly manner.

    The QS today had a lot of good policies on health, police, the environment, animal protection much favoured by my family and above all optimism. It was not a right wing mantra though some law and order policies are populist
    You have changed your tune somewhat significantly Big_G!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,696

    Off topic, my flight home from Schiphol is currently delayed 1h50m.

    By way of compensation, we have each been issued with 500 ml of water and a chunky Kitkat.

    As an aside, a woman with a Vegan sticker on her laptop tucked in to her Kitkat. She also has an XR sicker, and is of course waiting to board a flight.

    Excuse my ignorance but what does an XR sticker signify?
    Extinction Rebellion hypocrite.....
    Ah thanks, I see.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    La La Land. He is sanctioning a NATO ally for doing what he invited them to do on Wednesday, and he is withdrawing American troops from a country where he says there are no American troops, and he is aiding the resurgence of a terror group that he simultaneously boasts about defeating, and he is sending American troops into the Mid East as he gloats about flying Mid East-based US troops home, and and and

    America the Clown.
    It was Assad and the Kurds who were mainly responsible for defeating ISIS, Trump is now leaving them to control Syria which they are doing as the Kurdish welcome for Syrian government troops in Kurdistan today confirms
    HYUFD I have defended you in the past against some unpleasant attacks, but your loyalty to Donald Trump is literally indefensible. And incomprehensible. Stop. The prez is a vile, mad, narcissistic, flame haired human gargoyle.
    Appreciate the defence but let me ask you this question, who did more to help ISIS, Obama and even more so Hillary Clinton when they were funding the FSA and supporting rebels against the Assad regime, many of them Jihadists, Turkish backed and out of whom ISIS emerged or Trump, now leaving Syria to Assad and the Kurds?

    It's irrelevant. It's whataboutery. We're talking of Trump.

    His decision on Turkey was stupid, witless, short sighted, random, and strategically inept. It weakens America in several ways, not least by making America look fatally unreliable as an ally, and by reviving America's mortal enemies in the Mid East.

    And that's setting aside the basic morality of abandoning the Kurds. Because there is no basic morality. It was a contemptible thing to do.
    The problems in Syria came from the US backing rebels trying to topple Assad given ISIS emerged from those rebels, now ISIS has been defeated Trump saw no US direct interest in keeping US troops in Syria any further and risking US lives.

    He decided the best course was to leave Syria to Assad and the arrival of Syrian troops in Kurdish towns in Northern Syria today to protect the Kurds and replace the US troops withdrawn shows his gamble was the correct one
    In the US statement after the phone call with Erdogan they directly referred to the start of Turkey's attack on the Kurds. It is risible to claim that the plan was for Syrian government troops to replace US troops.

    Utterly ridiculous and absurd.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    RobD said:

    eek said:

    GIN1138 said:

    stodge said:

    As we've often seen, voters rush back to the big two at the first sniff of electoral gunpowder.

    Hardly a majority winning lead for Johnson on that evidence and we haven't even had the campaign.
    The 12% for BXP is key for Con. :D
    And that 12% are the leave voters who will never vote Tory.

    Good luck trying to win their votes.
    Who doesn't love digging into subsamples. A large fraction of them voted Tory in 2017.

    https://www.drg.global/wp-content/uploads/Sunday-Times-Tables-for-publication-111019.pdf
    Nice to see someone fessing up. Far too many around here slag off sub-samples, then get caught basing theories upon them.
    Sub-samples are fine as long as you don't cherry-pick the ones that look good for you and ignore the others. They're even noisier than the headline figures so you have to treat them with even more care.
    I concur. Of course.

    But what annoys the f out of me is idgits who claim they have zero worth; and the hypocrites who get caught using them on the sly after making high falutin objections.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    No it does not. 41% no deal, 33% remain, 14% another solution to be negotiated

    Also in the same poll the voters blame the EU more than the UK

    Your trip away has turned you into HYUFD i fear
    HYUFD-lite? :)
    Not even lite.

    I am million miles away from HYUFD though we both voted remain. I am a one nation conservative that wants a deal and some common sense and reject Trump with every part of my being
    I’m sure you’re not but the current belief in opinion polls and your switch to supporting Johnson if he gets a deal does make me a bit suspicious
    Why would I not support Boris if he gets a deal and we leave in an orderly manner.

    The QS today had a lot of good policies on health, police, the environment, animal protection much favoured by my family and above all optimism. It was not a right wing mantra though some law and order policies are populist
    You struggled between the evils of huntband Johnson but eventually, despite all his failings, voted for Johnson because apparently Hunt supported fox hunting. The original lying duplicitous Johnson hasn’t changed and his so-called queens speech will never be enacted. But bed time you’re one of the nicer and polite posters on here unlike some so have no desire to fall out so sleep well!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,151
    edited October 2019

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    La La Land. He is sanctioning a NATO ally for doing what he invited them to do on Wednesday, and he is withdrawing American troops from a country where he says there are no American troops, and he is aiding the resurgence of a terror group that he simultaneously boasts about defeating, and he is sending American troops into the Mid East as he gloats about flying Mid East-based US troops home, and and and

    America the Clown.
    It was Assad and the Kurds who were mainly responsible for defeating ISIS, Trump is now leaving them to control Syria which they are doing as the Kurdish welcome for Syrian government troops in Kurdistan today confirms
    HYUFD I have defended you in the past against some unpleasant attacks, but your loyalty to Donald Trump is literally indefensible. And incomprehensible. Stop. The prez is a vile, mad, narcissistic, flame haired human gargoyle.
    Appreciate the defence but let me ask you this question, who the Kurds?

    It's irrelevant. It's whataboutery. We're talking of Trump.

    His decision on Turkey was stupid, witless, short sighted, random, and strategically inept. It weakens America in several ways, not least by making America look fatally unreliable as an ally, and by reviving America's mortal enemies in the Mid East.

    And that's setting aside the basic morality of abandoning the Kurds. Because there is no basic morality. It was a contemptible thing to do.
    The problems in Syria came from the US backing rebels trying to topple Assad given ISIS emerged from those rebels, now ISIS has been defeated Trump saw no US direct interest in keeping US troops in Syria any further and risking US lives.

    He decided the best course was to leave Syria to Assad and the arrival of Syrian troops in Kurdish towns in Northern Syria today to protect the Kurds and replace the US troops withdrawn shows his gamble was the correct one
    In the US statement after the phone call with Erdogan they directly referred to the start of Turkey's attack on the Kurds. It is risible to claim that the plan was for Syrian government troops to replace US troops.

    Utterly ridiculous and absurd.
    Yet the fact Syrian government troops have now replaced US troops to protect the Kurds shows in reality it was not absurd
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Byronic said:

    tlg86 said:

    6-0.

    Up yours, racists.

    Worth noting that this result is very much in Bulgaria's interest. They'd probably make it into the playoffs anyway, but it's to their advantage that England and Czech Republic qualify directly rather than Kosovo.

    I was going to suggest lumping on England earlier today, but I was slightly concerned that Bulgaria might not be aware of this and there was always the possibility that the game would be abandoned (not sure the betting implications if that had happened).
    No side wants to lose 6-0. It is psychologically damaging

    Cf: I'm not sure the Irish rugby team have recovered from their record-breaking summertime drubbing at Twickenham. Certainly, the Irish press keep referring to it: as a recurring nightmare.
    True. It's a bit sad really. My earliest memory of international football was USA 94, and Bulgaria's victory against the Germans in the quarter final was fantastic. They've produced some excellent players over the years, but I don't recognize any of the names in their current squad.
  • Sky saying the Irish really do want a deal this week and the leaders may agree but subject to a short technical extension

    Both John Rentoul and John Stevens in the interview see it as the most likely outcome and that Boris may even agree to seek an extension for that purpose and that it is unlikely to damage him
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    kle4 said:

    The more I think of it the more Boris being told he cannot have a deal now really is perfect for his opponents. Farage can stir people up that we have not left and Boris will, he will claim, sell out the UK in order to get a deal later, while everyone else can work toward a referendum (I wish they'd get on with it already) and the EU can let things draft to a close, safe in the knowledge that deal or no deal it won't matter.

    I don't think that's the EU intention. They want a deal and don't see it as their job to protect the UK from its Brexit decision. The difference is that the EU sees a deal in functional terms - it needs to work - while Johnson-Cummings sees a deal as a political act - how does it advance or damage their partisan interest?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    La La Land. He is sanctioning a NATO ally for doing what he invited them to do on Wednesday, and he is withdrawing American troops from a country where he says there are no American troops, and he is aiding the resurgence of a terror group that he simultaneously boasts about defeating, and he is sending American troops into the Mid East as he gloats about flying Mid East-based US troops home, and and and

    America the Clown.
    It was Assad and the Kurds who were mainly responsible for defeating ISIS, Trump is now leaving them to control Syria which they are doing as the Kurdish welcome for Syrian government troops in Kurdistan today confirms
    HYUFD I have defended you in the past against some unpleasant attacks, but your loyalty to Donald Trump is literally indefensible. And incomprehensible. Stop. The prez is a vile, mad, narcissistic, flame haired human gargoyle.
    Appreciate the defence but let me ask you this question, who did more to help ISIS, Obama and even more so Hillary Clinton when they were funding the FSA and supporting rebels against the Assad regime, many of them Jihadists, Turkish backed and out of whom ISIS emerged or Trump, now leaving Syria to Assad and the Kurds?

    It's irrelevant. It's whataboutery. We're talking of Trump.

    His decision on Turkey was stupid, witless, short sighted, random, and strategically inept. It weakens America in several ways, not least by making America look fatally unreliable as an ally, and by reviving America's mortal enemies in the Mid East.

    And that's setting aside the basic morality of abandoning the Kurds. Because there is no basic morality. It was a contemptible thing to do.
    The problems in Syria came from the US backing rebels trying to topple Assad given ISIS emerged from those rebels, now ISIS has been defeated Trump saw no US direct interest in keeping US troops in Syria any further and risking US lives.

    He decided the best course was to leave Syria to Assad and the arrival of Syrian troops in Kurdish towns in Northern Syria today to protect the Kurds and replace the US troops withdrawn shows his gamble was the correct one
    In the US statement after the phone call with Erdogan they directly referred to the start of Turkey's attack on the Kurds. It is risible to claim that the plan was for Syrian government troops to replace US troops.

    Utterly ridiculous and absurd.
    Risible, ridiculous and absurd. Yepp, that’s the Tories for you.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    No it does not. 41% no deal, 33% remain, 14% another solution to be negotiated

    Also in the same poll the voters blame the EU more than the UK

    Your trip away has turned you into HYUFD i fear
    HYUFD-lite? :)
    Not even lite.

    I am million miles away from HYUFD though we both voted remain. I am a one nation conservative that wants a deal and some common sense and reject Trump with every part of my being
    I’m sure you’re not but the current belief in opinion polls and your switch to supporting Johnson if he gets a deal does make me a bit suspicious
    Why would I not support Boris if he gets a deal and we leave in an orderly manner.

    The QS today had a lot of good policies on health, police, the environment, animal protection much favoured by my family and above all optimism. It was not a right wing mantra though some law and order policies are populist
    You have changed your tune somewhat significantly Big_G!
    I thought I was the only one to notice
  • TGOHF2TGOHF2 Posts: 584

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    No it does not. 41% no deal, 33% remain, 14% another solution to be negotiated

    Also in the same poll the voters blame the EU more than the UK

    Your trip away has turned you into HYUFD i fear
    HYUFD-lite? :)
    Not even lite.

    I am million miles away from HYUFD though we both voted remain. I am a one nation conservative that wants a deal and some common sense and reject Trump with every part of my being
    I’m sure you’re not but the current belief in opinion polls and your switch to supporting Johnson if he gets a deal does make me a bit suspicious
    Why would I not support Boris if he gets a deal and we leave in an orderly manner.

    The QS today had a lot of good policies on health, police, the environment, animal protection much favoured by my family and above all optimism. It was not a right wing mantra though some law and order policies are populist
    You have changed your tune somewhat significantly Big_G!
    Big G is old school- will judge Boris on what he does as PM - not what other posters tell you he stands for.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,504
    tlg86 said:

    6-0.

    Up yours, racists.

    Worth noting that this result is very much in Bulgaria's interest. They'd probably make it into the playoffs anyway, but it's to their advantage that England and Czech Republic qualify directly rather than Kosovo.

    I was going to suggest lumping on England earlier today, but I was slightly concerned that Bulgaria might not be aware of this and there was always the possibility that the game would be abandoned (not sure the betting implications if that had happened).
    That post is interesting but probably needs further explanation - it’s related to the Nations League back door I assume?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038

    Off topic, my flight home from Schiphol is currently delayed 1h50m.

    By way of compensation, we have each been issued with 500 ml of water and a chunky Kitkat.

    As an aside, a woman with a Vegan sticker on her laptop tucked in to her Kitkat. She also has an XR sicker, and is of course waiting to board a flight.

    Hope you get back some time tonight!
    Thanks! They've now given us a gate change, just to make sure we are all still awake. Still no sign of anything to fly in though.
  • nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    No it does not. 41% no deal, 33% remain, 14% another solution to be negotiated

    Also in the same poll the voters blame the EU more than the UK

    Your trip away has turned you into HYUFD i fear
    HYUFD-lite? :)
    Not even lite.

    I am million miles away from HYUFD though we both voted remain. I am a one nation conservative that wants a deal and some common sense and reject Trump with every part of my being
    I’m sure you’re not but the current belief in opinion polls and your switch to supporting Johnson if he gets a deal does make me a bit suspicious
    Why would I not support Boris if he gets a deal and we leave in an orderly manner.

    The QS today had a lot of good policies on health, police, the environment, animal protection much favoured by my family and above all optimism. It was not a right wing mantra though some law and order policies are populist
    You struggled between the evils of huntband Johnson but eventually, despite all his failings, voted for Johnson because apparently Hunt supported fox hunting. The original lying duplicitous Johnson hasn’t changed and his so-called queens speech will never be enacted. But bed time you’re one of the nicer and polite posters on here unlike some so have no desire to fall out so sleep well!
    Thank you and just a correction in so far as I did not vote for Boris
    .
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405

    Off topic, my flight home from Schiphol is currently delayed 1h50m.

    By way of compensation, we have each been issued with 500 ml of water and a chunky Kitkat.

    As an aside, a woman with a Vegan sticker on her laptop tucked in to her Kitkat. She also has an XR sicker, and is of course waiting to board a flight.

    You don't have lounge access? The new KLM lounges are lovely but the switch from Champagne to Cava is an annoyance.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,504
    tlg86 said:

    Byronic said:

    tlg86 said:

    6-0.

    Up yours, racists.

    Worth noting that this result is very much in Bulgaria's interest. They'd probably make it into the playoffs anyway, but it's to their advantage that England and Czech Republic qualify directly rather than Kosovo.

    I was going to suggest lumping on England earlier today, but I was slightly concerned that Bulgaria might not be aware of this and there was always the possibility that the game would be abandoned (not sure the betting implications if that had happened).
    No side wants to lose 6-0. It is psychologically damaging

    Cf: I'm not sure the Irish rugby team have recovered from their record-breaking summertime drubbing at Twickenham. Certainly, the Irish press keep referring to it: as a recurring nightmare.
    True. It's a bit sad really. My earliest memory of international football was USA 94, and Bulgaria's victory against the Germans in the quarter final was fantastic. They've produced some excellent players over the years, but I don't recognize any of the names in their current squad.
    They were a truly exceptional side in 94.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    edited October 2019
    Byronic said:

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    La La Land. He is sanctioning a NATO ally for doing what he invited them to do on Wednesday, and he is withdrawing American troops from a country where he says there are no American troops, and he is aiding the resurgence of a terror group that he simultaneously boasts about defeating, and he is sending American troops into the Mid East as he gloats about flying Mid East-based US troops home, and and and

    America the Clown.
    It was Assad and the Kurds who were mainly responsible for defeating ISIS, Trump is now leaving them to control Syria which they are doing as the Kurdish welcome for Syrian government troops in Kurdistan today confirms
    HYUFD I have defended you in the past against some unpleasant attacks, but your loyalty to Donald Trump is literally indefensible. And incomprehensible. Stop. The prez is a vile, mad, narcissistic, flame haired human gargoyle.
    I protest at this offensive characterisation.

    Gargoyles are original, useful, striking and only spout water from their mouths.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    edited October 2019
    FF43 said:

    kle4 said:

    The more I think of it the more Boris being told he cannot have a deal now really is perfect for his opponents. Farage can stir people up that we have not left and Boris will, he will claim, sell out the UK in order to get a deal later, while everyone else can work toward a referendum (I wish they'd get on with it already) and the EU can let things draft to a close, safe in the knowledge that deal or no deal it won't matter.

    I don't think that's the EU intention. They want a deal and don't see it as their job to protect the UK from its Brexit decision. The difference is that the EU sees a deal in functional terms - it needs to work - while Johnson-Cummings sees a deal as a political act - how does it advance or damage their partisan interest?
    I find that a bit difficult to believe, because the EU do not see a deal in purely functional terms, since the deal needs to work politically in order to work functionally. It's one reason many of the wilder British options wouldn't work because even if technically feasible, maybe, they are not politically feasible.

    The desperation here is on the British side, because of the extension caused by Brexiteers in the first place (no, many of them did not vote for an extension, but there would be no opportunity for it without them), and because of the deadline the Brexiteers have chosen to make immutable despite not having the power to prevent going beyond it. But the path to a revised version of a deal is not really a functional issue, it's a political issue.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    tlg86 said:

    Byronic said:

    tlg86 said:

    6-0.

    Up yours, racists.

    Worth noting that this result is very much in Bulgaria's interest. They'd probably make it into the playoffs anyway, but it's to their advantage that England and Czech Republic qualify directly rather than Kosovo.

    I was going to suggest lumping on England earlier today, but I was slightly concerned that Bulgaria might not be aware of this and there was always the possibility that the game would be abandoned (not sure the betting implications if that had happened).
    No side wants to lose 6-0. It is psychologically damaging

    Cf: I'm not sure the Irish rugby team have recovered from their record-breaking summertime drubbing at Twickenham. Certainly, the Irish press keep referring to it: as a recurring nightmare.
    True. It's a bit sad really. My earliest memory of international football was USA 94, and Bulgaria's victory against the Germans in the quarter final was fantastic. They've produced some excellent players over the years, but I don't recognize any of the names in their current squad.
    Re the racism, to be fair to the Bulgarian fans, it looks like it was about 5 or 10 fans acting the wanker, and the rest of the crowd seems embarrassed or even angered by this behaviour.

  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited October 2019
    (delete formatting nightmare; when are you going to fix this unusable commenting system?)
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Off topic, my flight home from Schiphol is currently delayed 1h50m.

    By way of compensation, we have each been issued with 500 ml of water and a chunky Kitkat.

    As an aside, a woman with a Vegan sticker on her laptop tucked in to her Kitkat. She also has an XR sicker, and is of course waiting to board a flight.

    Excuse my ignorance but what does an XR sticker signify?
    Extinction Rebellion hypocrite.....
    So they made the "E" extinct in XR .... Alphabet fascists !!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    No it does not. 41% no deal, 33% remain, 14% another solution to be negotiated

    Also in the same poll the voters blame the EU more than the UK

    Your trip away has turned you into HYUFD i fear
    HYUFD-lite? :)
    Not even lite.

    I am million miles away from HYUFD though we both voted remain. I am a one nation conservative that wants a deal and some common sense and reject Trump with every part of my being
    I’m sure you’re not but the current belief in opinion polls and your switch to supporting Johnson if he gets a deal does make me a bit suspicious
    Why would I not support Boris if he gets a deal and we leave in an orderly manner.

    The QS today had a lot of good policies on health, police, the environment, animal protection much favoured by my family and above all optimism. It was not a right wing mantra though some law and order policies are populist
    You struggled between the evils of huntband Johnson but eventually, despite all his failings, voted for Johnson because apparently Hunt supported fox hunting. The original lying duplicitous Johnson hasn’t changed and his so-called queens speech will never be enacted. But bed time you’re one of the nicer and polite posters on here unlike some so have no desire to fall out so sleep well!
    Thank you and just a correction in so far as I did not vote for Boris
    .
    You did not vote for either, IIRC?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    Novaramedia:

    "even floating the possibility of losing a General Election risks demoralising the membership who will need to be energised if Labour is going to win"

    Beyond parody.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    tlg86 said:

    6-0.

    Up yours, racists.

    Worth noting that this result is very much in Bulgaria's interest. They'd probably make it into the playoffs anyway, but it's to their advantage that England and Czech Republic qualify directly rather than Kosovo.

    I was going to suggest lumping on England earlier today, but I was slightly concerned that Bulgaria might not be aware of this and there was always the possibility that the game would be abandoned (not sure the betting implications if that had happened).
    That post is interesting but probably needs further explanation - it’s related to the Nations League back door I assume?
    Yeah:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2020_qualifying#Play-offs_2

    It would take a lot for Bulgaria to miss out - Kosovo, Hungary and Romania qualifying directly and Finland NOT qualifying directly - but I think Kosovo will need to get something against England as well as winning in Prague as I can't see Bulgaria getting anything against the Czechs.
  • nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    No it does not. 41% no deal, 33% remain, 14% another solution to be negotiated

    Also in the same poll the voters blame the EU more than the UK

    Your trip away has turned you into HYUFD i fear
    HYUFD-lite? :)
    Not even lite.

    I am million miles away from HYUFD though we both voted remain. I am a one nation conservative that wants a deal and some common sense and reject Trump with every part of my being
    I’m sure you’re not but the current belief in opinion polls and your switch to supporting Johnson if he gets a deal does make me a bit suspicious
    Why would I not support Boris if he gets a deal and we leave in an orderly manner.

    The QS today had a lot of good policies on health, police, the environment, animal protection much favoured by my family and above all optimism. It was not a right wing mantra though some law and order policies are populist
    You have changed your tune somewhat significantly Big_G!
    Not really.

    If Boris achieves TM mark 2 and goes on to a sensible programme for government v Corbyn and his ilk I would vote conservative at the next GE despite me not backing Boris for PM

    I am only being honest to be fair and I have not rejoined the party following my resignation
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,696
    TGOHF2 said:

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    No it does not. 41% no deal, 33% remain, 14% another solution to be negotiated

    Also in the same poll the voters blame the EU more than the UK

    Your trip away has turned you into HYUFD i fear
    HYUFD-lite? :)
    Not even lite.

    I am million miles away from HYUFD though we both voted remain. I am a one nation conservative that wants a deal and some common sense and reject Trump with every part of my being
    I’m sure you’re not but the current belief in opinion polls and your switch to supporting Johnson if he gets a deal does make me a bit suspicious
    Why would I not support Boris if he gets a deal and we leave in an orderly manner.

    The QS today had a lot of good policies on health, police, the environment, animal protection much favoured by my family and above all optimism. It was not a right wing mantra though some law and order policies are populist
    You have changed your tune somewhat significantly Big_G!
    Big G is old school- will judge Boris on what he does as PM - not what other posters tell you he stands for.
    Lol!

    Judging Boris on what he does as a PM leads to only one conclusion... he's an inept lying loser.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038
    eek said:

    Off topic, my flight home from Schiphol is currently delayed 1h50m.

    By way of compensation, we have each been issued with 500 ml of water and a chunky Kitkat.

    As an aside, a woman with a Vegan sticker on her laptop tucked in to her Kitkat. She also has an XR sicker, and is of course waiting to board a flight.

    You don't have lounge access? The new KLM lounges are lovely but the switch from Champagne to Cava is an annoyance.
    I used to have a Skyteam Gold Card a few years ago (3 trips to South Africa did the trick), but that is now all in the past. I'm out here with normals at the gate.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    edited October 2019

    Sky saying the Irish really do want a deal this week and the leaders may agree but subject to a short technical extension

    Both John Rentoul and John Stevens in the interview see it as the most likely outcome and that Boris may even agree to seek an extension for that purpose and that it is unlikely to damage him

    As long as a deal is agreed and Parliament votes for it there's no reason not to have a technical extension to 31st December or January 31st to put legislation in place.

    The key though is that the deal must be passed by Westminster on Saturday so everyone knows we're coming out and that's that.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    TGOHF2 said:
    Good to see politicians praising rival parties.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    Novaramedia:

    "even floating the possibility of losing a General Election risks demoralising the membership who will need to be energised if Labour is going to win"

    Beyond parody.

    Also demonstrably untrue about the negative effects of a membership told they cannot win - loads told them that last time, and while they did not win, the membership was still certainly energised.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,696

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    No it does not. 41% no deal, 33% remain, 14% another solution to be negotiated

    Also in the same poll the voters blame the EU more than the UK

    Your trip away has turned you into HYUFD i fear
    HYUFD-lite? :)
    Not even lite.

    I am million miles away from HYUFD though we both voted remain. I am a one nation conservative that wants a deal and some common sense and reject Trump with every part of my being
    I’m sure you’re not but the current belief in opinion polls and your switch to supporting Johnson if he gets a deal does make me a bit suspicious
    Why would I not support Boris if he gets a deal and we leave in an orderly manner.

    The QS today had a lot of good policies on health, police, the environment, animal protection much favoured by my family and above all optimism. It was not a right wing mantra though some law and order policies are populist
    You have changed your tune somewhat significantly Big_G!
    Not really.

    If Boris achieves TM mark 2 and goes on to a sensible programme for government v Corbyn and his ilk I would vote conservative at the next GE despite me not backing Boris for PM

    I am only being honest to be fair and I have not rejoined the party following my resignation
    Fair enough, your honesty does you credit (even if your views are misguided imho :wink:)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    OllyT said:

    IanB2 said:

    Took the dog to an American vet this morning to get his treatment and pet passport endorsed for our return crossing to the UK on Friday. And hoping he won't be deprived of his EU citizenship in a fortnight's time. Meanwhile lunch at an Italian restaurant streetside in New York sunshine makes Brexit seem a long way away. As it probably is.

    Our dog travels all over Europe with us on a pet passport. Hadn't thought of travelling to US with a pet - out of interest did you fly or sail? Did it go well?
    We went on the QM2; better for me than him, but better for him than flying. We return on Friday.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    Anyhoo, before I switch the tablet off and read a book like God intended, one simple question: will a deal be announced in EUCO on Thursday, yes or no?
  • kle4 said:

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    No it does not. 41% no deal, 33% remain, 14% another solution to be negotiated

    Also in the same poll the voters blame the EU more than the UK

    Your trip away has turned you into HYUFD i fear
    HYUFD-lite? :)
    Not even lite.

    I am million miles away from HYUFD though we both voted remain. I am a one nation conservative that wants a deal and some common sense and reject Trump with every part of my being
    I’m sure you’re not but the current belief in opinion polls and your switch to supporting Johnson if he gets a deal does make me a bit suspicious
    Why would I not support Boris if he gets a deal and we leave in an orderly manner.

    The QS today had a lot of good policies on health, police, the environment, animal protection much favoured by my family and above all optimism. It was not a right wing mantra though some law and order policies are populist
    You struggled between the evils of huntband Johnson but eventually, despite all his failings, voted for Johnson because apparently Hunt supported fox hunting. The original lying duplicitous Johnson hasn’t changed and his so-called queens speech will never be enacted. But bed time you’re one of the nicer and polite posters on here unlike some so have no desire to fall out so sleep well!
    Thank you and just a correction in so far as I did not vote for Boris
    .
    You did not vote for either, IIRC?
    Yes that is correct
  • ydoethur said:

    Byronic said:

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    La La Land. He is sanctioning a NATO ally for doing what he invited them to do on Wednesday, and he is withdrawing American troops from a country where he says there are no American troops, and he is aiding the resurgence of a terror group that he simultaneously boasts about defeating, and he is sending American troops into the Mid East as he gloats about flying Mid East-based US troops home, and and and

    America the Clown.
    It was Assad and the Kurds who were mainly responsible for defeating ISIS, Trump is now leaving them to control Syria which they are doing as the Kurdish welcome for Syrian government troops in Kurdistan today confirms
    HYUFD I have defended you in the past against some unpleasant attacks, but your loyalty to Donald Trump is literally indefensible. And incomprehensible. Stop. The prez is a vile, mad, narcissistic, flame haired human gargoyle.
    I protest at this offensive characterisation.

    Gargoyles are original, useful, striking and only spout water from their mouths.
    A little stony-faced from you ydoethur :)
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117
    Boris Johnson...fucking tosspot..discuss.

    What is the worst thing about Boris's day today????.from the UK not wanting to criticise Turkey, to manipulating the queen for today's charade, to popping in such incendiary voter suppression measures, to the shocking populist home office (unworkable) proposals, to wrapping himself around the NHS..something he obviously doesn't give a flying fuck about....

    What did we do to deserve Boris Johnson?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    ydoethur said:

    Byronic said:

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    La La Land. He is sanctioning a NATO ally for doing what he invited them to do on Wednesday, and he is withdrawing American troops from a country where he says there are no American troops, and he is aiding the resurgence of a terror group that he simultaneously boasts about defeating, and he is sending American troops into the Mid East as he gloats about flying Mid East-based US troops home, and and and

    America the Clown.
    It was Assad and the Kurds who were mainly responsible for defeating ISIS, Trump is now leaving them to control Syria which they are doing as the Kurdish welcome for Syrian government troops in Kurdistan today confirms
    HYUFD I have defended you in the past against some unpleasant attacks, but your loyalty to Donald Trump is literally indefensible. And incomprehensible. Stop. The prez is a vile, mad, narcissistic, flame haired human gargoyle.
    I protest at this offensive characterisation.

    Gargoyles are original, useful, striking and only spout water from their mouths.
    A little stony-faced from you ydoethur :)
    I demand the right of defenceless roof ornaments not to be slated.
This discussion has been closed.