Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.
Yeah, that seems not to be noticed by the headbangers but it seems pretty unarguable on the turn of events.
And wasn’t it only a few days ago that Cummings was briefing that if the EU didn’t like Boris’s original proposals he would just walk away, that would be it, no negotiations blah, blah? That seems to have been more piss and wind.
Anyway, all this cautious rejoicing is a bit premature, no? There isn’t a deal yet. Fingers crossed.
What comes out will be the original EU proposal of a NI only Backstop IMO.
Which the DUP will again veto leaving Boris reliant on Labour votes again to get it through.
So still a Tory majority is probably needed to get the Deal through the Commons
Speaking of which what are the bets Becky vs Coleen - which is the leaver and which is the remainer?
I would put Coleen as the remainer and Vardy as the leaver.
Quite possibly. Merseyside was pretty solidly Remain.
Quite apart from the #Wagathachristie element, the fight is an interesting insight into British class structure. The original generation of 2006 Wags regard Rebekah Vardy as a lower class upstart wannabee. That is the root of what has transpired.
Even lower class than the others ?
Exactly!
One of the delights of the intricacies of the British class system is the awareness of status levels immediately adjacent.
The difference in status between a Baronet and an Earl, between a barrister and a QC, between a brickie and a sparky are acute to those involved but obscure to more distant social groups.
Leavers compromised by voting for her rather than UKIP
Farage compromised by not standing in 2017, and not being Ukip leader.
And then they screamed blue murder when she did something that was, er, a compromise. If leavers are going to compromise then they should compromise. Farage didn't stand and then blasted and continues to blast her compromise deal.
Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.
Yeah, that seems not to be noticed by the headbangers but it seems pretty unarguable on the turn of events.
And wasn’t it only a few days ago that Cummings was briefing that if the EU didn’t like Boris’s original proposals he would just walk away, that would be it, no negotiations blah, blah? That seems to have been more piss and wind.
Anyway, all this cautious rejoicing is a bit premature, no? There isn’t a deal yet. Fingers crossed.
I like the idea of cautious rejoicing. That's probably the most British thing that I've heard of since the referendum result.
"Cautious rejoicing would be premature" even more so.
Leavers compromised by voting for her rather than UKIP
Farage compromised by not standing in 2017, and not being Ukip leader.
And then they screamed blue murder when she did something that was, er, a compromise. If leavers are going to compromise then they should compromise. Farage didn't stand and then blasted and continues to blast her compromise deal.
Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.
Yeah, that seems not to be noticed by the headbangers but it seems pretty unarguable on the turn of events.
Not quite true.
Ps the stomach for, or is gullible enough to swallow it.
I vo Ltart to put this country back together.
What were your reasons for voting Leave?
P
Would you have any flavour of Leave vs staying in?
No. In a word.
Leaving without due consideration to those that voted for remain (who overwhelmingly had good intentions themselves (apart from a vocal few)) is not sustainable democratically or economically or the point of why I voted to leave in the first place. Cutting ourselves off at the drop of a hat is stupid and not in any way reflective of how the UK has always gone about things.
We are where we are predominately due to our negotiations being hampered from the get-go by the seminal election in 2017. Our negotiating position, and the space for compromise in the HOC was destroyed.
I don't blame the EU for taking advantage of a politically-hobbled TM - every party must negotiate in their best interests. But we did lose any advantage we may have had early on.
Would I Remain in the face of No Deal? In ordinary circumstances, yes. But that comes with the codicil that remaining isn't a passport to business as usual. If we remain a member the EU must change, either just for us or as a whole. Preferably as a whole - for its own sake more than anything else. And the UK population must be brought along with this idea in a non-partisan settlement of our membership.
Would I actually Remain in our current circumstances? I'm more scared of Corbyn, Milne and McDonnell than I am of anything the EU can throw at us.I'm in a paradox. Remaining, indeed increasing our membership to including the EUR and whatnot paralyses their regressive agenda. On the other hand rowing back to remaining now destroys the opposition to Corbyn making him much more likely to gain power. A Corbyn manacled by the EU is still a dangerous thing. The UK can survive a theoretical federalisation into the EU, It won't survive unchecked Marxism.
Basically I've evolved from a Leaver to a stop Corbyn at any cost person. So I have to support Boris. I have no choice.
Speaking of which what are the bets Becky vs Coleen - which is the leaver and which is the remainer?
I would put Coleen as the remainer and Vardy as the leaver.
Quite possibly. Merseyside was pretty solidly Remain.
Quite apart from the #Wagathachristie element, the fight is an interesting insight into British class structure. The original generation of 2006 Wags regard Rebekah Vardy as a lower class upstart wannabee. That is the root of what has transpired.
Even lower class than the others ?
Exactly!
One of the delights of the intricacies of the British class system is the awareness of status levels immediately adjacent.
The difference in status between a Baronet and an Earl, between a barrister and a QC, between a brickie and a sparky are acute to those involved but obscure to more distant social groups.
Anyone who has even dealt with an electrician will be well aware of the acute distinctions between them and other trades.
Speaking of which what are the bets Becky vs Coleen - which is the leaver and which is the remainer?
I would put Coleen as the remainer and Vardy as the leaver.
Quite possibly. Merseyside was pretty solidly Remain.
Quite apart from the #Wagathachristie element, the fight is an interesting insight into British class structure. The original generation of 2006 Wags regard Rebekah Vardy as a lower class upstart wannabee. That is the root of what has transpired.
Even lower class than the others ?
Exactly!
One of the delights of the intricacies of the British class system is the awareness of status levels immediately adjacent.
The difference in status between a Baronet and an Earl, between a barrister and a QC, between a brickie and a sparky are acute to those involved but obscure to more distant social groups.
I was once with a friend who, in a "heated" (ie friendly) discussion, said "I outrank you" to the person he was arguing with.
Foxy said; "Yes, I agree. If we are to move on from stigmatising mental health issues, then such terms should be as obsolete as calling someone a girly swot or piccaninny."
Please don`t restrict your language - girly swot is straight out of Moleworth. We need to fight against restricting free speech. I dislike piccaninny, but wouldn`t ban it.
Mr. Roger, I didn't vote for the Leave campaign. I voted to leave the EU.
The idea that Hitler being a vegetarian* makes it evil is not one that stands up to intellectual scrutiny.
*The term 'vegetarian' has altered a bit over time. Back then, eating kidney was still ok. A few decades ago, some ate fish. It tends to mean no animal stuff at all now.
Leavers compromised by voting for her rather than UKIP
Farage compromised by not standing in 2017, and not being Ukip leader.
And then they screamed blue murder when she did something that was, er, a compromise. If leavers are going to compromise then they should compromise. Farage didn't stand and then blasted and continues to blast her compromise deal.
Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.
Yeah, that seems not to be noticed by the headbangers but it seems pretty unarguable on the turn of events.
Not quite true.
If they get a any type of Brexit they should be grateful and push for a fuller fat version if they think the electorate has the stomach for, or is gullible enough to swallow it.
I
All leavers aren’t nutcases. And all remainers aren’t conspiring traitors. When we finally realise this and accept it then we might start to put this country back together.
What were your reasons for voting Leave?
Purely democratic.
I can’t reconcile being a member of the EU to maintaining adequate and traditionally British checks on democratic accountability. This is especially difficult for me considering how the EU wants to develop. “Ever closer Union” without recourse frightens me in a historical context.
Our politics are uniquely different to those on the continent, resulting from both our history and our culture. I’m not saying they’re better. Just different - and incompatible in many ways in how the State and politicians behave are are accountable.
I don’t care about EU immigration. I have German family and am partly German myself.
The fact that some voted leave because they are Mr Meeks favourite stereotype is immaterial for me. We all vote for our own reasons.
I’m sure some people voted to remain as they want to see the UK dissolved into a EU superstate. Doesn’t mean all remainers think that - or that this mindset in any way undermines the reasons why others voted remain.
Fair enough. It will always be a puzzle though how anyone could line up behind the Leave campaign and not be put off by the overt racism and xenophbia of their fellow passengers and their leaders..
Well people vote Labour with its current leadership, so its not a unique thing....
F1: mildly amused that the race weather forecast appears to be drizzle.
Last message, although a couple of days ago from the family member very heavily involved with the communications side, and is on site, was that he was very worried. Mind, he does that.
Speaking of which what are the bets Becky vs Coleen - which is the leaver and which is the remainer?
I would put Coleen as the remainer and Vardy as the leaver.
Quite possibly. Merseyside was pretty solidly Remain.
Quite apart from the #Wagathachristie element, the fight is an interesting insight into British class structure. The original generation of 2006 Wags regard Rebekah Vardy as a lower class upstart wannabee. That is the root of what has transpired.
Even lower class than the others ?
Exactly!
One of the delights of the intricacies of the British class system is the awareness of status levels immediately adjacent.
The difference in status between a Baronet and an Earl, between a barrister and a QC, between a brickie and a sparky are acute to those involved but obscure to more distant social groups.
I was once with a friend who, in a "heated" (ie friendly) discussion, said "I outrank you" to the person he was arguing with.
The silence from Downing Street, normally so noisy, is the main focus of my attention just now. It doesn’t have a line to take yet because it doesn’t know who it is taking on yet. The vacuum has been filled by the Irish perspective on the discussions.
When Boris Johnson or Dominic Cummings eventually break cover, we will know much more.
At what stage in the next week do people think that the DUP and ERG will be told what any proposed deal involves? And what about the rest of us?
When a Final Deal comes out the Tunnel of Love.....
You think they'll just be presented with a fait accompli?
Leavers compromised by voting for her rather than UKIP
Farage compromised by not standing in 2017, and not being Ukip leader.
And then they screamed blue murder when she did something that was, er, a compromise. If leavers are going to compromise then they should compromise. Farage didn't stand and then blasted and continues to blast her compromise deal.
Who screamed blue murder?
You!
Eh? How? I said back the deal
We are where we are (in a mess) because of the vagaries of the British democratic system. Sadly, we can't pick and choose which bits we like and which bits we think are counter-productive (to our own wished for outcome). Hence the compromise, which the voters delivered in 2016 and 2017, has resulted in this impasse. No one likes it, and hence I think you are screaming blue murder at it, but it is all the result of of our democratic process.
Leavers compromised by voting for her rather than UKIP
Farage compromised by not standing in 2017, and not being Ukip leader.
And then they screamed blue murder when she did something that was, er, a compromise. If leavers are going to compromise then they should compromise. Farage didn't stand and then blasted and continues to blast her compromise deal.
Mr Topping, I think you are wasting your "breath". Extremists don't compromise. Brexit is an extremist's enterprise. Not all who back it are extremists, but many if not most are. Their idea of compromise is not dotting the odd "i" on the internment papers of the people they disagree with.
Speaking of which what are the bets Becky vs Coleen - which is the leaver and which is the remainer?
I would put Coleen as the remainer and Vardy as the leaver.
Quite possibly. Merseyside was pretty solidly Remain.
Quite apart from the #Wagathachristie element, the fight is an interesting insight into British class structure. The original generation of 2006 Wags regard Rebekah Vardy as a lower class upstart wannabee. That is the root of what has transpired.
Even lower class than the others ?
Exactly!
One of the delights of the intricacies of the British class system is the awareness of status levels immediately adjacent.
The difference in status between a Baronet and an Earl, between a barrister and a QC, between a brickie and a sparky are acute to those involved but obscure to more distant social groups.
I was once with a friend who, in a "heated" (ie friendly) discussion, said "I outrank you" to the person he was arguing with.
In the military sense?
Was sat with a group of ex service people arguing about cross service seniority so decided to tell them my wife outranked them all as she as an honorary Major from her time as a pharmacist at a hospital used and partially staffed by the military. It stopped their discussion dead.
Why the hell would the EU want a "confirmatory referendum"? If there's a deal, nail the bloody thing down in Westminster. The last thing the EU wants is a wholly unneccessary bit of extra democracy thrown into the mix. What if the orney voters nix the deal? Where are they then?
Nah, if the Irish are happy with it, that should do the EU too. No futher extensions and put the MPs' feet to the fire. Make them do what they pledged to their voters they'd do - deliver Brexit.
So you are against democracy
Referendums are for “in principle” decisions
Details legislation is for Parliament
Treaties are for the executive subject to parliamentary oversight
So speaks the constitutional expert. My understanding was that constitutional experts are uncertain of the constitutional status of referenda as we do not have it as a mainstream part of our unwritten constitution. Still it is good that you are one of the few leavers I have heard recognise that the referendum was purely advisory, which of course it was, and badly drafted at that.
Legally advisory but from a moral (and political) perspective wrong to ignore
Parliament is subservient to the voters not their master
Lovely theory, but not how our constitution works. Consider the analogy of being the trustee of a trust in favour of a five year old child. You are entirely subservient to his interests, but that doesn't mean that you should ask him for his opinion as to the prospects for long-dated gilts, or, if he expresses an opinion, pay any attention to it. That is not your job and not in his interests. Our democracy quite rightly treats the people as you should be treating your five year old, except that the people get a limited chance to replace the trustees from time to time.
Foxy said; "Yes, I agree. If we are to move on from stigmatising mental health issues, then such terms should be as obsolete as calling someone a girly swot or piccaninny."
Please don`t restrict your language - girly swot is straight out of Moleworth. We need to fight against restricting free speech. I dislike piccaninny, but wouldn`t ban it.
I wouldn't ban it either, because it indicates that the person who has felt the need to exercise his right to use it may be shown up for the unpleasant bigot that he is. Oh yes, we are talking about Bozo again!
The silence from Downing Street, normally so noisy, is the main focus of my attention just now. It doesn’t have a line to take yet because it doesn’t know who it is taking on yet. The vacuum has been filled by the Irish perspective on the discussions.
When Boris Johnson or Dominic Cummings eventually break cover, we will know much more.
At what stage in the next week do people think that the DUP and ERG will be told what any proposed deal involves? And what about the rest of us?
When a Final Deal comes out the Tunnel of Love.....
You think they'll just be presented with a fait accompli?
They'll be told "This is the only Deal achievable. No Deal has been prevented by law. It's this - or revoke. It will be up to you to explain to your constituents why you allowed revoke...."
Speaking of which what are the bets Becky vs Coleen - which is the leaver and which is the remainer?
I would put Coleen as the remainer and Vardy as the leaver.
Quite possibly. Merseyside was pretty solidly Remain.
Quite apart from the #Wagathachristie element, the fight is an interesting insight into British class structure. The original generation of 2006 Wags regard Rebekah Vardy as a lower class upstart wannabee. That is the root of what has transpired.
Even lower class than the others ?
Exactly!
One of the delights of the intricacies of the British class system is the awareness of status levels immediately adjacent.
The difference in status between a Baronet and an Earl, between a barrister and a QC, between a brickie and a sparky are acute to those involved but obscure to more distant social groups.
I was once with a friend who, in a "heated" (ie friendly) discussion, said "I outrank you" to the person he was arguing with.
Leavers compromised by voting for her rather than UKIP
Farage compromised by not standing in 2017, and not being Ukip leader.
And then they screamed blue murder when she did something that was, er, a compromise. If leavers are going to compromise then they should compromise. Farage didn't stand and then blasted and continues to blast her compromise deal.
Who screamed blue murder?
You!
Eh? How? I said back the deal
We are where we are (in a mess) because of the vagaries of the British democratic system. Sadly, we can't pick and choose which bits we like and which bits we think are counter-productive (to our own wished for outcome). Hence the compromise, which the voters delivered in 2016 and 2017, has resulted in this impasse. No one likes it, and hence I think you are screaming blue murder at it, but it is all the result of of our democratic process.
No, you said
“ they screamed blue murder when she did something that was, er, a compromise”
I asked who screamed blue murder, you said
“You!”
In the context of screaming blue murder at May’s compromise, how can someone who backed it be included? That is just wrong. It’s ok to backtrack and say so
Foxy said; "Yes, I agree. If we are to move on from stigmatising mental health issues, then such terms should be as obsolete as calling someone a girly swot or piccaninny."
Please don`t restrict your language - girly swot is straight out of Moleworth. We need to fight against restricting free speech. I dislike piccaninny, but wouldn`t ban it.
I presume you agree there have to be some limits to free-speech. If so, it's down to a question of where you draw the line.
The patience people have with no-dealers is about up. There's always going to be a treaty as that's how you have to have relationships with other countries.
'No treaties' is like saying 'No trade'. We live in a world of rules.
The silence from Downing Street, normally so noisy, is the main focus of my attention just now. It doesn’t have a line to take yet because it doesn’t know who it is taking on yet. The vacuum has been filled by the Irish perspective on the discussions.
When Boris Johnson or Dominic Cummings eventually break cover, we will know much more.
At what stage in the next week do people think that the DUP and ERG will be told what any proposed deal involves? And what about the rest of us?
When a Final Deal comes out the Tunnel of Love.....
You think they'll just be presented with a fait accompli?
They'll be told "This is the only Deal achievable. No Deal has been prevented by law. It's this - or revoke. It will be up to you to explain to your constituents why you allowed revoke...."
Or they vote against and are welcomed with open arms into the BXP - who then stand in the next election "defending" 20+ seats.
Brexit on the verge of being solved, his mate Trump soon to be an international pariah and enabler of genocide... Nige must see himself sinking into deserved obscurity.
Speaking of which what are the bets Becky vs Coleen - which is the leaver and which is the remainer?
I would put Coleen as the remainer and Vardy as the leaver.
Quite possibly. Merseyside was pretty solidly Remain.
Quite apart from the #Wagathachristie element, the fight is an interesting insight into British class structure. The original generation of 2006 Wags regard Rebekah Vardy as a lower class upstart wannabee. That is the root of what has transpired.
Even lower class than the others ?
Exactly!
One of the delights of the intricacies of the British class system is the awareness of status levels immediately adjacent.
The difference in status between a Baronet and an Earl, between a barrister and a QC, between a brickie and a sparky are acute to those involved but obscure to more distant social groups.
I was once with a friend who, in a "heated" (ie friendly) discussion, said "I outrank you" to the person he was arguing with.
In the military sense?
Was sat with a group of ex service people arguing about cross service seniority so decided to tell them my wife outranked them all as she as an honorary Major from her time as a pharmacist at a hospital used and partially staffed by the military. It stopped their discussion dead.
There are some shitty examples of military wives assuming the ranks of their husbands to talk down to women whose husbands are of a lower military rank.
Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.
Yeah, that seems not to be noticed by the headbangers but it seems pretty unarguable on the turn of events.
Very few people will get credit they may deserve should a desl be agreed and approved. Not May for doing bulk of the work, not Boris for getting tweaks, not those forcing Boris to work more for a desl.
If they are the tweaks that turns May's Deal from the heavist ever Westminster defeat to getting it through the same House, then 1) they ain't tweaks and 2) Boris will get the credit.
Which Labour will hate. By holding out for a political advantage by opposing May, they will have been the architects of Boris's rise to political glory. Hard not to laugh.....
Boris, biggest lay in PB betting history? (Or was that Leaving the EU at 4/1?) Getting a deal when we were told time after time ‘Of course, what Johnson wants is No Deal, we all know that...’?
Surely not
The Benn Act has been quite effective in forcing BoZo to negotiate. Leavers should acknowledge that.
Sure, in the same way as escapology acts become less impressive if the magician performs them underwater, because it gives them an incentive to succeed...
I'm really struggling to see that the authors of the Benn act had the intention of using it to force a deal. It's pretty clear to me that they saw it as nothing more than a pathway to a guaranteed extension, a GE and a second referendum, followed by revoke and a huge sigh of relief.
Nigel old bean, welcome to the 1 point something percent club. If you'd like to go over there with the BNP, English Democrats and Natural Law, I think you guys will have lots to discuss.
Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.
Yeah, that seems not to be noticed by the headbangers but it seems pretty unarguable on the turn of events.
And wasn’t it only a few days ago that Cummings was briefing that if the EU didn’t like Boris’s original proposals he would just walk away, that would be it, no negotiations blah, blah? That seems to have been more piss and wind.
Anyway, all this cautious rejoicing is a bit premature, no? There isn’t a deal yet. Fingers crossed.
What comes out will be the original EU proposal of a NI only Backstop IMO.
Which the DUP will again veto leaving Boris reliant on Labour votes again to get it through.
So still a Tory majority is probably needed to get the Deal through the Commons
What's happened to the NI referendum you were proposing until recently?
The patience people have with no-dealers is about up. There's always going to be treaty as thats how you have to have relationships with other countrys.
'No treaties' is like saying 'No trade'. We live in a world of rules.
I believe Farage wants a Canada style FTA with the EU but not the Withdrawal Agreement, though the EU will not agree the former without the latter
Mr. Roger, I didn't vote for the Leave campaign. I voted to leave the EU.
The idea that Hitler being a vegetarian* makes it evil is not one that stands up to intellectual scrutiny.
*The term 'vegetarian' has altered a bit over time. Back then, eating kidney was still ok. A few decades ago, some ate fish. It tends to mean no animal stuff at all now.
Mr Dancer, that is not true. You voted to Leave the EU, and by doing so you voted also for the leave campaign as it advocated that action. The two are not inseparable or divisible, they are the same thing, like an unholy trinity without the third member.
Why the hell would the EU want a "confirmatory referendum"? If there's a deal, nail the bloody thing down in Westminster. The last thing the EU wants is a wholly unneccessary bit of extra democracy thrown into the mix. What if the orney voters nix the deal? Where are they then?
Nah, if the Irish are happy with it, that should do the EU too. No futher extensions and put the MPs' feet to the fire. Make them do what they pledged to their voters they'd do - deliver Brexit.
So you are against democracy
Referendums are for “in principle” decisions
Details legislation is for Parliament
Treaties are for the executive subject to parliamentary oversight
So speaks the constitutional expert. My understanding was that constitutional experts are uncertain of the constitutional status of referenda as we do not have it as a mainstream part of our unwritten constitution. Still it is good that you are one of the few leavers I have heard recognise that the referendum was purely advisory, which of course it was, and badly drafted at that.
Legally advisory but from a moral (and political) perspective wrong to ignore
Parliament is subservient to the voters not their master
Lovely theory, but not how our constitution works. Consider the analogy of being the trustee of a trust in favour of a five year old child. You are entirely subservient to his interests, but that doesn't mean that you should ask him for his opinion as to the prospects for long-dated gilts, or, if he expresses an opinion, pay any attention to it. That is not your job and not in his interests. Our democracy quite rightly treats the people as you should be treating your five year old, except that the people get a limited chance to replace the trustees from time to time.
It would be a bad idea to put anyone in charge of a child's trust unless you had a good reason to believe they have the child's best interests at heart. What is our reason to believe that for politicians?
Foxy said; "Yes, I agree. If we are to move on from stigmatising mental health issues, then such terms should be as obsolete as calling someone a girly swot or piccaninny."
Please don`t restrict your language - girly swot is straight out of Moleworth. We need to fight against restricting free speech. I dislike piccaninny, but wouldn`t ban it.
I presume you agree there have to be some limits to free-speech. If so, it's down to a question of where you draw the line.
We have one. Where you promote violence or hatred against a person or another group of people.
I don't think the 'piccaninny' quote does that, even if it's distasteful.
Nigel old bean, welcome to the 1 point something percent club. If you'd like to go over there with the BNP, English Democrats and Natural Law, I think you guys will have lots to discuss.
The we don't want anything to do with the EU party currently polls something between 16% (BXP poll share) and 30% (BXP euro election share). That isn't going to change while the EU is the main topic of conversation.
Now once we've left the EU he may join the 1% club but it's unlikely as any deal won't be unicorny enough for a lot of that 16%..
The silence from Downing Street, normally so noisy, is the main focus of my attention just now. It doesn’t have a line to take yet because it doesn’t know who it is taking on yet. The vacuum has been filled by the Irish perspective on the discussions.
When Boris Johnson or Dominic Cummings eventually break cover, we will know much more.
At what stage in the next week do people think that the DUP and ERG will be told what any proposed deal involves? And what about the rest of us?
When a Final Deal comes out the Tunnel of Love.....
You think they'll just be presented with a fait accompli?
They'll be told "This is the only Deal achievable. No Deal has been prevented by law. It's this - or revoke. It will be up to you to explain to your constituents why you allowed revoke...."
I can't see him going to Revoke.
But I suppose he can present them with a deal on the Friday evening, and say that unless they vote for it within 24 hours he will be legally obliged to ask for an extension, and then there will be an election, and any Tory rebels will be expelled and out of a job, and the DUP most likely will be out of their previous position of influence, and what's more the Tories as an irrevocably divided party that has failed again to deliver Brexit may lose it, and therefore Brexit may fail altogether.
Speaking of which what are the bets Becky vs Coleen - which is the leaver and which is the remainer?
I would put Coleen as the remainer and Vardy as the leaver.
Quite possibly. Merseyside was pretty solidly Remain.
Quite apart from the #Wagathachristie element, the fight is an interesting insight into British class structure. The original generation of 2006 Wags regard Rebekah Vardy as a lower class upstart wannabee. That is the root of what has transpired.
Even lower class than the others ?
Exactly!
One of the delights of the intricacies of the British class system is the awareness of status levels immediately adjacent.
The difference in status between a Baronet and an Earl, between a barrister and a QC, between a brickie and a sparky are acute to those involved but obscure to more distant social groups.
Anyone who has even dealt with an electrician will be well aware of the acute distinctions between them and other trades.
The painter and decorator is the one who feels superior to all other trades. They're the ones who make the place nice and tidy. They hide the crap joinery and plastering and make good the huge gaps around the back boxes that the sparky always leaves. He also gets to blame his shoddy work on the previous trades slapdash ways!
Leavers compromised by voting for her rather than UKIP
Farage compromised by not standing in 2017, and not being Ukip leader.
And then they screamed blue murder when she did something that was, er, a compromise. If leavers are going to compromise then they should compromise. Farage didn't stand and then blasted and continues to blast her compromise deal.
Who screamed blue murder?
You!
Eh? How? I said back the deal
We are where we are (in a mess) because of the vagaries of the British democratic system. Sadly, we can't pick and choose which bits we like and which bits we think are counter-productive (to our own wished for outcome). Hence the compromise, which the voters delivered in 2016 and 2017, has resulted in this impasse. No one likes it, and hence I think you are screaming blue murder at it, but it is all the result of of our democratic process.
No, you said
“ they screamed blue murder when she did something that was, er, a compromise”
I asked who screamed blue murder, you said
“You!”
In the context of screaming blue murder at May’s compromise, how can someone who backed it be included? That is just wrong. It’s ok to backtrack and say so
It doesn't matter whether you backed May's deal or not. As I keep saying, by voting Leave you set in train the whole maelstrom of events, one of which was to find ourselves exactly where we are.
Hence you voted to leave and entirely predictably we have not left, regardless of the machinations of people who have tried to leave (eg. May's deal which you are a fan of), and now you scream blue murder because we haven't left.
What is really clear this morning is the total panic in remainers ... This surely cant be happening.... Can it?
I'm a Remainer. If there's a general election before Brexit I will vote for Revoke.
This morning I am cautiously optimistic and slightly relieved.
What's this panic you speak of?
I feel a cautious optimism, but we have to remember it is Boris Johnson who is PM; a man unprecedentedly unsuited to the position with as much experience of negotiation as my pet cat. Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.
Keeping his marriage alive as long as he did must have involved some negotiation...
Or a wife willing to be a doormat.
Or one willing to turn a blind eye because she cared more about her children, perhaps?
Possibly also relieved that she'd managed to subcontract that aspect of her marital duties.
Not entirely. They have 4 children after all. And she was a second wife, marrying him a week before their first was born. So not entirely unaware of his moral character. Let’s be blunt: if you got together with your partner as a result of their adultery you’re taking a chance that they won’t do precisely the same to you.
Nigel old bean, welcome to the 1 point something percent club. If you'd like to go over there with the BNP, English Democrats and Natural Law, I think you guys will have lots to discuss.
The we don't want anything to do with the EU party currently polls something between 16% (BXP poll share) and 30% (BXP euro election share). That isn't going to change while the EU is the main topic of conversation.
Now once we've left the EU he may join the 1% club but it's unlikely as any deal won't be unicorny enough for a lot of that 16%..
Snow off a dyke if a deal is agreed. Mile high and an inch wide
Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.
Yeah, that seems not to be noticed by the headbangers but it seems pretty unarguable on the turn of events.
And wasn’t it only a few days ago that Cummings was briefing that if the EU didn’t like Boris’s original proposals he would just walk away, that would be it, no negotiations blah, blah? That seems to have been more piss and wind.
Anyway, all this cautious rejoicing is a bit premature, no? There isn’t a deal yet. Fingers crossed.
What comes out will be the original EU proposal of a NI only Backstop IMO.
Which the DUP will again veto leaving Boris reliant on Labour votes again to get it through.
So still a Tory majority is probably needed to get the Deal through the Commons
What's happened to the NI referendum you were proposing until recently?
It needs a Tory majority, there is no point at the moment as the DUP will veto a NI only backstop whatever a NI referendum says as most Unionists will still vote against it and not enough Labour MPs will vote for a Boris Brexit Deal either
To be fair to Farage he led Leave.eu, it was Boris, Cummings and Gove who led Vote Leave
People voted to Leave. Leave was headed not by Leave.Eu but Vote Leave. They therefore voted for the proposition put forward by Vote Leave. So, whatever Nigel's personal views are, people voted for what is in this document.
F1: mildly amused that the race weather forecast appears to be drizzle.
The big question is whether they'll be able to clear the track up in time for Sunday qualifying ahead of the race. For now, Bottas is on provisional pole, which is important if only because I put a bit of money on him straight after FP2....
Leavers compromised by voting for her rather than UKIP
Farage compromised by not standing in 2017, and not being Ukip leader.
And then they screamed blue murder when she did something that was, er, a compromise. If leavers are going to compromise then they should compromise. Farage didn't stand and then blasted and continues to blast her compromise deal.
Who screamed blue murder?
You!
Eh? How? I said back the deal
We are where we are (in a mess) because of the vagaries of the British democratic system. Sadly, we can't pick and choose which bits we like and which bits we think are counter-productive (to our own wished for outcome). Hence the compromise, which the voters delivered in 2016 and 2017, has resulted in this impasse. No one likes it, and hence I think you are screaming blue murder at it, but it is all the result of of our democratic process.
No, you said
“ they screamed blue murder when she did something that was, er, a compromise”
I asked who screamed blue murder, you said
“You!”
In the context of screaming blue murder at May’s compromise, how can someone who backed it be included? That is just wrong. It’s ok to backtrack and say so
It doesn't matter whether you backed May's deal or not. As I keep saying, by voting Leave you set in train the whole maelstrom of events, one of which was to find ourselves exactly where we are.
Hence you voted to leave and entirely predictably we have not left, regardless of the machinations of people who have tried to leave (eg. May's deal which you are a fan of), and now you scream blue murder because we haven't left.
If you can’t admit you made a mistake, I can’t be bothered entertaining you
The vote was on whether we should leave the EU or not. It was not endorsing any campaign. It was not voting on which campaign you liked or disliked. The matter of the referendum was whether the United Kingdom should remain in or leave the EU.
As I've written before, repeatedly, I believe the EU will be torn apart in coming decades by the necessity (and ideological drive of some) to accrue more power from the nation-states to the centre, in order to function. This, coupled with a foolish one size fits all approach, will create ever more tension with that quaint nation of people determining their own destiny through national democracy, as power is taken from the people (usually without their consent) and given from them to the unaccountable EU.
I fear this will lead the EU to break up and to do so in a way that causes civil unrest if not actual war.
And if one thinks an edifice is going to crumble, it's better to get out before the roof caves in.
Whatever any Leave or Remain campaign said had no impact on that. The idea I should vote to stay in, even though, on balance, I felt leaving to be right for the country just because a campaign has been atrocious (and Remain was hardly a stunning display of rhetorical eloquence) is bizarre.
[I was more uncertain than expected in the polling booth, and hesitated for some time. I did fear the immediate economic impact would be far more severe].
Speaking of which what are the bets Becky vs Coleen - which is the leaver and which is the remainer?
I would put Coleen as the remainer and Vardy as the leaver.
Quite possibly. Merseyside was pretty solidly Remain.
Quite apart from the #Wagathachristie element, the fight is an interesting insight into British class structure. The original generation of 2006 Wags regard Rebekah Vardy as a lower class upstart wannabee. That is the root of what has transpired.
Even lower class than the others ?
Exactly!
One of the delights of the intricacies of the British class system is the awareness of status levels immediately adjacent.
The difference in status between a Baronet and an Earl, between a barrister and a QC, between a brickie and a sparky are acute to those involved but obscure to more distant social groups.
I was once with a friend who, in a "heated" (ie friendly) discussion, said "I outrank you" to the person he was arguing with.
In the military sense?
Was sat with a group of ex service people arguing about cross service seniority so decided to tell them my wife outranked them all as she as an honorary Major from her time as a pharmacist at a hospital used and partially staffed by the military. It stopped their discussion dead.
There are some shitty examples of military wives assuming the ranks of their husbands to talk down to women whose husbands are of a lower military rank.
I have a cousin who was an officer in the Royal Signals, and did 2 years attached to the Gurkhas. Mostly he had a great time, but his wife found the order of precedence issues amongst officers wives completely bizarre and archaic, but nonetheless taken extremely seriously. It was like living in Kipling's India.
As I understand the Benn Act, Johnson needs a deal in principle by 19 October to avoid sending the letter. He then has twelve days to get the deal ratified and executed or we leave without a deal. Unless...
I hope that kind of answers your question Mr Topping
Yes! Thank you it did. I would say also that by voting Leave (xenophobic campaign aside although I think it is an important factor and don't begrudge people for whom it is the primary one) you ushered in the era whereby we have the chance of a Corbyn PM. Vote Remain and we would be berating George Osborne for sticking out his little finger while having a pint of Old Peculiar on one of his PM's meet the people tours.
I'm sorry to say but anyone but the out and out leavers (eg. @Richard_Tyndall et al) should hang their heads in shame at their behaviour by voting Leave without understanding (and I appreciate you are well-educated, etc, etc) that it was overwhelmingly likely that we would end up precisely where we are today. That is, having to make a series of least worst decisions with the spectre of Jeremy Corbyn on the one hand, and born-again ex-Tories like @HYUFD who accept any old shit the "Tory" party feeds them on the other.
Your fault.
Sozza, you seem a hugely nice, engaging and articulate person but this is on you.
Nigel old bean, welcome to the 1 point something percent club. If you'd like to go over there with the BNP, English Democrats and Natural Law, I think you guys will have lots to discuss.
The we don't want anything to do with the EU party currently polls something between 16% (BXP poll share) and 30% (BXP euro election share). That isn't going to change while the EU is the main topic of conversation.
Now once we've left the EU he may join the 1% club but it's unlikely as any deal won't be unicorny enough for a lot of that 16%..
The latest Yougov has the Tories on 34% and the Brexit Party on 12%.
After May extended the Brexit Party reached 26% in one Yougov poll at the start of June with the Tories on just 18%
Speaking of which what are the bets Becky vs Coleen - which is the leaver and which is the remainer?
I would put Coleen as the remainer and Vardy as the leaver.
Quite possibly. Merseyside was pretty solidly Remain.
Quite apart from the #Wagathachristie element, the fight is an interesting insight into British class structure. The original generation of 2006 Wags regard Rebekah Vardy as a lower class upstart wannabee. That is the root of what has transpired.
Even lower class than the others ?
Exactly!
One of the delights of the intricacies of the British class system is the awareness of status levels immediately adjacent.
The difference in status between a Baronet and an Earl, between a barrister and a QC, between a brickie and a sparky are acute to those involved but obscure to more distant social groups.
Anyone who has even dealt with an electrician will be well aware of the acute distinctions between them and other trades.
The painter and decorator is the one who feels superior to all other trades. They're the ones who make the place nice and tidy. They hide the crap joinery and plastering and make good the huge gaps around the back boxes that the sparky always leaves. He also gets to blame his shoddy work on the previous trades slapdash ways!
Really ? I've always found they resent the crap left for them in the expectation they'll clear it all up.
What is really clear this morning is the total panic in remainers ... This surely cant be happening.... Can it?
I'm a Remainer. If there's a general election before Brexit I will vote for Revoke.
This morning I am cautiously optimistic and slightly relieved.
What's this panic you speak of?
I feel a cautious optimism, but we have to remember it is Boris Johnson who is PM; a man unprecedentedly unsuited to the position with as much experience of negotiation as my pet cat. Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.
Keeping his marriage alive as long as he did must have involved some negotiation...
Or a wife willing to be a doormat.
Or one willing to turn a blind eye because she cared more about her children, perhaps?
Possibly also relieved that she'd managed to subcontract that aspect of her marital duties.
Not entirely. They have 4 children after all. And she was a second wife, marrying him a week before their first was born. So not entirely unaware of his moral character. Let’s be blunt: if you got together with your partner as a result of their adultery you’re taking a chance that they won’t do precisely the same to you.
A man marrying his mistress is creating a job opportunity.
Thank you for that, really enjoyed it, though not so good for you as he points out the fundamental differences between patriotism (good) and nationalism (bad).
Well, that's the least surprising tweet of the day.
Mind you, you have to admire his chutzpah, given that he spent decades arguing for a new treaty with the EU.
Not only is it in "Pope has balcony" territory but also gives the lie to all those "reasonable" leavers who say they would have settled for EFTA/EEA. Uncle Nige wouldn't have. And if I had the energy and technological knowhow I would search for any of several posts of mine, pre-referendum, which effectively said exactly what Nige has said - do we really expect Leavers to swap one EU treaty for another?
I'm sure you also wrote a couple at least to that effect.
So where are we? Obviously we don't know what exactly is happening in talks between the EU and the UK government, but I do think people are getting over-excited. After all, doing a deal with the EU is the easy bit; we already have one, for a start. That isn't the problem, and hasn't been since November of last year. The problem is getting any such deal through this parliament. The political priorities of the various blocking minorities haven't changed, and any move to get one lot on side makes it harder to keep another lot on side. And it's not as though Boris has exactly gone out of his way to charm MPs into helping him meet his do-or-die deadline; quite the reverse, it's in the overwhelming partisan interests of the opposition parties, and his growing band of enemies from the Tory or ex-Tory side, to ensure he doesn't.
What I think that means is that it is likely that the Benn Act has forced him to change strategy so that he will now concede enough to get a deal with the EU, fail to get it ratified in time for the end of the month, get an extension, and then go for a GE, running on a platform of his new deal (which will be much the same as Theresa May's). It might work, but he has to shrug off his broken promises and accusations of betrayal from the Spartans and Farage, keep the Conservative Party sufficiently united, and force it to be more realistic and sane than it has been so far this year. That certainly won't be plain sailing.
Foxy said; "Yes, I agree. If we are to move on from stigmatising mental health issues, then such terms should be as obsolete as calling someone a girly swot or piccaninny."
Please don`t restrict your language - girly swot is straight out of Moleworth. We need to fight against restricting free speech. I dislike piccaninny, but wouldn`t ban it.
I presume you agree there have to be some limits to free-speech. If so, it's down to a question of where you draw the line.
I like “girly swot” and intend appropriating it.
As for limits to free speech, inciting violence is where the line should be drawn. And no further.
The vote was on whether we should leave the EU or not. It was not endorsing any campaign. It was not voting on which campaign you liked or disliked. The matter of the referendum was whether the United Kingdom should remain in or leave the EU.
As I've written before, repeatedly, I believe the EU will be torn apart in coming decades by the necessity (and ideological drive of some) to accrue more power from the nation-states to the centre, in order to function. This, coupled with a foolish one size fits all approach, will create ever more tension with that quaint nation of people determining their own destiny through national democracy, as power is taken from the people (usually without their consent) and given from them to the unaccountable EU.
I fear this will lead the EU to break up and to do so in a way that causes civil unrest if not actual war.
And if one thinks an edifice is going to crumble, it's better to get out before the roof caves in.
Whatever any Leave or Remain campaign said had no impact on that. The idea I should vote to stay in, even though, on balance, I felt leaving to be right for the country just because a campaign has been atrocious (and Remain was hardly a stunning display of rhetorical eloquence) is bizarre.
[I was more uncertain than expected in the polling booth, and hesitated for some time. I did fear the immediate economic impact would be far more severe].
All evidence suggests this process has increased support for the EU within the populace of EU states, and the opposite has happened to the support within and for a United Kingdom.
I think the biggest threat facing the EU is dealing with authoritarians and proto fascist movements, like we see in Poland, Hungary and Italy. I think that will be more of the test than the ever closer union issue.
I think a United States of Europe is the logical outcome of modernity and peace. Much like the USA, states would be allowed individual identities, but benefit from the cooperation between those states. Yes, the history is older, and the fights between European states longer, but I think it is an admirable aim and a likely one.
So where are we? Obviously we don't know what exactly is happening in talks between the EU and the UK government, but I do think people are getting over-excited. After all, doing a deal with the EU is the easy bit; we already have one, for a start. That isn't the problem, and hasn't been since November of last year. The problem is getting any such deal through this parliament. The political priorities of the various blocking minorities haven't changed, and any move to get one lot on side makes it harder to keep another lot on side. And it's not as though Boris has exactly gone out of his way to charm MPs into helping him meet his do-or-die deadline; quite the reverse, it's in the overwhelming partisan interests of the opposition parties, and his growing band of enemies from the Tory or ex-Tory side, to ensure he doesn't.
What I think that means is that it is likely that the Benn Act has forced him to change strategy so that he will now concede enough to get a deal with the EU, fail to get it ratified in time for the end of the month, get an extension, and then go for a GE, running on a platform of his new deal (which will be much the same as Theresa May's). It might work, but he has to shrug off his broken promises and accusations of betrayal from the Spartans and Farage, keep the Conservative Party sufficiently united, and force it to be more realistic and sane than it has been so far this year. That certainly won't be plain sailing.
Speaking of which what are the bets Becky vs Coleen - which is the leaver and which is the remainer?
I would put Coleen as the remainer and Vardy as the leaver.
Quite possibly. Merseyside was pretty solidly Remain.
Quite apart from the #Wagathachristie element, the fight is an interesting insight into British class structure. The original generation of 2006 Wags regard Rebekah Vardy as a lower class upstart wannabee. That is the root of what has transpired.
Even lower class than the others ?
Exactly!
One of the delights of the intricacies of the British class system is the awareness of status levels immediately adjacent.
The difference in status between a Baronet and an Earl, between a barrister and a QC, between a brickie and a sparky are acute to those involved but obscure to more distant social groups.
I was once with a friend who, in a "heated" (ie friendly) discussion, said "I outrank you" to the person he was arguing with.
In the military sense?
Was sat with a group of ex service people arguing about cross service seniority so decided to tell them my wife outranked them all as she as an honorary Major from her time as a pharmacist at a hospital used and partially staffed by the military. It stopped their discussion dead.
There are some shitty examples of military wives assuming the ranks of their husbands to talk down to women whose husbands are of a lower military rank.
I have a cousin who was an officer in the Royal Signals, and did 2 years attached to the Gurkhas. Mostly he had a great time, but his wife found the order of precedence issues amongst officers wives completely bizarre and archaic, but nonetheless taken extremely seriously. It was like living in Kipling's India.
benpointer sard: "I presume you agree there have to be some limits to free-speech. If so, it's down to a question of where you draw the line."
I`m a liberal. Limits of free speech only in exceptional circumstances to prevent harm to other. You shouldn`t shout fire in a crowded theatre when you know there is no fire.
The vote was on whether we should leave the EU or not. It was not endorsing any campaign. It was not voting on which campaign you liked or disliked. The matter of the referendum was whether the United Kingdom should remain in or leave the EU.
As I've written before, repeatedly, I believe the EU will be torn apart in coming decades by the necessity (and ideological drive of some) to accrue more power from the nation-states to the centre, in order to function. This, coupled with a foolish one size fits all approach, will create ever more tension with that quaint nation of people determining their own destiny through national democracy, as power is taken from the people (usually without their consent) and given from them to the unaccountable EU.
I fear this will lead the EU to break up and to do so in a way that causes civil unrest if not actual war.
And if one thinks an edifice is going to crumble, it's better to get out before the roof caves in.
Whatever any Leave or Remain campaign said had no impact on that. The idea I should vote to stay in, even though, on balance, I felt leaving to be right for the country just because a campaign has been atrocious (and Remain was hardly a stunning display of rhetorical eloquence) is bizarre.
[I was more uncertain than expected in the polling booth, and hesitated for some time. I did fear the immediate economic impact would be far more severe].
Mr Dancer, as an intelligent chap, I am quite sure you are not suggesting that you blocked your ears to everything that was said and was completely uninfluenced by any campaigning, particularly if you were someone who hesitated in the polling booth. No-one is that impervious to influence.
Speaking of which what are the bets Becky vs Coleen - which is the leaver and which is the remainer?
I would put Coleen as the remainer and Vardy as the leaver.
Quite possibly. Merseyside was pretty solidly Remain.
Quite apart from the #Wagathachristie element, the fight is an interesting insight into British class structure. The original generation of 2006 Wags regard Rebekah Vardy as a lower class upstart wannabee. That is the root of what has transpired.
That's funny! Coleen lives in Prestbury. Couldn't be much further removed from Merseyside.
"You can take the girl out of Scouserville ... "
It would be a bit of a squeeze getting this into Upper Parliament St
Based on current aggregate of polls by Britain elects, using Flavibles new system, under a Remain pact including Labour, Lab / LDs could form a government. Without Labour, (just LDs, Greens and Nats), Tories don't get a majority, but massively ahead of Labour.
This suggests tactical voting is going to be super important, and that any result based on national polls is going to be really difficult to predict. I can't find any constituency level polling atm, so maybe with some of that it would look different, but who knows.
Yes, that's exactly what I think.
On topic, I think Boris has played a blinder in purely political terms, by convincing us all including the ever-sceptical DUP that he was Mr No Deal, scaring us shitless with the prospect, and then offering a deal. A super-Remainer colleague who detests Boris says "I can't believe that I'm actually hoping he gets his deal to leave the EU through, but he's somehow persuaded me that it's the least bad alternative".
The question is whether he's resisted the temptation to say different things to different people. We'll know in a few days, so no need to speculate.
Speaking of which what are the bets Becky vs Coleen - which is the leaver and which is the remainer?
I would put Coleen as the remainer and Vardy as the leaver.
Quite possibly. Merseyside was pretty solidly Remain.
Quite apart from the #Wagathachristie element, the fight is an interesting insight into British class structure. The original generation of 2006 Wags regard Rebekah Vardy as a lower class upstart wannabee. That is the root of what has transpired.
Even lower class than the others ?
Exactly!
One of the delights of the intricacies of the British class system is the awareness of status levels immediately adjacent.
The difference in status between a Baronet and an Earl, between a barrister and a QC, between a brickie and a sparky are acute to those involved but obscure to more distant social groups.
I was once with a friend who, in a "heated" (ie friendly) discussion, said "I outrank you" to the person he was arguing with.
In the military sense?
Was sat with a group of ex service people arguing about cross service seniority so decided to tell them my wife outranked them all as she as an honorary Major from her time as a pharmacist at a hospital used and partially staffed by the military. It stopped their discussion dead.
There are some shitty examples of military wives assuming the ranks of their husbands to talk down to women whose husbands are of a lower military rank.
I have a cousin who was an officer in the Royal Signals, and did 2 years attached to the Gurkhas. Mostly he had a great time, but his wife found the order of precedence issues amongst officers wives completely bizarre and archaic, but nonetheless taken extremely seriously. It was like living in Kipling's India.
The attitude of most barristers to solicitors gets on my goat. You are selling your services to us, guys, so treating us like one of your grouse beaters is not good business!
Based on current aggregate of polls by Britain elects, using Flavibles new system, under a Remain pact including Labour, Lab / LDs could form a government. Without Labour, (just LDs, Greens and Nats), Tories don't get a majority, but massively ahead of Labour.
This suggests tactical voting is going to be super important, and that any result based on national polls is going to be really difficult to predict. I can't find any constituency level polling atm, so maybe with some of that it would look different, but who knows.
Yes, that's exactly what I think.
On topic, I think Boris has played a blinder in purely political terms, by convincing us all including the ever-sceptical DUP that he was Mr No Deal, scaring us shitless with the prospect, and then offering a deal. A super-Remainer colleague who detests Boris says "I can't believe that I'm actually hoping he gets his deal to leave the EU through, but he's somehow persuaded me that it's the least bad alternative".
The question is whether he's resisted the temptation to say different things to different people. We'll know in a few days, so no need to speculate.
I think the Benn act has forced him to be less enamoured with the prospect of no-deal. Far from making his negotiating position harder, it has made negotiating a political expedient
I hope that kind of answers your question Mr Topping
Yes! Thank you it did. I would say also that by voting Leave (xenophobic campaign aside although I think it is an important factor and don't begrudge people for whom it is the primary one) you ushered in the era whereby we have the chance of a Corbyn PM. Vote Remain and we would be berating George Osborne for sticking out his little finger while having a pint of Old Peculiar on one of his PM's meet the people tours.
I'm sorry to say but anyone but the out and out leavers (eg. @Richard_Tyndall et al) should hang their heads in shame at their behaviour by voting Leave without understanding (and I appreciate you are well-educated, etc, etc) that it was overwhelmingly likely that we would end up precisely where we are today. That is, having to make a series of least worst decisions with the spectre of Jeremy Corbyn on the one hand, and born-again ex-Tories like @HYUFD who accept any old shit the "Tory" party feeds them on the other.
Your fault.
Sozza, you seem a hugely nice, engaging and articulate person but this is on you.
Do I have buyers remorse? To an extent, yes. I guess i had too much faith in our politicians and systems to be able to sort this kind of thing out. Guess the UK has lost most of what made it such an important diplomatic and effective player over the last couple of centuries. We're just "standard" now. So my worry about EU democracy, or the lack of it, actually, falls away.
To close: If Labour can be returned by its decent rational members to its decent centre-left roots with a decent, economically literate Leader, my quid pro quo would be to vote Remain, with an active and vigourous approach to reform the EU. Make ourselves as influential and important to the EU as France or Germany. Mold it into what we want.
(And I'll put the EU flag back on my number-plate)
Blimey. If she can pull a few put downs on Trump like that we may be in business.
I'm still deeply concerned as someone desperately wants a Dem win.
I think any Dem is favoured against Trump, although it is possibly a close thing. 60/40 maybe.
I think Warren is best placed to capitalise off the recent health scare with Bernie and Biden's bidenness. She can placate the left with good enough policy and the party elites will accept her as one of them, which they would never do for Bernie.
Her biggest issue at the moment is African American support for Joe Biden; although she has made headway recently. I think if she wins Iowa and NH and has a good second in the Carolinas, that she will win the nomination in the end.
Mr. Foremain, if either side had said anything that I considered new information or a persuasive argument then of course that would've had some influence, even if I contemplated a new perspective only to reject it.
But, shocking as this may be, the overblown fear-mongering of Osborne and the dread doomsaying of Farage did not, in fact, persuade me of anything except their predilection for exaggeration and preference for slogans over reason.
Based on current aggregate of polls by Britain elects, using Flavibles new system, under a Remain pact including Labour, Lab / LDs could form a government. Without Labour, (just LDs, Greens and Nats), Tories don't get a majority, but massively ahead of Labour.
This suggests tactical voting is going to be super important, and that any result based on national polls is going to be really difficult to predict. I can't find any constituency level polling atm, so maybe with some of that it would look different, but who knows.
Yes, that's exactly what I think.
On topic, I think Boris has played a blinder in purely political terms, by convincing us all including the ever-sceptical DUP that he was Mr No Deal, scaring us shitless with the prospect, and then offering a deal. A super-Remainer colleague who detests Boris says "I can't believe that I'm actually hoping he gets his deal to leave the EU through, but he's somehow persuaded me that it's the least bad alternative".
The question is whether he's resisted the temptation to say different things to different people. We'll know in a few days, so no need to speculate.
Yes, Boris and Cummings have played expectations brilliantly, such that they've got almost every newspaper (for example) praying that they land a deal. Even the Guardian is begrudgingly positive.
But they're not the only ones hoping for a deal, and the good vibe it brings. If a deal happens, the EU will want to take some credit for it. Any tweets from Tusk or Barnier, etc, should be seen in that light.
Comments
So still a Tory majority is probably needed to get the Deal through the Commons
One of the delights of the intricacies of the British class system is the awareness of status levels immediately adjacent.
The difference in status between a Baronet and an Earl, between a barrister and a QC, between a brickie and a sparky are acute to those involved but obscure to more distant social groups.
Leaving without due consideration to those that voted for remain (who overwhelmingly had good intentions themselves (apart from a vocal few)) is not sustainable democratically or economically or the point of why I voted to leave in the first place. Cutting ourselves off at the drop of a hat is stupid and not in any way reflective of how the UK has always gone about things.
We are where we are predominately due to our negotiations being hampered from the get-go by the seminal election in 2017. Our negotiating position, and the space for compromise in the HOC was destroyed.
I don't blame the EU for taking advantage of a politically-hobbled TM - every party must negotiate in their best interests. But we did lose any advantage we may have had early on.
Would I Remain in the face of No Deal? In ordinary circumstances, yes. But that comes with the codicil that remaining isn't a passport to business as usual. If we remain a member the EU must change, either just for us or as a whole. Preferably as a whole - for its own sake more than anything else. And the UK population must be brought along with this idea in a non-partisan settlement of our membership.
Would I actually Remain in our current circumstances? I'm more scared of Corbyn, Milne and McDonnell than I am of anything the EU can throw at us.I'm in a paradox. Remaining, indeed increasing our membership to including the EUR and whatnot paralyses their regressive agenda. On the other hand rowing back to remaining now destroys the opposition to Corbyn making him much more likely to gain power. A Corbyn manacled by the EU is still a dangerous thing. The UK can survive a theoretical federalisation into the EU, It won't survive unchecked Marxism.
Basically I've evolved from a Leaver to a stop Corbyn at any cost person. So I have to support Boris. I have no choice.
Please don`t restrict your language - girly swot is straight out of Moleworth. We need to fight against restricting free speech. I dislike piccaninny, but wouldn`t ban it.
The idea that Hitler being a vegetarian* makes it evil is not one that stands up to intellectual scrutiny.
*The term 'vegetarian' has altered a bit over time. Back then, eating kidney was still ok. A few decades ago, some ate fish. It tends to mean no animal stuff at all now.
https://twitter.com/OnaliEnrico/status/1182562838172315648?s=20
Mind, he does that.
“ they screamed blue murder when she did something that was, er, a compromise”
I asked who screamed blue murder, you said
“You!”
In the context of screaming blue murder at May’s compromise, how can someone who backed it be included? That is just wrong. It’s ok to backtrack and say so
'No treaties' is like saying 'No trade'. We live in a world of rules.
This might be the one that works.
I'm really struggling to see that the authors of the Benn act had the intention of using it to force a deal. It's pretty clear to me that they saw it as nothing more than a pathway to a guaranteed extension, a GE and a second referendum, followed by revoke and a huge sigh of relief.
Mind you, you have to admire his chutzpah, given that he spent decades arguing for a new treaty with the EU.
I don't think the 'piccaninny' quote does that, even if it's distasteful.
Now once we've left the EU he may join the 1% club but it's unlikely as any deal won't be unicorny enough for a lot of that 16%..
But I suppose he can present them with a deal on the Friday evening, and say that unless they vote for it within 24 hours he will be legally obliged to ask for an extension, and then there will be an election, and any Tory rebels will be expelled and out of a job, and the DUP most likely will be out of their previous position of influence, and what's more the Tories as an irrevocably divided party that has failed again to deliver Brexit may lose it, and therefore Brexit may fail altogether.
Perhaps it could work.
Hence you voted to leave and entirely predictably we have not left, regardless of the machinations of people who have tried to leave (eg. May's deal which you are a fan of), and now you scream blue murder because we haven't left.
Will soon be time for him to go off into the sunset and fade into the history books...
For now, Bottas is on provisional pole, which is important if only because I put a bit of money on him straight after FP2....
It’s there in black and white for all to see.
The vote was on whether we should leave the EU or not. It was not endorsing any campaign. It was not voting on which campaign you liked or disliked. The matter of the referendum was whether the United Kingdom should remain in or leave the EU.
As I've written before, repeatedly, I believe the EU will be torn apart in coming decades by the necessity (and ideological drive of some) to accrue more power from the nation-states to the centre, in order to function. This, coupled with a foolish one size fits all approach, will create ever more tension with that quaint nation of people determining their own destiny through national democracy, as power is taken from the people (usually without their consent) and given from them to the unaccountable EU.
I fear this will lead the EU to break up and to do so in a way that causes civil unrest if not actual war.
And if one thinks an edifice is going to crumble, it's better to get out before the roof caves in.
Whatever any Leave or Remain campaign said had no impact on that. The idea I should vote to stay in, even though, on balance, I felt leaving to be right for the country just because a campaign has been atrocious (and Remain was hardly a stunning display of rhetorical eloquence) is bizarre.
[I was more uncertain than expected in the polling booth, and hesitated for some time. I did fear the immediate economic impact would be far more severe].
I'm sorry to say but anyone but the out and out leavers (eg. @Richard_Tyndall et al) should hang their heads in shame at their behaviour by voting Leave without understanding (and I appreciate you are well-educated, etc, etc) that it was overwhelmingly likely that we would end up precisely where we are today. That is, having to make a series of least worst decisions with the spectre of Jeremy Corbyn on the one hand, and born-again ex-Tories like @HYUFD who accept any old shit the "Tory" party feeds them on the other.
Your fault.
Sozza, you seem a hugely nice, engaging and articulate person but this is on you.
After May extended the Brexit Party reached 26% in one Yougov poll at the start of June with the Tories on just 18%
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election
There's also a not unreasonable chance he'll end up delaying/cancelling elections.
I'm sure you also wrote a couple at least to that effect.
https://twitter.com/jordanuhl/status/1182468483906527232?s=21
What I think that means is that it is likely that the Benn Act has forced him to change strategy so that he will now concede enough to get a deal with the EU, fail to get it ratified in time for the end of the month, get an extension, and then go for a GE, running on a platform of his new deal (which will be much the same as Theresa May's). It might work, but he has to shrug off his broken promises and accusations of betrayal from the Spartans and Farage, keep the Conservative Party sufficiently united, and force it to be more realistic and sane than it has been so far this year. That certainly won't be plain sailing.
As for limits to free speech, inciting violence is where the line should be drawn. And no further.
I think the biggest threat facing the EU is dealing with authoritarians and proto fascist movements, like we see in Poland, Hungary and Italy. I think that will be more of the test than the ever closer union issue.
I think a United States of Europe is the logical outcome of modernity and peace. Much like the USA, states would be allowed individual identities, but benefit from the cooperation between those states. Yes, the history is older, and the fights between European states longer, but I think it is an admirable aim and a likely one.
I`m a liberal. Limits of free speech only in exceptional circumstances to prevent harm to other. You shouldn`t shout fire in a crowded theatre when you know there is no fire.
That's just brilliant!
I'm still deeply concerned as someone desperately wants a Dem win.
https://sporteology.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Wayne-Rooney-house.jpg
On topic, I think Boris has played a blinder in purely political terms, by convincing us all including the ever-sceptical DUP that he was Mr No Deal, scaring us shitless with the prospect, and then offering a deal. A super-Remainer colleague who detests Boris says "I can't believe that I'm actually hoping he gets his deal to leave the EU through, but he's somehow persuaded me that it's the least bad alternative".
The question is whether he's resisted the temptation to say different things to different people. We'll know in a few days, so no need to speculate.
Which is the only time that ever counts with EU negotiations.
If Varadkar says it there's an arrangement that is good enough for Ireland, Barnier will have to say "so be it" - through gritted teeth.
I fail to see what Trump voters in the Midwestern and Southern swing states Warren is going to win over? Biden might win over a few though.
To close: If Labour can be returned by its decent rational members to its decent centre-left roots with a decent, economically literate Leader, my quid pro quo would be to vote Remain, with an active and vigourous approach to reform the EU. Make ourselves as influential and important to the EU as France or Germany. Mold it into what we want.
(And I'll put the EU flag back on my number-plate)
I think Warren is best placed to capitalise off the recent health scare with Bernie and Biden's bidenness. She can placate the left with good enough policy and the party elites will accept her as one of them, which they would never do for Bernie.
Her biggest issue at the moment is African American support for Joe Biden; although she has made headway recently. I think if she wins Iowa and NH and has a good second in the Carolinas, that she will win the nomination in the end.
But, shocking as this may be, the overblown fear-mongering of Osborne and the dread doomsaying of Farage did not, in fact, persuade me of anything except their predilection for exaggeration and preference for slogans over reason.
But they're not the only ones hoping for a deal, and the good vibe it brings. If a deal happens, the EU will want to take some credit for it. Any tweets from Tusk or Barnier, etc, should be seen in that light.