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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The mood changes on Brexit but the devil will be in the detail

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  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    timmo said:

    What is really clear this morning is the total panic in remainers ...
    This surely cant be happening....
    Can it?

    I'm a Remainer. If there's a general election before Brexit I will vote for Revoke.

    This morning I am cautiously optimistic and slightly relieved.

    What's this panic you speak of?
    I feel a cautious optimism, but we have to remember it is Boris Johnson who is PM; a man unprecedentedly unsuited to the position with as much experience of negotiation as my pet cat. Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.
    The thing is that the threat of No Deal is now starting to have direct political consequences for Varadkar. In the €1.2bn set aside by Ireland, an extra €100m is for extra unemployment benefits with no deal. Doesn't sound much in absolute terms, adjust for Ireland's population, and that is a big deal and implies the government is expecting a significant spike in unemployment in its event. Given Varadkar has based his whole approach on the man who can beat the Brits, that might not end too well for him (especially given Enda Kelly had a more constructive approach).
    Your post was quite good until you got to the xenophobic anti-Irish anti-Varadkar bit, which by the way, is complete cobblers.
    Which bit of saying No Deal is bad for Ireland and has political consequences for Varadkar is “xenophobic anti-Irish anti-Varadkar”?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.

    Yeah, that seems not to be noticed by the headbangers but it seems pretty unarguable on the turn of events.
    Not quite true. We have no idea of how the actual and real threat of no deal would have had on both the UK and the EU negotiations to this point in time.

    With all due respect you’re not a dispassionate observer.

    Please point out anyone that is. Alastair, like me, thinks the whole thing is bonkers, but is prepared to settle for a less damaging compromise. I see little from leave orientated posters on here that wish to compromise at all. The position of most leavers has been to take a very marginal victory (52%) and treat it as though they had the support of 90%, when in reality they probably have lost the small lead they once had.

    If they get a any type of Brexit they should be grateful and push for a fuller fat version if they think the electorate has the stomach for, or is gullible enough to swallow it.
    I voted to leave, and yet I’m far from an ill-educated, illiterate, xenophobic, racist, head banging deathcult member - or any of the other favourite insults levied on here to some.

    All of my friends and acquaintances who voted leave are also none of these things.

    Likewise my friends who voted Remian are not UK hating, federalist traitors.

    I’m completely for compromise. But compromise has been torpedoed by extremists on both sides. Added to which the search for compromise is, well compromised, by those wearing such anti-Boris coloured spectacles they’re blinded in their hatred and fail to accept compromise when it comes along.

    All leavers aren’t nutcases. And all remainers aren’t conspiring traitors. When we finally realise this and accept it then we might start to put this country back together.
    I look upon your words, they're mighty, and do not despair.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.

    Yeah, that seems not to be noticed by the headbangers but it seems pretty unarguable on the turn of events.
    Not quite true. We have no idea of how the actual and real threat of no deal would have had on both the UK and the EU negotiations to this point in time.

    With all due respect you’re not a dispassionate observer.

    Please point out anyone that is. Alastair, like me, thinks the whole thing is bonkers, but is prepared to settle for a less damaging compromise. I see little from leave orientated posters on here that wish to compromise at all. The position of most leavers has been to take a very marginal victory (52%) and treat it as though they had the support of 90%, when in reality they probably have lost the small lead they once had.

    If they get a any type of Brexit they should be grateful and push for a fuller fat version if they think the electorate has the stomach for, or is gullible enough to swallow it.
    I voted to leave, and yet I’m far from an ill-educated, illiterate, xenophobic, racist, head banging deathcult member - or any of the other favourite insults levied on here to some.

    All of my friends and acquaintances who voted leave are also none of these things.

    Likewise my friends who voted Remian are not UK hating, federalist traitors.

    I’m completely for compromise. But compromise has been torpedoed by extremists on both sides. Added to which the search for compromise is, well compromised, by those wearing such anti-Boris coloured spectacles they’re blinded in their hatred and fail to accept compromise when it comes along.

    All leavers aren’t nutcases. And all remainers aren’t conspiring traitors. When we finally realise this and accept it then we might start to put this country back together.
    Are you an any out is better than in leaver?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    The silence from Downing Street, normally so noisy, is the main focus of my attention just now. It doesn’t have a line to take yet because it doesn’t know who it is taking on yet. The vacuum has been filled by the Irish perspective on the discussions.

    When Boris Johnson or Dominic Cummings eventually break cover, we will know much more.

    At what stage in the next week do people think that the DUP and ERG will be told what any proposed deal involves? And what about the rest of us?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,724
    Charles said:

    timmo said:

    What is really clear this morning is the total panic in remainers ...
    This surely cant be happening....
    Can it?

    I'm a Remainer. If there's a general election before Brexit I will vote for Revoke.

    This morning I am cautiously optimistic and slightly relieved.

    What's this panic you speak of?
    I feel a cautious optimism, but we have to remember it is Boris Johnson who is PM; a man unprecedentedly unsuited to the position with as much experience of negotiation as my pet cat. Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.
    Keeping his marriage alive as long as he did must have involved some negotiation...
    Or a wife willing to be a doormat.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    All informed journalist opinion agrees something big shifted yesterday. The Irish are publicly very chipper about it. There is complete Radio silence from the British end. We know Barnier/Barclay talks sre scheduled this morning to decide whether to go into tge tunnell or not. Arlene Foster's sporting tweet may have been entirely innocent or very obviously coded. We also know this wasn't spontanious as Diwning Street have been hawking a letter of support round Business for day's in advance.

    So what can we deduce ? 1. Boris has made his big move 2. It's not implausible enough to have been instantly blown up. 2. It's implausible enough to have triggered 12 + hours of behind the scenes British hagling.

    What does it look like ? We don't know but hidden in plain sight is Boris is hardening the future relationship to buy ERG support but softening the NI arrangements to buy EU support. Which leaves us with how far under the bus the DUP are prepared to be thrown. And hiw repelled Labour MPs are by the hardness of the PD compared to May's.

    We talk of three dimensional Chess but this is three dimensional tight rope walking where you can fall up as well as down. Everything in the current House of Commons that buts extra support repels someone else. But it's slso Chemistry as well as Physics.

    Just Boris breaking up the union to get Brexit, NI under the bus and Scotland will follow.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.

    Yeah, that seems not to be noticed by the headbangers but it seems pretty unarguable on the turn of events.
    Not quite true. We have no idea of how the actual and real threat of no deal would have had on both the UK and the EU negotiations to this point in time.

    With all due respect you’re not a dispassionate observer.

    Please point out anyone that is. Alastair, like me, thinks the whole thing is bonkers, but is prepared to settle for a less damaging compromise. I see little from leave orientated posters on here that wish to compromise at all. The position of most leavers has been to take a very marginal victory (52%) and treat it as though they had the support of 90%, when in reality they probably have lost the small lead they once had.

    If they get a any type of Brexit they should be grateful and push for a fuller fat version if they think the electorate has the stomach for, or is gullible enough to swallow it.
    I voted to leave, and yet I’m far from an ill-educated, illiterate, xenophobic, racist, head banging deathcult member - or any of the other favourite insults levied on here to some.

    All of my friends and acquaintances who voted leave are also none of these things.

    Likewise my friends who voted Remian are not UK hating, federalist traitors.

    I’m completely for compromise. But compromise has been torpedoed by extremists on both sides. Added to which the search for compromise is, well compromised, by those wearing such anti-Boris coloured spectacles they’re blinded in their hatred and fail to accept compromise when it comes along.

    All leavers aren’t nutcases. And all remainers aren’t conspiring traitors. When we finally realise this and accept it then we might start to put this country back together.
    Yeah. Right.

    The problem is this. All those well-educated, literate, woke people who campaigned for Leave decided that it was acceptable to fall in behind a campaign of xenophobic lies in order to secure their malign reactionary fantasy. You don't get to do that and then ask to have the salt passed as if nothing happened.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    One point worth noting: the DUP have very little room for manoeuvre. They received no support at all in Northern Ireland for their position on the last Boris Johnson doodle. It's going to be hard for them to make further concessions.

    Not sure I understand

    Assuming the WA is not possible and No Deal is unpalatable, wouldn’t any move be a compromise towards the EU position (although further away from the EU than the WA). Therefore the DUP should gather more support by backing it vs No Deal
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.

    Yeah, that seems not to be noticed by the headbangers but it seems pretty unarguable on the turn of events.
    Not quite true. We have no idea of how the actual and real threat of no deal would have had on both the UK and the EU negotiations to this point in time.

    With all due respect you’re not a dispassionate observer.

    Please point out anyone that is. Alastair, like me, thinks the whole thing is bonkers, but is prepared to settle for a less damaging compromise. I see little from leave orientated posters on here that wish to compromise at all. The position of most leavers has been to take a very marginal victory (52%) and treat it as though they had the support of 90%, when in reality they probably have lost the small lead they once had.

    If they get a any type of Brexit they should be grateful and push for a fuller fat version if they think the electorate has the stomach for, or is gullible enough to swallow it.
    I voted to leave, and yet I’m far from an ill-educated, illiterate, xenophobic, racist, head banging deathcult member - or any of the other favourite insults levied on here to some.

    All of my friends and acquaintances who voted leave are also none of these things.

    Likewise my friends who voted Remian are not UK hating, federalist traitors.

    I’m completely for compromise. But compromise has been torpedoed by extremists on both sides. Added to which the search for compromise is, well compromised, by those wearing such anti-Boris coloured spectacles they’re blinded in their hatred and fail to accept compromise when it comes along.

    All leavers aren’t nutcases. And all remainers aren’t conspiring traitors. When we finally realise this and accept it then we might start to put this country back together.
    What were your reasons for voting Leave?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    AndyJS said:

    I'd be amazed if we have another referendum after the divisiveness of the previous one. 95% won't happen IMO.

    I agree. Laid it for 2019 very confidently. Would do so again if a Ref2 in 2020 market was to be put up. It's not happening.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    kle4 said:

    Mr. grss, pretty sure the rise of PMC (Private Military Companies) is one of Metal Gear Solid 4's plot points.

    Look on the bright side: at least we don't have bipedal nuclear-armed tanks and insane hyper-violent cyborg ninjas.

    That you know of. I love MGS4 - it's a crazy movie with a game attached.
    Not just that bit, but the transcript of the rally is also terrifying.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Chris said:

    At what stage in the next week do people think that the DUP and ERG will be told what any proposed deal involves? And what about the rest of us?

    After they vote for it
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503

    Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.

    Yeah, that seems not to be noticed by the headbangers but it seems pretty unarguable on the turn of events.
    Not quite true. We have no idea of how the actual and real threat of no deal would have had on both the UK and the EU negotiations to this point in time.

    With all due respect you’re not a dispassionate observer.

    Please point out anyone that is. Alastair, like me, thinks the whole thing is bonkers, but is prepared to settle for a less damaging compromise. I see little from leave orientated posters on here that wish to compromise at all. The position of most leavers has been to take a very marginal victory (52%) and treat it as though they had the support of 90%, when in reality they probably have lost the small lead they once had.

    If they get a any type of Brexit they should be grateful and push for a fuller fat version if they think the electorate has the stomach for, or is gullible enough to swallow it.
    I voted to leave, and yet I’m far from an ill-educated, illiterate, xenophobic, racist, head banging deathcult member - or any of the other favourite insults levied on here to some.

    All of my friends and acquaintances who voted leave are also none of these things.

    Likewise my friends who voted Remian are not UK hating, federalist traitors.

    I’m completely for compromise. But compromise has been torpedoed by extremists on both sides. Added to which the search for compromise is, well compromised, by those wearing such anti-Boris coloured spectacles they’re blinded in their hatred and fail to accept compromise when it comes along.

    All leavers aren’t nutcases. And all remainers aren’t conspiring traitors. When we finally realise this and accept it then we might start to put this country back together.
    Yeah. Right.

    The problem is this. All those well-educated, literate, woke people who campaigned for Leave decided that it was acceptable to fall in behind a campaign of xenophobic lies in order to secure their malign reactionary fantasy. You don't get to do that and then ask to have the salt passed as if nothing happened.
    There you go again. Sigh. Whatever floats your boat Mr Meeks.



  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,616
    malcolmg said:

    All informed journalist opinion agrees something big shifted yesterday. The Irish are publicly very chipper about it. There is complete Radio silence from the British end. We know Barnier/Barclay talks sre scheduled this morning to decide whether to go into tge tunnell or not. Arlene Foster's sporting tweet may have been entirely innocent or very obviously coded. We also know this wasn't spontanious as Diwning Street have been hawking a letter of support round Business for day's in advance.

    So what can we deduce ? 1. Boris has made his big move 2. It's not implausible enough to have been instantly blown up. 2. It's implausible enough to have triggered 12 + hours of behind the scenes British hagling.

    What does it look like ? We don't know but hidden in plain sight is Boris is hardening the future relationship to buy ERG support but softening the NI arrangements to buy EU support. Which leaves us with how far under the bus the DUP are prepared to be thrown. And hiw repelled Labour MPs are by the hardness of the PD compared to May's.

    We talk of three dimensional Chess but this is three dimensional tight rope walking where you can fall up as well as down. Everything in the current House of Commons that buts extra support repels someone else. But it's slso Chemistry as well as Physics.

    Just Boris breaking up the union to get Brexit, NI under the bus and Scotland will follow.
    You say that like it's a bad thing, malc?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited October 2019

    Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.

    Yeah, that seems not to be noticed by the headbangers but it seems pretty unarguable on the turn of events.
    Not quite true. We have no idea of how the actual and real threat of no deal would have had on both the UK and the EU negotiations to this point in time.

    With all due respect you’re not a dispassionate observer.

    Please point out anyone that is. Alastair, like me, thinks the whole thing is bonkers, but is prepared to settle for a less damaging compromise. I see little from leave orientated posters on here that wish to compromise at all. The position of most leavers has been to take a very marginal victory (52%) and treat it as though they had the support of 90%, when in reality they probably have lost the small lead they once had.

    If they get a any type of Brexit they should be grateful and push for a fuller fat version if they think the electorate has the stomach for, or is gullible enough to swallow it.
    I voted to leave, and yet I’m far from an ill-educated, illiterate, xenophobic, racist, head banging deathcult member - or any of the other favourite insults levied on here to some.

    All of my friends and acquaintances who voted leave are also none of these things.

    Likewise my friends who voted Remian are not UK hating, federalist traitors.

    I’m completely for compromise. But compromise has been torpedoed by extremists on both sides. Added to which the search for compromise is, well compromised, by those wearing such anti-Boris coloured spectacles they’re blinded in their hatred and fail to accept compromise when it comes along.

    All leavers aren’t nutcases. And all remainers aren’t conspiring traitors. When we finally realise this and accept it then we might start to put this country back together.
    Yeah. Right.

    The problem is this. All those well-educated, literate, woke people who campaigned for Leave decided that it was acceptable to fall in behind a campaign of xenophobic lies in order to secure their malign reactionary fantasy. You don't get to do that and then ask to have the salt passed as if nothing happened.
    I don''t mind the bring on the chaos ones, at least there is consistency (of which hitching their trailer to a racist campaign is but one factor). The ones that get me are the throw their hands in the air lot who say "how did it ever come to this?"
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    Likewise my friends who voted Remian are not UK hating, federalist traitors.

    Just to be clear, I voted remain and I am a UK hating, federalist traitor.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,616
    Chris said:

    The silence from Downing Street, normally so noisy, is the main focus of my attention just now. It doesn’t have a line to take yet because it doesn’t know who it is taking on yet. The vacuum has been filled by the Irish perspective on the discussions.

    When Boris Johnson or Dominic Cummings eventually break cover, we will know much more.

    At what stage in the next week do people think that the DUP and ERG will be told what any proposed deal involves? And what about the rest of us?
    When a Final Deal comes out the Tunnel of Love.....
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    The DUP should have backed a soft Brexit when they had a lot of influence on the government in 2017 .

    Instead they sucked upto the ERG .
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    edited October 2019


    Yeah. Right.

    The problem is this. All those well-educated, literate, woke people who campaigned for Leave decided that it was acceptable to fall in behind a campaign of xenophobic lies in order to secure their malign reactionary fantasy. You don't get to do that and then ask to have the salt passed as if nothing happened.

    There you go again. Sigh. Whatever floats your boat Mr Meeks.


    You don't get to say: "awfully sorry about the racism, now forget about it, because Brexit was more important".
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. kle4, aye, there's a ton of cutscenes even for an MGS game.

    The bosses' backstories didn't work as well as the first MGS, though.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    I have relatives who live in Hale. Good luck to her. Brady is affectionately known as 'thicko'. A very wealthy area but I would imagine a very Remain area.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    timmo said:

    What is really clear this morning is the total panic in remainers ...
    This surely cant be happening....
    Can it?

    I'm a Remainer. If there's a general election before Brexit I will vote for Revoke.

    This morning I am cautiously optimistic and slightly relieved.

    What's this panic you speak of?
    I feel a cautious optimism, but we have to remember it is Boris Johnson who is PM; a man unprecedentedly unsuited to the position with as much experience of negotiation as my pet cat. Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.
    Keeping his marriage alive as long as he did must have involved some negotiation...
    Or a wife willing to be a doormat.
    I take it you don’t know Marina Wheeler QC then?
  • One point worth noting: the DUP have very little room for manoeuvre. They received no support at all in Northern Ireland for their position on the last Boris Johnson doodle. It's going to be hard for them to make further concessions.

    I'm feeling a little queasy at the idea of anyone positioning themselves on Boris Johnson's doodle.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798

    Altrincham & Sale West: Remain 61.4%

    Penistone & Stocksbridge: Remain 39.3%

    You can see the attraction of the move.

    Also worth noting that at GE2017 Brady lost vote share, against the national tide for the Conservatives. Clearly a Brexit effect involved.
    I have this as a Labour gain. I'm not sure this move is enough to either allow the Lib Dems to take it from third or to allow Brady to hold on.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    edited October 2019


    Yeah. Right.

    The problem is this. All those well-educated, literate, woke people who campaigned for Leave decided that it was acceptable to fall in behind a campaign of xenophobic lies in order to secure their malign reactionary fantasy. You don't get to do that and then ask to have the salt passed as if nothing happened.

    You don't get to say: "awfully sorry about the racism, now forget about it, because Brexit was more important".<\blockquote>

    You don't get to make up the motivations of everyone who voted leave, regardless of their personal motivations, but that doesnt stop you doing it.

    You even reject any apology or reject any who did object to the things you object about regarding the campaign as if they did not, so your moralising on the point is both pointless and hypocritical, and probably part of your trolling people for fun rather than sincere, which makes your outrage seem very faux. You want a reaction, like a troll, so I dont believe you even mean what you say on xenophobic lies.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    edited October 2019
    Chris Henretty's estimate (https://tinyurl.com/y2om54eu) for Altrincham and Sale West in the EU elections:

    Lib Dem - 9,297 (30.5%)
    Green - 5,502 (18.1%)
    Change UK - 1,073 (3.5%)

    Labour - 3,624 (11.9%)

    Brexit Party - 6,587 (21.6%)
    Conservatives - 3,136 ( 10.3%)
    UKIP - 696 (2.3%)

    Other - 564 (18.5%)

    Total votes - 30,480 (v 52,790 at the 2017 GE)
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.

    Yeah, that seems not to be noticed by the headbangers but it seems pretty unarguable on the turn of events.
    Not quite true. We have no idea of how the actual and real threat of no deal would have had on both the UK and the EU negotiations to this point in time.

    With all due respect you’re not a dispassionate observer.

    Please point out anyone that is. Alastair, like me, thinks the whole thing is bonkers, but is prepared to settle for a less damaging compromise. I see little from leave orientated posters on here that wish to compromise at all. The position of most leavers has been to take a very marginal victory (52%) and treat it as though they had the support of 90%, when in reality they probably have lost the small lead they once had.

    If they get a any type of Brexit they should be grateful and push for a fuller fat version if they think the electorate has the stomach for, or is gullible enough to swallow it.
    I voted to leave, and yet I’m far from an ill-educated, illiterate, xenophobic, racist, head banging deathcult member - or any of the other favourite insults levied on here to some.

    All of my friends and acquaintances who voted leave are also none of these things.

    Likewise my friends who voted Remian are not UK hating, federalist traitors.

    I’m completely for compromise. But compromise has been torpedoed by extremists on both sides. Added to which the search for compromise is, well compromised, by those wearing such anti-Boris coloured spectacles they’re blinded in their hatred and fail to accept compromise when it comes along.

    All leavers aren’t nutcases. And all remainers aren’t conspiring traitors. When we finally realise this and accept it then we might start to put this country back together.
    Yeah. Right.

    The problem is this. All those well-educated, literate, woke people who campaigned for Leave decided that it was acceptable to fall in behind a campaign of xenophobic lies in order to secure their malign reactionary fantasy. You don't get to do that and then ask to have the salt passed as if nothing happened.
    Yeah compromise is for schmucks. Keep the hatred going Al, until they beg forgiveness for stepping out of line... and then spit at the sub ISIS scum for being stupid enough to think that was good enough
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    kle4 said:


    You don't get to make up the motivations of everyone who voted leave, regardless of their personal motivations, but that doesnt stop you doing it.

    Your basic problem is this. Leave campaigned on hosing the NHS with cash and being nasty to foreigners. Now it comes to formulating a future direction to the country out of the victory won on the back of that, it transpires that isn't a very workable proposition.

    But Leavers decided that was a compromise they were willing to make.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    edited October 2019
    Chris said:

    The silence from Downing Street, normally so noisy, is the main focus of my attention just now. It doesn’t have a line to take yet because it doesn’t know who it is taking on yet. The vacuum has been filled by the Irish perspective on the discussions.

    When Boris Johnson or Dominic Cummings eventually break cover, we will know much more.

    At what stage in the next week do people think that the DUP and ERG will be told what any proposed deal involves? And what about the rest of us?
    It will all be done in true Johnson style telling the ERG they will get their unicorns in the PD whilst promising the opposite to keep those who want as close a relationship as possible with the EU in line. Whilst he will ensure whatever it is is best for Johnson.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,616
    kle4 said:

    Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.

    Yeah, that seems not to be noticed by the headbangers but it seems pretty unarguable on the turn of events.
    Very few people will get credit they may deserve should a desl be agreed and approved. Not May for doing bulk of the work, not Boris for getting tweaks, not those forcing Boris to work more for a desl.
    If they are the tweaks that turns May's Deal from the heavist ever Westminster defeat to getting it through the same House, then 1) they ain't tweaks and 2) Boris will get the credit.

    Which Labour will hate. By holding out for a political advantage by opposing May, they will have been the architects of Boris's rise to political glory. Hard not to laugh.....
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380


    Yeah. Right.

    The problem is this. All those well-educated, literate, woke people who campaigned for Leave decided that it was acceptable to fall in behind a campaign of xenophobic lies in order to secure their malign reactionary fantasy. You don't get to do that and then ask to have the salt passed as if nothing happened.

    There you go again. Sigh. Whatever floats your boat Mr Meeks.



    You don't get to say: "awfully sorry about the racism, now forget about it, because Brexit was more important".

    100% right. The leave campaigns hitched their wagons to the racists. My EU friends in the UK universally experienced a sudden uptick in insults on the streets, some even being jostled and pushed for having accents or daring to speak German into their mobile phone and so on.
    This started early in 2016, before the referendum, and continues to this day. The response from most prominent leave campaigners was to ignore is, followed by denial, with a smaller third category of encouragement.

    Personally I'll never forgive any of them.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    isam said:


    Yeah compromise is for schmucks. Keep the hatred going Al, until they beg forgiveness for stepping out of line... and then spit at the sub ISIS scum for being stupid enough to think that was good enough

    Do point out to me the compromises that Leavers think they're making.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,151
    edited October 2019
    As Ian Dale said on Good Morning Britain this morning if the DUP will not vote for the NI backstop, which is still likely to be something Varadkar and the EU demand, then Boris will have to get Labour votes to get a Deal through and that still looks unlikely to me.

    So it remains the case then we need a Tory majority to get a Brexit Deal through the Commons
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,616
    tlg86 said:

    Chris Henretty's estimate (https://tinyurl.com/y2om54eu) for Altrincham and Sale West in the EU elections:

    Lib Dem - 9,297 (30.5%)
    Green - 5,502 (18.1%)
    Change UK - 1,073 (3.5%)

    Labour - 3,624 (11.9%)

    Brexit Party - 6,587 (21.6%)
    Conservatives - 3,136 ( 10.3%)
    UKIP - 696 (2.3%)

    Other - 564 (18.5%)

    Total votes - 30,480 (v 52,790 at the 2017 GE)

    Why does anybody bother analysing the 2019 EU elections? They were a free kick up the arse of each of the UK and EU political class. They were an election we were told would never happen. When they did, they were a chance for voters to have a laugh.

    And they did.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,724
    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    timmo said:

    What is really clear this morning is the total panic in remainers ...
    This surely cant be happening....
    Can it?

    I'm a Remainer. If there's a general election before Brexit I will vote for Revoke.

    This morning I am cautiously optimistic and slightly relieved.

    What's this panic you speak of?
    I feel a cautious optimism, but we have to remember it is Boris Johnson who is PM; a man unprecedentedly unsuited to the position with as much experience of negotiation as my pet cat. Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.
    Keeping his marriage alive as long as he did must have involved some negotiation...
    Or a wife willing to be a doormat.
    I take it you don’t know Marina Wheeler QC then?
    I know a merchant banker who stayed with her husband after he threw her down the stairs causing considerable injuries. Being posh and well educated is no protection from abusive relationships.

    And of course, Boris's marriage has recently failed.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239

    Any deal will involve the UK moving towards the EU position. That is inevitable. However, anything that Johnson brings back will need to be considered carefully by the loons. There is no new knight of Brexit ready to ride to their rescue. Johnson is their last hope. If they destroy him as they destroyed May then they will destroy what it is they claim they want. So I think most will vote for any Deal he presents. I also think the Kinnock Labour MPs will, too. It will therefore pass - just. The key battle now is the final deal we get post-transition.

    I agree that it could pass on the votes of Kinnockites.

    But if it does, the Lib Dems will slaughter Labour at the following election. There will be a lot of angry Remainers looking for their chance to get revenge via the ballot box, and they’re not going to vote for a party led by a lifelong Eurosceptic and whose moderates enabled the deal to pass. Jess Phillips and Stella Creasy may be great, but a vote for Labour doesn’t get them anywhere nearer power.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited October 2019

    kle4 said:

    Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.

    Yeah, that seems not to be noticed by the headbangers but it seems pretty unarguable on the turn of events.
    Very few people will get credit they may deserve should a desl be agreed and approved. Not May for doing bulk of the work, not Boris for getting tweaks, not those forcing Boris to work more for a desl.
    If they are the tweaks that turns May's Deal from the heavist ever Westminster defeat to getting it through the same House, then 1) they ain't tweaks and 2) Boris will get the credit.

    Which Labour will hate. By holding out for a political advantage by opposing May, they will have been the architects of Boris's rise to political glory. Hard not to laugh.....
    Boris, biggest lay in PB betting history? (Or was that Leaving the EU at 4/1?)
    Getting a deal when we were told time after time ‘Of course, what Johnson wants is No Deal, we all know that...’?

    Surely not
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    Roger said:

    Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.

    Yeah, that seems not to be noticed by the headbangers but it seems pretty unarguable on the turn of events.
    Not quite true.

    Please point out anyone that is. Alastair, like me, thinks the whole thing is bonkers, but is prepared to settle for a less damaging compromise. I see little from leave orientated posters on here that wish to compromise at all

    If they get a any type of Brexit they should be grateful and push for a fuller fat version if they think the electorate has the stomach for, or is gullible enough to swallow it.
    I voted to leave, and yet I’m far from an ill-educated, illiterate, xenophobic, racist, head banging deathcult member - or any of the other favourite insults levied on here to some.

    All of my friends and acquaintances who voted leave are also none of these things.

    Likewise my friends who voted Remian are not UK hating, federalist traitors.

    I’m completely for compromise. But compromise has been torpedoed by extremists on both sides. Added to which the search for compromise is, well compromised, by those wearing such anti-Boris coloured spectacles they’re blinded in their hatred and fail to accept compromise when it comes along.

    All leavers aren’t nutcases. And all remainers aren’t conspiring traitors. When we finally realise this and accept it then we might start to put this country back together.
    What were your reasons for voting Leave?
    Purely democratic.

    I can’t reconcile being a member of the EU to maintaining adequate and traditionally British checks on democratic accountability. This is especially difficult for me considering how the EU wants to develop. “Ever closer Union” without recourse frightens me in a historical context.

    Our politics are uniquely different to those on the continent, resulting from both our history and our culture. I’m not saying they’re better. Just different - and incompatible in many ways in how the State and politicians behave are are accountable.

    I don’t care about EU immigration. I have German family and am partly German myself.

    The fact that some voted leave because they are Mr Meeks favourite stereotype is immaterial for me. We all vote for our own reasons.

    I’m sure some people voted to remain as they want to see the UK dissolved into a EU superstate. Doesn’t mean all remainers think that - or that this mindset in any way undermines the reasons why others voted remain.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    malcolmg said:

    All informed journalist opinion agrees something big shifted yesterday. The Irish are publicly very chipper about it. There is complete Radio silence from the British end. We know Barnier/Barclay talks sre scheduled this morning to decide whether to go into tge tunnell or not. Arlene Foster's sporting tweet may have been entirely innocent or very obviously coded. We also know this wasn't spontanious as Diwning Street have been hawking a letter of support round Business for day's in advance.

    So what can we deduce ? 1. Boris has made his big move 2. It's not implausible enough to have been instantly blown up. 2. It's implausible enough to have triggered 12 + hours of behind the scenes British hagling.

    What does it look like ? We don't know but hidden in plain sight is Boris is hardening the future relationship to buy ERG support but softening the NI arrangements to buy EU support. Which leaves us with how far under the bus the DUP are prepared to be thrown. And hiw repelled Labour MPs are by the hardness of the PD compared to May's.

    We talk of three dimensional Chess but this is three dimensional tight rope walking where you can fall up as well as down. Everything in the current House of Commons that buts extra support repels someone else. But it's slso Chemistry as well as Physics.

    Just Boris breaking up the union to get Brexit, NI under the bus and Scotland will follow.
    You say that like it's a bad thing, malc?
    Not at all Mark, just what I think he will do. As you know it would suit me. Hard to see why they have let everything revolve around NI in the first place, they should have given NI a take it or leave it choice right at start of negotiations and went from there.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,151

    tlg86 said:

    Chris Henretty's estimate (https://tinyurl.com/y2om54eu) for Altrincham and Sale West in the EU elections:

    Lib Dem - 9,297 (30.5%)
    Green - 5,502 (18.1%)
    Change UK - 1,073 (3.5%)

    Labour - 3,624 (11.9%)

    Brexit Party - 6,587 (21.6%)
    Conservatives - 3,136 ( 10.3%)
    UKIP - 696 (2.3%)

    Other - 564 (18.5%)

    Total votes - 30,480 (v 52,790 at the 2017 GE)

    Why does anybody bother analysing the 2019 EU elections? They were a free kick up the arse of each of the UK and EU political class. They were an election we were told would never happen. When they did, they were a chance for voters to have a laugh.

    And they did.
    Mind you had the Tories not replaced May with Boris then post the March extension I expect the Brexit Party would still be leading the Tories.

    The European elections are also a good guide to the LDs best target seats too
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,724

    Altrincham & Sale West: Remain 61.4%

    Penistone & Stocksbridge: Remain 39.3%

    You can see the attraction of the move.

    Also worth noting that at GE2017 Brady lost vote share, against the national tide for the Conservatives. Clearly a Brexit effect involved.
    I have this as a Labour gain. I'm not sure this move is enough to either allow the Lib Dems to take it from third or to allow Brady to hold on.
    It strikes me as just the sort of place winnable from third place by the Lib Dems. It is a good target seat. The Jezzgasm has unwound. I cannot see a Labour gain from Tory happening next GE.

    I can see the case for voting Labour in a Lab held seat, but outside those a Lab vote is a wasted vote.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,616

    isam said:


    Yeah compromise is for schmucks. Keep the hatred going Al, until they beg forgiveness for stepping out of line... and then spit at the sub ISIS scum for being stupid enough to think that was good enough

    Do point out to me the compromises that Leavers think they're making.
    Well obviously we aren't remaining, which is the only "compromise" you want to hear......
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,151
    edited October 2019

    Any deal will involve the UK moving towards the EU position. That is inevitable. However, anything that Johnson brings back will need to be considered carefully by the loons. There is no new knight of Brexit ready to ride to their rescue. Johnson is their last hope. If they destroy him as they destroyed May then they will destroy what it is they claim they want. So I think most will vote for any Deal he presents. I also think the Kinnock Labour MPs will, too. It will therefore pass - just. The key battle now is the final deal we get post-transition.

    I agree that it could pass on the votes of Kinnockites.

    But if it does, the Lib Dems will slaughter Labour at the following election. There will be a lot of angry Remainers looking for their chance to get revenge via the ballot box, and they’re not going to vote for a party led by a lifelong Eurosceptic and whose moderates enabled the deal to pass. Jess Phillips and Stella Creasy may be great, but a vote for Labour doesn’t get them anywhere nearer power.
    Yes if Boris gets his Deal through due to votes from Labour MPs, Labour are likely to come third in voteshare at the next general election behind the Tories and Liberal Democrats
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    tlg86 said:

    Chris Henretty's estimate (https://tinyurl.com/y2om54eu) for Altrincham and Sale West in the EU elections:

    Lib Dem - 9,297 (30.5%)
    Green - 5,502 (18.1%)
    Change UK - 1,073 (3.5%)

    Labour - 3,624 (11.9%)

    Brexit Party - 6,587 (21.6%)
    Conservatives - 3,136 ( 10.3%)
    UKIP - 696 (2.3%)

    Other - 564 (18.5%)

    Total votes - 30,480 (v 52,790 at the 2017 GE)

    Why does anybody bother analysing the 2019 EU elections? They were a free kick up the arse of each of the UK and EU political class. They were an election we were told would never happen. When they did, they were a chance for voters to have a laugh.

    And they did.
    Just like the referendum when people gave the political class a kick up the arse for a laugh.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Rebekah Vardy: "Arguing with Coleen Rooney would be as pointless as arguing with a pigeon."

    PB NEEDS BECKY VARDY NOW!!!
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    isam said:


    Yeah compromise is for schmucks. Keep the hatred going Al, until they beg forgiveness for stepping out of line... and then spit at the sub ISIS scum for being stupid enough to think that was good enough

    Do point out to me the compromises that Leavers think they're making.
    Well obviously we aren't remaining, which is the only "compromise" you want to hear......
    A telling reply
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,151

    Altrincham & Sale West: Remain 61.4%

    Penistone & Stocksbridge: Remain 39.3%

    You can see the attraction of the move.

    Also worth noting that at GE2017 Brady lost vote share, against the national tide for the Conservatives. Clearly a Brexit effect involved.
    I have this as a Labour gain. I'm not sure this move is enough to either allow the Lib Dems to take it from third or to allow Brady to hold on.
    The Tories got 51% in Altrincham and Sale West at the 2017 general election, Labour got 39% and the LDs 8%.

    On current polls Brady will easily be re elected
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,724
    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.

    Yeah, that seems not to be noticed by the headbangers but it seems pretty unarguable on the turn of events.
    Very few people will get credit they may deserve should a desl be agreed and approved. Not May for doing bulk of the work, not Boris for getting tweaks, not those forcing Boris to work more for a desl.
    If they are the tweaks that turns May's Deal from the heavist ever Westminster defeat to getting it through the same House, then 1) they ain't tweaks and 2) Boris will get the credit.

    Which Labour will hate. By holding out for a political advantage by opposing May, they will have been the architects of Boris's rise to political glory. Hard not to laugh.....
    Boris, biggest lay in PB betting history? (Or was that Leaving the EU at 4/1?)
    Getting a deal when we were told time after time ‘Of course, what Johnson wants is No Deal, we all know that...’?

    Surely not
    The Benn Act has been quite effective in forcing BoZo to negotiate. Leavers should acknowledge that.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Speaking of which what are the bets Becky vs Coleen - which is the leaver and which is the remainer?

    I would put Coleen as the remainer and Vardy as the leaver.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    HYUFD said:

    As Ian Dale said on Good Morning Britain this morning if the DUP will not vote for the NI backstop, which is still likely to be something Varadkar and the EU demand, then Boris will have to get Labour votes to get a Deal through and that still looks unlikely to me.

    So it remains the case then we need a Tory majority to get a Brexit Deal through the Commons


    But we will have left on 31/10 do or die no extension.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited October 2019

    isam said:


    Yeah compromise is for schmucks. Keep the hatred going Al, until they beg forgiveness for stepping out of line... and then spit at the sub ISIS scum for being stupid enough to think that was good enough

    Do point out to me the compromises that Leavers think they're making.
    Letting Theresa May the Remainer take charge of the negotiations was one. Accepting any deal our PM agreed is another. Not sure if failing to respond in kind to relentless playground name calling from people who ought to know better is a compromise or just self control, but there is that too.

    And the Remain compromises? Allowing us to leave isn’t one by the way
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    Roger said:

    Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.

    Yeah, that seems not to be noticed by the headbangers but it seems pretty unarguable on the turn of events.
    Not quite true.

    Please point out anyone that is. Alastair, like me, thinks the whole thing is bonkers, but is prepared to settle for a less damaging compromise. I see little from leave orientated posters on here that wish to compromise at all

    If they get a any type of Brexit they should be grateful and push for a fuller fat version if they think the electorate has the stomach for, or is gullible enough to swallow it.
    I vo
    Likewise my friends who voted Remian are not UK hating, federalist traitors.

    I’m completely for compromise. But compromise has been torpedoed by extremists on both sides. Added to which the search for compromise is, well compromised, by those wearing such anti-Boris coloured spectacles they’re blinded in their hatred and fail to accept compromise when it comes along.

    All leavers aren’t nutcases. And all remainers aren’t conspiring traitors. When we finally realise this and accept it then we might start to put this country back together.
    What were your reasons for voting Leave?
    Purely democratic.

    I can’t reconcile being a member of the EU to maintaining adequate and traditionally British checks on democratic accountability. This is especially difficult for me considering how the EU wants to develop. “Ever closer Union” without recourse frightens me in a historical context.

    Our politics are uniquely different to those on the continent, resulting from both our history and our culture. I’m not saying they’re better. Just different - and incompatible in many ways in how the State and politicians behave are are accountable.

    I don’t care about EU immigration. I have German family and am partly German myself.

    The fact that some voted leave because they are Mr Meeks favourite stereotype is immaterial for me. We all vote for our own reasons.

    I’m sure some people voted to remain as they want to see the UK dissolved into a EU superstate. Doesn’t mean all remainers think that - or that this mindset in any way undermines the reasons why others voted remain.

    Would you have any flavour of Leave vs staying in?
  • HYUFD said:

    Altrincham & Sale West: Remain 61.4%

    Penistone & Stocksbridge: Remain 39.3%

    You can see the attraction of the move.

    Also worth noting that at GE2017 Brady lost vote share, against the national tide for the Conservatives. Clearly a Brexit effect involved.
    I have this as a Labour gain. I'm not sure this move is enough to either allow the Lib Dems to take it from third or to allow Brady to hold on.
    The Tories got 51% in Altrincham and Sale West at the 2017 general election, Labour got 39% and the LDs 8%.

    On current polls Brady will easily be re elected
    Wouldn't be so sure

    True blue areas like Alty voted Green in the council elections amazing given its history of always voting Tory
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,151
    edited October 2019
    malcolmg said:

    All informed journalist opinion agrees something big shifted yesterday. The Irish are publicly very chipper about it. There is complete Radio silence from the British end. We know Barnier/Barclay talks sre scheduled this morning to decide whether to go into tge tunnell or not. Arlene Foster's sporting tweet may have been entirely innocent or very obviously coded. We also know this wasn't spontanious as Diwning Street have been hawking a letter of support round Business for day's in advance.

    So what can we deduce ? 1. Boris has made his big move 2. It's not implausible enough to have been instantly blown up. 2. It's implausible enough to have triggered 12 + hours of behind the scenes British hagling.

    What does it look like ? We don't know but hidden in plain sight is Boris is hardening the future relationship to buy ERG support but softening the NI arrangements to buy EU support. Which leaves us with how far under the bus the DUP are prepared to be thrown. And hiw repelled Labour MPs are by the hardness of the PD compared to May's.

    We talk of three dimensional Chess but this is three dimensional tight rope walking where you can fall up as well as down. Everything in the current House of Commons that buts extra support repels someone else. But it's slso Chemistry as well as Physics.

    Just Boris breaking up the union to get Brexit, NI under the bus and Scotland will follow.
    If Boris gets a Deal through then the Union is safe.

    Polls only show Northern Irish voters backing uniting with the Republic in the event if No Deal and a hard border with Ireland and the only polls showing Yes ahead in Scotland in any indyref2 are with a No Deal scenario too.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914
    kinabalu said:

    AndyJS said:

    I'd be amazed if we have another referendum after the divisiveness of the previous one. 95% won't happen IMO.

    I agree. Laid it for 2019 very confidently. Would do so again if a Ref2 in 2020 market was to be put up. It's not happening.
    How else to lance the boil.
    After that I'd agree about any future ones.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    tlg86 said:

    Chris Henretty's estimate (https://tinyurl.com/y2om54eu) for Altrincham and Sale West in the EU elections:

    Lib Dem - 9,297 (30.5%)
    Green - 5,502 (18.1%)
    Change UK - 1,073 (3.5%)

    Labour - 3,624 (11.9%)

    Brexit Party - 6,587 (21.6%)
    Conservatives - 3,136 ( 10.3%)
    UKIP - 696 (2.3%)

    Other - 564 (18.5%)

    Total votes - 30,480 (v 52,790 at the 2017 GE)

    Interesting. They have 4 grammar schools in the area. It's a constituency very much like Cheadle but probably wealthier and less rural. The Lib Dems must be in with a very good chance.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Foxy said:

    Altrincham & Sale West: Remain 61.4%

    Penistone & Stocksbridge: Remain 39.3%

    You can see the attraction of the move.

    Also worth noting that at GE2017 Brady lost vote share, against the national tide for the Conservatives. Clearly a Brexit effect involved.
    I have this as a Labour gain. I'm not sure this move is enough to either allow the Lib Dems to take it from third or to allow Brady to hold on.
    It strikes me as just the sort of place winnable from third place by the Lib Dems. It is a good target seat. The Jezzgasm has unwound. I cannot see a Labour gain from Tory happening next GE.

    I can see the case for voting Labour in a Lab held seat, but outside those a Lab vote is a wasted vote.
    In the seats where the Lib Dems are second to the Tories certainly, Angela Smith MP after the next election though is one hell of a long shot. Heart over head there.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    isam said:

    isam said:


    Yeah compromise is for schmucks. Keep the hatred going Al, until they beg forgiveness for stepping out of line... and then spit at the sub ISIS scum for being stupid enough to think that was good enough

    Do point out to me the compromises that Leavers think they're making.
    Letting Theresa May the Remainer take charge of the negotiations was one. Accepting any deal our PM agreed is another. Not sure if failing to respond in kind to relentless playground name calling from people who ought to know better is a compromise or just self control, but there is that too.

    And the Remain compromises? Allowing us to leave isn’t one by the way
    Elevating Theresa May to PM was a decision taken by Conservative MPs and nobody else had any input. She then delivered a deal which was hard Brexit, and that still wasn't good enough for the ERG.
    If you think any of that was a compromise, you need a padded room and some thorazine.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited October 2019
    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.

    Yeah, that seems not to be noticed by the headbangers but it seems pretty unarguable on the turn of events.
    Very few people will get credit they may deserve should a desl be agreed and approved. Not May for doing bulk of the work, not Boris for getting tweaks, not those forcing Boris to work more for a desl.
    If they are the tweaks that turns May's Deal from the heavist ever Westminster defeat to getting it through the same House, then 1) they ain't tweaks and 2) Boris will get the credit.

    Which Labour will hate. By holding out for a political advantage by opposing May, they will have been the architects of Boris's rise to political glory. Hard not to laugh.....
    Boris, biggest lay in PB betting history? (Or was that Leaving the EU at 4/1?)
    Getting a deal when we were told time after time ‘Of course, what Johnson wants is No Deal, we all know that...’?

    Surely not
    The Benn Act has been quite effective in forcing BoZo to negotiate. Leavers should acknowledge that.
    If it provides Remain obsessives with cold comfort on our way out to let them claim some small victory, I’m happy to agree to whatever they like. I just want the result of the referendum implemented.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,679
    edited October 2019
    TOPPING said:

    Rebekah Vardy: "Arguing with Coleen Rooney would be as pointless as arguing with a pigeon."

    PB NEEDS BECKY VARDY NOW!!!

    PB says ‘chat shit get banged’
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Noo said:

    isam said:

    isam said:


    Yeah compromise is for schmucks. Keep the hatred going Al, until they beg forgiveness for stepping out of line... and then spit at the sub ISIS scum for being stupid enough to think that was good enough

    Do point out to me the compromises that Leavers think they're making.
    Letting Theresa May the Remainer take charge of the negotiations was one. Accepting any deal our PM agreed is another. Not sure if failing to respond in kind to relentless playground name calling from people who ought to know better is a compromise or just self control, but there is that too.

    And the Remain compromises? Allowing us to leave isn’t one by the way
    Elevating Theresa May to PM was a decision taken by Conservative MPs and nobody else had any input. She then delivered a deal which was hard Brexit, and that still wasn't good enough for the ERG.
    If you think any of that was a compromise, you need a padded room and some thorazine.
    Ah yes. The ‘you must be insane if you disagree with me’ card.

    One day soon that will be as offensive as a racist joke, but for now I’ll just smile to myself 😊
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,724
    TOPPING said:

    Speaking of which what are the bets Becky vs Coleen - which is the leaver and which is the remainer?

    I would put Coleen as the remainer and Vardy as the leaver.

    Quite possibly. Merseyside was pretty solidly Remain.

    Quite apart from the #Wagathachristie element, the fight is an interesting insight into British class structure. The original generation of 2006 Wags regard Rebekah Vardy as a lower class upstart wannabee. That is the root of what has transpired.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    isam said:

    isam said:


    Yeah compromise is for schmucks. Keep the hatred going Al, until they beg forgiveness for stepping out of line... and then spit at the sub ISIS scum for being stupid enough to think that was good enough

    Do point out to me the compromises that Leavers think they're making.
    Letting Theresa May the Remainer take charge of the negotiations was one. Accepting any deal our PM agreed is another. Not sure if failing to respond in kind to relentless playground name calling from people who ought to know better is a compromise or just self control, but there is that too.

    And the Remain compromises? Allowing us to leave isn’t one by the way
    That was the Tory Party's fault. Who contested the leadership? Leadsome for a bit, and then....no one.

    Why didn't the Party put up Francois, elect him by a thumping majority, and then they would have had their leaver doing the negotiations.

    It was all democratically done. That is our party system. You going on about putting a "remainer" in charge is as non-sensical as people bleating about the Cons/Lab being elected with only 35% +/- of the vote. It is how our democratic system works.

    You would rather that time was frozen in June 2016, that referendum was the only valid demonstration of democracy, everything that everyone said right then should be held against them for ever more.

    You are ignoring the rich, all-encompassing, frustrating (parliamentary as well as direct) democracy that we live with.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited October 2019
    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    isam said:


    Yeah compromise is for schmucks. Keep the hatred going Al, until they beg forgiveness for stepping out of line... and then spit at the sub ISIS scum for being stupid enough to think that was good enough

    Do point out to me the compromises that Leavers think they're making.
    Letting Theresa May the Remainer take charge of the negotiations was one. Accepting any deal our PM agreed is another. Not sure if failing to respond in kind to relentless playground name calling from people who ought to know better is a compromise or just self control, but there is that too.

    And the Remain compromises? Allowing us to leave isn’t one by the way
    That was the Tory Party's fault. Who contested the leadership? Leadsome for a bit, and then....no one.

    Why didn't the Party put up Francois, elect him by a thumping majority, and then they would have had their leaver doing the negotiations.

    It was all democratically done. That is our party system. You going on about putting a "remainer" in charge is as non-sensical as people bleating about the Cons/Lab being elected with only 35% +/- of the vote. It is how our democratic system works.

    You would rather that time was frozen in June 2016, that referendum was the only valid demonstration of democracy, everything that everyone said right then should be held against them for ever more.

    You are ignoring the rich, all-encompassing, frustrating (parliamentary as well as direct) democracy that we live with.
    Calm down dear. I’m just saying it was a compromise, not complaining.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    isam said:

    Noo said:

    isam said:

    isam said:


    Yeah compromise is for schmucks. Keep the hatred going Al, until they beg forgiveness for stepping out of line... and then spit at the sub ISIS scum for being stupid enough to think that was good enough

    Do point out to me the compromises that Leavers think they're making.
    Letting Theresa May the Remainer take charge of the negotiations was one. Accepting any deal our PM agreed is another. Not sure if failing to respond in kind to relentless playground name calling from people who ought to know better is a compromise or just self control, but there is that too.

    And the Remain compromises? Allowing us to leave isn’t one by the way
    Elevating Theresa May to PM was a decision taken by Conservative MPs and nobody else had any input. She then delivered a deal which was hard Brexit, and that still wasn't good enough for the ERG.
    If you think any of that was a compromise, you need a padded room and some thorazine.
    Ah yes. The ‘you must be insane if you disagree with me’ card.

    One day soon that will be as offensive as a racist joke, but for now I’ll just smile to myself 😊
    Ok, we'll agree a leaver-style compromise. We'll agree that I won't call you insane, but in return I get to call you insane ;)
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.

    Yeah, that seems not to be noticed by the headbangers but it seems pretty unarguable on the turn of events.
    And wasn’t it only a few days ago that Cummings was briefing that if the EU didn’t like Boris’s original proposals he would just walk away, that would be it, no negotiations blah, blah? That seems to have been more piss and wind.

    Anyway, all this cautious rejoicing is a bit premature, no? There isn’t a deal yet. Fingers crossed.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,151
    edited October 2019

    HYUFD said:

    Altrincham & Sale West: Remain 61.4%

    Penistone & Stocksbridge: Remain 39.3%

    You can see the attraction of the move.

    Also worth noting that at GE2017 Brady lost vote share, against the national tide for the Conservatives. Clearly a Brexit effect involved.
    I have this as a Labour gain. I'm not sure this move is enough to either allow the Lib Dems to take it from third or to allow Brady to hold on.
    The Tories got 51% in Altrincham and Sale West at the 2017 general election, Labour got 39% and the LDs 8%.

    On current polls Brady will easily be re elected
    Wouldn't be so sure

    True blue areas like Alty voted Green in the council elections amazing given its history of always voting Tory
    The strongest Tory wards in the seat are in Bowden, Hale, St Marys and Timperley not in Altrincham.

    Indeed the lowest Tory voteshare of the wards that make up the Altrincham and Sale West constituency in the 2019 Trafford local elections came in Altrincham itself
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Cyclefree said:

    Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.

    Yeah, that seems not to be noticed by the headbangers but it seems pretty unarguable on the turn of events.
    And wasn’t it only a few days ago that Cummings was briefing that if the EU didn’t like Boris’s original proposals he would just walk away, that would be it, no negotiations blah, blah? That seems to have been more piss and wind.

    Anyway, all this cautious rejoicing is a bit premature, no? There isn’t a deal yet. Fingers crossed.
    I like the idea of cautious rejoicing. That's probably the most British thing that I've heard of since the referendum result.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited October 2019
    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    isam said:


    Yeah compromise is for schmucks. Keep the hatred going Al, until they beg forgiveness for stepping out of line... and then spit at the sub ISIS scum for being stupid enough to think that was good enough

    Do point out to me the compromises that Leavers think they're making.
    Letting Theresa May the Remainer take charge of the negotiations was one. Accepting any deal our PM agreed is another. Not sure if failing to respond in kind to relentless playground name calling from people who ought to know better is a compromise or just self control, but there is that too.

    And the Remain compromises? Allowing us to leave isn’t one by the way
    That was the Tory Party's fault. Who contested the leadership? Leadsome for a bit, and then....no one.

    Why didn't the Party put up Francois, elect him by a thumping majority, and then they would have had their leaver doing the negotiations.

    It was all democratically done. That is our party system. You going on about putting a "remainer" in charge is as non-sensical as people bleating about the Cons/Lab being elected with only 35% +/- of the vote. It is how our democratic system works.

    You would rather that time was frozen in June 2016, that referendum was the only valid demonstration of democracy, everything that everyone said right then should be held against them for ever more.

    You are ignoring the rich, all-encompassing, frustrating (parliamentary as well as direct) democracy that we live with.
    Calm down dear. I’m just saying it was a compromise, not complaining.
    Perfectly calm.

    The point being that there's no point "compromising", as you put it, only to withdraw assent from the agent of that compromise when they, er, compromise. It's not a compromise to put May in charge if you don't allow her to actually compromise when it comes to it.

    Edit: that's enough compromises.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Speaking of which what are the bets Becky vs Coleen - which is the leaver and which is the remainer?

    I would put Coleen as the remainer and Vardy as the leaver.

    Quite possibly. Merseyside was pretty solidly Remain.

    Quite apart from the #Wagathachristie element, the fight is an interesting insight into British class structure. The original generation of 2006 Wags regard Rebekah Vardy as a lower class upstart wannabee. That is the root of what has transpired.
    That's funny! Coleen lives in Prestbury. Couldn't be much further removed from Merseyside.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,724
    Cyclefree said:

    Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.

    Yeah, that seems not to be noticed by the headbangers but it seems pretty unarguable on the turn of events.
    And wasn’t it only a few days ago that Cummings was briefing that if the EU didn’t like Boris’s original proposals he would just walk away, that would be it, no negotiations blah, blah? That seems to have been more piss and wind.

    Anyway, all this cautious rejoicing is a bit premature, no? There isn’t a deal yet. Fingers crossed.
    What comes out will be the original EU proposal of a NI only Backstop IMO.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited October 2019
    Noo said:

    isam said:

    Noo said:

    isam said:

    isam said:


    Yeah compromise is for schmucks. Keep the hatred going Al, until they beg forgiveness for stepping out of line... and then spit at the sub ISIS scum for being stupid enough to think that was good enough

    Do point out to me the compromises that Leavers think they're making.
    Letting Theresa May the Remainer take charge of the negotiations was one. Accepting any deal our PM agreed is another. Not sure if failing to respond in kind to relentless playground name calling from people who ought to know better is a compromise or just self control, but there is that too.

    And the Remain compromises? Allowing us to leave isn’t one by the way
    Elevating Theresa May to PM was a decision taken by Conservative MPs and nobody else had any input. She then delivered a deal which was hard Brexit, and that still wasn't good enough for the ERG.
    If you think any of that was a compromise, you need a padded room and some thorazine.
    Ah yes. The ‘you must be insane if you disagree with me’ card.

    One day soon that will be as offensive as a racist joke, but for now I’ll just smile to myself 😊
    Ok, we'll agree a leaver-style compromise. We'll agree that I won't call you insane, but in return I get to call you insane ;)
    That would seem to be your idea of compromise, not mine.

    We see these put downs of dissenting voices as mentally ill every day on here. ‘Loons’ is just a throwaway word. Surprising from people who are pretty PC, in these days of raised awareness of mental illness. I’d say without knowing someone’s family history it is quite an appalling put down to use.

    Leavers happy to ‘Slaughter their first born’ to get Brexit done was another pretty despicable analogy I saw on here. Is the satisfaction at winning a point equal to the pain that would cause a leave voter whose child had died?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    All informed journalist opinion agrees something big shifted yesterday. The Irish are publicly very chipper about it. There is complete Radio silence from the British end. We know Barnier/Barclay talks sre scheduled this morning to decide whether to go into tge tunnell or not. Arlene Foster's sporting tweet may have been entirely innocent or very obviously coded. We also know this wasn't spontanious as Diwning Street have been hawking a letter of support round Business for day's in advance.

    So what can we deduce ? 1. Boris has made his big move 2. It's not implausible enough to have been instantly blown up. 2. It's implausible enough to have triggered 12 + hours of behind the scenes British hagling.

    What does it look like ? We don't know but hidden in plain sight is Boris is hardening the future relationship to buy ERG support but softening the NI arrangements to buy EU support. Which leaves us with how far under the bus the DUP are prepared to be thrown. And hiw repelled Labour MPs are by the hardness of the PD compared to May's.

    We talk of three dimensional Chess but this is three dimensional tight rope walking where you can fall up as well as down. Everything in the current House of Commons that buts extra support repels someone else. But it's slso Chemistry as well as Physics.

    Just Boris breaking up the union to get Brexit, NI under the bus and Scotland will follow.
    If Boris gets a Deal through then the Union is safe.

    Polls only show Northern Irish voters backing uniting with the Republic in the event if No Deal and a hard border with Ireland and the only polls showing Yes ahead in Scotland in any indyref2 are with a No Deal scenario too.
    It is only when Scotland goes not IF. The die is cast.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    timmo said:

    What is really clear this morning is the total panic in remainers ...
    This surely cant be happening....
    Can it?

    I'm a Remainer. If there's a general election before Brexit I will vote for Revoke.

    This morning I am cautiously optimistic and slightly relieved.

    What's this panic you speak of?
    I feel a cautious optimism, but we have to remember it is Boris Johnson who is PM; a man unprecedentedly unsuited to the position with as much experience of negotiation as my pet cat. Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.
    Keeping his marriage alive as long as he did must have involved some negotiation...
    Or a wife willing to be a doormat.
    Or one willing to turn a blind eye because she cared more about her children, perhaps?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,151
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    All informed journalist opinion agrees something big shifted yesterday. The Irish are publicly very chipper about it. There is complete Radio silence from the British end. We know Barnier/Barclay talks sre scheduled this morning to decide whether to go into tge tunnell or not. Arlene Foster's sporting tweet may have been entirely innocent or very obviously coded. We also know this wasn't spontanious as Diwning Street have been hawking a letter of support round Business for day's in advance.

    So what can we deduce ? 1. Boris has made his big move 2. It's not implausible enough to have been instantly blown up. 2. It's implausible enough to have triggered 12 + hours of behind the scenes British hagling.

    What does it look like ? We don't know but hidden in plain sight is Boris is hardening the future relationship to buy ERG support but softening the NI arrangements to buy EU support. Which leaves us with how far under the bus the DUP are prepared to be thrown. And hiw repelled Labour MPs are by the hardness of the PD compared to May's.

    We talk of three dimensional Chess but this is three dimensional tight rope walking where you can fall up as well as down. Everything in the current House of Commons that buts extra support repels someone else. But it's slso Chemistry as well as Physics.

    Just Boris breaking up the union to get Brexit, NI under the bus and Scotland will follow.
    If Boris gets a Deal through then the Union is safe.

    Polls only show Northern Irish voters backing uniting with the Republic in the event if No Deal and a hard border with Ireland and the only polls showing Yes ahead in Scotland in any indyref2 are with a No Deal scenario too.
    It is only when Scotland goes not IF. The die is cast.
    No it is not at all, that is complacency from your end
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    isam said:

    Noo said:

    isam said:

    Noo said:

    isam said:

    isam said:


    Yeah compromise is for schmucks. Keep the hatred going Al, until they beg forgiveness for stepping out of line... and then spit at the sub ISIS scum for being stupid enough to think that was good enough

    Do point out to me the compromises that Leavers think they're making.
    Letting Theresa May the Remainer take charge of the negotiations was one. Accepting any deal our PM agreed is another. Not sure if failing to respond in kind to relentless playground name calling from people who ought to know better is a compromise or just self control, but there is that too.

    And the Remain compromises? Allowing us to leave isn’t one by the way
    Elevating Theresa May to PM was a decision taken by Conservative MPs and nobody else had any input. She then delivered a deal which was hard Brexit, and that still wasn't good enough for the ERG.
    If you think any of that was a compromise, you need a padded room and some thorazine.
    Ah yes. The ‘you must be insane if you disagree with me’ card.

    One day soon that will be as offensive as a racist joke, but for now I’ll just smile to myself 😊
    Ok, we'll agree a leaver-style compromise. We'll agree that I won't call you insane, but in return I get to call you insane ;)
    That would seem to be your idea of compromise, not mine.

    We see these put downs of dissenting voices as mentally ill every day on here. ‘Loons’ is just a throwaway word. Surprising from people who are pretty PC, in these days of raised awareness of mental illness. I’d say without knowing someone’s family history it is quite an appalling put down to use.
    It's not "dissenting voices" that's the problem, it's the irrationalist nonsense you come out with.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    Cyclefree said:

    Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.

    Yeah, that seems not to be noticed by the headbangers but it seems pretty unarguable on the turn of events.
    And wasn’t it only a few days ago that Cummings was briefing that if the EU didn’t like Boris’s original proposals he would just walk away, that would be it, no negotiations blah, blah? That seems to have been more piss and wind.

    Anyway, all this cautious rejoicing is a bit premature, no? There isn’t a deal yet. Fingers crossed.
    I like the idea of cautious rejoicing. That's probably the most British thing that I've heard of since the referendum result.
    And brought to you by a child of immigrants. So even more British. :)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,724
    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Speaking of which what are the bets Becky vs Coleen - which is the leaver and which is the remainer?

    I would put Coleen as the remainer and Vardy as the leaver.

    Quite possibly. Merseyside was pretty solidly Remain.

    Quite apart from the #Wagathachristie element, the fight is an interesting insight into British class structure. The original generation of 2006 Wags regard Rebekah Vardy as a lower class upstart wannabee. That is the root of what has transpired.
    That's funny! Coleen lives in Prestbury. Couldn't be much further removed from Merseyside.
    Well it is possible to be more than 35 miles away!

    Coleen was born and raised in Liverpool, indeed her and Wayne met at school there. In any case, isn't Prestbury also a part of the Remainia archipelago?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    isam said:


    Yeah compromise is for schmucks. Keep the hatred going Al, until they beg forgiveness for stepping out of line... and then spit at the sub ISIS scum for being stupid enough to think that was good enough

    Do point out to me the compromises that Leavers think they're making.
    Letting Theresa May the Remainer take charge of the negotiations was one. Accepting any deal our PM agreed is another. Not sure if failing to respond in kind to relentless playground name calling from people who ought to know better is a compromise or just self control, but there is that too.

    And the Remain compromises? Allowing us to leave isn’t one by the way
    That was the Tory Party's fault. Who contested the leadership? Leadsome for a bit, and then....no one.

    Why didn't the Party put up Francois, elect him by a thumping majority, and then they would have had their leaver doing the negotiations.

    It was all democratically done. That is our party system. You going on about putting a "remainer" in charge is as non-sensical as people bleating about the Cons/Lab being elected with only 35% +/- of the vote. It is how our democratic system works.

    You would rather that time was frozen in June 2016, that referendum was the only valid demonstration of democracy, everything that everyone said right then should be held against them for ever more.

    You are ignoring the rich, all-encompassing, frustrating (parliamentary as well as direct) democracy that we live with.
    Calm down dear. I’m just saying it was a compromise, not complaining.
    Perfectly calm.

    The point being that there's no point "compromising", as you put it, only to withdraw assent from the agent of that compromise when they, er, compromise. It's not a compromise to put May in charge if you don't allow her to actually compromise when it comes to it.

    Edit: that's enough compromises.
    I thought the question was about leavers in general compromising, not the ERG specifically, sorry.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Noo said:

    isam said:

    Noo said:

    isam said:

    Noo said:

    isam said:

    isam said:


    Yeah compromise is for schmucks. Keep the hatred going Al, until they beg forgiveness for stepping out of line... and then spit at the sub ISIS scum for being stupid enough to think that was good enough

    Do point out to me the compromises that Leavers think they're making.
    Letting Theresa May the Remainer take charge of the negotiations was one. Accepting any deal our PM agreed is another. Not sure if failing to respond in kind to relentless playground name calling from people who ought to know better is a compromise or just self control, but there is that too.

    And the Remain compromises? Allowing us to leave isn’t one by the way
    Elevating Theresa May to PM was a decision taken by Conservative MPs and nobody else had any input. She then delivered a deal which was hard Brexit, and that still wasn't good enough for the ERG.
    If you think any of that was a compromise, you need a padded room and some thorazine.
    Ah yes. The ‘you must be insane if you disagree with me’ card.

    One day soon that will be as offensive as a racist joke, but for now I’ll just smile to myself 😊
    Ok, we'll agree a leaver-style compromise. We'll agree that I won't call you insane, but in return I get to call you insane ;)
    That would seem to be your idea of compromise, not mine.

    We see these put downs of dissenting voices as mentally ill every day on here. ‘Loons’ is just a throwaway word. Surprising from people who are pretty PC, in these days of raised awareness of mental illness. I’d say without knowing someone’s family history it is quite an appalling put down to use.
    It's not "dissenting voices" that's the problem, it's the irrationalist nonsense you come out with.
    Actually that doesn’t address the point at all.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.

    Yeah, that seems not to be noticed by the headbangers but it seems pretty unarguable on the turn of events.
    And wasn’t it only a few days ago that Cummings was briefing that if the EU didn’t like Boris’s original proposals he would just walk away, that would be it, no negotiations blah, blah? That seems to have been more piss and wind.

    Anyway, all this cautious rejoicing is a bit premature, no? There isn’t a deal yet. Fingers crossed.



    What comes out will be the original EU proposal of a NI only Backstop IMO.
    Exactly.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,724
    Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    timmo said:

    What is really clear this morning is the total panic in remainers ...
    This surely cant be happening....
    Can it?

    I'm a Remainer. If there's a general election before Brexit I will vote for Revoke.

    This morning I am cautiously optimistic and slightly relieved.

    What's this panic you speak of?
    I feel a cautious optimism, but we have to remember it is Boris Johnson who is PM; a man unprecedentedly unsuited to the position with as much experience of negotiation as my pet cat. Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.
    Keeping his marriage alive as long as he did must have involved some negotiation...
    Or a wife willing to be a doormat.
    Or one willing to turn a blind eye because she cared more about her children, perhaps?
    There are many ways that people reconcile themselves to emotionally abusive relationships, and that is certainly one.
  • I have no time at all for the SNP and its small minded nationalist agenda, but Gove's hypocrisy as a Brexiteer is pretty breath taking:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/michael-gove-accuses-snp-of-undermining-brexit-planning-to-smash-up-uk/ar-AAIAHzz?ocid=spartanntp
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    isam said:


    Yeah compromise is for schmucks. Keep the hatred going Al, until they beg forgiveness for stepping out of line... and then spit at the sub ISIS scum for being stupid enough to think that was good enough

    Do point out to me the compromises that Leavers think they're making.
    Letting Theresa May the Remainer take charge of the negotiations was one. Accepting any deal our PM agreed is another. Not sure if failing to respond in kind to relentless playground name calling from people who ought to know better is a compromise or just self control, but there is that too.

    And the Remain compromises? Allowing us to leave isn’t one by the way
    That was the Tory Party's fault. Who contested the leadership? Leadsome for a bit, and then....no one.

    Why didn't the Party put up Francois, elect him by a thumping majority, and then they would have had their leaver doing the negotiations.

    It was all democratically done. That is our party system. You going on about putting a "remainer" in charge is as non-sensical as people bleating about the Cons/Lab being elected with only 35% +/- of the vote. It is how our democratic system works.

    You would rather that time was frozen in June 2016, that referendum was the only valid demonstration of democracy, everything that everyone said right then should be held against them for ever more.

    You are ignoring the rich, all-encompassing, frustrating (parliamentary as well as direct) democracy that we live with.
    Calm down dear. I’m just saying it was a compromise, not complaining.
    Perfectly calm.

    The point being that there's no point "compromising", as you put it, only to withdraw assent from the agent of that compromise when they, er, compromise. It's not a compromise to put May in charge if you don't allow her to actually compromise when it comes to it.

    Edit: that's enough compromises.
    I thought the question was about leavers in general compromising, not the ERG specifically, sorry.
    You said that Theresa May being put in charge of negotiations was an example of compromise. I'm saying it was no such thing, given that the deal she brought back was voted down by the same people who had "compromised" by putting her in charge.
  • malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    All informed journalist opinion agrees something big shifted yesterday. The Irish are publicly very chipper about it. There is complete Radio silence from the British end. We know Barnier/Barclay talks sre scheduled this morning to decide whether to go into tge tunnell or not. Arlene Foster's sporting tweet may have been entirely innocent or very obviously coded. We also know this wasn't spontanious as Diwning Street have been hawking a letter of support round Business for day's in advance.

    So what can we deduce ? 1. Boris has made his big move 2. It's not implausible enough to have been instantly blown up. 2. It's implausible enough to have triggered 12 + hours of behind the scenes British hagling.

    What does it look like ? We don't know but hidden in plain sight is Boris is hardening the future relationship to buy ERG support but softening the NI arrangements to buy EU support. Which leaves us with how far under the bus the DUP are prepared to be thrown. And hiw repelled Labour MPs are by the hardness of the PD compared to May's.

    We talk of three dimensional Chess but this is three dimensional tight rope walking where you can fall up as well as down. Everything in the current House of Commons that buts extra support repels someone else. But it's slso Chemistry as well as Physics.

    Just Boris breaking up the union to get Brexit, NI under the bus and Scotland will follow.
    You say that like it's a bad thing, malc?
    Not at all Mark, just what I think he will do. As you know it would suit me. Hard to see why they have let everything revolve around NI in the first place, they should have given NI a take it or leave it choice right at start of negotiations and went from there.
    I see the the PB Brexiteer position has subtly evolved almost overnight from 'it would be an outrage if the UK ceded control of a part of its territory to another entity' to 'the Norns will just have to suck it up'. Who says that they're incapable of being flexible?!
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited October 2019
    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    isam said:


    Yeah compromise is for schmucks. Keep the hatred going Al, until they beg forgiveness for stepping out of line... and then spit at the sub ISIS scum for being stupid enough to think that was good enough

    Do point out to me the compromises that Leavers think they're making.
    Letting Theresa May the Remainer take charge of the negotiations was one. Accepting any deal our PM agreed is another. Not sure if failing to respond in kind to relentless playground name calling from people who ought to know better is a compromise or just self control, but there is that too.

    And the Remain compromises? Allowing us to leave isn’t one by the way
    That was the Tory Party's fault. Who contested the leadership? Leadsome for a bit, and then....no one.

    Why didn't the Party put up Francois, elect him by a thumping majority, and then they would have had their leaver doing the negotiations.

    It was all democratically done. That is our party system. You going on about putting a "remainer" in charge is as non-sensical as people bleating about the Cons/Lab being elected with only 35% +/- of the vote. It is how our democratic system works.

    You would rather that time was frozen in June 2016, that referendum was the only valid demonstration of democracy, everything that everyone said right then should be held against them for ever more.

    You are ignoring the rich, all-encompassing, frustrating (parliamentary as well as direct) democracy that we live with.
    Calm down dear. I’m just saying it was a compromise, not complaining.
    Perfectly calm.

    The point being that there's no point "compromising", as you put it, only to withdraw assent from the agent of that compromise when they, er, compromise. It's not a compromise to put May in charge if you don't allow her to actually compromise when it comes to it.

    Edit: that's enough compromises.
    I thought the question was about leavers in general compromising, not the ERG specifically, sorry.
    You said that Theresa May being put in charge of negotiations was an example of compromise. I'm saying it was no such thing, given that the deal she brought back was voted down by the same people who had "compromised" by putting her in charge.
    Leavers compromised by voting for her rather than UKIP

    Farage compromised by not standing in 2017, and not being Ukip leader.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Speaking of which what are the bets Becky vs Coleen - which is the leaver and which is the remainer?

    I would put Coleen as the remainer and Vardy as the leaver.

    Quite possibly. Merseyside was pretty solidly Remain.

    Quite apart from the #Wagathachristie element, the fight is an interesting insight into British class structure. The original generation of 2006 Wags regard Rebekah Vardy as a lower class upstart wannabee. That is the root of what has transpired.

    Even lower class than the others ?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    TOPPING said:

    Rebekah Vardy: "Arguing with Coleen Rooney would be as pointless as arguing with a pigeon."

    PB NEEDS BECKY VARDY NOW!!!

    You missed the best part of the quote!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,724
    isam said:

    Noo said:

    isam said:

    isam said:


    Yeah compromise is for schmucks. Keep the hatred going Al, until they beg forgiveness for stepping out of line... and then spit at the sub ISIS scum for being stupid enough to think that was good enough

    Do point out to me the compromises that Leavers think they're making.
    Letting Theresa May the Remainer take charge of the negotiations was one. Accepting any deal our PM agreed is another. Not sure if failing to respond in kind to relentless playground name calling from people who ought to know better is a compromise or just self control, but there is that too.

    And the Remain compromises? Allowing us to leave isn’t one by the way
    Elevating Theresa May to PM was a decision taken by Conservative MPs and nobody else had any input. She then delivered a deal which was hard Brexit, and that still wasn't good enough for the ERG.
    If you think any of that was a compromise, you need a padded room and some thorazine.
    Ah yes. The ‘you must be insane if you disagree with me’ card.

    One day soon that will be as offensive as a racist joke, but for now I’ll just smile to myself 😊
    Yes, I agree. If we are to move on from stigmatising mental health issues, then such terms should be as obsolete as calling someone a girly swot or piccaninny.

    I wouldn't claim to have a clean record on such language myself, but will try to drop it going forward.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Altrincham & Sale West: Remain 61.4%

    Penistone & Stocksbridge: Remain 39.3%

    You can see the attraction of the move.

    Also worth noting that at GE2017 Brady lost vote share, against the national tide for the Conservatives. Clearly a Brexit effect involved.
    I have this as a Labour gain. I'm not sure this move is enough to either allow the Lib Dems to take it from third or to allow Brady to hold on.
    The Tories got 51% in Altrincham and Sale West at the 2017 general election, Labour got 39% and the LDs 8%.

    On current polls Brady will easily be re elected
    Wouldn't be so sure

    True blue areas like Alty voted Green in the council elections amazing given its history of always voting Tory
    Like most urban areas, it's probably been slowly metamorphosing into a small l liberal community as young professionals have moved in attracted by the good schools.

    The strongest Tory wards in the seat are in Bowden, Hale, St Marys and Timperley not in Altrincham.

    Indeed the lowest Tory voteshare of the wards that make up the Altrincham and Sale West constituency in the 2019 Trafford local elections came in Altrincham itself
  • malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    All informed journalist opinion agrees something big shifted yesterday. The Irish are publicly very chipper about it. There is complete Radio silence from the British end. We know Barnier/Barclay talks sre scheduled this morning to decide whether to go into tge tunnell or not. Arlene Foster's sporting tweet may have been entirely innocent or very obviously coded. We also know this wasn't spontanious as Diwning Street have been hawking a letter of support round Business for day's in advance.

    So what can we deduce ? 1. Boris has made his big move 2. It's not implausible enough to have been instantly blown up. 2. It's implausible enough to have triggered 12 + hours of behind the scenes British hagling.

    What does it look like ? We don't know but hidden in plain sight is Boris is hardening the future relationship to buy ERG support but softening the NI arrangements to buy EU support. Which leaves us with how far under the bus the DUP are prepared to be thrown. And hiw repelled Labour MPs are by the hardness of the PD compared to May's.

    We talk of three dimensional Chess but this is three dimensional tight rope walking where you can fall up as well as down. Everything in the current House of Commons that buts extra support repels someone else. But it's slso Chemistry as well as Physics.

    Just Boris breaking up the union to get Brexit, NI under the bus and Scotland will follow.
    If Boris gets a Deal through then the Union is safe.

    Polls only show Northern Irish voters backing uniting with the Republic in the event if No Deal and a hard border with Ireland and the only polls showing Yes ahead in Scotland in any indyref2 are with a No Deal scenario too.
    It is only when Scotland goes not IF. The die is cast.
    As TE Lawrence is reputed to say, "nothing is written".

    I was in your beautiful country a few days ago, so I very much hope it is not so. More unites us than divides us. Brexit has shown that separation and divisiveness does not benefit anyone. Devo-max is probably a good solution for both Scotland and rUK that I am sure many sensible Scots would settle for. Compromise is better than absolutist positions in most cases.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,236
    More run of the mill abuse of office by Trump, reported yesterday:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-asked-tillerson-to-help-broker-deal-to-end-us-prosecution-of-turkish-trader-represented-by-giuliani/2019/10/10/fbe16976-eb6b-11e9-9306-47cb0324fd44_story.html
    President Trump sought to enlist then-Secretary of State Rex Tillerson in the fall of 2017 to work with Rudolph W. Giuliani to help stop the prosecution of a Turkish Iranian gold trader represented by the former New York mayor, according to people with knowledge of the request.

    Trump urged Tillerson in an Oval Office meeting to try to craft a diplomatic “deal” to stop the U.S. case against Reza Zarrab on corruption charges in exchange for concessions from Turkey. The request shocked the then-secretary of state, said the people, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe private conversations involving the president....
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046
    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Speaking of which what are the bets Becky vs Coleen - which is the leaver and which is the remainer?

    I would put Coleen as the remainer and Vardy as the leaver.

    Quite possibly. Merseyside was pretty solidly Remain.

    Quite apart from the #Wagathachristie element, the fight is an interesting insight into British class structure. The original generation of 2006 Wags regard Rebekah Vardy as a lower class upstart wannabee. That is the root of what has transpired.
    That's funny! Coleen lives in Prestbury. Couldn't be much further removed from Merseyside.
    "You can take the girl out of Scouserville ... "
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,236
    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Noo said:

    isam said:

    isam said:


    Yeah compromise is for schmucks. Keep the hatred going Al, until they beg forgiveness for stepping out of line... and then spit at the sub ISIS scum for being stupid enough to think that was good enough

    Do point out to me the compromises that Leavers think they're making.
    Letting Theresa May the Remainer take charge of the negotiations was one. Accepting any deal our PM agreed is another. Not sure if failing to respond in kind to relentless playground name calling from people who ought to know better is a compromise or just self control, but there is that too.

    And the Remain compromises? Allowing us to leave isn’t one by the way
    Elevating Theresa May to PM was a decision taken by Conservative MPs and nobody else had any input. She then delivered a deal which was hard Brexit, and that still wasn't good enough for the ERG.
    If you think any of that was a compromise, you need a padded room and some thorazine.
    Ah yes. The ‘you must be insane if you disagree with me’ card.

    One day soon that will be as offensive as a racist joke, but for now I’ll just smile to myself 😊
    Yes, I agree. If we are to move on from stigmatising mental health issues, then such terms should be as obsolete as calling someone a girly swot or piccaninny.

    I wouldn't claim to have a clean record on such language myself, but will try to drop it going forward.
    Simpler to describe an utter fool as an utter fool, perhaps ?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Scott_P said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rebekah Vardy: "Arguing with Coleen Rooney would be as pointless as arguing with a pigeon."

    PB NEEDS BECKY VARDY NOW!!!

    You missed the best part of the quote!
    True! Like home from home for PB-ers.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046
    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.

    Yeah, that seems not to be noticed by the headbangers but it seems pretty unarguable on the turn of events.
    And wasn’t it only a few days ago that Cummings was briefing that if the EU didn’t like Boris’s original proposals he would just walk away, that would be it, no negotiations blah, blah? That seems to have been more piss and wind.

    Anyway, all this cautious rejoicing is a bit premature, no? There isn’t a deal yet. Fingers crossed.
    What comes out will be the original EU proposal of a NI only Backstop IMO.
    It was only rejected by May (and extended to rUK) because of her reliance on the DUP for a majority.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046
    edited October 2019
    Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    timmo said:

    What is really clear this morning is the total panic in remainers ...
    This surely cant be happening....
    Can it?

    I'm a Remainer. If there's a general election before Brexit I will vote for Revoke.

    This morning I am cautiously optimistic and slightly relieved.

    What's this panic you speak of?
    I feel a cautious optimism, but we have to remember it is Boris Johnson who is PM; a man unprecedentedly unsuited to the position with as much experience of negotiation as my pet cat. Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.
    Keeping his marriage alive as long as he did must have involved some negotiation...
    Or a wife willing to be a doormat.
    Or one willing to turn a blind eye because she cared more about her children, perhaps?
    Possibly also relieved that she'd managed to subcontract that aspect of her marital duties.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    isam said:

    Leavers compromised by voting for her rather than UKIP

    Farage compromised by not standing in 2017, and not being Ukip leader.

    And then they screamed blue murder when she did something that was, er, a compromise. If leavers are going to compromise then they should compromise. Farage didn't stand and then blasted and continues to blast her compromise deal.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,151
    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Altrincham & Sale West: Remain 61.4%

    Penistone & Stocksbridge: Remain 39.3%

    You can see the attraction of the move.

    Also worth noting that at GE2017 Brady lost vote share, against the national tide for the Conservatives. Clearly a Brexit effect involved.
    I have this as a Labour gain. I'm not sure this move is enough to either allow the Lib Dems to take it from third or to allow Brady to hold on.
    The Tories got 51% in Altrincham and Sale West at the 2017 general election, Labour got 39% and the LDs 8%.

    On current polls Brady will easily be re elected
    Wouldn't be so sure

    True blue areas like Alty voted Green in the council elections amazing given its history of always voting Tory
    Like most urban areas, it's probably been slowly metamorphosing into a small l liberal community as young professionals have moved in attracted by the good schools.

    The strongest Tory wards in the seat are in Bowden, Hale, St Marys and Timperley not in Altrincham.

    Indeed the lowest Tory voteshare of the wards that make up the Altrincham and Sale West constituency in the 2019 Trafford local elections came in Altrincham itself
    In most Tory seats the least Tory areas are in the town itself or the more urban part and the most Tory part the villages or more rural part (except if it is in an inner city of course which is the case for only a few Tory seats now and those mainly in central London)
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    Roger said:

    Still if he does pull it off, we should be grateful to anyone that has had a part in it, and particularly those that voted for the Benn act, that far from tying his hands actually made him push harder for a deal.

    Yeah, that seems not to be noticed by the headbangers but it seems pretty unarguable on the turn of events.
    Not quite true.

    If they get a any type of Brexit they should be grateful and push for a fuller fat version if they think the electorate has the stomach for, or is gullible enough to swallow it.
    I voted to leave, and yet I’m far from an ill-educated, illiterate, xenophobic, racist, head banging deathcult member - or any of the other favourite insults levied on here to some. .

    Likewise my friends who voted Remian are not UK hating, federalist traitors.

    I’m completely for compromise. But compromise has been torpedoed by extremists on both sides. Added to which the search for compromise is, well compromised, by those wearing such anti-Boris coloured spectacles they’re blinded in their hatred and fail to accept compromise when it comes along.

    All leavers aren’t nutcases. And all remainers aren’t conspiring traitors. When we finally realise this and accept it then we might start to put this country back together.
    What were your reasons for voting Leave?
    Purely democratic.

    I can’t reconcile being a member of the EU to maintaining adequate and traditionally British checks on democratic accountability. This is especially difficult for me considering how the EU wants to develop. “Ever closer Union” without recourse frightens me in a historical context.

    Our politics are uniquely different to those on the continent, resulting from both our history and our culture. I’m not saying they’re better. Just different - and incompatible in many ways in how the State and politicians behave are are accountable.

    I don’t care about EU immigration. I have German family and am partly German myself.

    The fact that some voted leave because they are Mr Meeks favourite stereotype is immaterial for me. We all vote for our own reasons.

    I’m sure some people voted to remain as they want to see the UK dissolved into a EU superstate. Doesn’t mean all remainers think that - or that this mindset in any way undermines the reasons why others voted remain.

    Fair enough. It will always be a puzzle though how anyone could line up behind the Leave campaign and not be put off by the overt racism and xenophbia of their fellow passengers and their leaders..
This discussion has been closed.