If were back to shouting racist the Opposition havent got a plan.
The opposition don't need a plan - they just need the phrase "Boris is racist" in the back of some people's minds.
The people whose minds that might influence already have no intention of voting Boris. The only way I can see that working is if the return of PC name calling bollox gives more ammo to Farage. And then its anyones guess who benefits.
So only people who are comfortable with racism vote for Boris?
dont be silly
all those people who hate jews will be voting for Jezza
That doesn’t make sense when its the generation who have done the best from globalization who are voting for Brexit!
were simply protecting our childrens interests
By shafting the economy, their FOM, and future livelihoods?
By voting down the system which makes impoverishment possible. Are you for the burden of Uni fees ? Are you for lack of affordable housing ? Are you for the gig economy ?
Are you coming out as a communist? I think you'll find impoverishment is still horribly possible under that system too.
That doesn’t make sense when its the generation who have done the best from globalization who are voting for Brexit!
were simply protecting our childrens interests
Which is a glib answer.
I don't know if you have any children, but if you do, and they're over eighteen, why don't you ask them? Surely you've raised them well, and they are independent thinkers.
Say to them: "You'll hopefully have a few more decades on this Earth than me. I have my own strong views about this issue, but the consequences of this decision may last longer with you than they do me.
So, (son and/or daughter): how would you like me to vote? I'm not beholden to your answer, but I'd like to know. Persuade me."
Who knows, they may persuade you. But the answer is not paternalistically pretending you know best.
That doesn’t make sense when its the generation who have done the best from globalization who are voting for Brexit!
were simply protecting our childrens interests
pulling up the ladder behind us. (Can't be bothered to do the strikethrough and ftfy malarkey.)
Speak for yourself, this twaddle that old people dont know or dont care is just that. its the centrist remainy internationalists who have got us here, the current settlement is theirs.
Good to see Corbyn taking back control from Starmer. Election still isn't a 1.2 shot though it does look highly likely now. I always lose money on "time of election" etc markets so this one will be no different
That doesn’t make sense when its the generation who have done the best from globalization who are voting for Brexit!
were simply protecting our childrens interests
By shafting the economy, their FOM, and future livelihoods?
By voting down the system which makes impoverishment possible. Are you for the burden of Uni fees ? Are you for lack of affordable housing ? Are you for the gig economy ?
Are you coming out as a communist? I think you'll find impoverishment is still horribly possible under that system too.
I am starting to think there is a good chance that the government advises HMQ to withhold assent for the current bill on Friday. My thinking is that the government absolutely must leave on October 31 if it is to win the next election. If Royal assent is refused on Friday and then parliament is suspended early next week, then the government might be able to sit this out until 31 October. I operate on the basis that the government will do anything now to leave the EU, and it hasn't explicitly ruled this path out. Needless to say this pitches us into the mother of all constitutional crises, but I think that Johnson and Cummings are all in now and so that won't bother them.
I think if Johnson refused to submit the bill for royal assent there's a good chance he would be VONC'd and replaced by Corbyn. Or there would be a one-clause bill transferring the responsibility for submitting legislation to HM to, say, the Speaker or a Parliamentary official.
But parliament will be prorogued from the beginning of next week until mid October, so how does parliament do any of that in time?
Do it in mid-October. A VONC takes priority over everything else (except the Queen's Speech, I guess) and substituting a caretaker should be doable as fast as the politicians can haggle, which they also had the recess to do.
So parliament comes back and debates the queen's speech for several days. Then Corbyn calls a vonc that the government loses. There are 14 days to form an alternative government. Even if Corbyn or Clarke or whoever announced they could form a government on day one, couldn't Johnson refuse to move until 14 days have passed, and by then we could be beyond Oct 31?
Knew it. Starmer’s position was waaaay too clever and astute for Labour. There was no possibility of restraining magic gramps for weeks. And so they’ve thrown away their biggest advantage. Time. Idiots.
"What's about to happen? It's a packed afternoon in Parliament. So what's going to happen, and when?
3pm - MPs begin to debate the Brexit delay bill - called the European Union Withdrawal No 6 Bill; 5pm - the first vote on the bill is expected; 7pm - there is a second round of votes - and then, if it's approved, the bill moves on to the House of Lords for the next stage; 8.30pm - if the bill is passed by MPs, the government is expected to table a motion asking to hold a general election, followed by a vote. (As ever, all these timings are subject to change!)"
It is a fabulous way of distracting people away from really important things, and in particular proper democratic reform. Useful idiots go on about the "Establishment" and how said Establishment has got it in for Brexit. Nope, a large part of the Establishment loves Brexit. Jacob Rees-Mogg and Boris think it is a wonderful way to keep the plebs wound up and moving toward a much more right wing agenda.
It looks worse the more I see of it. Last night I foolishly accepted the spin from some on here who said he was merely pressing his ear against an audio speaker, which is palpable nonsense. The man clearly intended to demonstrate beyond all doubt that a chap of his breeding can do what the hell he likes and the riff-raff would do well to take note.
I think the final which was the final straw for me last night was JRM. His high and snobby attitude and speech might be endearing in another place, but here, where actual jobs and economies matter it was misplaced and out of order.
I'm actually wondering if a period of Corbyn government, as disasterous as it would be in some areas wouldn't now be whats at least required, if certainly not desired.
I am starting to think there is a good chance that the government advises HMQ to withhold assent for the current bill on Friday. My thinking is that the government absolutely must leave on October 31 if it is to win the next election. If Royal assent is refused on Friday and then parliament is suspended early next week, then the government might be able to sit this out until 31 October. I operate on the basis that the government will do anything now to leave the EU, and it hasn't explicitly ruled this path out. Needless to say this pitches us into the mother of all constitutional crises, but I think that Johnson and Cummings are all in now and so that won't bother them.
I think if Johnson refused to submit the bill for royal assent there's a good chance he would be VONC'd and replaced by Corbyn. Or there would be a one-clause bill transferring the responsibility for submitting legislation to HM to, say, the Speaker or a Parliamentary official.
But parliament will be prorogued from the beginning of next week until mid October, so how does parliament do any of that in time?
Do it in mid-October. A VONC takes priority over everything else (except the Queen's Speech, I guess) and substituting a caretaker should be doable as fast as the politicians can haggle, which they also had the recess to do.
So parliament comes back and debates the queen's speech for several days. Then Corbyn calls a vonc that the government loses. There are 14 days to form an alternative government. Even if Corbyn or Clarke or whoever announced they could form a government on day one, couldn't Johnson refuse to move until 14 days have passed, and by then we could be beyond Oct 31?
There has to always be a PM. The Benn bill binds "THE PM" so whoever is PM at the time has to sign the letter or be in breach of the act. If Johnson is still PM then he'll have to sign it whilst a Gov't is attempted to be formed.
If Johnson refuses to move after Corbyn has won an election and doesn't extend the legislation I expect Europe would give us an extension anyway. That would be absolubtely commensurate with NOT interfering in our domestic affairs since the British public are clearly voting for an extension if Tories + DUp doesn't have a Commons majority. If Johnson loses the election on the 14th then I expect he will sign. If he 'wins' then he'll probably sign too but will be able to whip his MPs (So as not to be in breach of the act) against so the letter won't take legal effect.
That doesn’t make sense when its the generation who have done the best from globalization who are voting for Brexit!
were simply protecting our childrens interests
Which is a glib answer.
I don't know if you have any children, but if you do, and they're over eighteen, why don't you ask them? Surely you've raised them well, and they are independent thinkers.
Say to them: "You'll hopefully have a few more decades on this Earth than me. I have my own strong views about this issue, but the consequences of this decision may last longer with you than they do me.
So, (son and/or daughter): how would you like me to vote? I'm not beholden to your answer, but I'd like to know. Persuade me."
Who knows, they may persuade you. But the answer is not paternalistically pretending you know best.
I have 3 children 28, 26 and 23 if you seriously imagine I dont talk to them or understand their concerns your far off the mark. One voted remain, one voted leave and one couldnt see what the fuss was about. The last one ( the civil engineer ) was probably the most sensible of us all.
Im also married to a remainer who'll probably vote LD. So its not as if I dont see things from the other side.
And as for paternalism Ill be as paternalistic as I like thats the sodding point when youre a father,
That doesn’t make sense when its the generation who have done the best from globalization who are voting for Brexit!
were simply protecting our childrens interests
By shafting the economy, their FOM, and future livelihoods?
By voting down the system which makes impoverishment possible. Are you for the burden of Uni fees ? Are you for lack of affordable housing ? Are you for the gig economy ?
Are you coming out as a communist? I think you'll find impoverishment is still horribly possible under that system too.
Im anti corporatism and pro reform.
So what anti-corporatist reforms would you suggest in, say, the smartphone industry?
So parliament comes back and debates the queen's speech for several days. Then Corbyn calls a vonc that the government loses. There are 14 days to form an alternative government. Even if Corbyn or Clarke or whoever announced they could form a government on day one, couldn't Johnson refuse to move until 14 days have passed, and by then we could be beyond Oct 31?
I don't think they have to wait to *debate* the Queen's Speech, they should be able to do it the next day. Johnson isn't supposed to sit there for 14 days after a new government becomes possible, he's supposed to resign as soon as it's clear, which they could prove with a single vote.on Day 1. I suppose he could refuse to resign and challenge The Queen to sack him...
My other half has a problem with her potential vote as of now, because we're in Mann's constituency and he is more reliable than Hammond at voting with the Tories atm
So parliament comes back and debates the queen's speech for several days. Then Corbyn calls a vonc that the government loses. There are 14 days to form an alternative government. Even if Corbyn or Clarke or whoever announced they could form a government on day one, couldn't Johnson refuse to move until 14 days have passed, and by then we could be beyond Oct 31?
I don't think they have to wait to *debate* the Queen's Speech, they should be able to do it the next day. Johnson isn't supposed to sit there for 14 days after a new government becomes possible, he's supposed to resign as soon as it's clear, which they could prove with a single vote.on Day 1. I suppose he could refuse to resign and challenge The Queen to sack him...
When I looked into this last week it turns out that a Queen's speech overrides everything else - as it's the start of a new Parliamentary session it takes precedence over everything else.
So parliament comes back and debates the queen's speech for several days. Then Corbyn calls a vonc that the government loses. There are 14 days to form an alternative government. Even if Corbyn or Clarke or whoever announced they could form a government on day one, couldn't Johnson refuse to move until 14 days have passed, and by then we could be beyond Oct 31?
I don't think they have to wait to *debate* the Queen's Speech, they should be able to do it the next day. Johnson isn't supposed to sit there for 14 days after a new government becomes possible, he's supposed to resign as soon as it's clear, which they could prove with a single vote.on Day 1. I suppose he could refuse to resign and challenge The Queen to sack him...
I think he needs to resign when it is clear who has the confidence of the house. He also needs to sign the letter if he's the PM on that day come what may. He's obviously trying to get us out but isn't a constitutional vandal despite what many think right now.
So parliament comes back and debates the queen's speech for several days. Then Corbyn calls a vonc that the government loses. There are 14 days to form an alternative government. Even if Corbyn or Clarke or whoever announced they could form a government on day one, couldn't Johnson refuse to move until 14 days have passed, and by then we could be beyond Oct 31?
I don't think they have to wait to *debate* the Queen's Speech, they should be able to do it the next day. Johnson isn't supposed to sit there for 14 days after a new government becomes possible, he's supposed to resign as soon as it's clear, which they could prove with a single vote.on Day 1. I suppose he could refuse to resign and challenge The Queen to sack him...
When I looked into this last week it turns out that a Queen's speech overrides everything else - as it's the start of a new Parliamentary session it takes precedence over everything else.
Sure, but does that apply to the *debate* on the Queen's Speech?
That doesn’t make sense when its the generation who have done the best from globalization who are voting for Brexit!
were simply protecting our childrens interests
Which is a glib answer.
I don't know if you have any children, but if you do, and they're over eighteen, why don't you ask them? Surely you've raised them well, and they are independent thinkers.
Say to them: "You'll hopefully have a few more decades on this Earth than me. I have my own strong views about this issue, but the consequences of this decision may last longer with you than they do me.
So, (son and/or daughter): how would you like me to vote? I'm not beholden to your answer, but I'd like to know. Persuade me."
Who knows, they may persuade you. But the answer is not paternalistically pretending you know best.
I have 3 children 28, 26 and 23 if you seriously imagine I dont talk to them or understand their concerns your far off the mark. One voted remain, one voted leave and one couldnt see what the fuss was about. The last one ( the civil engineer ) was probably the most sensible of us all.
Im also married to a remainer who'll probably vote LD. So its not as if I dont see things from the other side.
And as for paternalism Ill be as paternalistic as I like thats the sodding point when youre a father,
What I have found most extraordinary since 2016 is the lack of political empathy shown by most people I’ve met that voted Remain, especially so versus most Leave voters I have met. It was a finely balanced and complex issue gang, nothing wrong with falling either side of the line!
Spotify has just started playing me the 2019 Conservative manifesto...as leaked by Three Dog Night....
"If I were the king of the world:
Tell you what I'd do I'd throw away the cars and the bars and the war Make sweet love to you Sing it now Joy to the world All the boys and girls Joy to the fishes in the deep blue sea Joy to you and me You know I love the ladies Love to have my fun I'm a high life flyer and a rainbow rider A straight shootin' son-of-a-gun I said a straight shootin' son-of-a-gun"
The 'well' in this case would be a vote of no confidence in HMG. It was confirmed today that the matter is not justice able.
Not in a Scottish court - tomorrow in an English court....
No reason why the English judgement would be any different to the Scottish one.
It'll be like VAR, refs covering for each other and refusing to disagree.
The Court of Session's judgment will (subject to leave to appeal being granted) quite rightly form precedent for the High Court.
The judgment is pretty clear, by the way. It's on the court's website now. Lord Doherty rules for HMG on pretty much every point. Not the best one to have crowdfunded.
So parliament comes back and debates the queen's speech for several days. Then Corbyn calls a vonc that the government loses. There are 14 days to form an alternative government. Even if Corbyn or Clarke or whoever announced they could form a government on day one, couldn't Johnson refuse to move until 14 days have passed, and by then we could be beyond Oct 31?
I don't think they have to wait to *debate* the Queen's Speech, they should be able to do it the next day. Johnson isn't supposed to sit there for 14 days after a new government becomes possible, he's supposed to resign as soon as it's clear, which they could prove with a single vote.on Day 1. I suppose he could refuse to resign and challenge The Queen to sack him...
When I looked into this last week it turns out that a Queen's speech overrides everything else - as it's the start of a new Parliamentary session it takes precedence over everything else.
Sure, but does that apply to the *debate* on the Queen's Speech?
Yes from my reading the whole debate does - as it's the final vote that kicks the session off.
I think there is damage all round. Boris will be seen as doing it out of desperation and playing games with elections. He is such a lying Cnut that people will not believe his sincerity when he claims he didn't want an election. It appears that even Mr. Thicky isn't going to be goaded into what is so blatantly a device to push through no-deal.
That’s surprisingly sensible from Labour. Wait and delay. Make Boris go to Brussels and ask for the extension he never wanted. Terrible Optics for BJ
But there is one alternative outcome. What if Boris refuses to ask?
Then, as per the surrender bill, Brussels will impose an extension, to be rubber-stamped by parliament. What if it is 3 years? Or 5? 10? Where are we then?! And what if it has conditions?
To be honest, so long as the government is of a Brexit persuasion, then the length of the extension is irrelevant.
Why?
Because there are two obvious outs: 1. The extension is for five years. The Brexit government revokes Brexit... and then resubmits. It's now only two years to exit. 2. The government tells the EU that it will simply repeal the European Communities Act, which takes the UK out of the EU (effectively) immediately.
The issue, really, is if there is a "notionally, but in reality not particularly Brexity" government. In which case it is used as an excuse to kick it into the long grass.
But if I look at the options available to the British people in 2019, they seem to be "No Deal Now!" or "Bollocks to Brexit".
So at least this year we should see clarity one way or the other. Either the Conservatives get a majority and take us out without a deal (probably a 60% chance), or a Referendum for Remain coalition get in (say 25%), in which case there'll likely be referendum between EFTA/EEA and Revoke.
There is, of course, a 15% chance that there is no workable government after the election, with the Tories losing the same number of seats to the LibDems and the SNP that they gain from Labour. In which case, we're all fucked.
So - as someone who wants to leave the EU, but in an orderly fashion, who do I vote for?
If the Tories lose the same number of seats to the LibDems and SNP as they gain from Labour then that's a pro-Leave majority with the DUP. The Tories who have defected/expelled would be replaced with pro-Leave MPs.
As long as the DUP don't lose many (or any) seats, of course. They may lose none, one, two, three, four, or five at current polling.
That doesn’t make sense when its the generation who have done the best from globalization who are voting for Brexit!
were simply protecting our childrens interests
By shafting the economy, their FOM, and future livelihoods?
By voting down the system which makes impoverishment possible. Are you for the burden of Uni fees ? Are you for lack of affordable housing ? Are you for the gig economy ?
Are you coming out as a communist? I think you'll find impoverishment is still horribly possible under that system too.
Im anti corporatism and pro reform.
So what anti-corporatist reforms would you suggest in, say, the smartphone industry?
personally Id have started all 5G licences in the far and remote ends of the UK. islands in Scotland, mountains in Wales, Hartlepool and told the phone cos they could get licences for London and the big cities until theyd completed the rural network.
John Gray is a great thinker. But he has a tendency to do what he accuses others of, being selective in his examples to make his point. (That is, he's guilty of falling in love with his narrative, and seeking out evidence that supports it.)
The 'well' in this case would be a vote of no confidence in HMG. It was confirmed today that the matter is not justice able.
Not in a Scottish court - tomorrow in an English court....
No reason why the English judgement would be any different to the Scottish one.
It'll be like VAR, refs covering for each other and refusing to disagree.
The Court of Session's judgment will (subject to leave to appeal being granted) quite rightly form precedent for the High Court.
The judgment is pretty clear, by the way. It's on the court's website now. Lord Doherty rules for HMG on pretty much every point. Not the best one to have crowdfunded.
Yeah but there plenty of vexious complainants with cash.
That doesn’t make sense when its the generation who have done the best from globalization who are voting for Brexit!
were simply protecting our childrens interests
Which is a glib answer.
I don't know if you have any children, but if you do, and they're over eighteen, why don't you ask them? Surely you've raised them well, and they are independent thinkers.
Say to them: "You'll hopefully have a few more decades on this Earth than me. I have my own strong views about this issue, but the consequences of this decision may last longer with you than they do me.
So, (son and/or daughter): how would you like me to vote? I'm not beholden to your answer, but I'd like to know. Persuade me."
Who knows, they may persuade you. But the answer is not paternalistically pretending you know best.
I have 3 children 28, 26 and 23 if you seriously imagine I dont talk to them or understand their concerns your far off the mark. One voted remain, one voted leave and one couldnt see what the fuss was about. The last one ( the civil engineer ) was probably the most sensible of us all.
Im also married to a remainer who'll probably vote LD. So its not as if I dont see things from the other side.
And as for paternalism Ill be as paternalistic as I like thats the sodding point when youre a father,
What I have found most extraordinary since 2016 is the lack of political empathy shown by most people I’ve met that voted Remain, especially so versus most Leave voters I have met. It was a finely balanced and complex issue gang, nothing wrong with falling either side of the line!
Clearly you have unbiased view! My experience, surprisingly is quite the reverse. Well whodathunkit?
That doesn’t make sense when its the generation who have done the best from globalization who are voting for Brexit!
were simply protecting our childrens interests
Which is a glib answer.
I don't know if you have any children, but if you do, and they're over eighteen, why don't you ask them? Surely you've raised them well, and they are independent thinkers.
Say to them: "You'll hopefully have a few more decades on this Earth than me. I have my own strong views about this issue, but the consequences of this decision may last longer with you than they do me.
So, (son and/or daughter): how would you like me to vote? I'm not beholden to your answer, but I'd like to know. Persuade me."
Who knows, they may persuade you. But the answer is not paternalistically pretending you know best.
I have 3 children 28, 26 and 23 if you seriously imagine I dont talk to them or understand their concerns your far off the mark. One voted remain, one voted leave and one couldnt see what the fuss was about. The last one ( the civil engineer ) was probably the most sensible of us all.
Im also married to a remainer who'll probably vote LD. So its not as if I dont see things from the other side.
And as for paternalism Ill be as paternalistic as I like thats the sodding point when youre a father,
What I have found most extraordinary since 2016 is the lack of political empathy shown by most people I’ve met that voted Remain, especially so versus most Leave voters I have met. It was a finely balanced and complex issue gang, nothing wrong with falling either side of the line!
Anecdotal experience that's not easily reconcilable with the abundant polling showing that (eg) Leavers would accept Northern Ireland going up in flames, Scottish independence or a member of their family losing their job for Brexit.
If I were Boris Johnson, I would rather resign than take the Brexit extension bill to the Queen.
In this way, he avoids asking for Royal assent, and avoids getting any blame for an extension.
That is, I think, what he will ultimately do if forced to, somewhere around 25 October. I'm sure the symbolism of St Crispin's Day would not be lost on him.
The 'well' in this case would be a vote of no confidence in HMG. It was confirmed today that the matter is not justice able.
Not in a Scottish court - tomorrow in an English court....
No reason why the English judgement would be any different to the Scottish one.
It'll be like VAR, refs covering for each other and refusing to disagree.
The Court of Session's judgment will (subject to leave to appeal being granted) quite rightly form precedent for the High Court.
The judgment is pretty clear, by the way. It's on the court's website now. Lord Doherty rules for HMG on pretty much every point. Not the best one to have crowdfunded.
Highly persuasive, although not technically binding nevertheless it would be very surprising if the High Court ruled the other way to the CoS. I hope so anyway. I'm a dripping wet Liberal but I would rather our victories came politically rather than judicially.
That doesn’t make sense when its the generation who have done the best from globalization who are voting for Brexit!
were simply protecting our childrens interests
Which is a glib answer.
I don't know if you have any children, but if you do, and they're over eighteen, why don't you ask them? Surely you've raised them well, and they are independent thinkers.
Say to them: "You'll hopefully have a few more decades on this Earth than me. I have my own strong views about this issue, but the consequences of this decision may last longer with you than they do me.
So, (son and/or daughter): how would you like me to vote? I'm not beholden to your answer, but I'd like to know. Persuade me."
Who knows, they may persuade you. But the answer is not paternalistically pretending you know best.
I have 3 children 28, 26 and 23 if you seriously imagine I dont talk to them or understand their concerns your far off the mark. One voted remain, one voted leave and one couldnt see what the fuss was about. The last one ( the civil engineer ) was probably the most sensible of us all.
Im also married to a remainer who'll probably vote LD. So its not as if I dont see things from the other side.
And as for paternalism Ill be as paternalistic as I like thats the sodding point when youre a father,
What I have found most extraordinary since 2016 is the lack of political empathy shown by most people I’ve met that voted Remain, especially so versus most Leave voters I have met. It was a finely balanced and complex issue gang, nothing wrong with falling either side of the line!
Anecdotal experience that's not easily reconcilable with the abundant polling showing that (eg) Leavers would accept Northern Ireland going up in flames, Scottish independence or a member of their family losing their job for Brexit.
If I were Boris Johnson, I would rather resign than take the Brexit extension bill to the Queen.
In this way, he avoids asking for Royal assent, and avoids getting any blame for an extension.
That is, I think, what he will ultimately do if forced to, somewhere around 25 October. I'm sure the symbolism of St Crispin's Day would not be lost on him.
But then he doesn't get to be World King any more...
That doesn’t make sense when its the generation who have done the best from globalization who are voting for Brexit!
were simply protecting our childrens interests
Which is a glib answer.
I don't know if you have any children, but if you do, and they're over eighteen, why don't you ask them? Surely you've raised them well, and they are independent thinkers.
Say to them: "You'll hopefully have a few more decades on this Earth than me. I have my own strong views about this issue, but the consequences of this decision may last longer with you than they do me.
So, (son and/or daughter): how would you like me to vote? I'm not beholden to your answer, but I'd like to know. Persuade me."
Who knows, they may persuade you. But the answer is not paternalistically pretending you know best.
I have 3 children 28, 26 and 23 if you seriously imagine I dont talk to them or understand their concerns your far off the mark. One voted remain, one voted leave and one couldnt see what the fuss was about. The last one ( the civil engineer ) was probably the most sensible of us all.
Im also married to a remainer who'll probably vote LD. So its not as if I dont see things from the other side.
And as for paternalism Ill be as paternalistic as I like thats the sodding point when youre a father,
What I have found most extraordinary since 2016 is the lack of political empathy shown by most people I’ve met that voted Remain, especially so versus most Leave voters I have met. It was a finely balanced and complex issue gang, nothing wrong with falling either side of the line!
Clearly you have unbiased view! My experience, surprisingly is quite the reverse. Well whodathunkit?
That doesn’t make sense when its the generation who have done the best from globalization who are voting for Brexit!
were simply protecting our childrens interests
pulling up the ladder behind us. (Can't be bothered to do the strikethrough and ftfy malarkey.)
Speak for yourself, this twaddle that old people dont know or dont care is just that. its the centrist remainy internationalists who have got us here, the current settlement is theirs.
There is a high possibility that very old people largely supported Remain. These were the ones that experienced war first hand rather than the spoilt babyboomer generation after them whose only experience of conflict was what they read in war comics
That doesn’t make sense when its the generation who have done the best from globalization who are voting for Brexit!
were simply protecting our childrens interests
Which is a glib answer.
I don't know if you have any children, but if you do, and they're over eighteen, why don't you ask them? Surely you've raised them well, and they are independent thinkers.
Say to them: "You'll hopefully have a few more decades on this Earth than me. I have my own strong views about this issue, but the consequences of this decision may last longer with you than they do me.
So, (son and/or daughter): how would you like me to vote? I'm not beholden to your answer, but I'd like to know. Persuade me."
Who knows, they may persuade you. But the answer is not paternalistically pretending you know best.
I have 3 children 28, 26 and 23 if you seriously imagine I dont talk to them or understand their concerns your far off the mark. One voted remain, one voted leave and one couldnt see what the fuss was about. The last one ( the civil engineer ) was probably the most sensible of us all.
Im also married to a remainer who'll probably vote LD. So its not as if I dont see things from the other side.
And as for paternalism Ill be as paternalistic as I like thats the sodding point when youre a father,
What I have found most extraordinary since 2016 is the lack of political empathy shown by most people I’ve met that voted Remain, especially so versus most Leave voters I have met. It was a finely balanced and complex issue gang, nothing wrong with falling either side of the line!
Anecdotal experience that's not easily reconcilable with the abundant polling showing that (eg) Leavers would accept Northern Ireland going up in flames, Scottish independence or a member of their family losing their job for Brexit.
You love leavers it just you wouldnt want your family to marry one
That doesn’t make sense when its the generation who have done the best from globalization who are voting for Brexit!
were simply protecting our childrens interests
Which is a glib answer.
I don't know if you have any children, but if you do, and they're over eighteen, why don't you ask them? Surely you've raised them well, and they are independent thinkers.
Say to them: "You'll hopefully have a few more decades on this Earth than me. I have my own strong views about this issue, but the consequences of this decision may last longer with you than they do me.
So, (son and/or daughter): how would you like me to vote? I'm not beholden to your answer, but I'd like to know. Persuade me."
Who knows, they may persuade you. But the answer is not paternalistically pretending you know best.
I have 3 children 28, 26 and 23 if you seriously imagine I dont talk to them or understand their concerns your far off the mark. One voted remain, one voted leave and one couldnt see what the fuss was about. The last one ( the civil engineer ) was probably the most sensible of us all.
Im also married to a remainer who'll probably vote LD. So its not as if I dont see things from the other side.
And as for paternalism Ill be as paternalistic as I like thats the sodding point when youre a father,
What I have found most extraordinary since 2016 is the lack of political empathy shown by most people I’ve met that voted Remain, especially so versus most Leave voters I have met. It was a finely balanced and complex issue gang, nothing wrong with falling either side of the line!
Anecdotal experience that's not easily reconcilable with the abundant polling showing that (eg) Leavers would accept Northern Ireland going up in flames, Scottish independence or a member of their family losing their job for Brexit.
What about “kiss a Tory” type polls?
Given the age differences between your average socialist and your average Tory, you can understand why not many of them would have grandfather fetishes.
If I were Boris Johnson, I would rather resign than take the Brexit extension bill to the Queen.
In this way, he avoids asking for Royal assent, and avoids getting any blame for an extension.
That is, I think, what he will ultimately do if forced to, somewhere around 25 October. I'm sure the symbolism of St Crispin's Day would not be lost on him.
Gemma Collins reveals James Argent's weight ruined their sex life and admits she 'fancies him more' since he slimmed down for Sink Or Swim err I mean isn't the key date the 19th ?
So this is my understanding of what happens next. I would appreciate comments because I am still very confused.
1) Extension bill passes the Commons today 2) Government delays it in the Lords as much as they can 3) Bill passes Lords 4) VONC held, government 'loses' 5) Election held mid-October
Then two likely results:
6a) Govt wins a majority on No Deal platform 7a) Extension bill repealed 8a) EU decides to compromise or not, but probably not 9a) We leave the EU end of October
Or:
6b) Another hung parliament 7b) PM forced to extend 8b) Boris presumably resigns 9b) Corbyn tries to form a government, fails 10b) Someone else tries and Corbyn gives in 11b) We extend for six months 12b) Corbyn VONCs GONAFAE 13b) No one can form a government 14b) New election?
That doesn’t make sense when its the generation who have done the best from globalization who are voting for Brexit!
were simply protecting our childrens interests
By shafting the economy, their FOM, and future livelihoods?
By voting down the system which makes impoverishment possible. Are you for the burden of Uni fees ? Are you for lack of affordable housing ? Are you for the gig economy ?
Are you coming out as a communist? I think you'll find impoverishment is still horribly possible under that system too.
Im anti corporatism and pro reform.
So what anti-corporatist reforms would you suggest in, say, the smartphone industry?
personally Id have started all 5G licences in the far and remote ends of the UK. islands in Scotland, mountains in Wales, Hartlepool and told the phone cos they could get licences for London and the big cities until theyd completed the rural network.
reverse cherry picking.
And the infrastructure would have been built using which British suppliers?
That doesn’t make sense when its the generation who have done the best from globalization who are voting for Brexit!
were simply protecting our childrens interests
pulling up the ladder behind us. (Can't be bothered to do the strikethrough and ftfy malarkey.)
Speak for yourself, this twaddle that old people dont know or dont care is just that. its the centrist remainy internationalists who have got us here, the current settlement is theirs.
There is a high possibility that very old people largely supported Remain. These were the ones that experienced war first hand rather than the spoilt babyboomer generation after them whose only experience of conflict was what they read in war comics
personally I grew up in NI in the seventies.
have you ever been called out in the evening to shovel up the remains of your town centre after a bomb blast ?.
That doesn’t make sense when its the generation who have done the best from globalization who are voting for Brexit!
were simply protecting our childrens interests
Which is a glib answer.
I don't know if you have any children, but if you do, and they're over eighteen, why don't you ask them? Surely you've raised them well, and they are independent thinkers.
Say to them: "You'll hopefully have a few more decades on this Earth than me. I have my own strong views about this issue, but the consequences of this decision may last longer with you than they do me.
So, (son and/or daughter): how would you like me to vote? I'm not beholden to your answer, but I'd like to know. Persuade me."
Who knows, they may persuade you. But the answer is not paternalistically pretending you know best.
I have 3 children 28, 26 and 23 if you seriously imagine I dont talk to them or understand their concerns your far off the mark. One voted remain, one voted leave and one couldnt see what the fuss was about. The last one ( the civil engineer ) was probably the most sensible of us all.
Im also married to a remainer who'll probably vote LD. So its not as if I dont see things from the other side.
And as for paternalism Ill be as paternalistic as I like thats the sodding point when youre a father,
What I have found most extraordinary since 2016 is the lack of political empathy shown by most people I’ve met that voted Remain, especially so versus most Leave voters I have met. It was a finely balanced and complex issue gang, nothing wrong with falling either side of the line!
Anecdotal experience that's not easily reconcilable with the abundant polling showing that (eg) Leavers would accept Northern Ireland going up in flames, Scottish independence or a member of their family losing their job for Brexit.
What about “kiss a Tory” type polls?
Given the age differences between your average socialist and your average Tory, you can understand why not many of them would have grandfather fetishes.
Blimey, this is a tiring and demoralising day for someone of my politics. On the bright side, I was heartened to see how close public opinion is regarding no-deal https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49551893 * - still learning how to paste more than the link - doh!. I expected much less in favour.
If we consider that a proxy for the coming election, seems to me the winner will whichever side of the debate (TBP/Tories vs Rebel alliance) can, by doing a deal or otherwise, manage to garner their voters most efficiently.
Mr alanbrooke (note lack of punctuation)… I have a few friends who voted Leave. They are quite pleasant people who when they were younger I would have regarded as "young-fogeys". I guess many remain orientated people think they might dislike Leave voters is because people voted Leave in the full knowledge they were supporting the prejudice and xenophobia of Nigel Farage, which ain't a terribly good look if you believe such things to be repulsive.
That doesn’t make sense when its the generation who have done the best from globalization who are voting for Brexit!
were simply protecting our childrens interests
By shafting the economy, their FOM, and future livelihoods?
By voting down the system which makes impoverishment possible. Are you for the burden of Uni fees ? Are you for lack of affordable housing ? Are you for the gig economy ?
Are you coming out as a communist? I think you'll find impoverishment is still horribly possible under that system too.
Im anti corporatism and pro reform.
So what anti-corporatist reforms would you suggest in, say, the smartphone industry?
personally Id have started all 5G licences in the far and remote ends of the UK. islands in Scotland, mountains in Wales, Hartlepool and told the phone cos they could get licences for London and the big cities until theyd completed the rural network.
reverse cherry picking.
And the infrastructure would have been built using which British suppliers?
That article gets recycled about once a month, often by political studies academics who should know better. So far as I can see there is no controlling for age. It's as likely as not that what you're seeing is a function of age, not Brexicity.
Crofflers will have adult children where the question of who they might marry is a real one and where parents have already had to make mental compromises about possible partners (whether about tattoos, political views or use of cutlery). Millennials will either not have children or will have babes in arms, for whom the question is entirely theoretical. The same question means entirely different things to different audiences.
If GE not called until after PM extends on Sat 19 Oct then earliest GE would be Thurs 28 Nov.
Vote in Commons on Mon 21 Oct, then allow two days for formal dissolution and proclamation by Queen, then 25 working days.
That does seem like an awfully long time to leave it - and how keen would everyone be on a GE so far into winter?
This is a betting site, then bet on February March or April. The added bonus then of course is public have had time to take a good look at Boris and his government in action.
So this is my understanding of what happens next. I would appreciate comments because I am still very confused.
1) Extension bill passes the Commons today 2) Government delays it in the Lords as much as they can 3) Bill passes Lords 4) VONC held, government 'loses' 5) Election held mid-October
Then two likely results:
6a) Govt wins a majority on No Deal platform 7a) Extension bill repealed 8a) EU decides to compromise or not, but probably not 9a) We leave the EU end of October
Or:
6b) Another hung parliament 7b) PM forced to extend 8b) Boris presumably resigns 9b) Corbyn tries to form a government, fails 10b) Someone else tries and Corbyn gives in 11b) We extend for six months 12b) Corbyn VONCs GONAFAE 13b) No one can form a government 14b) New election?
6c. Corbyn resigns after failing to take Labour to victory. 9c. New Labour leader attempts to form coalition.
That doesn’t make sense when its the generation who have done the best from globalization who are voting for Brexit!
were simply protecting our childrens interests
pulling up the ladder behind us. (Can't be bothered to do the strikethrough and ftfy malarkey.)
Speak for yourself, this twaddle that old people dont know or dont care is just that. its the centrist remainy internationalists who have got us here, the current settlement is theirs.
There is a high possibility that very old people largely supported Remain. These were the ones that experienced war first hand rather than the spoilt babyboomer generation after them whose only experience of conflict was what they read in war comics
personally I grew up in NI in the seventies.
have you ever been called out in the evening to shovel up the remains of your town centre after a bomb blast ?.
I spent quite a bit of time there in the early 90s, but never had to use a shovel thank fully.
Just had a very unpleasant experience. Was innocently listening to the calming tones of Sarah Montague at lunchtime, when I heard a repulsive blast from the past. That ginormous turd Michael Forsyth, who the voters of Stirling soundly dismissed in 1997, was on my bloody radio, splurging his usual lies, hatred and bile.
This is why the House of Lords has to go. Reptiles like Forsyth suck at the taxpayers’ tweets for decades after losing elections. The vile serpent had the audacity to present himself as a champion of democracy.
A bit strong Stuart. I don't know Lord F but the feedback I've received is that he is a very courteous and extremely bright guy. Came from a generation of Tories influenced by the Manchester school of economists at St Andrews in the 70s. An interesting fellow and not to be dismissed in these kind of terms, however much you may disagree with him. He is also, unassailably, an authentic working-class Scot.
If I were Boris Johnson, I would rather resign than take the Brexit extension bill to the Queen.
In this way, he avoids asking for Royal assent, and avoids getting any blame for an extension.
That is, I think, what he will ultimately do if forced to, somewhere around 25 October. I'm sure the symbolism of St Crispin's Day would not be lost on him.
Gemma Collins reveals James Argent's weight ruined their sex life and admits she 'fancies him more' since he slimmed down for Sink Or Swim err I mean isn't the key date the 19th ?
Comments
Too late. Damage has been done probably.
I don't know if you have any children, but if you do, and they're over eighteen, why don't you ask them? Surely you've raised them well, and they are independent thinkers.
Say to them: "You'll hopefully have a few more decades on this Earth than me. I have my own strong views about this issue, but the consequences of this decision may last longer with you than they do me.
So, (son and/or daughter): how would you like me to vote? I'm not beholden to your answer, but I'd like to know. Persuade me."
Who knows, they may persuade you. But the answer is not paternalistically pretending you know best.
CorbynStarmer?! is a wee feartie.I always lose money on "time of election" etc markets so this one will be no different
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/dominic-cummings-stank-of-booze-in-jeremy-corbyn-stand-off/ar-AAGNbkU?ocid=spartanntp
It's a packed afternoon in Parliament. So what's going to happen, and when?
3pm - MPs begin to debate the Brexit delay bill - called the European Union Withdrawal No 6 Bill;
5pm - the first vote on the bill is expected;
7pm - there is a second round of votes - and then, if it's approved, the bill moves on to the House of Lords for the next stage;
8.30pm - if the bill is passed by MPs, the government is expected to table a motion asking to hold a general election, followed by a vote.
(As ever, all these timings are subject to change!)"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-49557734
If Johnson refuses to move after Corbyn has won an election and doesn't extend the legislation I expect Europe would give us an extension anyway. That would be absolubtely commensurate with NOT interfering in our domestic affairs since the British public are clearly voting for an extension if Tories + DUp doesn't have a Commons majority.
If Johnson loses the election on the 14th then I expect he will sign. If he 'wins' then he'll probably sign too but will be able to whip his MPs (So as not to be in breach of the act) against so the letter won't take legal effect.
Im also married to a remainer who'll probably vote LD. So its not as if I dont see things from the other side.
And as for paternalism Ill be as paternalistic as I like thats the sodding point when youre a father,
So what anti-corporatist reforms would you suggest in, say, the smartphone industry?
https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1169254264759357441?s=20
Will Mann be on my ballot paper at the next GE ?
"If I were the king of the world:
Tell you what I'd do
I'd throw away the cars and the bars and the war
Make sweet love to you
Sing it now
Joy to the world
All the boys and girls
Joy to the fishes in the deep blue sea
Joy to you and me
You know I love the ladies
Love to have my fun
I'm a high life flyer and a rainbow rider
A straight shootin' son-of-a-gun
I said a straight shootin' son-of-a-gun"
I'd vote for that...
https://twitter.com/RLong_Bailey/status/1169243487121920001?s=20
(Found it)
I wonder if that decision by Berko is justiciable ;-)
The judgment is pretty clear, by the way. It's on the court's website now. Lord Doherty rules for HMG on pretty much every point. Not the best one to have crowdfunded.
Add on Schools/Hospitals/Welfare etc etc....
Where's that coming from?
reverse cherry picking.
Good afternoon, everyone.
In this way, he avoids asking for Royal assent, and avoids getting any blame for an extension.
https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1169258177076047872
Here's what's happening today (h/t Beth Rigby)
1. Anti-No Deal bill - passes
2. Boris motions for a GE - Fails cus Labour too frit.
3. Err, that's it.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brexit-remainers-more-bothered-by-differing-views-in-family-poll-shows-h6kh2vrp7
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brexit-remainers-more-bothered-by-differing-views-in-family-poll-shows-h6kh2vrp7
Gemma Collins reveals James Argent's weight ruined their sex life and admits she 'fancies him more' since he slimmed down for Sink Or Swim
https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1169257747847798784
Vote in Commons on Mon 21 Oct, then allow two days for formal dissolution and proclamation by Queen, then 25 working days.
That does seem like an awfully long time to leave it - and how keen would everyone be on a GE so far into winter?
1) Extension bill passes the Commons today
2) Government delays it in the Lords as much as they can
3) Bill passes Lords
4) VONC held, government 'loses'
5) Election held mid-October
Then two likely results:
6a) Govt wins a majority on No Deal platform
7a) Extension bill repealed
8a) EU decides to compromise or not, but probably not
9a) We leave the EU end of October
Or:
6b) Another hung parliament
7b) PM forced to extend
8b) Boris presumably resigns
9b) Corbyn tries to form a government, fails
10b) Someone else tries and Corbyn gives in
11b) We extend for six months
12b) Corbyn VONCs GONAFAE
13b) No one can form a government
14b) New election?
have you ever been called out in the evening to shovel up the remains of your town centre after a bomb blast ?.
If we consider that a proxy for the coming election, seems to me the winner will whichever side of the debate (TBP/Tories vs Rebel alliance) can, by doing a deal or otherwise, manage to garner their voters most efficiently.
* 38% in favour, 44% against
Crofflers will have adult children where the question of who they might marry is a real one and where parents have already had to make mental compromises about possible partners (whether about tattoos, political views or use of cutlery). Millennials will either not have children or will have babes in arms, for whom the question is entirely theoretical. The same question means entirely different things to different audiences.
NEW THREAD
9c. New Labour leader attempts to form coalition.
New Lab used "Queens Consent" to kill some of Tam Dalyell's efforts wrt Iraq.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jan/15/ministers-exploited-royal-veto-legislation
(It does not help the Guardian inserting some opinions into the news, suggesting this is a 'royal veto on new laws' but hey ... the Guardian).
I'm not really clear that the Speaker has the authority to make that ruling.