It is an extraordinary achievement for Britain's first prime minister with Muslim ancestry to be so widely regarded as a racist.
Johnson's racism does not derive from some inherent belief that one race or group is inferior to another, it is much more that he is very happy to demean races or groups for political advantage and to give or share platforms to those who do believe in racial superiority.
You mean his racism is cynical rather than sincere?
What's more we have had thread headers from SO about his joining and leaving Labour under Corbyn, which have been interesting.
Insight from those like him, @NickPalmer@david_herdson who are practitioners and not just commentators is valuable, interesting and one of the best things about this site. Attacking people personally adds nothing.
There has been some somewhat unpleasant criticism of those who write headers. Criticism is absolutely fine but if people don't like what is published they should offer their own articles rather than simply carp. @Philip_Thompson and @MarqueeMark, who are both very much Leavers, did so and produced two very fine headers.
If people want to stick their head above the parapet they should be able to handle mild criticism. I found the other threads you mention equally self indulgent. Am I allowed a view?
I'm rather confused why you are commenting then?
I come here for an exchange of views. People posting their views is basically the point it seems to me. If nobody did this would be one very hollow site.
Exchanging views on politics is not the same as writing essays about oneself. I just find making a song and dance about private matters a bit cringeworthy and self important, that’s all. Maybe I’m guilty of doing so here!
When people resigned from parties 30 years ago, if they photocopied their resignation letter and passed it around the pub, it would be a vanity act. I don’t see much difference with that and writing headers about it or reposting it online.
You should chill out and have a glass of wine. Did I tell you about the time I had that great bottle of 1945...
Not high up in the minds of the General Public, though. Justice = Police Officers catching muggers yes, 'justice for those caught reverting to 18th C standards, not so much.
PB used to be a great way of assessing public opinion, as it offered a uniquely wide spectrum of well informed viewpoints. Sadly, this is yet another victim of Brexit.
It is impossible to get a grasp of how Boris is REALLY doing, because 95% of you are crazed by your hatred of him, and the other 5% therefore feel obliged to put up a desperate defence of him, whatever he does.
Shame. I shall have to rely on polls.
Don't worry, I'm here and I am objective almost to a fault.
Boris today was not great. He lacked authority as he usually does but there was not the compensating brio or wit.
What's more we have had thread headers from SO about his joining and leaving Labour under Corbyn, which have been interesting.
Insight from those like him, @NickPalmer@david_herdson who are practitioners and not just commentators is valuable, interesting and one of the best things about this site. Attacking people personally adds nothing.
There has been some somewhat unpleasant criticism of those who write headers. Criticism is absolutely fine but if people don't like what is published they should offer their own articles rather than simply carp. @Philip_Thompson and @MarqueeMark, who are both very much Leavers, did so and produced two very fine headers.
If people want to stick their head above the parapet they should be able to handle mild criticism. I found the other threads you mention equally self indulgent. Am I allowed a view?
I'm rather confused why you are commenting then?
I come here for an exchange of views. People posting their views is basically the point it seems to me. If nobody did this would be one very hollow site.
Exchanging views on politics is not the same as writing essays about oneself. I just find making a song and dance about private matters a bit cringeworthy and self important, that’s all. Maybe I’m guilty of doing so here!
When people resigned from parties 30 years ago, if they photocopied their resignation letter and passed it around the pub, it would be a vanity act. I don’t see much difference with that and writing headers about it or reposting it online.
You should chill out and have a glass of wine. Did I tell you about the time I had that great bottle of 1945...
I never talk about wine that cost less than 10 grand a pop dahling
PB used to be a great way of assessing public opinion, as it offered a uniquely wide spectrum of well informed viewpoints. Sadly, this is yet another victim of Brexit.
It is impossible to get a grasp of how Boris is REALLY doing, because 95% of you are crazed by your hatred of him, and the other 5% therefore feel obliged to put up a desperate defence of him, whatever he does.
Shame. I shall have to rely on polls.
What you on about? There’s more balance here than most places.
Well, if you’re right, we can expect the next few polls to show Boris plummeting overnight, and the Tories in free fall, given that he has just revealed what a flailing clown he is, and what a terrible racist coward, bumbling hypocrite, stupid posh boy, etc etc etc
My guess is his ratings won’t collapse, because this is all vapid hysteria from the echo chamber that is PB today. It is a real shame.
PB used to be a great way of assessing public opinion, as it offered a uniquely wide spectrum of well informed viewpoints. Sadly, this is yet another victim of Brexit.
It is impossible to get a grasp of how Boris is REALLY doing, because 95% of you are crazed by your hatred of him, and the other 5% therefore feel obliged to put up a desperate defence of him, whatever he does.
Shame. I shall have to rely on polls.
Don't worry, I'm here and I am objective almost to a fault.
Boris today was not great. He lacked authority as he usually does but there was not the compensating brio or wit.
It was all a bit tacky.
I think Boris is a tosser and was a tosser at PMQs. But he can certainly be an entertaining tosser which is also what he was today.
I wonder how widespread this view of Cummings is among Tory MPs. I always regarded Gale as a no fuss plodder, so for me this looks quite significant. But others will know a whole lot better. https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1169177243307757568
I'm not averse to unconventional style or even swearing. But some people seem to take delight in acting so as part of their brand, it is just self satisfied posturing about how cool they think they are.
Not high up in the minds of the General Public, though. Justice = Police Officers catching muggers yes, 'justice for those caught reverting to 18th C standards, not so much.
Justice delayed is Justice denied and some court cases now take 2 years to be heard.
PB used to be a great way of assessing public opinion, as it offered a uniquely wide spectrum of well informed viewpoints. Sadly, this is yet another victim of Brexit.
It is impossible to get a grasp of how Boris is REALLY doing, because 95% of you are crazed by your hatred of him, and the other 5% therefore feel obliged to put up a desperate defence of him, whatever he does.
Shame. I shall have to rely on polls.
What you on about? There’s more balance here than most places.
Well, if you’re right, we can expect the next few polls to show Boris plummeting overnight, and the Tories in free fall, given that he has just revealed what a flailing clown he is, and what a terrible racist coward, bumbling hypocrite, stupid posh boy, etc etc etc
My guess is his ratings won’t collapse, because this is all vapid hysteria from the echo chamber that is PB today. It is a real shame.
This is nonsense. Half of the regular posters on here are Boris supporters for god sake. You just spend more time blathering to the wall about echo chambres and how ‘out of touch’ everyone is.
I come here specifically to hear points from other perspectives, from a variety of walks of life and geographical locations.
PB used to be a great way of assessing public opinion, as it offered a uniquely wide spectrum of well informed viewpoints. Sadly, this is yet another victim of Brexit.
It is impossible to get a grasp of how Boris is REALLY doing, because 95% of you are crazed by your hatred of him, and the other 5% therefore feel obliged to put up a desperate defence of him, whatever he does.
Shame. I shall have to rely on polls.
Don't worry, I'm here and I am objective almost to a fault.
Boris today was not great. He lacked authority as he usually does but there was not the compensating brio or wit.
It was all a bit tacky.
I can see the Tories up to 40 per cent in the polls this weekend based on some conversations I have had with Leavers who would otherwise be supporting TBP.
Also hearing PMQs reminded me of Trump in the debates. It was awful: He ignored the questions and just waffled and repeated talking points.
But he kept hitting the talking points. And the talking points were tested to reach the voters he needed, whereas the "gives cogent answers and answers the sodding question" vote is probably not a key swing demographic.
This is how Blair was successful. Answer the questions you want to hear.
Johnson is essentially trying to replace the traditional mainstream Tories like Richard N and BigG (to whom genuine sympathies for what must have been a painful decision) with new voters who haven't voted Tory before. With Farage fishing in the same pool, it's not obvious that it will work, and we won't really know till we see who turns out on election day.
This. My instinct is this pool is not as deep as it appears. If I recall from the polls something like 35-40% of public could entertain no deal. Which means 60-65% won't entertain it. Surely better tactics to be fishing in the bigger pool.
Can anyone remember a potential election where the outcome was more uncertain than this one?!
I really have doubts that he can win a majority, indeed whether he can survive the aftermath of an indecisive GE
You are no longer a Tory but a LD in all but name now so no surprise there
Absolutely, if Ken Clarke and Rory Stewart are not conservatives in your eyes it is not they or I who have lost our marbles, but you have become a Farage sycophant
No disrespect Big G but if youre on a cruise shouldnt you be relaxing and enjoying it ? Really nothing much will have changed on here by the time you get back, nor can anyone on this site change much. Give Mrs G a break :-)
It seems that it is holiday season on PB - cruises, typing on iPads by pools in 35 degrees. Wasn't Malcolm on a cruise the other day?
Don't we all live the life.
Topping , I wish, though I did say the other day that I may need a boat for gardening due to the amount of rain.
I wonder how widespread this view of Cummings is among Tory MPs. I always regarded Gale as a no fuss plodder, so for me this looks quite significant. But others will know a whole lot better. https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1169177243307757568
I'm not averse to unconventional style or even swearing. But some people seem to take delight in acting so as part of their brand, it is just self satisfied posturing about how cool they think they are.
Sat next to Gale at a dinner quite a long while ago. He was a pleasant civilised conversationalist, although we didn't discuss politics.
I really have doubts that he can win a majority, indeed whether he can survive the aftermath of an indecisive GE
You are no longer a Tory but a LD in all but name now so no surprise there
Absolutely, if Ken Clarke and Rory Stewart are not conservatives in your eyes it is not they or I who have lost our marbles, but you have become a Farage sycophant
No disrespect Big G but if youre on a cruise shouldnt you be relaxing and enjoying it ? Really nothing much will have changed on here by the time you get back, nor can anyone on this site change much. Give Mrs G a break :-)
Alan, he may be on the sun lounger with an ice cold pint or a nice G&T, enjoying shooting the breeze.
I really have doubts that he can win a majority, indeed whether he can survive the aftermath of an indecisive GE
You are no longer a Tory but a LD in all but name now so no surprise there
Absolutely, if Ken Clarke and Rory Stewart are not conservatives in your eyes it is not they or I who have lost our marbles, but you have become a Farage sycophant
No disrespect Big G but if youre on a cruise shouldnt you be relaxing and enjoying it ? Really nothing much will have changed on here by the time you get back, nor can anyone on this site change much. Give Mrs G a break :-)
It seems that it is holiday season on PB - cruises, typing on iPads by pools in 35 degrees. Wasn't Malcolm on a cruise the other day?
I really have doubts that he can win a majority, indeed whether he can survive the aftermath of an indecisive GE
You are no longer a Tory but a LD in all but name now so no surprise there
Absolutely, if Ken Clarke and Rory Stewart are not conservatives in your eyes it is not they or I who have lost our marbles, but you have become a Farage sycophant
No disrespect Big G but if youre on a cruise shouldnt you be relaxing and enjoying it ? Really nothing much will have changed on here by the time you get back, nor can anyone on this site change much. Give Mrs G a break :-)
Alan, he may be on the sun lounger with an ice cold pint or a nice G&T, enjoying shooting the breeze.
malc if I get too caught up in stuff on holidays its a god awful row with the Mrs. I reluctantly have to concede the point that its her holiday too.
It's absolutely the right thing for Labour to do, not least in their own electoral interests. They might screw it up, of course, but if they don't it's a neat way both of stuffing Boris and of escaping from their own shambles of a Brexit position.
PB used to be a great way of assessing public opinion, as it offered a uniquely wide spectrum of well informed viewpoints. Sadly, this is yet another victim of Brexit.
It is impossible to get a grasp of how Boris is REALLY doing, because 95% of you are crazed by your hatred of him, and the other 5% therefore feel obliged to put up a desperate defence of him, whatever he does.
Shame. I shall have to rely on polls.
What you on about? There’s more balance here than most places.
Well, if you’re right, we can expect the next few polls to show Boris plummeting overnight, and the Tories in free fall, given that he has just revealed what a flailing clown he is, and what a terrible racist coward, bumbling hypocrite, stupid posh boy, etc etc etc
My guess is his ratings won’t collapse, because this is all vapid hysteria from the echo chamber that is PB today. It is a real shame.
This is nonsense. Half of the regular posters on here are Boris supporters for god sake.
And I'm not entirely convinced they're all different people.
I can see the Tories up to 40 per cent in the polls this weekend based on some conversations I have had with Leavers who would otherwise be supporting TBP.
Sure. Being tacky does not mean he won't win an election.
PB used to be a great way of assessing public opinion, as it offered a uniquely wide spectrum of well informed viewpoints. Sadly, this is yet another victim of Brexit.
It is impossible to get a grasp of how Boris is REALLY doing, because 95% of you are crazed by your hatred of him, and the other 5% therefore feel obliged to put up a desperate defence of him, whatever he does.
Shame. I shall have to rely on polls.
Don't worry, I'm here and I am objective almost to a fault.
Boris today was not great. He lacked authority as he usually does but there was not the compensating brio or wit.
It was all a bit tacky.
Thanks Kinabalu.
Earlier I asked for sensible and impartial assessments of BJ's performance at PMQs and I got it. When you have been participating in the Site as long as I have you get to know who you can trust and it's really a pleasingly high number of posters, despite all the inevitable bluster and trolling.
It's absolutely the right thing for Labour to do, not least in their own electoral interests. They might screw it up, of course, but if they don't it's a neat way both of stuffing Boris and of escaping from their own shambles of a Brexit position.
I really have doubts that he can win a majority, indeed whether he can survive the aftermath of an indecisive GE
You are no longer a Tory but a LD in all but name now so no surprise there
Absolutely, if Ken Clarke and Rory Stewart are not conservatives in your eyes it is not they or I who have lost our marbles, but you have become a Farage sycophant
No disrespect Big G but if youre on a cruise shouldnt you be relaxing and enjoying it ? Really nothing much will have changed on here by the time you get back, nor can anyone on this site change much. Give Mrs G a break :-)
It seems that it is holiday season on PB - cruises, typing on iPads by pools in 35 degrees. Wasn't Malcolm on a cruise the other day?
Don't we all live the life.
pah, some of us have to work
occasionally :-)
I am slogging away here, living the dream.
You should be near cashing in the pension though ?
Mrs B is having a rough time given the worker free org structure in her part of the business, she's hoping theyll come up with another restructuring
I really have doubts that he can win a majority, indeed whether he can survive the aftermath of an indecisive GE
You are no longer a Tory but a LD in all but name now so no surprise there
Absolutely, if Ken Clarke and Rory Stewart are not conservatives in your eyes it is not they or I who have lost our marbles, but you have become a Farage sycophant
No disrespect Big G but if youre on a cruise shouldnt you be relaxing and enjoying it ? Really nothing much will have changed on here by the time you get back, nor can anyone on this site change much. Give Mrs G a break :-)
It seems that it is holiday season on PB - cruises, typing on iPads by pools in 35 degrees. Wasn't Malcolm on a cruise the other day?
Don't we all live the life.
Topping , I wish, though I did say the other day that I may need a boat for gardening due to the amount of rain.
Sadly we are blocked from making significant holiday plans as my wife is waiting for an appointment for surgery at the local NHS hospital. We could go for a short break of course, but the need to see the post and be able to move forward is detracting from the will to do that. At least she knows she getting an appointment; she also has a letter for another, unrelated, issue where she has been told she won't be seen for at least six months, due to shortage of staff, and consequently no appointments will be offered.
That’s surprisingly sensible from Labour. Wait and delay. Make Boris go to Brussels and ask for the extension he never wanted. Terrible Optics for BJ
But there is one alternative outcome. What if Boris refuses to ask?
Then, as per the surrender bill, Brussels will impose an extension, to be rubber-stamped by parliament. What if it is 3 years? Or 5? 10? Where are we then?! And what if it has conditions?
I really have doubts that he can win a majority, indeed whether he can survive the aftermath of an indecisive GE
You are no longer a Tory but a LD in all but name now so no surprise there
Absolutely, if Ken Clarke and Rory Stewart are not conservatives in your eyes it is not they or I who have lost our marbles, but you have become a Farage sycophant
No disrespect Big G but if youre on a cruise shouldnt you be relaxing and enjoying it ? Really nothing much will have changed on here by the time you get back, nor can anyone on this site change much. Give Mrs G a break :-)
Alan, he may be on the sun lounger with an ice cold pint or a nice G&T, enjoying shooting the breeze.
malc if I get too caught up in stuff on holidays its a god awful row with the Mrs. I reluctantly have to concede the point that its her holiday too.
Alan, I draw the line if I am away on holiday for sure, no laptop etc.
It's absolutely the right thing for Labour to do, not least in their own electoral interests. They might screw it up, of course, but if they don't it's a neat way both of stuffing Boris and of escaping from their own shambles of a Brexit position.
It seems to be obvious to everyone but the Labour leadership.
It's absolutely the right thing for Labour to do, not least in their own electoral interests. They might screw it up, of course, but if they don't it's a neat way both of stuffing Boris and of escaping from their own shambles of a Brexit position.
Unless Nicola scuppers it
I don't think she will. Of course she'll want to lay into Labour for domestic electoral purposes, but I don't think there's any more to her tweets than that.
That’s surprisingly sensible from Labour. Wait and delay. Make Boris go to Brussels and ask for the extension he never wanted. Terrible Optics for BJ
But there is one alternative outcome. What if Boris refuses to ask?
Then, as per the surrender bill, Brussels will impose an extension, to be rubber-stamped by parliament. What if it is 3 years? Or 5? 10? Where are we then?! And what if it has conditions?
more likely what if he waffles and the EU dont realise he has asked ?
It's absolutely the right thing for Labour to do, not least in their own electoral interests. They might screw it up, of course, but if they don't it's a neat way both of stuffing Boris and of escaping from their own shambles of a Brexit position.
It seems to be obvious to everyone but the Labour leadership.
That’s surprisingly sensible from Labour. Wait and delay. Make Boris go to Brussels and ask for the extension he never wanted. Terrible Optics for BJ
But there is one alternative outcome. What if Boris refuses to ask?
Then, as per the surrender bill, Brussels will impose an extension, to be rubber-stamped by parliament. What if it is 3 years? Or 5? 10? Where are we then?! And what if it has conditions?
What if the EU don't agree to give us an extension at all? I think everyone is trying to be far too clever about the election date. As long as Boris does it in the form of a bill that as a fixed date in it, just go with it in October.
And really it's only a sign of how in-touch he is with the people. "Big girl's blouse" is so authentically demotic. Not at all the kind of language one expects to hear in second-rate sit coms from a decade or two ago.
That’s surprisingly sensible from Labour. Wait and delay. Make Boris go to Brussels and ask for the extension he never wanted. Terrible Optics for BJ
But there is one alternative outcome. What if Boris refuses to ask?
Then, as per the surrender bill, Brussels will impose an extension, to be rubber-stamped by parliament. What if it is 3 years? Or 5? 10? Where are we then?! And what if it has conditions?
Then Boris owns the extension - but has the ability during the campaign to say that he will change things.
However we won't have left on October 31st and Boris said we would come what may..
PB used to be a great way of assessing public opinion, as it offered a uniquely wide spectrum of well informed viewpoints. Sadly, this is yet another victim of Brexit.
It is impossible to get a grasp of how Boris is REALLY doing, because 95% of you are crazed by your hatred of him, and the other 5% therefore feel obliged to put up a desperate defence of him, whatever he does.
Shame. I shall have to rely on polls.
Polls say he's doing fine to be fair.
Till you look at the subsample of Scottish remain voters who voted Green at the last election where he is universally reviled.
So was brown. It was the idea of brown from his stint at 11 that made people think they had a good one when he first went into 10. But after observing him doing the number 10 stuff the opinion shifted to him being the worst ever. Boris needs poll leads based on experience of him tested in the job, which you can’t argue we have seen enough of yet.
For all the talk of Corbyn being a coward, Boris is the man who lacks confidence in himself. You don’t believe me today but keep an eye on that.
Well, if you’re right, we can expect the next few polls to show Boris plummeting overnight, and the Tories in free fall, given that he has just revealed what a flailing clown he is, and what a terrible racist coward, bumbling hypocrite, stupid posh boy, etc etc etc
My guess is his ratings won’t collapse, because this is all vapid hysteria from the echo chamber that is PB today. It is a real shame.
I don't think that necessarily follows.
It's more that PB types will actually watch PMQs (not just the clips) and are also (on the whole) a little brighter than the average punter, thus less likely to be impressed with shallow bluster.
So Boris can be awful without his poll ratings suffering.
It's absolutely the right thing for Labour to do, not least in their own electoral interests. They might screw it up, of course, but if they don't it's a neat way both of stuffing Boris and of escaping from their own shambles of a Brexit position.
A very good case can be made for stabilising Brexit and not being on the point of crashing out while am election is going on. That it's also in Labour's narrow interest is the political art of mating the public interest to your own.
And really it's only a sign of how in-touch he is with the people. "Big girl's blouse" is so authentically demotic. Not at all the kind of language one expects to hear in second-rate sit coms from a decade or two ago.
Gallowgate's MP is Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle North).
It's absolutely the right thing for Labour to do, not least in their own electoral interests. They might screw it up, of course, but if they don't it's a neat way both of stuffing Boris and of escaping from their own shambles of a Brexit position.
A very good case can be made for stabilising Brexit and not being on the point of crashing out while am election is going on. That it's also in Labour's narrow interest is the political art of mating the public interest to your own.
It's more than a very good case, it's an unanswerable case. That's why Boris should have made that his policy right from the start. Instead he chose to dig himself the most enormous elephant trap and jump right into it.
PB used to be a great way of assessing public opinion, as it offered a uniquely wide spectrum of well informed viewpoints. Sadly, this is yet another victim of Brexit.
It is impossible to get a grasp of how Boris is REALLY doing, because 95% of you are crazed by your hatred of him, and the other 5% therefore feel obliged to put up a desperate defence of him, whatever he does.
Shame. I shall have to rely on polls.
What you on about? There’s more balance here than most places.
There's excellent balance in PB.
There's the balance between those who hate this Conservative Prime Minister . . . and those who hate all Conservative Prime Ministers.
Earlier I asked for sensible and impartial assessments of BJ's performance at PMQs and I got it. When you have been participating in the Site as long as I have you get to know who you can trust and it's really a pleasingly high number of posters, despite all the inevitable bluster and trolling.
I don't think she will. Of course she'll want to lay into Labour for domestic electoral purposes, but I don't think there's any more to her tweets than that.
Or she really is worried about the court case, in which she needs the election sooner than later
PB used to be a great way of assessing public opinion, as it offered a uniquely wide spectrum of well informed viewpoints. Sadly, this is yet another victim of Brexit.
It is impossible to get a grasp of how Boris is REALLY doing, because 95% of you are crazed by your hatred of him, and the other 5% therefore feel obliged to put up a desperate defence of him, whatever he does.
Shame. I shall have to rely on polls.
What you on about? There’s more balance here than most places.
Well, if you’re right, we can expect the next few polls to show Boris plummeting overnight, and the Tories in free fall, given that he has just revealed what a flailing clown he is, and what a terrible racist coward, bumbling hypocrite, stupid posh boy, etc etc etc
My guess is his ratings won’t collapse, because this is all vapid hysteria from the echo chamber that is PB today. It is a real shame.
The last couple of days have shown Johnson to be shambolic and useless. This will affect his dealings with others. It may not affect his polling too much because his supporters, astonishingly, don't care about shambolic and useless.
PB used to be a great way of assessing public opinion, as it offered a uniquely wide spectrum of well informed viewpoints. Sadly, this is yet another victim of Brexit.
It is impossible to get a grasp of how Boris is REALLY doing, because 95% of you are crazed by your hatred of him, and the other 5% therefore feel obliged to put up a desperate defence of him, whatever he does.
Shame. I shall have to rely on polls.
What you on about? There’s more balance here than most places.
There's excellent balance in PB.
There's the balance between those who hate this Conservative Prime Minister . . . and those who hate all Conservative Prime Ministers.
It comes and goes, though. Yes, the centrists are in the ascendant at the moment. But it's not that long since every other comment seemed to be by Plato (RIP) who no-one would ever describe as a centrist. That doesn't make PB less balanced right now, it's just that on a site with a smallish commentariat, the consensus will shift from year to year.
From that NS piece: Corbyn’s inner circle believed throughout the leadership race that they would be better off facing Johnson than Jeremy Hunt or any of his other rivals.
As of right now, you can lay a 2019 election at 1.21 for substantial sums (I've taken all I want at present). A 2019 election is very possible but it doesn't look anything like a 1/5 shot to me right now.
It's absolutely the right thing for Labour to do, not least in their own electoral interests. They might screw it up, of course, but if they don't it's a neat way both of stuffing Boris and of escaping from their own shambles of a Brexit position.
A very good case can be made for stabilising Brexit and not being on the point of crashing out while am election is going on. That it's also in Labour's narrow interest is the political art of mating the public interest to your own.
It's more than a very good case, it's an unanswerable case. That's why Boris should have made that his policy right from the start. Instead he chose to dig himself the most enormous elephant trap and jump right into it.
He's not fallen in, the Opposition are teetering on the edge panicking about how to avoid falling in to HIS trap.
Its a win/win for Boris. If Parliament compels an extension against him then that shows he needs an election and needs a majority. It won't be optional like it was in 2017.
If Parliament doesn't compel an extension then he's won.
Either way, what's the trap? You seem to think for some reason that voters who want this over with are going to look at Parliamentarians conniving to obstruct Brexit and blame the one person opposing that.
Well, if you’re right, we can expect the next few polls to show Boris plummeting overnight, and the Tories in free fall, given that he has just revealed what a flailing clown he is, and what a terrible racist coward, bumbling hypocrite, stupid posh boy, etc etc etc
My guess is his ratings won’t collapse, because this is all vapid hysteria from the echo chamber that is PB today. It is a real shame.
I don't think that necessarily follows.
It's more that PB types will actually watch PMQs (not just the clips) and are also (on the whole) a little brighter than the average punter, thus less likely to be impressed with shallow bluster.
So Boris can be awful without his poll ratings suffering.
I tend to find judgement can be better in politics when the minutiae aren't being followed too closely. Particularly hyperbolic minutiae that spring up as a result of 'bad' or gotcha moments in political debate. I laid the snot out of Kamala Harris when she was being hyped up everywhere with her 'amazing' first debate performance. Johnson tanking at PMQs ? I haven't watched it and doubt one session is particularly relevant - the big picture is that he is starting to collapse the Brexit party vote whilst the remain vote is very split.
I don't think she will. Of course she'll want to lay into Labour for domestic electoral purposes, but I don't think there's any more to her tweets than that.
Or she really is worried about the court case, in which she needs the election sooner than later
PB used to be a great way of assessing public opinion, as it offered a uniquely wide spectrum of well informed viewpoints. Sadly, this is yet another victim of Brexit.
It is impossible to get a grasp of how Boris is REALLY doing, because 95% of you are crazed by your hatred of him, and the other 5% therefore feel obliged to put up a desperate defence of him, whatever he does.
Shame. I shall have to rely on polls.
Don't worry, I'm here and I am objective almost to a fault.
Boris today was not great. He lacked authority as he usually does but there was not the compensating brio or wit.
It was all a bit tacky.
I can see the Tories up to 40 per cent in the polls this weekend based on some conversations I have had with Leavers who would otherwise be supporting TBP.
I think that's perfectly possible. Many will see Rees-Mogg's lounging and Boris's swearing as sticking it to the worthies. The Tories are becoming something like Isis was a few years ago - the ultimate expression of one's detestation of civilizational norms. I'm not saying the Tories are going to start chopping heads off any time soon, but the lust for smashing things up is not dissimilar.
It's absolutely the right thing for Labour to do, not least in their own electoral interests. They might screw it up, of course, but if they don't it's a neat way both of stuffing Boris and of escaping from their own shambles of a Brexit position.
I don't think she will. Of course she'll want to lay into Labour for domestic electoral purposes, but I don't think there's any more to her tweets than that.
Or she really is worried about the court case, in which she needs the election sooner than later
Tory support would only go off the cliff if the Tories choose to extend, as May chose to do so.
If the extension is forced by the opposition with the Tories rallying [and expelling] anyone in favour of it then the Tories will be the lightning rod attracting everyone opposed to extension.
That’s surprisingly sensible from Labour. Wait and delay. Make Boris go to Brussels and ask for the extension he never wanted. Terrible Optics for BJ
But there is one alternative outcome. What if Boris refuses to ask?
Then, as per the surrender bill, Brussels will impose an extension, to be rubber-stamped by parliament. What if it is 3 years? Or 5? 10? Where are we then?! And what if it has conditions?
To be honest, so long as the government is of a Brexit persuasion, then the length of the extension is irrelevant.
Why?
Because there are two obvious outs: 1. The extension is for five years. The Brexit government revokes Brexit... and then resubmits. It's now only two years to exit. 2. The government tells the EU that it will simply repeal the European Communities Act, which takes the UK out of the EU (effectively) immediately.
The issue, really, is if there is a "notionally, but in reality not particularly Brexity" government. In which case it is used as an excuse to kick it into the long grass.
But if I look at the options available to the British people in 2019, they seem to be "No Deal Now!" or "Bollocks to Brexit".
So at least this year we should see clarity one way or the other. Either the Conservatives get a majority and take us out without a deal (probably a 60% chance), or a Referendum for Remain coalition get in (say 25%), in which case there'll likely be referendum between EFTA/EEA and Revoke.
There is, of course, a 15% chance that there is no workable government after the election, with the Tories losing the same number of seats to the LibDems and the SNP that they gain from Labour. In which case, we're all fucked.
So - as someone who wants to leave the EU, but in an orderly fashion, who do I vote for?
David Cameron did PMQs more effectively than Boris Johnson, though there were times he appeared to pull his punches when LOTO. I often felt he lacked the ability to put Brown in his place. He could sound authoritative, commanding, however he did contribute to the mess over Brexit which the current PM is trying to clear up.
Boris Johnson appears to flounder over details, but the chlorinated chicken jibe seems to hold attention. I would be surprised if he made the same mistake as Theresa May in going for a long, drawn out General Election campaign. I'm still unsure if he really will be suitable for his current post.
That’s surprisingly sensible from Labour. Wait and delay. Make Boris go to Brussels and ask for the extension he never wanted. Terrible Optics for BJ
But there is one alternative outcome. What if Boris refuses to ask?
Then, as per the surrender bill, Brussels will impose an extension, to be rubber-stamped by parliament. What if it is 3 years? Or 5? 10? Where are we then?! And what if it has conditions?
What if he goes to the E.U and says "I'm asking for an extension in bad faith, but if you give me an extension I will act badly and block everything in the E.U"
The E.U might say no thanks we dont want to give you an extension, we just want you out".
Well, if you’re right, we can expect the next few polls to show Boris plummeting overnight, and the Tories in free fall, given that he has just revealed what a flailing clown he is, and what a terrible racist coward, bumbling hypocrite, stupid posh boy, etc etc etc
My guess is his ratings won’t collapse, because this is all vapid hysteria from the echo chamber that is PB today. It is a real shame.
I don't think that necessarily follows.
It's more that PB types will actually watch PMQs (not just the clips) and are also (on the whole) a little brighter than the average punter, thus less likely to be impressed with shallow bluster.
So Boris can be awful without his poll ratings suffering.
IDS was awful but did surprisingly well at the ballot box because voters do not watch PMQs. Trouble is, MPs do watch PMQs and IDS was duly toppled. Is Boris the new Iain Duncan Smith?
What if he goes to the E.U and says "I'm asking for an extension in bad faith, but if you give me an extension I will act badly and block everything in the E.U"
The E.U might say no thanks we dont want to give you an extension, we just want you out".
The EU would say "You won't be PM for long enough..."
Well, if you’re right, we can expect the next few polls to show Boris plummeting overnight, and the Tories in free fall, given that he has just revealed what a flailing clown he is, and what a terrible racist coward, bumbling hypocrite, stupid posh boy, etc etc etc
My guess is his ratings won’t collapse, because this is all vapid hysteria from the echo chamber that is PB today. It is a real shame.
I don't think that necessarily follows.
It's more that PB types will actually watch PMQs (not just the clips) and are also (on the whole) a little brighter than the average punter, thus less likely to be impressed with shallow bluster.
So Boris can be awful without his poll ratings suffering.
I tend to find judgement can be better in politics when the minutiae aren't being followed too closely. Particularly hyperbolic minutiae that spring up as a result of 'bad' or gotcha moments in political debate. I laid the snot out of Kamala Harris when she was being hyped up everywhere with her 'amazing' first debate performance. Johnson tanking at PMQs ? I haven't watched it and doubt one session is particularly relevant - the big picture is that he is starting to collapse the Brexit party vote whilst the remain vote is very split.
A colleague of mine asked me the other day "have the Lib Dems picked their new leader yet?"
If you're not in the bubble, the world of politics can look very different.
It's absolutely the right thing for Labour to do, not least in their own electoral interests. They might screw it up, of course, but if they don't it's a neat way both of stuffing Boris and of escaping from their own shambles of a Brexit position.
A very good case can be made for stabilising Brexit and not being on the point of crashing out while am election is going on. That it's also in Labour's narrow interest is the political art of mating the public interest to your own.
It's more than a very good case, it's an unanswerable case. That's why Boris should have made that his policy right from the start. Instead he chose to dig himself the most enormous elephant trap and jump right into it.
He's not fallen in, the Opposition are teetering on the edge panicking about how to avoid falling in to HIS trap.
Its a win/win for Boris. If Parliament compels an extension against him then that shows he needs an election and needs a majority. It won't be optional like it was in 2017.
If Parliament doesn't compel an extension then he's won.
Either way, what's the trap? You seem to think for some reason that voters who want this over with are going to look at Parliamentarians conniving to obstruct Brexit and blame the one person opposing that.
The trap is that, just like Theresa May with March 29th but in even stronger terms, he's promised absolutely that we will leave on October 31st. Saying 'oh, but the big boys tied me to the bike shed so I couldn't do it' is not going to go well, Farage will stomp all over it. After all, if Boris didn't have the numbers in parliament, he shouldn't have promised it 'do or die', should he? He'll be shown up as a blustering untrustworthy fool - and amongst the voters he most needs to keep given that he's deliberately thrown away the support of the rest of us.
That’s surprisingly sensible from Labour. Wait and delay. Make Boris go to Brussels and ask for the extension he never wanted. Terrible Optics for BJ
But there is one alternative outcome. What if Boris refuses to ask?
Then, as per the surrender bill, Brussels will impose an extension, to be rubber-stamped by parliament. What if it is 3 years? Or 5? 10? Where are we then?! And what if it has conditions?
To be honest, so long as the government is of a Brexit persuasion, then the length of the extension is irrelevant.
Why?
Because there are two obvious outs: 1. The extension is for five years. The Brexit government revokes Brexit... and then resubmits. It's now only two years to exit. 2. The government tells the EU that it will simply repeal the European Communities Act, which takes the UK out of the EU (effectively) immediately.
The issue, really, is if there is a "notionally, but in reality not particularly Brexity" government. In which case it is used as an excuse to kick it into the long grass.
But if I look at the options available to the British people in 2019, they seem to be "No Deal Now!" or "Bollocks to Brexit".
So at least this year we should see clarity one way or the other. Either the Conservatives get a majority and take us out without a deal (probably a 60% chance), or a Referendum for Remain coalition get in (say 25%), in which case there'll likely be referendum between EFTA/EEA and Revoke.
There is, of course, a 15% chance that there is no workable government after the election, with the Tories losing the same number of seats to the LibDems and the SNP that they gain from Labour. In which case, we're all fucked.
So - as someone who wants to leave the EU, but in an orderly fashion, who do I vote for?
If the Tories lose the same number of seats to the LibDems and SNP as they gain from Labour then that's a pro-Leave majority with the DUP. The Tories who have defected/expelled would be replaced with pro-Leave MPs.
As of right now, you can lay a 2019 election at 1.21 for substantial sums (I've taken all I want at present). A 2019 election is very possible but it doesn't look anything like a 1/5 shot to me right now.
It's more likely than not I'd say but it's no 80% shot.
It's absolutely the right thing for Labour to do, not least in their own electoral interests. They might screw it up, of course, but if they don't it's a neat way both of stuffing Boris and of escaping from their own shambles of a Brexit position.
A very good case can be made for stabilising Brexit and not being on the point of crashing out while am election is going on. That it's also in Labour's narrow interest is the political art of mating the public interest to your own.
It's more than a very good case, it's an unanswerable case. That's why Boris should have made that his policy right from the start. Instead he chose to dig himself the most enormous elephant trap and jump right into it.
He's not fallen in, the Opposition are teetering on the edge panicking about how to avoid falling in to HIS trap.
Its a win/win for Boris. If Parliament compels an extension against him then that shows he needs an election and needs a majority. It won't be optional like it was in 2017.
If Parliament doesn't compel an extension then he's won.
Either way, what's the trap? You seem to think for some reason that voters who want this over with are going to look at Parliamentarians conniving to obstruct Brexit and blame the one person opposing that.
If we are still in the EU at 00:00:00:001 on November 1st then Boris will have spaffed it.
David Cameron did PMQs more effectively than Boris Johnson, though there were times he appeared to pull his punches when LOTO. I often felt he lacked the ability to put Brown in his place. He could sound authoritative, commanding, however he did contribute to the mess over Brexit which the current PM is trying to clear up.
Boris Johnson appears to flounder over details, but the chlorinated chicken jibe seems to hold attention. I would be surprised if he made the same mistake as Theresa May in going for a long, drawn out General Election campaign. I'm still unsure if he really will be suitable for his current post.
He'll be fine so long as no one asks him any awkward questions.
That’s surprisingly sensible from Labour. Wait and delay. Make Boris go to Brussels and ask for the extension he never wanted. Terrible Optics for BJ
But there is one alternative outcome. What if Boris refuses to ask?
Then, as per the surrender bill, Brussels will impose an extension, to be rubber-stamped by parliament. What if it is 3 years? Or 5? 10? Where are we then?! And what if it has conditions?
What if he goes to the E.U and says "I'm asking for an extension in bad faith, but if you give me an extension I will act badly and block everything in the E.U"
The E.U might say no thanks we dont want to give you an extension, we just want you out".
This is what will happen, so not only will Labour not get an election, they'll also be responsible for no deal on October 31st when an election could have stopped it. This is the corner Labour are in. Boris would far sooner take No Deal than a post October 31st election.
Comments
McDonnell was very lucky a "concerned citizen" didn't call the Police when he said Esther McVey should be lynched...
Boris today was not great. He lacked authority as he usually does but there was not the compensating brio or wit.
It was all a bit tacky.
My guess is his ratings won’t collapse, because this is all vapid hysteria from the echo chamber that is PB today. It is a real shame.
I come here specifically to hear points from other perspectives, from a variety of walks of life and geographical locations.
What on earth has got you thinking about bikinis? - OK, you may take the 5th!
But no, seriously, that comment was poor. If I were you I would contact the administrator and see if it can be taken down.
Can anyone remember a potential election where the outcome was more uncertain than this one?!
He was a pleasant civilised conversationalist, although we didn't discuss politics.
https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1168878006921846784?s=21
https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1168909401752854530?s=21
Earlier I asked for sensible and impartial assessments of BJ's performance at PMQs and I got it. When you have been participating in the Site as long as I have you get to know who you can trust and it's really a pleasingly high number of posters, despite all the inevitable bluster and trolling.
Mrs B is having a rough time given the worker free org structure in her part of the business, she's hoping theyll come up with another restructuring
At least she knows she getting an appointment; she also has a letter for another, unrelated, issue where she has been told she won't be seen for at least six months, due to shortage of staff, and consequently no appointments will be offered.
But there is one alternative outcome. What if Boris refuses to ask?
Then, as per the surrender bill, Brussels will impose an extension, to be rubber-stamped by parliament. What if it is 3 years? Or 5? 10? Where are we then?! And what if it has conditions?
But today, for me, he seemed off. It was his flaws which predominated.
However we won't have left on October 31st and Boris said we would come what may..
For all the talk of Corbyn being a coward, Boris is the man who lacks confidence in himself. You don’t believe me today but keep an eye on that.
It's more that PB types will actually watch PMQs (not just the clips) and are also (on the whole) a little brighter than the average punter, thus less likely to be impressed with shallow bluster.
So Boris can be awful without his poll ratings suffering.
There's the balance between those who hate this Conservative Prime Minister . . . and those who hate all Conservative Prime Ministers.
You were shite today BTW
I mean legally speaking is it in his power? I mean I know that isn't going to happen, but could he do it?
Most of the rest we've already said on pb.
Its a win/win for Boris. If Parliament compels an extension against him then that shows he needs an election and needs a majority. It won't be optional like it was in 2017.
If Parliament doesn't compel an extension then he's won.
Either way, what's the trap? You seem to think for some reason that voters who want this over with are going to look at Parliamentarians conniving to obstruct Brexit and blame the one person opposing that.
Johnson tanking at PMQs ? I haven't watched it and doubt one session is particularly relevant - the big picture is that he is starting to collapse the Brexit party vote whilst the remain vote is very split.
If the extension is forced by the opposition with the Tories rallying [and expelling] anyone in favour of it then the Tories will be the lightning rod attracting everyone opposed to extension.
Why?
Because there are two obvious outs:
1. The extension is for five years. The Brexit government revokes Brexit... and then resubmits. It's now only two years to exit.
2. The government tells the EU that it will simply repeal the European Communities Act, which takes the UK out of the EU (effectively) immediately.
The issue, really, is if there is a "notionally, but in reality not particularly Brexity" government. In which case it is used as an excuse to kick it into the long grass.
But if I look at the options available to the British people in 2019, they seem to be "No Deal Now!" or "Bollocks to Brexit".
So at least this year we should see clarity one way or the other. Either the Conservatives get a majority and take us out without a deal (probably a 60% chance), or a Referendum for Remain coalition get in (say 25%), in which case there'll likely be referendum between EFTA/EEA and Revoke.
There is, of course, a 15% chance that there is no workable government after the election, with the Tories losing the same number of seats to the LibDems and the SNP that they gain from Labour. In which case, we're all fucked.
So - as someone who wants to leave the EU, but in an orderly fashion, who do I vote for?
Boris Johnson appears to flounder over details, but the chlorinated chicken jibe seems to hold attention. I would be surprised if he made the same mistake as Theresa May in going for a long, drawn out General Election campaign. I'm still unsure if he really will be suitable for his current post.
The E.U might say no thanks we dont want to give you an extension, we just want you out".
Go Nicola!!!!!!!
If you're not in the bubble, the world of politics can look very different.
Believe in the Boris.
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/were-all-set-for-election-says-dups-foster-but-now-is-not-the-right-time-38461061.html