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  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Remainer/Liberal/Centrist/One Nation/Cameroon Britain up in arms tonight.

    Boris is betting the farm that we don't coalesce around an alternative to his horrendous administration...

    Coalition fans won't be happy, nor will many Remainers but the Tory base and most Leave voters will be delighted tonight we have the most rightwing Government since Thatcher and an ethnically diverse Cabinet too to reflect 21st century Britain
    You are a remainer. Why aren't you happy? Oh wait I know. Because given your remain views you are disappointed at the makeup of this government.
    Nicky Morgan has gone from "Brexit mutineer" to member of Boris Johnson's cabinet.

    image
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    I wonder what those Tory MPs who decided to support Boris because they thought he would pivot away from the ERG are thinking tonight.

    Anyway, I think Boris is going to try and go for prorogation of Parliament to get No Deal through, particularly if the polls stay as they are.

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    edited July 2019

    A ‘no deal’ BREXIT will be an unmitigated disaster for British farming/environment - this government is being built to make that happen

    To literally fuck up everything I care about - to impose a dogma on our landscapes that we already know screws everything up

    — James Rebanks (@herdyshepherd1) July 24, 2019
    A Cumbrian shepherd, speaking for himself.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Anybody understand this market?

    UK - Cabinet Specials - Next Cabinet Minister to leave after Leadsom

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.159161455

    Dead heat between everyone who has gone today.

    "Who will be the next Cabinet minister to leave.

    If two or more Cabinet Ministers leave on the same day, the market will be settled as a dead heat ."
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342

    Remainers and/or the left will of course be howling with rage at the new composition and direction of movement of the government.

    What they fail to realize, often due to filtering their politics through a very noisy social media echo chamber, is that THEY are the ones out of step with normal people.

    Normal people aren't headbanging loon-balls who obsess day and night about subverting the Brexit referendum.

    As someone on the Left, whose only social media is PB, I think you'll find it is, in the main, erstwhile Tories on here who are most angry.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    alex. said:

    GIN1138 said:

    alex. said:

    Can anyone logically explain why Michael Gove has accepted a demotion from the Cabinet?

    Nick P told me it could potentially be an "upgrade" from DEFRA?
    Its a consolation prize! A non job. I always wonder if it is an 'In' joke with PMs to appoint someone to that position.
    It depends what Boris does with it. The position is essentially the PM's fixer - often the person who gets to investigate problems and to act as spokesman to the media. If the PM doesn't use him then it's a demotion, but usually it's a senior role (the last one was Lidington, who was generally seen as Deputy PM).
    It's outside the Cabinet and therefore not on a Cabinet pay grade? Therefore it's a demotion.
    It's not definitely outside the Cabinet. Sometimes it is in, sometimes it is out, we await confirmation.
    Fair enough. Paid too much attention to Wikipedia...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,274




    I disagree with her on the death penalty, but I've not heard anything xenophobic from her like Theresa "Go Home" May.

    I agree entirely with your assessment of May. She was an awful woman and unfit to run a whelk stall.

    But the appointment of Patel does genuinely worry me. Her instincts seem to be just as statist and authoritarian as May's with the added concern that she has advocated a return of the death penalty.

    I judged May on her actions so would be willing to do the same for Patel but I have to confess to a lot of concern. Certainly I can't see her pushing the sort of soft libertarian agenda you and I would want.
    Patel will go down well with the Asian vote as well as the working class vote due to her tough on crime message which will help the Tories win back Brexit Party voters and win Labour Leave marginal seats.

    She is also friends with Narendra Modi which will help in talks with India on a FTA
  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 1,337

    GIN1138 said:

    alex. said:

    Can anyone logically explain why Michael Gove has accepted a demotion from the Cabinet?

    Nick P told me it could potentially be an "upgrade" from DEFRA?
    Its a consolation prize! A non job. I always wonder if it is an 'In' joke with PMs to appoint someone to that position.
    It depends what Boris does with it. The position is essentially the PM's fixer - often the person who gets to investigate problems and to act as spokesman to the media. If the PM doesn't use him then it's a demotion, but usually it's a senior role (the last one was Lidington, who was generally seen as Deputy PM).
    That's true.

    Although, I always think of it as a wooden spoon job!

    I wonder what Gove's reaction was when he was offered that? Hope he did not look too disappointed as Boris would have enjoyed that! Gove has probably sent his No Confidence letter into the head of the 1922 as a result of that!


    Talking of which, WHERE THE F*CK is Graham Brady?

    Still in hiding I should imagine, given the absolute state of recusing himself from running the leadership election in case he felt a calling to take part in it?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    IDS out in the cold?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427

    DougSeal said:

    @Philip_Thompson


    This is a cabinet that looks back at a dead empire, fearful of the world, contemptuous of our near neighbours, with hate in its heart for the world. Brexit is the clinging to a past hoping for solace from former colonies that care nothing for us.

    This cabinet will break up the U.K. England will be surrounded on all sides by the EU, Scotland to the North, Ireland (maybe Wales) to the West, the Mainland of our continent to the South and East. We will have to pass through the EU to get ourselves and our goods anywhere by land or air. We cannot cut ourselves off from our closest relations for ever. We are embedded with them. This is a family tiff that will pass and we will come back with our tails between our legs a much smaller nation. You’ve lost - you just don’t realise it yet.

    Complete and utter codswallop.

    Give me one good reason the UK can't be a successful, modern, independent global nation without being a part of the EU . . . yet Canada doesn't need to be part of the USA, NZ doesn't need to be a part of Australia, Sri Lanka doesn't need to be part of India and Japan doesn't need to be a part of China?
    Northern Ireland.
    Not a good reason.

    Canada has had a number of border disputes in its history with the USA without joining the USA.

    If instead of Sri Lanka I'd said Pakistan then NI could be viewed as comparable to their disputes. I don't see Pakistan being begged to be let in to their neighbour any time soon do you?
    Northern Ireland is not simply a border dispute. It has a unique status in the world, especially in the way its citizens can freely choose to be British or Irish will full consent of both Britain and Ireland.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    kle4 said:

    Their actions to date. The extension really was the period where if panic was going to force major changes to things it would have happened. Over hear it did not lead to various Labour MPs who pretended to be thinking about voting for the WA to do so, though it did lead to a great many Tory MPs (like Boris) to do so, albeit not enough. On the EU side it did at least panic them enough to offer an extension even though we had given no indication of how we would resolve matters, as they had wanted, but it did not panic them enough to actually bend on something substantive enough that May could sell it.

    Boris is probably a better seller than May, but the EU have put an awful lot on the line to insist the major stuff will not be touched again. They've had time to prepare. Even if, as is surely still the case, that no deal is not ideal for either of us, their own stubborness suggests they;d rather take the hit than appear to 'lose' on the substantive points.

    Their actions to date have been against May. They may be ready for the lose/lose in Brussels (and I think they are) but I'm not sure they expected the other side to be ready for it as well. That does change the circumstances quite drastically.

    In the May no deal scenario they would have the UK begging for any kind of deal, now they have to prepare for a hostile and uncooperative country right on their doorstep with a land border with one of their members.

    Honestly, I could see Boris increasing defence spending to 3% of GDP and at the same time calling time on NATO for the same reason as Trump has had enough. That's the nightmare scenario for the EU, under May it was never on the table, now anything is possible.
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589
    edited July 2019

    DougSeal said:

    @Philip_Thompson


    This is a cabinet that looks back at a dead empire, fearful of the world, contemptuous of our near neighbours, with hate in its heart for the world. Brexit is the clinging to a past hoping for solace from former colonies that care nothing for us.

    This cabinet will break up the U.K. England will be surrounded on all sides by the EU, Scotland to the North, Ireland (maybe Wales) to the West, the Mainland of our continent to the South and East. We will have to pass through the EU to get ourselves and our goods anywhere by land or air. We cannot cut ourselves off from our closest relations for ever. We are embedded with them. This is a family tiff that will pass and we will come back with our tails between our legs a much smaller nation. You’ve lost - you just don’t realise it yet.

    Complete and utter codswallop.

    Give me one good reason the UK can't be a successful, modern, independent global nation without being a part of the EU . . . yet Canada doesn't need to be part of the USA, NZ doesn't need to be a part of Australia, Sri Lanka doesn't need to be part of India and Japan doesn't need to be a part of China?
    Northern Ireland.
    Not a good reason.

    Canada has had a number of border disputes in its history with the USA without joining the USA.

    If instead of Sri Lanka I'd said Pakistan then NI could be viewed as comparable to their disputes. I don't see Pakistan being begged to be let in to their neighbour any time soon do you?
    This is also a classically disingenous argument because it assumes an association of states that pool sovereignty on issues of trade and customs is equivalent to a nation state of its own, which it most certainly is not. It's like saying that because NATO is a pooling of military resources we're part of the USA (a very silly argument I have had with comrades in the past).
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    Boris styles himself as a latter-day Churchill, but I'm not entirely convinced that his cabinet choices demonstrate that his study of the great man is very deep:

    In War: Resolution,
    In Defeat: Defiance,
    In Victory: Magnanimity
    In Peace: Good Will.

    Indeed, and it was notable that in 1940, Winston brought in leading lights from all parties and faction. He didn't just try to settle scores.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,657
    Anyway, when’s Boris off to Brussels to negotiate his new deal? We haven’t got all year.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    TOPPING said:


    Yeah there was a lot of that there. All part of Tommy's lot. Water off a duck's back tbh.

    But luckily enough we now understand the criteria for people being able to have opinions on places or what the qualifications are for belonging.

    I've heard similar sentiments relating to other types of foreigners; maybe you hold those also.

    Excellent smearing.
    You're the one dictating what foreigners can or can't think and whether they belong or not.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046
    HYUFD said:


    Patel will go down well with ... the working class vote due to

    Her ability to constantly be losin' her gs
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    Maybe I am wrong but Housing is by far the biggest issue Tories need to sort to try and block Jezza (other than Brexit stuff).

    So Mcvey...?
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    Anybody understand this market?

    UK - Cabinet Specials - Next Cabinet Minister to leave after Leadsom

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.159161455

    I think it's an old market that Betfair can't figure out how to settle!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826




    I disagree with her on the death penalty, but I've not heard anything xenophobic from her like Theresa "Go Home" May.

    I agree entirely with your assessment of May. She was an awful woman and unfit to run a whelk stall.

    But the appointment of Patel does genuinely worry me. Her instincts seem to be just as statist and authoritarian as May's with the added concern that she has advocated a return of the death penalty.

    I judged May on her actions so would be willing to do the same for Patel but I have to confess to a lot of concern. Certainly I can't see her pushing the sort of soft libertarian agenda you and I would want.
    Her record is rather mixed. She seems quite economically libertarian, while having an authoritarian streak for legal issues. I would prefer her then in the Treasury than Home Secretary. But I'll wait and see.

    She certainly can't be worse than May. I'd rather someone like Gove as Home Secretary but I don't think that was coming.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401

    Anyway, when’s Boris off to Brussels to negotiate his new deal? We haven’t got all year.

    He's waiting for the new FCO sec to tell him how one travels to the near continent.
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006
    Scott_P said:

    He now *looks* like a PM... It’s going to be a long ride.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    HYUFD said:




    I disagree with her on the death penalty, but I've not heard anything xenophobic from her like Theresa "Go Home" May.

    I agree entirely with your assessment of May. She was an awful woman and unfit to run a whelk stall.

    But the appointment of Patel does genuinely worry me. Her instincts seem to be just as statist and authoritarian as May's with the added concern that she has advocated a return of the death penalty.

    I judged May on her actions so would be willing to do the same for Patel but I have to confess to a lot of concern. Certainly I can't see her pushing the sort of soft libertarian agenda you and I would want.
    Patel will go down well with the Asian vote as well as the working class vote due to her tough on crime message which will help the Tories win back Brexit Party voters and win Labour Leave marginal seats.

    She is also friends with Narendra Modi which will help in talks with India on a FTA
    "The Asian vote" - listen to yourself straight out of Love Thy Neighbour".
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,657
    IanB2 said:

    IDS out in the cold?

    Not much of a surprise - Cummings has hated him for years.

  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:


    Patel will go down well with ... the working class vote due to

    Her ability to constantly be losin' her gs
    Beth Rigby does that as well!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    alex. said:

    Anybody understand this market?

    UK - Cabinet Specials - Next Cabinet Minister to leave after Leadsom

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.159161455

    I think it's an old market that Betfair can't figure out how to settle!
    I don't think they can settle until midnight, just in case another name comes out as being gone . . . as that will affect all the dead heat applications.

    It will presumably settle tomorrow, hence why they've all been basically set at around 16 or 1000.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:




    I disagree with her on the death penalty, but I've not heard anything xenophobic from her like Theresa "Go Home" May.

    I agree entirely with your assessment of May. She was an awful woman and unfit to run a whelk stall.

    But the appointment of Patel does genuinely worry me. Her instincts seem to be just as statist and authoritarian as May's with the added concern that she has advocated a return of the death penalty.

    I judged May on her actions so would be willing to do the same for Patel but I have to confess to a lot of concern. Certainly I can't see her pushing the sort of soft libertarian agenda you and I would want.
    Patel will go down well with the Asian vote as well as the working class vote due to her tough on crime message which will help the Tories win back Brexit Party voters and win Labour Leave marginal seats.

    She is also friends with Narendra Modi which will help in talks with India on a FTA
    "The Asian vote" - listen to yourself straight out of Love Thy Neighbour".
    My parents seemed pretty happy with it "finally criminals will pay for their crimes, not get free holidays" etc...
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    edited July 2019
    notme2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Dear me. I explained this a while back. I do not have a vote in Trudy Harrison’s constituency but my husband and daughter do. Daughter will not vote Tory under any circumstances and husband now won’t. He did before. So that’s one vote lost. I am in the process of moving so, depending on when the election is held, I will have a vote. It will not be for the Tories.

    I know and like Trudy. But her majority is ca. 2000. A No Deal Brexit will hit Cumbria hard. Whatever her good local work she cannot count on that saving her.

    Does this Cabinet look like one which gives a damn about the people of West Cumbria? Do they even know where it is or what life is like there? I doubt it.

    Yes, I remember your explanation well. You changed your tune when I pointed out what the electoral law was about second home owners voting (a major problem in parts of Wales).

    I had suggested you were a second home owner, and you said you indignantly were not. You owned a house in Hampstead and your husband owned a house in Copeland !!!!

    And you pontificate on here about the lack of straightforwardness of our political masters !!!!!!

    You may or may not be right that "A No Deal Brexit will hit Cumbria hard". You may or may not be right that this Cabinet "does not give a damn about Cumbria".

    But, I would rather hear that from the people of Cumbria. Let them speak for themselves. They don't need help from London, or even from very recently arrived imports to Cumbria.
    Yeah! Send her back.
    The point is Cyclefree hasn't left Hampstead yet.

    So, she can't really speak for Cumbria.
    I can and do speak out of my own experience. And I do have experience of West Cumbria. You do not know what that is and yet you have the arrogance to tell me what I can and cannot say.

    You are free to say what you like.

    But, you are a second home owner in Cumbria, and that clearly makes your viewpoint very different to the typical resident.
    I’m a one home owner in Cumbria. A lovely part of the world.
    Indeed it is beautiful. Like a rainy Northumberland :)
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    HYUFD said:




    I disagree with her on the death penalty, but I've not heard anything xenophobic from her like Theresa "Go Home" May.

    I agree entirely with your assessment of May. She was an awful woman and unfit to run a whelk stall.

    But the appointment of Patel does genuinely worry me. Her instincts seem to be just as statist and authoritarian as May's with the added concern that she has advocated a return of the death penalty.

    I judged May on her actions so would be willing to do the same for Patel but I have to confess to a lot of concern. Certainly I can't see her pushing the sort of soft libertarian agenda you and I would want.
    Patel will go down well with the Asian vote as well as the working class vote due to her tough on crime message which will help the Tories win back Brexit Party voters and win Labour Leave marginal seats.

    She is also friends with Narendra Modi which will help in talks with India on a FTA
    Yes, no doubt the tough on criminals line will go down very well. I expect death penalty for police officer kills to be floated at some point this summer.

    As Goodwin keeps pointing out, tough on crime is a key issue for voters who feel no party represents them: socially tough, flag, family etc, economically a bit left.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:




    I disagree with her on the death penalty, but I've not heard anything xenophobic from her like Theresa "Go Home" May.

    I agree entirely with your assessment of May. She was an awful woman and unfit to run a whelk stall.

    But the appointment of Patel does genuinely worry me. Her instincts seem to be just as statist and authoritarian as May's with the added concern that she has advocated a return of the death penalty.

    I judged May on her actions so would be willing to do the same for Patel but I have to confess to a lot of concern. Certainly I can't see her pushing the sort of soft libertarian agenda you and I would want.
    Patel will go down well with the Asian vote as well as the working class vote due to her tough on crime message which will help the Tories win back Brexit Party voters and win Labour Leave marginal seats.

    She is also friends with Narendra Modi which will help in talks with India on a FTA
    "The Asian vote" - listen to yourself straight out of Love Thy Neighbour".
    My parents seemed pretty happy with it "finally criminals will pay for their crimes, not get free holidays" etc...
    "Finally the tabloids will write things I want to read, not things that wind me up."
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    So much news today difficult to keep up but have I missed the main item. Is TSE still a party member?
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Chris said:

    On Betfair, the implied probability of Brexit by the end of the year has now shot up to nearly 50%. But the probability of No Deal by the end of the year is pretty much unchanged at under 30%.

    Does that make sense?

    Money going on the EU folding somewhat..... Enough to give Boris a deal anyway.
    Gee the smart money is that being firmer with the EU is what is needed to see the EU budge. Who could have seen that coming!?
    Not all money is smart.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Dear me. I explained this a while back. I do not have a vote in Trudy Harrison’s constituency but my husband and daughter do. Daughter will not vote Tory under any circumstances and husband now won’t. He did before. So that’s one vote lost. I am in the process of moving so, depending on when the election is held, I will have a vote. It will not be for the Tories.

    I know and like Trudy. But her majority is ca. 2000. A No Deal Brexit will hit Cumbria hard. Whatever her good local work she cannot count on that saving her.

    Does this Cabinet look like one which gives a damn about the people of West Cumbria? Do they even know where it is or what life is like there? I doubt it.

    Yes, I remember your explanation well. You changed your tune when I pointed out what the electoral law was about second home owners voting (a major problem in parts of Wales).

    I had suggested you were a second home owner, and you said you indignantly were not. You owned a house in Hampstead and your husband owned a house in Copeland !!!!

    And you pontificate on here about the lack of straightforwardness of our political masters !!!!!!

    You may or may not be right that "A No Deal Brexit will hit Cumbria hard". You may or may not be right that this Cabinet "does not give a damn about Cumbria".

    But, I would rather hear that from the people of Cumbria. Let them speak for themselves. They don't need help from London, or even from very recently arrived imports to Cumbria.
    Yeah! Send her back.
    The point is Cyclefree hasn't left Hampstead yet.

    So, she can't really speak for Cumbria.
    I can and do speak out of my own experience. And I do have experience of West Cumbria. You do not know what that is and yet you have the arrogance to tell me what I can and cannot say.

    You are free to say what you like.

    But, you are a second home owner in Cumbria, and that clearly makes your viewpoint very different to the typical resident.
    Do you have some difficulty with the English language?

    I am not a second home owner in Cumbria. As I have now told you several times.

    My husband is a full-time resident there. Has been for years. As is my daughter, who owns and runs her own business, employing 4 people. I have a share in that business.

    That gives me a viewpoint which is something other than that of an occasional visitor.

    Why you are seeking to delegitimise my voice on the basis of your own Cumbrian purity test I don’t know. But then excluding people on the basis of purity tests seems to be in vogue these days.

  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:


    Yeah there was a lot of that there. All part of Tommy's lot. Water off a duck's back tbh.

    But luckily enough we now understand the criteria for people being able to have opinions on places or what the qualifications are for belonging.

    I've heard similar sentiments relating to other types of foreigners; maybe you hold those also.

    Excellent smearing.
    You're the one dictating what foreigners can or can't think and whether they belong or not.
    I am not.

    I am saying you can't speak for Wales because you have a second home there.

    Go and smear someone else.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    GIN1138 said:

    alex. said:

    Can anyone logically explain why Michael Gove has accepted a demotion from the Cabinet?

    Nick P told me it could potentially be an "upgrade" from DEFRA?
    Its a consolation prize! A non job. I always wonder if it is an 'In' joke with PMs to appoint someone to that position.
    It depends what Boris does with it. The position is essentially the PM's fixer - often the person who gets to investigate problems and to act as spokesman to the media. If the PM doesn't use him then it's a demotion, but usually it's a senior role (the last one was Lidington, who was generally seen as Deputy PM).
    That's true.

    Although, I always think of it as a wooden spoon job!

    I wonder what Gove's reaction was when he was offered that? Hope he did not look too disappointed as Boris would have enjoyed that! Gove has probably sent his No Confidence letter into the head of the 1922 as a result of that!


    Talking of which, WHERE THE F*CK is Graham Brady?

    Still in hiding I should imagine, given the absolute state of recusing himself from running the leadership election in case he felt a calling to take part in it?
    I cannot understand why he ever thought he was a contender!

    Mind you some of the others who have stood for leaderships in various parties including the current leader of the Labour party could be argued as not being of the calibre desired.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:




    I disagree with her on the death penalty, but I've not heard anything xenophobic from her like Theresa "Go Home" May.

    I agree entirely with your assessment of May. She was an awful woman and unfit to run a whelk stall.

    But the appointment of Patel does genuinely worry me. Her instincts seem to be just as statist and authoritarian as May's with the added concern that she has advocated a return of the death penalty.

    I judged May on her actions so would be willing to do the same for Patel but I have to confess to a lot of concern. Certainly I can't see her pushing the sort of soft libertarian agenda you and I would want.
    Patel will go down well with the Asian vote as well as the working class vote due to her tough on crime message which will help the Tories win back Brexit Party voters and win Labour Leave marginal seats.

    She is also friends with Narendra Modi which will help in talks with India on a FTA
    "The Asian vote" - listen to yourself straight out of Love Thy Neighbour".
    My parents seemed pretty happy with it "finally criminals will pay for their crimes, not get free holidays" etc...
    Good to hear ask them if they are happy that Asians are lumped together as one amorphous whole.

    They'd smack your bottom.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    dixiedean said:

    notme2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Dear me. I explained this a while back. I do not have a vote in Trudy Harrison’s constituency but my husband and daughter do. Daughter will not vote Tory under any circumstances and husband now won’t. He did before. So that’s one vote lost. I am in the process of moving so, depending on when the election is held, I will have a vote. It will not be for the Tories.

    I know and like Trudy. But her majority is ca. 2000. A No Deal Brexit will hit Cumbria hard. Whatever her good local work she cannot count on that saving her.

    Does this Cabinet look like one which gives a damn about the people of West Cumbria? Do they even know where it is or what life is like there? I doubt it.

    Yes, I remember your explanation well. You changed your tune when I pointed out what the electoral law was about second home owners voting (a major problem in parts of Wales).

    I had suggested you were a second home owner, and you said you indignantly were not. You owned a house in Hampstead and your husband owned a house in Copeland !!!!

    And you pontificate on here about the lack of straightforwardness of our political masters !!!!!!

    You may or may not be right that "A No Deal Brexit will hit Cumbria hard". You may or may not be right that this Cabinet "does not give a damn about Cumbria".

    But, I would rather hear that from the people of Cumbria. Let them speak for themselves. They don't need help from London, or even from very recently arrived imports to Cumbria.
    Yeah! Send her back.
    The point is Cyclefree hasn't left Hampstead yet.

    So, she can't really speak for Cumbria.
    I can and do speak out of my own experience. And I do have experience of West Cumbria. You do not know what that is and yet you have the arrogance to tell me what I can and cannot say.

    You are free to say what you like.

    But, you are a second home owner in Cumbria, and that clearly makes your viewpoint very different to the typical resident.
    I’m a one home owner in Cumbria. A lovely part of the world.
    Indeed it is beautiful. Like a rainy Northumberland :)
    Cumbria has the wonderful 6 lane M6 and Northumberland has the pathetic 1.5 lane A1.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401

    alex. said:

    Anybody understand this market?

    UK - Cabinet Specials - Next Cabinet Minister to leave after Leadsom

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.159161455

    I think it's an old market that Betfair can't figure out how to settle!
    I don't think they can settle until midnight, just in case another name comes out as being gone . . . as that will affect all the dead heat applications.

    It will presumably settle tomorrow, hence why they've all been basically set at around 16 or 1000.
    Ah, I see now. Rule is left on same day. That means a dozen or more dead heats.

    Thnx.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    OnboardG1 said:

    This is also a classically disingenous argument because it assumes an association of states that pool sovereignty on issues of trade and customs is equivalent to a nation state of its own, which it most certainly is not. It's like saying that because NATO is a pooling of military resources we're part of the USA (a very silly argument I have had with comrades in the past).

    The EU is a nascent nation state. That is the stated goal of the EU's constitution, its founding members, its leading politicians. It is reality. It is already far more integrated than the USA was 200 years ago.

    It is disingenuous to view the EU as like NATO. As far as I can tell NATO doesn't unilaterally write new laws and have new laws apply to all its members whether they want them or not, NATO is a series of commitments and obligations we've made in full advance knowledge and we can choose to exit at any time if we choose to do so.

    The question isn't if we want to have "an association of states" it is "do we want a country called Europe". If so, be honest and campaign for it - as Ken Clarke and Williamglenn do.
  • basicbridgebasicbridge Posts: 674

    Chris said:

    On Betfair, the implied probability of Brexit by the end of the year has now shot up to nearly 50%. But the probability of No Deal by the end of the year is pretty much unchanged at under 30%.

    Does that make sense?

    Money going on the EU folding somewhat..... Enough to give Boris a deal anyway.
    Gee the smart money is that being firmer with the EU is what is needed to see the EU budge. Who could have seen that coming!?
    Not all money is smart.
    Well the other option doesn’t seem to have worked that well up to now, does it now?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:




    I disagree with her on the death penalty, but I've not heard anything xenophobic from her like Theresa "Go Home" May.

    I agree entirely with your assessment of May. She was an awful woman and unfit to run a whelk stall.

    But the appointment of Patel does genuinely worry me. Her instincts seem to be just as statist and authoritarian as May's with the added concern that she has advocated a return of the death penalty.

    I judged May on her actions so would be willing to do the same for Patel but I have to confess to a lot of concern. Certainly I can't see her pushing the sort of soft libertarian agenda you and I would want.
    Patel will go down well with the Asian vote as well as the working class vote due to her tough on crime message which will help the Tories win back Brexit Party voters and win Labour Leave marginal seats.

    She is also friends with Narendra Modi which will help in talks with India on a FTA
    "The Asian vote" - listen to yourself straight out of Love Thy Neighbour".
    My parents seemed pretty happy with it "finally criminals will pay for their crimes, not get free holidays" etc...
    Good to hear ask them if they are happy that Asians are lumped together as one amorphous whole.

    They'd smack your bottom.
    That's not what I said?
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    HYUFD said:




    I disagree with her on the death penalty, but I've not heard anything xenophobic from her like Theresa "Go Home" May.

    I agree entirely with your assessment of May. She was an awful woman and unfit to run a whelk stall.

    But the appointment of Patel does genuinely worry me. Her instincts seem to be just as statist and authoritarian as May's with the added concern that she has advocated a return of the death penalty.

    I judged May on her actions so would be willing to do the same for Patel but I have to confess to a lot of concern. Certainly I can't see her pushing the sort of soft libertarian agenda you and I would want.
    Patel will go down well with the Asian vote as well as the working class vote due to her tough on crime message which will help the Tories win back Brexit Party voters and win Labour Leave marginal seats.

    She is also friends with Narendra Modi which will help in talks with India on a FTA
    Yes, no doubt the tough on criminals line will go down very well. I expect death penalty for police officer kills to be floated at some point this summer.

    As Goodwin keeps pointing out, tough on crime is a key issue for voters who feel no party represents them: socially tough, flag, family etc, economically a bit left.
    Doesn't sentencing policy fall under the Justice Secretary these days, not the Home Office?
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,664
    Gove IS in the Cabinet.

    No 10 twitter - it says if you are attending Cabinet but not officially in it.

    Gove not listed as attending Cabinet.

    https://twitter.com/10downingstreet
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427

    OnboardG1 said:

    This is also a classically disingenous argument because it assumes an association of states that pool sovereignty on issues of trade and customs is equivalent to a nation state of its own, which it most certainly is not. It's like saying that because NATO is a pooling of military resources we're part of the USA (a very silly argument I have had with comrades in the past).

    The EU is a nascent nation state. That is the stated goal of the EU's constitution, its founding members, its leading politicians. It is reality. It is already far more integrated than the USA was 200 years ago.

    It is disingenuous to view the EU as like NATO. As far as I can tell NATO doesn't unilaterally write new laws and have new laws apply to all its members whether they want them or not, NATO is a series of commitments and obligations we've made in full advance knowledge and we can choose to exit at any time if we choose to do so.

    The question isn't if we want to have "an association of states" it is "do we want a country called Europe". If so, be honest and campaign for it - as Ken Clarke and Williamglenn do.
    You should have been honest and campaigned for what leaving the EU would actually mean rather than making up a load of bullshit.

    Those in glass houses.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    notme2 said:

    Scott_P said:

    He now *looks* like a PM... It’s going to be a long ride.
    Or short depending on that boring old political thing of being able to count.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,872

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Remainer/Liberal/Centrist/One Nation/Cameroon Britain up in arms tonight.

    Boris is betting the farm that we don't coalesce around an alternative to his horrendous administration...

    Coalition fans won't be happy, nor will many Remainers but the Tory base and most Leave voters will be delighted tonight we have the most rightwing Government since Thatcher and an ethnically diverse Cabinet too to reflect 21st century Britain
    You are a remainer. Why aren't you happy? Oh wait I know. Because given your remain views you are disappointed at the makeup of this government.
    Nicky Morgan has gone from "Brexit mutineer" to member of Boris Johnson's cabinet.

    Speaks well of her political skills to twist and turn well enough to manage that.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    notme2 said:

    Scott_P said:

    He now *looks* like a PM... It’s going to be a long ride.
    He looks like Trumpton in that photo!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    alex. said:

    HYUFD said:




    I disagree with her on the death penalty, but I've not heard anything xenophobic from her like Theresa "Go Home" May.

    I agree entirely with your assessment of May. She was an awful woman and unfit to run a whelk stall.

    But the appointment of Patel does genuinely worry me. Her instincts seem to be just as statist and authoritarian as May's with the added concern that she has advocated a return of the death penalty.

    I judged May on her actions so would be willing to do the same for Patel but I have to confess to a lot of concern. Certainly I can't see her pushing the sort of soft libertarian agenda you and I would want.
    Patel will go down well with the Asian vote as well as the working class vote due to her tough on crime message which will help the Tories win back Brexit Party voters and win Labour Leave marginal seats.

    She is also friends with Narendra Modi which will help in talks with India on a FTA
    Yes, no doubt the tough on criminals line will go down very well. I expect death penalty for police officer kills to be floated at some point this summer.

    As Goodwin keeps pointing out, tough on crime is a key issue for voters who feel no party represents them: socially tough, flag, family etc, economically a bit left.
    Doesn't sentencing policy fall under the Justice Secretary these days, not the Home Office?
    Yes but having a home secretary that actually wants to catch criminals is a big step forwards.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    edited July 2019

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:


    Yeah there was a lot of that there. All part of Tommy's lot. Water off a duck's back tbh.

    But luckily enough we now understand the criteria for people being able to have opinions on places or what the qualifications are for belonging.

    I've heard similar sentiments relating to other types of foreigners; maybe you hold those also.

    Excellent smearing.
    You're the one dictating what foreigners can or can't think and whether they belong or not.
    I am not.

    I am saying you can't speak for Wales because you have a second home there.

    Go and smear someone else.
    Can you speak for London if you are living there for a few years and are a French student or banker or barista? Or an Indian one?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    alex. said:

    HYUFD said:




    I disagree with her on the death penalty, but I've not heard anything xenophobic from her like Theresa "Go Home" May.

    I agree entirely with your assessment of May. She was an awful woman and unfit to run a whelk stall.

    But the appointment of Patel does genuinely worry me. Her instincts seem to be just as statist and authoritarian as May's with the added concern that she has advocated a return of the death penalty.

    I judged May on her actions so would be willing to do the same for Patel but I have to confess to a lot of concern. Certainly I can't see her pushing the sort of soft libertarian agenda you and I would want.
    Patel will go down well with the Asian vote as well as the working class vote due to her tough on crime message which will help the Tories win back Brexit Party voters and win Labour Leave marginal seats.

    She is also friends with Narendra Modi which will help in talks with India on a FTA
    Yes, no doubt the tough on criminals line will go down very well. I expect death penalty for police officer kills to be floated at some point this summer.

    As Goodwin keeps pointing out, tough on crime is a key issue for voters who feel no party represents them: socially tough, flag, family etc, economically a bit left.
    Doesn't sentencing policy fall under the Justice Secretary these days, not the Home Office?
    You could be right. But you think Patel wont stray all over the place?
  • booksellerbookseller Posts: 504
    Cyclefree said:

    I wonder what those Tory MPs who decided to support Boris because they thought he would pivot away from the ERG are thinking tonight.

    Anyway, I think Boris is going to try and go for prorogation of Parliament to get No Deal through, particularly if the polls stay as they are.

    He doesn't need to prorogue. He can just keep going to Brussels, asking for things they can't / won't give him, coming back ever more exasperated with an 'well, I tried' schtick and some colourful language for home consumption.

    Johnson has been trolling the EU for years, it's one of the few things he's rather good at. He knows that all he needs do in the next few months will be to keep testing their patience because the EU won't extend beyond Oct 31. He can make a ton of promises, more money for schools and hospitals, then - when everything goes tits up - he can claim it was the EU wot caused this...

    If I didn't hate the man so much, I might be sneakily admiring of it.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:




    I disagree with her on the death penalty, but I've not heard anything xenophobic from her like Theresa "Go Home" May.

    I agree entirely with your assessment of May. She was an awful woman and unfit to run a whelk stall.

    But the appointment of Patel does genuinely worry me. Her instincts seem to be just as statist and authoritarian as May's with the added concern that she has advocated a return of the death penalty.

    I judged May on her actions so would be willing to do the same for Patel but I have to confess to a lot of concern. Certainly I can't see her pushing the sort of soft libertarian agenda you and I would want.
    Patel will go down well with the Asian vote as well as the working class vote due to her tough on crime message which will help the Tories win back Brexit Party voters and win Labour Leave marginal seats.

    She is also friends with Narendra Modi which will help in talks with India on a FTA
    "The Asian vote" - listen to yourself straight out of Love Thy Neighbour".
    My parents seemed pretty happy with it "finally criminals will pay for their crimes, not get free holidays" etc...
    Good to hear ask them if they are happy that Asians are lumped together as one amorphous whole.

    They'd smack your bottom.
    That's not what I said?
    Ah in which case sorry I didn't read it like that.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    dixiedean said:

    notme2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Dear me. I explained this a while back. I do not have a vote in Trudy Harrison’s constituency but my husband and daughter do. Daughter will not vote Tory under any circumstances and husband now won’t. He did before. So that’s one vote lost. I am in the process of moving so, depending on when the election is held, I will have a vote. It will not be for the Tories.

    I know and like Trudy. But her majority is ca. 2000. A No Deal Brexit will hit Cumbria hard. Whatever her good local work she cannot count on that saving her.

    Does this Cabinet look like one which gives a damn about the people of West Cumbria? Do they even know where it is or what life is like there? I doubt it.

    Yes, I remember your explanation well. You changed your tune when I pointed out what the electoral law was about second home owners voting (a major problem in parts of Wales).

    I had suggested you were a second home owner, and you said you indignantly were not. You owned a house in Hampstead and your husband owned a house in Copeland !!!!

    And you pontificate on here about the lack of straightforwardness of our political masters !!!!!!

    You may or may not be right that "A No Deal Brexit will hit Cumbria hard". You may or may not be right that this Cabinet "does not give a damn about Cumbria".

    But, I would rather hear that from the people of Cumbria. Let them speak for themselves. They don't need help from London, or even from very recently arrived imports to Cumbria.
    Yeah! Send her back.
    The point is Cyclefree hasn't left Hampstead yet.

    So, she can't really speak for Cumbria.
    I can and do speak out of my own experience. And I do have experience of West Cumbria. You do not know what that is and yet you have the arrogance to tell me what I can and cannot say.

    You are free to say what you like.

    But, you are a second home owner in Cumbria, and that clearly makes your viewpoint very different to the typical resident.
    I’m a one home owner in Cumbria. A lovely part of the world.
    Indeed it is beautiful. Like a rainy Northumberland :)
    Cumbria has the wonderful 6 lane M6 and Northumberland has the pathetic 1.5 lane A1.
    So a great place if you want to leave it?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    Clearly JJ has been told Boris’s true plan of action and knows No Deal wont happen.

    Will we get freedom of movement?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    OnboardG1 said:

    This is also a classically disingenous argument because it assumes an association of states that pool sovereignty on issues of trade and customs is equivalent to a nation state of its own, which it most certainly is not. It's like saying that because NATO is a pooling of military resources we're part of the USA (a very silly argument I have had with comrades in the past).

    The EU is a nascent nation state. That is the stated goal of the EU's constitution, its founding members, its leading politicians. It is reality. It is already far more integrated than the USA was 200 years ago.

    It is disingenuous to view the EU as like NATO. As far as I can tell NATO doesn't unilaterally write new laws and have new laws apply to all its members whether they want them or not, NATO is a series of commitments and obligations we've made in full advance knowledge and we can choose to exit at any time if we choose to do so.

    The question isn't if we want to have "an association of states" it is "do we want a country called Europe". If so, be honest and campaign for it - as Ken Clarke and Williamglenn do.
    You should have been honest and campaigned for what leaving the EU would actually mean rather than making up a load of bullshit.

    Those in glass houses.
    You mean like saying that leaving the EU would mean leaving the Single Market an Customs Union?

    That was done honestly.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9dKcjfeVTs
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    TOPPING said:

    dixiedean said:

    notme2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Dear me. I explained this a while back. I do not have a vote in Trudy Harrison’s constituency but my husband and daughter do. Daughter will not vote Tory under any circumstances and husband now won’t. He did before. So that’s one vote lost. I am in the process of moving so, depending on when the election is held, I will have a vote. It will not be for the Tories.

    I know and like Trudy. But her majority is ca. 2000. A No Deal Brexit will hit Cumbria hard. Whatever her good local work she cannot count on that saving her.

    Does this Cabinet look like one which gives a damn about the people of West Cumbria? Do they even know where it is or what life is like there? I doubt it.

    Yes, I remember your explanation well. You changed your tune when I pointed out what the electoral law was about second home owners voting (a major problem in parts of Wales).

    I had suggested you were a second home owner, and you said you indignantly were not. You owned a house in Hampstead and your husband owned a house in Copeland !!!!

    And you pontificate on here about the lack of straightforwardness of our political masters !!!!!!

    You may or may not be right that "A No Deal Brexit will hit Cumbria hard". You may or may not be right that this Cabinet "does not give a damn about Cumbria".

    But, I would rather hear that from the people of Cumbria. Let them speak for themselves. They don't need help from London, or even from very recently arrived imports to Cumbria.
    Yeah! Send her back.
    The point is Cyclefree hasn't left Hampstead yet.

    So, she can't really speak for Cumbria.
    I can and do speak out of my own experience. And I do have experience of West Cumbria. You do not know what that is and yet you have the arrogance to tell me what I can and cannot say.

    You are free to say what you like.

    But, you are a second home owner in Cumbria, and that clearly makes your viewpoint very different to the typical resident.
    I’m a one home owner in Cumbria. A lovely part of the world.
    Indeed it is beautiful. Like a rainy Northumberland :)
    Cumbria has the wonderful 6 lane M6 and Northumberland has the pathetic 1.5 lane A1.
    So a great place if you want to leave it?
    Or travel through it.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    HYUFD said:
    Good uni minister though. So positive.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427

    OnboardG1 said:

    This is also a classically disingenous argument because it assumes an association of states that pool sovereignty on issues of trade and customs is equivalent to a nation state of its own, which it most certainly is not. It's like saying that because NATO is a pooling of military resources we're part of the USA (a very silly argument I have had with comrades in the past).

    The EU is a nascent nation state. That is the stated goal of the EU's constitution, its founding members, its leading politicians. It is reality. It is already far more integrated than the USA was 200 years ago.

    It is disingenuous to view the EU as like NATO. As far as I can tell NATO doesn't unilaterally write new laws and have new laws apply to all its members whether they want them or not, NATO is a series of commitments and obligations we've made in full advance knowledge and we can choose to exit at any time if we choose to do so.

    The question isn't if we want to have "an association of states" it is "do we want a country called Europe". If so, be honest and campaign for it - as Ken Clarke and Williamglenn do.
    You should have been honest and campaigned for what leaving the EU would actually mean rather than making up a load of bullshit.

    Those in glass houses.
    You mean like saying that leaving the EU would mean leaving the Single Market an Customs Union?

    That was done honestly.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9dKcjfeVTs
    That’s my point. The campaign said everything and anything.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    HYUFD said:
    I noticed Jo Johnson yesterday at the result ceremony. He looked completely deflated! Johnsons sister at least looked pleased for Boris even though she fundamentally disagrees with him on Brexit. I was intrigued by Jo Johnsons demeaner, maybe he thinks that Boris will sink his career and chances at the top job as well as his own?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Cyclefree said:



    Do you have some difficulty with the English language?

    I am not a second home owner in Cumbria. As I have now told you several times.

    My husband is a full-time resident there. Has been for years. As is my daughter, who owns and runs her own business, employing 4 people. I have a share in that business.

    That gives me a viewpoint which is something other than that of an occasional visitor.

    Why you are seeking to delegitimise my voice on the basis of your own Cumbrian purity test I don’t know. But then excluding people on the basis of purity tests seems to be in vogue these days.

    I am sorry to get unduly personal, but you have reported at length on this blog on your Cumbrian garden and your Cumbrian kitchen.

    And you own a house in Hampstead.

    As far as I can see, you own two homes.

    Your argument is that you own a home in Hampstead and your husband owns the home in Cumbria.

    Well, all right, if you wish for such sophistry, then as a family the Cyclefrees own two homes. Most families own one home.

    Except for those who are homeless.

    All this is relevant, because second home owners have a different perspective than single home owners. And this I know all too well from Wales.

    I have not "de-legitimised" your voice. I have said it is different to a long-term resident who owns a single home in Cumbria.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,664
    Jo Johnson NOT in the Cabinet.

    Attending Cabinet but not in it.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    edited July 2019

    Cyclefree said:



    Do you have some difficulty with the English language?

    I am not a second home owner in Cumbria. As I have now told you several times.

    My husband is a full-time resident there. Has been for years. As is my daughter, who owns and runs her own business, employing 4 people. I have a share in that business.

    That gives me a viewpoint which is something other than that of an occasional visitor.

    Why you are seeking to delegitimise my voice on the basis of your own Cumbrian purity test I don’t know. But then excluding people on the basis of purity tests seems to be in vogue these days.

    I am sorry to get unduly personal, but you have reported at length on this blog on your Cumbrian garden and your Cumbrian kitchen.

    And you own a house in Hampstead.

    As far as I can see, you own two homes.

    Your argument is that you own a home in Hampstead and your husband owns the home in Cumbria.

    Well, all right, if you wish for such sophistry, then as a family the Cyclefrees own two homes. Most families own one home.

    Except for those who are homeless.

    All this is relevant, because second home owners have a different perspective than single home owners. And this I know all too well from Wales.

    I have not "de-legitimised" your voice. I have said it is different to a long-term resident who owns a single home in Cumbria.
    I thought you were in NI at some point?

    Edit: unless you were talking about Brecon LOL.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    So the ERG will all be made PPSs to this lot?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,872

    HYUFD said:
    Good uni minister though. So positive.
    And all it costs him is dignity and the idea he has any principles whatsoever.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    MaxPB said:

    alex. said:

    HYUFD said:




    I disagree with her on the death penalty, but I've not heard anything xenophobic from her like Theresa "Go Home" May.

    I agree entirely with your assessment of May. She was an awful woman and unfit to run a whelk stall.

    But the appointment of Patel does genuinely worry me. Her instincts seem to be just as statist and authoritarian as May's with the added concern that she has advocated a return of the death penalty.

    I judged May on her actions so would be willing to do the same for Patel but I have to confess to a lot of concern. Certainly I can't see her pushing the sort of soft libertarian agenda you and I would want.
    Patel will go down well with the Asian vote as well as the working class vote due to her tough on crime message which will help the Tories win back Brexit Party voters and win Labour Leave marginal seats.

    She is also friends with Narendra Modi which will help in talks with India on a FTA
    Yes, no doubt the tough on criminals line will go down very well. I expect death penalty for police officer kills to be floated at some point this summer.

    As Goodwin keeps pointing out, tough on crime is a key issue for voters who feel no party represents them: socially tough, flag, family etc, economically a bit left.
    Doesn't sentencing policy fall under the Justice Secretary these days, not the Home Office?
    Yes but having a home secretary that actually wants to catch criminals is a big step forwards.
    What we need is to be tough on criminals but to stop being tough on non-criminals.

    If it was up to me I would legalise drugs, legalise virutally anything between consenting adults, let people do what they want so long as everyone involved consents.

    But I have no qualms with locking up those who break the law. We should have fewer laws, but we should enforce those we need.

    If someone wants to buy pot then they should be able to - on the high street, not from a drug dealer.
    If someone wants to break into people's homes - I see no reason they shouldn't be behind bars.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342

    dixiedean said:

    notme2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Dear me. I explained this a while back. I do not have a vote in Trudy Harrison’s constituency but my husband and daughter do. Daughter will not vote Tory under any circumstances and husband now won’t. He did before. So that’s one vote lost. I am in the process of moving so, depending on when the election is held, I will have a vote. It will not be for the Tories.

    I know and like Trudy. But her majority is ca. 2000. A No Deal Brexit will hit Cumbria hard. Whatever her good local work she cannot count on that saving her.

    Does this Cabinet look like one which gives a damn about the people of West Cumbria? Do they even know where it is or what life is like there? I doubt it.

    Yes, I remember your explanation well. You changed your tune when I pointed out what the electoral law was about second home owners voting (a major problem in parts of Wales).

    I had suggested you were a second home owner, and you said you indignantly were not. You owned a house in Hampstead and your husband owned a house in Copeland !!!!

    And you pontificate on here about the lack of straightforwardness of our political masters !!!!!!

    You may or may not be right that "A No Deal Brexit will hit Cumbria hard". You may or may not be right that this Cabinet "does not give a damn about Cumbria".

    But, I would rather hear that from the people of Cumbria. Let them speak for themselves. They don't need help from London, or even from very recently arrived imports to Cumbria.
    Yeah! Send her back.
    The point is Cyclefree hasn't left Hampstead yet.

    So, she can't really speak for Cumbria.
    I can and do speak out of my own experience. And I do have experience of West Cumbria. You do not know what that is and yet you have the arrogance to tell me what I can and cannot say.

    You are free to say what you like.

    But, you are a second home owner in Cumbria, and that clearly makes your viewpoint very different to the typical resident.
    I’m a one home owner in Cumbria. A lovely part of the world.
    Indeed it is beautiful. Like a rainy Northumberland :)
    Cumbria has the wonderful 6 lane M6 and Northumberland has the pathetic 1.5 lane A1.
    Which keeps all the bloody incomers from Hampstead away :).
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,707
    On topic betting on an election seems like the right response. If you were going to do something administratively complicated and massively dangerous like ending all your trading agreements overnight then you wouldn't do it with this team.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    HYUFD said:
    I have never heard of a 'Prine' before! Less haste more accuracy...
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Do you have some difficulty with the English language?

    I am not a second home owner in Cumbria. As I have now told you several times.

    My husband is a full-time resident there. Has been for years. As is my daughter, who owns and runs her own business, employing 4 people. I have a share in that business.

    That gives me a viewpoint which is something other than that of an occasional visitor.

    Why you are seeking to delegitimise my voice on the basis of your own Cumbrian purity test I don’t know. But then excluding people on the basis of purity tests seems to be in vogue these days.

    I am sorry to get unduly personal, but you have reported at length on this blog on your Cumbrian garden and your Cumbrian kitchen.

    And you own a house in Hampstead.

    As far as I can see, you own two homes.

    Your argument is that you own a home in Hampstead and your husband owns the home in Cumbria.

    Well, all right, if you wish for such sophistry, then as a family the Cyclefrees own two homes. Most families own one home.

    Except for those who are homeless.

    All this is relevant, because second home owners have a different perspective than single home owners. And this I know all too well from Wales.

    I have not "de-legitimised" your voice. I have said it is different to a long-term resident who owns a single home in Cumbria.
    I thought you were in NI at some point?

    Edit: unless you were talking about Brecon LOL.
    You mean Brycheiniog, I think.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    OnboardG1 said:

    This is also a classically disingenous argument because it assumes an association of states that pool sovereignty on issues of trade and customs is equivalent to a nation state of its own, which it most certainly is not. It's like saying that because NATO is a pooling of military resources we're part of the USA (a very silly argument I have had with comrades in the past).

    The EU is a nascent nation state. That is the stated goal of the EU's constitution, its founding members, its leading politicians. It is reality. It is already far more integrated than the USA was 200 years ago.

    It is disingenuous to view the EU as like NATO. As far as I can tell NATO doesn't unilaterally write new laws and have new laws apply to all its members whether they want them or not, NATO is a series of commitments and obligations we've made in full advance knowledge and we can choose to exit at any time if we choose to do so.

    The question isn't if we want to have "an association of states" it is "do we want a country called Europe". If so, be honest and campaign for it - as Ken Clarke and Williamglenn do.
    You should have been honest and campaigned for what leaving the EU would actually mean rather than making up a load of bullshit.

    Those in glass houses.
    You mean like saying that leaving the EU would mean leaving the Single Market an Customs Union?

    That was done honestly.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9dKcjfeVTs
    That’s my point. The campaign said everything and anything.
    No, it didn't.

    The campaign said we would leave the Single Market, leave the Customs Union, leave the jurisdiction of the ECJ, regain control of our laws and borders and seek a trade deal with the EU.

    In other words a Canada-style deal. Should not be impossible to achieve.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    I don't think this is a Cummings cabinet. More a Gavin Williamson job.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    notme2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Dear me. I explained this a while back. I do not have a vote in Trudy Harrison’s constituency but my husband and daughter do. Daughter will not vote Tory under any circumstances and husband now won’t. He did before. So that’s one vote lost. I am in the process of moving so, depending on when the election is held, I will have a vote. It will not be for the Tories.

    I know and like Trudy. But her majority is ca. 2000. A No Deal Brexit will hit Cumbria hard. Whatever her good local work she cannot count on that saving her.

    Does this Cabinet look like one which gives a damn about the people of West Cumbria? Do they even know where it is or what life is like there? I doubt it.

    Yes, I remember your explanation well. You changed your tune when I pointed out what the electoral law was about second home owners voting (a major problem in parts of Wales).

    I had suggested you were a second home owner, and you said you indignantly were not. You owned a house in Hampstead and your husband owned a house in Copeland !!!!

    And you pontificate on here about the lack of straightforwardness of our political masters !!!!!!

    You may or may not be right that "A No Deal Brexit will hit Cumbria hard". You may or may not be right that this Cabinet "does not give a damn about Cumbria".

    But, I would rather hear that from the people of Cumbria. Let them speak for themselves. They don't need help from London, or even from very recently arrived imports to Cumbria.
    Yeah! Send her back.
    The point is Cyclefree hasn't left Hampstead yet.

    So, she can't really speak for Cumbria.
    I can and do speak out of my own experience. And I do have experience of West Cumbria. You do not know what that is and yet you have the arrogance to tell me what I can and cannot say.

    You are free to say what you like.

    But, you are a second home owner in Cumbria, and that clearly makes your viewpoint very different to the typical resident.
    I’m a one home owner in Cumbria. A lovely part of the world.
    Indeed it is beautiful. Like a rainy Northumberland :)
    Cumbria has the wonderful 6 lane M6 and Northumberland has the pathetic 1.5 lane A1.
    Which keeps all the bloody incomers from Hampstead away :).
    Speaking as a (shorter term) Otterburn resident...
  • CaptainBuzzkillCaptainBuzzkill Posts: 335
    edited July 2019
    There are a huge number of remainer MP's who will be faced with a dilemma when it comes to a VoNC or waving through a deal at the last minute.

    The LD's and SNP will be all for a GE and they will both be winners from the remainer voter pool.

    If the Tories firm their commitment to Brexit they will gain from the leaver pool and lose some remainers to the LD's.

    Labour will get steamrollered standing in the middle not committing to either side and getting picked off by the LD's in the south, TBP in the midlands/nw/ne and the SNP in Scotland.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Yes, I remember your explanation well. You changed your tune when I pointed out what the electoral law was about second home owners voting (a major problem in parts of Wales).

    I had suggested you were a second home owner, and you said you indignantly were not. You owned a house in Hampstead and your husband owned a house in Copeland !!!!

    And you pontificate on here about the lack of straightforwardness of our political masters !!!!!!

    You may or may not be right that "A No Deal Brexit will hit Cumbria hard". You may or may not be right that this Cabinet "does not give a damn about Cumbria".

    But, I would rather hear that from the people of Cumbria. Let them speak for themselves. They don't need help from London, or even from very recently arrived imports to Cumbria.
    I have never changed my tune or been anything other than utterly straightforward about my personal life, to the extent that it is yours or anyone else’s business.

    Indeed, I rather resent the suggestion you appear to have made that I have either lied about what I own or that I have tried to break electoral law. If that is not what you have suggested I am sure you will clear that up. If it is then you might like to make an apology.

    I have been spending a considerable time in Cumbria for 31 years. I have a large family up there and am entitled as anyone else to report back on what I see and hear. I don’t go there to help but because I love the place and intend living there full-time. Who you to choose to listen to is your own affair. Mind you, you might try taking that chip off your shoulder first.
    I think it is ridiculous to claim that you are not a second home owner on the grounds that you own one home and your husband owns one home.
    It is not ridiculous. It is a fact. And if you had any sense you would understand that there are lots of circumstances and reasons why people who are still officially married can nonetheless lead separate lives. But you appear to have no sense or grace, frankly. And I am not going to discuss my personal life any further with you.

    I will continue to express my views how I like on any place I damn well like.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    On topic betting on an election seems like the right response. If you were going to do something administratively complicated and massively dangerous like ending all your trading agreements overnight then you wouldn't do it with this team.

    Which of Grayling, Bradley, Fox and the rest of May's team of dismal failures would you do it with?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320

    OnboardG1 said:

    This is also a classically disingenous argument because it assumes an association of states that pool sovereignty on issues of trade and customs is equivalent to a nation state of its own, which it most certainly is not. It's like saying that because NATO is a pooling of military resources we're part of the USA (a very silly argument I have had with comrades in the past).

    The EU is a nascent nation state. That is the stated goal of the EU's constitution, its founding members, its leading politicians. It is reality. It is already far more integrated than the USA was 200 years ago.

    It is disingenuous to view the EU as like NATO. As far as I can tell NATO doesn't unilaterally write new laws and have new laws apply to all its members whether they want them or not, NATO is a series of commitments and obligations we've made in full advance knowledge and we can choose to exit at any time if we choose to do so.

    The question isn't if we want to have "an association of states" it is "do we want a country called Europe". If so, be honest and campaign for it - as Ken Clarke and Williamglenn do.
    You should have been honest and campaigned for what leaving the EU would actually mean rather than making up a load of bullshit.

    Those in glass houses.
    You mean like saying that leaving the EU would mean leaving the Single Market an Customs Union?

    That was done honestly.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9dKcjfeVTs
    That’s my point. The campaign said everything and anything.
    No, it didn't.

    The campaign said we would leave the Single Market, leave the Customs Union, leave the jurisdiction of the ECJ, regain control of our laws and borders and seek a trade deal with the EU.

    In other words a Canada-style deal. Should not be impossible to achieve.
    Vote Leave said "there is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it."

    In other words the EEA.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Do you have some difficulty with the English language?

    I am not a second home owner in Cumbria. As I have now told you several times.

    My husband is a full-time resident there. Has been for years. As is my daughter, who owns and runs her own business, employing 4 people. I have a share in that business.

    That gives me a viewpoint which is something other than that of an occasional visitor.

    Why you are seeking to delegitimise my voice on the basis of your own Cumbrian purity test I don’t know. But then excluding people on the basis of purity tests seems to be in vogue these days.

    I am sorry to get unduly personal, but you have reported at length on this blog on your Cumbrian garden and your Cumbrian kitchen.

    And you own a house in Hampstead.

    As far as I can see, you own two homes.

    Your argument is that you own a home in Hampstead and your husband owns the home in Cumbria.

    Well, all right, if you wish for such sophistry, then as a family the Cyclefrees own two homes. Most families own one home.

    Except for those who are homeless.

    All this is relevant, because second home owners have a different perspective than single home owners. And this I know all too well from Wales.

    I have not "de-legitimised" your voice. I have said it is different to a long-term resident who owns a single home in Cumbria.
    I thought you were in NI at some point?

    Edit: unless you were talking about Brecon LOL.
    You mean Brycheiniog, I think.
    Were you in NI?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    I don't think this is a Cummings cabinet. More a Gavin Williamson job.

    I don't know, it feels like a Cummings job. One chance to have a revolution so use it etc...
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    I don't think this is a Cummings cabinet. More a Gavin Williamson job.

    Revenge is a dish best served cold?

    A lot of this does seem to have stemmed from May's sacking of Williamson onwards.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    OnboardG1 said:

    This is also a classically disingenous argument because it assumes an association of states that pool sovereignty on issues of trade and customs is equivalent to a nation state of its own, which it most certainly is not. It's like saying that because NATO is a pooling of military resources we're part of the USA (a very silly argument I have had with comrades in the past).

    The EU is a nascent nation state. That is the stated goal of the EU's constitution, its founding members, its leading politicians. It is reality. It is already far more integrated than the USA was 200 years ago.

    It is disingenuous to view the EU as like NATO. As far as I can tell NATO doesn't unilaterally write new laws and have new laws apply to all its members whether they want them or not, NATO is a series of commitments and obligations we've made in full advance knowledge and we can choose to exit at any time if we choose to do so.

    The question isn't if we want to have "an association of states" it is "do we want a country called Europe". If so, be honest and campaign for it - as Ken Clarke and Williamglenn do.
    You should have been honest and campaigned for what leaving the EU would actually mean rather than making up a load of bullshit.

    Those in glass houses.
    You mean like saying that leaving the EU would mean leaving the Single Market an Customs Union?

    That was done honestly.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9dKcjfeVTs
    That’s my point. The campaign said everything and anything.
    No, it didn't.

    The campaign said we would leave the Single Market, leave the Customs Union, leave the jurisdiction of the ECJ, regain control of our laws and borders and seek a trade deal with the EU.

    In other words a Canada-style deal. Should not be impossible to achieve.
    Vote Leave said "there is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it."

    In other words the EEA.
    No, FTA. We wouldn't have left the Single Market in the EEA.

    An FTA ticks every box.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320

    OnboardG1 said:

    This is also a classically disingenous argument because it assumes an association of states that pool sovereignty on issues of trade and customs is equivalent to a nation state of its own, which it most certainly is not. It's like saying that because NATO is a pooling of military resources we're part of the USA (a very silly argument I have had with comrades in the past).

    The EU is a nascent nation state. That is the stated goal of the EU's constitution, its founding members, its leading politicians. It is reality. It is already far more integrated than the USA was 200 years ago.

    It is disingenuous to view the EU as like NATO. As far as I can tell NATO doesn't unilaterally write new laws and have new laws apply to all its members whether they want them or not, NATO is a series of commitments and obligations we've made in full advance knowledge and we can choose to exit at any time if we choose to do so.

    The question isn't if we want to have "an association of states" it is "do we want a country called Europe". If so, be honest and campaign for it - as Ken Clarke and Williamglenn do.
    You should have been honest and campaigned for what leaving the EU would actually mean rather than making up a load of bullshit.

    Those in glass houses.
    You mean like saying that leaving the EU would mean leaving the Single Market an Customs Union?

    That was done honestly.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9dKcjfeVTs
    That’s my point. The campaign said everything and anything.
    No, it didn't.

    The campaign said we would leave the Single Market, leave the Customs Union, leave the jurisdiction of the ECJ, regain control of our laws and borders and seek a trade deal with the EU.

    In other words a Canada-style deal. Should not be impossible to achieve.
    Vote Leave said "there is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it."

    In other words the EEA.
    No, FTA. We wouldn't have left the Single Market in the EEA.

    An FTA ticks every box.
    It ticks the "Brexit will be an abject failure" box, so from a Remain perspective, keep pursuing it.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Given Bozos jingoistic rhetoric today I expect he’ll soon go full Trump and portray those refusing to back his right wing coup as traitors and against Britain and the right wing press will peddle this.

  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    alex. said:

    Anybody understand this market?

    UK - Cabinet Specials - Next Cabinet Minister to leave after Leadsom

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.159161455

    I think it's an old market that Betfair can't figure out how to settle!
    I don't think they can settle until midnight, just in case another name comes out as being gone . . . as that will affect all the dead heat applications.

    It will presumably settle tomorrow, hence why they've all been basically set at around 16 or 1000.
    Ah, I see now. Rule is left on same day. That means a dozen or more dead heats.

    Thnx.
    Am looking forward to the market resetting tomorrow. Straight in on Priti Useless Patel.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,153
    MaxPB said:

    I don't think this is a Cummings cabinet. More a Gavin Williamson job.

    I don't know, it feels like a Cummings job. One chance to have a revolution so use it etc...
    Cummings wouldn't have agreed to Gove's demotion would he? Or have they fallen out?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    No Hunt is disappointing. Gove may or may not have a real job depending on how the committee structure is set up. Mildly underwhelmed to be honest. Hope there is some genuine new talent in the more junior ranks.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,872
    nico67 said:

    Given Bozos jingoistic rhetoric today I expect he’ll soon go full Trump and portray those refusing to back his right wing coup as traitors and against Britain and the right wing press will peddle this.

    Surely not a headline declaring some figures as 'Enemies of the People'? We wouldn't want to see such vicious stuff.

    Again.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    TOPPING said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    notme2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Dear me. I explained this a while back. I do not have a vote in Trudy Harrison’s constituency but my husband and daughter do. Daughter will not vote Tory under any circumstances and husband now won’t. He did before. So that’s one vote lost. I am in the process of moving so, depending on when the election is held, I will have a vote. It will not be for the Tories.

    I know and like Trudy. But her majority is ca. 2000. A No Deal Brexit will hit Cumbria hard. Whatever her good local work she cannot count on that saving her.

    Does this Cabinet look like one which gives a damn about the people of West Cumbria? Do they even know where it is or what life is like there? I doubt it.

    Yes, I remember your explanation well. You changed your tune when I pointed out what the electoral law was about second home owners voting (a major problem in parts of Wales).

    I had suggested you were a second home owner, and you said you indignantly were not. You owned a house in Hampstead and your husband owned a house in Copeland !!!!

    And you pontificate on here about the lack of straightforwardness of our political masters !!!!!!

    You may or may not be right that "A No Deal Brexit will hit Cumbria hard". You may or may not be right that this Cabinet "does not give a damn about Cumbria".

    But, I would rather hear that from the people of Cumbria. Let them speak for themselves. They don't need help from London, or even from very recently arrived imports to Cumbria.
    Yeah! Send her back.
    The point is Cyclefree hasn't left Hampstead yet.

    So, she can't really speak for Cumbria.
    I can and do speak out of my own experience. And I do have experience of West Cumbria. You do not know what that is and yet you have the arrogance to tell me what I can and cannot say.

    You are free to say what you like.

    But, you are a second home owner in Cumbria, and that clearly makes your viewpoint very different to the typical resident.
    I’m a one home owner in Cumbria. A lovely part of the world.
    Indeed it is beautiful. Like a rainy Northumberland :)
    Cumbria has the wonderful 6 lane M6 and Northumberland has the pathetic 1.5 lane A1.
    Which keeps all the bloody incomers from Hampstead away :).
    Speaking as a (shorter term) Otterburn resident...
    Feel free to express any view as a Northumbrian then. Fire away as they say up there.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    GIN1138 said:

    MaxPB said:

    I don't think this is a Cummings cabinet. More a Gavin Williamson job.

    I don't know, it feels like a Cummings job. One chance to have a revolution so use it etc...
    Cummings wouldn't have agreed to Gove's demotion would he? Or have they fallen out?
    It's not a demotion, though. He's basically minister for no deal prep.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Scott_P said:
    @notme He now *looks* like a PM... It’s going to be a long ride.

    ----

    I believe that's called the adlocutio pose, used in classical sculpture for emperors and would-be emperors who imagine themselves to be great orators and generals. Napoleon was keen on it.

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,153
    MaxPB said:

    GIN1138 said:

    MaxPB said:

    I don't think this is a Cummings cabinet. More a Gavin Williamson job.

    I don't know, it feels like a Cummings job. One chance to have a revolution so use it etc...
    Cummings wouldn't have agreed to Gove's demotion would he? Or have they fallen out?
    It's not a demotion, though. He's basically minister for no deal prep.
    I thought someone said he's out the cabinet?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Do you have some difficulty with the English language?

    I am not a second home owner in Cumbria. As I have now told you several times.

    My husband is a full-time resident there. Has been for years. As is my daughter, who owns and runs her own business, employing 4 people. I have a share in that business.

    That gives me a viewpoint which is something other than that of an occasional visitor.

    Why you are seeking to delegitimise my voice on the basis of your own Cumbrian purity test I don’t know. But then excluding people on the basis of purity tests seems to be in vogue these days.

    I am sorry to get unduly personal, but you have reported at length on this blog on your Cumbrian garden and your Cumbrian kitchen.

    And you own a house in Hampstead.

    As far as I can see, you own two homes.

    Your argument is that you own a home in Hampstead and your husband owns the home in Cumbria.

    Well, all right, if you wish for such sophistry, then as a family the Cyclefrees own two homes. Most families own one home.

    Except for those who are homeless.

    All this is relevant, because second home owners have a different perspective than single home owners. And this I know all too well from Wales.

    I have not "de-legitimised" your voice. I have said it is different to a long-term resident who owns a single home in Cumbria.
    I thought you were in NI at some point?

    Edit: unless you were talking about Brecon LOL.
    You mean Brycheiniog, I think.
    Come on, bed beckons. Get on with it.

    Please for my sanity tell me that you were in NI for a long long time because you presumed to speak for the northern Irish just after admonishing a poster for speaking about Cumbria while not being sufficiently resident there.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    GIN1138 said:

    MaxPB said:

    GIN1138 said:

    MaxPB said:

    I don't think this is a Cummings cabinet. More a Gavin Williamson job.

    I don't know, it feels like a Cummings job. One chance to have a revolution so use it etc...
    Cummings wouldn't have agreed to Gove's demotion would he? Or have they fallen out?
    It's not a demotion, though. He's basically minister for no deal prep.
    I thought someone said he's out the cabinet?
    I think he's in.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    edited July 2019
    dixiedean said:

    TOPPING said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    notme2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Dear me. I explained this a while back. I do not have a vote in Trudy Harrison’s constituency but my husband and daughter do. Daughter will not vote Tory under any circumstances and husband now won’t. He did before. So that’s one vote lost. I am in the process of moving so, depending on

    Does this Cabinet look like one which gives a damn about the people of West Cumbria? Do they even know where it is or what life is like there? I doubt it.

    Yes, I remember your explanation well. You changed your tune when I pointed out what the electoral law was about second home owners voting (a major problem in parts of Wales).

    I had suggested you were a second home owner, and you said you indignantly were not. You owned a house in Hampstead and your husband owned a house in Copeland !!!!

    And you pontificate on here about the lack of straightforwardness of our political masters !!!!!!

    You may or may not be right that "A No Deal Brexit will hit Cumbria hard". You may or may not be right that this Cabinet "does not give a damn about Cumbria".

    But, I would rather hear that from the people of Cumbria. Let them speak for themselves. They don't need help from London, or even from very recently arrived imports to Cumbria.
    Yeah! Send her back.
    The point is Cyclefree hasn't left Hampstead yet.

    So, she can't really speak for Cumbria.
    I can and do speak out of my own experience. And I do have experience of West Cumbria. You do not know what that is and yet you have the arrogance to tell me what I can and cannot say.

    You are free to say what you like.

    But, you are a second home owner in Cumbria, and that clearly makes your viewpoint very different to the typical resident.
    I’m a one home owner in Cumbria. A lovely part of the world.
    Indeed it is beautiful. Like a rainy Northumberland :)
    Cumbria has the wonderful 6 lane M6 and Northumberland has the pathetic 1.5 lane A1.
    Which keeps all the bloody incomers from Hampstead away :).
    Speaking as a (shorter term) Otterburn resident...
    Feel free to express any view as a Northumbrian then. Fire away as they say up there.
    It's what we said as well when we were there.

    Oh and rain. Lots of it. As I remember.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,872
    Scott_P said:
    What is he looking at?

    The answer better not be 'the sunlit uplands'.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    What is he looking at?

    The answer better not be 'the sunlit uplands'.

    Tomorrow appears to belong to him.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Do you have some difficulty with the English language?

    I am not a second home owner in Cumbria. As I have now told you several times.

    My husband is a full-time resident there. Has been for years. As is my daughter, who owns and runs her own business, employing 4 people. I have a share in that business.

    That gives me a viewpoint which is something other than that of an occasional visitor.

    Why you are seeking to delegitimise my voice on the basis of your own Cumbrian purity test I don’t know. But then excluding people on the basis of purity tests seems to be in vogue these days.

    I am sorry to get unduly personal, but you have reported at length on this blog on your Cumbrian garden and your Cumbrian kitchen.

    And you own a house in Hampstead.

    As far as I can see, you own two homes.

    Your argument is that you own a home in Hampstead and your husband owns the home in Cumbria.

    Well, all right, if you wish for such sophistry, then as a family the Cyclefrees own two homes. Most families own one home.

    Except for those who are homeless.

    All this is relevant, because second home owners have a different perspective than single home owners. And this I know all too well from Wales.

    I have not "de-legitimised" your voice. I have said it is different to a long-term resident who owns a single home in Cumbria.
    I thought you were in NI at some point?

    Edit: unless you were talking about Brecon LOL.
    You mean Brycheiniog, I think.
    Come on, bed beckons. Get on with it.

    Please for my sanity tell me that you were in NI for a long long time because you presumed to speak for the northern Irish just after admonishing a poster for speaking about Cumbria while not being sufficiently resident there.
    Of course. Bangor.
This discussion has been closed.