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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Tory booted out of his Brecon & Radnorshire seat by the re

SystemSystem Posts: 12,171
edited June 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Tory booted out of his Brecon & Radnorshire seat by the recall petition plans to stand again for his party in the by-election

Brecon & Radnorshire 1979-2017 from David Cowling

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Comments

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    First. Probably not like the Tories. Are they insane?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624
    Congrats Sri Lanka.

    A few thoughts:

    1) Low scoring games are more fun - although it wasn't low scoring by historical standards

    2) One day cricket is a better test than one day hitting

    3) Its a lot harder to chase when the pressure is on

    4) All the "we can chase anything, 500 is within reach" talk was silly

    5) Good judgement is needed - its better to pick up an easy one or two after hitting a six
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I guess he might have been determined to stand again, in which case they might have been required to make a virtue out of necessity.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    Also. Is this the only seat Labour polled worse in 97 than 87?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited June 2019
    To be fair to Davies he gained the seat from the LDs in 2015 and increased the Tories voteshare in the seat in 2017 to the highest it has ever been since the 1960s so why should he not stand again? He has faced the punishment of the courts for the expenses row and was a well known local auctioneer, only a minority of voters signed the petition (likely almost all Liberals anyway) so why should he not stand again and let the voters decide his fate?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited June 2019
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    dixiedean said:

    Also. Is this the only seat Labour polled worse in 97 than 87?

    Good question. It certainly used to be a Labour target.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,534
    I think personal loyalties kick in here. I didn't really feel happy with Labour instantly disavowing the former Peterborough MP. Clearly it's awkward and increases the risk of losing, but I don't think Johnson and Hunt really had an alternative option, given that Davies had decided to stand and had the support of the party.

    The timing is very awkward, though. If they call it at once, I bleieve the result will come a couple of days after the leadership result.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    Having said that, 1/5 doesn't look much value, even though the LDs ought to be confident, and rightly ought to be favourites. The situation is far too fluid for those kinds of prices.
  • MrsBMrsB Posts: 574
    maybe it is a cunning plan so that when the Tories lose the seat they can blame it on the candidate rather than have to accept the problem was the brand.
  • flagmanflagman Posts: 2
    Hello, have £2 on Betfair exchange on J. Hunt to win ( small change I know, just learning the ropes ) winning £25 , what do I do now ? Thanks for any answers. I really just want a pick up , I can’t lay Hunt as the £2 minimum bet will leave me levels. Does anyone think the prices will fluctuate without a game changing incident ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited June 2019

    I think personal loyalties kick in here. I didn't really feel happy with Labour instantly disavowing the former Peterborough MP. Clearly it's awkward and increases the risk of losing, but I don't think Johnson and Hunt really had an alternative option, given that Davies had decided to stand and had the support of the party.

    The timing is very awkward, though. If they call it at once, I bleieve the result will come a couple of days after the leadership result.

    I agree and of course Davies was not jailed unlike Fiona Onasanya just fined and given community service
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    dixiedean said:

    Also. Is this the only seat Labour polled worse in 97 than 87?

    Newbury is in that category.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    flagman said:

    Hello, have £2 on Betfair exchange on J. Hunt to win ( small change I know, just learning the ropes ) winning £25 , what do I do now ? Thanks for any answers. I really just want a pick up , I can’t lay Hunt as the £2 minimum bet will leave me levels. Does anyone think the prices will fluctuate without a game changing incident ?

    I personally do not think that the price will fluctuate much (short of fairly dramatic events) but Mike Smithson (more of an expert than I am) thinks that it will.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    edited June 2019
    MrsB said:

    maybe it is a cunning plan so that when the Tories lose the seat they can blame it on the candidate rather than have to accept the problem was the brand.

    You might have something there. I cannot think it sensible otherwise

    I think personal loyalties kick in here. I didn't really feel happy with Labour instantly disavowing the former Peterborough MP.

    God forbid people who commit crimes in office should not retain the support of their parties. They stuck with her until conviction, and her appeal seems to have been a waste of time, so I don't really see how Labour 'instantly' disavowed the woman. At what point is it reasonable for a party to not keep carrying the can for a criminal?

    Historic offences, that's something different of course. And in this case the sentence was far less so it is not as obvious a decision to not back them, but tactically it feels risky. Not that it is unherd of in the world for recalled people to win a sunsequent by-election, but when the Tories were likely to be struggling anyway for various reasons it's a complication they could do without, and certianly not the ridiculous suggestion parties should feel obliged to stand by people in these situations.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Bradford West and Bethnal Green also had lower Labour votes in 1997 compaed to 1987, although the situation is complicated by the fact that most seats experienced boundary changes between 1992 and 1997.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    Congrats Sri Lanka.

    A few thoughts:

    1) Low scoring games are more fun - although it wasn't low scoring by historical standards

    2) One day cricket is a better test than one day hitting

    3) Its a lot harder to chase when the pressure is on

    4) All the "we can chase anything, 500 is within reach" talk was silly

    5) Good judgement is needed - its better to pick up an easy one or two after hitting a six

    500 is within reach, they almost made it once and probably should have in the game they nearly did as they stalled right at the end. But the general points are true, and they cannot chase everything.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    rcs1000 said:

    On topic.

    19% supported the petition. I'm going to go with that 19% breaking 80% for the LDs.

    Assume 50% turnout. That means the LDs start on 32%.

    That's probably not enough. For the LDs to win this either:

    a) turnout has to be more like 40%
    or
    b) the Brexit Party has to split the Leave vote

    The Tories held up better than many expected in Peterborough (while still massively down of course), so if you factor that in as likely to happen here as well then it adds to the LD chances I'd have thought.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,679
    dixiedean said:

    Also. Is this the only seat Labour polled worse in 97 than 87?

    Newbury and West Bromwich West I think.

    Newbury was down to tactical voting for the Lib Dems.

    The latter was a seat Labour didn't contest in 1997 because Betty Boothroyd was standing as 'Speaker seeking re-election.'
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    OK, night all. It's Friday - I'm off to get 'cocked and loaded'.
    :wink:
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    HYUFD said:
    All in pursuit of Boris. How funny.

    If true, what is clear is that Boris has some serious debts to repay.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    kinabalu said:

    flagman said:

    Hello, have £2 on Betfair exchange on J. Hunt to win ( small change I know, just learning the ropes ) winning £25 , what do I do now ? Thanks for any answers. I really just want a pick up , I can’t lay Hunt as the £2 minimum bet will leave me levels. Does anyone think the prices will fluctuate without a game changing incident ?

    I personally do not think that the price will fluctuate much (short of fairly dramatic events) but Mike Smithson (more of an expert than I am) thinks that it will.
    Its £2 - Let it Ride! (otherwise why put it on in the first place!)
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    It’s quite obvious why he and the party are happy for him to stand, they believe it will be easier to defend his conviction for expenses fraud than to defend their record. They want the election to be about their perceived view that the fraud was trivial. Well we will have to see how that plays out but given past by elections when the election was a direct result of terrorism the incumbent still ost I have my doubts.
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    Do you know what the initial betting was for the by-election in 1985? I guess it was something like this:

    Labour 1/5
    Conservative 4/1
    Liberal 10/1

    Also, I wonder how often the media will mention Ystradgynlais. In 1985 they went on and on about Ystradgynlais all the time.
  • SirBenjaminSirBenjamin Posts: 238
    HYUFD said:

    To be fair to Davies he gained the seat from the LDs in 2015 and increased the Tories voteshare in the seat in 2017 to the highest it has ever been since the 1960s so why should he not stand again? He has faced the punishment of the courts for the expenses row and was a well known local auctioneer, only a minority of voters signed the petition (likely almost all Liberals anyway) so why should he not stand again and let the voters decide his fate?

    There is a danger that we'll start to see the emergence of opportunistic and partisan recall petitions, which have little relation to with what the incumbent may or may not have done and everything to do with the marginality of the seat and how organised the opposition are. Which would be horrible.

    Davies standing and winning should nip that in the bud.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    Will Labour fight hard, or put up a paper candidate up? There is17.7% of the vote up for grabs in a seat which could reduce the government majority to 2(?)
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    edited June 2019
    kinabalu said:

    I'm off to get 'cocked and loaded'.
    :wink:

    :open_mouth:
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    HYUFD said:

    To be fair to Davies he gained the seat from the LDs in 2015 and increased the Tories voteshare in the seat in 2017 to the highest it has ever been since the 1960s so why should he not stand again? He has faced the punishment of the courts for the expenses row and was a well known local auctioneer, only a minority of voters signed the petition (likely almost all Liberals anyway) so why should he not stand again and let the voters decide his fate?

    There is a danger that we'll start to see the emergence of opportunistic and partisan recall petitions, which have little relation to with what the incumbent may or may not have done and everything to do with the marginality of the seat and how organised the opposition are. Which would be horrible.

    Davies standing and winning should nip that in the bud.
    He broke the law and was convicted, if you read up the detail it wasn’t just ‘a mistake’ it was a deliberate attempt to offload a bill he would have otherwise had to pay himself onto another budget, and involved falsifying invoices. If that is a opportunistic and partisan then so be it he should not have been as stupid.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    I wonder if Incumbency will be a plus or a minus in these circumstances?

    Certainly, it makes sense for the Tories to push this by-election into the long-grass as if there is an autumn GE: Why bother would be the Tory argument!

    A longer time-frame also allows for any Boris popularity to rub off on the Tory candidate. On the other side of the coin in the 1990s the Tories were deemed to have made a mistake by not having the by-elections early and instead allowed momentum to build behind the LD campaigns in Newbury and Eastleigh for instance. I suppose it depends on whether the Tories have already written the seat off or whether they think they can hold it.

    Another interesting variable in this is Brexit, the now ex-Tory MP was in favour of Brexit and consequently voted for it. His vote will be missed on any early voting on the course of action the Tories want to take under new leadership in Parliament.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited June 2019
    If there is a clear intent to call an Autumn election, I see no point in the Tories moving the writ at all.
    Turnout at the 1985 by election was 79.4%.
    There were boundary changes in this seat which took effect from 1983.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    edited June 2019
    justin124 said:

    If there is a clear intent to call an Autumn election, I see no point in the Tories moving the writ at all.
    Turnout at the 1985 by election was 79.4%.
    There were boundary changes in this seat which took effect from 1983.

    If the writ isn’t moved by Wednesday the lib dems will move it and let’s see how voting that down is received.
  • PaulMPaulM Posts: 613
    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic.

    19% supported the petition. I'm going to go with that 19% breaking 80% for the LDs.

    Assume 50% turnout. That means the LDs start on 32%.

    That's probably not enough. For the LDs to win this either:

    a) turnout has to be more like 40%
    or
    b) the Brexit Party has to split the Leave vote

    The Tories held up better than many expected in Peterborough (while still massively down of course), so if you factor that in as likely to happen here as well then it adds to the LD chances I'd have thought.
    Does the recall petition include names and addresses ? If so then the local LibDems know where there 32% live, which had to be a huge help.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    justin124 said:

    If there is a clear intent to call an Autumn election, I see no point in the Tories moving the writ at all.
    Turnout at the 1985 by election was 79.4%.
    There were boundary changes in this seat which took effect from 1983.

    Depends on when they will admit that there is intent to call for a GE.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    nichomar said:

    justin124 said:

    If there is a clear intent to call an Autumn election, I see no point in the Tories moving the writ at all.
    Turnout at the 1985 by election was 79.4%.
    There were boundary changes in this seat which took effect from 1983.

    If the writ isn’t moved by Wednesday the lib dems will move it and let’s see how voting that down is received.
    Even that would not really matter - because in the event of an Autumn GE the by election will never take place.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited June 2019

    HYUFD said:

    To be fair to Davies he gained the seat from the LDs in 2015 and increased the Tories voteshare in the seat in 2017 to the highest it has ever been since the 1960s so why should he not stand again? He has faced the punishment of the courts for the expenses row and was a well known local auctioneer, only a minority of voters signed the petition (likely almost all Liberals anyway) so why should he not stand again and let the voters decide his fate?

    There is a danger that we'll start to see the emergence of opportunistic and partisan recall petitions, which have little relation to with what the incumbent may or may not have done and everything to do with the marginality of the seat and how organised the opposition are. Which would be horrible.

    Davies standing and winning should nip that in the bud.
    Agreed, he has faced his punishment.

    Had he been jailed and could not represent his constituents that may have been different otherwise he seems a popular local MP (he was a local rural auctioneer and vet in Hay on Wye before being elected) and this is just LD opportunism.

    Plus Powys voted Leave so it is not the type of area LDs have seen their strongest resurgence in.

    Labour of course held Peterborough despite the recall and I would not rule out the Tories here too
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    justin124 said:

    nichomar said:

    justin124 said:

    If there is a clear intent to call an Autumn election, I see no point in the Tories moving the writ at all.
    Turnout at the 1985 by election was 79.4%.
    There were boundary changes in this seat which took effect from 1983.

    If the writ isn’t moved by Wednesday the lib dems will move it and let’s see how voting that down is received.
    Even that would not really matter - because in the event of an Autumn GE the by election will never take place.
    That is correct, it would be the act of voting the writ down that would be seen as running scared.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    To be fair to Davies he gained the seat from the LDs in 2015 and increased the Tories voteshare in the seat in 2017 to the highest it has ever been since the 1960s so why should he not stand again? He has faced the punishment of the courts for the expenses row and was a well known local auctioneer, only a minority of voters signed the petition (likely almost all Liberals anyway) so why should he not stand again and let the voters decide his fate?

    There is a danger that we'll start to see the emergence of opportunistic and partisan recall petitions, which have little relation to with what the incumbent may or may not have done and everything to do with the marginality of the seat and how organised the opposition are. Which would be horrible.

    Davies standing and winning should nip that in the bud.
    Agreed, he has faced his punishment.

    Had he been jailed and could not represent his constituents that may have been different otherwise he seems a popular local MP and this is just LD opportunism.

    Plus Powys voted Leave so it is not the type of area LDs have seen their strongest resurgence in
    So fiddling your expenses for personal gain if fine if you don’t go to jail? As I said earlier this was not an accounting error but a deliberate attempt, by forged invoices, to allocate spend to a different budget.he should have paid up when it was pointed out to him but he didn’t.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    nichomar said:

    justin124 said:

    nichomar said:

    justin124 said:

    If there is a clear intent to call an Autumn election, I see no point in the Tories moving the writ at all.
    Turnout at the 1985 by election was 79.4%.
    There were boundary changes in this seat which took effect from 1983.

    If the writ isn’t moved by Wednesday the lib dems will move it and let’s see how voting that down is received.
    Even that would not really matter - because in the event of an Autumn GE the by election will never take place.
    That is correct, it would be the act of voting the writ down that would be seen as running scared.
    But who would really care about that? It would be lost in the noise of the later GE campaign. It is a convention that the incumbent party moves the writ for any by election and there is no requirement that that must occur within a few days of a vacancy arising.
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,052

    HYUFD said:

    To be fair to Davies he gained the seat from the LDs in 2015 and increased the Tories voteshare in the seat in 2017 to the highest it has ever been since the 1960s so why should he not stand again? He has faced the punishment of the courts for the expenses row and was a well known local auctioneer, only a minority of voters signed the petition (likely almost all Liberals anyway) so why should he not stand again and let the voters decide his fate?

    There is a danger that we'll start to see the emergence of opportunistic and partisan recall petitions, which have little relation to with what the incumbent may or may not have done and everything to do with the marginality of the seat and how organised the opposition are. Which would be horrible.

    Davies standing and winning should nip that in the bud.
    No. That's not how recall petitions work.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    HYUFD said:

    To be fair to Davies he gained the seat from the LDs in 2015 and increased the Tories voteshare in the seat in 2017 to the highest it has ever been since the 1960s so why should he not stand again? He has faced the punishment of the courts for the expenses row and was a well known local auctioneer, only a minority of voters signed the petition (likely almost all Liberals anyway) so why should he not stand again and let the voters decide his fate?

    There is a danger that we'll start to see the emergence of opportunistic and partisan recall petitions, which have little relation to with what the incumbent may or may not have done and everything to do with the marginality of the seat and how organised the opposition are. Which would be horrible.
    I don't inherently have anything against this. If the constituents want an MP gone, they should be able to get rid of them, whatever the reason. However the mechanics might need to be changed somewhat- I'm not sure if the 10% threshold is high enough, and there'd need to be some defense against repeat attempts.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    justin124 said:

    nichomar said:

    justin124 said:

    nichomar said:

    justin124 said:

    If there is a clear intent to call an Autumn election, I see no point in the Tories moving the writ at all.
    Turnout at the 1985 by election was 79.4%.
    There were boundary changes in this seat which took effect from 1983.

    If the writ isn’t moved by Wednesday the lib dems will move it and let’s see how voting that down is received.
    Even that would not really matter - because in the event of an Autumn GE the by election will never take place.
    That is correct, it would be the act of voting the writ down that would be seen as running scared.
    But who would really care about that? It would be lost in the noise of the later GE campaign. It is a convention that the incumbent party moves the writ for any by election and there is no requirement that that must occur within a few days of a vacancy arising.
    Let’s see how it plays out, if there is a GE then it will be lost, if there isn’t they will be accused of depriving the constituents of an MP for party political reasons.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798

    Congrats Sri Lanka.

    A few thoughts:

    1) Low scoring games are more fun - although it wasn't low scoring by historical standards

    2) One day cricket is a better test than one day hitting

    3) Its a lot harder to chase when the pressure is on

    4) All the "we can chase anything, 500 is within reach" talk was silly

    5) Good judgement is needed - its better to pick up an easy one or two after hitting a six

    Going to Leeds to see my Sri Lankan in-laws tomorrow. Should have gone up this morning!
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    nichomar said:

    justin124 said:

    nichomar said:

    justin124 said:

    nichomar said:

    justin124 said:

    If there is a clear intent to call an Autumn election, I see no point in the Tories moving the writ at all.
    Turnout at the 1985 by election was 79.4%.
    There were boundary changes in this seat which took effect from 1983.

    If the writ isn’t moved by Wednesday the lib dems will move it and let’s see how voting that down is received.
    Even that would not really matter - because in the event of an Autumn GE the by election will never take place.
    That is correct, it would be the act of voting the writ down that would be seen as running scared.
    But who would really care about that? It would be lost in the noise of the later GE campaign. It is a convention that the incumbent party moves the writ for any by election and there is no requirement that that must occur within a few days of a vacancy arising.
    Let’s see how it plays out, if there is a GE then it will be lost, if there isn’t they will be accused of depriving the constituents of an MP for party political reasons.
    The LibDems could face criticism by seeking to move the writ so early in breach of the established convention - though they got away with that in the case of the Oldham East & Saddleworth by election.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    justin124 said:

    nichomar said:

    justin124 said:

    nichomar said:

    justin124 said:

    nichomar said:

    justin124 said:

    If there is a clear intent to call an Autumn election, I see no point in the Tories moving the writ at all.
    Turnout at the 1985 by election was 79.4%.
    There were boundary changes in this seat which took effect from 1983.

    If the writ isn’t moved by Wednesday the lib dems will move it and let’s see how voting that down is received.
    Even that would not really matter - because in the event of an Autumn GE the by election will never take place.
    That is correct, it would be the act of voting the writ down that would be seen as running scared.
    But who would really care about that? It would be lost in the noise of the later GE campaign. It is a convention that the incumbent party moves the writ for any by election and there is no requirement that that must occur within a few days of a vacancy arising.
    Let’s see how it plays out, if there is a GE then it will be lost, if there isn’t they will be accused of depriving the constituents of an MP for party political reasons.
    The LibDems could face criticism by seeking to move the writ so early in breach of the established convention - though they got away with that in the case of the Oldham East & Saddleworth by election.
    To be honest the convention exists to allow a party, in the event of a death, to mourn and wait a respectful time before seeking to replace them. Beyond that it is, in my opinion, irrelevant.
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    Perhaps the by-election should be held In August. Given postal voting played such a blinder in the last by-election I can't see the problem.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    To be fair to Davies he gained the seat from the LDs in 2015 and increased the Tories voteshare in the seat in 2017 to the highest it has ever been since the 1960s so why should he not stand again? He has faced the punishment of the courts for the expenses row and was a well known local auctioneer, only a minority of voters signed the petition (likely almost all Liberals anyway) so why should he not stand again and let the voters decide his fate?

    There is a danger that we'll start to see the emergence of opportunistic and partisan recall petitions, which have little relation to with what the incumbent may or may not have done and everything to do with the marginality of the seat and how organised the opposition are. Which would be horrible.

    Davies standing and winning should nip that in the bud.
    Agreed, he has faced his punishment.

    Had he been jailed and could not represent his constituents that may have been different otherwise he seems a popular local MP and this is just LD opportunism.

    Plus Powys voted Leave so it is not the type of area LDs have seen their strongest resurgence in
    So fiddling your expenses for personal gain if fine if you don’t go to jail? As I said earlier this was not an accounting error but a deliberate attempt, by forged invoices, to allocate spend to a different budget.he should have paid up when it was pointed out to him but he didn’t.
    Well the voters will decide then, other at the by election or at the next general election but it could have saved the expense of the former and waited until the latter
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    HYUFD said:
    I wonder what the eventual ratio of Leavers to Remainers will be in this selected set of conversations with voters.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    I don't suppose we'll ever know, but it would be interesting to get an idea of how much of the 19% support for the recall was motivated by moral indignation at his expenses fiddle, and how much by wanting a by-election to make a national political point about Brexit or the government generally. My hunch would be that the latter was quite an important component.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    To be fair to Davies he gained the seat from the LDs in 2015 and increased the Tories voteshare in the seat in 2017 to the highest it has ever been since the 1960s so why should he not stand again? He has faced the punishment of the courts for the expenses row and was a well known local auctioneer, only a minority of voters signed the petition (likely almost all Liberals anyway) so why should he not stand again and let the voters decide his fate?

    There is a danger that we'll start to see the emergence of opportunistic and partisan recall petitions, which have little relation to with what the incumbent may or may not have done and everything to do with the marginality of the seat and how organised the opposition are. Which would be horrible.

    Davies standing and winning should nip that in the bud.
    Agreed, he has faced his punishment.

    Had he been jailed and could not represent his constituents that may have been different otherwise he seems a popular local MP and this is just LD opportunism.

    Plus Powys voted Leave so it is not the type of area LDs have seen their strongest resurgence in
    So fiddling your expenses for personal gain if fine if you don’t go to jail? As I said earlier this was not an accounting error but a deliberate attempt, by forged invoices, to allocate spend to a different budget.he should have paid up when it was pointed out to him but he didn’t.
    Well the voters will decide then, other at the by election or at the next general election but it could have saved the expense of the former and waited until the latter
    Well it could be 2022 but ok they can live with an Mp who is still claiming it was a mistake. It was not it was a deliberate attempt to avoid paying for the mistake out of his own pocket.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    I don't suppose we'll ever know, but it would be interesting to get an idea of how much of the 19% support for the recall was motivated by moral indignation at his expenses fiddle, and how much by wanting a by-election to make a national political point about Brexit or the government generally. My hunch would be that the latter was quite an important component.

    If it encourages MPs not to commit criminal offences that put them at the risk of recall, that’s an immediate social good.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    I don't suppose we'll ever know, but it would be interesting to get an idea of how much of the 19% support for the recall was motivated by moral indignation at his expenses fiddle, and how much by wanting a by-election to make a national political point about Brexit or the government generally. My hunch would be that the latter was quite an important component.

    If it encourages MPs not to commit criminal offences that put them at the risk of recall, that’s an immediate social good.
    Or at least encourages them not to get caught!
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    I don't suppose we'll ever know, but it would be interesting to get an idea of how much of the 19% support for the recall was motivated by moral indignation at his expenses fiddle, and how much by wanting a by-election to make a national political point about Brexit or the government generally. My hunch would be that the latter was quite an important component.

    Deleted


  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    To be fair to Davies he gained the seat from the LDs in 2015 and increased the Tories voteshare in the seat in 2017 to the highest it has ever been since the 1960s so why should he not stand again? He has faced the punishment of the courts for the expenses row and was a well known local auctioneer, only a minority of voters signed the petition (likely almost all Liberals anyway) so why should he not stand again and let the voters decide his fate?

    There is a danger that we'll start to see the emergence of opportunistic and partisan recall petitions, which have little relation to with what the incumbent may or may not have done and everything to do with the marginality of the seat and how organised the opposition are. Which would be horrible.

    Davies standing and winning should nip that in the bud.
    Agreed, he has faced his punishment.

    Had he been jailed and could not represent his constituents that may have been different otherwise he seems a popular local MP and this is just LD opportunism.

    Plus Powys voted Leave so it is not the type of area LDs have seen their strongest resurgence in
    So fiddling your expenses for personal gain if fine if you don’t go to jail? As I said earlier this was not an accounting error but a deliberate attempt, by forged invoices, to allocate spend to a different budget.he should have paid up when it was pointed out to him but he didn’t.
    Well the voters will decide then, other at the by election or at the next general election but it could have saved the expense of the former and waited until the latter
    Well it could be 2022 but ok they can live with an Mp who is still claiming it was a mistake. It was not it was a deliberate attempt to avoid paying for the mistake out of his own pocket.
    Which was already dealt with by the courts without a custodial sentence
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    So anyway, I'm off the clock. I'm on the train, the first of many in a ridiculously long commute. During this time there will be loud drunks, nasty drunks, hen parties, tables strewn with cans, people vaping. There will be tramps and people with arm sores and people with bad tattoos - as in full-face tattoos. Somebody will talk incredibly loudly on a phone, somebody will have a go at the staff. There will be loudness, it will be unpleasant. If I'm really unlucky somebody will have a go, not at me, but at somebody else. Mostly it's handbags, but sometimes it's more serious and it's always shocking. But I am very good at keeping my head down and becoming invisible, or at least unremarked. I will get back home at some time between 10 and midnight.

    I see last night a pleasant dinner was interrupted by a woman protester who was manhandled out of the room by a man. There was little noise, no blood, not even bruises. The protestor was shaken and somewhat upset. The general consensus amongst the chatterati is that this was appalling violence that is not permissible in this day and age.

    It is a different world.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited June 2019
    Just read the article.

    Guardian had a recording from a neighbour of Carrie screaming at Boris after he spilt red wine on the sofa after he told her to get off his laptop.

    Police were called but obviously no action was taken and neither party made a complaint. Just a row that happens to couples across the country and neighbour probably a Remainer
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    To be fair to Davies he gained the seat from the LDs in 2015 and increased the Tories voteshare in the seat in 2017 to the highest it has ever been since the 1960s so why should he not stand again? He has faced the punishment of the courts for the expenses row and was a well known local auctioneer, only a minority of voters signed the petition (likely almost all Liberals anyway) so why should he not stand again and let the voters decide his fate?

    There is a danger that we'll start to see the emergence of opportunistic and partisan recall petitions, which have little relation to with what the incumbent may or may not have done and everything to do with the marginality of the seat and how organised the opposition are. Which would be horrible.

    Davies standing and winning should nip that in the bud.
    Agreed, he has faced his punishment.

    Had he been jailed and could not represent his constituents that may have been different otherwise he seems a popular local MP and this is just LD opportunism.

    Plus Powys voted Leave so it is not the type of area LDs have seen their strongest resurgence in
    So fiddling your expenses for personal gain if fine if you don’t go to jail? As I said earlier this was not an accounting error but a deliberate attempt, by forged invoices, to allocate spend to a different budget.he should have paid up when it was pointed out to him but he didn’t.
    Well the voters will decide then, other at the by election or at the next general election but it could have saved the expense of the former and waited until the latter
    Well it could be 2022 but ok they can live with an Mp who is still claiming it was a mistake. It was not it was a deliberate attempt to avoid paying for the mistake out of his own pocket.
    Which was already dealt with by the courts without a custodial sentence
    Come on he still broke the law, deliberately, the recall laws specifically state expense fraud is a valid case for recall, the fact that he escaped jail is irrelevant. He has be found guilty of falling below the standard expected by a elected representative, has faced a recall petition, has been recalled. It’s up to the electors in B&R now what happens next.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Thought it was a dead cat?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    The recall petition is a stupidity filter.

    Both Chris Davies and Fiona Onasanya were incredibly thick. Parliament is better off without their services.

    The Tories will lose if Chris Davies stands again.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    To be fair to Davies he gained the seat from the LDs in 2015 and increased the Tories voteshare in the seat in 2017 to the highest it has ever been since the 1960s so why should he not stand again? He has faced the punishment of the courts for the expenses row and was a well known local auctioneer, only a minority of voters signed the petition (likely almost all Liberals anyway) so why should he not stand again and let the voters decide his fate?

    There is a danger that we'll start to see the emergence of opportunistic and partisan recall petitions, which have little relation to with what the incumbent may or may not have done and everything to do with the marginality of the seat and how organised the opposition are. Which would be horrible.

    Davies standing and winning should nip that in the bud.
    Agreed, he has faced his punishment.

    Had he been jailed and could not represent his constituents that may have been different otherwise he seems a popular local MP and this is just LD opportunism.

    Plus Powys voted Leave so it is not the type of area LDs have seen their strongest resurgence in
    So fiddling your expenses for personal gain if fine if you don’t go to jail? As I said earlier this was not an accounting error but a deliberate attempt, by forged invoices, to allocate spend to a different budget.he should have paid up when it was pointed out to him but he didn’t.
    Well the voters will decide then, other at the by election or at the next general election but it could have saved the expense of the former and waited until the latter
    Well it could be 2022 but ok they can live with an Mp who is still claiming it was a mistake. It was not it was a deliberate attempt to avoid paying for the mistake out of his own pocket.
    Which was already dealt with by the courts without a custodial sentence
    Come on he still broke the law, deliberately, the recall laws specifically state expense fraud is a valid case for recall, the fact that he escaped jail is irrelevant. He has be found guilty of falling below the standard expected by a elected representative, has faced a recall petition, has been recalled. It’s up to the electors in B&R now what happens next.
    In your opinion because you are anti Tory and want a by election no matter the expense.

    He was not jailed and can still represent his constituents perfectly well.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    nichomar said:


    Come on he still broke the law, deliberately, the recall laws specifically state expense fraud is a valid case for recall, the fact that he escaped jail is irrelevant. He has be found guilty of falling below the standard expected by a elected representative, has faced a recall petition, has been recalled. It’s up to the electors in B&R now what happens next.


    Although I do wonder if the whole recall mechanism might end up becoming too politicised, there doesn't seem much to argue with here.

    Don't want to get pinged for fiddling your expenses? Then don't fiddle your expenses. It's that simple - doesn't matter why you did it.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038
    nichomar said:

    Thought it was a dead cat?

    I thought that Field was the dead cat, but I couldn't figure what he was distracting us from.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    To be fair to Davies he gained the seat from the LDs in 2015 and increased the Tories voteshare in the seat in 2017 to the highest it has ever been since the 1960s so why should he not stand again? He has faced the punishment of the courts for the expenses row and was a well known local auctioneer, only a minority of voters signed the petition (likely almost all Liberals anyway) so why should he not stand again and let the voters decide his fate?

    There is a danger that we'll start to see the emergence of opportunistic and partisan recall petitions, which have little relation to with what the incumbent may or may not have done and everything to do with the marginality of the seat and how organised the opposition are. Which would be horrible.

    Davies standing and winning should nip that in the bud.
    Agreed, he has faced his punishment.

    Had he been jailed and could not represent his constituents that may have been different otherwise he seems a popular local MP and this is just LD opportunism.

    Plus Powys voted Leave so it is not the type of area LDs have seen their strongest resurgence in
    So fiddling your expenses for personal gain if fine if you don’t go to jail? As I said earlier this was not an accounting error but a deliberate attempt, by forged invoices, to allocate spend to a different budget.he should have paid up when it was pointed out to him but he didn’t.
    Well the voters will decide then, other at the by election or at the next general election but it could have saved the expense of the former and waited until the latter
    Well it could be 2022 but ok they can live with an Mp who is still claiming it was a mistake. It was not it was a deliberate attempt to avoid paying for the mistake out of his own pocket.
    Which was already dealt with by the courts without a custodial sentence
    Come on he still broke the law, deliberately, the recall laws specifically state expense fraud is a valid case for recall, the fact that he escaped jail is irrelevant. He has be found guilty of falling below the standard expected by a elected representative, has faced a recall petition, has been recalled. It’s up to the electors in B&R now what happens next.
    In your opinion because you are anti Tory and want a by election no matter the expense.

    He was not jailed and can still represent his constituents perfectly well.
    He deliberately fiddled his expenses what’s your problem?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    To be fair to Davies he gained the seat from the LDs in 2015 and increased the Tories voteshare in the seat in 2017 to the highest it has ever been since the 1960s so why should he not stand again? He has faced the punishment of the courts for the expenses row and was a well known local auctioneer, only a minority of voters signed the petition (likely almost all Liberals anyway) so why should he not stand again and let the voters decide his fate?

    There is a danger that we'll start to see the emergence of opportunistic and partisan recall petitions, which have little relation to with what the incumbent may or may not have done and everything to do with the marginality of the seat and how organised the opposition are. Which would be horrible.

    Davies standing and winning should nip that in the bud.
    Agreed, he has faced his punishment.

    Had he been jailed and could not represent his constituents that may have been different otherwise he seems a popular local MP and this is just LD opportunism.

    Plus Powys voted Leave so it is not the type of area LDs have seen their strongest resurgence in
    So fiddling your expenses for personal gain if fine if you don’t go to jail? As I said earlier this was not an accounting error but a deliberate attempt, by forged invoices, to allocate spend to a different budget.he should have paid up when it was pointed out to him but he didn’t.
    Well the voters will decide then, other at the by election or at the next general election but it could have saved the expense of the former and waited until the latter
    Well it could be 2022 but ok they can live with an Mp who is still claiming it was a mistake. It was not it was a deliberate attempt to avoid paying for the mistake out of his own pocket.
    Which was already dealt with by the courts without a custodial sentence
    Come on he still broke the law, deliberately, the recall laws specifically state expense fraud is a valid case for recall, the fact that he escaped jail is irrelevant. He has be found guilty of falling below the standard expected by a elected representative, has faced a recall petition, has been recalled. It’s up to the electors in B&R now what happens next.
    In your opinion because you are anti Tory and want a by election no matter the expense.

    He was not jailed and can still represent his constituents perfectly well.
    He deliberately fiddled his expenses what’s your problem?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    nichomar said:

    Thought it was a dead cat?

    I thought that Field was the dead cat, but I couldn't figure what he was distracting us from.
    I’m wrong dead cat bounce is an attempt to shift the financial markets, but maybe black flag?
  • I see Boris has failed to delete his browsing history.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038
    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    Thought it was a dead cat?

    I thought that Field was the dead cat, but I couldn't figure what he was distracting us from.
    I’m wrong dead cat bounce is an attempt to shift the financial markets, but maybe black flag?
    'Throwing a dead cat on the table' is a way to cause a distraction.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    To be fair to Davies he gained the seat from the LDs in 2015 and increased the Tories voteshare in the seat in 2017 to the highest it has ever been since the 1960s so why should he not stand again? He has faced the punishment of the courts for the expenses row and was a well known local auctioneer, only a minority of voters signed the petition (likely almost all Liberals anyway) so why should he not stand again and let the voters decide his fate?

    There is a danger that we'll start to see the emergence of opportunistic and partisan recall petitions, which have little relation to with what the incumbent may or may not have done and everything to do with the marginality of the seat and how organised the opposition are. Which would be horrible.

    Davies standing and winning should nip that in the bud.
    Agreed, he has faced his punishment.

    Had he been jailed and could not represent his constituents that may have been different otherwise he seems a popular local MP and this is just LD opportunism.

    Plus Powys voted Leave so it is not the type of area LDs have seen their strongest resurgence in
    So fiddling your expenses for personal gain if fine if you don’t go to jail? As I said earlier this was not an accounting error but a deliberate attempt, by forged invoices, to allocate spend to a different budget.he should have paid up when it was pointed out to him but he didn’t.
    Well the voters will decide then, other at the by election or at the next general election but it could have saved the expense of the former and waited until the latter
    Well it could be 2022 but ok they can live with an Mp who is still claiming it was a mistake. It was not it was a deliberate attempt to avoid paying for the mistake out of his own pocket.
    Which was already dealt with by the courts without a custodial sentence
    Come on he still broke the law, deliberately, the recall laws specifically state expense fraud is a valid case for recall, the fact that he escaped jail is irrelevant. He has be found guilty of falling below the standard expected by a elected representative, has faced a recall petition, has been recalled. It’s up to the electors in B&R now what happens next.
    In your opinion because you are anti Tory and want a by election no matter the expense.

    He was not jailed and can still represent his constituents perfectly well.
    Those who voted for the recall clearly differ.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    Thought it was a dead cat?

    I thought that Field was the dead cat, but I couldn't figure what he was distracting us from.
    I’m wrong dead cat bounce is an attempt to shift the financial markets, but maybe black flag?
    'Throwing a dead cat on the table' is a way to cause a distraction.
    Yes I suppose the complete opposite in this situation
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    Thought it was a dead cat?

    I thought that Field was the dead cat, but I couldn't figure what he was distracting us from.
    I’m wrong dead cat bounce is an attempt to shift the financial markets, but maybe black flag?
    'Throwing a dead cat on the table' is a way to cause a distraction.
    Or, if it’s been dead for a while, a real mess.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    Yougov crosstabs now out.

    The LDs are clearly now a middle class dominated party, they lead with ABC1s on 27% but are on just 13% with working class C2DEs on 13%.

    The Brexit Party are more working class leading on 28% with C2DEs and in 3rd on 20% with ABC1s as are Labour on 25% with C2DEs but just 17% with ABC1s.

    The Tories are more mixed on 21% with ABC1s and 20% with C2DEs.

    Regionally the LDs lead in London on 33%, the Brexit Party lead in the South on 28%, the Brexit Party and Tories are tied for the lead on 24% in the Midlands and Wales and Labour lead in the North on 28% and the SNP lead in Scotland on 43%

    By age Labour lead with 18 to 24s on 39%, the Tories lead with over 65s on 36%, the Brexit Party lead with 50 to 64 year olds on 33% and Labour and the LDs are tied with 25 to 49 year olds on 25% each

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/21/police-called-to-loud-altercation-at-boris-johnsons-home
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited June 2019
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    To be fair to Davies he gained the seat from the LDs in 2015 and increased the Tories voteshare in the seat in 2017 to the highest it has ever been since the 1960s so why should he not stand again? He has faced the punishment of the courts for the expenses row and was a well known local auctioneer, only a minority of voters signed the petition (likely almost all Liberals anyway) so why should he not stand again and let the voters decide his fate?

    There is a danger that we'll start to see the emergence of opportunistic and partisan recall petitions, which have little relation to with what the incumbent may or may not have done and everything to do with the marginality of the seat and how organised the opposition are. Which would be horrible.

    Davies standing and winning should nip that in the bud.
    Agreed, he has faced his punishment.

    Had he been jailed and could not represent his constituents that may have been different otherwise he seems a popular local MP and this is just LD opportunism.

    Plus Powys voted Leave so it is not the type of area LDs have seen their strongest resurgence in
    So fiddling your expenses for personal gain if fine if you don’t go to jail? As I said earlier this was not an accounting error but a deliberate attempt, by forged invoices, to allocate spend to a different budget.he should have paid up when it was pointed out to him but he didn’t.
    Well the voters will decide then, other at the by election or at the next general election but it could have saved the expense of the former and waited until the latter
    Well it could be 2022 but ok they can live with an Mp who is still claiming it was a mistake. It was not it was a deliberate attempt to avoid paying for the mistake out of his own pocket.
    Which was already dealt with by the courts without a custodial sentence
    Come on he still broke the law, deliberately, the recall laws specifically state expense fraud is a valid case for recall, the fact that he escaped jail is irrelevant. He has be found guilty of falling below the standard expected by a elected representative, has faced a recall petition, has been recalled. It’s up to the electors in B&R now what happens next.
    In your opinion because you are anti Tory and want a by election no matter the expense.

    He was not jailed and can still represent his constituents perfectly well.
    Those who voted for the recall clearly differ.
    Almost all LDs or Labour voters
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    To be fair to Davies he gained the seat from the LDs in 2015 and and let the voters decide his fate?

    There is a danger that we'll start to see the emergence of opportunistic and partisan recall petitions, which have little relation to with what the incumbent may or may not have done and everything to do with the marginality of the seat and how organised the opposition are. Which would be horrible.

    Davies standing and winning should nip that in the bud.
    Agreed, he has faced his punishment.

    Had he been jailed and could not represent his constituents that may have been different otherwise he seems a popular local MP and this is just LD opportunism.

    Plus Powys voted Leave so it is not the type of area LDs have seen their strongest resurgence in
    So fiddling your expenses for personal gain if fine if you don’t go to jail? As I said earlier this was not an accounting error but a deliberate attempt, by forged invoices, to allocate spend to a different budget.he should have paid up when it was pointed out to him but he didn’t.
    Well the voters will decide then, other at the by election or at the next general election but it could have saved the expense of the former and waited until the latter
    Well it could be 2022 but ok they can live with an Mp who is still claiming it was a mistake. It was not it was a deliberate attempt to avoid paying for the mistake out of his own pocket.
    Which was already dealt with by the courts without a custodial sentence
    Come on he still broke the law, deliberately, the recall laws specifically state expense fraud is a valid case for recall, the fact that he escaped jail is irrelevant. He has be found guilty of falling below the standard expected by a elected representative, has faced a recall petition, has been recalled. It’s up to the electors in B&R now what happens next.
    In your opinion because you are anti Tory and want a by election no matter the expense.

    He was not jailed and can still represent his constituents perfectly well.
    He deliberately fiddled his expenses what’s your problem?
    He faced the courts and was fined but not jailed and so can still do his job.

    Rather than let him be judged at a general election you forced an unnecessary and expensive by election
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    To be fair to Davies he gained the seat from the LDs in 2015 and increased the Tories voteshare in the seat in 2017 to the highest it has ever been since the 1960s so why should he not stand again? He has faced the punishment of the courts for the expenses row and was a well known local auctioneer, only a minority of voters signed the petition (likely almost all Liberals anyway) so why should he not stand again and let the voters decide his fate?

    There is a danger that we'll start to see the emergence of opportunistic and partisan recall petitions, which have little relation to with what the incumbent may or may not have

    Davies standing and winning should nip that in the bud.
    Agreed, he has faced his punishment.

    Had he been jailed and could not represent his constituents that may have been different otherwise he seems a popular local MP and this is just LD opportunism.

    Plus Powys voted Leave so it is not the type of area LDs have seen their strongest resurgence in
    So fiddling your expenses for personal gain if fine if you don’t go to jail? As I said earlier this was not an accounting error but a deliberate attempt, by forged invoices, tos pointed out to him but he didn’t.
    Well the voters will decide then, other at the by election or at the next general election but it could have saved the expense of the former and waited until the latter
    Well it could be 2022 but ok they can live with an Mp who is still claiming it was a mistake. It was not it was a deliberate attempt to avoid paying for the mistake out of his own pocket.
    Which was already dealt with by the courts without a custodial sentence
    Come on he still broke the law, deliberately, the recall laws specifically state expense fraud is a valid case for recall, the fact that he escaped jail is irrelevant. He has be found guilty of falling below the standard expected by a elected representative, has faced a recall petition, has been recalled. It’s up to the electors in B&R now what happens next.
    In your opinion because you are anti Tory and want a by election no matter the expense.

    He was not jailed and can still represent his constituents perfectly well.
    Those who voted for the recall clearly differ.
    Almost all LDs or Labour voters
    So you surmise (correctly or not) - and unlike you or me, his actual constituents.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Gove 140 to lay next Con leader
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    To be fair to Davies he gained the seat from the LDs in 2015 and increased the Tories voteshare in the seat in 2017 to the highest it has ever been since the 1960s so why should he not stand again? He has faced the punishment of the courts for the expenses row and was a well known local auctioneer, only a minority of voters signed the petition (likely almost all Liberals anyway) so why should he not stand again and let the voters decide his fate?



    Davies standing and winning should nip that in the bud.
    Agreed, he has faced his punishment.

    Had he been jailed and could not represent his constituents that may have been different otherwise he seems a popular local MP and this is just LD opportunism.

    Plus Powys voted Leave so it is not the type of area LDs have seen their strongest resurgence in
    So fiddling your expenses for personal gain if fine if you don’t go to jail? As I said earlier this was not an accounting error but a deliberate attempt, by forged invoices, to allocate spend to a different budget.he should have paid up when it was pointed out to him but he didn’t.
    Well the voters will decide then, other at the by election or at the next general election but it could have saved the expense of the former and waited until the latter
    Well it could be 2022 but ok they can live with an Mp who is still claiming it was a mistake. It was not it was a deliberate attempt to avoid paying for the mistake out of his own pocket.
    Which was already dealt with by the courts without a custodial sentence
    Come on he still broke the law, deliberately, the recall laws specifically state expense fraud is a valid case for recall, the fact that he escaped jail is irrelevant. He has be found guilty of falling below the standard expected by a elected representative, has faced a recall petition, has been recalled. It’s up to the electors in B&R now what happens next.
    In your opinion because you are anti Tory and want a by election no matter the expense.

    He was not jailed and can still represent his constituents perfectly well.
    Those who voted for the recall clearly differ.
    Almost all LDs or Labour voters
    Like to prove that assumption?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    To be fair to Davies he gained the seat from the LDs in 2015 and increased the Tories voteshare in the seat in 2017 to the highest it has ever been since the 1960s so why should he not stand again? He has faced the punishment of the courts for the expenses row and was a well known local auctioneer, only a minority of voters signed the petition (likely almost all Liberals anyway) so why should he not stand again and let the voters decide his fate?



    Davies standing and winning should nip that in the bud.
    Agreed, he has faced his punishment.

    Had he been jailed and could not represent his constituents that may have been different otherwise he seems a popular local MP and this is just LD opportunism.

    Plus Powys voted Leave so it is not the type of area LDs have seen their strongest resurgence in
    So fiddling your expenses for personal gain if fine if you don’t go to jail? As I said earlier this was not an accounting error but a deliberate attempt, by forged invoices, to allocate spend to a different budget.he should have paid up when it was pointed out to him but he didn’t.
    Well the voters will decide then, other at the by election or at the next general election but it could have saved the expense of the former and waited until the latter
    Well it could be 2022 but ok they can live with an Mp who is still claiming it was a mistake. It was not it was a deliberate attempt to avoid paying for the mistake out of his own pocket.
    Which was already dealt with by the courts without a custodial sentence
    Come on he still broke the law, deliberately, the recall laws specifically state expense fraud is a valid case for recall, the fact that he escaped jail is irrelevant. He has be found guilty of falling below the standard expected by a elected representative, has faced a recall petition, has been recalled. It’s up to the electors in B&R now what happens next.
    In your opinion because you are anti Tory and want a by election no matter the expense.

    He was not jailed and can still represent his constituents perfectly well.
    Those who voted for the recall clearly differ.
    Almost all LDs or Labour voters
    Like to prove that assumption?
    10 000 people signed it, 12 000 people voted LD in Brecon and Radnor at the 2017 general election
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,534
    HYUFD said:

    Just read the article.

    Guardian had a recording from a neighbour of Carrie screaming at Boris after he spilt red wine on the sofa after he told her to get off his laptop.

    Police were called but obviously no action was taken and neither party made a complaint. Just a row that happens to couples across the country and neighbour probably a Remainer
    Bloody awful neighbour whatever (s)he is - imagine actually recording your neighbours?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    Floater said:
    All a row over Boris spilling wine on the sofa as I already pointed out before, no action taken, no complaint by either party, neighbour likely a Remainer
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    To be fair to Davies he gained the seat from the LDs in 2015 and increased the Tories voteshare in the seat in 2017 to the highest it has ever been since the 1960s so why should he not stand again? He has faced the punishment of the courts for the expenses row and was a well known local auctioneer, only a minority of voters signed the petition (likely almost all Liberals anyway) so why should he not stand again and let the voters decide his fate?



    Davies standing and winning should nip that in the bud.
    Agreed, he has faced his punishment

    Plus Powys voted Leave so it is not the type of area LDs have seen their strongest resurgence in
    So fiddling your expenses for personal gain if fine if you don’t go to jail? As I said earlier this was not an accounting error but a deliberate attempt, by forged invoices, to allocate spend to a different budget.he should have paid up when it was pointed out to him but he didn’t.
    Well the voters will decide then, other at the by election or at the next general election but it could have saved the expense of the former and waited until the latter
    Well it could be 2022 but ok they can live with an Mp who is still claiming it was a mistake. It was not it was a deliberate attempt to avoid paying for the mistake out of his own pocket.
    Which was already dealt with by the courts without a custodial sentence
    Come on he still broke the law, deliberately, the recall laws specifically state expense fraud is a valid case for recall, the fact that he escaped jail is irrelevant. He has be found guilty of falling below the standard expected by a elected representative, has faced a recall petition, has been recalled. It’s up to the electors in B&R now what happens next.
    In your opinion because you are anti Tory and want a by election no matter the expense.

    He was not jailed and can still represent his constituents perfectly well.
    Those who voted for the recall clearly differ.
    Almost all LDs or Labour voters
    Like to prove that assumption?
    10 000 people signed it, 12 000 people voted LD in Brecon and Radnor at the 2017 general election
    So conservative voters don’t give a shit about their MP fiddling their expenses for personal gain, well that’s not really surprising.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    HYUFD said:

    Just read the article.

    Guardian had a recording from a neighbour of Carrie screaming at Boris after he spilt red wine on the sofa after he told her to get off his laptop.

    Police were called but obviously no action was taken and neither party made a complaint. Just a row that happens to couples across the country and neighbour probably a Remainer
    Bloody awful neighbour whatever (s)he is - imagine actually recording your neighbours?
    Then giving it to the Guardian as well
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    viewcode said:

    So anyway, I'm off the clock. I'm on the train, the first of many in a ridiculously long commute. During this time there will be loud drunks, nasty drunks, hen parties, tables strewn with cans, people vaping. There will be tramps and people with arm sores and people with bad tattoos - as in full-face tattoos. Somebody will talk incredibly loudly on a phone, somebody will have a go at the staff. There will be loudness, it will be unpleasant. If I'm really unlucky somebody will have a go, not at me, but at somebody else. Mostly it's handbags, but sometimes it's more serious and it's always shocking. But I am very good at keeping my head down and becoming invisible, or at least unremarked. I will get back home at some time between 10 and midnight.

    I see last night a pleasant dinner was interrupted by a woman protester who was manhandled out of the room by a man. There was little noise, no blood, not even bruises. The protestor was shaken and somewhat upset. The general consensus amongst the chatterati is that this was appalling violence that is not permissible in this day and age.

    It is a different world.

    The general consensus, I think, is actually that Field overreacted, was rather too forceful, and rightly apologised for it. And that is quite possibly the end of the matter.

    Clearly there are outlying opinions.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    To be fair to Davies he gained the seat from the LDs in 2015 and increased the Tories voteshare in the seat in 2017 to the highest it has ever been since the 1960s so why should he not stand again? He has faced the punishment of the courts for the expenses row and was a well known local auctioneer, only a minority of voters signed the petition (likely almost all Liberals anyway) so why should he not stand again and let the voters decide his fate?



    Davies standing and winning should nip that in the bud.
    Agreed, he has faced his punishment

    Plus Powys voted Leave so it is not the type of area LDs have seen their strongest resurgence in
    So fiddling your expenses for personal gain if fine if you don’t go to jail? As I said earlier this was not an accounting error but a deliberate attempt, by forged invoices, to allocate spend to a different budget.he should have paid up when it was pointed out to him but he didn’t.
    Well the voters will decide then, other at the by election or at the next general election but it could have saved the expense of the former and waited until the latter
    Well it could be 2022 but ok they can live with an Mp who is still claiming it was a mistake. It was not it was a deliberate attempt to avoid paying for the mistake out of his own pocket.
    Which was already dealt with by the courts without a custodial sentence
    Come on he still broke the law, deliberately, the recall laws specifically pens next.
    In your opinion because you are anti Tory and want a by election no matter the expense.

    He was not jailed and can still represent his constituents perfectly well.
    Those who voted for the recall clearly differ.
    Almost all LDs or Labour voters
    Like to prove that assumption?
    10 000 people signed it, 12 000 people voted LD in Brecon and Radnor at the 2017 general election
    So conservative voters don’t give a shit about their MP fiddling their expenses for personal gain, well that’s not really surprising.
    Conservative voters know him as a well respected former local vet and hard working MP who made a mistake and has taken his punishment
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    To be fair to Davies he gained the seat from the LDs in 2015 and and let the voters decide his fate?

    There is a danger that we'll start to see the emergence of opportunistic and partisan recall petitions, which have little relation to with what the incumbent may or may not have done and everything to do with the marginality of the seat and how organised the opposition are. Which would be horrible.

    Davies standing and winning should nip that in the bud.
    Agreed, he has faced his punishment.

    Had he been jailed and could not represent his constituents that may have been different otherwise he seems a popular local MP and this is just LD opportunism.

    Plus Powys voted Leave so it is not the type of area LDs have seen their strongest resurgence in
    So fiddling your expenses for personal gain if fine if you don’t go to jail? As I said earlier this was not an accounting error but a deliberate attempt, by forged invoices, to allocate spend to a different budget.he should have paid up when it was pointed out to him but he didn’t.
    Well the voters will decide then, other at the by election or at the next general election but it could have saved the expense of the former and waited until the latter
    Well it could be 2022 but ok they can live with an Mp who is still claiming it was a mistake. It was not it was a deliberate attempt to avoid paying for the mistake out of his own pocket.
    Which was already dealt with by the courts without a custodial sentence
    Come on he still broke the law, deliberately, the recall laws specifically state expense fraud is a valid case for recall, the fact that he escaped jail is irrelevant. He has be found guilty of falling below the standard expected by a elected representative, has faced a recall petition, has been recalled. It’s up to the electors in B&R now what happens next.
    In your opinion because you are anti Tory and want a by election no matter the expense.

    He was not jailed and can still represent his constituents perfectly well.
    He deliberately fiddled his expenses what’s your problem?
    He faced the courts and was fined but not jailed and so can still do his job.

    Rather than let him be judged at a general election you forced an unnecessary and expensive by election
    His constituents forced...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    edited June 2019

    I don't suppose we'll ever know, but it would be interesting to get an idea of how much of the 19% support for the recall was motivated by moral indignation at his expenses fiddle, and how much by wanting a by-election to make a national political point about Brexit or the government generally. My hunch would be that the latter was quite an important component.

    Probably, but that it still needs a trigger event makes that not particularly concerning, since no matter how much a point you want to make you cannot make it until they have done something that warrants a recall petition.
    HYUFD said:



    He faced the courts and was fined but not jailed and so can still do his job.

    Rather than let him be judged at a general election you forced an unnecessary and expensive by election

    The law is that it is perfectly valid to recall him and judge him now, if he restands, rather than wait for a GE. What's wrong with that? His constituents can tell him they are happy for him to continue in the job. You call that an unnecessary by-election, but that's just an opinion, others clearly disagreed and the law affords them that right, why condemn them for using it?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238

    HYUFD said:

    Just read the article.

    Guardian had a recording from a neighbour of Carrie screaming at Boris after he spilt red wine on the sofa after he told her to get off his laptop.

    Police were called but obviously no action was taken and neither party made a complaint. Just a row that happens to couples across the country and neighbour probably a Remainer
    Bloody awful neighbour whatever (s)he is - imagine actually recording your neighbours?
    Unless it’s a regular occurrence, and this was the last straw, it’s poor form.
    Though entirely within their rights.

  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    HYUFD said:

    Just read the article.

    Guardian had a recording from a neighbour of Carrie screaming at Boris after he spilt red wine on the sofa after he told her to get off his laptop.

    Police were called but obviously no action was taken and neither party made a complaint. Just a row that happens to couples across the country and neighbour probably a Remainer
    Bloody awful neighbour whatever (s)he is - imagine actually recording your neighbours?
    Yes, it does sound a bit odd! I wonder what else they have been recording?!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    To be fair to Davies he gained the seat from the LDs in 2015 and increased the Tories voteshare in the seat in 2017 to the highest it has ever been since the 1960s so why should he not stand again? He has faced the punishment of the courts for the expenses row and was a well known local auctioneer, only a minority of voters signed the petition (likely almost all Liberals anyway) so why should he not stand again and let the voters decide his fate?



    Davies standing and winning should nip that in the bud.
    Agreed, he has faced his punishment

    Plus Powys voted Leave so it is not the type of area LDs have seen their strongest resurgence in
    So fiddling your expenses for personal gain if fine if you don’t go to jail? As I said earlier this was not an accounting error but a deliberate attempt, by forged invoices, to allocate spend to a different budget.he should have paid up when it was pointed out to him but he didn’t.
    Well the voters will decide then, other at the by election or at the next general election but it could have saved the expense of the former and waited until the latter
    Well it could be 2022 but ok they can live with an Mp who is still claiming it was a mistake. It was not it was a deliberate attempt to avoid paying for the mistake out of his own pocket.
    Which was already dealt with by the courts without a custodial sentence
    Come on he still broke the law, deliberately, the recall laws specifically pens next.
    In your opinion because you are anti Tory and want a by election no matter the expense.

    He was not jailed and can still represent his constituents perfectly well.
    Those who voted for the recall clearly differ.
    Almost all LDs or Labour voters
    Like to prove that assumption?
    10 000 people signed it, 12 000 people voted LD in Brecon and Radnor at the 2017 general election
    So conservative voters don’t give a shit about their MP fiddling their expenses for personal gain, well that’s not really surprising.
    Conservative voters know him as a well respected former local vet and hard working MP who made a mistake and has taken his punishment
    You seem adept at mass mindreading.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038
    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    To be fair to Davies he gained the seat from the LDs in 2015 and increased the Tories voteshare in the seat in 2017 to the highest it has ever been since the 1960s so why should he not stand again? He has faced the punishment of the courts for the expenses row and was a well known local auctioneer, only a minority of voters signed the petition (likely almost all Liberals anyway) so why should he not stand again and let the voters decide his fate?



    Davies standing and winning should nip that in the bud.
    Agreed, he has faced his punishment

    Plus Powys voted Leave so it is not the type of area LDs have seen their strongest resurgence in
    So fiddling your expenses for personal gain if fine if you don’t go to jail? As I said earlier this was not an accounting error but a deliberate attempt, by forged invoices, to allocate spend to a different budget.he should have paid up when it was pointed out to him but he didn’t.
    Well the voters will decide then, other at the by election or at the next general election but it could have saved the expense of the former and waited until the latter
    Well it could be 2022 but ok they can live with an Mp who is still claiming it was a mistake. It was not it was a deliberate attempt to avoid paying for the mistake out of his own pocket.
    Which was already dealt with by the courts without a custodial sentence
    Come on he still broke the law, deliberately, the recall laws specifically pens next.
    In your opinion because you are anti Tory and want a by election no matter the expense.

    He was not jailed and can still represent his constituents perfectly well.
    Those who voted for the recall clearly differ.
    Almost all LDs or Labour voters
    Like to prove that assumption?
    10 000 people signed it, 12 000 people voted LD in Brecon and Radnor at the 2017 general election
    So conservative voters don’t give a shit about their MP fiddling their expenses for personal gain, well that’s not really surprising.
    Conservative voters know him as a well respected former local vet and hard working MP who made a mistake and has taken his punishment
    'Mistake' my arse. Plenty have lost their jobs for less than this.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    HYUFD said:

    Just read the article.

    Guardian had a recording from a neighbour of Carrie screaming at Boris after he spilt red wine on the sofa after he told her to get off his laptop.

    Police were called but obviously no action was taken and neither party made a complaint. Just a row that happens to couples across the country and neighbour probably a Remainer
    Bloody awful neighbour whatever (s)he is - imagine actually recording your neighbours?
    Yes, it does sound a bit odd! I wonder what else they have been recording?!
    Well we can wait for the next installment, or not
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    edited June 2019
    HYUFD said:


    Conservative voters know him as a well respected former local vet and hard working MP who made a mistake and has taken his punishment

    And they can prove they think that by voting him back in.

    You are arguing against the whole point of a recall, which let us not forget requires some serious wrongdoing to be triggered. I hope you defended Onasanya this hard. Yes the crime was more serious in its punishment, but she served her time and was able to do her job after making a mistake, how dare her constituents not wait for a GE to judge her.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:
    All a row over Boris spilling wine on the sofa as I already pointed out before, no action taken, no complaint by either party, neighbour likely a Remainer
    Do your mind reading abilities know no bounds ?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    To be fair to Davies he gained the seat from the LDs in 2015 and increased the Tories voteshare in the seat in 2017 to the highest it has ever been since the 1960s so why should he not stand again? He has faced the punishment of the courts for the expenses row and was a well known local auctioneer, only a minority of voters signed the petition (likely almost all Liberals anyway) so why should he not stand again and let the voters decide his fate?

    Well the voters will decide then, other at the by election or at the next general election but it could have saved the expense of the former and waited until the latter
    Well it could be 2022 but ok they can live with an Mp who is still claiming it was a mistake. It was not it was a deliberate attempt to avoid paying for the mistake out of his own pocket.
    Which was already dealt with by the courts without a custodial sentence
    Come on he still broke the law, deliberately, the recall laws specifically pens next.
    In your opinion because you are anti Tory and want a by election no matter the expense.

    He was not jailed and can still represent his constituents perfectly well.
    Those who voted for the recall clearly differ.
    Almost all LDs or Labour voters
    Like to prove that assumption?
    10 000 people signed it, 12 000 people voted LD in Brecon and Radnor at the 2017 general election
    So conservative voters don’t give a shit about their MP fiddling their expenses for personal gain, well that’s not really surprising.
    Conservative voters know him as a well respected former local vet and hard working MP who made a mistake and has taken his punishment
    'Mistake' my arse. Plenty have lost their jobs for less than this.
    I did try to make this point from the beginning, it was not a mistake it was deliberate fraud for personal financial gain.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    To be fair to Davies he gained the seat from the LDs in 2015 and increased the Tories voteshare in the seat in 2017 to the highest it has ever been since the 1960s so why should he not stand again? He has faced the punishment of the courts for the expenses row and was a well known local auctioneer, only a minority of voters signed the petition (likely almost all Liberals anyway) so why should he not stand again and let the voters decide his fate?

    Well the voters will decide then, other at the by election or at the next general election but it could have saved the expense of the former and waited until the latter
    Well it could be 2022 but ok they can live with an Mp who is still claiming it was a mistake. It was not it was a deliberate attempt to avoid paying for the mistake out of his own pocket.
    Which was



    eady dealt with by the courts without a custodial sentence
    Come on he still broke the law, deliberately, the recall laws specifically pens next.
    In your opinion because you are anti Tory and want a by election no matter the expense.

    He was not jailed and can still represent his constituents perfectly well.
    Those who voted for the recall clearly differ.</

    Like to prove that assumption?</p>
    10 000 people signed it, 12 000 people voted LD in Brecon and Radnor at the 2017 general election
    So conservative voters don’t give a shit about their MP fiddling their expenses for personal gain, well that’s not really surprising.
    Conservative voters know him as a well respected former local vet and hard working MP who made a mistake and has taken his punishment
    'Mistake' my arse. Plenty have lost their jobs for less than this.
    I did try to make this point from the beginning, it was not a mistake it was deliberate fraud for personal financial gain.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,780
    Someone on BF believes the neighbour story will scupper Boris.

    Notable that the action is all on next Tory leader, and nothing on next PM. That very strongly suggests to me that this is actually someone trying to make the market move. (Boris is hardly likely to be next PM without him being Tory leader)

    So. Dirty tricks. I Goven't got a clue who might be doing such things.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    GIN1138 said:
    Sound more like Corbyn.
This discussion has been closed.