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  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 13,619

    TOPPING said:

    IDS talking absolute bollocks on PM.

    He wants to negotiate a FTA while in some kind of implementation period on WTO terms.

    So why on earth didn't he support the WA which would have allowed us to do that but without the WTO bit (using the discredited Article 24).

    His stupidity defies belief. Worse, he thinks we are as stupid as he is.

    Which is why of course we will get the WA.

    He is a rare beast. A stupid person who is actually even more stupid than the rest of us think he is.
    Somebody told me an anecdote about him in ministerial office, they told me IDS was aloof and not trusted by the civil service. I think IDS is a complete prat and his obsession with Europe is only surpassed by his other obsession with benefits.

    It would not have surprised me if IDS, when he was at the DWP would have got signs outside of jobcentres stating "Arbeit macht frei" meaning "work sets you free" !
    A speculation too far imo. And I doubt there are any on here who needed the translation.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 40,691
    TOPPING said:

    IDS talking absolute bollocks on PM.

    He wants to negotiate a FTA while in some kind of implementation period on WTO terms.

    So why on earth didn't he support the WA which would have allowed us to do that but without the WTO bit (using the discredited Article 24).

    His stupidity defies belief. Worse, he thinks we are as stupid as he is.

    Which is why of course we will get the WA.

    Because the discredited WA contained the awful backstop and plenty of people oppose the backstop in principle. Surely you're not genuinely so stupid as to not understand that by now?
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,390
    Conservatives who voted YES

    Bebb
    Clarke
    Djanogly
    Greening
    Grieve
    Gyimah
    Lee
    Letwin
    Sandbach
    Spelman

    Labour who voted No

    Barrow
    Campbell
    Fitzpatrick
    Flint
    obviously Hepburn
    Hoey
    Mann
    Stringer


    Austin and Lewis for No


    No vote recorded

    Baron, Bradley, Collins, Harrington, Knight, Mercer, Offord, Perry, Bob Stewart, Vazey, Watling

    Field, Hopking, O'Marah, Angela Smith

    Efford, Elliott, Farrely, Gaffney, Hussain, Keeley, Lucas, Marsden, Onn, Smeeth, Snell, Stevens, Derek Twigg
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 3,897

    OllyT said:


    That is overthinking it. Is Corbyn going to say he would rather have a Tory Brexit than an election?

    He's spent the last two years working pretty hard towards it.
    He's spent 2 years saying "I want another election, I want another election". If the PM calls for an election the idea he could say "actually no thanks" is ludicrous.
    It is not ludicrous. The Tories are heading for a car crash either way in October why would the opposition want to let them off the hook. Corbyn maybe desperate to get into the driving seat but he doesn't want to be sitting there on October 31st.
    Corbyn can't say "I don't want an election because I want the UK to disastrously crash under the Tories first". He may think it but he can't say or do it.
    But he can easily come up with a plausible reason for not having an election in the midst of the country hurtling towards our Brexit deadline.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 28,808

    brendan16 said:

    Chris said:

    In the event that No Deal happens, and goes badly wrong, how many deaths definitely attributable to disruption of medical supplies could the prime minister survive?

    You should watch the current BBC series Years and Years with Emma Thompson playing a future Populist PM who seems to be based on Katie Hopkins. It’s a future post Brexit world where the EU seems to have collapsed and the poor and homeless have been ‘disappeared’ to ‘secure locations’.

    You would positively hyperventilate!

    It's a great series - scary though!
    Such a society sounds a bit too good to be true.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 32,684
    Work has been getting in the way of politics for the last couple of days but my reading on here suggests so far as launches are concerned:

    Rory: wow, super wow, Obama moments.
    Boris: meh, no mistakes but meh.
    Sajid: wow, really inspirational.

    I think that we are seeing the mechanics here that make it so difficult for the front runner to win. The need to be careful, not to expose any (additional) flank or say anything controversial inhibits the front runner whilst those behind are dis-inhibited and more interesting.

    Its particularly unfortunate in Boris' case because his strengths are his charisma, his humour and his ability to engage with his audience. Take that away and he just looks bumbling. I think he is being poorly advised and needs to be let off the leash a bit. But what do I know?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 13,619
    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:


    That is overthinking it. Is Corbyn going to say he would rather have a Tory Brexit than an election?

    He's spent the last two years working pretty hard towards it.
    He's spent 2 years saying "I want another election, I want another election". If the PM calls for an election the idea he could say "actually no thanks" is ludicrous.
    It is not ludicrous. The Tories are heading for a car crash either way in October why would the opposition want to let them off the hook. Corbyn maybe desperate to get into the driving seat but he doesn't want to be sitting there on October 31st.
    Corbyn can't say "I don't want an election because I want the UK to disastrously crash under the Tories first". He may think it but he can't say or do it.
    But he can easily come up with a plausible reason for not having an election in the midst of the country hurtling towards our Brexit deadline.
    No - Corbyn has to take an election if offered, no matter when.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469

    LDs would be well advised to tell them where to go. Soubry has no place in the the Liberal Democrat Party - the tensions between her political compass and the LDs would just be too great.
    However, this shows that they believe a General Election is in the offing. The only [ little ] chance of survival is in the LD. Chuka, Heidi and Wollastan have reasonable chances.
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    DavidL said:

    Work has been getting in the way of politics for the last couple of days but my reading on here suggests so far as launches are concerned:

    Rory: wow, super wow, Obama moments.
    Boris: meh, no mistakes but meh.
    Sajid: wow, really inspirational.

    I think that we are seeing the mechanics here that make it so difficult for the front runner to win. The need to be careful, not to expose any (additional) flank or say anything controversial inhibits the front runner whilst those behind are dis-inhibited and more interesting.

    Its particularly unfortunate in Boris' case because his strengths are his charisma, his humour and his ability to engage with his audience. Take that away and he just looks bumbling. I think he is being poorly advised and needs to be let off the leash a bit. But what do I know?

    Comparing Rory Stewart to Obama -really?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 28,082

    LDs would be well advised to tell them where to go. Soubry has no place in the the Liberal Democrat Party - the tensions between her political compass and the LDs would just be too great.
    Mike Gapes would be my final pick if i were LDs
    No way he would join and no way we would want him.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 32,684

    TOPPING said:

    IDS talking absolute bollocks on PM.

    He wants to negotiate a FTA while in some kind of implementation period on WTO terms.

    So why on earth didn't he support the WA which would have allowed us to do that but without the WTO bit (using the discredited Article 24).

    His stupidity defies belief. Worse, he thinks we are as stupid as he is.

    Which is why of course we will get the WA.

    He is a rare beast. A stupid person who is actually even more stupid than the rest of us think he is.
    Somebody told me an anecdote about him in ministerial office, they told me IDS was aloof and not trusted by the civil service. I think IDS is a complete prat and his obsession with Europe is only surpassed by his other obsession with benefits.

    It would not have surprised me if IDS, when he was at the DWP would have got signs outside of jobcentres stating "Arbeit macht frei" meaning "work sets you free" !
    A speculation too far imo. And I doubt there are any on here who needed the translation.
    Yep, and I have no time for the thick plonker whatsoever. We just don't need this vituperation.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 32,684
    kjohnw said:

    DavidL said:

    Work has been getting in the way of politics for the last couple of days but my reading on here suggests so far as launches are concerned:

    Rory: wow, super wow, Obama moments.
    Boris: meh, no mistakes but meh.
    Sajid: wow, really inspirational.

    I think that we are seeing the mechanics here that make it so difficult for the front runner to win. The need to be careful, not to expose any (additional) flank or say anything controversial inhibits the front runner whilst those behind are dis-inhibited and more interesting.

    Its particularly unfortunate in Boris' case because his strengths are his charisma, his humour and his ability to engage with his audience. Take that away and he just looks bumbling. I think he is being poorly advised and needs to be let off the leash a bit. But what do I know?

    Comparing Rory Stewart to Obama -really?
    As I say I haven't heard or seen his pitch. But people on here were seriously enthusiastic. Especially non Tories, unfortunately for him.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 28,082
    edited June 2019
    How pitiful is it that the clear front-runner to be our next PM has to hide from the media and any scrutiny and has carefully to be shepherded to make sure he can avoid being asked any sort of difficult question?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 15,024
    IanB2 said:

    LDs would be well advised to tell them where to go. Soubry has no place in the the Liberal Democrat Party - the tensions between her political compass and the LDs would just be too great.
    Mike Gapes would be my final pick if i were LDs
    No way he would join and no way we would want him.
    Well its getting awfully lonely in CUK if Soubry wants out.

    Coffey, Gapes and that other bloke from Nottingham
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,620

    LDs would be well advised to tell them where to go. Soubry has no place in the the Liberal Democrat Party - the tensions between her political compass and the LDs would just be too great.
    However, this shows that they believe a General Election is in the offing. The only [ little ] chance of survival is in the LD. Chuka, Heidi and Wollastan have reasonable chances.
    But Chuka, Heidi and Sarah are no longer part of ChUK - they are back to being The Independent Group or The Alternative or whatever their title is this week
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469

    IanB2 said:

    LDs would be well advised to tell them where to go. Soubry has no place in the the Liberal Democrat Party - the tensions between her political compass and the LDs would just be too great.
    Mike Gapes would be my final pick if i were LDs
    No way he would join and no way we would want him.
    Well its getting awfully lonely in CUK if Soubry wants out.

    Coffey, Gapes and that other bloke from Nottingham
    Even last week Soubry was saying Chuka made a mistake !
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    IanB2 said:

    How pitiful is it that the clear front-runner to be our next PM has to hide from the media and any scrutiny and has carefully to be shepherded to make sure he can avoid being asked any sort of difficult question?

    He was getting questioned at his launch today was he not?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 32,684

    LDs would be well advised to tell them where to go. Soubry has no place in the the Liberal Democrat Party - the tensions between her political compass and the LDs would just be too great.
    However, this shows that they believe a General Election is in the offing. The only [ little ] chance of survival is in the LD. Chuka, Heidi and Wollastan have reasonable chances.
    But Chuka, Heidi and Sarah are no longer part of ChUK - they are back to being The Independent Group or The Alternative or whatever their title is this week
    What I think the vote tonight shows is that there are more people in Parliament who have more than 64,000 reasons a year not to have an election than is generally appreciated. It means the odds are not tipped quite as sharply against the next PM as it would appear.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469

    LDs would be well advised to tell them where to go. Soubry has no place in the the Liberal Democrat Party - the tensions between her political compass and the LDs would just be too great.
    However, this shows that they believe a General Election is in the offing. The only [ little ] chance of survival is in the LD. Chuka, Heidi and Wollastan have reasonable chances.
    But Chuka, Heidi and Sarah are no longer part of ChUK - they are back to being The Independent Group or The Alternative or whatever their title is this week
    We know that. It is just a staging post.
  • MrsBMrsB Posts: 574
    IanB2 said:

    LDs would be well advised to tell them where to go. Soubry has no place in the the Liberal Democrat Party - the tensions between her political compass and the LDs would just be too great.
    Mike Gapes would be my final pick if i were LDs
    No way he would join and no way we would want him.
    You would put Chris Leslie ahead of Mike Gapes????
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    kjohnw said:

    IanB2 said:

    How pitiful is it that the clear front-runner to be our next PM has to hide from the media and any scrutiny and has carefully to be shepherded to make sure he can avoid being asked any sort of difficult question?

    He was getting questioned at his launch today was he not?
    Six-question limit and his MP supporters booed one of the journalists.
  • StreeterStreeter Posts: 684

    kjohnw said:

    IanB2 said:

    How pitiful is it that the clear front-runner to be our next PM has to hide from the media and any scrutiny and has carefully to be shepherded to make sure he can avoid being asked any sort of difficult question?

    He was getting questioned at his launch today was he not?
    Six-question limit and his MP supporters booed one of the journalists.
    And he failed to answer the questions.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 15,024

    Conservatives who voted YES

    Bebb
    Clarke
    Djanogly
    Greening
    Grieve
    Gyimah
    Lee
    Letwin
    Sandbach
    Spelman

    Labour who voted No

    Barrow
    Campbell
    Fitzpatrick
    Flint
    obviously Hepburn
    Hoey
    Mann
    Stringer


    Austin and Lewis for No


    No vote recorded

    Baron, Bradley, Collins, Harrington, Knight, Mercer, Offord, Perry, Bob Stewart, Vazey, Watling

    Field, Hopking, O'Marah, Angela Smith

    Efford, Elliott, Farrely, Gaffney, Hussain, Keeley, Lucas, Marsden, Onn, Smeeth, Snell, Stevens, Derek Twigg

    Funny Tinge didnt vote!!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 29,837
    DavidL said:

    Work has been getting in the way of politics for the last couple of days but my reading on here suggests so far as launches are concerned:

    Rory: wow, super wow, Obama moments.
    Boris: meh, no mistakes but meh.
    Sajid: wow, really inspirational.

    I think that we are seeing the mechanics here that make it so difficult for the front runner to win. The need to be careful, not to expose any (additional) flank or say anything controversial inhibits the front runner whilst those behind are dis-inhibited and more interesting.

    Its particularly unfortunate in Boris' case because his strengths are his charisma, his humour and his ability to engage with his audience. Take that away and he just looks bumbling. I think he is being poorly advised and needs to be let off the leash a bit. But what do I know?

    Hmmm, what I heard of Rory was boring twaddle from a privileged twerp who has no clue about the real world. Just your average overrated toffy Tory.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 15,024
    MrsB said:

    IanB2 said:

    LDs would be well advised to tell them where to go. Soubry has no place in the the Liberal Democrat Party - the tensions between her political compass and the LDs would just be too great.
    Mike Gapes would be my final pick if i were LDs
    No way he would join and no way we would want him.
    You would put Chris Leslie ahead of Mike Gapes????
    Neither offer anything to LDs IMO

    You could argue a case for Allen and Chukka at a push Berger and Wollaston but the rest apply the barge pole
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 6,283
    kjohnw said:

    IanB2 said:

    How pitiful is it that the clear front-runner to be our next PM has to hide from the media and any scrutiny and has carefully to be shepherded to make sure he can avoid being asked any sort of difficult question?

    He was getting questioned at his launch today was he not?
    He allowed 6 questions from selected journalists and to several of them he simply failed to give any answer whatsoever. This man is not fit to be PM
  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 1,255
    This is interesting to me.. not because I think a GE *will* follow this, but I thought once we were beyond the Euros, the Brexit/LD surge would start to fall back in favour of Con/Lab - but it looks like VI is moving towards that result.

    Maybe we still need to get past the Tory leadership, or even Brexit? In which case, a pre-Brexit GE would be, um, entertaining.

  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Looking at the Daily Mail on line you could be mistaken for thinking Boris Johnson was already PM! It does not matter how much the Brexit media try to sell us Boris - He will in my mind remain a complete arsehole who does not have the skills to be PM. He bumbles along trying to be amusing with his usual stock of worn phrases and clichés. The Brexit media will get their man and then when he is as bad as I believe he will be they will disown him whilst we all bare the consequences and cost of the clown.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 32,684
    This is another irritating and frustrating example of how inept May and Hammond's administration has been to prepare for the possibility of a no deal Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48611754

    Less that 10% of firms that need transitional arrangements have actually applied. May's refusal to see any way forward but her own deal negotiated whilst various Brexit Secretaries were not even in the room comes seriously close to criminal negligence and Hammond's refusal to address the possibility of no deal was a dereliction of duty. Its really unforgivable.

    But it makes the position of those who want to leave with no deal on 31st October come hell or high water little short of ridiculous. Yes Boris, that would be you (amongst others).
  • PloppikinsPloppikins Posts: 124

    kjohnw said:

    IanB2 said:

    How pitiful is it that the clear front-runner to be our next PM has to hide from the media and any scrutiny and has carefully to be shepherded to make sure he can avoid being asked any sort of difficult question?

    He was getting questioned at his launch today was he not?
    He allowed 6 questions from selected journalists and to several of them he simply failed to give any answer whatsoever. This man is not fit to be PM
    and Uncle Vince is?
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 6,283
    DavidL said:

    kjohnw said:

    DavidL said:

    Work has been getting in the way of politics for the last couple of days but my reading on here suggests so far as launches are concerned:

    Rory: wow, super wow, Obama moments.
    Boris: meh, no mistakes but meh.
    Sajid: wow, really inspirational.

    I think that we are seeing the mechanics here that make it so difficult for the front runner to win. The need to be careful, not to expose any (additional) flank or say anything controversial inhibits the front runner whilst those behind are dis-inhibited and more interesting.

    Its particularly unfortunate in Boris' case because his strengths are his charisma, his humour and his ability to engage with his audience. Take that away and he just looks bumbling. I think he is being poorly advised and needs to be let off the leash a bit. But what do I know?

    Comparing Rory Stewart to Obama -really?
    As I say I haven't heard or seen his pitch. But people on here were seriously enthusiastic. Especially non Tories, unfortunately for him.
    Rory is the only grown up in this race and the Tories will reject him at their peril
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,265
    DavidL said:

    This is another irritating and frustrating example of how inept May and Hammond's administration has been to prepare for the possibility of a no deal Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48611754

    Less that 10% of firms that need transitional arrangements have actually applied. May's refusal to see any way forward but her own deal negotiated whilst various Brexit Secretaries were not even in the room comes seriously close to criminal negligence and Hammond's refusal to address the possibility of no deal was a dereliction of duty. Its really unforgivable.

    But it makes the position of those who want to leave with no deal on 31st October come hell or high water little short of ridiculous. Yes Boris, that would be you (amongst others).

    Your fellow Leavers downthread believe that Britain should leave the EU with no deal on 31 October whether Britain is ready or not, as a salutary lesson if the public were to suffer.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469

    kjohnw said:

    IanB2 said:

    How pitiful is it that the clear front-runner to be our next PM has to hide from the media and any scrutiny and has carefully to be shepherded to make sure he can avoid being asked any sort of difficult question?

    He was getting questioned at his launch today was he not?
    He allowed 6 questions from selected journalists and to several of them he simply failed to give any answer whatsoever. This man is not fit to be PM
    and Uncle Vince is?
    Uncle Vince was never a potential PM.
  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 1,255

    MrsB said:

    IanB2 said:

    LDs would be well advised to tell them where to go. Soubry has no place in the the Liberal Democrat Party - the tensions between her political compass and the LDs would just be too great.
    Mike Gapes would be my final pick if i were LDs
    No way he would join and no way we would want him.
    You would put Chris Leslie ahead of Mike Gapes????
    Neither offer anything to LDs IMO

    You could argue a case for Allen and Chukka at a push Berger and Wollaston but the rest apply the barge pole
    I'd take them all for now, on a no promises basis. The numbers would look good in parliament and ending CHUK would lead to fewer competitors on most ballot papers. But whether you want all of them standing next time.. not so sure.
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 946
    edited June 2019
    Rory's pitch is here (start about 18 minutes in)...

  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    DavidL said:

    Work has been getting in the way of politics for the last couple of days but my reading on here suggests so far as launches are concerned:

    Rory: wow, super wow, Obama moments.
    Boris: meh, no mistakes but meh.
    Sajid: wow, really inspirational.

    I think that we are seeing the mechanics here that make it so difficult for the front runner to win. The need to be careful, not to expose any (additional) flank or say anything controversial inhibits the front runner whilst those behind are dis-inhibited and more interesting.

    Its particularly unfortunate in Boris' case because his strengths are his charisma, his humour and his ability to engage with his audience. Take that away and he just looks bumbling. I think he is being poorly advised and needs to be let off the leash a bit. But what do I know?

    But Boris has that tantalising poll to dangle in front of them.

    "With me, unlike anyone else, you get a whopping majority, just look into my eyes...."

    I predict enough MPs will succumb, Boris will make it to the final 2. Then he wins.

    He just needs to avoid any more gaffes.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 32,684

    DavidL said:

    This is another irritating and frustrating example of how inept May and Hammond's administration has been to prepare for the possibility of a no deal Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48611754

    Less that 10% of firms that need transitional arrangements have actually applied. May's refusal to see any way forward but her own deal negotiated whilst various Brexit Secretaries were not even in the room comes seriously close to criminal negligence and Hammond's refusal to address the possibility of no deal was a dereliction of duty. Its really unforgivable.

    But it makes the position of those who want to leave with no deal on 31st October come hell or high water little short of ridiculous. Yes Boris, that would be you (amongst others).

    Your fellow Leavers downthread believe that Britain should leave the EU with no deal on 31 October whether Britain is ready or not, as a salutary lesson if the public were to suffer.
    To me that seems irrational. I agree with Gove on that. But its not hard to understand their total frustration. How much time does our government want to waste?
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    MrsB said:

    IanB2 said:

    LDs would be well advised to tell them where to go. Soubry has no place in the the Liberal Democrat Party - the tensions between her political compass and the LDs would just be too great.
    Mike Gapes would be my final pick if i were LDs
    No way he would join and no way we would want him.
    You would put Chris Leslie ahead of Mike Gapes????
    Neither offer anything to LDs IMO

    You could argue a case for Allen and Chukka at a push Berger and Wollaston but the rest apply the barge pole
    I'd take them all for now, on a no promises basis. The numbers would look good in parliament and ending CHUK would lead to fewer competitors on most ballot papers. But whether you want all of them standing next time.. not so sure.
    I doubt Gapes would stand again! But I agree with you that strength in numbers is critical. The LD would be foolish not to accept a boost to their numbers. It is not like any of the MPs has been tarred with anything negative. They all withstand scrutiny IMO and I cannot see any downside apart from the usual snipping from wannabe candidates who feel threatened.
  • PloppikinsPloppikins Posts: 124

    kjohnw said:

    IanB2 said:

    How pitiful is it that the clear front-runner to be our next PM has to hide from the media and any scrutiny and has carefully to be shepherded to make sure he can avoid being asked any sort of difficult question?

    He was getting questioned at his launch today was he not?
    He allowed 6 questions from selected journalists and to several of them he simply failed to give any answer whatsoever. This man is not fit to be PM
    and Uncle Vince is?
    Uncle Vince was never a potential PM.
    He would be in the running if there was an election tomorrow. Given the government is the most unstable for 40 years, it's not a ludicrous as it sounds.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 32,684

    DavidL said:

    kjohnw said:

    DavidL said:

    Work has been getting in the way of politics for the last couple of days but my reading on here suggests so far as launches are concerned:

    Rory: wow, super wow, Obama moments.
    Boris: meh, no mistakes but meh.
    Sajid: wow, really inspirational.

    I think that we are seeing the mechanics here that make it so difficult for the front runner to win. The need to be careful, not to expose any (additional) flank or say anything controversial inhibits the front runner whilst those behind are dis-inhibited and more interesting.

    Its particularly unfortunate in Boris' case because his strengths are his charisma, his humour and his ability to engage with his audience. Take that away and he just looks bumbling. I think he is being poorly advised and needs to be let off the leash a bit. But what do I know?

    Comparing Rory Stewart to Obama -really?
    As I say I haven't heard or seen his pitch. But people on here were seriously enthusiastic. Especially non Tories, unfortunately for him.
    Rory is the only grown up in this race and the Tories will reject him at their peril
    I'm a fan but reject him they will. Probably tomorrow.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    DavidL said:

    This is another irritating and frustrating example of how inept May and Hammond's administration has been to prepare for the possibility of a no deal Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48611754

    Less that 10% of firms that need transitional arrangements have actually applied. May's refusal to see any way forward but her own deal negotiated whilst various Brexit Secretaries were not even in the room comes seriously close to criminal negligence and Hammond's refusal to address the possibility of no deal was a dereliction of duty. Its really unforgivable.

    But it makes the position of those who want to leave with no deal on 31st October come hell or high water little short of ridiculous. Yes Boris, that would be you (amongst others).

    Your fellow Leavers downthread believe that Britain should leave the EU with no deal on 31 October whether Britain is ready or not, as a salutary lesson if the public were to suffer.
    To be fair there are some PB Remainers - e.g. TSE, and perhaps yourself - who feel exactly the same?

    Both seem equally bonkers to me.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,265
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    This is another irritating and frustrating example of how inept May and Hammond's administration has been to prepare for the possibility of a no deal Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48611754

    Less that 10% of firms that need transitional arrangements have actually applied. May's refusal to see any way forward but her own deal negotiated whilst various Brexit Secretaries were not even in the room comes seriously close to criminal negligence and Hammond's refusal to address the possibility of no deal was a dereliction of duty. Its really unforgivable.

    But it makes the position of those who want to leave with no deal on 31st October come hell or high water little short of ridiculous. Yes Boris, that would be you (amongst others).

    Your fellow Leavers downthread believe that Britain should leave the EU with no deal on 31 October whether Britain is ready or not, as a salutary lesson if the public were to suffer.
    To me that seems irrational. I agree with Gove on that. But its not hard to understand their total frustration. How much time does our government want to waste?
    It is irrational. But that is the level of mania that is now routine among Leavers.

    They never once stop to consider seriously why they have completely failed to build a consensus behind their mandate. One day they will, but that day remains a long way off.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469

    MrsB said:

    IanB2 said:

    LDs would be well advised to tell them where to go. Soubry has no place in the the Liberal Democrat Party - the tensions between her political compass and the LDs would just be too great.
    Mike Gapes would be my final pick if i were LDs
    No way he would join and no way we would want him.
    You would put Chris Leslie ahead of Mike Gapes????
    Neither offer anything to LDs IMO

    You could argue a case for Allen and Chukka at a push Berger and Wollaston but the rest apply the barge pole
    Chris Leslie could be. After all, he is more Blairite than even Blair. The point about Allen, Umunna and Wollaston is that they have identifiable seats where with LD organization and their own name they could just possibly win. Heidi Allen definitely could.

    Leslie, Gapes, Berger represent extremely safe Labour seats. Streatham is a London "liberal" type seat.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,265
    Byronic said:

    DavidL said:

    This is another irritating and frustrating example of how inept May and Hammond's administration has been to prepare for the possibility of a no deal Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48611754

    Less that 10% of firms that need transitional arrangements have actually applied. May's refusal to see any way forward but her own deal negotiated whilst various Brexit Secretaries were not even in the room comes seriously close to criminal negligence and Hammond's refusal to address the possibility of no deal was a dereliction of duty. Its really unforgivable.

    But it makes the position of those who want to leave with no deal on 31st October come hell or high water little short of ridiculous. Yes Boris, that would be you (amongst others).

    Your fellow Leavers downthread believe that Britain should leave the EU with no deal on 31 October whether Britain is ready or not, as a salutary lesson if the public were to suffer.
    To be fair there are some PB Remainers - e.g. TSE, and perhaps yourself - who feel exactly the same?

    Both seem equally bonkers to me.
    My view is that all outcomes are disastrous from here. It’s just a choice of different disasters.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 32,684
    Gadfly said:

    Rory's pitch is here (start about 18 minutes in)...

    Thanks I will look at that later but time to drive home.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 24,348
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kjohnw said:

    DavidL said:

    Work has been getting in the way of politics for the last couple of days but my reading on here suggests so far as launches are concerned:

    Rory: wow, super wow, Obama moments.
    Boris: meh, no mistakes but meh.
    Sajid: wow, really inspirational.

    I think that we are seeing the mechanics here that make it so difficult for the front runner to win. The need to be careful, not to expose any (additional) flank or say anything controversial inhibits the front runner whilst those behind are dis-inhibited and more interesting.

    Its particularly unfortunate in Boris' case because his strengths are his charisma, his humour and his ability to engage with his audience. Take that away and he just looks bumbling. I think he is being poorly advised and needs to be let off the leash a bit. But what do I know?

    Comparing Rory Stewart to Obama -really?
    As I say I haven't heard or seen his pitch. But people on here were seriously enthusiastic. Especially non Tories, unfortunately for him.
    Rory is the only grown up in this race and the Tories will reject him at their peril
    I'm a fan but reject him they will. Probably tomorrow.
    Agree. But there might well be a longer game afoot.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Byronic said:

    DavidL said:

    This is another irritating and frustrating example of how inept May and Hammond's administration has been to prepare for the possibility of a no deal Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48611754

    Less that 10% of firms that need transitional arrangements have actually applied. May's refusal to see any way forward but her own deal negotiated whilst various Brexit Secretaries were not even in the room comes seriously close to criminal negligence and Hammond's refusal to address the possibility of no deal was a dereliction of duty. Its really unforgivable.

    But it makes the position of those who want to leave with no deal on 31st October come hell or high water little short of ridiculous. Yes Boris, that would be you (amongst others).

    Your fellow Leavers downthread believe that Britain should leave the EU with no deal on 31 October whether Britain is ready or not, as a salutary lesson if the public were to suffer.
    To be fair there are some PB Remainers - e.g. TSE, and perhaps yourself - who feel exactly the same?

    Both seem equally bonkers to me.
    My view is that all outcomes are disastrous from here. It’s just a choice of different disasters.
    Yes, very possibly. But at least we can enjoy the blissful summer.

    Oh.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 28,082
    MrsB said:

    IanB2 said:

    LDs would be well advised to tell them where to go. Soubry has no place in the the Liberal Democrat Party - the tensions between her political compass and the LDs would just be too great.
    Mike Gapes would be my final pick if i were LDs
    No way he would join and no way we would want him.
    You would put Chris Leslie ahead of Mike Gapes????
    Yes
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469

    Byronic said:

    DavidL said:

    This is another irritating and frustrating example of how inept May and Hammond's administration has been to prepare for the possibility of a no deal Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48611754

    Less that 10% of firms that need transitional arrangements have actually applied. May's refusal to see any way forward but her own deal negotiated whilst various Brexit Secretaries were not even in the room comes seriously close to criminal negligence and Hammond's refusal to address the possibility of no deal was a dereliction of duty. Its really unforgivable.

    But it makes the position of those who want to leave with no deal on 31st October come hell or high water little short of ridiculous. Yes Boris, that would be you (amongst others).

    Your fellow Leavers downthread believe that Britain should leave the EU with no deal on 31 October whether Britain is ready or not, as a salutary lesson if the public were to suffer.
    To be fair there are some PB Remainers - e.g. TSE, and perhaps yourself - who feel exactly the same?

    Both seem equally bonkers to me.
    My view is that all outcomes are disastrous from here. It’s just a choice of different disasters.
    Thelma & Louise last scene coming up !
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 15,024

    MrsB said:

    IanB2 said:

    LDs would be well advised to tell them where to go. Soubry has no place in the the Liberal Democrat Party - the tensions between her political compass and the LDs would just be too great.
    Mike Gapes would be my final pick if i were LDs
    No way he would join and no way we would want him.
    You would put Chris Leslie ahead of Mike Gapes????
    Neither offer anything to LDs IMO

    You could argue a case for Allen and Chukka at a push Berger and Wollaston but the rest apply the barge pole
    I'd take them all for now, on a no promises basis. The numbers would look good in parliament and ending CHUK would lead to fewer competitors on most ballot papers. But whether you want all of them standing next time.. not so sure.
    I doubt Gapes would stand again! But I agree with you that strength in numbers is critical. The LD would be foolish not to accept a boost to their numbers. It is not like any of the MPs has been tarred with anything negative. They all withstand scrutiny IMO and I cannot see any downside apart from the usual snipping from wannabe candidates who feel threatened.
    Austin Field and Woodcock also available if your bar is that low
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 12,365

    Byronic said:

    DavidL said:

    This is another irritating and frustrating example of how inept May and Hammond's administration has been to prepare for the possibility of a no deal Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48611754

    Less that 10% of firms that need transitional arrangements have actually applied. May's refusal to see any way forward but her own deal negotiated whilst various Brexit Secretaries were not even in the room comes seriously close to criminal negligence and Hammond's refusal to address the possibility of no deal was a dereliction of duty. Its really unforgivable.

    But it makes the position of those who want to leave with no deal on 31st October come hell or high water little short of ridiculous. Yes Boris, that would be you (amongst others).

    Your fellow Leavers downthread believe that Britain should leave the EU with no deal on 31 October whether Britain is ready or not, as a salutary lesson if the public were to suffer.
    To be fair there are some PB Remainers - e.g. TSE, and perhaps yourself - who feel exactly the same?

    Both seem equally bonkers to me.
    My view is that all outcomes are disastrous from here. It’s just a choice of different disasters.
    I rather think that's your hope. Which is a shame. But hey ho.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 29,837

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kjohnw said:

    DavidL said:

    Work has been getting in the way of politics for the last couple of days but my reading on here suggests so far as launches are concerned:

    Rory: wow, super wow, Obama moments.
    Boris: meh, no mistakes but meh.
    Sajid: wow, really inspirational.

    I think that we are seeing the mechanics here that make it so difficult for the front runner to win. The need to be careful, not to expose any (additional) flank or say anything controversial inhibits the front runner whilst those behind are dis-inhibited and more interesting.

    Its particularly unfortunate in Boris' case because his strengths are his charisma, his humour and his ability to engage with his audience. Take that away and he just looks bumbling. I think he is being poorly advised and needs to be let off the leash a bit. But what do I know?

    Comparing Rory Stewart to Obama -really?
    As I say I haven't heard or seen his pitch. But people on here were seriously enthusiastic. Especially non Tories, unfortunately for him.
    Rory is the only grown up in this race and the Tories will reject him at their peril
    I'm a fan but reject him they will. Probably tomorrow.
    Agree. But there might well be a longer game afoot.
    No there is not, it is a donkey derby and the biggest fattest donkey is already assured of victory. He will steamroll the 3 legged ones easily.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 37,058
    Sean_F said:

    brendan16 said:

    Chris said:

    In the event that No Deal happens, and goes badly wrong, how many deaths definitely attributable to disruption of medical supplies could the prime minister survive?

    You should watch the current BBC series Years and Years with Emma Thompson playing a future Populist PM who seems to be based on Katie Hopkins. It’s a future post Brexit world where the EU seems to have collapsed and the poor and homeless have been ‘disappeared’ to ‘secure locations’.

    You would positively hyperventilate!

    It's a great series - scary though!
    Such a society sounds a bit too good to be true.
    It’s a hard call on who’s more repellent: Emma Thompson or Katie Hopkins.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 18,069
    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    DavidL said:

    This is another irritating and frustrating example of how inept May and Hammond's administration has been to prepare for the possibility of a no deal Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48611754

    Less that 10% of firms that need transitional arrangements have actually applied. May's refusal to see any way forward but her own deal negotiated whilst various Brexit Secretaries were not even in the room comes seriously close to criminal negligence and Hammond's refusal to address the possibility of no deal was a dereliction of duty. Its really unforgivable.

    But it makes the position of those who want to leave with no deal on 31st October come hell or high water little short of ridiculous. Yes Boris, that would be you (amongst others).

    Your fellow Leavers downthread believe that Britain should leave the EU with no deal on 31 October whether Britain is ready or not, as a salutary lesson if the public were to suffer.
    To be fair there are some PB Remainers - e.g. TSE, and perhaps yourself - who feel exactly the same?

    Both seem equally bonkers to me.
    My view is that all outcomes are disastrous from here. It’s just a choice of different disasters.
    Yes, very possibly. But at least we can enjoy the blissful summer.

    Oh.
    It is not yet St Swithins day

    Lovely on the Isle of Wight at the weekend, if a bit blowy.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    MrsB said:

    IanB2 said:

    LDs would be well advised to tell them where to go. Soubry has no place in the the Liberal Democrat Party - the tensions between her political compass and the LDs would just be too great.
    Mike Gapes would be my final pick if i were LDs
    No way he would join and no way we would want him.
    You would put Chris Leslie ahead of Mike Gapes????
    Neither offer anything to LDs IMO

    You could argue a case for Allen and Chukka at a push Berger and Wollaston but the rest apply the barge pole
    I'd take them all for now, on a no promises basis. The numbers would look good in parliament and ending CHUK would lead to fewer competitors on most ballot papers. But whether you want all of them standing next time.. not so sure.
    I doubt Gapes would stand again! But I agree with you that strength in numbers is critical. The LD would be foolish not to accept a boost to their numbers. It is not like any of the MPs has been tarred with anything negative. They all withstand scrutiny IMO and I cannot see any downside apart from the usual snipping from wannabe candidates who feel threatened.
    Austin Field and Woodcock also available if your bar is that low
    Why not?! I am not a LD member, although I did vote for them in the locals and European elections. Politically, I am a swing voter but it makes sense to me for the LD to open themselves up to any centrist who wants to caucus with them.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469

    MrsB said:

    IanB2 said:

    LDs would be well advised to tell them where to go. Soubry has no place in the the Liberal Democrat Party - the tensions between her political compass and the LDs would just be too great.
    Mike Gapes would be my final pick if i were LDs
    No way he would join and no way we would want him.
    You would put Chris Leslie ahead of Mike Gapes????
    Neither offer anything to LDs IMO

    You could argue a case for Allen and Chukka at a push Berger and Wollaston but the rest apply the barge pole
    I'd take them all for now, on a no promises basis. The numbers would look good in parliament and ending CHUK would lead to fewer competitors on most ballot papers. But whether you want all of them standing next time.. not so sure.
    All will bring their names. Most will lose anyway. But Soubry could be a problem. She has her own mind and she is a Tory...…...real Tory.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 28,082
    Foxy said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    DavidL said:

    This is another irritating and frustrating example of how inept May and Hammond's administration has been to prepare for the possibility of a no deal Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48611754

    Less that 10% of firms that need transitional arrangements have actually applied. May's refusal to see any way forward but her own deal negotiated whilst various Brexit Secretaries were not even in the room comes seriously close to criminal negligence and Hammond's refusal to address the possibility of no deal was a dereliction of duty. Its really unforgivable.

    But it makes the position of those who want to leave with no deal on 31st October come hell or high water little short of ridiculous. Yes Boris, that would be you (amongst others).

    Your fellow Leavers downthread believe that Britain should leave the EU with no deal on 31 October whether Britain is ready or not, as a salutary lesson if the public were to suffer.
    To be fair there are some PB Remainers - e.g. TSE, and perhaps yourself - who feel exactly the same?

    Both seem equally bonkers to me.
    My view is that all outcomes are disastrous from here. It’s just a choice of different disasters.
    Yes, very possibly. But at least we can enjoy the blissful summer.

    Oh.
    It is not yet St Swithins day

    Lovely on the Isle of Wight at the weekend, if a bit blowy.
    The Island dodged the worst of the rain, at least.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 517
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kjohnw said:

    DavidL said:

    Work has been getting in the way of politics for the last couple of days but my reading on here suggests so far as launches are concerned:

    Rory: wow, super wow, Obama moments.
    Boris: meh, no mistakes but meh.
    Sajid: wow, really inspirational.

    I think that we are seeing the mechanics here that make it so difficult for the front runner to win. The need to be careful, not to expose any (additional) flank or say anything controversial inhibits the front runner whilst those behind are dis-inhibited and more interesting.

    Its particularly unfortunate in Boris' case because his strengths are his charisma, his humour and his ability to engage with his audience. Take that away and he just looks bumbling. I think he is being poorly advised and needs to be let off the leash a bit. But what do I know?

    Comparing Rory Stewart to Obama -really?
    As I say I haven't heard or seen his pitch. But people on here were seriously enthusiastic. Especially non Tories, unfortunately for him.
    Rory is the only grown up in this race and the Tories will reject him at their peril
    I'm a fan but reject him they will. Probably tomorrow.
    Indeed. Hadn't really watched him for any length of time before this launch and I didn't expect to like him based on the little I knew/had seen, but he's impressive. Shame.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 37,058
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kjohnw said:

    DavidL said:

    Work has been getting in the way of politics for the last couple of days but my reading on here suggests so far as launches are concerned:

    Rory: wow, super wow, Obama moments.
    Boris: meh, no mistakes but meh.
    Sajid: wow, really inspirational.

    I think that we are seeing the mechanics here that make it so difficult for the front runner to win. The need to be careful, not to expose any (additional) flank or say anything controversial inhibits the front runner whilst those behind are dis-inhibited and more interesting.

    Its particularly unfortunate in Boris' case because his strengths are his charisma, his humour and his ability to engage with his audience. Take that away and he just looks bumbling. I think he is being poorly advised and needs to be let off the leash a bit. But what do I know?

    Comparing Rory Stewart to Obama -really?
    As I say I haven't heard or seen his pitch. But people on here were seriously enthusiastic. Especially non Tories, unfortunately for him.
    Rory is the only grown up in this race and the Tories will reject him at their peril
    I'm a fan but reject him they will. Probably tomorrow.
    They will because Rory hasn’t been speaking to his own party.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 15,024

    MrsB said:

    IanB2 said:

    LDs would be well advised to tell them where to go. Soubry has no place in the the Liberal Democrat Party - the tensions between her political compass and the LDs would just be too great.
    Mike Gapes would be my final pick if i were LDs
    No way he would join and no way we would want him.
    You would put Chris Leslie ahead of Mike Gapes????
    Neither offer anything to LDs IMO

    You could argue a case for Allen and Chukka at a push Berger and Wollaston but the rest apply the barge pole
    Chris Leslie could be. After all, he is more Blairite than even Blair. The point about Allen, Umunna and Wollaston is that they have identifiable seats where with LD organization and their own name they could just possibly win. Heidi Allen definitely could.

    Leslie, Gapes, Berger represent extremely safe Labour seats. Streatham is a London "liberal" type seat.
    LAB 68.5%
    LD 6.5%
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    O/T

    People think that talking to strangers on public transport will be uncomfortable but that fear isn't backed up by actually doing it according to this report:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-48459940
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kjohnw said:

    DavidL said:

    Work has been getting in the way of politics for the last couple of days but my reading on here suggests so far as launches are concerned:

    Rory: wow, super wow, Obama moments.
    Boris: meh, no mistakes but meh.
    Sajid: wow, really inspirational.

    I think that we are seeing the mechanics here that make it so difficult for the front runner to win. The need to be careful, not to expose any (additional) flank or say anything controversial inhibits the front runner whilst those behind are dis-inhibited and more interesting.

    Its particularly unfortunate in Boris' case because his strengths are his charisma, his humour and his ability to engage with his audience. Take that away and he just looks bumbling. I think he is being poorly advised and needs to be let off the leash a bit. But what do I know?

    Comparing Rory Stewart to Obama -really?
    As I say I haven't heard or seen his pitch. But people on here were seriously enthusiastic. Especially non Tories, unfortunately for him.
    Rory is the only grown up in this race and the Tories will reject him at their peril
    I'm a fan but reject him they will. Probably tomorrow.
    Agree. But there might well be a longer game afoot.
    I don't think there's any long-term plan beyond advocating his position to the best of his abilities.

    What other option does he have besides giving up?
  • Byronic said:

    DavidL said:

    This is another irritating and frustrating example of how inept May and Hammond's administration has been to prepare for the possibility of a no deal Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48611754

    Less that 10% of firms that need transitional arrangements have actually applied. May's refusal to see any way forward but her own deal negotiated whilst various Brexit Secretaries were not even in the room comes seriously close to criminal negligence and Hammond's refusal to address the possibility of no deal was a dereliction of duty. Its really unforgivable.

    But it makes the position of those who want to leave with no deal on 31st October come hell or high water little short of ridiculous. Yes Boris, that would be you (amongst others).

    Your fellow Leavers downthread believe that Britain should leave the EU with no deal on 31 October whether Britain is ready or not, as a salutary lesson if the public were to suffer.
    To be fair there are some PB Remainers - e.g. TSE, and perhaps yourself - who feel exactly the same?

    Both seem equally bonkers to me.
    I want to avoid a No Deal Brexit, quite simply a No Deal Brexit on the 31st of October would result in the deaths of people and that's something that has to be avoided at all costs.

    Just imagine if you had a loved one who died because of No Deal, you'd want to grab a baseball bat and smash the heads in of the nearest leavers, that's not good for the country.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 18,069

    MrsB said:

    IanB2 said:

    LDs would be well advised to tell them where to go. Soubry has no place in the the Liberal Democrat Party - the tensions between her political compass and the LDs would just be too great.
    Mike Gapes would be my final pick if i were LDs
    No way he would join and no way we would want him.
    You would put Chris Leslie ahead of Mike Gapes????
    Neither offer anything to LDs IMO

    You could argue a case for Allen and Chukka at a push Berger and Wollaston but the rest apply the barge pole
    I'd take them all for now, on a no promises basis. The numbers would look good in parliament and ending CHUK would lead to fewer competitors on most ballot papers. But whether you want all of them standing next time.. not so sure.
    I doubt Gapes would stand again! But I agree with you that strength in numbers is critical. The LD would be foolish not to accept a boost to their numbers. It is not like any of the MPs has been tarred with anything negative. They all withstand scrutiny IMO and I cannot see any downside apart from the usual snipping from wannabe candidates who feel threatened.
    Austin Field and Woodcock also available if your bar is that low
    Why not?! I am not a LD member, although I did vote for them in the locals and European elections. Politically, I am a swing voter but it makes sense to me for the LD to open themselves up to any centrist who wants to caucus with them.
    No, not really.

    Anyone wanting to sit as an LD MP has to be reliable on a number of issues beyond Brexit.

    A lesser degree of support my be reasonable for some like Soubry, such as an electoral pact.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    Sean_F said:

    brendan16 said:

    Chris said:

    In the event that No Deal happens, and goes badly wrong, how many deaths definitely attributable to disruption of medical supplies could the prime minister survive?

    You should watch the current BBC series Years and Years with Emma Thompson playing a future Populist PM who seems to be based on Katie Hopkins. It’s a future post Brexit world where the EU seems to have collapsed and the poor and homeless have been ‘disappeared’ to ‘secure locations’.

    You would positively hyperventilate!

    It's a great series - scary though!
    Such a society sounds a bit too good to be true.
    It’s a hard call on who’s more repellent: Emma Thompson or Katie Hopkins.
    Katie Hopkins does not keep promises, she said she would run naked with a sausage up her arse if something happened politically! The event went against her and she failed to go running naked. I feel cheated! I was not really interested in whether she was harbouring a sausage but I was intrigued to her naked form!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 18,069
    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    DavidL said:

    This is another irritating and frustrating example of how inept May and Hammond's administration has been to prepare for the possibility of a no deal Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48611754

    Less that 10% of firms that need transitional arrangements have actually applied. May's refusal to see any way forward but her own deal negotiated whilst various Brexit Secretaries were not even in the room comes seriously close to criminal negligence and Hammond's refusal to address the possibility of no deal was a dereliction of duty. Its really unforgivable.

    But it makes the position of those who want to leave with no deal on 31st October come hell or high water little short of ridiculous. Yes Boris, that would be you (amongst others).

    Your fellow Leavers downthread believe that Britain should leave the EU with no deal on 31 October whether Britain is ready or not, as a salutary lesson if the public were to suffer.
    To be fair there are some PB Remainers - e.g. TSE, and perhaps yourself - who feel exactly the same?

    Both seem equally bonkers to me.
    My view is that all outcomes are disastrous from here. It’s just a choice of different disasters.
    Yes, very possibly. But at least we can enjoy the blissful summer.

    Oh.
    It is not yet St Swithins day

    Lovely on the Isle of Wight at the weekend, if a bit blowy.
    The Island dodged the worst of the rain, at least.
    I see that it has been a bit soggy in the East Midlands though. My new plantings are well watered in!
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Byronic said:

    DavidL said:

    This is another irritating and frustrating example of how inept May and Hammond's administration has been to prepare for the possibility of a no deal Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48611754

    Less that 10% of firms that need transitional arrangements have actually applied. May's refusal to see any way forward but her own deal negotiated whilst various Brexit Secretaries were not even in the room comes seriously close to criminal negligence and Hammond's refusal to address the possibility of no deal was a dereliction of duty. Its really unforgivable.

    But it makes the position of those who want to leave with no deal on 31st October come hell or high water little short of ridiculous. Yes Boris, that would be you (amongst others).

    Your fellow Leavers downthread believe that Britain should leave the EU with no deal on 31 October whether Britain is ready or not, as a salutary lesson if the public were to suffer.
    To be fair there are some PB Remainers - e.g. TSE, and perhaps yourself - who feel exactly the same?

    Both seem equally bonkers to me.
    I want to avoid a No Deal Brexit, quite simply a No Deal Brexit on the 31st of October would result in the deaths of people and that's something that has to be avoided at all costs.

    Just imagine if you had a loved one who died because of No Deal, you'd want to grab a baseball bat and smash the heads in of the nearest leavers, that's not good for the country.
    But you have called for No Deal on these very web-pages, as - in your eyes - it is the only way to teach Leavers a lesson, and for Brexit to be seen as the stupidity it is. Have you not?
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469

    MrsB said:

    IanB2 said:

    LDs would be well advised to tell them where to go. Soubry has no place in the the Liberal Democrat Party - the tensions between her political compass and the LDs would just be too great.
    Mike Gapes would be my final pick if i were LDs
    No way he would join and no way we would want him.
    You would put Chris Leslie ahead of Mike Gapes????
    Neither offer anything to LDs IMO

    You could argue a case for Allen and Chukka at a push Berger and Wollaston but the rest apply the barge pole
    Chris Leslie could be. After all, he is more Blairite than even Blair. The point about Allen, Umunna and Wollaston is that they have identifiable seats where with LD organization and their own name they could just possibly win. Heidi Allen definitely could.

    Leslie, Gapes, Berger represent extremely safe Labour seats. Streatham is a London "liberal" type seat.
    LAB 68.5%
    LD 6.5%
    True. But Chuka could get 34% - just saying. In any case, he would be the only ex-Labour with any chance.
  • Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    DavidL said:

    This is another irritating and frustrating example of how inept May and Hammond's administration has been to prepare for the possibility of a no deal Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48611754

    Less that 10% of firms that need transitional arrangements have actually applied. May's refusal to see any way forward but her own deal negotiated whilst various Brexit Secretaries were not even in the room comes seriously close to criminal negligence and Hammond's refusal to address the possibility of no deal was a dereliction of duty. Its really unforgivable.

    But it makes the position of those who want to leave with no deal on 31st October come hell or high water little short of ridiculous. Yes Boris, that would be you (amongst others).

    Your fellow Leavers downthread believe that Britain should leave the EU with no deal on 31 October whether Britain is ready or not, as a salutary lesson if the public were to suffer.
    To be fair there are some PB Remainers - e.g. TSE, and perhaps yourself - who feel exactly the same?

    Both seem equally bonkers to me.
    I want to avoid a No Deal Brexit, quite simply a No Deal Brexit on the 31st of October would result in the deaths of people and that's something that has to be avoided at all costs.

    Just imagine if you had a loved one who died because of No Deal, you'd want to grab a baseball bat and smash the heads in of the nearest leavers, that's not good for the country.
    But you have called for No Deal on these very web-pages, as - in your eyes - it is the only way to teach Leavers a lesson, and for Brexit to be seen as the stupidity it is. Have you not?
    No Deal later on when we're prepared for No Deal would do the trick.

    We will not be ready on the 31st of October.
  • eekeek Posts: 9,225
    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    DavidL said:

    This is another irritating and frustrating example of how inept May and Hammond's administration has been to prepare for the possibility of a no deal Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48611754

    Less that 10% of firms that need transitional arrangements have actually applied. May's refusal to see any way forward but her own deal negotiated whilst various Brexit Secretaries were not even in the room comes seriously close to criminal negligence and Hammond's refusal to address the possibility of no deal was a dereliction of duty. Its really unforgivable.

    But it makes the position of those who want to leave with no deal on 31st October come hell or high water little short of ridiculous. Yes Boris, that would be you (amongst others).

    Your fellow Leavers downthread believe that Britain should leave the EU with no deal on 31 October whether Britain is ready or not, as a salutary lesson if the public were to suffer.
    To be fair there are some PB Remainers - e.g. TSE, and perhaps yourself - who feel exactly the same?

    Both seem equally bonkers to me.
    I want to avoid a No Deal Brexit, quite simply a No Deal Brexit on the 31st of October would result in the deaths of people and that's something that has to be avoided at all costs.

    Just imagine if you had a loved one who died because of No Deal, you'd want to grab a baseball bat and smash the heads in of the nearest leavers, that's not good for the country.
    But you have called for No Deal on these very web-pages, as - in your eyes - it is the only way to teach Leavers a lesson, and for Brexit to be seen as the stupidity it is. Have you not?
    Checks whether SeanT has recently moved house....
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 37,058
    edited June 2019
    I oppose No Deal because its unplanned and unprepared, the disruption would be severe and the blowback would, in my view, see us rejoining sharpish and ending up being obliged to adopt the Euro. Like when we joined the EEC with a 7 year transition from Commonwealth preference (real world) I’ve always supported a similar slow and steady transition from EU to a new detached status that better reflects our political worldview (real world) and May’s Deal did it for me.

    Hard Leavers need to understand that if you sow the wind you have to be prepared to reap the whirlwind.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 18,069

    Byronic said:

    DavidL said:

    This is another irritating and frustrating example of how inept May and Hammond's administration has been to prepare for the possibility of a no deal Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48611754

    Less that 10% of firms that need transitional arrangements have actually applied. May's refusal to see any way forward but her own deal negotiated whilst various Brexit Secretaries were not even in the room comes seriously close to criminal negligence and Hammond's refusal to address the possibility of no deal was a dereliction of duty. Its really unforgivable.

    But it makes the position of those who want to leave with no deal on 31st October come hell or high water little short of ridiculous. Yes Boris, that would be you (amongst others).

    Your fellow Leavers downthread believe that Britain should leave the EU with no deal on 31 October whether Britain is ready or not, as a salutary lesson if the public were to suffer.
    To be fair there are some PB Remainers - e.g. TSE, and perhaps yourself - who feel exactly the same?

    Both seem equally bonkers to me.
    I want to avoid a No Deal Brexit, quite simply a No Deal Brexit on the 31st of October would result in the deaths of people and that's something that has to be avoided at all costs.

    Just imagine if you had a loved one who died because of No Deal, you'd want to grab a baseball bat and smash the heads in of the nearest leavers, that's not good for the country.
    Deaths will be few, I think. The impact on the NHS will be more on supplies rather than pharmaceuticals, as well as the worsening problems of staff retention. Mostly cancelled ops and longer waiting lists IMO. In the NHS we are usedto crisis management, we have one most days!

  • RogerRoger Posts: 12,698

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kjohnw said:

    DavidL said:

    Work has been getting in the way of politics for the last couple of days but my reading on here suggests so far as launches are concerned:

    Rory: wow, super wow, Obama moments.
    Boris: meh, no mistakes but meh.
    Sajid: wow, really inspirational.

    I think that we are seeing the mechanics here that make it so difficult for the front runner to win. The need to be careful, not to expose any (additional) flank or say anything controversial inhibits the front runner whilst those behind are dis-inhibited and more interesting.

    Its particularly unfortunate in Boris' case because his strengths are his charisma, his humour and his ability to engage with his audience. Take that away and he just looks bumbling. I think he is being poorly advised and needs to be let off the leash a bit. But what do I know?

    Comparing Rory Stewart to Obama -really?
    As I say I haven't heard or seen his pitch. But people on here were seriously enthusiastic. Especially non Tories, unfortunately for him.
    Rory is the only grown up in this race and the Tories will reject him at their peril
    I'm a fan but reject him they will. Probably tomorrow.
    They will because Rory hasn’t been speaking to his own party.
    To do that he'd need a lobotomy
  • eekeek Posts: 9,225

    Sean_F said:

    brendan16 said:

    Chris said:

    In the event that No Deal happens, and goes badly wrong, how many deaths definitely attributable to disruption of medical supplies could the prime minister survive?

    You should watch the current BBC series Years and Years with Emma Thompson playing a future Populist PM who seems to be based on Katie Hopkins. It’s a future post Brexit world where the EU seems to have collapsed and the poor and homeless have been ‘disappeared’ to ‘secure locations’.

    You would positively hyperventilate!

    It's a great series - scary though!
    Such a society sounds a bit too good to be true.
    It’s a hard call on who’s more repellent: Emma Thompson or Katie Hopkins.
    Katie Hopkins does not keep promises, she said she would run naked with a sausage up her arse if something happened politically! The event went against her and she failed to go running naked. I feel cheated! I was not really interested in whether she was harbouring a sausage but I was intrigued to her naked form!
    Her naked form (or referencing V - her real naked form)...
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469

    MrsB said:

    IanB2 said:

    LDs would be well advised to tell them where to go. Soubry has no place in the the Liberal Democrat Party - the tensions between her political compass and the LDs would just be too great.
    Mike Gapes would be my final pick if i were LDs
    No way he would join and no way we would want him.
    You would put Chris Leslie ahead of Mike Gapes????
    Neither offer anything to LDs IMO

    You could argue a case for Allen and Chukka at a push Berger and Wollaston but the rest apply the barge pole
    I'd take them all for now, on a no promises basis. The numbers would look good in parliament and ending CHUK would lead to fewer competitors on most ballot papers. But whether you want all of them standing next time.. not so sure.
    I doubt Gapes would stand again! But I agree with you that strength in numbers is critical. The LD would be foolish not to accept a boost to their numbers. It is not like any of the MPs has been tarred with anything negative. They all withstand scrutiny IMO and I cannot see any downside apart from the usual snipping from wannabe candidates who feel threatened.
    Austin Field and Woodcock also available if your bar is that low
    I would also put Flint, Mann and one or two others. Their names escape me.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    edited June 2019

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    DavidL said:

    This is another irritating and frustrating example of how inept May and Hammond's administration has been to prepare for the possibility of a no deal Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48611754

    Less that 10% of firms that need transitional arrangements have actually applied. May's refusal to see any way forward but her own deal negotiated whilst various Brexit Secretaries were not even in the room comes seriously close to criminal negligence and Hammond's refusal to address the possibility of no deal was a dereliction of duty. Its really unforgivable.

    But it makes the position of those who want to leave with no deal on 31st October come hell or high water little short of ridiculous. Yes Boris, that would be you (amongst others).

    Your fellow Leavers downthread believe that Britain should leave the EU with no deal on 31 October whether Britain is ready or not, as a salutary lesson if the public were to suffer.
    To be fair there are some PB Remainers - e.g. TSE, and perhaps yourself - who feel exactly the same?

    Both seem equally bonkers to me.
    I want to avoid a No Deal Brexit, quite simply a No Deal Brexit on the 31st of October would result in the deaths of people and that's something that has to be avoided at all costs.

    Just imagine if you had a loved one who died because of No Deal, you'd want to grab a baseball bat and smash the heads in of the nearest leavers, that's not good for the country.
    But you have called for No Deal on these very web-pages, as - in your eyes - it is the only way to teach Leavers a lesson, and for Brexit to be seen as the stupidity it is. Have you not?
    No Deal later on when we're prepared for No Deal would do the trick.

    We will not be ready on the 31st of October.
    OK, I am mystified now. You want No Deal to teach the Leavers a lesson, but you want a delayed and managed No Deal, so it will... teach them a less severe and less impressive lesson. Or something?

    It is the end of another trying day of summer rain, we are all tired. I get that.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 40,691

    DavidL said:

    kjohnw said:

    DavidL said:

    Work has been getting in the way of politics for the last couple of days but my reading on here suggests so far as launches are concerned:

    Rory: wow, super wow, Obama moments.
    Boris: meh, no mistakes but meh.
    Sajid: wow, really inspirational.

    I think that we are seeing the mechanics here that make it so difficult for the front runner to win. The need to be careful, not to expose any (additional) flank or say anything controversial inhibits the front runner whilst those behind are dis-inhibited and more interesting.

    Its particularly unfortunate in Boris' case because his strengths are his charisma, his humour and his ability to engage with his audience. Take that away and he just looks bumbling. I think he is being poorly advised and needs to be let off the leash a bit. But what do I know?

    Comparing Rory Stewart to Obama -really?
    As I say I haven't heard or seen his pitch. But people on here were seriously enthusiastic. Especially non Tories, unfortunately for him.
    Rory is the only grown up in this race and the Tories will reject him at their peril
    Peril?

    He would destroy the party.

    Die hard remainers won't vote for the Conservatives.
    Die hard leavers won't vote for Rory.

    One after next to put Brexit divisions behind us he could work. Not now.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Foxy said:

    MrsB said:

    IanB2 said:

    LDs would be well advised to tell them where to go. Soubry has no place in the the Liberal Democrat Party - the tensions between her political compass and the LDs would just be too great.
    Mike Gapes would be my final pick if i were LDs
    No way he would join and no way we would want him.
    You would put Chris Leslie ahead of Mike Gapes????
    Neither offer anything to LDs IMO

    You could argue a case for Allen and Chukka at a push Berger and Wollaston but the rest apply the barge pole
    I'd take them all for now, on a no promises basis. The numbers would look good in parliament and ending CHUK would lead to fewer competitors on most ballot papers. But whether you want all of them standing next time.. not so sure.
    I doubt Gapes would stand again! But I agree with you that strength in numbers is critical. The LD would be foolish not to accept a boost to their numbers. It is not like any of the MPs has been tarred with anything negative. They all withstand scrutiny IMO and I cannot see any downside apart from the usual snipping from wannabe candidates who feel threatened.
    Austin Field and Woodcock also available if your bar is that low
    Why not?! I am not a LD member, although I did vote for them in the locals and European elections. Politically, I am a swing voter but it makes sense to me for the LD to open themselves up to any centrist who wants to caucus with them.
    No, not really.

    Anyone wanting to sit as an LD MP has to be reliable on a number of issues beyond Brexit.

    A lesser degree of support my be reasonable for some like Soubry, such as an electoral pact.
    The LD can accommodate many different views and claim it is driven by localism! For instance the MP for Eastbourne is in favour of a Brexit deal compared to the rest of the party which is anti-Brexit. As long as an MP is not embarrassing, I cannot see they would turn anyone away as strategically it will boost their standing.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 18,069

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    DavidL said:

    This is another irritating and frustrating example of how inept May and Hammond's administration has been to prepare for the possibility of a no deal Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48611754

    Less that 10% of firms that need transitional arrangements have actually applied. May's refusal to see any way forward but her own deal negotiated whilst various Brexit Secretaries were not even in the room comes seriously close to criminal negligence and Hammond's refusal to address the possibility of no deal was a dereliction of duty. Its really unforgivable.

    But it makes the position of those who want to leave with no deal on 31st October come hell or high water little short of ridiculous. Yes Boris, that would be you (amongst others).

    Your fellow Leavers downthread believe that Britain should leave the EU with no deal on 31 October whether Britain is ready or not, as a salutary lesson if the public were to suffer.
    To be fair there are some PB Remainers - e.g. TSE, and perhaps yourself - who feel exactly the same?

    Both seem equally bonkers to me.
    I want to avoid a No Deal Brexit, quite simply a No Deal Brexit on the 31st of October would result in the deaths of people and that's something that has to be avoided at all costs.

    Just imagine if you had a loved one who died because of No Deal, you'd want to grab a baseball bat and smash the heads in of the nearest leavers, that's not good for the country.
    But you have called for No Deal on these very web-pages, as - in your eyes - it is the only way to teach Leavers a lesson, and for Brexit to be seen as the stupidity it is. Have you not?
    No Deal later on when we're prepared for No Deal would do the trick.

    We will not be ready on the 31st of October.
    Yes, there is a significant difference between an agreed and prepared No Deal in the brace position, and a chaotic, unprepared hostile Brexit.
  • eekeek Posts: 9,225

    Byronic said:

    DavidL said:

    This is another irritating and frustrating example of how inept May and Hammond's administration has been to prepare for the possibility of a no deal Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48611754

    Less that 10% of firms that need transitional arrangements have actually applied. May's refusal to see any way forward but her own deal negotiated whilst various Brexit Secretaries were not even in the room comes seriously close to criminal negligence and Hammond's refusal to address the possibility of no deal was a dereliction of duty. Its really unforgivable.

    But it makes the position of those who want to leave with no deal on 31st October come hell or high water little short of ridiculous. Yes Boris, that would be you (amongst others).

    Your fellow Leavers downthread believe that Britain should leave the EU with no deal on 31 October whether Britain is ready or not, as a salutary lesson if the public were to suffer.
    To be fair there are some PB Remainers - e.g. TSE, and perhaps yourself - who feel exactly the same?

    Both seem equally bonkers to me.
    My view is that all outcomes are disastrous from here. It’s just a choice of different disasters.
    All outcomes are bad (for everone) from here onwards and disastrous for some people.

    The question is either which is the least bad for most people and least bad for me. Personally I've shifted my income to $ so it won't really matter...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 37,058

    Sean_F said:

    brendan16 said:

    Chris said:

    In the event that No Deal happens, and goes badly wrong, how many deaths definitely attributable to disruption of medical supplies could the prime minister survive?

    You should watch the current BBC series Years and Years with Emma Thompson playing a future Populist PM who seems to be based on Katie Hopkins. It’s a future post Brexit world where the EU seems to have collapsed and the poor and homeless have been ‘disappeared’ to ‘secure locations’.

    You would positively hyperventilate!

    It's a great series - scary though!
    Such a society sounds a bit too good to be true.
    It’s a hard call on who’s more repellent: Emma Thompson or Katie Hopkins.
    Katie Hopkins does not keep promises, she said she would run naked with a sausage up her arse if something happened politically! The event went against her and she failed to go running naked. I feel cheated! I was not really interested in whether she was harbouring a sausage but I was intrigued to her naked form!
    If you want to see Hopkins naked you can google her making the beast with two backs.

    Personally, she doesn’t do it for me.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 2,298

    Byronic said:

    DavidL said:

    This is another irritating and frustrating example of how inept May and Hammond's administration has been to prepare for the possibility of a no deal Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48611754

    Less that 10% of firms that need transitional arrangements have actually applied. May's refusal to see any way forward but her own deal negotiated whilst various Brexit Secretaries were not even in the room comes seriously close to criminal negligence and Hammond's refusal to address the possibility of no deal was a dereliction of duty. Its really unforgivable.

    But it makes the position of those who want to leave with no deal on 31st October come hell or high water little short of ridiculous. Yes Boris, that would be you (amongst others).

    Your fellow Leavers downthread believe that Britain should leave the EU with no deal on 31 October whether Britain is ready or not, as a salutary lesson if the public were to suffer.
    To be fair there are some PB Remainers - e.g. TSE, and perhaps yourself - who feel exactly the same?

    Both seem equally bonkers to me.
    I want to avoid a No Deal Brexit, quite simply a No Deal Brexit on the 31st of October would result in the deaths of people and that's something that has to be avoided at all costs.

    Just imagine if you had a loved one who died because of No Deal, you'd want to grab a baseball bat and smash the heads in of the nearest leavers, that's not good for the country.
    A dangerous attitude.

    If Corbynism results in the implosion of the economy, unemployment skyrockets, homes are repossessed and people commit suicide - would you want to "get a baseball bat and smash in the head" of the nearest Labour voter?

    If you got one free hit (with a baseball bat) on everyone who's ever voted for a policy that resulted in accidental harm to someone else, how many people do you think would get their heads stoved in?
  • eekeek Posts: 9,225
    Foxy said:

    Byronic said:

    DavidL said:

    This is another irritating and frustrating example of how inept May and Hammond's administration has been to prepare for the possibility of a no deal Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48611754

    Less that 10% of firms that need transitional arrangements have actually applied. May's refusal to see any way forward but her own deal negotiated whilst various Brexit Secretaries were not even in the room comes seriously close to criminal negligence and Hammond's refusal to address the possibility of no deal was a dereliction of duty. Its really unforgivable.

    But it makes the position of those who want to leave with no deal on 31st October come hell or high water little short of ridiculous. Yes Boris, that would be you (amongst others).

    Your fellow Leavers downthread believe that Britain should leave the EU with no deal on 31 October whether Britain is ready or not, as a salutary lesson if the public were to suffer.
    To be fair there are some PB Remainers - e.g. TSE, and perhaps yourself - who feel exactly the same?

    Both seem equally bonkers to me.
    I want to avoid a No Deal Brexit, quite simply a No Deal Brexit on the 31st of October would result in the deaths of people and that's something that has to be avoided at all costs.

    Just imagine if you had a loved one who died because of No Deal, you'd want to grab a baseball bat and smash the heads in of the nearest leavers, that's not good for the country.
    Deaths will be few, I think. The impact on the NHS will be more on supplies rather than pharmaceuticals, as well as the worsening problems of staff retention. Mostly cancelled ops and longer waiting lists IMO. In the NHS we are usedto crisis management, we have one most days!

    So in your opinion we won't have any real initial problems but longer term we are going to have issues - No Deal may just bring those issues forward a bit...
  • Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    DavidL said:

    This is another irritating and frustrating example of how inept May and Hammond's administration has been to prepare for the possibility of a no deal Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48611754

    Less that 10% of firms that need transitional arrangements have actually applied. May's refusal to see any way forward but her own deal negotiated whilst various Brexit Secretaries were not even in the room comes seriously close to criminal negligence and Hammond's refusal to address the possibility of no deal was a dereliction of duty. Its really unforgivable.

    But it makes the position of those who want to leave with no deal on 31st October come hell or high water little short of ridiculous. Yes Boris, that would be you (amongst others).

    Your fellow Leavers downthread believe that Britain should leave the EU with no deal on 31 October whether Britain is ready or not, as a salutary lesson if the public were to suffer.
    To be fair there are some PB Remainers - e.g. TSE, and perhaps yourself - who feel exactly the same?

    Both seem equally bonkers to me.
    I want to avoid a No Deal Brexit, quite simply a No Deal Brexit on the 31st of October would result in the deaths of people and that's something that has to be avoided at all costs.

    Just imagine if you had a loved one who died because of No Deal, you'd want to grab a baseball bat and smash the heads in of the nearest leavers, that's not good for the country.
    But you have called for No Deal on these very web-pages, as - in your eyes - it is the only way to teach Leavers a lesson, and for Brexit to be seen as the stupidity it is. Have you not?
    No Deal later on when we're prepared for No Deal would do the trick.

    We will not be ready on the 31st of October.
    OK, I am mystified now. You want No Deal to teach the Leavers a lesson, but you want a delayed and managed No Deal, so it will... teach them a less severe and less impressive lesson. Or something?

    It is the end of another trying day of summer rain, we are all tired. I get that.
    See Foxy's post at 6:51.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Foxy said:

    Byronic said:

    DavidL said:

    This is another irritating and frustrating example of how inept May and Hammond's administration has been to prepare for the possibility of a no deal Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48611754

    Less that 10% of firms that need transitional arrangements have actually applied. May's refusal to see any way forward but her own deal negotiated whilst various Brexit Secretaries were not even in the room comes seriously close to criminal negligence and Hammond's refusal to address the possibility of no deal was a dereliction of duty. Its really unforgivable.

    But it makes the position of those who want to leave with no deal on 31st October come hell or high water little short of ridiculous. Yes Boris, that would be you (amongst others).

    Your fellow Leavers downthread believe that Britain should leave the EU with no deal on 31 October whether Britain is ready or not, as a salutary lesson if the public were to suffer.
    To be fair there are some PB Remainers - e.g. TSE, and perhaps yourself - who feel exactly the same?

    Both seem equally bonkers to me.
    I want to avoid a No Deal Brexit, quite simply a No Deal Brexit on the 31st of October would result in the deaths of people and that's something that has to be avoided at all costs.

    Just imagine if you had a loved one who died because of No Deal, you'd want to grab a baseball bat and smash the heads in of the nearest leavers, that's not good for the country.
    Deaths will be few, I think. The impact on the NHS will be more on supplies rather than pharmaceuticals, as well as the worsening problems of staff retention. Mostly cancelled ops and longer waiting lists IMO. In the NHS we are usedto crisis management, we have one most days!

    I think the idea there will be deaths is nuts. Mini deals will be done to prevent this (the EU will need them as much as us). The borders will probably be completely opened, for a while (irony alert) to facilitate trade, until a new temporary trading arrangement can be put in place.

    So No Deal won't be lethal. But it will be chaotic, expensive, tedious and unpleasant. Best avoided.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 18,069
    eek said:

    Foxy said:

    Byronic said:

    DavidL said:

    This is another irritating and frustrating example of how inept May and Hammond's administration has been to prepare for the possibility of a no deal Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48611754

    Less that 10% of firms that need transitional arrangements have actually applied. May's refusal to see any way forward but her own deal negotiated whilst various Brexit Secretaries were not even in the room comes seriously close to criminal negligence and Hammond's refusal to address the possibility of no deal was a dereliction of duty. Its really unforgivable.

    But it makes the position of those who want to leave with no deal on 31st October come hell or high water little short of ridiculous. Yes Boris, that would be you (amongst others).

    Your fellow Leavers downthread believe that Britain should leave the EU with no deal on 31 October whether Britain is ready or not, as a salutary lesson if the public were to suffer.
    To be fair there are some PB Remainers - e.g. TSE, and perhaps yourself - who feel exactly the same?

    Both seem equally bonkers to me.
    I want to avoid a No Deal Brexit, quite simply a No Deal Brexit on the 31st of October would result in the deaths of people and that's something that has to be avoided at all costs.

    Just imagine if you had a loved one who died because of No Deal, you'd want to grab a baseball bat and smash the heads in of the nearest leavers, that's not good for the country.
    Deaths will be few, I think. The impact on the NHS will be more on supplies rather than pharmaceuticals, as well as the worsening problems of staff retention. Mostly cancelled ops and longer waiting lists IMO. In the NHS we are usedto crisis management, we have one most days!

    So in your opinion we won't have any real initial problems but longer term we are going to have issues - No Deal may just bring those issues forward a bit...
    No, supplies will be an issue very quickly, with multiple operations cancelled, and equipment out of service. There is more to the NHS than handing out pills.

    In the longer term, yes staffing will be the big problem.
  • eekeek Posts: 9,225
    Byronic said:

    DavidL said:

    Work has been getting in the way of politics for the last couple of days but my reading on here suggests so far as launches are concerned:

    Rory: wow, super wow, Obama moments.
    Boris: meh, no mistakes but meh.
    Sajid: wow, really inspirational.

    I think that we are seeing the mechanics here that make it so difficult for the front runner to win. The need to be careful, not to expose any (additional) flank or say anything controversial inhibits the front runner whilst those behind are dis-inhibited and more interesting.

    Its particularly unfortunate in Boris' case because his strengths are his charisma, his humour and his ability to engage with his audience. Take that away and he just looks bumbling. I think he is being poorly advised and needs to be let off the leash a bit. But what do I know?

    But Boris has that tantalising poll to dangle in front of them.

    "With me, unlike anyone else, you get a whopping majority, just look into my eyes...."

    I predict enough MPs will succumb, Boris will make it to the final 2. Then he wins.

    He just needs to avoid any more gaffes.
    He doesn't it only looks like that until you remember polls may just be based on public knowledge

    And Boris ran London and didn't mind looking like an idiot when the zipwire broke...
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 1,920

    DavidL said:

    kjohnw said:

    DavidL said:

    Work has been getting in the way of politics for the last couple of days but my reading on here suggests so far as launches are concerned:

    Rory: wow, super wow, Obama moments.
    Boris: meh, no mistakes but meh.
    Sajid: wow, really inspirational.

    I think that we are seeing the mechanics here that make it so difficult for the front runner to win. The need to be careful, not to expose any (additional) flank or say anything controversial inhibits the front runner whilst those behind are dis-inhibited and more interesting.

    Its particularly unfortunate in Boris' case because his strengths are his charisma, his humour and his ability to engage with his audience. Take that away and he just looks bumbling. I think he is being poorly advised and needs to be let off the leash a bit. But what do I know?

    Comparing Rory Stewart to Obama -really?
    As I say I haven't heard or seen his pitch. But people on here were seriously enthusiastic. Especially non Tories, unfortunately for him.
    Rory is the only grown up in this race and the Tories will reject him at their peril
    Completely sympathise with this, but from a Tory perspective among the unicorn providers on offer he offers the TM one already tried and failed. So why should he possibly be a candidate now with a chance? furthermore such evidence as there is suggests he will find it difficult to win an election. A Tory member may feel that it is perilous to reject him, but that it is even more perilous to accept him. The member could end up with No Brexit, No Tory Government and No Tory Party. Hope he gets it next time. If there is a next time.

  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    edited June 2019
    eek said:

    Byronic said:

    DavidL said:

    Work has been getting in the way of politics for the last couple of days but my reading on here suggests so far as launches are concerned:

    Rory: wow, super wow, Obama moments.
    Boris: meh, no mistakes but meh.
    Sajid: wow, really inspirational.

    I think that we are seeing the mechanics here that make it so difficult for the front runner to win. The need to be careful, not to expose any (additional) flank or say anything controversial inhibits the front runner whilst those behind are dis-inhibited and more interesting.

    Its particularly unfortunate in Boris' case because his strengths are his charisma, his humour and his ability to engage with his audience. Take that away and he just looks bumbling. I think he is being poorly advised and needs to be let off the leash a bit. But what do I know?

    But Boris has that tantalising poll to dangle in front of them.

    "With me, unlike anyone else, you get a whopping majority, just look into my eyes...."

    I predict enough MPs will succumb, Boris will make it to the final 2. Then he wins.

    He just needs to avoid any more gaffes.
    He doesn't it only looks like that until you remember polls may just be based on public knowledge

    And Boris ran London and didn't mind looking like an idiot when the zipwire broke...
    But that poll is all we have to go on. If I were a Tory MP (thank the Good Lord I am Not) I'd be looking at it, with fierce concentration.

    I agree it is almost a voodoo poll, but when you are in Haiti (as we are, politically) then voodoo is what you use.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 29,837

    kjohnw said:

    IanB2 said:

    How pitiful is it that the clear front-runner to be our next PM has to hide from the media and any scrutiny and has carefully to be shepherded to make sure he can avoid being asked any sort of difficult question?

    He was getting questioned at his launch today was he not?
    He allowed 6 questions from selected journalists and to several of them he simply failed to give any answer whatsoever. This man is not fit to be PM
    and Uncle Vince is?
    Uncle Vince was never a potential PM.
    He would be in the running if there was an election tomorrow. Given the government is the most unstable for 40 years, it's not a ludicrous as it sounds.
    Don't be silly , he could not run a bath and Lib Dems would be also rans.
  • eekeek Posts: 9,225

    This is interesting to me.. not because I think a GE *will* follow this, but I thought once we were beyond the Euros, the Brexit/LD surge would start to fall back in favour of Con/Lab - but it looks like VI is moving towards that result.

    Maybe we still need to get past the Tory leadership, or even Brexit? In which case, a pre-Brexit GE would be, um, entertaining.

    Remember earlier today when I said the remain parties need to get organised to ensure people know where to vote.

    Were an election to occur I suspect the leave vote will split in a way that remain won an awful lot of seats....
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 18,069
    Byronic said:

    Foxy said:

    Byronic said:

    DavidL said:

    This is another irritating and frustrating example of how inept May and Hammond's administration has been to prepare for the possibility of a no deal Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48611754

    Less that 10% of firms that need transitional arrangements have actually applied. May's refusal to see any way forward but her own deal negotiated whilst various Brexit Secretaries were not even in the room comes seriously close to criminal negligence and Hammond's refusal to address the possibility of no deal was a dereliction of duty. Its really unforgivable.

    But it makes the position of those who want to leave with no deal on 31st October come hell or high water little short of ridiculous. Yes Boris, that would be you (amongst others).

    Your fellow Leavers downthread believe that Britain should leave the EU with no deal on 31 October whether Britain is ready or not, as a salutary lesson if the public were to suffer.
    To be fair there are some PB Remainers - e.g. TSE, and perhaps yourself - who feel exactly the same?

    Both seem equally bonkers to me.
    I want to avoid a No Deal Brexit, quite simply a No Deal Brexit on the 31st of October would result in the deaths of people and that's something that has to be avoided at all costs.

    Just imagine if you had a loved one who died because of No Deal, you'd want to grab a baseball bat and smash the heads in of the nearest leavers, that's not good for the country.
    Deaths will be few, I think. The impact on the NHS will be more on supplies rather than pharmaceuticals, as well as the worsening problems of staff retention. Mostly cancelled ops and longer waiting lists IMO. In the NHS we are usedto crisis management, we have one most days!

    I think the idea there will be deaths is nuts. Mini deals will be done to prevent this (the EU will need them as much as us). The borders will probably be completely opened, for a while (irony alert) to facilitate trade, until a new temporary trading arrangement can be put in place.

    So No Deal won't be lethal. But it will be chaotic, expensive, tedious and unpleasant. Best avoided.
    The problem with "No Deal" is that actually it requires multiple "mini deals". It could just about work in a prepared manner, with good will. It is far less likely in a hostile environment that is likely to occur with Boris's ramped up jingoistic claptrap.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 12,698
    The only hope is that Sarah Vine has a cunning plan otherwise we're in for years of Boris. He'll hoover up all the Faragists and the Labour Hartlepudlians will choose Boris any day of the week over Corbyn. If he gets in he stays in.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Conservatives who voted YES

    Bebb
    Clarke
    Djanogly
    Greening
    Grieve
    Gyimah
    Lee
    Letwin
    Sandbach
    Spelman

    Labour who voted No

    Barrow
    Campbell
    Fitzpatrick
    Flint
    obviously Hepburn
    Hoey
    Mann
    Stringer


    Austin and Lewis for No


    No vote recorded

    Baron, Bradley, Collins, Harrington, Knight, Mercer, Offord, Perry, Bob Stewart, Vazey, Watling

    Field, Hopking, O'Marah, Angela Smith

    Efford, Elliott, Farrely, Gaffney, Hussain, Keeley, Lucas, Marsden, Onn, Smeeth, Snell, Stevens, Derek Twigg

    Stephen Hepburn loves voting No to everything.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 6,509
    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    Foxy said:

    Byronic said:

    DavidL said:

    This is another irritating and frustrating example of how inept May and Hammond's administration has been to prepare for the possibility of a no deal Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48611754

    Less that 10% of firms that need transitional arrangements have actually applied. May's refusal to see any way forward but her own deal negotiated whilst various Brexit Secretaries were not even in the room comes seriously close to criminal negligence and Hammond's refusal to address the possibility of no deal was a dereliction of duty. Its really unforgivable.

    But it makes the position of those who want to leave with no deal on 31st October come hell or high water little short of ridiculous. Yes Boris, that would be you (amongst others).

    Your fellow Leavers downthread believe that Britain should leave the EU with no deal on 31 October whether Britain is ready or not, as a salutary lesson if the public were to suffer.
    To be fair there are some PB Remainers - e.g. TSE, and perhaps yourself - who feel exactly the same?

    Both seem equally bonkers to me.
    I want to avoid a No Deal Brexit, quite simply a No Deal Brexit on the 31st of October would result in the deaths of people and that's something that has to be avoided at all costs.

    Just imagine if you had a loved one who died because of No Deal, you'd want to grab a baseball bat and smash the heads in of the nearest leavers, that's not good for the country.
    Deaths will be few, I think. The impact on the NHS will be more on supplies rather than pharmaceuticals, as well as the worsening problems of staff retention. Mostly cancelled ops and longer waiting lists IMO. In the NHS we are usedto crisis management, we have one most days!

    So in your opinion we won't have any real initial problems but longer term we are going to have issues - No Deal may just bring those issues forward a bit...
    No, supplies will be an issue very quickly, with multiple operations cancelled, and equipment out of service. There is more to the NHS than handing out pills.

    In the longer term, yes staffing will be the big problem.
    How many deaths is "few", though? I've read that even now there can be significant problems getting some prescription drugs.

    This is what I asked earlier. How many deaths directly attributable to a No Deal Brexit could the prime minister and the Tory party survive?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 28,082

    Dead Thread

  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Foxy said:

    Byronic said:

    Foxy said:

    Byronic said:

    DavidL said:

    This is another irritating and frustrating example of how inept May and Hammond's administration has been to prepare for the possibility of a no deal Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48611754

    Less that 10% of firms that need transitional arrangements have actually applied. May's refusal to see any way forward but her own deal negotiated whilst various Brexit Secretaries were not even in the room comes seriously close to criminal negligence and Hammond's refusal to address the possibility of no deal was a dereliction of duty. Its really unforgivable.

    But it makes the position of those who want to leave with no deal on 31st October come hell or high water little short of ridiculous. Yes Boris, that would be you (amongst others).

    Your fellow Leavers downthread believe that Britain should leave the EU with no deal on 31 October whether Britain is ready or not, as a salutary lesson if the public were to suffer.
    To be fair there are some PB Remainers - e.g. TSE, and perhaps yourself - who feel exactly the same?

    Both seem equally bonkers to me.
    I want to avoid a No Deal Brexit, quite simply a No Deal Brexit on the 31st of October would result in the deaths of people and that's something that has to be avoided at all costs.

    Just imagine if you had a loved one who died because of No Deal, you'd want to grab a baseball bat and smash the heads in of the nearest leavers, that's not good for the country.
    Deaths

    I think

    So No Deal won't be lethal. But it will be chaotic, expensive, tedious and unpleasant. Best avoided.
    The problem with "No Deal" is that actually it requires multiple "mini deals". It could just about work in a prepared manner, with good will. It is far less likely in a hostile environment that is likely to occur with Boris's ramped up jingoistic claptrap.
    I'm not sure Boris is that relevant, he cannot command the waves. And I think the tides of history are carrying us towards No Deal.

    I agree that we need to steer carefully, nonetheless - perhaps the apt comparison is deliberately beaching a ship in a storm, to save the passengers, rather than breaking the ship on the rocks, and losing lives.
  • eekeek Posts: 9,225
    edited June 2019

    OllyT said:


    That is overthinking it. Is Corbyn going to say he would rather have a Tory Brexit than an election?

    He's spent the last two years working pretty hard towards it.
    He's spent 2 years saying "I want another election, I want another election". If the PM calls for an election the idea he could say "actually no thanks" is ludicrous.
    It is not ludicrous. The Tories are heading for a car crash either way in October why would the opposition want to let them off the hook. Corbyn maybe desperate to get into the driving seat but he doesn't want to be sitting there on October 31st.
    Corbyn can't say "I don't want an election because I want the UK to disastrously crash under the Tories first". He may think it but he can't say or do it.
    He can't close Parliament if No Deal is the default option. And were the election to be in October - it would take a miracle to escape No Deal or Revoke - which is why if we have an election it will be on September 12th and I will once again vote for the losing candidate so will vote tory locally...

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 15,005
    kyf_100 said:

    Byronic said:

    DavidL said:

    This is another irritating and frustrating example of how inept May and Hammond's administration has been to prepare for the possibility of a no deal Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48611754

    Less that 10% of firms that need transitional arrangements have actually applied. May's refusal to see any way forward but her own deal negotiated whilst various Brexit Secretaries were not even in the room comes seriously close to criminal negligence and Hammond's refusal to address the possibility of no deal was a dereliction of duty. Its really unforgivable.

    But it makes the position of those who want to leave with no deal on 31st October come hell or high water little short of ridiculous. Yes Boris, that would be you (amongst others).

    Your fellow Leavers downthread believe that Britain should leave the EU with no deal on 31 October whether Britain is ready or not, as a salutary lesson if the public were to suffer.
    To be fair there are some PB Remainers - e.g. TSE, and perhaps yourself - who feel exactly the same?

    Both seem equally bonkers to me.
    I want to avoid a No Deal Brexit, quite simply a No Deal Brexit on the 31st of October would result in the deaths of people and that's something that has to be avoided at all costs.

    Just imagine if you had a loved one who died because of No Deal, you'd want to grab a baseball bat and smash the heads in of the nearest leavers, that's not good for the country.
    A dangerous attitude.

    If Corbynism results in the implosion of the economy, unemployment skyrockets, homes are repossessed and people commit suicide - would you want to "get a baseball bat and smash in the head" of the nearest Labour voter?

    If you got one free hit (with a baseball bat) on everyone who's ever voted for a policy that resulted in accidental harm to someone else, how many people do you think would get their heads stoved in?
    Or anyone who voted for a government that lined the pockets of house builders and inflated a housing bubble.
  • NEW THREAD

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