> @Streeter said: > @Sean_F said: > > A lot of people on both sides have persuaded themselves that a political disagreement is a conflict between the children of light and the children of darkness. > > > > +++++++++++++++++ > > > > The new Conservative Leader needs to come out and say to the Leavers: "you will not get all you desire, but you will get the UK out of the EU. You will get an end to FoM. You will get us out of the CAP and the CFP. You will get an end ECJ supremacy over EU law. But this cannot simply be an exit for Nigel Farage, it has to be an exit that works for everyone." > > > > And then they need to say to the Remainers: "Yes, I know you think it sucks that we're leaving the EU. But that is what the people voted for, and you see the strength of the Brexit Party vote last week. This genie will not be put back into the bottle. But let me give you something for your support: we're going to maintain our membership of Erasmus, so that Brits can still go to European universities. We're going to try and remain as close as we can to the EU, so there will be simplified processes for people from there coming to work here. This isn't going to be fortress Britain, this is going to be the UK walking alongside the EU." > > Not good enough for either side. This is a fight to the death and Remain will win.
Which proves my point. For some people, the only thing that matters is to triumph over people that they despise. If it wasn't the EU, it would be abortion or the death penalty, or hunting.
@Richard_Tyndall said: The crisis is caused by the Remainer delusions.
@OblitusSumMe said: This crisis has been made by Leavers
++++++++++
The crisis is made by both, obviously.
The person for whom I have the most respect, in this whole crazy mess, is the MP for Eastbourne, Stephen Lloyd. A man willing to back a deal he felt was best for the country, even though it will cost him his career. The easy option for him would have been to be in favour of some unicorn, so he could say "Oh, I back Brexit, but not this Brexit." Instead he said, "Well, I may be a Remainer, but this is the right thing for the country." And he chose that path, even though it has resulted in the whip having been withdrawn, and it almost certainly means his deselection.
Those (many) Labour MPs who profess to back Brexit, but who put Party over Country. You are part of the problem.
Those (slightly fewer, but still numerous) Conservative MPs who see No Deal as achievable through suspending parliament and letting the clock run down. You too are part of the problem.
> @nico67 said: > The much vaunted far right surge in the EU didn’t happen . Of course very disappointing for the right wing media who were still desperately trying to peddle that narrative even though Liberals and the Greens did very well . > > The stampede to the exit door forecast by Farage and co hasn’t happened , the right in France and Italy have dropped that and in the Netherlands the party there pushing for an exit got the sum total of 11% . In Spain the overhyped far right surge amounted to a massive 6% for Vox ! > > This of course makes uncomfortable reading for those Leavers desperate for some validation of Brexit , and for those who seem to yearn for the collapse of the EU . > > The reality is the only union close to collapse is that of the UK. > > Scotland and Northern Ireland once again said emphatically no to Brexit . Regardless of the desperate spin by Farage and co there is absolutely no mandate for no deal . > > Now we have the unedifying spectacle of Tories parading themselves to the Membership to see who can be most anti EU , to promise no deal to satisfy the aged and unhinged World War 2 wannabes . > > It’s really a tragic state of affairs where the population is effectively a hostage to the whims of 140,000 right wing bigots who yearn for the days of Miss Marple and some deluded notion of pure sovereignty .
On the face of it, it looks as though populist Right Wing parties did rather well.
I saw the guardian headline that jezza now backed a second referendum, but when you read what he said it sounded very much same old, GE, if we dont get that, then a deal and if a deal, a public vote on it.
> @brokenwheel said: > The figures behind that post-election Ashcroft poll are really fascinating, and explains a lot about the result. And perhaps why pollsters got the result wrong. > > It suggests turnout among ABs was at general election level of 70%, whereas among everyone else it was under a third, with C2s really under-performing; white van man didn't come out to vote.
Which cells are you looking at? I can't replicate it as the poll seems to exclude non-voters.
> @Richard_Tyndall said: > > @Ishmael_Z said: > > > @glw said: > > > The crisis is caused by the Remainer delusions. They still think that overturning a democratic vote is a viable way of settling the issue. > > > > > > I've heard a ton of people advocate a People's Vote with the presumption that Remain will win. I don't think I've heard any one of them say what would happen next. They seem to share a delusion that it will put the EU issue to bed forever. > > Nothing would happen, because Remain is the default, and we could stop this divisive crap and disband the DexEU and get on with our lives. The EU issue can then put itself to bed or not as it pleases, because we will never ever ever ever have a referendum on it, or anything else, ever again. If you want to regard that as a dystopian vision of the boot of everyone who just wants to get on with their bloody lives stamping on the face of Therwilloftherpeople forever, be my guest. > > You really are deluded if you believe that. The world has changed and you can't put it back to the way you want it to be.
Really Richard, it is beyond irony for anyone that is an advocate of Brexit, the deluded's most delusional project, to be accusing anyone of being deluded.
the whole thing is a complete mess. the only person who is genuinely please is Vladimir. It reminds me of Black Sabbath's "War Pigs", "Satan laughing spreads his wings, oh Lord yea"
> @WhisperingOracle said: > The media narrative from the right before the election was that this could be a breakthrough for the Brexit Party outside the confines of the normal Tory core vote ; it hasn't worked out that way.
The Conservatives rarely carry Durham Sheffield, or Bolsover.
Given that they have just been hammered because large numbers of people did not trust them on Brexit, it’s quite remarkable that they can’t make their position clear and continue to use evasive words that only stoke mistrust in them.
> @eek said: > > @Richard_Tyndall said: > > > @OblitusSumMe said: > > > > @Richard_Tyndall said: > > > > > > > > The crisis is caused by the Remainer delusions. They still think that overturning a democratic vote is a viable way of settling the issue. > > > > > > This crisis has been made by Leavers not willing to vote for compromise and not willing to take responsibility for the Brexit they campaigned for - instead trying to insist that Remainers impose Brexit on them so that they can continue to cry betrayal. > > > > > > It is the most infantile behaviour I have ever seen. > > > > Someone else who has a problem with Maths. 27 morons from the ERG voted against the deal. If the Remainers in Parliament had supported it then it would have passed overwhelmingly. But of course they didn't because they were more interested in stopping Brexit than actually serving the country. > > 27 morons failed to vote for the deal. The opposition, however, performed the task they were given by their constituents (which is to oppose). > > It is not the job of anyone bar a conservative MP to vote for a policy / law being implemented by a conservative Government. >
It is not just a question of who voted for what. On the 10 December the ERG trashed the deal so thoroughly (before they had even had time to read it) that it became so much harder for opposition MPs who could live with it to publicly vote for it. The division within the Tory party then took over to become an open goal for Labour, hence the failure to get any of the expected Labour supporters over the line.
If the ERG had behaved reasonably and without excessive hyperbole when the deal came out, we would have left by now.
> > I've already said that I could live with a soft Brexit. So no I am not an extremist. I want to avoid a No Deal Exit. If that is the option then I would prefer a referendum - because there is no mandate for a No Deal exit and it should get it.
> >
> > Frankly, there is no clarity and the parties are all at sea. We should take a long pause to work out exactly what we want - not just in relation to a transition - but also in relation to the final arrangement with the EU. We need as a nation to work out our strategy vis-a-vis the EU. I have argued for this many many times below and above the line.
> >
> > It won't happen. But if a minority insist on taking us out on a No Deal basis out of blind panic or because they are more interested in the fate of their party (and I fully accept that this is not your position) then I will support whatever will stop that. I am much more fearful of a No Deal exit and a Corbyn government than you are. Maybe I am wrong to think so. But that is my position: it has hardened in response to the behaviour of the ERG and others who have deliberately scuppered any attempt at compromise.
>
> If we do not leave then a Corbyn Government is absolutely guaranteed. So which do you fear more?
I'm not sure I agree. But I think the most disastrous option is to have a No Deal exit followed by a Corbyn government. Which is what the Tories will be enabling.
To be perfectly honest if the government had followed your initial suggestion we'd be in a much better place. All options now are bad. It's a question of choosing the least worst one.
The leave vote opened a Pandora’s box. It is abundantly clear that moderate leavers are in a minority (as quite probably are moderate remainers like ourselves). Neither group is going to be the one which chooses.
When are Betfair going to settle the Brexit vote share market? NI has declared... Western Isles too I believe... and why is it still possible to lay "under 30%"? Is someone expecting an injunction against certification on behalf of the "disenfranchised" EU citizens?
> @Jonathan said: > > @SouthamObserver said: > > > @MaxPB said: > > > I actually think it would be worthwhile for the new PM to bring Ken Clark back into the tent and maybe even the traitorous Grieve. We should try and find a solution to this that keeps as many people on side as possible. No deal just doesn't have a mandate. Neither does revoke. A second referendum will, IMO, ratchet up the pressure and make everything worse when in fact we should be cooling things down. > > > > > > To be constructive, one of the things that ramps up the pressure is the feeling on both sides that this is the last chance. A compromise deal would have more chance of being accepted if it wasn't seen as final. Many on the EU side talk rather patronisingly about 'parking' the UK outside the EU institutions for a period while we sort ourselves out and decide what we want. Personally I don't like the sound of that but it has some logic to it. > > > > > > That pressure will eventually break out into the streets. Luckily leavers seems content with registering their displeasure at the ballot box and not in the streets. I fear that even that won't last much longer and talk of a second referendum will bring about a reckoning. > > > > Hordes of Anne Widdecombes roaming the streets looking for trouble? > > > > 35% of 38% voted for No Deal parties. It's not exactly an uprising. 40% of 38% voted for Remain parties. Europe largely remains a minority interest in the UK. > > @SouthamObserver the hard Brexiteers managed fewer votes that signatures on the Revoke Petition. Enthusiasm for Brexit is shallow.
Meaningless. How many of those who signed the petition are actually allowed to vote in any referendum. One could just as easily point out that Remain parties got less than half the number of votes that were cast for Leave in the referendum. It is an equally meaningless statistic.
> @brokenwheel said: > The figures behind that post-election Ashcroft poll are really fascinating, and explains a lot about the result. And perhaps why pollsters got the result wrong. > > It suggests turnout among ABs was at general election level of 70%, whereas among everyone else it was under a third, with C2s really under-performing; white van man didn't come out to vote. > > I've checked a few constituency demographics and it tallys well with reported turnout. This in itself pretty much completely explains the turnout differential between Remain and Leave constituencies. I understand now why my polling station had crap turnout. > > What it does mean is that this election is the most Remainy it gets, a future General election or Referendum will contain far more strongly leave demographics.
Will this EU election be remembered as REMAINS last stand?
> @eek said: > > @Richard_Tyndall said: > > > @OblitusSumMe said: > > > > @Richard_Tyndall said: > > > > > > > > The crisis is caused by the Remainer delusions. They still think that overturning a democratic vote is a viable way of settling the issue. > > > > > > This crisis has been made by Leavers not willing to vote for compromise and not willing to take responsibility for the Brexit they campaigned for - instead trying to insist that Remainers impose Brexit on them so that they can continue to cry betrayal. > > > > > > It is the most infantile behaviour I have ever seen. > > > > Someone else who has a problem with Maths. 27 morons from the ERG voted against the deal. If the Remainers in Parliament had supported it then it would have passed overwhelmingly. But of course they didn't because they were more interested in stopping Brexit than actually serving the country. > > 27 morons failed to vote for the deal. The opposition, however, performed the task they were given by their constituents (which is to oppose). > > It is not the job of anyone bar a conservative MP to vote for a policy / law being implemented by a conservative Government. >
it was a policy that practically every MP in the Labour party was elected on. What price honour amongst Remainers?
> @noneoftheabove said: > > @Richard_Tyndall said: > > > @Cyclefree said: > > > > > > > > I've already said that I could live with a soft Brexit. So no I am not an extremist. I want to avoid a No Deal Exit. If that is the option then I would prefer a referendum - because there is no mandate for a No Deal exit and it should get it. > > > > > > Frankly, there is no clarity and the parties are all at sea. We should take a long pause to work out exactly what we want - not just in relation to a transition - but also in relation to the final arrangement with the EU. We need as a nation to work out our strategy vis-a-vis the EU. I have argued for this many many times below and above the line. > > > > > > It won't happen. But if a minority insist on taking us out on a No Deal basis out of blind panic or because they are more interested in the fate of their party (and I fully accept that this is not your position) then I will support whatever will stop that. I am much more fearful of a No Deal exit and a Corbyn government than you are. Maybe I am wrong to think so. But that is my position: it has hardened in response to the behaviour of the ERG and others who have deliberately scuppered any attempt at compromise. > > > > If we do not leave then a Corbyn Government is absolutely guaranteed. So which do you fear more? > > In your black and white world maybe. In reality no party is likely to get a majority, and a Corbyn government will be a centre left rather than extreme left govt reigned in by other parties and the moderates within Labour.
> @FrancisUrquhart said: > I saw the guardian headline that jezza now backed a second referendum, but when you read what he said it sounded very much same old, GE, if we dont get that, then a deal and if a deal, a public vote on it.
> @Nigel_Foremain said: > > @Richard_Tyndall said: > > > @Ishmael_Z said: > > > > @glw said: > > > > The crisis is caused by the Remainer delusions. They still think that overturning a democratic vote is a viable way of settling the issue. > > > > > > > > I've heard a ton of people advocate a People's Vote with the presumption that Remain will win. I don't think I've heard any one of them say what would happen next. They seem to share a delusion that it will put the EU issue to bed forever. > > > Nothing would happen, because Remain is the default, and we could stop this divisive crap and disband the DexEU and get on with our lives. The EU issue can then put itself to bed or not as it pleases, because we will never ever ever ever have a referendum on it, or anything else, ever again. If you want to regard that as a dystopian vision of the boot of everyone who just wants to get on with their bloody lives stamping on the face of Therwilloftherpeople forever, be my guest. > > > > You really are deluded if you believe that. The world has changed and you can't put it back to the way you want it to be. > > Really Richard, it is beyond irony for anyone that is an advocate of Brexit, the deluded's most delusional project, to be accusing anyone of being deluded. > > the whole thing is a complete mess. the only person who is genuinely please is Vladimir. It reminds me of Black Sabbath's "War Pigs", "Satan laughing spreads his wings, oh Lord yea"
I don't know. I'm all in favour of Remaining, but I've concerns beyond number about counting chickens. If someone will guarantee that a second referendum will have such a majority that the Leavers will vanish, never to be seen again, all well and good. I don't believe that will happen. I think we've two 'tribes' in the UK; Remainers and Leavers and it's going to take a an event of Civil War proportions to get us back on track. In the 17thC Restoration of the monarchy needed the death of the architect of the Commonwealth, plus popular dissatisfaction with the current civic set-up to bring back the Monarchy. I fear we're in a similar place.
The person for whom I have the most respect, in this whole crazy mess, is the MP for Eastbourne, Stephen Lloyd. A man willing to back a deal he felt was best for the country, even though it will cost him his career. The easy option for him would have been to be in favour of some unicorn, so he could say "Oh, I back Brexit, but not this Brexit." Instead he said, "Well, I may be a Remainer, but this is the right thing for the country." And he chose that path, even though it has resulted in the whip having been withdrawn, and it almost certainly means his deselection.
Those (many) Labour MPs who profess to back Brexit, but who put Party over Country. You are part of the problem.
Those (slightly fewer, but still numerous) Conservative MPs who see No Deal as achievable through suspending parliament and letting the clock run down. You too are part of the problem.
I could go on.
You could. But at the end of the day, this is what you voted for.
> The figures behind that post-election Ashcroft poll are really fascinating, and explains a lot about the result. And perhaps why pollsters got the result wrong.
>
> It suggests turnout among ABs was at general election level of 70%, whereas among everyone else it was under a third, with C2s really under-performing; white van man didn't come out to vote.
Which cells are you looking at? I can't replicate it as the poll seems to exclude non-voters.
Yes it's a survey of people who voted. I'm looking at the social grade columns, the poll isn't weighted by social grade so WYSIWYG.
E.g. It implies 42% of those who voted were AB. AB are 22% of the population. 22% divided by 42% * 37% = ~70%. That's the same as a general election. Others much much lower.
As I said it fits based on reported local turnouts and those areas demographics.
The figures behind that post-election Ashcroft poll are really fascinating, and explains a lot about the result. And perhaps why pollsters got the result wrong.
It suggests turnout among ABs was at general election level of 70%, whereas among everyone else it was under a third, with C2s really under-performing; white van man didn't come out to vote.
I need to point out that I posted on here at least twice before the election that turnout modelling for this election would be very difficult. Companies such as YouGov that have taken great pains to get a representative panel are still vulnerable if they model the turnout inaccurately.
You seem to think you can get people to back what you want by threatening them with the consequences of not complying, whether it's a Corbyn government or the country being ravaged by an uprising of the Olden Hordes.
> @FrancisUrquhart said: > I saw the guardian headline that jezza now backed a second referendum, but when you read what he said it sounded very much same old, GE, if we dont get that, then a deal and if a deal, a public vote on it.
Well, while plenty of Labour people were mad at him before, plenty others were trying to convince the public it was already policy to referendum under any circumstances, so I'm not surprised he's still being evasive - they'll claim the policy is what they want regardless.
> > @SouthamObserver said: > > The people of Northern Ireland have made their views on the backstop absolutely clear. The Alliance party is non-sectarian and will have got a lot of its votes from middle class Protestants. Why not just give the Northern Irish the final say on the backstop and the border? It's them who will be affected by it, after all. If you do that, all the stuff about how appalling it is for NI to be treated differently etc just goes away.
Too late for that. The WA is dead in the eyes of too many Tories, and was never alive for Labour, it doesn't matter if the people of NI would accept it or not now.
> @Nigel_Foremain said: > > @Richard_Tyndall said: > > > @Ishmael_Z said: > > > > @glw said: > > > > The crisis is caused by the Remainer delusions. They still think that overturning a democratic vote is a viable way of settling the issue. > > > > > > > > I've heard a ton of people advocate a People's Vote with the presumption that Remain will win. I don't think I've heard any one of them say what would happen next. They seem to share a delusion that it will put the EU issue to bed forever. > > > Nothing would happen, because Remain is the default, and we could stop this divisive crap and disband the DexEU and get on with our lives. The EU issue can then put itself to bed or not as it pleases, because we will never ever ever ever have a referendum on it, or anything else, ever again. If you want to regard that as a dystopian vision of the boot of everyone who just wants to get on with their bloody lives stamping on the face of Therwilloftherpeople forever, be my guest. > > > > You really are deluded if you believe that. The world has changed and you can't put it back to the way you want it to be. > > Really Richard, it is beyond irony for anyone that is an advocate of Brexit, the deluded's most delusional project, to be accusing anyone of being deluded. > > the whole thing is a complete mess. the only person who is genuinely please is Vladimir. It reminds me of Black Sabbath's "War Pigs", "Satan laughing spreads his wings, oh Lord yea"
Oh dear. Up pops Nigel with his fantasies. Some of us are trying to suggest solutions but you are still stuck in your own little world utterly divorced from reality.
> Yes it's a survey of people who voted. I'm looking at the social grade columns, the poll isn't weighted by social grade so WYSIWYG. > > E.g. It implies 42% of those who voted were AB. AB are 22% of the population. 22% divided by 42% * 37% = ~70%. That's the same as a general election. Others much much lower. > > As I said it fits based on reported local turnouts and those areas demographics.
> @kle4 said: > > > @SouthamObserver said: > > > The people of Northern Ireland have made their views on the backstop absolutely clear. The Alliance party is non-sectarian and will have got a lot of its votes from middle class Protestants. Why not just give the Northern Irish the final say on the backstop and the border? It's them who will be affected by it, after all. If you do that, all the stuff about how appalling it is for NI to be treated differently etc just goes away. > > Too late for that. The WA is dead in the eyes of too many Tories, and was never alive for Labour, it doesn't matter if the people of NI would accept it or not now.
They would always have accepted it with the backstop. No-one ever bothered asking them. It was not convenient to do so. That's how precious the Union really is to English politicians.
It's not remarkable at all. They don't really want a second referendum or to remain but do want the votes of those who do. So they're trying to say enough to persuade them back into the Labour fold, at which point they will be ignored, as they have been for the last 3 years. Labour is led by someone who has been anti-EU all his life. His closest advisors have always been anti-EU all their lives.
What's remarkable is why people choose to believe otherwise.
> @williamglenn said: > What moderates? They will all have been purged. > > You seem to think you can get people to back what you want by threatening them with the consequences of not complying, whether it's a Corbyn government or the country being ravaged by an uprising of the Olden Hordes.
I am neither threatening anyone nor seeking their backing. I simply state the facts as I see them just as I have always done.
> @rcs1000 said: > @Sean_F said: > On the face of it, it looks as though populist Right Wing parties did rather well. > > +++++++++++++ > > The Eurosceptics (ENF/ECR/EFDD) and the Euroenthusisasts (ALDE/G) both did well, while the soggy rest (S&D, EPP) did appallingly.
Which proves my point. For some people, the only thing that matters is to triumph over people that they despise. If it wasn't the EU, it would be abortion or the death penalty, or hunting.
Climate Change is an issue already going in the same direction, the demands and language are getting increasingly extreme. I expect that it will become a very divisive issue in the years ahead.
> @FrancisUrquhart said: > I would be very hesitant to predict anything on the back of an election with half the turn out of the referendum and after basically no campaigning.
A five week old party advocating a no-deal Brexit beating its nearest rival by 12% in an election that very strongly favours Remain turnout is a straw in the wind though IMO...
> @glw said: > Which proves my point. For some people, the only thing that matters is to triumph over people that they despise. If it wasn't the EU, it would be abortion or the death penalty, or hunting. > > Climate Change is an issue already going in the same direction, the demands and language are getting increasingly extreme. I expect that it will become a very divisive issue in the years ahead.
LGBTQ issues is similar. Not just the muslim protests in birmingham, but lefty feminists vs trans activists is got extremely nasty.
> @Richard_Tyndall said: > > @Nigel_Foremain said: > > > @Richard_Tyndall said: > > > > @Ishmael_Z said: > > > > > @glw said: > > > > > The crisis is caused by the Remainer delusions. They still think that overturning a democratic vote is a viable way of settling the issue. > > > > > > > > > > I've heard a ton of people advocate a People's Vote with the presumption that Remain will win. I don't think I've heard any one of them say what would happen next. They seem to share a delusion that it will put the EU issue to bed forever. > > > > Nothing would happen, because Remain is the default, and we could stop this divisive crap and disband the DexEU and get on with our lives. The EU issue can then put itself to bed or not as it pleases, because we will never ever ever ever have a referendum on it, or anything else, ever again. If you want to regard that as a dystopian vision of the boot of everyone who just wants to get on with their bloody lives stamping on the face of Therwilloftherpeople forever, be my guest. > > > > > > You really are deluded if you believe that. The world has changed and you can't put it back to the way you want it to be. > > > > Really Richard, it is beyond irony for anyone that is an advocate of Brexit, the deluded's most delusional project, to be accusing anyone of being deluded. > > > > the whole thing is a complete mess. the only person who is genuinely please is Vladimir. It reminds me of Black Sabbath's "War Pigs", "Satan laughing spreads his wings, oh Lord yea" > > Oh dear. Up pops Nigel with his fantasies. Some of us are trying to suggest solutions but you are still stuck in your own little world utterly divorced from reality.
I think we can agree that Nigel’s fantasies, divorced from reality, are a problem for all of us. Those of a PB poster, not so much.
> @Cyclefree said: > > @AlastairMeeks said: > > > @AndyJS said: > > > "Labour pivots to support second EU referendum 'now' after election slump" > > > > > > https://news.sky.com/story/labour-pivots-to-support-second-eu-referendum-now-after-election-slump-11729708 > > > > Given that they have just been hammered because large numbers of people did not trust them on Brexit, it’s quite remarkable that they can’t make their position clear and continue to use evasive words that only stoke mistrust in them. > > It's not remarkable at all. They don't really want a second referendum or to remain but do want the votes of those who do. So they're trying to say enough to persuade them back into the Labour fold, at which point they will be ignored, as they have been for the last 3 years. Labour is led by someone who has been anti-EU all his life. His closest advisors have always been anti-EU all their lives. > > What's remarkable is why people choose to believe otherwise.
I think Hunt will win the first round but then face Portillo's fate in 2001 and be overtaken by both Boris and Gove in the subsequent rounds who will pick up most of Raab, Javid, McVey's support etc.
It could well then be a Boris v Gove final two sent to Tory members
> @rcs1000 said: > @Richard_Tyndall said: > The crisis is caused by the Remainer delusions. > > @OblitusSumMe said: > This crisis has been made by Leavers > > ++++++++++ > > The crisis is made by both, obviously. > > The person for whom I have the most respect, in this whole crazy mess, is the MP for Eastbourne, Stephen Lloyd. A man willing to back a deal he felt was best for the country, even though it will cost him his career. The easy option for him would have been to be in favour of some unicorn, so he could say "Oh, I back Brexit, but not this Brexit." Instead he said, "Well, I may be a Remainer, but this is the right thing for the country." And he chose that path, even though it has resulted in the whip having been withdrawn, and it almost certainly means his deselection. > > Those (many) Labour MPs who profess to back Brexit, but who put Party over Country. You are part of the problem. > > Those (slightly fewer, but still numerous) Conservative MPs who see No Deal as achievable through suspending parliament and letting the clock run down. You too are part of the problem. > > I could go on.
I think A Meeks was right when he said it would cause trouble to have Remainers vote for a Brexit opposed by Leavers. They can insist that we have a deal, but I don't think they can force a specific deal through that is opposed by Leavers.
Leavers have to vote for a deal. And they have to be realistic and realise that to make a deal it has to be something the other side - i.e. the EU - can live with. They seem stuck in their delusion that the EU oppresses us which prevents then from agreeing any deal with the EU.
At some point Leavers will seriously ask themselves why they have comprehensively failed to create any kind of consensus behind their electoral mandate. But not yet. Right now they’re far more comfortable blaming abstract Remainers for their intransigence rather than examining why they not only made no net converts but are if anything losing ground.
> Which proves my point. For some people, the only thing that matters is to triumph over people that they despise. If it wasn't the EU, it would be abortion or the death penalty, or hunting.
>
> Climate Change is an issue already going in the same direction, the demands and language are getting increasingly extreme. I expect that it will become a very divisive issue in the years ahead.
LGBTQ issues is similar. Not just the muslim protests in birmingham, but lefty feminists vs trans activists is got extremely nasty.
As Paula Radcliffe has found out. She has views about the eligibitiy of transgendered athletes in women's sports, fairly moderate views* in my opinion, and gets all kinds of stick for it, with some people complaining that she is committing a hate crime.
* She seems mainly concerned about fuzzy rules being open to abuse by unscrupulious coaches, promoters, and sporting bodies.
Important to point out the Ashcroft survey's Westminster question is polling people who voted, not the general population. As above the demographics of the people who voted in this election look nothing like the totals for a General Election. Also a reason to be cautious about reading to much into the vote flows with respect to a GE, these are patterns from only a disproportionate part of the electorate.
Bit annoyed with Ladbrokes who have settled the losing bets in the EU Parliamentary elections but are prevaricating on paying out on the winning ones, despite the final results being known for a few hours now.
> @Casino_Royale said: > Bit annoyed with Ladbrokes who have settled the losing bets in the EU Parliamentary elections but are prevaricating on paying out on the winning ones, despite the final results being known for a few hours now. > > Skybet have already settled with no fuss.
Betfair are holding out on the vote share markets for no obvious reason.
> @OblitusSumMe said: > > @rcs1000 said: > > @Richard_Tyndall said: > > The crisis is caused by the Remainer delusions. > > > > @OblitusSumMe said: > > This crisis has been made by Leavers > > > > ++++++++++ > > > > The crisis is made by both, obviously. > > > > The person for whom I have the most respect, in this whole crazy mess, is the MP for Eastbourne, Stephen Lloyd. A man willing to back a deal he felt was best for the country, even though it will cost him his career. The easy option for him would have been to be in favour of some unicorn, so he could say "Oh, I back Brexit, but not this Brexit." Instead he said, "Well, I may be a Remainer, but this is the right thing for the country." And he chose that path, even though it has resulted in the whip having been withdrawn, and it almost certainly means his deselection. > > > > Those (many) Labour MPs who profess to back Brexit, but who put Party over Country. You are part of the problem. > > > > Those (slightly fewer, but still numerous) Conservative MPs who see No Deal as achievable through suspending parliament and letting the clock run down. You too are part of the problem. > > > > I could go on. > > I think A Meeks was right when he said it would cause trouble to have Remainers vote for a Brexit opposed by Leavers. They can insist that we have a deal, but I don't think they can force a specific deal through that is opposed by Leavers. > > Leavers have to vote for a deal. And they have to be realistic and realise that to make a deal it has to be something the other side - i.e. the EU - can live with. They seem stuck in their delusion that the EU oppresses us which prevents then from agreeing any deal with the EU.
Equating No Dealers with the majority of Leavers either inside or outside Parliament is another dishonest tactic. I do not claim that all Remainers are federalists like Williamglenn. Both are equally disingenuous claims.
On the face of it, it looks as though populist Right Wing parties did rather well.
+++++++++++++
The Eurosceptics (ENF/ECR/EFDD) and the Euroenthusisasts (ALDE/G) both did well, while the soggy rest (S&D, EPP) did appallingly.
Not all EPP member parties did badly. Orban and his Fidesz party in Hungary won nearly 60 per cent of the vote. His party will probably not be in the EPP much longer though!
The populist EFDD group may not continue as it lacks parties from sufficient member states. Not clear what Farage and Five star from Italy will do instead - will they struggle on together and try to form a new group with various stragglers and independents or will Farage join the soft eurosceptic ECR with Hannan and the other 3 Tories? It matters as being in a group brings in the cash.
It’s unlikely Farage will be a group leader anymore so won’t be doing his grandstanding speeches at the plenary sessions against the Commission etc. I am sure they will be disappointed!
> @HYUFD said: > > @kle4 said: > > > @HYUFD said: > > > > > https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1133042173102952449 > > > > > > > > > > > > Jeremy Hunt = Why? > > > > He's hoping to get through as the blandest candidate. > > I think Hunt will win the first round but then face Portillo's fate in 2001 and be overtaken by both Boris and Gove in the subsequent rounds who will pick up most of Raab, Javid, McVey's support etc. > > It could well then be a Boris v Gove final two sent to Tory members
Legally, certainly not. But come on. It's no more likely to pass even with a 'confirmatory ballot', certainly when all her MPs would refuse to back her on the grounds that they are about to seek new leadership to avoid that very outcome.
Bit annoyed with Ladbrokes who have settled the losing bets in the EU Parliamentary elections but are prevaricating on paying out on the winning ones, despite the final results being known for a few hours now.
The two most striking political moments I saw today today were Ann Widdicombe embracing Nigel Farage with an intensity that would embarrass her dance partner and the announcement that pressure is being put on Labour's leadership to sack Seamus Milne for giving Corbyn bad advice! I thought it was only Tories who sacked the oik?
At some point Leavers will seriously ask themselves why they have comprehensively failed to create any kind of consensus behind their electoral mandate. But not yet. Right now they’re far more comfortable blaming abstract Remainers for their intransigence rather than examining why they not only made no net converts but are if anything losing ground.
> @williamglenn said: > I am neither threatening anyone nor seeking their backing. I simply state the facts as I see them just as I have always done. > > As you see it, there will be a terrible, terrible reckoning unless the world falls into line with your view of things.
As I have said before my view of things was already defeated right back at the start of the post referendum era. It is fanatics like you who have brought us to this sorry state.
Any chance that by "go home, you lost!", they meant to stop the partisan ranting - where she called them all fascists - and actually, err, to just stop talking, and go home?
> @brokenwheel said: > The figures behind that post-election Ashcroft poll are really fascinating, and explains a lot about the result. And perhaps why pollsters got the result wrong. > > It suggests turnout among ABs was at general election level of 70%, whereas among everyone else it was under a third, with C2s really under-performing; white van man didn't come out to vote. > > I've checked a few constituency demographics and it tallys well with reported turnout. This in itself pretty much completely explains the turnout differential between Remain and Leave constituencies. I understand now why my polling station had crap turnout. > > What it does mean is that this election is the most Remainy it gets, a future General election or Referendum will contain far more strongly leave demographics.
Will this EU election be remembered as REMAINS last stand?
It would be funny if the UK got pushed into a 2nd ref off the back of this vote and it turns out all the people who turn up in the referendum swing to Leave.
Nice as usual for Brexit options to be split 3 ways whereas apparently there is only one future form of remain? Can’t we have 3 of each in the confirmatory public vote - eg options around Schengen, joining the Euro, EU army etc etc?
It is immaterial what effect it has on the Loser's Vote. Just like with Gina Miller's case, if it is the right thing to do then it should be supported irrespective of whether it works against my side or not. You should never sacrifice your basic principles for political expediency.
> @ah009 said: > > @brendan16 said: > > > @ah009 said: > > > > @StuartDickson said: > > > > > @kle4 said: > > > > > Theresa May can be criticised for many things but she tried her utmost to deliver a meaningful Brexit. > > > > > > > > > > Quite. Badly, and she failed, but she tried. > > > > > > > > Eddie the Eagle “tried” being a ski jumper. He failed. But it was a great comic act. > > > > > > Difference is, Eddie knew when to jump. May had to be pushed. > > > > It depends where you think the Tories future lies. Barwell was looking at things from the perspective of winning back Croydon - Bradley from the perspective of retaining Mansfield. > > > > Its the same problem Labour has - how do you keep London and the north/midlands on board? There is such a massive dislocation now in England between (inner) London and the university towns and everywhere else. How do they bridge that gap - when by definition the media/most MPs is so London centric - cos thats where they live. > > It's not a new problem. This is what's been going on in Scotland for years. There' are only three possible futures: > 1. Federalism, and here I mean not just the four nations but regions. > 2. Proportional representation (my favoured option) > 3. Disintegrations (the default if 1. or 2. can't be agreed) > > The main opposition to the first two will be the Conservative and Unionist Party, thus they will be the ones to deliver number 3. Unless they can be swept out of the way
When the Union fails it will be thanks to the efforts of the Conservative and Unionist Party. The auld Unionist Party should never have chucked in the towel in the 1960s. That was the beginning of the end.
> @Quincel said: > > @Casino_Royale said: > > Bit annoyed with Ladbrokes who have settled the losing bets in the EU Parliamentary elections but are prevaricating on paying out on the winning ones, despite the final results being known for a few hours now. > > > > Skybet have already settled with no fuss. > > Betfair are holding out on the vote share markets for no obvious reason.
Also annoying.
Perhaps they now have a strategy of holding onto winning punters money for as long as they can get away with?
> @MaxPB said: > I think the final two will be Gove vs one of Javid or Hunt. The rest are too transfer unfriendly, Boris especially so.
Few if any Raab supporters will go to Javid or Hunt, same with McVey. Javid is also likely to go out before Boris, Gove, Hunt and Raab and see most of his support go to Gove or Boris or Raab and he does not get on with Hunt.
The only MPs transfers I can see Hunt getting in any numbers are from Hancock and Harper and they are too low to make a significant difference so I think Gove v Boris or Raab is more likely than Gove v Javid or Hunt.
Nice as usual for Brexit options to be split 3 ways whereas apparently there is only one future form of remain? Can’t we have 3 of each in the confirmatory public vote - eg options around Schengen, joining the Euro, EU army etc etc?
Still makes Brexit 50 vs remain 46?
That’s why they want a referendum between Remain and an option that splits the leave vote
> @kle4 said: > https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1133084631585218560 > > > > Legally, certainly not. But come on. It's no more likely to pass even with a 'confirmatory ballot', certainly when all her MPs would refuse to back her on the grounds that they are about to seek new leadership to avoid that very outcome.
According to Radio 4 this evening about 40 Labour MPs from Leave seats won by the Brexit Party last night have come out and refused to back EUref2 with a Remain option under any cirumstances. They could thus yet back the WA if Corbyn switches to EUref2 as Labour party policy rather than just a CU as previously and that would be enough when added onto the 286 who voted for the WA on MV3 to give it a majority finally with 326 votes.
> > Bit annoyed with Ladbrokes who have settled the losing bets in the EU Parliamentary elections but are prevaricating on paying out on the winning ones, despite the final results being known for a few hours now.
> >
> > Skybet have already settled with no fuss.
>
> Betfair are holding out on the vote share markets for no obvious reason.
Also annoying.
Perhaps they now have a strategy of holding onto winning punters money for as long as they can get away with?
As I have said before my view of things was already defeated right back at the start of the post referendum era. It is fanatics like you who have brought us to this sorry state.
No Richard it is you and the people who voted Leave. Where we are today was entirely foreseeable. It is of course fine for people like you to say you are surprised at this outcome but unforgivable for those who might end up running the county.
Now you may say, and I know this is your line, that whatever flavour of leave is better than remain, but this is a disaster and you set the process in motion.
And you can't now blame the people who voted not to put us through this.
It's complex - the EU results are in essence 28 national elections with all the internal politics involved. In some places existing Governments did well, in others less so. In some areas the right and centre-right did well, in others the left and centre-left prospered.
Across the new EU Parliament, ALDE, the Greens, the ENF and the EFDD have all prospered with the main losers the EPP and S&D groups.
It's complex - here as well. I've never supported a second referendum even though it's LD policy and possibly now Labour policy. I'm opposed for three reasons:
1) As with others, I'm uncomfortable with the overturning of the 2016 EU Referendum vote without that vote being enacted.
2) The WA is 585 pages of legalese - how can such a document be put to the British people in a simple, clear and transparent way? Frankly I don't anyone to "simplify" it because it will be spun the way they want. How can we get a simple objective presentation of what is in the WA and what it would mean?
3) What would be on the ballot paper - options (Remain, Leave without the WA or Leave with the WA) or a more binary leave with the WA or leave without it. Neither option looks politically feasible or satisfactory and as others have said there is ample room for further rancour and potential for violence.
One of my reasons for wanting to leave the EU was opposition to the Single Market which I believe has done untold damage to the peripheral areas of Europe in the name of "economic co-operation". It's a Thatcherite instrument and I find it curious some of those wanting us out of the EU would be the strongest of her supporters yet find themselves opposed to a measure she supported and in many ways enabled. Much of the shape of the modern EU derives from the work of Baron Cockfield in the 1980s who was put into post by Margaret Thatcher to energise the internal economy of the then EEC.
I suppose it comes back to "unintended consequences" - what might have worked in a Europe dominated by the west and south became more difficult with enlargement post 1989.
So Gove’s idea is that any EU national who can produce a rental agreement linked to a UK property - just one evidence of address which could be easily faked - gets free British citizenship?
I had to provide more evidence to get a blue badge for my elderly father and he had to at least pay a tenner to get one
Surely processing a citizenship application should cost the applicant more than a parking badge for the elderly and disabled?
Why not means test it like welfare and social care?
> @HYUFD said: > > @kle4 said: > > https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1133084631585218560 > > > > > > > > Legally, certainly not. But come on. It's no more likely to pass even with a 'confirmatory ballot', certainly when all her MPs would refuse to back her on the grounds that they are about to seek new leadership to avoid that very outcome. > > According to Radio 4 this evening about 40 Labour MPs from Leave seats won by the Brexit Party last night have come out and refused to back EUref2 with a Remain option under any cirumstances. They could thus yet back the WA if Corbyn switches to EUref2 as Labour party policy rather than just a CU as previously and that would be enough when added onto the 286 who voted for the WA on MV3 to give it a majority finally with 326 votes.
Yeah, the problem is the 286 who voted for it last time are unlikely to all vote for it again in a final attempt by May!
Comments
> @Sean_F said:
>
> A lot of people on both sides have persuaded themselves that a political disagreement is a conflict between the children of light and the children of darkness.
>
>
>
> +++++++++++++++++
>
>
>
> The new Conservative Leader needs to come out and say to the Leavers: "you will not get all you desire, but you will get the UK out of the EU. You will get an end to FoM. You will get us out of the CAP and the CFP. You will get an end ECJ supremacy over EU law. But this cannot simply be an exit for Nigel Farage, it has to be an exit that works for everyone."
>
>
>
> And then they need to say to the Remainers: "Yes, I know you think it sucks that we're leaving the EU. But that is what the people voted for, and you see the strength of the Brexit Party vote last week. This genie will not be put back into the bottle. But let me give you something for your support: we're going to maintain our membership of Erasmus, so that Brits can still go to European universities. We're going to try and remain as close as we can to the EU, so there will be simplified processes for people from there coming to work here. This isn't going to be fortress Britain, this is going to be the UK walking alongside the EU."
>
> Not good enough for either side. This is a fight to the death and Remain will win.
Which proves my point. For some people, the only thing that matters is to triumph over people that they despise. If it wasn't the EU, it would be abortion or the death penalty, or hunting.
The crisis is caused by the Remainer delusions.
@OblitusSumMe said:
This crisis has been made by Leavers
++++++++++
The crisis is made by both, obviously.
The person for whom I have the most respect, in this whole crazy mess, is the MP for Eastbourne, Stephen Lloyd. A man willing to back a deal he felt was best for the country, even though it will cost him his career. The easy option for him would have been to be in favour of some unicorn, so he could say "Oh, I back Brexit, but not this Brexit." Instead he said, "Well, I may be a Remainer, but this is the right thing for the country." And he chose that path, even though it has resulted in the whip having been withdrawn, and it almost certainly means his deselection.
Those (many) Labour MPs who profess to back Brexit, but who put Party over Country. You are part of the problem.
Those (slightly fewer, but still numerous) Conservative MPs who see No Deal as achievable through suspending parliament and letting the clock run down. You too are part of the problem.
I could go on.
> The much vaunted far right surge in the EU didn’t happen . Of course very disappointing for the right wing media who were still desperately trying to peddle that narrative even though Liberals and the Greens did very well .
>
> The stampede to the exit door forecast by Farage and co hasn’t happened , the right in France and Italy have dropped that and in the Netherlands the party there pushing for an exit got the sum total of 11% . In Spain the overhyped far right surge amounted to a massive 6% for Vox !
>
> This of course makes uncomfortable reading for those Leavers desperate for some validation of Brexit , and for those who seem to yearn for the collapse of the EU .
>
> The reality is the only union close to collapse is that of the UK.
>
> Scotland and Northern Ireland once again said emphatically no to Brexit . Regardless of the desperate spin by Farage and co there is absolutely no mandate for no deal .
>
> Now we have the unedifying spectacle of Tories parading themselves to the Membership to see who can be most anti EU , to promise no deal to satisfy the aged and unhinged World War 2 wannabes .
>
> It’s really a tragic state of affairs where the population is effectively a hostage to the whims of 140,000 right wing bigots who yearn for the days of Miss Marple and some deluded notion of pure sovereignty .
On the face of it, it looks as though populist Right Wing parties did rather well.
> "Labour pivots to support second EU referendum 'now' after election slump"
>
> https://news.sky.com/story/labour-pivots-to-support-second-eu-referendum-now-after-election-slump-11729708
Will Hoey, Skinner, Flint Mann and Nandy LEAVE?
> The figures behind that post-election Ashcroft poll are really fascinating, and explains a lot about the result. And perhaps why pollsters got the result wrong.
>
> It suggests turnout among ABs was at general election level of 70%, whereas among everyone else it was under a third, with C2s really under-performing; white van man didn't come out to vote.
Which cells are you looking at? I can't replicate it as the poll seems to exclude non-voters.
> > @Ishmael_Z said:
> > > @glw said:
> > > The crisis is caused by the Remainer delusions. They still think that overturning a democratic vote is a viable way of settling the issue.
> > >
> > > I've heard a ton of people advocate a People's Vote with the presumption that Remain will win. I don't think I've heard any one of them say what would happen next. They seem to share a delusion that it will put the EU issue to bed forever.
> > Nothing would happen, because Remain is the default, and we could stop this divisive crap and disband the DexEU and get on with our lives. The EU issue can then put itself to bed or not as it pleases, because we will never ever ever ever have a referendum on it, or anything else, ever again. If you want to regard that as a dystopian vision of the boot of everyone who just wants to get on with their bloody lives stamping on the face of Therwilloftherpeople forever, be my guest.
>
> You really are deluded if you believe that. The world has changed and you can't put it back to the way you want it to be.
Really Richard, it is beyond irony for anyone that is an advocate of Brexit, the deluded's most delusional project, to be accusing anyone of being deluded.
the whole thing is a complete mess. the only person who is genuinely please is Vladimir. It reminds me of Black Sabbath's "War Pigs", "Satan laughing spreads his wings, oh Lord yea"
> The media narrative from the right before the election was that this could be a breakthrough for the Brexit Party outside the confines of the normal Tory core vote ; it hasn't worked out that way.
The Conservatives rarely carry Durham Sheffield, or Bolsover.
> "Labour pivots to support second EU referendum 'now' after election slump"
>
> https://news.sky.com/story/labour-pivots-to-support-second-eu-referendum-now-after-election-slump-11729708
Given that they have just been hammered because large numbers of people did not trust them on Brexit, it’s quite remarkable that they can’t make their position clear and continue to use evasive words that only stoke mistrust in them.
On the face of it, it looks as though populist Right Wing parties did rather well.
+++++++++++++
The Eurosceptics (ENF/ECR/EFDD) and the Euroenthusisasts (ALDE/G) both did well, while the soggy rest (S&D, EPP) did appallingly.
> > @Richard_Tyndall said:
> > > @OblitusSumMe said:
> > > > @Richard_Tyndall said:
> > > >
> > > > The crisis is caused by the Remainer delusions. They still think that overturning a democratic vote is a viable way of settling the issue.
> > >
> > > This crisis has been made by Leavers not willing to vote for compromise and not willing to take responsibility for the Brexit they campaigned for - instead trying to insist that Remainers impose Brexit on them so that they can continue to cry betrayal.
> > >
> > > It is the most infantile behaviour I have ever seen.
> >
> > Someone else who has a problem with Maths. 27 morons from the ERG voted against the deal. If the Remainers in Parliament had supported it then it would have passed overwhelmingly. But of course they didn't because they were more interested in stopping Brexit than actually serving the country.
>
> 27 morons failed to vote for the deal. The opposition, however, performed the task they were given by their constituents (which is to oppose).
>
> It is not the job of anyone bar a conservative MP to vote for a policy / law being implemented by a conservative Government.
>
It is not just a question of who voted for what. On the 10 December the ERG trashed the deal so thoroughly (before they had even had time to read it) that it became so much harder for opposition MPs who could live with it to publicly vote for it. The division within the Tory party then took over to become an open goal for Labour, hence the failure to get any of the expected Labour supporters over the line.
If the ERG had behaved reasonably and without excessive hyperbole when the deal came out, we would have left by now.
Neither group is going to be the one which chooses.
> > @SouthamObserver said:
> > > @MaxPB said:
> > > I actually think it would be worthwhile for the new PM to bring Ken Clark back into the tent and maybe even the traitorous Grieve. We should try and find a solution to this that keeps as many people on side as possible. No deal just doesn't have a mandate. Neither does revoke. A second referendum will, IMO, ratchet up the pressure and make everything worse when in fact we should be cooling things down.
> > >
> > > To be constructive, one of the things that ramps up the pressure is the feeling on both sides that this is the last chance. A compromise deal would have more chance of being accepted if it wasn't seen as final. Many on the EU side talk rather patronisingly about 'parking' the UK outside the EU institutions for a period while we sort ourselves out and decide what we want. Personally I don't like the sound of that but it has some logic to it.
> > >
> > > That pressure will eventually break out into the streets. Luckily leavers seems content with registering their displeasure at the ballot box and not in the streets. I fear that even that won't last much longer and talk of a second referendum will bring about a reckoning.
> >
> > Hordes of Anne Widdecombes roaming the streets looking for trouble?
> >
> > 35% of 38% voted for No Deal parties. It's not exactly an uprising. 40% of 38% voted for Remain parties. Europe largely remains a minority interest in the UK.
>
> @SouthamObserver the hard Brexiteers managed fewer votes that signatures on the Revoke Petition. Enthusiasm for Brexit is shallow.
Meaningless. How many of those who signed the petition are actually allowed to vote in any referendum. One could just as easily point out that Remain parties got less than half the number of votes that were cast for Leave in the referendum. It is an equally meaningless statistic.
> The figures behind that post-election Ashcroft poll are really fascinating, and explains a lot about the result. And perhaps why pollsters got the result wrong.
>
> It suggests turnout among ABs was at general election level of 70%, whereas among everyone else it was under a third, with C2s really under-performing; white van man didn't come out to vote.
>
> I've checked a few constituency demographics and it tallys well with reported turnout. This in itself pretty much completely explains the turnout differential between Remain and Leave constituencies. I understand now why my polling station had crap turnout.
>
> What it does mean is that this election is the most Remainy it gets, a future General election or Referendum will contain far more strongly leave demographics.
Will this EU election be remembered as REMAINS last stand?
> > @Richard_Tyndall said:
> > > @OblitusSumMe said:
> > > > @Richard_Tyndall said:
> > > >
> > > > The crisis is caused by the Remainer delusions. They still think that overturning a democratic vote is a viable way of settling the issue.
> > >
> > > This crisis has been made by Leavers not willing to vote for compromise and not willing to take responsibility for the Brexit they campaigned for - instead trying to insist that Remainers impose Brexit on them so that they can continue to cry betrayal.
> > >
> > > It is the most infantile behaviour I have ever seen.
> >
> > Someone else who has a problem with Maths. 27 morons from the ERG voted against the deal. If the Remainers in Parliament had supported it then it would have passed overwhelmingly. But of course they didn't because they were more interested in stopping Brexit than actually serving the country.
>
> 27 morons failed to vote for the deal. The opposition, however, performed the task they were given by their constituents (which is to oppose).
>
> It is not the job of anyone bar a conservative MP to vote for a policy / law being implemented by a conservative Government.
>
it was a policy that practically every MP in the Labour party was elected on. What price honour amongst Remainers?
> > @Richard_Tyndall said:
> > > @Cyclefree said:
> >
> > >
> > > I've already said that I could live with a soft Brexit. So no I am not an extremist. I want to avoid a No Deal Exit. If that is the option then I would prefer a referendum - because there is no mandate for a No Deal exit and it should get it.
> > >
> > > Frankly, there is no clarity and the parties are all at sea. We should take a long pause to work out exactly what we want - not just in relation to a transition - but also in relation to the final arrangement with the EU. We need as a nation to work out our strategy vis-a-vis the EU. I have argued for this many many times below and above the line.
> > >
> > > It won't happen. But if a minority insist on taking us out on a No Deal basis out of blind panic or because they are more interested in the fate of their party (and I fully accept that this is not your position) then I will support whatever will stop that. I am much more fearful of a No Deal exit and a Corbyn government than you are. Maybe I am wrong to think so. But that is my position: it has hardened in response to the behaviour of the ERG and others who have deliberately scuppered any attempt at compromise.
> >
> > If we do not leave then a Corbyn Government is absolutely guaranteed. So which do you fear more?
>
> In your black and white world maybe. In reality no party is likely to get a majority, and a Corbyn government will be a centre left rather than extreme left govt reigned in by other parties and the moderates within Labour.
What moderates? They will all have been purged.
> I saw the guardian headline that jezza now backed a second referendum, but when you read what he said it sounded very much same old, GE, if we dont get that, then a deal and if a deal, a public vote on it.
The referendum position that cried wolf
> > @Richard_Tyndall said:
> > > @Ishmael_Z said:
> > > > @glw said:
> > > > The crisis is caused by the Remainer delusions. They still think that overturning a democratic vote is a viable way of settling the issue.
> > > >
> > > > I've heard a ton of people advocate a People's Vote with the presumption that Remain will win. I don't think I've heard any one of them say what would happen next. They seem to share a delusion that it will put the EU issue to bed forever.
> > > Nothing would happen, because Remain is the default, and we could stop this divisive crap and disband the DexEU and get on with our lives. The EU issue can then put itself to bed or not as it pleases, because we will never ever ever ever have a referendum on it, or anything else, ever again. If you want to regard that as a dystopian vision of the boot of everyone who just wants to get on with their bloody lives stamping on the face of Therwilloftherpeople forever, be my guest.
> >
> > You really are deluded if you believe that. The world has changed and you can't put it back to the way you want it to be.
>
> Really Richard, it is beyond irony for anyone that is an advocate of Brexit, the deluded's most delusional project, to be accusing anyone of being deluded.
>
> the whole thing is a complete mess. the only person who is genuinely please is Vladimir. It reminds me of Black Sabbath's "War Pigs", "Satan laughing spreads his wings, oh Lord yea"
I don't know. I'm all in favour of Remaining, but I've concerns beyond number about counting chickens. If someone will guarantee that a second referendum will have such a majority that the Leavers will vanish, never to be seen again, all well and good.
I don't believe that will happen.
I think we've two 'tribes' in the UK; Remainers and Leavers and it's going to take a an event of Civil War proportions to get us back on track. In the 17thC Restoration of the monarchy needed the death of the architect of the Commonwealth, plus popular dissatisfaction with the current civic set-up to bring back the Monarchy.
I fear we're in a similar place.
Brexit, and nothing beyond that.
E.g. It implies 42% of those who voted were AB. AB are 22% of the population. 22% divided by 42% * 37% = ~70%. That's the same as a general election. Others much much lower.
As I said it fits based on reported local turnouts and those areas demographics.
https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1133078562305642498?s=20
> I saw the guardian headline that jezza now backed a second referendum, but when you read what he said it sounded very much same old, GE, if we dont get that, then a deal and if a deal, a public vote on it.
Well, while plenty of Labour people were mad at him before, plenty others were trying to convince the public it was already policy to referendum under any circumstances, so I'm not surprised he's still being evasive - they'll claim the policy is what they want regardless.
> > The people of Northern Ireland have made their views on the backstop absolutely clear. The Alliance party is non-sectarian and will have got a lot of its votes from middle class Protestants. Why not just give the Northern Irish the final say on the backstop and the border? It's them who will be affected by it, after all. If you do that, all the stuff about how appalling it is for NI to be treated differently etc just goes away.
Too late for that. The WA is dead in the eyes of too many Tories, and was never alive for Labour, it doesn't matter if the people of NI would accept it or not now.
> > @Richard_Tyndall said:
> > > @Ishmael_Z said:
> > > > @glw said:
> > > > The crisis is caused by the Remainer delusions. They still think that overturning a democratic vote is a viable way of settling the issue.
> > > >
> > > > I've heard a ton of people advocate a People's Vote with the presumption that Remain will win. I don't think I've heard any one of them say what would happen next. They seem to share a delusion that it will put the EU issue to bed forever.
> > > Nothing would happen, because Remain is the default, and we could stop this divisive crap and disband the DexEU and get on with our lives. The EU issue can then put itself to bed or not as it pleases, because we will never ever ever ever have a referendum on it, or anything else, ever again. If you want to regard that as a dystopian vision of the boot of everyone who just wants to get on with their bloody lives stamping on the face of Therwilloftherpeople forever, be my guest.
> >
> > You really are deluded if you believe that. The world has changed and you can't put it back to the way you want it to be.
>
> Really Richard, it is beyond irony for anyone that is an advocate of Brexit, the deluded's most delusional project, to be accusing anyone of being deluded.
>
> the whole thing is a complete mess. the only person who is genuinely please is Vladimir. It reminds me of Black Sabbath's "War Pigs", "Satan laughing spreads his wings, oh Lord yea"
Oh dear. Up pops Nigel with his fantasies. Some of us are trying to suggest solutions but you are still stuck in your own little world utterly divorced from reality.
> https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1133042173102952449?s=20
Jeremy Hunt = Why?
> Yes it's a survey of people who voted. I'm looking at the social grade columns, the poll isn't weighted by social grade so WYSIWYG.
>
> E.g. It implies 42% of those who voted were AB. AB are 22% of the population. 22% divided by 42% * 37% = ~70%. That's the same as a general election. Others much much lower.
>
> As I said it fits based on reported local turnouts and those areas demographics.
I see, thanks.
> > > @SouthamObserver said:
> > > The people of Northern Ireland have made their views on the backstop absolutely clear. The Alliance party is non-sectarian and will have got a lot of its votes from middle class Protestants. Why not just give the Northern Irish the final say on the backstop and the border? It's them who will be affected by it, after all. If you do that, all the stuff about how appalling it is for NI to be treated differently etc just goes away.
>
> Too late for that. The WA is dead in the eyes of too many Tories, and was never alive for Labour, it doesn't matter if the people of NI would accept it or not now.
They would always have accepted it with the backstop. No-one ever bothered asking them. It was not convenient to do so. That's how precious the Union really is to English politicians.
> > @AndyJS said:
> > "Labour pivots to support second EU referendum 'now' after election slump"
> >
> > https://news.sky.com/story/labour-pivots-to-support-second-eu-referendum-now-after-election-slump-11729708
>
> Given that they have just been hammered because large numbers of people did not trust them on Brexit, it’s quite remarkable that they can’t make their position clear and continue to use evasive words that only stoke mistrust in them.
It's not remarkable at all. They don't really want a second referendum or to remain but do want the votes of those who do. So they're trying to say enough to persuade them back into the Labour fold, at which point they will be ignored, as they have been for the last 3 years. Labour is led by someone who has been anti-EU all his life. His closest advisors have always been anti-EU all their lives.
What's remarkable is why people choose to believe otherwise.
> https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1133042173102952449?s=20
https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1133082159974166531?s=20
> What moderates? They will all have been purged.
>
> You seem to think you can get people to back what you want by threatening them with the consequences of not complying, whether it's a Corbyn government or the country being ravaged by an uprising of the Olden Hordes.
I am neither threatening anyone nor seeking their backing. I simply state the facts as I see them just as I have always done.
> @Sean_F said:
> On the face of it, it looks as though populist Right Wing parties did rather well.
>
> +++++++++++++
>
> The Eurosceptics (ENF/ECR/EFDD) and the Euroenthusisasts (ALDE/G) both did well, while the soggy rest (S&D, EPP) did appallingly.
Not in Spain!
> > @HYUFD said:
>
> > https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1133042173102952449
>
>
>
>
>
> Jeremy Hunt = Why?
>
> He's hoping to get through as the blandest candidate.
Theresa May V2. Great.
> I would be very hesitant to predict anything on the back of an election with half the turn out of the referendum and after basically no campaigning.
A five week old party advocating a no-deal Brexit beating its nearest rival by 12% in an election that very strongly favours Remain turnout is a straw in the wind though IMO...
> Which proves my point. For some people, the only thing that matters is to triumph over people that they despise. If it wasn't the EU, it would be abortion or the death penalty, or hunting.
>
> Climate Change is an issue already going in the same direction, the demands and language are getting increasingly extreme. I expect that it will become a very divisive issue in the years ahead.
LGBTQ issues is similar. Not just the muslim protests in birmingham, but lefty feminists vs trans activists is got extremely nasty.
> > @Nigel_Foremain said:
> > > @Richard_Tyndall said:
> > > > @Ishmael_Z said:
> > > > > @glw said:
> > > > > The crisis is caused by the Remainer delusions. They still think that overturning a democratic vote is a viable way of settling the issue.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've heard a ton of people advocate a People's Vote with the presumption that Remain will win. I don't think I've heard any one of them say what would happen next. They seem to share a delusion that it will put the EU issue to bed forever.
> > > > Nothing would happen, because Remain is the default, and we could stop this divisive crap and disband the DexEU and get on with our lives. The EU issue can then put itself to bed or not as it pleases, because we will never ever ever ever have a referendum on it, or anything else, ever again. If you want to regard that as a dystopian vision of the boot of everyone who just wants to get on with their bloody lives stamping on the face of Therwilloftherpeople forever, be my guest.
> > >
> > > You really are deluded if you believe that. The world has changed and you can't put it back to the way you want it to be.
> >
> > Really Richard, it is beyond irony for anyone that is an advocate of Brexit, the deluded's most delusional project, to be accusing anyone of being deluded.
> >
> > the whole thing is a complete mess. the only person who is genuinely please is Vladimir. It reminds me of Black Sabbath's "War Pigs", "Satan laughing spreads his wings, oh Lord yea"
>
> Oh dear. Up pops Nigel with his fantasies. Some of us are trying to suggest solutions but you are still stuck in your own little world utterly divorced from reality.
I think we can agree that Nigel’s fantasies, divorced from reality, are a problem for all of us.
Those of a PB poster, not so much.
> > @AlastairMeeks said:
> > > @AndyJS said:
> > > "Labour pivots to support second EU referendum 'now' after election slump"
> > >
> > > https://news.sky.com/story/labour-pivots-to-support-second-eu-referendum-now-after-election-slump-11729708
> >
> > Given that they have just been hammered because large numbers of people did not trust them on Brexit, it’s quite remarkable that they can’t make their position clear and continue to use evasive words that only stoke mistrust in them.
>
> It's not remarkable at all. They don't really want a second referendum or to remain but do want the votes of those who do. So they're trying to say enough to persuade them back into the Labour fold, at which point they will be ignored, as they have been for the last 3 years. Labour is led by someone who has been anti-EU all his life. His closest advisors have always been anti-EU all their lives.
>
> What's remarkable is why people choose to believe otherwise.
No one does. Hence the result last night.
> > @HYUFD said:
>
> > https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1133042173102952449
>
>
>
>
>
> Jeremy Hunt = Why?
>
> He's hoping to get through as the blandest candidate.
I think Hunt will win the first round but then face Portillo's fate in 2001 and be overtaken by both Boris and Gove in the subsequent rounds who will pick up most of Raab, Javid, McVey's support etc.
It could well then be a Boris v Gove final two sent to Tory members
> @Richard_Tyndall said:
> The crisis is caused by the Remainer delusions.
>
> @OblitusSumMe said:
> This crisis has been made by Leavers
>
> ++++++++++
>
> The crisis is made by both, obviously.
>
> The person for whom I have the most respect, in this whole crazy mess, is the MP for Eastbourne, Stephen Lloyd. A man willing to back a deal he felt was best for the country, even though it will cost him his career. The easy option for him would have been to be in favour of some unicorn, so he could say "Oh, I back Brexit, but not this Brexit." Instead he said, "Well, I may be a Remainer, but this is the right thing for the country." And he chose that path, even though it has resulted in the whip having been withdrawn, and it almost certainly means his deselection.
>
> Those (many) Labour MPs who profess to back Brexit, but who put Party over Country. You are part of the problem.
>
> Those (slightly fewer, but still numerous) Conservative MPs who see No Deal as achievable through suspending parliament and letting the clock run down. You too are part of the problem.
>
> I could go on.
I think A Meeks was right when he said it would cause trouble to have Remainers vote for a Brexit opposed by Leavers. They can insist that we have a deal, but I don't think they can force a specific deal through that is opposed by Leavers.
Leavers have to vote for a deal. And they have to be realistic and realise that to make a deal it has to be something the other side - i.e. the EU - can live with. They seem stuck in their delusion that the EU oppresses us which prevents then from agreeing any deal with the EU.
Some day though.
* She seems mainly concerned about fuzzy rules being open to abuse by unscrupulious coaches, promoters, and sporting bodies.
UK, Lord Ashcroft poll:
LAB-S&D: 21% (-20)
CON-ECR: 18% (-26)
BREX-EFDD: 18% (+18)
LDEM-ALDE: 17% (+10)
GREENS-G/EFA: 7% (+5)
ChUK-ALDE: 4% (+4)
UKIP-ENF: 3% (+1)
+/- 2017 Election
Field work: 23-24 May 2019
Sample size: 10,000
Skybet have already settled with no fuss.
> https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1133075869583532038?s=20
>
> https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1133078562305642498?s=20
And LDs and Brexit Party are middle aged
> Bit annoyed with Ladbrokes who have settled the losing bets in the EU Parliamentary elections but are prevaricating on paying out on the winning ones, despite the final results being known for a few hours now.
>
> Skybet have already settled with no fuss.
Betfair are holding out on the vote share markets for no obvious reason.
> > @rcs1000 said:
> > @Richard_Tyndall said:
> > The crisis is caused by the Remainer delusions.
> >
> > @OblitusSumMe said:
> > This crisis has been made by Leavers
> >
> > ++++++++++
> >
> > The crisis is made by both, obviously.
> >
> > The person for whom I have the most respect, in this whole crazy mess, is the MP for Eastbourne, Stephen Lloyd. A man willing to back a deal he felt was best for the country, even though it will cost him his career. The easy option for him would have been to be in favour of some unicorn, so he could say "Oh, I back Brexit, but not this Brexit." Instead he said, "Well, I may be a Remainer, but this is the right thing for the country." And he chose that path, even though it has resulted in the whip having been withdrawn, and it almost certainly means his deselection.
> >
> > Those (many) Labour MPs who profess to back Brexit, but who put Party over Country. You are part of the problem.
> >
> > Those (slightly fewer, but still numerous) Conservative MPs who see No Deal as achievable through suspending parliament and letting the clock run down. You too are part of the problem.
> >
> > I could go on.
>
> I think A Meeks was right when he said it would cause trouble to have Remainers vote for a Brexit opposed by Leavers. They can insist that we have a deal, but I don't think they can force a specific deal through that is opposed by Leavers.
>
> Leavers have to vote for a deal. And they have to be realistic and realise that to make a deal it has to be something the other side - i.e. the EU - can live with. They seem stuck in their delusion that the EU oppresses us which prevents then from agreeing any deal with the EU.
Equating No Dealers with the majority of Leavers either inside or outside Parliament is another dishonest tactic. I do not claim that all Remainers are federalists like Williamglenn. Both are equally disingenuous claims.
The populist EFDD group may not continue as it lacks parties from sufficient member states. Not clear what Farage and Five star from Italy will do instead - will they struggle on together and try to form a new group with various stragglers and independents or will Farage join the soft eurosceptic ECR with Hannan and the other 3 Tories? It matters as being in a group brings in the cash.
It’s unlikely Farage will be a group leader anymore so won’t be doing his grandstanding speeches at the plenary sessions against the Commission etc. I am sure they will be disappointed!
> > @kle4 said:
> > > @HYUFD said:
> >
> > > https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1133042173102952449
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Jeremy Hunt = Why?
> >
> > He's hoping to get through as the blandest candidate.
>
> I think Hunt will win the first round but then face Portillo's fate in 2001 and be overtaken by both Boris and Gove in the subsequent rounds who will pick up most of Raab, Javid, McVey's support etc.
>
> It could well then be a Boris v Gove final two sent to Tory members
Two votes for Gove from us
> https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1133084631585218560?s=20
In theory no. But in practice everything is on hold now until Con have elected a new leader.
In her resignation speech May acknowledged she'd failed and new leadership was needed to move things forwards.
> Flavible Politics projection of the Ashcroft poll has Ken Clarke being ousted by the Brexit Party. That is all.
A classic example of the limitations of this sort of modelling.
https://twitter.com/barrystanton44/status/1133032494440374274?s=21
https://twitter.com/skybethelp/status/1133036095581691904?s=21
The personal touch
> https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1133087128424984579?s=20
Something May should have done on Day 1
Did I mention I'm backing Gove.
https://twitter.com/WMLabour/status/1132969632137142272
Remain only just beat no deal yesterday
> https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1133087128424984579
>
>
>
> Pure Osbornism that is.
>
> Did I mention I'm backing Gove.
You, me and my good lady join you TSE
> I am neither threatening anyone nor seeking their backing. I simply state the facts as I see them just as I have always done.
>
> As you see it, there will be a terrible, terrible reckoning unless the world falls into line with your view of things.
As I have said before my view of things was already defeated right back at the start of the post referendum era. It is fanatics like you who have brought us to this sorry state.
> Anyone else shocked by this?
>
> https://twitter.com/WMLabour/status/1132969632137142272
Any chance that by "go home, you lost!", they meant to stop the partisan ranting - where she called them all fascists - and actually, err, to just stop talking, and go home?
> Anyone else shocked by this?
>
> https://twitter.com/WMLabour/status/1132969632137142272
Just totally unacceptable
> I think the final two will be Gove vs one of Javid or Hunt. The rest are too transfer unfriendly, Boris especially so.
My book would like Hunt in the final two.
Javid is just too dull.
Still makes Brexit 50 vs remain 46?
> > @HYUFD said:
>
> > https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1133087128424984579
>
>
>
>
>
> Something May should have done on Day 1
>
> To help with the numbers for EURef2?
It is immaterial what effect it has on the Loser's Vote. Just like with Gina Miller's case, if it is the right thing to do then it should be supported irrespective of whether it works against my side or not. You should never sacrifice your basic principles for political expediency.
> > @brendan16 said:
> > > @ah009 said:
> > > > @StuartDickson said:
> > > > > @kle4 said:
> > > > > Theresa May can be criticised for many things but she tried her utmost to deliver a meaningful Brexit.
> > > > >
> > > > > Quite. Badly, and she failed, but she tried.
> > > >
> > > > Eddie the Eagle “tried” being a ski jumper. He failed. But it was a great comic act.
> > >
> > > Difference is, Eddie knew when to jump. May had to be pushed.
> >
> > It depends where you think the Tories future lies. Barwell was looking at things from the perspective of winning back Croydon - Bradley from the perspective of retaining Mansfield.
> >
> > Its the same problem Labour has - how do you keep London and the north/midlands on board? There is such a massive dislocation now in England between (inner) London and the university towns and everywhere else. How do they bridge that gap - when by definition the media/most MPs is so London centric - cos thats where they live.
>
> It's not a new problem. This is what's been going on in Scotland for years. There' are only three possible futures:
> 1. Federalism, and here I mean not just the four nations but regions.
> 2. Proportional representation (my favoured option)
> 3. Disintegrations (the default if 1. or 2. can't be agreed)
>
> The main opposition to the first two will be the Conservative and Unionist Party, thus they will be the ones to deliver number 3. Unless they can be swept out of the way
When the Union fails it will be thanks to the efforts of the Conservative and Unionist Party. The auld Unionist Party should never have chucked in the towel in the 1960s. That was the beginning of the end.
> > @Casino_Royale said:
> > Bit annoyed with Ladbrokes who have settled the losing bets in the EU Parliamentary elections but are prevaricating on paying out on the winning ones, despite the final results being known for a few hours now.
> >
> > Skybet have already settled with no fuss.
>
> Betfair are holding out on the vote share markets for no obvious reason.
Also annoying.
Perhaps they now have a strategy of holding onto winning punters money for as long as they can get away with?
> I think the final two will be Gove vs one of Javid or Hunt. The rest are too transfer unfriendly, Boris especially so.
Few if any Raab supporters will go to Javid or Hunt, same with McVey. Javid is also likely to go out before Boris, Gove, Hunt and Raab and see most of his support go to Gove or Boris or Raab and he does not get on with Hunt.
The only MPs transfers I can see Hunt getting in any numbers are from Hancock and Harper and they are too low to make a significant difference so I think Gove v Boris or Raab is more likely than Gove v Javid or Hunt.
> > @HYUFD said:
> > https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1133087128424984579?s=20
>
> Something May should have done on Day 1
Followed by endless media revelations about various criminals and layabouts being given British citizenship.
Things tend to be complicated in practice.
> https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1133084631585218560
>
>
>
> Legally, certainly not. But come on. It's no more likely to pass even with a 'confirmatory ballot', certainly when all her MPs would refuse to back her on the grounds that they are about to seek new leadership to avoid that very outcome.
According to Radio 4 this evening about 40 Labour MPs from Leave seats won by the Brexit Party last night have come out and refused to back EUref2 with a Remain option under any cirumstances. They could thus yet back the WA if Corbyn switches to EUref2 as Labour party policy rather than just a CU as previously and that would be enough when added onto the 286 who voted for the WA on MV3 to give it a majority finally with 326 votes.
Mike's had the same experience.
https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/1132948606565191680
Now you may say, and I know this is your line, that whatever flavour of leave is better than remain, but this is a disaster and you set the process in motion.
And you can't now blame the people who voted not to put us through this.
It's complex - the EU results are in essence 28 national elections with all the internal politics involved. In some places existing Governments did well, in others less so. In some areas the right and centre-right did well, in others the left and centre-left prospered.
Across the new EU Parliament, ALDE, the Greens, the ENF and the EFDD have all prospered with the main losers the EPP and S&D groups.
It's complex - here as well. I've never supported a second referendum even though it's LD policy and possibly now Labour policy. I'm opposed for three reasons:
1) As with others, I'm uncomfortable with the overturning of the 2016 EU Referendum vote without that vote being enacted.
2) The WA is 585 pages of legalese - how can such a document be put to the British people in a simple, clear and transparent way? Frankly I don't anyone to "simplify" it because it will be spun the way they want. How can we get a simple objective presentation of what is in the WA and what it would mean?
3) What would be on the ballot paper - options (Remain, Leave without the WA or Leave with the WA) or a more binary leave with the WA or leave without it. Neither option looks politically feasible or satisfactory and as others have said there is ample room for further rancour and potential for violence.
One of my reasons for wanting to leave the EU was opposition to the Single Market which I believe has done untold damage to the peripheral areas of Europe in the name of "economic co-operation". It's a Thatcherite instrument and I find it curious some of those wanting us out of the EU would be the strongest of her supporters yet find themselves opposed to a measure she supported and in many ways enabled. Much of the shape of the modern EU derives from the work of Baron Cockfield in the 1980s who was put into post by Margaret Thatcher to energise the internal economy of the then EEC.
I suppose it comes back to "unintended consequences" - what might have worked in a Europe dominated by the west and south became more difficult with enlargement post 1989.
I had to provide more evidence to get a blue badge for my elderly father and he had to at least pay a tenner to get one
Surely processing a citizenship application should cost the applicant more than a parking badge for the elderly and disabled?
Why not means test it like welfare and social care?
> > @kle4 said:
> > https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1133084631585218560
> >
> >
> >
> > Legally, certainly not. But come on. It's no more likely to pass even with a 'confirmatory ballot', certainly when all her MPs would refuse to back her on the grounds that they are about to seek new leadership to avoid that very outcome.
>
> According to Radio 4 this evening about 40 Labour MPs from Leave seats won by the Brexit Party last night have come out and refused to back EUref2 with a Remain option under any cirumstances. They could thus yet back the WA if Corbyn switches to EUref2 as Labour party policy rather than just a CU as previously and that would be enough when added onto the 286 who voted for the WA on MV3 to give it a majority finally with 326 votes.
Yeah, the problem is the 286 who voted for it last time are unlikely to all vote for it again in a final attempt by May!