> The tories are going to get destroyed on Thursday . She has openly stuck two fingers up to 17.4 million people . The electorate will not forgive them for this
>
> Next leader has to disavow May, Hammond and the other losers who have made this shit soup.
Wake up. It is fools who think that Brexit was a worthwhile foreign policy pursuit that have made the "shit soup" and wrecked the Tory Party's one USP: economic management. It is the ERG that have properly destroyed not only our international reputation, but the Tory Party as well. Putin sympathising traitors and worms the lot of them.
the May approach is leading to single figures in the polls. Suggest you are talking Barry White.
> @Nigel_Foremain said: > > @TGOHF said: > > The tories are going to get destroyed on Thursday . She has openly stuck two fingers up to 17.4 million people . The electorate will not forgive them for this > > > > Next leader has to disavow May, Hammond and the other losers who have made this shit soup. > > Wake up. It is fools who think that Brexit was a worthwhile foreign policy pursuit that have made the "shit soup" and wrecked the Tory Party's one USP: economic management. It is the ERG that have properly destroyed not only our international reputation, but the Tory Party as well. Putin sympathising traitors and worms the lot of them.
You clearly have no respect for the 17.4 million voters who voted to leave the European Union in the biggest democratic exercise in forty years and where told their decision would be implemented
> @kjohnw said: > The tories are going to get destroyed on Thursday . She has openly stuck two fingers up to 17.4 million people . The electorate will not forgive them for this
That is silly. The 17.4 million people did not vote for No Deal. 52% v 48% always indicated a compromise was needed. The Tories will be destroyed though, and is the fault of those that back a country damaging, Tory Party destroying unicorn called Brexit
> @Nigel_Foremain said: > > @Jonathan said: > > The Tory party has gone silly. I feel sorry for May and her successor. > > Depends who the successor is.
True, but it is a fundamentally split party. Impossible to lead from any meaningful position on Brexit. Anyone who would want to lead it now, would have to be doing it exclusivities for ego and personal aggrandisement, rather than what they might achieve.
> @TGOHF said: > The tories are going to get destroyed on Thursday . She has openly stuck two fingers up to 17.4 million people . The electorate will not forgive them for this > > Next leader has to disavow May, Hammond and the other losers who have made this shit soup.
And then what. The parliamentary maths do not change.
If this fails as is likely I expect Brexit will not happen
The markets (and their commissioned polls) are the reason most thought that Remain had won, for an hour after the polls closed.
Mr. Eagles, most MPs are like that. Hammond was today wibbling about no deal being unacceptable. The logical conclusion from that is either May's deal passes (seemingly unlikely) or we remain.
> > The tories are going to get destroyed on Thursday . She has openly stuck two fingers up to 17.4 million people . The electorate will not forgive them for this
> >
> > Next leader has to disavow May, Hammond and the other losers who have made this shit soup.
>
> Wake up. It is fools who think that Brexit was a worthwhile foreign policy pursuit that have made the "shit soup" and wrecked the Tory Party's one USP: economic management. It is the ERG that have properly destroyed not only our international reputation, but the Tory Party as well. Putin sympathising traitors and worms the lot of them.
You clearly have no respect for the 17.4 million voters who voted to leave the European Union in the biggest democratic exercise in forty years and where told their decision would be implemented
Fake news, the 1992 general election was the biggest democratic exercise in the last forty years.
While I'm sure those who remain supporters of the Prime Minister would urge a considered response to today's speech, the problem is the hold she has dug is simply too steep for her to extricate herself or her Government.
We are back, as we have been, to the Withdrawal Agreement which has been rejected three times since mid January. Commitments on workers' rights are welcome and to be fair Theresa May has always made that commitment while adding that commitment only lasts while she is Conservative leader.
I would guess those who see Britain's future as a low-tax low-regulation country would baulk at such commitments and would seek to overturn them if the opportunity presents itself and those looking to preserve the rights won via EU membership might not see a Johnson, Raab or Truss-led Conservative Party in too positive a light.
The other commitments are just icing on the cake and really are part of the future Political Declaration and again since it seems May has agreed to go once the WA is passed, her successor may wish to take a different direction in terms of the PD.
Thus is the Gordian Knot or Elephant Trap of all this - without an agreed WA, the route to No Deal (which is not unfavoured by some) is open and the clock ticks down to the end of October. The WA can't clear the Commons in its current form and the EU can't or won't renegotiate it. Everything else is obfuscation.
Why would choosing a different Conservative leader make any difference? Unless there's a surprising and sudden outbreak of unity (and poor election results can help unify) it won't. Whether the new leader actively supports a No Deal or passively via inertia doesn't matter.
> @Nigel_Foremain said: > > @kjohnw said: > > The tories are going to get destroyed on Thursday . She has openly stuck two fingers up to 17.4 million people . The electorate will not forgive them for this > > That is silly. The 17.4 million people did not vote for No Deal. 52% v 48% always indicated a compromise was needed. The Tories will be destroyed though, and is the fault of those that back a country damaging, Tory Party destroying unicorn called Brexit
The only reason it was 52% was because of the Jo Cox murder, leave would have won by a much bigger margin had that sad event not occurred . The media portrayed it as caused by Brexit extremists
> The tories are going to get destroyed on Thursday . She has openly stuck two fingers up to 17.4 million people . The electorate will not forgive them for this
>
> Next leader has to disavow May, Hammond and the other losers who have made this shit soup.
And then what. The parliamentary maths do not change.
If this fails as is likely I expect Brexit will not happen
If it doesn’t happen before the GE it will afterwards. When the Con party will be destroyed.
Next Con PM has to do Brexit - if that means getting thrown out for stopping payments then that is what will be required.
> @williamglenn said: > The ERG might think their best bet is defect to the Brexit Party, bring down the government and force an election while May is still in charge.
Those who defect will have the whip withdrawn and will not be conservative candidates at the GE
> @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > @williamglenn said: > > The ERG might think their best bet is defect to the Brexit Party, bring down the government and force an election while May is still in charge. > > Those who defect will have the whip withdrawn and will not be conservative candidates at the GE
That's the idea. They'd be Brexit Party candidates standing against Theresa May's Tories.
> @kjohnw said: > > @Nigel_Foremain said: > > > @TGOHF said: > > > The tories are going to get destroyed on Thursday . She has openly stuck two fingers up to 17.4 million people . The electorate will not forgive them for this > > > > > > Next leader has to disavow May, Hammond and the other losers who have made this shit soup. > > > > Wake up. It is fools who think that Brexit was a worthwhile foreign policy pursuit that have made the "shit soup" and wrecked the Tory Party's one USP: economic management. It is the ERG that have properly destroyed not only our international reputation, but the Tory Party as well. Putin sympathising traitors and worms the lot of them. > > You clearly have no respect for the 17.4 million voters who voted to leave the European Union in the biggest democratic exercise in forty years and where told their decision would be implemented
I don't have respect for fascist, immigrant hating tendencies even if 99% voted for them. So, no I have no respect for what was a deluded and stupid voting decision, anymore than I have respect for the socialist views of people who wish to give us Corbyn as PM. Note, I say the views. The people themselves may be otherwise perfectly pleasant individuals. I am not a politician so I have no axe to grind and I don't have to pretend I "respect" puerile and poorly informed opinions that damage the country, businesses and individuals.
> @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > @TGOHF said: > > The tories are going to get destroyed on Thursday . She has openly stuck two fingers up to 17.4 million people . The electorate will not forgive them for this > > > > Next leader has to disavow May, Hammond and the other losers who have made this shit soup. > > And then what. The parliamentary maths do not change. > > If this fails as is likely I expect Brexit will not happen
The democratic disengagement that will cause will permanently damage our country
Labour will always find some excuse to avoid having to commit to anything.
That's true but actually this could fly*. Lab get to determine the future agreement, vote on a 2nd Ref and then at the GE they can turn the temporary CU into their beloved permanent one.
*they will of course find a reason as you say to avoid having to commit.
> @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > @williamglenn said: > > The ERG might think their best bet is defect to the Brexit Party, bring down the government and force an election while May is still in charge. > > Those who defect will have the whip withdrawn and will not be conservative candidates at the GE
Will there even be a Conservative party at the next GE?
> @rpjs said: > > @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > > @williamglenn said: > > > The ERG might think their best bet is defect to the Brexit Party, bring down the government and force an election while May is still in charge. > > > > Those who defect will have the whip withdrawn and will not be conservative candidates at the GE > > Will there even be a Conservative party at the next GE?
> > The tories are going to get destroyed on Thursday . She has openly stuck two fingers up to 17.4 million people . The electorate will not forgive them for this
> >
> > Next leader has to disavow May, Hammond and the other losers who have made this shit soup.
>
> And then what. The parliamentary maths do not change.
>
> If this fails as is likely I expect Brexit will not happen
The democratic disengagement that will cause will permanently damage our country
> @Nigel_Foremain said: > > @kjohnw said: > > > @Nigel_Foremain said: > > > > @TGOHF said: > > > > The tories are going to get destroyed on Thursday . She has openly stuck two fingers up to 17.4 million people . The electorate will not forgive them for this > > > > > > > > Next leader has to disavow May, Hammond and the other losers who have made this shit soup. > > > > > > Wake up. It is fools who think that Brexit was a worthwhile foreign policy pursuit that have made the "shit soup" and wrecked the Tory Party's one USP: economic management. It is the ERG that have properly destroyed not only our international reputation, but the Tory Party as well. Putin sympathising traitors and worms the lot of them. > > > > You clearly have no respect for the 17.4 million voters who voted to leave the European Union in the biggest democratic exercise in forty years and where told their decision would be implemented > > I don't have respect for fascist, immigrant hating tendencies even if 99% voted for them. So, no I have no respect for what was a deluded and stupid voting decision, anymore than I have respect for the socialist views of people who wish to give us Corbyn as PM. Note, I say the views. The people themselves may be otherwise perfectly pleasant individuals. I am not a politician so I have no axe to grind and I don't have to pretend I "respect" puerile and poorly informed opinions that damage the country, businesses and individuals.
> @rpjs said: > > @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > > @williamglenn said: > > > The ERG might think their best bet is defect to the Brexit Party, bring down the government and force an election while May is still in charge. > > > > Those who defect will have the whip withdrawn and will not be conservative candidates at the GE > > Will there even be a Conservative party at the next GE?
There will always be a Conservative party, it’s like a fungal infection you cannot shift.
> The ERG might think their best bet is defect to the Brexit Party, bring down the government and force an election while May is still in charge.
Those who defect will have the whip withdrawn and will not be conservative candidates at the GE
I suspect Mr Glenn may be (quite reasonably) betting upon the ERG MPs not remotely thinking through the consequences of their actions!
If we do end up staying, it won't be because of Maria Miller or the Remainiacs, but because of the ERG, who made the impossible the enemy of the good enough.
> @kjohnw said: > > @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > > @TGOHF said: > > > The tories are going to get destroyed on Thursday . She has openly stuck two fingers up to 17.4 million people . The electorate will not forgive them for this > > > > > > Next leader has to disavow May, Hammond and the other losers who have made this shit soup. > > > > And then what. The parliamentary maths do not change. > > > > If this fails as is likely I expect Brexit will not happen > > The democratic disengagement that will cause will permanently damage our country
It looks like that is baked in no matter which side comes out on top, if indeed that happens
> @Nigel_Foremain said: > > @kjohnw said: > > > @Nigel_Foremain said: > > > > @TGOHF said: > > > > The tories are going to get destroyed on Thursday . She has openly stuck two fingers up to 17.4 million people . The electorate will not forgive them for this > > > > > > > > Next leader has to disavow May, Hammond and the other losers who have made this shit soup. > > > > > > Wake up. It is fools who think that Brexit was a worthwhile foreign policy pursuit that have made the "shit soup" and wrecked the Tory Party's one USP: economic management. It is the ERG that have properly destroyed not only our international reputation, but the Tory Party as well. Putin sympathising traitors and worms the lot of them. > > > > You clearly have no respect for the 17.4 million voters who voted to leave the European Union in the biggest democratic exercise in forty years and where told their decision would be implemented > > I don't have respect for fascist, immigrant hating tendencies even if 99% voted for them. So, no I have no respect for what was a deluded and stupid voting decision, anymore than I have respect for the socialist views of people who wish to give us Corbyn as PM. Note, I say the views. The people themselves may be otherwise perfectly pleasant individuals. I am not a politician so I have no axe to grind and I don't have to pretend I "respect" puerile and poorly informed opinions that damage the country, businesses and individuals.
The EU is just a club run for big corporations to enrich themselves and career politicians to dip their snouts in the trough with no care for the ordinary guy in the street . Open borders are just a method of importing cheap labour . Rejection of this overbloated undemocratic club is not being racist or facist
> @TOPPING said: > What a weight lifted off her shoulders, her body language has changed. That's what happens when you realise you are powerless and it is parliament which will decide Brexit, 2nd referendum and all.
Like when at school you had some big project or homework to do, and you left it too long and started it at 11pm the night before. Then after a couple of hours' work you realised you were doomed and a strange euphoria came over you. You fate was sealed but there was almost a sense of relief.
> @CarlottaVance said: > > @williamglenn said: > > > The ERG might think their best bet is defect to the Brexit Party, bring down the government and force an election while May is still in charge. > > > > Those who defect will have the whip withdrawn and will not be conservative candidates at the GE > > I suspect Mr Glenn may be (quite reasonably) betting upon the ERG MPs not remotely thinking through the consequences of their actions! > > If we do end up staying, it won't be because of Maria Miller or the Remainiacs, but because of the ERG, who made the impossible the enemy of the good enough.
I'd have voted for MV2 and MV3 (and posted on here that all Brexiteers should vote for MV2 and MV3) but attempting to tie her successor into a second referendum would mean I'd have to vote against MV4.
On topic, if this Greene fellow gets elected in Peterborough, he is very likey to be more prominent than the Leader himself. Not likely to remain cordial for long!
> The ERG might think their best bet is defect to the Brexit Party, bring down the government and force an election while May is still in charge.
Those who defect will have the whip withdrawn and will not be conservative candidates at the GE
I suspect Mr Glenn may be (quite reasonably) betting upon the ERG MPs not remotely thinking through the consequences of their actions!
If we do end up staying, it won't be because of Maria Miller or the Remainiacs, but because of the ERG, who made the impossible the enemy of the good enough.
> The ERG might think their best bet is defect to the Brexit Party, bring down the government and force an election while May is still in charge.
Those who defect will have the whip withdrawn and will not be conservative candidates at the GE
I suspect Mr Glenn may be (quite reasonably) betting upon the ERG MPs not remotely thinking through the consequences of their actions!
If we do end up staying, it won't be because of Maria Miller or the Remainiacs, but because of the ERG, who made the impossible the enemy of the good enough.
That is just not the case. Mrs May is to blame.
She created a deal without talking to her MPs that failed at every hurdle.
The EU is just a club run for big corporations to enrich themselves and career politicians to dip their snouts in the trough with no care for the ordinary guy in the street . Open borders are just a method of importing cheap labour . Rejection of this overbloated undemocratic club is not being racist or facist
Free movement within the EU was a concern of precisely nobody before 2004. We had a veto on expansion and unilaterally waived the transition period. It's throwing the baby out with the bathwater to blame the consequences of our own choices on the EU.
> @maaarsh said: > > @Stereotomy said: > > Also if the conventional wisdom is correct that many CON->TBP switchers actually are happy with May's deal and are just sending a message of frustration that we haven't left yet, I could see that speech bumping a few of them back to CON just on tone. > > > > By the way, those of you who said May's bizarre "MPs suck and this is all their fault" speech in March was good, compare and contrast with this one. > > If that really is the conventional wisdom, conventions need to be changed; she just killed any lingering chance of the Tories staying in double figures.
Yep, you're totally right, that's what I get for posting without taking the time to mentally digest the speech. The headline reporting on this is going to be "May offers 2nd referendum", and that'll put off CON->TBP switchers, not attract them back.
> @TGOHF said: > > @williamglenn said: > > > The ERG might think their best bet is defect to the Brexit Party, bring down the government and force an election while May is still in charge. > > > > Those who defect will have the whip withdrawn and will not be conservative candidates at the GE > > I suspect Mr Glenn may be (quite reasonably) betting upon the ERG MPs not remotely thinking through the consequences of their actions! > > If we do end up staying, it won't be because of Maria Miller or the Remainiacs, but because of the ERG, who made the impossible the enemy of the good enough. > > > @williamglenn said: > > > The ERG might think their best bet is defect to the Brexit Party, bring down the government and force an election while May is still in charge. > > > > Those who defect will have the whip withdrawn and will not be conservative candidates at the GE > > I suspect Mr Glenn may be (quite reasonably) betting upon the ERG MPs not remotely thinking through the consequences of their actions! > > If we do end up staying, it won't be because of Maria Miller or the Remainiacs, but because of the ERG, who made the impossible the enemy of the good enough. > > That is just not the case. Mrs May is to blame. > > She created a deal without talking to her MPs that failed at every hurdle. > > She should have been sacked months ago.
She spoke to her MPs. They (well 50-100 of them) demanded unicorns. She tried very hard to find some, but they don't seem easily available. She should have told them to grow up ages ago.
Well-written, well-delivered speech from May, but on substance not much has really changed that would get it passed. Brexiteers have more reason to vote against it, in order to block another referendum or a CU compromise, Labour didn't get the CU option they wanted.
Also bizarre that she refused to answer Peston's question, surely that'll totally undermine her strategy by sowing paranoia among MPs. And extremely negligent that no reporter bothered to ask what the options on the confirmatory referendum would be.
Yes I think you're right - it was the key question that Peston asked and by not answering it (another "legal" obligation, say) she will have given Lab an out.
What has changed, of course is the insurance required by Lab that a successor won't throw out whatever deal has been negotiated by May because parliament will be given a say over three key elements - nature of customs union (ie vote on a temporary one until the next GE so that if Lab wins they can convert it into a permanent one); shape, direction and content of the negotiations for the future agreement; and, of course, 2nd ref.
Which brings us back to Peston's question.
Honestly I don't really understand this aspect. Parliament can't bind future governments, I thought. Does that change just because the bill parliament passes says "No actually in this case we really are binding you"? Is there any precedent or statement from (presumably) the speaker saying that this could be done?
> @Ishmael_Z said: > > @Cyclefree said: > > > I don't know why the EC isn't investigating them. They should. But as I said I have not been particularly impressed with the EC's record. > > > > You may not have a problem with scrutiny. But TBP seems to. Saying in response to scrutiny "Why aren't you going after the other guy?" is pathetic. > Wrong; the absolutely fundamental principle underlying the rule of law, is that the law applies and is enforced exactly equally for all parties. Selective prosecution is discrimination and is illegal; do you regard it as "pathetic" when people of colour rightly complain that stop and search laws are applied disproportionately against them? >
One: this isn't a prosecution. It's an inquiry. Selective prosecution is not illegal and does not amount to discrimination. Prosecutors and regulatory authorities make decisions all the time about when to take action and when not and, provided the reasons for doing so are in compliance with the law and relevant guidelines and not arbitrary or taken for the wrong reasons, it is ok for an authority to go after X and not Y.
Two: discrimination for unjustified reasons is wrong. Making an inquiry of a newly established party to ensure that they are complying with the rules is not disproportionate because a new party with little or no experience may - and often is - more likely to make mistakes than an established one. It may also be necessary to go after established parties because they can be complacent and also make mistakes.
Three: deciding that your priority is X rather than Y, provided that assessment is made on reasonable justifiable grounds rather than arbitrary ones, is absolutely consistent with applying the law equally to all. Your example about black people complaining about the stop and search laws is consistent with this because in those cases there was no reasonable justifiable grounds for stopping them other than prejudice.
"Why don't you pick on him and not just me" is the cry of the child in the playground not of grown ups.
> @Stereotomy said: > Well-written, well-delivered speech from May, but on substance not much has really changed that would get it passed. Brexiteers have more reason to vote against it, in order to block another referendum or a CU compromise, Labour didn't get the CU option they wanted. > > Also bizarre that she refused to answer Peston's question, surely that'll totally undermine her strategy by sowing paranoia among MPs. And extremely negligent that no reporter bothered to ask what the options on the confirmatory referendum would be. > > Yes I think you're right - it was the key question that Peston asked and by not answering it (another "legal" obligation, say) she will have given Lab an out. > > What has changed, of course is the insurance required by Lab that a successor won't throw out whatever deal has been negotiated by May because parliament will be given a say over three key elements - nature of customs union (ie vote on a temporary one until the next GE so that if Lab wins they can convert it into a permanent one); shape, direction and content of the negotiations for the future agreement; and, of course, 2nd ref. > > Which brings us back to Peston's question. > > Honestly I don't really understand this aspect. Parliament can't bind future governments, I thought. Does that change just because the bill parliament passes says "No actually in this case we really are binding you"? Is there any precedent or statement from (presumably) the speaker saying that this could be done?
Parliament can't bind future <i>parliaments</i> which isn't quite the same thing.
The 'we' you refer to was Blair specifically, and the political class generally, both of which are far more pro-EU than the populace, and were also content to use the EU as a scapegoat. It's not entirely dissimilar to the approach the Lib Dems took the Coalition.
I am somewhat surprised by the apparently universal condemnation of May's new idea.
Still, at least she wasn't lying about it being bold.
Well-written, well-delivered speech from May, but on substance not much has really changed that would get it passed. Brexiteers have more reason to vote against it, in order to block another referendum or a CU compromise, Labour didn't get the CU option they wanted.
Also bizarre that she refused to answer Peston's question, surely that'll totally undermine her strategy by sowing paranoia among MPs. And extremely negligent that no reporter bothered to ask what the options on the confirmatory referendum would be.
Yes I think you're right - it was the key question that Peston asked and by not answering it (another "legal" obligation, say) she will have given Lab an out.
What has changed, of course is the insurance required by Lab that a successor won't throw out whatever deal has been negotiated by May because parliament will be given a say over three key elements - nature of customs union (ie vote on a temporary one until the next GE so that if Lab wins they can convert it into a permanent one); shape, direction and content of the negotiations for the future agreement; and, of course, 2nd ref.
Which brings us back to Peston's question.
Honestly I don't really understand this aspect. Parliament can't bind future governments, I thought. Does that change just because the bill parliament passes says "No actually in this case we really are binding you"? Is there any precedent or statement from (presumably) the speaker saying that this could be done?
Surely international treaties bind future Parliaments though, unless Parliament votes to unilaterally leave them?
That the above groups decide to vote against so quickly without time for any consideration of the detail or internal debate about how to try and make it work, speaks badly of all of them, it is all about the show and nothing about getting things done.
> @Morris_Dancer said: > Mr. Glenn, the problem is who 'we' is. > > The 'we' you refer to was Blair specifically, and the political class generally, both of which are far more pro-EU than the populace, and were also content to use the EU as a scapegoat. It's not entirely dissimilar to the approach the Lib Dems took the Coalition. > --------------
The Tory party voted unanimously in Parliament for EU expansion, and it was arguably the culmination of the most successful pieces of post-war foreign policy from a Conservative government that helped bring the Cold War to a peaceful conclusion.
Can you blame them? This madness has gone on far too long. Every week she clings on and redrafts the MV is another week Farage gets more voters to believe democracy is broken.
> @Nigel_Foremain said: > > @TGOHF said: > > The tories are going to get destroyed on Thursday . She has openly stuck two fingers up to 17.4 million people . The electorate will not forgive them for this > > > > Next leader has to disavow May, Hammond and the other losers who have made this shit soup. > > Wake up. It is fools who think that Brexit was a worthwhile foreign policy pursuit that have made the "shit soup" and wrecked the Tory Party's one USP: economic management. It is the ERG that have properly destroyed not only our international reputation, but the Tory Party as well. Putin sympathising traitors and worms the lot of them.
Insults aside, this is quite astute. Brexit has its own logic, though its not to my tastes. Conservatism has its own logic but again, not for me. What doesn't work is Conservative Brexit. It's the contradiction that's causing such sustained damage. Its also why Change is doomed. Their thesis is both change and stasis. It can't work.
We live in an era of pic n mix politics and wholesalers like the Tories are struggling. It's also why Brexit is floundering: the greatest wholesale melange of self contradiction in British political history.
There is only one solution I can see: PR. Iron out the contradictions by having more nuanced parties.
While TM is rightly derided for several of her banal and vacuous sound bites along the way, one which gets too little opprobrium is "I'm not going to give a running commentary." Therein lies the root of the problem. An utter failure to do anything at all to prepare the ground for compromise.
On the assumption the fourth attempt at getting the WA through the Commons fails and May resigns, what then for the new Prime Minister?
Presumably said individual will receive the same guidance about the economic consequences of leaving the EU without an agreed WA. They may choose to disregard this advice or they may not.
> @williamglenn said: > The ERG might think their best bet is defect to the Brexit Party, bring down the government and force an election while May is still in charge.
That probably has a decent chance of working, though it has the drawback of then having to take responsibility for everything that goes wrong as a result.
Everything about Brexit has turned on people not wanting to take responsibility for anything, so I doubt they would try to do so.
> @noneoftheabove said: > > @Scott_P said: > > https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1130874021120286723 > > That the above groups decide to vote against so quickly without time for any consideration of the detail or internal debate about how to try and make it work, speaks badly of all of them, it is all about the show and nothing about getting things done.
It does and TM can do no more. Time to go and sit back and watch a brexiteer come up against Parliament's deadlock
> @not_on_fire said: > Well-written, well-delivered speech from May, but on substance not much has really changed that would get it passed. Brexiteers have more reason to vote against it, in order to block another referendum or a CU compromise, Labour didn't get the CU option they wanted. > > Also bizarre that she refused to answer Peston's question, surely that'll totally undermine her strategy by sowing paranoia among MPs. And extremely negligent that no reporter bothered to ask what the options on the confirmatory referendum would be. > > Yes I think you're right - it was the key question that Peston asked and by not answering it (another "legal" obligation, say) she will have given Lab an out. > > What has changed, of course is the insurance required by Lab that a successor won't throw out whatever deal has been negotiated by May because parliament will be given a say over three key elements - nature of customs union (ie vote on a temporary one until the next GE so that if Lab wins they can convert it into a permanent one); shape, direction and content of the negotiations for the future agreement; and, of course, 2nd ref. > > Which brings us back to Peston's question. > > Honestly I don't really understand this aspect. Parliament can't bind future governments, I thought. Does that change just because the bill parliament passes says "No actually in this case we really are binding you"? Is there any precedent or statement from (presumably) the speaker saying that this could be done? > > Surely international treaties bind future Parliaments though, unless Parliament votes to unilaterally leave them?
Parliament can bind future governments. Treaties can too. It's only parliament that's sovereign.
> @stodge said: > On the assumption the fourth attempt at getting the WA through the Commons fails and May resigns, what then for the new Prime Minister? > > Presumably said individual will receive the same guidance about the economic consequences of leaving the EU without an agreed WA. They may choose to disregard this advice or they may not.
> @OblitusSumMe said: > > @williamglenn said: > > The ERG might think their best bet is defect to the Brexit Party, bring down the government and force an election while May is still in charge. > > That probably has a decent chance of working, though it has the drawback of then having to take responsibility for everything that goes wrong as a result. > > Everything about Brexit has turned on people not wanting to take responsibility for anything, so I doubt they would try to do so.
As I've been saying for ages, the constant lament of Brexiteers is:
"It's all someone else's fault!"
sadly for them, it isn't. It's theirs. Though I fully expect them to be tilting and windmills for decades to come.
> That the above groups decide to vote against so quickly without time for any consideration of the detail or internal debate about how to try and make it work, speaks badly of all of them, it is all about the show and nothing about getting things done.
It does and TM can do no more. Time to go and sit back and watch a brexiteer come up against Parliament's deadlock
G, it is impossible to polish a turd, best being honest and getting your opinion out immediately, nothing for them to vote for here, certainly nothing for SNP or Scotland. Time we were out of the asylum.
> @malcolmg said: > > @noneoftheabove said: > > > > @Scott_P said: > > > > https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1130874021120286723 > > > > > > > > That the above groups decide to vote against so quickly without time for any consideration of the detail or internal debate about how to try and make it work, speaks badly of all of them, it is all about the show and nothing about getting things done. > > > > It does and TM can do no more. Time to go and sit back and watch a brexiteer come up against Parliament's deadlock > > G, it is impossible to polish a turd, best being honest and getting your opinion out immediately, nothing for them to vote for here, certainly nothing for SNP or Scotland. Time we were out of the asylum.
Evening Malc. I think Brexit is lost and remaining in the EU must now be the best bet.
> @OldKingCole said: > > @TheScreamingEagles said: > > We're not going to leave are we... > > > > We are as a No Dealer succeeds Theresa May and says No Deal will be easy. > > > > It'll be such a shit show that we'll have Rejoined by 2030. > > It'll be a sorry sight though. Nothing to be proud of. As aberrant in historical terms as the Nazi era is in cultured Germany. > > PS NO, I'm not comparing a putative Brexit Britain with Nazi Germany. I mean that as the Germans are having to rebuild their reputation as a civilised nation, so the UK, or what by then will be left of it, will have to rebuild it's by then shattered reputation for sound government and stability.
Maggie did it in the 80's. We just need to find someone who can fit her shoes.
Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that no deal is fundamentally unachievable. The new PM will soon be appraised as to why it will be a disaster, and will come back to the same choice May has presented: the WA as negotiated or revoke.
> @malcolmg said: > > @noneoftheabove said: > > > > @Scott_P said: > > > > https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1130874021120286723 > > > > > > > > That the above groups decide to vote against so quickly without time for any consideration of the detail or internal debate about how to try and make it work, speaks badly of all of them, it is all about the show and nothing about getting things done. > > > > It does and TM can do no more. Time to go and sit back and watch a brexiteer come up against Parliament's deadlock > > G, it is impossible to polish a turd, best being honest and getting your opinion out immediately, nothing for them to vote for here, certainly nothing for SNP or Scotland. Time we were out of the asylum.
It amazes me that more Conservatives don't talk about the threat Brexit poses to the union. I know Davidson has been on mat leave, but she's back now and it's still not being highlighted. I genuinely think they think they can get away without having to make a really tough choice. As though the unexpectedly high Yes and Leave votes have taught them nothing at all.
Comments
The ERG were correct to try and remove her. They were ahead of the game.
> The Tory party has gone silly. I feel sorry for May and her successor.
Depends who the successor is.
> > @TGOHF said:
> > The tories are going to get destroyed on Thursday . She has openly stuck two fingers up to 17.4 million people . The electorate will not forgive them for this
> >
> > Next leader has to disavow May, Hammond and the other losers who have made this shit soup.
>
> Wake up. It is fools who think that Brexit was a worthwhile foreign policy pursuit that have made the "shit soup" and wrecked the Tory Party's one USP: economic management. It is the ERG that have properly destroyed not only our international reputation, but the Tory Party as well. Putin sympathising traitors and worms the lot of them.
You clearly have no respect for the 17.4 million voters who voted to leave the European Union in the biggest democratic exercise in forty years and where told their decision would be implemented
> The tories are going to get destroyed on Thursday . She has openly stuck two fingers up to 17.4 million people . The electorate will not forgive them for this
That is silly. The 17.4 million people did not vote for No Deal. 52% v 48% always indicated a compromise was needed. The Tories will be destroyed though, and is the fault of those that back a country damaging, Tory Party destroying unicorn called Brexit
> > @Jonathan said:
> > The Tory party has gone silly. I feel sorry for May and her successor.
>
> Depends who the successor is.
True, but it is a fundamentally split party. Impossible to lead from any meaningful position on Brexit. Anyone who would want to lead it now, would have to be doing it exclusivities for ego and personal aggrandisement, rather than what they might achieve.
Cue Boris.
> May’s lost the main Labour advocate of a second referendum.
>
> https://twitter.com/peterkyle/status/1130864730061639683
>
>
>
> He's misunderstood her speech. She is giving parliament the power to do all this.
Labour will always find some excuse to avoid having to commit to anything.
> The tories are going to get destroyed on Thursday . She has openly stuck two fingers up to 17.4 million people . The electorate will not forgive them for this
>
> Next leader has to disavow May, Hammond and the other losers who have made this shit soup.
And then what. The parliamentary maths do not change.
If this fails as is likely I expect Brexit will not happen
The markets (and their commissioned polls) are the reason most thought that Remain had won, for an hour after the polls closed.
Mr. Eagles, most MPs are like that. Hammond was today wibbling about no deal being unacceptable. The logical conclusion from that is either May's deal passes (seemingly unlikely) or we remain.
While I'm sure those who remain supporters of the Prime Minister would urge a considered response to today's speech, the problem is the hold she has dug is simply too steep for her to extricate herself or her Government.
We are back, as we have been, to the Withdrawal Agreement which has been rejected three times since mid January. Commitments on workers' rights are welcome and to be fair Theresa May has always made that commitment while adding that commitment only lasts while she is Conservative leader.
I would guess those who see Britain's future as a low-tax low-regulation country would baulk at such commitments and would seek to overturn them if the opportunity presents itself and those looking to preserve the rights won via EU membership might not see a Johnson, Raab or Truss-led Conservative Party in too positive a light.
The other commitments are just icing on the cake and really are part of the future Political Declaration and again since it seems May has agreed to go once the WA is passed, her successor may wish to take a different direction in terms of the PD.
Thus is the Gordian Knot or Elephant Trap of all this - without an agreed WA, the route to No Deal (which is not unfavoured by some) is open and the clock ticks down to the end of October. The WA can't clear the Commons in its current form and the EU can't or won't renegotiate it. Everything else is obfuscation.
Why would choosing a different Conservative leader make any difference? Unless there's a surprising and sudden outbreak of unity (and poor election results can help unify) it won't. Whether the new leader actively supports a No Deal or passively via inertia doesn't matter.
> > @kjohnw said:
> > The tories are going to get destroyed on Thursday . She has openly stuck two fingers up to 17.4 million people . The electorate will not forgive them for this
>
> That is silly. The 17.4 million people did not vote for No Deal. 52% v 48% always indicated a compromise was needed. The Tories will be destroyed though, and is the fault of those that back a country damaging, Tory Party destroying unicorn called Brexit
The only reason it was 52% was because of the Jo Cox murder, leave would have won by a much bigger margin had that sad event not occurred . The media portrayed it as caused by Brexit extremists
Next Con PM has to do Brexit - if that means getting thrown out for stopping payments then that is what will be required.
> The ERG might think their best bet is defect to the Brexit Party, bring down the government and force an election while May is still in charge.
Those who defect will have the whip withdrawn and will not be conservative candidates at the GE
> > @williamglenn said:
> > The ERG might think their best bet is defect to the Brexit Party, bring down the government and force an election while May is still in charge.
>
> Those who defect will have the whip withdrawn and will not be conservative candidates at the GE
That's the idea. They'd be Brexit Party candidates standing against Theresa May's Tories.
> > @Nigel_Foremain said:
> > > @TGOHF said:
> > > The tories are going to get destroyed on Thursday . She has openly stuck two fingers up to 17.4 million people . The electorate will not forgive them for this
> > >
> > > Next leader has to disavow May, Hammond and the other losers who have made this shit soup.
> >
> > Wake up. It is fools who think that Brexit was a worthwhile foreign policy pursuit that have made the "shit soup" and wrecked the Tory Party's one USP: economic management. It is the ERG that have properly destroyed not only our international reputation, but the Tory Party as well. Putin sympathising traitors and worms the lot of them.
>
> You clearly have no respect for the 17.4 million voters who voted to leave the European Union in the biggest democratic exercise in forty years and where told their decision would be implemented
I don't have respect for fascist, immigrant hating tendencies even if 99% voted for them. So, no I have no respect for what was a deluded and stupid voting decision, anymore than I have respect for the socialist views of people who wish to give us Corbyn as PM. Note, I say the views. The people themselves may be otherwise perfectly pleasant individuals. I am not a politician so I have no axe to grind and I don't have to pretend I "respect" puerile and poorly informed opinions that damage the country, businesses and individuals.
> > @TGOHF said:
> > The tories are going to get destroyed on Thursday . She has openly stuck two fingers up to 17.4 million people . The electorate will not forgive them for this
> >
> > Next leader has to disavow May, Hammond and the other losers who have made this shit soup.
>
> And then what. The parliamentary maths do not change.
>
> If this fails as is likely I expect Brexit will not happen
The democratic disengagement that will cause will permanently damage our country
*they will of course find a reason as you say to avoid having to commit.
> > @williamglenn said:
> > The ERG might think their best bet is defect to the Brexit Party, bring down the government and force an election while May is still in charge.
>
> Those who defect will have the whip withdrawn and will not be conservative candidates at the GE
Will there even be a Conservative party at the next GE?
Lol - May supporter claiming opponent is incompetent 😂
> > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
> > > @williamglenn said:
> > > The ERG might think their best bet is defect to the Brexit Party, bring down the government and force an election while May is still in charge.
> >
> > Those who defect will have the whip withdrawn and will not be conservative candidates at the GE
>
> Will there even be a Conservative party at the next GE?
Yes.
It’s after that is the question.
Will they ever take yes for an answer?
> > @kjohnw said:
> > > @Nigel_Foremain said:
> > > > @TGOHF said:
> > > > The tories are going to get destroyed on Thursday . She has openly stuck two fingers up to 17.4 million people . The electorate will not forgive them for this
> > > >
> > > > Next leader has to disavow May, Hammond and the other losers who have made this shit soup.
> > >
> > > Wake up. It is fools who think that Brexit was a worthwhile foreign policy pursuit that have made the "shit soup" and wrecked the Tory Party's one USP: economic management. It is the ERG that have properly destroyed not only our international reputation, but the Tory Party as well. Putin sympathising traitors and worms the lot of them.
> >
> > You clearly have no respect for the 17.4 million voters who voted to leave the European Union in the biggest democratic exercise in forty years and where told their decision would be implemented
>
> I don't have respect for fascist, immigrant hating tendencies even if 99% voted for them. So, no I have no respect for what was a deluded and stupid voting decision, anymore than I have respect for the socialist views of people who wish to give us Corbyn as PM. Note, I say the views. The people themselves may be otherwise perfectly pleasant individuals. I am not a politician so I have no axe to grind and I don't have to pretend I "respect" puerile and poorly informed opinions that damage the country, businesses and individuals.
You are a genuinely deeply deluded man.
> > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
> > > @williamglenn said:
> > > The ERG might think their best bet is defect to the Brexit Party, bring down the government and force an election while May is still in charge.
> >
> > Those who defect will have the whip withdrawn and will not be conservative candidates at the GE
>
> Will there even be a Conservative party at the next GE?
There will always be a Conservative party, it’s like a fungal infection you cannot shift.
> Does May not do the maths before these silly offers to the house ?
>
> Daft as a brush.
Who knew it would get this bad...
If we do end up staying, it won't be because of Maria Miller or the Remainiacs, but because of the ERG, who made the impossible the enemy of the good enough.
> > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
> > > @TGOHF said:
> > > The tories are going to get destroyed on Thursday . She has openly stuck two fingers up to 17.4 million people . The electorate will not forgive them for this
> > >
> > > Next leader has to disavow May, Hammond and the other losers who have made this shit soup.
> >
> > And then what. The parliamentary maths do not change.
> >
> > If this fails as is likely I expect Brexit will not happen
>
> The democratic disengagement that will cause will permanently damage our country
It looks like that is baked in no matter which side comes out on top, if indeed that happens
> > @kjohnw said:
> > > @Nigel_Foremain said:
> > > > @TGOHF said:
> > > > The tories are going to get destroyed on Thursday . She has openly stuck two fingers up to 17.4 million people . The electorate will not forgive them for this
> > > >
> > > > Next leader has to disavow May, Hammond and the other losers who have made this shit soup.
> > >
> > > Wake up. It is fools who think that Brexit was a worthwhile foreign policy pursuit that have made the "shit soup" and wrecked the Tory Party's one USP: economic management. It is the ERG that have properly destroyed not only our international reputation, but the Tory Party as well. Putin sympathising traitors and worms the lot of them.
> >
> > You clearly have no respect for the 17.4 million voters who voted to leave the European Union in the biggest democratic exercise in forty years and where told their decision would be implemented
>
> I don't have respect for fascist, immigrant hating tendencies even if 99% voted for them. So, no I have no respect for what was a deluded and stupid voting decision, anymore than I have respect for the socialist views of people who wish to give us Corbyn as PM. Note, I say the views. The people themselves may be otherwise perfectly pleasant individuals. I am not a politician so I have no axe to grind and I don't have to pretend I "respect" puerile and poorly informed opinions that damage the country, businesses and individuals.
The EU is just a club run for big corporations to enrich themselves and career politicians to dip their snouts in the trough with no care for the ordinary guy in the street . Open borders are just a method of importing cheap labour . Rejection of this overbloated undemocratic club is not being racist or facist
> What a weight lifted off her shoulders, her body language has changed. That's what happens when you realise you are powerless and it is parliament which will decide Brexit, 2nd referendum and all.
Like when at school you had some big project or homework to do, and you left it too long and started it at 11pm the night before. Then after a couple of hours' work you realised you were doomed and a strange euphoria came over you. You fate was sealed but there was almost a sense of relief.
Or was that just me?
> > @williamglenn said:
>
> > The ERG might think their best bet is defect to the Brexit Party, bring down the government and force an election while May is still in charge.
>
>
>
> Those who defect will have the whip withdrawn and will not be conservative candidates at the GE
>
> I suspect Mr Glenn may be (quite reasonably) betting upon the ERG MPs not remotely thinking through the consequences of their actions!
>
> If we do end up staying, it won't be because of Maria Miller or the Remainiacs, but because of the ERG, who made the impossible the enemy of the good enough.
Spot on
> https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1130874021120286723
I'd have voted for MV2 and MV3 (and posted on here that all Brexiteers should vote for MV2 and MV3) but attempting to tie her successor into a second referendum would mean I'd have to vote against MV4.
Surely she's gone too far this time.
She created a deal without talking to her MPs that failed at every hurdle.
She should have been sacked months ago.
> > @Stereotomy said:
> > Also if the conventional wisdom is correct that many CON->TBP switchers actually are happy with May's deal and are just sending a message of frustration that we haven't left yet, I could see that speech bumping a few of them back to CON just on tone.
> >
> > By the way, those of you who said May's bizarre "MPs suck and this is all their fault" speech in March was good, compare and contrast with this one.
>
> If that really is the conventional wisdom, conventions need to be changed; she just killed any lingering chance of the Tories staying in double figures.
Yep, you're totally right, that's what I get for posting without taking the time to mentally digest the speech. The headline reporting on this is going to be "May offers 2nd referendum", and that'll put off CON->TBP switchers, not attract them back.
> Maybe the next UK EU President should propose a statue of Andrew Bridgen in Brussels...
With Baker and Francois alongside.
No three conservatives have done more to sabotage their dream of brexit
> > @williamglenn said:
>
> > The ERG might think their best bet is defect to the Brexit Party, bring down the government and force an election while May is still in charge.
>
>
>
> Those who defect will have the whip withdrawn and will not be conservative candidates at the GE
>
> I suspect Mr Glenn may be (quite reasonably) betting upon the ERG MPs not remotely thinking through the consequences of their actions!
>
> If we do end up staying, it won't be because of Maria Miller or the Remainiacs, but because of the ERG, who made the impossible the enemy of the good enough.
>
> > @williamglenn said:
>
> > The ERG might think their best bet is defect to the Brexit Party, bring down the government and force an election while May is still in charge.
>
>
>
> Those who defect will have the whip withdrawn and will not be conservative candidates at the GE
>
> I suspect Mr Glenn may be (quite reasonably) betting upon the ERG MPs not remotely thinking through the consequences of their actions!
>
> If we do end up staying, it won't be because of Maria Miller or the Remainiacs, but because of the ERG, who made the impossible the enemy of the good enough.
>
> That is just not the case. Mrs May is to blame.
>
> She created a deal without talking to her MPs that failed at every hurdle.
>
> She should have been sacked months ago.
She spoke to her MPs. They (well 50-100 of them) demanded unicorns. She tried very hard to find some, but they don't seem easily available. She should have told them to grow up ages ago.
> https://twitter.com/KennyFarq/status/1130875672635891712
It does seem logical
> > @Cyclefree said:
>
> > I don't know why the EC isn't investigating them. They should. But as I said I have not been particularly impressed with the EC's record.
> >
> > You may not have a problem with scrutiny. But TBP seems to. Saying in response to scrutiny "Why aren't you going after the other guy?" is pathetic.
> Wrong; the absolutely fundamental principle underlying the rule of law, is that the law applies and is enforced exactly equally for all parties. Selective prosecution is discrimination and is illegal; do you regard it as "pathetic" when people of colour rightly complain that stop and search laws are applied disproportionately against them?
>
One: this isn't a prosecution. It's an inquiry. Selective prosecution is not illegal and does not amount to discrimination. Prosecutors and regulatory authorities make decisions all the time about when to take action and when not and, provided the reasons for doing so are in compliance with the law and relevant guidelines and not arbitrary or taken for the wrong reasons, it is ok for an authority to go after X and not Y.
Two: discrimination for unjustified reasons is wrong. Making an inquiry of a newly established party to ensure that they are complying with the rules is not disproportionate because a new party with little or no experience may - and often is - more likely to make mistakes than an established one. It may also be necessary to go after established parties because they can be complacent and also make mistakes.
Three: deciding that your priority is X rather than Y, provided that assessment is made on reasonable justifiable grounds rather than arbitrary ones, is absolutely consistent with applying the law equally to all. Your example about black people complaining about the stop and search laws is consistent with this because in those cases there was no reasonable justifiable grounds for stopping them other than prejudice.
"Why don't you pick on him and not just me" is the cry of the child in the playground not of grown ups.
> Well-written, well-delivered speech from May, but on substance not much has really changed that would get it passed. Brexiteers have more reason to vote against it, in order to block another referendum or a CU compromise, Labour didn't get the CU option they wanted.
>
> Also bizarre that she refused to answer Peston's question, surely that'll totally undermine her strategy by sowing paranoia among MPs. And extremely negligent that no reporter bothered to ask what the options on the confirmatory referendum would be.
>
> Yes I think you're right - it was the key question that Peston asked and by not answering it (another "legal" obligation, say) she will have given Lab an out.
>
> What has changed, of course is the insurance required by Lab that a successor won't throw out whatever deal has been negotiated by May because parliament will be given a say over three key elements - nature of customs union (ie vote on a temporary one until the next GE so that if Lab wins they can convert it into a permanent one); shape, direction and content of the negotiations for the future agreement; and, of course, 2nd ref.
>
> Which brings us back to Peston's question.
>
> Honestly I don't really understand this aspect. Parliament can't bind future governments, I thought. Does that change just because the bill parliament passes says "No actually in this case we really are binding you"? Is there any precedent or statement from (presumably) the speaker saying that this could be done?
Parliament can't bind future <i>parliaments</i> which isn't quite the same thing.
The 'we' you refer to was Blair specifically, and the political class generally, both of which are far more pro-EU than the populace, and were also content to use the EU as a scapegoat. It's not entirely dissimilar to the approach the Lib Dems took the Coalition.
I am somewhat surprised by the apparently universal condemnation of May's new idea.
Still, at least she wasn't lying about it being bold.
Anyway, I must be off.
> https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1130874021120286723
That the above groups decide to vote against so quickly without time for any consideration of the detail or internal debate about how to try and make it work, speaks badly of all of them, it is all about the show and nothing about getting things done.
> Mr. Glenn, the problem is who 'we' is.
>
> The 'we' you refer to was Blair specifically, and the political class generally, both of which are far more pro-EU than the populace, and were also content to use the EU as a scapegoat. It's not entirely dissimilar to the approach the Lib Dems took the Coalition.
>
--------------
The Tory party voted unanimously in Parliament for EU expansion, and it was arguably the culmination of the most successful pieces of post-war foreign policy from a Conservative government that helped bring the Cold War to a peaceful conclusion.
> May out on Sunday night.
It could be before
> > @TGOHF said:
> > The tories are going to get destroyed on Thursday . She has openly stuck two fingers up to 17.4 million people . The electorate will not forgive them for this
> >
> > Next leader has to disavow May, Hammond and the other losers who have made this shit soup.
>
> Wake up. It is fools who think that Brexit was a worthwhile foreign policy pursuit that have made the "shit soup" and wrecked the Tory Party's one USP: economic management. It is the ERG that have properly destroyed not only our international reputation, but the Tory Party as well. Putin sympathising traitors and worms the lot of them.
Insults aside, this is quite astute. Brexit has its own logic, though its not to my tastes. Conservatism has its own logic but again, not for me.
What doesn't work is Conservative Brexit. It's the contradiction that's causing such sustained damage. Its also why Change is doomed. Their thesis is both change and stasis. It can't work.
We live in an era of pic n mix politics and wholesalers like the Tories are struggling. It's also why Brexit is floundering: the greatest wholesale melange of self contradiction in British political history.
There is only one solution I can see: PR. Iron out the contradictions by having more nuanced parties.
Therein lies the root of the problem.
An utter failure to do anything at all to prepare the ground for compromise.
Presumably said individual will receive the same guidance about the economic consequences of leaving the EU without an agreed WA. They may choose to disregard this advice or they may not.
> The ERG might think their best bet is defect to the Brexit Party, bring down the government and force an election while May is still in charge.
That probably has a decent chance of working, though it has the drawback of then having to take responsibility for everything that goes wrong as a result.
Everything about Brexit has turned on people not wanting to take responsibility for anything, so I doubt they would try to do so.
> > @Scott_P said:
> > https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1130874021120286723
>
> That the above groups decide to vote against so quickly without time for any consideration of the detail or internal debate about how to try and make it work, speaks badly of all of them, it is all about the show and nothing about getting things done.
It does and TM can do no more. Time to go and sit back and watch a brexiteer come up against Parliament's deadlock
> Well-written, well-delivered speech from May, but on substance not much has really changed that would get it passed. Brexiteers have more reason to vote against it, in order to block another referendum or a CU compromise, Labour didn't get the CU option they wanted.
>
> Also bizarre that she refused to answer Peston's question, surely that'll totally undermine her strategy by sowing paranoia among MPs. And extremely negligent that no reporter bothered to ask what the options on the confirmatory referendum would be.
>
> Yes I think you're right - it was the key question that Peston asked and by not answering it (another "legal" obligation, say) she will have given Lab an out.
>
> What has changed, of course is the insurance required by Lab that a successor won't throw out whatever deal has been negotiated by May because parliament will be given a say over three key elements - nature of customs union (ie vote on a temporary one until the next GE so that if Lab wins they can convert it into a permanent one); shape, direction and content of the negotiations for the future agreement; and, of course, 2nd ref.
>
> Which brings us back to Peston's question.
>
> Honestly I don't really understand this aspect. Parliament can't bind future governments, I thought. Does that change just because the bill parliament passes says "No actually in this case we really are binding you"? Is there any precedent or statement from (presumably) the speaker saying that this could be done?
>
> Surely international treaties bind future Parliaments though, unless Parliament votes to unilaterally leave them?
Parliament can bind future governments. Treaties can too. It's only parliament that's sovereign.
> On the assumption the fourth attempt at getting the WA through the Commons fails and May resigns, what then for the new Prime Minister?
>
> Presumably said individual will receive the same guidance about the economic consequences of leaving the EU without an agreed WA. They may choose to disregard this advice or they may not.
Nothing changes !!!!!
> > @williamglenn said:
> > The ERG might think their best bet is defect to the Brexit Party, bring down the government and force an election while May is still in charge.
>
> That probably has a decent chance of working, though it has the drawback of then having to take responsibility for everything that goes wrong as a result.
>
> Everything about Brexit has turned on people not wanting to take responsibility for anything, so I doubt they would try to do so.
As I've been saying for ages, the constant lament of Brexiteers is:
"It's all someone else's fault!"
sadly for them, it isn't. It's theirs. Though I fully expect them to be tilting and windmills for decades to come.
> > @noneoftheabove said:
>
> > > @Scott_P said:
>
> > > https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1130874021120286723
>
>
>
> >
>
> > That the above groups decide to vote against so quickly without time for any consideration of the detail or internal debate about how to try and make it work, speaks badly of all of them, it is all about the show and nothing about getting things done.
>
>
>
> It does and TM can do no more. Time to go and sit back and watch a brexiteer come up against Parliament's deadlock
>
> G, it is impossible to polish a turd, best being honest and getting your opinion out immediately, nothing for them to vote for here, certainly nothing for SNP or Scotland. Time we were out of the asylum.
Evening Malc. I think Brexit is lost and remaining in the EU must now be the best bet.
> > @TheScreamingEagles said:
> > We're not going to leave are we...
> >
> > We are as a No Dealer succeeds Theresa May and says No Deal will be easy.
> >
> > It'll be such a shit show that we'll have Rejoined by 2030.
>
> It'll be a sorry sight though. Nothing to be proud of. As aberrant in historical terms as the Nazi era is in cultured Germany.
>
> PS NO, I'm not comparing a putative Brexit Britain with Nazi Germany. I mean that as the Germans are having to rebuild their reputation as a civilised nation, so the UK, or what by then will be left of it, will have to rebuild it's by then shattered reputation for sound government and stability.
Maggie did it in the 80's. We just need to find someone who can fit her shoes.
> https://twitter.com/tombradby/status/1130879958308597761
Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that no deal is fundamentally unachievable. The new PM will soon be appraised as to why it will be a disaster, and will come back to the same choice May has presented: the WA as negotiated or revoke.
This is an utter utter waste of time.
Is there no end to the bad news for our democracy?
>
> Not Monday. Now.
Will the statement in parliament tomorrow be the same 'nothing has changed' routine with her spending hours batting away the same questions?
> May needs to go on Monday.
>
> This is an utter utter waste of time.
>
> Not Monday. Now.
Monday is a bank holiday but I agree TM has run out of road and needs to go now
Everyone is telling her to do one.
> Last rights for remain - Brexit on Halloween under a new PM is on.
No it is not. Too many opposed to no deal
https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1130881766653403138
I think she’s lost it big time .
'Our Mid-East policy has been a partial success. We have succeeded in hammering a much-divided region into a hostile unanimity.'
> > @noneoftheabove said:
>
> > > @Scott_P said:
>
> > > https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1130874021120286723
>
>
>
> >
>
> > That the above groups decide to vote against so quickly without time for any consideration of the detail or internal debate about how to try and make it work, speaks badly of all of them, it is all about the show and nothing about getting things done.
>
>
>
> It does and TM can do no more. Time to go and sit back and watch a brexiteer come up against Parliament's deadlock
>
> G, it is impossible to polish a turd, best being honest and getting your opinion out immediately, nothing for them to vote for here, certainly nothing for SNP or Scotland. Time we were out of the asylum.
It amazes me that more Conservatives don't talk about the threat Brexit poses to the union. I know Davidson has been on mat leave, but she's back now and it's still not being highlighted. I genuinely think they think they can get away without having to make a really tough choice. As though the unexpectedly high Yes and Leave votes have taught them nothing at all.
> Oh dear May offering things that MPs could have added on in terms of amendments anyway.
>
> I think she’s lost it big time .
Looks like it but nothing changes - total deadlock