> @nico67 said: > John Mann is another northern Labour martyr MP. > > Always whining about the south . London pays more into the Treasury than it takes out . > > He’s also a Lexiter whose intent on enabling a right wing capitalism on steroids Brexit . If he thinks this is going to help his constituents he’s deluded .
Sorry to be pedantic*, but Bassetlaw is not the North. It is part of the East Midlands. The rest I broadly agree with.
> @Floater said: > > @ydoethur said: > > Only Medium and Small left now > > > > That's rather a disrespectful way of referring to Chuka and Heidi. > > Nothing medium or small about Chukas ego
You say that but Heidi Allen is leader which may be yet another own-goal. Presumably this was intended to attract more Conservative defectors but Chuka is their only star name and should be up front and centre.
Contrast this with the Brexit Party where you can hardly turn on the telly without seeing either Nigel Farage or Ann Widdecombe.
> An American journo interviews a couple of young Brits, presumably in N England, about Tommy Robinson. I like the first girl's casual but not inarticulate dismissal of him. She just laughs him off, as one should.
>
> However the second young guy is disturbing. He thinks that "no criticism of Islam should be allowed". Full stop. None.
>
------
Listen again. He does not say those words.
He does. He says "it's racist to criticise Islam full stop".
> @nico67 said: > John Mann is another northern Labour martyr MP. > > Always whining about the south . London pays more into the Treasury than it takes out . > > He’s also a Lexiter whose intent on enabling a right wing capitalism on steroids Brexit . If he thinks this is going to help his constituents he’s deluded .
Starmer is the sort of bloke who gets a nosebleed if he leaves London. The fact that London pays more to the treasury means fuck all,that's the type of thinking that eased Leave over the line and caused you to shit yer pants on here everyday.
> @brendan16 said: > > @HYUFD said: > > > > @AndyJS said: > > > > "Winning the wealthy and losing the workers: how Labor's Victorian vote transformed > > > > > > > > Results from Australia’s most progressive state show the party is at risk of losing its heartland" > > > > > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/may/19/winning-the-wealthy-and-losing-the-workers-how-labors-victorian-vote-transformed > > > > > > The Australian election was a reflection of what is happening across the western world, centre left parties losing skilled working class voters to conservatives but winning more graduate professionals from conservatives > > > > Indeed. But it seems like they often overestimate how many city-dwelling liberals there are, as we discussed yesterday, and tend to forget where the important marginals are located. > > Problem is the city dwelling liberals are all concentrated in their bubble and think everyone else thinks like them as they don’t engage outside their bubble and frankly sneer and look down on their supposed ‘inferiors’. Stupid, poorly educated, didn’t know what they were voting for and of course the final tactic when all else fails ‘racist’ > > Far from being open minded many are the exact opposite.
I wonder how much resentment fuels that attitude.
It must be hard for someone from a middle class background who has been to a top university to be massively in debt and renting a room in Walthamstow to know that factory workers in Mansfield own their homes.
> @another_richard said: > > @brendan16 said: > > > @HYUFD said: > > > > > > @AndyJS said: > > > > > > "Winning the wealthy and losing the workers: how Labor's Victorian vote transformed > > > > > > > > > > > > Results from Australia’s most progressive state show the party is at risk of losing its heartland" > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/may/19/winning-the-wealthy-and-losing-the-workers-how-labors-victorian-vote-transformed > > > > > > > > > > The Australian election was a reflection of what is happening across the western world, centre left parties losing skilled working class voters to conservatives but winning more graduate professionals from conservatives > > > > > > > > Indeed. But it seems like they often overestimate how many city-dwelling liberals there are, as we discussed yesterday, and tend to forget where the important marginals are located. > > > > Problem is the city dwelling liberals are all concentrated in their bubble and think everyone else thinks like them as they don’t engage outside their bubble and frankly sneer and look down on their supposed ‘inferiors’. Stupid, poorly educated, didn’t know what they were voting for and of course the final tactic when all else fails ‘racist’ > > > > Far from being open minded many are the exact opposite. > > I wonder how much resentment fuels that attitude. > > It must be hard for someone from a middle class background who has been to a top university to be massively in debt and renting a room in Walthamstow to know that factory workers in Mansfield own their homes.
> @williamglenn said: > > @Byronic said: > > > > An American journo interviews a couple of young Brits, presumably in N England, about Tommy Robinson. I like the first girl's casual but not inarticulate dismissal of him. She just laughs him off, as one should. > > > > However the second young guy is disturbing. He thinks that "no criticism of Islam should be allowed". Full stop. None. > > > ------ > Are > @williamglenn said: > > @Byronic said: > > > > An American journo interviews a couple of young Brits, presumably in N England, about Tommy Robinson. I like the first girl's casual but not inarticulate dismissal of him. She just laughs him off, as one should. > > > > However the second young guy is disturbing. He thinks that "no criticism of Islam should be allowed". Full stop. None. > > > ------ > > Listen again. He does not say those words. <
+++++
He literally says "it is racist to criticise Islam, full stop".
That's a blasphemy law, and a harsh one at that. That's the end of the Enlightenment. In one sentence.
Always whining about the south . London pays more into the Treasury than it takes out .
He’s also a Lexiter whose intent on enabling a right wing capitalism on steroids Brexit . If he thinks this is going to help his constituents he’s deluded .
I’m curious, was Tony Benn intent on enabling right wing capitalism on steroids when he campaigned against the Common Market?
> @MarqueeMark said: > > @another_richard said: > > > @brendan16 said: > > > > @HYUFD said: > > > > > > > > @AndyJS said: > > > > > > > > "Winning the wealthy and losing the workers: how Labor's Victorian vote transformed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Results from Australia’s most progressive state show the party is at risk of losing its heartland" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/may/19/winning-the-wealthy-and-losing-the-workers-how-labors-victorian-vote-transformed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Australian election was a reflection of what is happening across the western world, centre left parties losing skilled working class voters to conservatives but winning more graduate professionals from conservatives > > > > > > > > > > > > Indeed. But it seems like they often overestimate how many city-dwelling liberals there are, as we discussed yesterday, and tend to forget where the important marginals are located. > > > > > > Problem is the city dwelling liberals are all concentrated in their bubble and think everyone else thinks like them as they don’t engage outside their bubble and frankly sneer and look down on their supposed ‘inferiors’. Stupid, poorly educated, didn’t know what they were voting for and of course the final tactic when all else fails ‘racist’ > > > > > > Far from being open minded many are the exact opposite. > > > > I wonder how much resentment fuels that attitude. > > > > It must be hard for someone from a middle class background who has been to a top university to be massively in debt and renting a room in Walthamstow to know that factory workers in Mansfield own their homes. > > So move to Mansfield.....
> @MarqueeMark said: > > @another_richard said: > > > @brendan16 said: > > > > @HYUFD said: > > > > > > > > @AndyJS said: > > > > > > > > "Winning the wealthy and losing the workers: how Labor's Victorian vote transformed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Results from Australia’s most progressive state show the party is at risk of losing its heartland" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/may/19/winning-the-wealthy-and-losing-the-workers-how-labors-victorian-vote-transformed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Australian election was a reflection of what is happening across the western world, centre left parties losing skilled working class voters to conservatives but winning more graduate professionals from conservatives > > > > > > > > > > > > Indeed. But it seems like they often overestimate how many city-dwelling liberals there are, as we discussed yesterday, and tend to forget where the important marginals are located. > > > > > > Problem is the city dwelling liberals are all concentrated in their bubble and think everyone else thinks like them as they don’t engage outside their bubble and frankly sneer and look down on their supposed ‘inferiors’. Stupid, poorly educated, didn’t know what they were voting for and of course the final tactic when all else fails ‘racist’ > > > > > > Far from being open minded many are the exact opposite. > > > > I wonder how much resentment fuels that attitude. > > > > It must be hard for someone from a middle class background who has been to a top university to be massively in debt and renting a room in Walthamstow to know that factory workers in Mansfield own their homes. > > So move to Mansfield.....
That would mean admitting they failed in London and accepting they weren't as talented as they thought they were.
Many would rather wallow in resentment and look for others to blame.
Always whining about the south . London pays more into the Treasury than it takes out .
He’s also a Lexiter whose intent on enabling a right wing capitalism on steroids Brexit . If he thinks this is going to help his constituents he’s deluded .
LOL another load of London bollox of how they make all the money. You need to learn to read son or at least ask your Dad.
> @malcolmg said: > John Mann is another northern Labour martyr MP. > > > > Always whining about the south . London pays more into the Treasury than it takes out . > > > > He’s also a Lexiter whose intent on enabling a right wing capitalism on steroids Brexit . If he thinks this is going to help his constituents he’s deluded . > > LOL another load of London bollox of how they make all the money. You need to learn to read son or at least ask your Dad.
> > > The Australian election was a reflection of what is happening across the western world, centre left parties losing skilled working class voters to conservatives but winning more graduate professionals from conservatives
> >
> >
> >
> > Indeed. But it seems like they often overestimate how many city-dwelling liberals there are, as we discussed yesterday, and tend to forget where the important marginals are located.
> >
> > Problem is the city dwelling liberals are all concentrated in their bubble and think everyone else thinks like them as they don’t engage outside their bubble and frankly sneer and look down on their supposed ‘inferiors’. Stupid, poorly educated, didn’t know what they were voting for and of course the final tactic when all else fails ‘racist’
> >
> > Far from being open minded many are the exact opposite.
>
> I wonder how much resentment fuels that attitude.
>
> It must be hard for someone from a middle class background who has been to a top university to be massively in debt and renting a room in Walthamstow to know that factory workers in Mansfield own their homes.
> @noneoftheabove said: > > > There are lots of ways, they just require some thought. Here is one, offer Labour a referendum on Tory deal vs Labour deal and give Labour access to the civil service and EU negotiators to firm up their deal. This breaks the Labour obfuscation, and would be as hard to refuse as the offer of a general election was in 2017. Given there is little difference between the two potential deals it doesnt matter which side wins that referendum. > > > > > > If it was refused it forces Labour into an outright remain position which might give the votes of the Labour leave MPs needed for the Tory deal, and make those MPs more vulnerable at the next election. > > > > Barely any Tory MPs will vote for any Deal with a referendum attached, nor will a number of Labour MPs from Leave seats either. As the indicative votes showed more voted for May's Deal last time than for Deal plus confirmatory referendum > > Why would any MPs who want Brexit not vote for a referendum between Tory Brexit and Labour Brexit? They are virtually identical, apart from each party cannot be seen to support the other one.
As it would never get a majority given MPs who want a No Deal Brexit and MPs who want a referendum with a Remain option would vote it down
> @GIN1138 said: > > @logical_song said: > > > @justin124 said: > > > > @GIN1138 said: > > > > In the EU elections do we vote in order of preference? Or do we just vote for one party? > > > > > > Just one party. > > > > Which is why it's not a good system, STV is much better. > > Was in order of preference in 1999 wasn't it? That one was entirely by post as well I think? > > I'm sure I remember my grandmother receiving a huge ballot paper in the post with an assortment of different parties and being totally befuddled what she was supposed to do with it...
Anyone who can learn how to pay with decimal currency after using LSD for half their life, can learn how to put a 1 next to their favourite party, and may be even a 2 next to their second favourite...
> @Luckyguy1983 said: > Here's why I think Leadsom. Committed Brexiter but worked within the Government to see the result through, not a wrecker. Comes over very well in interviews, and in speeches, has a sense of humour. Has performed well in each role that she has been given. Understands business having worked in the corporate banking sector (although most here claim she actually cleaned the loos). Enough said really. I don't see any other candidate with anything like that combination of qualifications. I don't see how Farage would attack her either. ______________
I buy this. Leadsom is about the only Brexiteer that hasn't crashed and burnt since the referendum. Mainly by not having much to do with Brexit it had to be said, but the fact remains. She is as tough as nails. Farage won't be able to walk over her. She might be able to get Brexit through, even if the uplands will stay firmly in the shadows.
> @kle4 said: > > @kle4 said: > > > May led Tories led by 2%, exactly the same margin Morrison's Coalition leads on 2 PP over Labour this morning with most votes counted. > > > > > > > > > > > > As Opinium this morning showed there has now been a clear shift in favour of No Deal, more voters prefer No Deal to either EUref2 or Revoke and extension combined > > > > > > I remain confused as to why that means Boris, who cannot deliver no deal, will be able to hold onto those leads to the point of thinking he can win an election off the back of it. We failed (again), vote for us? > > > > If Boris takes over if May and her Deal fail again then it is simple, if he wins a majority on a manifesto commitment for No Deal then it is No Deal and maybe try and renegotiate with a technical solution replacing the backstop for a Canada style FTA after that election is won. > > It's the 'if he wins' bit I have issue with. Why will that happen? Unless no deal support is distributed perfectly for Tory seats their voting coalition will collapse backing a no deal, as a whole bunch of Tory remainers won't vote them and they need to hope for enough Labour no dealers to back them to make up for it in the right places.
400 seats voted Leave, just 200 voted Remain.
There are more Labour seats that voted Leave than Tory seats that voted Remain and given the vast majority of Tory and Brexit Party voters voted Leave bringing that coalition back together is vital if the Tories are to retain power
> @another_richard said: > > @brendan16 said: > > > @HYUFD said: > > > > > > @AndyJS said: > > > > > > "Winning the wealthy and losing the workers: how Labor's Victorian vote transformed > > > > > > > > > > > > Results from Australia’s most progressive state show the party is at risk of losing its heartland" > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/may/19/winning-the-wealthy-and-losing-the-workers-how-labors-victorian-vote-transformed > > > > > > > > > > The Australian election was a reflection of what is happening across the western world, centre left parties losing skilled working class voters to conservatives but winning more graduate professionals from conservatives > > > > > > > > Indeed. But it seems like they often overestimate how many city-dwelling liberals there are, as we discussed yesterday, and tend to forget where the important marginals are located. > > > > Problem is the city dwelling liberals are all concentrated in their bubble and think everyone else thinks like them as they don’t engage outside their bubble and frankly sneer and look down on their supposed ‘inferiors’. Stupid, poorly educated, didn’t know what they were voting for and of course the final tactic when all else fails ‘racist’ > > > > Far from being open minded many are the exact opposite. > > I wonder how much resentment fuels that attitude. > > It must be hard for someone from a middle class background who has been to a top university to be massively in debt and renting a room in Walthamstow to know that factory workers in Mansfield own their homes.
Indeed, a plumber who owns a semi detached property in the Midlands is now far more likely to vote Tory than an arts graduate who rents in London
> @williamglenn said: > > @MaxPB said: > > > > He does. He says "it's racist to criticise Islam full stop". > > He doesn't say it shouldn't be "allowed".
Among young people today doesn't [anything bad] pretty much equate to "it shouldn't be allowed"?
> @eristdoof said: > > @GIN1138 said: > > > @logical_song said: > > > > @justin124 said: > > > > > @GIN1138 said: > > > > > In the EU elections do we vote in order of preference? Or do we just vote for one party? > > > > > > > > Just one party. > > > > > > Which is why it's not a good system, STV is much better. > > > > Was in order of preference in 1999 wasn't it? That one was entirely by post as well I think? > > > > I'm sure I remember my grandmother receiving a huge ballot paper in the post with an assortment of different parties and being totally befuddled what she was supposed to do with it... > > Anyone who can learn how to pay with decimal currency after using LSD for half their life, can learn how to put a 1 next to their favourite party, and may be even a 2 next to their second favourite...
Well she won't need to now because she died last year at 94...
> @another_richard said: > > @MarqueeMark said: > > > @another_richard said: > > > > @brendan16 said: > > > > > @HYUFD said: > > > > > > > > > > @AndyJS said: > > > > > > > > > > "Winning the wealthy and losing the workers: how Labor's Victorian vote transformed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Results from Australia’s most progressive state show the party is at risk of losing its heartland" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/may/19/winning-the-wealthy-and-losing-the-workers-how-labors-victorian-vote-transformed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Australian election was a reflection of what is happening across the western world, centre left parties losing skilled working class voters to conservatives but winning more graduate professionals from conservatives > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Indeed. But it seems like they often overestimate how many city-dwelling liberals there are, as we discussed yesterday, and tend to forget where the important marginals are located. > > > > > > > > Problem is the city dwelling liberals are all concentrated in their bubble and think everyone else thinks like them as they don’t engage outside their bubble and frankly sneer and look down on their supposed ‘inferiors’. Stupid, poorly educated, didn’t know what they were voting for and of course the final tactic when all else fails ‘racist’ > > > > > > > > Far from being open minded many are the exact opposite. > > > > > > I wonder how much resentment fuels that attitude. > > > > > > It must be hard for someone from a middle class background who has been to a top university to be massively in debt and renting a room in Walthamstow to know that factory workers in Mansfield own their homes. > > > > So move to Mansfield..... > > That would mean admitting they failed in London and accepting they weren't as talented as they thought they were. > > Many would rather wallow in resentment and look for others to blame.
Do talented people live in London? The less talented elsewhere?
> @FF43 said: > > @Luckyguy1983 said: > > Here's why I think Leadsom. Committed Brexiter but worked within the Government to see the result through, not a wrecker. Comes over very well in interviews, and in speeches, has a sense of humour. Has performed well in each role that she has been given. Understands business having worked in the corporate banking sector (although most here claim she actually cleaned the loos). Enough said really. I don't see any other candidate with anything like that combination of qualifications. I don't see how Farage would attack her either. > ______________ > > I buy this. Leadsom is about the only Brexiteer that hasn't crashed and burnt since the referendum. Mainly by not having much to do with Brexit it had to be said, but the fact remains. She is as tough as nails. Farage won't be able to walk over her. She might be able to get Brexit through, even if the uplands will stay firmly in the shadows. >
And don't forget she has an IQ of 207. (Though admittedly that's partly because she was the one who invented the concept of IQ testing in the first place, and designed the tests.)
Worth remembering leaders can surprise on the upside (Julian the Apostate and Titus Manlius Torquatus stand out. The latter was effectively exiled by his obnoxious father for having a speech impediment, and returned to Rome to become one of its greatest [and most hard as nails] leaders).
> @Luckyguy1983 said: > > @Luckyguy1983 said: > > > Here's why I think Leadsom. Committed Brexiter but worked within the Government to see the result through, not a wrecker. Comes over very well in interviews, and in speeches, has a sense of humour. Has performed well in each role that she has been given. Understands business having worked in the corporate banking sector (although most here claim she actually cleaned the loos). Enough said really. I don't see any other candidate with anything like that combination of qualifications. I don't see how Farage would attack her either. > > > > Yes. It has to be Leadsom. Cometh the hour ... > > > @Luckyguy1983 said: > > > Here's why I think Leadsom. Committed Brexiter but worked within the Government to see the result through, not a wrecker. Comes over very well in interviews, and in speeches, has a sense of humour. Has performed well in each role that she has been given. Understands business having worked in the corporate banking sector (although most here claim she actually cleaned the loos). Enough said really. I don't see any other candidate with anything like that combination of qualifications. I don't see how Farage would attack her either. > > > > Yes. It has to be Leadsom. Cometh the hour ... > > Even on PB, reaction in varied quarters to her potential candidature has ranged from mildly critical to very much in favour. I've been surprised.
You shouldn't be. How many other Nobel prize winners are there in parliament, after all?
> > So move to Mansfield..... > > Indeed. The EAST MIDLANDS has much to offer.
It does. I had a nice flat in Nottingham near public transport and supermarkets, yet quiet, for £500/month. I miss it. My slightly smaller flat in Haslemere, with barely adequate public transport, is £1050/month.
I'm not a fan of HS2, but if it does get built I can see people happily living in the E Mids and commuting to jobs in London or elsewhere.
> @Chris said: > > @williamglenn said: > > > @MaxPB said: > > > > > > He does. He says "it's racist to criticise Islam full stop". > > > > He doesn't say it shouldn't be "allowed". > > Among young people today doesn't [anything bad] pretty much equate to "it shouldn't be allowed"? > >
I think that is a little unfair. Young people today drink far less than we did. I don't see many calling for it to be banned. They also smoke much less dope, yet look on its unbanning far more favourably than does my generation. Most can see there are problems for society with the vast and easy availability of porn and all other kind of Internet stuff. Yet they don't want it restricted. That would be the oldies.
> > > He does. He says "it's racist to criticise Islam full stop".
> >
> > He doesn't say it shouldn't be "allowed".
>
> Among young people today doesn't [anything bad] pretty much equate to "it shouldn't be allowed"?
>
>
I think that is a little unfair. Young people today drink far less than we did. I don't see many calling for it to be banned.
They also smoke much less dope, yet look on its unbanning far more favourably than does my generation.
Most can see there are problems for society with the vast and easy availability of porn and all other kind of Internet stuff. Yet they don't want it restricted. That would be the oldies.
Perhaps, but they are perhaps far more restrictive on what people should be allowed to say, if what they wish to say is bad.
> @Byronic said: > > He literally says "it is racist to criticise Islam, full stop". > > That's a blasphemy law, and a harsh one at that. That's the end of the Enlightenment. In one sentence. —————
His proposed sanction is throwing milkshake, not arrest, so you are projecting somewhat.
> @kle4 said: > > @ah009 said: > > > @HYUFD said: > > > https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1130079172968308736?s=20 > > > > Good. Majorities on councils aren't good. Scotland has it far better than England. > > ------------------------- > I certainly don't think it good that many councils are as dominated by a single party as they are, some 100% for one party, as even if they try hard I think in the long term bad behaviour, laziness and entitlement will occur, but is there any proof that local councils in scotland are inherently better run as a result of no majorities?
My meaning was that Scotland has it better in that no councils are majority run. My contention is that this is better, for reasons including (but not limited to) how well run the council is. I won't try to prove it, since I am partially talking about my strong preference, but if anyone has an idea of ways to measure part of this concept objectively, I'll listen. Waste (however defined), participation in elections, satisfaction, transparency? I'm sure there are 100 ways to look at it. But my central concern is that parties get used to working together so that compromise happens at the interparty level of politics, not intraparty and certainly not in the mind of the voter. I want a future where voters in all parts of the country can vote with their beliefs and know that even the smaller parties in a council or parliament will have *some* say. Majorities threaten that concept and shift the burden of compromise from the politician towards the voter.
@kle4. Perhaps yes. I do find this blanket portrayal of the young as illiberal puritans a little irritating though. The casual and widespread outright racism and homophobia I grew up with is not a place I would ever want us to go back to. As ever, there is a balance to be struck.
He does. He says "it's racist to criticise Islam full stop".
Well in nearly a dozen countries doing so would get you the death penalty! So it’s hardly surprising some bring those opinions with them.
No one would ever say criticising Catholicism, Methodism, Buddhism or Hinduism is racist. I am Catholic and it has nothing to do with my race - it’s a religious belief which luckily I have the right to leave if I wish wherever I live as it’s a free choice.
CUK rally just finished. Will type up a full report later, although there was nothing as embarrassing as being asked to look in my hands. Heidi was clear that they're becoming the Revoke party though, so there is at least some difference from the LDs
> @williamglenn said: > > @Byronic said: > > > > He literally says "it is racist to criticise Islam, full stop". > > > > That's a blasphemy law, and a harsh one at that. That's the end of the Enlightenment. In one sentence. > ————— > > His proposed sanction is throwing milkshake, not arrest, so you are projecting somewhat. <
++++++
Don't be ridiculous. He clearly thinks racism is bad, and should not be heard - i.e. allowed. Do you dispute this?
He thinks ANY criticism of Islam is racist "full stop". Aside from his fatal confusion of Islam with race, the clearly and only implication of his statement is that any criticism of Islam should not be allowed, because it is automatically racist.
That is a blasphemy law. And a particularly dangerous one. Denying this is futile. I don't know why you are bothering.
> > He does. He says "it's racist to criticise Islam full stop".
>
> He doesn't say it shouldn't be "allowed".
Among young people today doesn't [anything bad] pretty much equate to "it shouldn't be allowed"?
Something that always perplexes me is way that the the rivalry and antipathy amongst generations seems to be so ill-informed. I'm generalising here, but you quite often see US "millenials" criticising "baby boomers" as privledged, bigotted, reactionary and so on. But it was those very same baby boomers who were the 60s counter culture, the hippies, the anti-war protesters, the free love drug-taking drop-outs who were protesting to make the world a better place.
Of course every generation thinks it is different from the previous one, and the first to think or do certain things.
> @dixiedean said: > @kle4. Perhaps yes. I do find this blanket portrayal of the young as illiberal puritans a little irritating though. The casual and widespread outright racism and homophobia I grew up with is not a place I would ever want us to go back to. > As ever, there is a balance to be struck.<
+++++
Fair enough. I agree. But the trouble with this rising generation is that many of them don't want a balance, they simply want free speech curtailed, and curtailed quite drastically. Especially with regards to race and religion, to the extent that no criticism of Islam should be allowed, as we see with that guy in the vid.
I can't work out if this is a failure of our education system: not teaching the values of the Enlightenment. The problem with that theory is that the same phenomenon is happening in America, Australia, etc, are their educations systems just like ours?
The alternative is that this is a new, serious paradigm shift: that we reached peak Free Speech in the 1960s, and we are now headed back to a closed, illiberal, much more censorious kind of world.
> @Mauve said: > CUK rally just finished. Will type up a full report later, although there was nothing as embarrassing as being asked to look in my hands. Heidi was clear that they're becoming the Revoke party though, so there is at least some difference from the LDs
So now we know what the Chukkers want to change - to change the country from a democracy to an autocracy.
> CUK rally just finished. Will type up a full report later, although there was nothing as embarrassing as being asked to look in my hands. Heidi was clear that they're becoming the Revoke party though, so there is at least some difference from the LDs
So now we know what the Chukkers want to change - to change the country from a democracy to an autocracy.
Given what is happening with Farage it seems bonkers, nay dangerous, to me, to be proposing to just tear up the previous result and revoke.
Perhaps CHUK imagine a future in which they are the Government and Farage and 150 BP MPs are the Opposition.
> @glw said: > > @williamglenn said: > > > > @MaxPB said: > > > > > > > > He does. He says "it's racist to criticise Islam full stop". > > > > > > He doesn't say it shouldn't be "allowed". > > > > Among young people today doesn't [anything bad] pretty much equate to "it shouldn't be allowed"? > > Something that always perplexes me is way that the the rivalry and antipathy amongst generations seems to be so ill-informed. I'm generalising here, but you quite often see US "millenials" criticising "baby boomers" as privledged, bigotted, reactionary and so on. But it was those very same baby boomers who were the 60s counter culture, the hippies, the anti-war protesters, the free love drug-taking drop-outs who were protesting to make the world a better place. > > Of course every generation thinks it is different from the previous one, and the first to think or do certain things.
As usual, Paul Weller (pbah) had it sussed:
'Cause we've all grown up, and we've got our lives And the values that we had once upon a time Seem stupid now, 'cause the rent must be paid And some bonds severed, and others made Now I don't want you to get me wrong Ideals are fine when you are young And I must admit we had a laugh But that's all it was and ever will be
> @Byronic said: > > @dixiedean said: > > @kle4. Perhaps yes. I do find this blanket portrayal of the young as illiberal puritans a little irritating though. The casual and widespread outright racism and homophobia I grew up with is not a place I would ever want us to go back to. > > As ever, there is a balance to be struck.< > > +++++ > > Fair enough. I agree. But the trouble with this rising generation is that many of them don't want a balance, they simply want free speech curtailed, and curtailed quite drastically. Especially with regards to race and religion, to the extent that no criticism of Islam should be allowed, as we see with that guy in the vid. > > I can't work out if this is a failure of our education system: not teaching the values of the Enlightenment. The problem with that theory is that the same phenomenon is happening in America, Australia, etc, are their educations systems just like ours? > > The alternative is that this is a new, serious paradigm shift: that we reached peak Free Speech in the 1960s, and we are now headed back to a closed, illiberal, much more censorious kind of world. > > I find that prospect melancholy. >
I think that the boundaries of what is "acceptable" in polite society is simply changing as it always has. For me, I am quite socially liberal, and am uncomfortable with the government banning anything for moral reasons without a great deal of evidence of serious harm or without a lot of thought. I would be wary of drawing any broad conclusions. Squeaky wheels tend to get noticed.
A interesting angle from the Guardian book reviews:
...Sandbrook’s review does offer a silver lining to those who find him objectionable. “Before I started, the prospect of Rees-Mogg in Downing Street struck me as a ridiculous idea,” he wrote. “But if this is what it takes to stop him writing another book, then I think we should seriously consider paying the price.”
> @SandyRentool said: > > @Mauve said: > > CUK rally just finished. Will type up a full report later, although there was nothing as embarrassing as being asked to look in my hands. Heidi was clear that they're becoming the Revoke party though, so there is at least some difference from the LDs > > So now we know what the Chukkers want to change - to change the country from a democracy to an autocracy.
---
Given a number of options, CHUK unerringly choose the worst.
Still, I'd love to hear Mauve's report from Remainer Central. If the CHUKers can't get a decent audience of ~ 100s in Cambridge, they're screwed.
CUK rally just finished. Will type up a full report later, although there was nothing as embarrassing as being asked to look in my hands. Heidi was clear that they're becoming the Revoke party though, so there is at least some difference from the LDs
They better get that message out their quickly then. It would be a little funny if that dented the LD revival, although I think with so little time left the LDs have enough momentum to push for second place at least.
I see Jezza has made another gnomic answer about a 2nd vote and Seamus has had to put everyone straight again.
It happens so often it is quite clearly deliberate strategy - say enough that most Labour voters watching think the party is full on referendum, and by implication remain, while issuing clarifications to roll that back but that only annoys MPs for the most part.
It will be interesting if the LD surge is real and that deliberate strategy backfired.
> CUK rally just finished. Will type up a full report later, although there was nothing as embarrassing as being asked to look in my hands. Heidi was clear that they're becoming the Revoke party though, so there is at least some difference from the LDs
So now we know what the Chukkers want to change - to change the country from a democracy to an autocracy.
Revoke is become a very real possibility indeed. The LDs, most of Labour and all the minor parties should support it based on their comments about Brexiting.
> @dixiedean said: > @kle4. Perhaps yes. I do find this blanket portrayal of the young as illiberal puritans a little irritating though. The casual and widespread outright racism and homophobia I grew up with is not a place I would ever want us to go back to. > As ever, there is a balance to be struck.
Given the number of stories written about it, you'd think there was rather more evidence for the theory. But it's common for the old to moan about the young (and I suppose for the young to ignore the old).
> @AlastairMeeks said: > I’ve closed out my lay of Jeremy Corbyn for next Prime Minister today at 18. I may lay him again if he shortens markedly.
He is at 21/1 on Betfair now. Seems almost impossible he could become PM next to be honest since surely Tory Mps won't let Theresa May fight another general election.
> @Byronic said: > > Don't be ridiculous. He clearly thinks racism is bad, and should not be heard - i.e. allowed. Do you dispute this? > > He thinks ANY criticism of Islam is racist "full stop". Aside from his fatal confusion of Islam with race, the clearly and only implication of his statement is that any criticism of Islam should not be allowed, because it is automatically racist. > > That is a blasphemy law. And a particularly dangerous one. Denying this is futile. I don't know why you are bothering. > ---------
You're showing massive confirmation bias, to the extent that you literally put words into someone's mouth to support your preconceived idea of their views as an example of the illiberal 'woke' left. I do dispute that you can infer from his words any support for blasphemy laws.
> @dixiedean said: > > I think that the boundaries of what is "acceptable" in polite society is simply changing as it always has. For me, I am quite socially liberal, and am uncomfortable with the government banning anything for moral reasons without a great deal of evidence of serious harm or without a lot of thought. > I would be wary of drawing any broad conclusions. Squeaky wheels tend to get noticed.<
++++
I think you are dangerously complacent. The death of Free Speech is happening, right now, right in front of us. We already have a de facto blasphemy law protecting Islam - by the implicit threat of violence against anyone who criticises it.
We will get a REAL blasphemy law if the government caves in to pressure, and accepts the new definition of Islamophobia, which renders any criticism of "Muslimness", or its attributes, "racist" and "hateful".
Nor is this confined to Islam. Try going on Twitter and making critical remarks about the trans lobby, or even just remarks that aren't positive. Free speech is being truncated there, as well.
> @GIN1138 said: > > @logical_song said: > > > @justin124 said: > > > > @GIN1138 said: > > > > In the EU elections do we vote in order of preference? Or do we just vote for one party? > > > > > > Just one party. > > > > Which is why it's not a good system, STV is much better. > > Was in order of preference in 1999 wasn't it? That one was entirely by post as well I think? > > I'm sure I remember my grandmother receiving a huge ballot paper in the post with an assortment of different parties and being totally befuddled what she was supposed to do with it...
That may have been for the Police Commissioner Elections a few years ago!
Last few days of the European campaign. I think t/o will be up on previous stand alone Euros, but still fairly low: mid twenties. Lib Dem charge still out there, but perhaps a slight slowdown. Still think they are on course to beat Labour (and of course the Tories- who are in meltdown). TBP hard to call- Farage is so Marmite with the voters, but I'm guessing perhaps slightly above previous UKIP vote. I think "remain" parties will out poll TBP but the vote split will give TBP more MEPs in total. So country still very divided and none of the mooted Tory leaders will be able to cut the Gordian knot. No matter who the leader is, the Conservatives will find it very hard to avoid a thrashing at the next GE.
In calling Boris 'past his best', you suggest that there might have been a time at which he was some good. Not so. Someone needs to tell the story of his failings as London Mayor. The story isn't told because Labour decided against all negative campaigning when in 2016 they found themselves up against a candidate advised by xenophobes.
CUK rally just finished. Will type up a full report later, although there was nothing as embarrassing as being asked to look in my hands. Heidi was clear that they're becoming the Revoke party though, so there is at least some difference from the LDs
It's faintly hilarious that CUK have at least identified a point of differentiation from the other parties... and completely flunked its announcement.
A longwinded statement from Chuka on Marr, a half-arsed press release and a statement at a rally in Cambridge. I'm not expecting that to move the needle.
> @El_Capitano said: > CUK rally just finished. Will type up a full report later, although there was nothing as embarrassing as being asked to look in my hands. Heidi was clear that they're becoming the Revoke party though, so there is at least some difference from the LDs > > It's faintly hilarious that CUK have at least identified a point of differentiation from the other parties... and completely flunked its announcement. > > A longwinded statement from Chuka on Marr, a half-arsed press release and a statement at a rally in Cambridge. I'm not expecting that to move the needle.
Didn't Umunna himself say the referendum must be respected? He's simply a hypocrite now.
> @rkrkrk said: > > @AlastairMeeks said: > > I’ve closed out my lay of Jeremy Corbyn for next Prime Minister today at 18. I may lay him again if he shortens markedly. > > He is at 21/1 on Betfair now. Seems almost impossible he could become PM next to be honest since surely Tory Mps won't let Theresa May fight another general election.
> @Byronic said: > > @dixiedean said: > > > > I think that the boundaries of what is "acceptable" in polite society is simply changing as it always has. For me, I am quite socially liberal, and am uncomfortable with the government banning anything for moral reasons without a great deal of evidence of serious harm or without a lot of thought. > > I would be wary of drawing any broad conclusions. Squeaky wheels tend to get noticed.< > > ++++ > > I think you are dangerously complacent. The death of Free Speech is happening, right now, right in front of us. We already have a de facto blasphemy law protecting Islam - by the implicit threat of violence against anyone who criticises it. > > We will get a REAL blasphemy law if the government caves in to pressure, and accepts the new definition of Islamophobia, which renders any criticism of "Muslimness", or its attributes, "racist" and "hateful". > > Nor is this confined to Islam. Try going on Twitter and making critical remarks about the trans lobby, or even just remarks that aren't positive. Free speech is being truncated there, as well. > > It is slow but it is happening. >
Rather confusingly YouGov apparently reporting a new poll on Europe Elects with the Lib Dems now at 18 equal to the BP for Westminster vote .
When you compare the results in terms of Labour , down 17 from the GE in 2017 to 24 .
The Lib Dems up 10 , Greens up 4 , add in Change UK , on 2 . Clearly Labour are seeing a mass exodus towards Remain parties .
A lot of attention seems to be on the Tories , which means Labour has avoided the media obsession with the BP and Tory problems but clearly they’re in deep trouble with their EU Brexit policy or non policy !
In calling Boris 'past his best', you suggest that there might have been a time at which he was some good. Not so. Someone needs to tell the story of his failings as London Mayor. The story isn't told because Labour decided against all negative campaigning when in 2016 they found themselves up against a candidate advised by xenophobes.
His failures or successes as London mayor are, I would think, a bit irrelevant - what matters to his backers is he won.
> @Byronic said: > > @dixiedean said: > > > > I think that the boundaries of what is "acceptable" in polite society is simply changing as it always has. For me, I am quite socially liberal, and am uncomfortable with the government banning anything for moral reasons without a great deal of evidence of serious harm or without a lot of thought. > > I would be wary of drawing any broad conclusions. Squeaky wheels tend to get noticed.< > > ++++ > > I think you are dangerously complacent. The death of Free Speech is happening, right now, right in front of us. We already have a de facto blasphemy law protecting Islam - by the implicit threat of violence against anyone who criticises it. > > We will get a REAL blasphemy law if the government caves in to pressure, and accepts the new definition of Islamophobia, which renders any criticism of "Muslimness", or its attributes, "racist" and "hateful". > > Nor is this confined to Islam. Try going on Twitter and making critical remarks about the trans lobby, or even just remarks that aren't positive. Free speech is being truncated there, as well. > > It is slow but it is happening. >
I am all for free speech, but you seem to be objecting to being criticised for criticising something else.
There are tens of thousands of people criticising Islam on a daily basis (sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly), and hundreds criticising the trans lobby on a daily basis in the UK. Very few are limited by the state from doing so, and those that are would have to be inciting violence. Yes those people may then be criticised by other groups and may get called racist, hateful or bigoted (again sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly).
I stand by the 1st groups right to criticise whether they are right or wrong.
I also stand by the 2nd groups right to criticise those who criticise.
If either group threatens violence they should be dealt with.
If a private company like Twitter does not want one or both groups on their site that is broadly a commercial matter, not for the government.
The balance on free speech is about right in the UK and should not be changed.
> @nico67 said: > Rather confusingly YouGov apparently reporting a new poll on Europe Elects with the Lib Dems now at 18 equal to the BP for Westminster vote . This poll seems to be part of that big 9000 sample yesterday but only being reported now as GB only. > > When you compare the results in terms of Labour , down 17 from the GE in 2017 to 24 . > > The Lib Dems up 10 , Greens up 4 , add in Change UK , on 2 . Clearly Labour are seeing a mass exodus towards Remain parties . > > A lot of attention seems to be on the Tories , which means Labour has avoided the media obsession with the BP and Tory problems but clearly they’re in deep trouble with their EU Brexit policy or non policy !
> @dixiedean said: > > @another_richard said: > > > @MarqueeMark said: > > > > @another_richard said: > > > > > @brendan16 said: > > > > > > @HYUFD said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @AndyJS said: > > > > > > > > > > > > "Winning the wealthy and losing the workers: how Labor's Victorian vote transformed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Results from Australia’s most progressive state show the party is at risk of losing its heartland" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/may/19/winning-the-wealthy-and-losing-the-workers-how-labors-victorian-vote-transformed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Australian election was a reflection of what is happening across the western world, centre left parties losing skilled working class voters to conservatives but winning more graduate professionals from conservatives > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Indeed. But it seems like they often overestimate how many city-dwelling liberals there are, as we discussed yesterday, and tend to forget where the important marginals are located. > > > > > > > > > > Problem is the city dwelling liberals are all concentrated in their bubble and think everyone else thinks like them as they don’t engage outside their bubble and frankly sneer and look down on their supposed ‘inferiors’. Stupid, poorly educated, didn’t know what they were voting for and of course the final tactic when all else fails ‘racist’ > > > > > > > > > > Far from being open minded many are the exact opposite. > > > > > > > > I wonder how much resentment fuels that attitude. > > > > > > > > It must be hard for someone from a middle class background who has been to a top university to be massively in debt and renting a room in Walthamstow to know that factory workers in Mansfield own their homes. > > > > > > So move to Mansfield..... > > > > That would mean admitting they failed in London and accepting they weren't as talented as they thought they were. > > > > Many would rather wallow in resentment and look for others to blame. > > Do talented people live in London? The less talented elsewhere?
I'd suggest the overly educated and ambitious do so while the more practical and realistic don't.
London might be a good place for the highly talented but its a hard place for those who aren't and especially those who aren't as good as they think they are.
> @RobD said: > > @El_Capitano said: > > CUK rally just finished. Will type up a full report later, although there was nothing as embarrassing as being asked to look in my hands. Heidi was clear that they're becoming the Revoke party though, so there is at least some difference from the LDs > > > > It's faintly hilarious that CUK have at least identified a point of differentiation from the other parties... and completely flunked its announcement. > > > > A longwinded statement from Chuka on Marr, a half-arsed press release and a statement at a rally in Cambridge. I'm not expecting that to move the needle. > > Didn't Umunna himself say the referendum must be respected? He's simply a hypocrite now.
Yes but to be fair, Nigel Farage said there should be a second referendum when he thought he was about to lose the first one.
Last few days of the European campaign. I think t/o will be up on previous stand alone Euros, but still fairly low: mid twenties.
A counterargument is there are vastly more people signed up for postal ballots than there were the last time a European election happened without locals. About 20% of the electorate will likely have received their ballot by post and while it's possible they could just not return them, even in this year's locals it seems returns were decent; much higher than in-person. It has become difficult to get truly bad turnouts.
My own view is that, while there clearly are generational differences about what is deemed important in life, and hence in cultures and behaviours, much of the research done is of dubious value, subject to framing, attribution and confirmation biases of those (older) people conducting it.
To the extent I see a difference, the differences are just that - differences, not better or worse. Not wanting to have a career but seeking a work/life balance skewed towards life is not better or worse - it is different. Wanting to know the social value of the work being asked of them may lead to some jobs being unfilled, but can lead to high productivity and greater innovation once a good reason for working has been found. Choosing to stay longer at home with parents rather than renting or buying your own place may be seen as less drive, or actually making better use of existing resources.
Most of what I have seen written fails to see the positives, and dwells on the negatives.
> @DecrepitJohnL said: > > @RobD said: > > Didn't Umunna himself say the referendum must be respected? He's simply a hypocrite now. > > Yes but to be fair, Nigel Farage said there should be a second referendum when he thought he was about to lose the first one.
Yes, but Umunna isn't saying that. He is saying Revoke (without any Referendum).
> > My own view is that, while there clearly are generational differences about what is deemed important in life, and hence in cultures and behaviours, much of the research done is of dubious value, subject to framing, attribution and confirmation biases of those (older) people conducting it. > > To the extent I see a difference, the differences are just that - differences, not better or worse. Not wanting to have a career but seeking a work/life balance skewed towards life is not better or worse - it is different. Wanting to know the social value of the work being asked of them may lead to some jobs being unfilled, but can lead to high productivity and greater innovation once a good reason for working has been found. Choosing to stay longer at home with parents rather than renting or buying your own place may be seen as less drive, or actually making better use of existing resources. > > Most of what I have seen written fails to see the positives, and dwells on the negatives.<
+++++
I sincerely hope you are right, and I am just a grumbling and ageing Gen X-er; but, likewise, I sincerely fear you are wrong.
> @YBarddCwsc said: > > @DecrepitJohnL said: > > > @RobD said: > > > Didn't Umunna himself say the referendum must be respected? He's simply a hypocrite now. > > > > Yes but to be fair, Nigel Farage said there should be a second referendum when he thought he was about to lose the first one. > > Yes, but Umunna isn't saying that. He is saying Revoke (without any Referendum). >
Schmidt is 100% wrong on the vision thing. All the truly great leaders had a vision - and one that others did not believe was achievable until the great leader persuaded them it was.
> @brokenwheel said: > Last few days of the European campaign. I think t/o will be up on previous stand alone Euros, but still fairly low: mid twenties. > > A counterargument is there are vastly more people signed up for postal ballots than there were the last time a European election happened without locals. About 20% of the electorate will likely have received their ballot by post and while it's possible they could just not return them, even in this year's locals it seems returns were decent; much higher than in-person. It has become difficult to get truly bad turnouts.
My bets are that turnout will be in the 30s. The numbers who are signed up for postals at every election will make a difference.
> @MikeSmithson said: > > @YBarddCwsc said: > > > @DecrepitJohnL said: > > > > @RobD said: > > > > Didn't Umunna himself say the referendum must be respected? He's simply a hypocrite now. > > > > > > Yes but to be fair, Nigel Farage said there should be a second referendum when he thought he was about to lose the first one. > > > > Yes, but Umunna isn't saying that. He is saying Revoke (without any Referendum). > > > > Given Leave cheated that's clearly right.
> @MTimT said: > Schmidt is 100% wrong on the vision thing. All the truly great leaders had a vision - and one that others did not believe was achievable until the great leader persuaded them it was.
"Most of the political leaders [in continental Europe] are simply following nationalist and populist rhetoric, and that is for me not a democracy. A democracy, in my opinion, is a political leader developing a vision and then trying to convince the public opinion to follow his vision"
The words of Guy Verhofstadt above would agree with you, before he stopped trying to convince people.
> @Byronic said: > > @MTimT said: > > > > > My own view is that, while there clearly are generational differences about what is deemed important in life, and hence in cultures and behaviours, much of the research done is of dubious value, subject to framing, attribution and confirmation biases of those (older) people conducting it. > > > > To the extent I see a difference, the differences are just that - differences, not better or worse. Not wanting to have a career but seeking a work/life balance skewed towards life is not better or worse - it is different. Wanting to know the social value of the work being asked of them may lead to some jobs being unfilled, but can lead to high productivity and greater innovation once a good reason for working has been found. Choosing to stay longer at home with parents rather than renting or buying your own place may be seen as less drive, or actually making better use of existing resources. > > > > Most of what I have seen written fails to see the positives, and dwells on the negatives.< > > +++++ > > > I sincerely hope you are right, and I am just a grumbling and ageing Gen X-er; but, likewise, I sincerely fear you are wrong.
If this interests you, you might like Laloux's <i>Reinventing Organizations</i>. Two components - the nature of work is changing from what made our generation's world view apposite (mass production and standardization) to a knowledge economy where knowledge per se is a commodity and it is the ability to ask the right questions and know how to apply the knowledge that is important. This shifts the motivational model from external motivation and control, to intrinsic motivation and direction without control. Which in turn changes the organizational model from hierarchies and manage by objectives, to self-organizational and work for a purpose (greater than self).
So the environment is demanding a different style of work; the different style of work demands a different style of organization; and a different style of organization requires that leadership AND workers view the purpose of the organization differently in order to organize themselves more appropriately to be effective knowledge workers.
Brian Robertson <i>Holacracy</i> goes into even more detail.
In short, I think the next generation are shaping up to be just about right for the type of organization that will be required in tomorrow's economy, and considerably unfit for yesterday's economy. I do not lament that.
> @MikeSmithson said: > > @YBarddCwsc said: >> > > Yes, but Umunna isn't saying that. He is saying Revoke (without any Referendum). > > Given Leave cheated that's clearly right.
Leave cheated and Remain cheated. Leave lied and Remain lied. LibDems cheat (see the fine in Ceredigion for exceeding election expenses or the money from Michael Brown never repaid) and LibDems lie (tuition fees).
It is endemic in the electoral process.
To cheat is of course one of those famous irregular verbs
I make a pledge with the best intentions that I cannot deliver, You are not straight with the electorate, He lies and cheats.
> @justin124 said: > > @GIN1138 said: > > > @logical_song said: > > > > @justin124 said: > > > > > @GIN1138 said: > > > > > In the EU elections do we vote in order of preference? Or do we just vote for one party? > > > > > > > > Just one party. > > > > > > Which is why it's not a good system, STV is much better. > > > > Was in order of preference in 1999 wasn't it? That one was entirely by post as well I think? > > > > I'm sure I remember my grandmother receiving a huge ballot paper in the post with an assortment of different parties and being totally befuddled what she was supposed to do with it... > > That may have been for the Police Commissioner Elections a few years ago!
1999 was not all postal. You are thinking of 2004 when it was all posral in six English regions. This had the effect of boosting turnout and LAB
> @Sunil_Prasannan said: > Bizarely the Lib Dems score 18 on Westminster Poll but only 17 for the Euros. > > > > Seems a bit weird , you’d expect the Euro to be higher. > > > > > > Nope, at every Euro election, the LDs (or Libs in '79 or Alliance during the '80s) score less at the Euros than at the subsequent General election.
Is that because of the Greens scoring well? Because it does seem surprising.
In normal times Cyclefree makes good points about what a good leader needs but we are not in normal times and the Tories are facing potential doom unless they get a leader who can win back voters from the Brexit Party.
On Thursday the polling suggests a majority of 2017 Tory voters will vote Brexit Party and already some GE polls are showing the Brexit Party over 20%, if that is not addressed soon it could prove fatal.
It is precisely when times are hard and difficult decisions need making that one needs a leader of real substantive quality.
If the Tories think that treating the governance of this country is a matter for a popularity contest then they will be doomed - and deservedly so.
> CUK rally just finished. Will type up a full report later, although there was nothing as embarrassing as being asked to look in my hands. Heidi was clear that they're becoming the Revoke party though, so there is at least some difference from the LDs
>
> It's faintly hilarious that CUK have at least identified a point of differentiation from the other parties... and completely flunked its announcement.
>
> A longwinded statement from Chuka on Marr, a half-arsed press release and a statement at a rally in Cambridge. I'm not expecting that to move the needle.
Didn't Umunna himself say the referendum must be respected? He's simply a hypocrite now.
Perhaps he’s giving it the respect that he feels it deserves. He’s hardly alone in that.
> Bizarely the Lib Dems score 18 on Westminster Poll but only 17 for the Euros.
>
>
>
> Seems a bit weird , you’d expect the Euro to be higher.
>
>
>
>
>
> Nope, at every Euro election, the LDs (or Libs in '79 or Alliance during the '80s) score less at the Euros than at the subsequent General election.
Is that because of the Greens scoring well? Because it does seem surprising.
The Greens suddenly shot up from 0.5% in 1984 to 14.5% in 1989, eclipsing the LibDems, then dropped back down to 3.1% in 1994. in 2014, they scored 7.7% beating the LDs on 6.6%.
> @matt said: > > @El_Capitano said: > > > CUK rally just finished. Will type up a full report later, although there was nothing as embarrassing as being asked to look in my hands. Heidi was clear that they're becoming the Revoke party though, so there is at least some difference from the LDs > > > > > > It's faintly hilarious that CUK have at least identified a point of differentiation from the other parties... and completely flunked its announcement. > > > > > > A longwinded statement from Chuka on Marr, a half-arsed press release and a statement at a rally in Cambridge. I'm not expecting that to move the needle. > > > > Didn't Umunna himself say the referendum must be respected? He's simply a hypocrite now. > > Perhaps he’s giving it the respect that he feels it deserves. He’s hardly alone in that.
By simply ignoring the results of one of the biggest democratic exercises the country has ever seen?
> @Sunil_Prasannan said: > Bizarely the Lib Dems score 18 on Westminster Poll but only 17 for the Euros. > > > > Seems a bit weird , you’d expect the Euro to be higher. > > > > > > Nope, at every Euro election, the LDs (or Libs in '79 or Alliance during the '80s) score less at the Euros than at the subsequent General election.
This is a different case . The Euros are basically a single issue election , there is a move from Lab to Lib Dems and Green . It could be that because of that some Labour voters are now so irritated with Labours stance that they’re now not differentiating between Westminster and Euro .
In effect there’s little churn between those . Because we’ve had lots of polling and a few weeks of people thinking about the Euros the Euro vote is becoming absorbed with Westminster .
> @YBarddCwsc said: > > @MikeSmithson said: > > > @YBarddCwsc said: > >> > > > Yes, but Umunna isn't saying that. He is saying Revoke (without any Referendum). > > > > Given Leave cheated that's clearly right. > > Leave cheated and Remain cheated. Leave lied and Remain lied. LibDems cheat (see the fine in Ceredigion for exceeding election expenses or the money from Michael Brown never repaid) and LibDems lie (tuition fees). > > It is endemic in the electoral process. > > To cheat is of course one of those famous irregular verbs > > I make a pledge with the best intentions that I cannot deliver, > You are not straight with the electorate, > He lies and cheats.
I do something wrong, it is because of exigent circumstances You do something wrong, it is because you are evil.
I’m actually more confused today by Labours Brexit policy than I was yesterday and this is coming from someone who as many are here are political junkies .
Indeed the more Corbyn talks the worse it gets for Labour . He’s the best recruiting sergeant for the Lib Dems .
> @rkrkrk said: > > @AlastairMeeks said: > > I’ve closed out my lay of Jeremy Corbyn for next Prime Minister today at 18. I may lay him again if he shortens markedly. > > He is at 21/1 on Betfair now. Seems almost impossible he could become PM next to be honest since surely Tory Mps won't let Theresa May fight another general election.
Given the current numbers in Parliament, there is going to be real doubt whether the next Conservative leader becomes the next Prime Minister. I expect Jeremy Corbyn’s price will shorten at least once more because of that.
> @kle4 said: > > @MTimT said: > > Schmidt is 100% wrong on the vision thing. All the truly great leaders had a vision - and one that others did not believe was achievable until the great leader persuaded them it was. > > "Most of the political leaders [in continental Europe] are simply following nationalist and populist rhetoric, and that is for me not a democracy. A democracy, in my opinion, is a political leader developing a vision and then trying to convince the public opinion to follow his vision" > > The words of Guy Verhofstadt above would agree with you, before he stopped trying to convince people.
Well, bugger me. I am forced to acknowledge that I agree with Guy Verhofstadt on something.
Comments
> John Mann is another northern Labour martyr MP.
>
> Always whining about the south . London pays more into the Treasury than it takes out .
>
> He’s also a Lexiter whose intent on enabling a right wing capitalism on steroids Brexit . If he thinks this is going to help his constituents he’s deluded .
Sorry to be pedantic*, but Bassetlaw is not the North. It is part of the East Midlands. The rest I broadly agree with.
*On PB? For shame, whatever next?
> > @ydoethur said:
> > Only Medium and Small left now
> >
> > That's rather a disrespectful way of referring to Chuka and Heidi.
>
> Nothing medium or small about Chukas ego
You say that but Heidi Allen is leader which may be yet another own-goal. Presumably this was intended to attract more Conservative defectors but Chuka is their only star name and should be up front and centre.
Contrast this with the Brexit Party where you can hardly turn on the telly without seeing either Nigel Farage or Ann Widdecombe.
> John Mann is another northern Labour martyr MP.
>
> Always whining about the south . London pays more into the Treasury than it takes out .
>
> He’s also a Lexiter whose intent on enabling a right wing capitalism on steroids Brexit . If he thinks this is going to help his constituents he’s deluded .
Starmer is the sort of bloke who gets a nosebleed if he leaves London. The fact that London pays more to the treasury means fuck all,that's the type of thinking that eased Leave over the line and caused you to shit yer pants on here everyday.
> > @HYUFD said:
>
> > > @AndyJS said:
>
> > > "Winning the wealthy and losing the workers: how Labor's Victorian vote transformed
>
> > >
>
> > > Results from Australia’s most progressive state show the party is at risk of losing its heartland"
>
> > >
>
> > > https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/may/19/winning-the-wealthy-and-losing-the-workers-how-labors-victorian-vote-transformed
>
> >
>
> > The Australian election was a reflection of what is happening across the western world, centre left parties losing skilled working class voters to conservatives but winning more graduate professionals from conservatives
>
>
>
> Indeed. But it seems like they often overestimate how many city-dwelling liberals there are, as we discussed yesterday, and tend to forget where the important marginals are located.
>
> Problem is the city dwelling liberals are all concentrated in their bubble and think everyone else thinks like them as they don’t engage outside their bubble and frankly sneer and look down on their supposed ‘inferiors’. Stupid, poorly educated, didn’t know what they were voting for and of course the final tactic when all else fails ‘racist’
>
> Far from being open minded many are the exact opposite.
I wonder how much resentment fuels that attitude.
It must be hard for someone from a middle class background who has been to a top university to be massively in debt and renting a room in Walthamstow to know that factory workers in Mansfield own their homes.
>
> He does. He says "it's racist to criticise Islam full stop".
He doesn't say it shouldn't be "allowed".
> > @brendan16 said:
> > > @HYUFD said:
> >
> > > > @AndyJS said:
> >
> > > > "Winning the wealthy and losing the workers: how Labor's Victorian vote transformed
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Results from Australia’s most progressive state show the party is at risk of losing its heartland"
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/may/19/winning-the-wealthy-and-losing-the-workers-how-labors-victorian-vote-transformed
> >
> > >
> >
> > > The Australian election was a reflection of what is happening across the western world, centre left parties losing skilled working class voters to conservatives but winning more graduate professionals from conservatives
> >
> >
> >
> > Indeed. But it seems like they often overestimate how many city-dwelling liberals there are, as we discussed yesterday, and tend to forget where the important marginals are located.
> >
> > Problem is the city dwelling liberals are all concentrated in their bubble and think everyone else thinks like them as they don’t engage outside their bubble and frankly sneer and look down on their supposed ‘inferiors’. Stupid, poorly educated, didn’t know what they were voting for and of course the final tactic when all else fails ‘racist’
> >
> > Far from being open minded many are the exact opposite.
>
> I wonder how much resentment fuels that attitude.
>
> It must be hard for someone from a middle class background who has been to a top university to be massively in debt and renting a room in Walthamstow to know that factory workers in Mansfield own their homes.
So move to Mansfield.....
> > @Byronic said:
> >
> > An American journo interviews a couple of young Brits, presumably in N England, about Tommy Robinson. I like the first girl's casual but not inarticulate dismissal of him. She just laughs him off, as one should.
> >
> > However the second young guy is disturbing. He thinks that "no criticism of Islam should be allowed". Full stop. None.
> >
> ------
>
Are > @williamglenn said:
> > @Byronic said:
> >
> > An American journo interviews a couple of young Brits, presumably in N England, about Tommy Robinson. I like the first girl's casual but not inarticulate dismissal of him. She just laughs him off, as one should.
> >
> > However the second young guy is disturbing. He thinks that "no criticism of Islam should be allowed". Full stop. None.
> >
> ------
>
> Listen again. He does not say those words. <
+++++
He literally says "it is racist to criticise Islam, full stop".
That's a blasphemy law, and a harsh one at that. That's the end of the Enlightenment. In one sentence.
> > @another_richard said:
> > > @brendan16 said:
> > > > @HYUFD said:
> > >
> > > > > @AndyJS said:
> > >
> > > > > "Winning the wealthy and losing the workers: how Labor's Victorian vote transformed
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > > Results from Australia’s most progressive state show the party is at risk of losing its heartland"
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/may/19/winning-the-wealthy-and-losing-the-workers-how-labors-victorian-vote-transformed
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > The Australian election was a reflection of what is happening across the western world, centre left parties losing skilled working class voters to conservatives but winning more graduate professionals from conservatives
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Indeed. But it seems like they often overestimate how many city-dwelling liberals there are, as we discussed yesterday, and tend to forget where the important marginals are located.
> > >
> > > Problem is the city dwelling liberals are all concentrated in their bubble and think everyone else thinks like them as they don’t engage outside their bubble and frankly sneer and look down on their supposed ‘inferiors’. Stupid, poorly educated, didn’t know what they were voting for and of course the final tactic when all else fails ‘racist’
> > >
> > > Far from being open minded many are the exact opposite.
> >
> > I wonder how much resentment fuels that attitude.
> >
> > It must be hard for someone from a middle class background who has been to a top university to be massively in debt and renting a room in Walthamstow to know that factory workers in Mansfield own their homes.
>
> So move to Mansfield.....
Indeed. The EAST MIDLANDS has much to offer.
> > @another_richard said:
> > > @brendan16 said:
> > > > @HYUFD said:
> > >
> > > > > @AndyJS said:
> > >
> > > > > "Winning the wealthy and losing the workers: how Labor's Victorian vote transformed
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > > Results from Australia’s most progressive state show the party is at risk of losing its heartland"
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/may/19/winning-the-wealthy-and-losing-the-workers-how-labors-victorian-vote-transformed
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > The Australian election was a reflection of what is happening across the western world, centre left parties losing skilled working class voters to conservatives but winning more graduate professionals from conservatives
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Indeed. But it seems like they often overestimate how many city-dwelling liberals there are, as we discussed yesterday, and tend to forget where the important marginals are located.
> > >
> > > Problem is the city dwelling liberals are all concentrated in their bubble and think everyone else thinks like them as they don’t engage outside their bubble and frankly sneer and look down on their supposed ‘inferiors’. Stupid, poorly educated, didn’t know what they were voting for and of course the final tactic when all else fails ‘racist’
> > >
> > > Far from being open minded many are the exact opposite.
> >
> > I wonder how much resentment fuels that attitude.
> >
> > It must be hard for someone from a middle class background who has been to a top university to be massively in debt and renting a room in Walthamstow to know that factory workers in Mansfield own their homes.
>
> So move to Mansfield.....
That would mean admitting they failed in London and accepting they weren't as talented as they thought they were.
Many would rather wallow in resentment and look for others to blame.
> John Mann is another northern Labour martyr MP.
>
>
>
> Always whining about the south . London pays more into the Treasury than it takes out .
>
>
>
> He’s also a Lexiter whose intent on enabling a right wing capitalism on steroids Brexit . If he thinks this is going to help his constituents he’s deluded .
>
> LOL another load of London bollox of how they make all the money. You need to learn to read son or at least ask your Dad.
Afternoon Malc.
You tell him!
> > > There are lots of ways, they just require some thought. Here is one, offer Labour a referendum on Tory deal vs Labour deal and give Labour access to the civil service and EU negotiators to firm up their deal. This breaks the Labour obfuscation, and would be as hard to refuse as the offer of a general election was in 2017. Given there is little difference between the two potential deals it doesnt matter which side wins that referendum.
> > >
> > > If it was refused it forces Labour into an outright remain position which might give the votes of the Labour leave MPs needed for the Tory deal, and make those MPs more vulnerable at the next election.
> >
> > Barely any Tory MPs will vote for any Deal with a referendum attached, nor will a number of Labour MPs from Leave seats either. As the indicative votes showed more voted for May's Deal last time than for Deal plus confirmatory referendum
>
> Why would any MPs who want Brexit not vote for a referendum between Tory Brexit and Labour Brexit? They are virtually identical, apart from each party cannot be seen to support the other one.
As it would never get a majority given MPs who want a No Deal Brexit and MPs who want a referendum with a Remain option would vote it down
https://twitter.com/MhairiHunter/status/1130095335404126208
> > @logical_song said:
> > > @justin124 said:
> > > > @GIN1138 said:
> > > > In the EU elections do we vote in order of preference? Or do we just vote for one party?
> > >
> > > Just one party.
> >
> > Which is why it's not a good system, STV is much better.
>
> Was in order of preference in 1999 wasn't it? That one was entirely by post as well I think?
>
> I'm sure I remember my grandmother receiving a huge ballot paper in the post with an assortment of different parties and being totally befuddled what she was supposed to do with it...
Anyone who can learn how to pay with decimal currency after using LSD for half their life, can learn how to put a 1 next to their favourite party, and may be even a 2 next to their second favourite...
> Here's why I think Leadsom. Committed Brexiter but worked within the Government to see the result through, not a wrecker. Comes over very well in interviews, and in speeches, has a sense of humour. Has performed well in each role that she has been given. Understands business having worked in the corporate banking sector (although most here claim she actually cleaned the loos). Enough said really. I don't see any other candidate with anything like that combination of qualifications. I don't see how Farage would attack her either.
______________
I buy this. Leadsom is about the only Brexiteer that hasn't crashed and burnt since the referendum. Mainly by not having much to do with Brexit it had to be said, but the fact remains. She is as tough as nails. Farage won't be able to walk over her. She might be able to get Brexit through, even if the uplands will stay firmly in the shadows.
> > @kle4 said:
>
> > May led Tories led by 2%, exactly the same margin Morrison's Coalition leads on 2 PP over Labour this morning with most votes counted.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > As Opinium this morning showed there has now been a clear shift in favour of No Deal, more voters prefer No Deal to either EUref2 or Revoke and extension combined
>
> >
>
> > I remain confused as to why that means Boris, who cannot deliver no deal, will be able to hold onto those leads to the point of thinking he can win an election off the back of it. We failed (again), vote for us?
>
>
>
> If Boris takes over if May and her Deal fail again then it is simple, if he wins a majority on a manifesto commitment for No Deal then it is No Deal and maybe try and renegotiate with a technical solution replacing the backstop for a Canada style FTA after that election is won.
>
> It's the 'if he wins' bit I have issue with. Why will that happen? Unless no deal support is distributed perfectly for Tory seats their voting coalition will collapse backing a no deal, as a whole bunch of Tory remainers won't vote them and they need to hope for enough Labour no dealers to back them to make up for it in the right places.
400 seats voted Leave, just 200 voted Remain.
There are more Labour seats that voted Leave than Tory seats that voted Remain and given the vast majority of Tory and Brexit Party voters voted Leave bringing that coalition back together is vital if the Tories are to retain power
> > @brendan16 said:
> > > @HYUFD said:
> >
> > > > @AndyJS said:
> >
> > > > "Winning the wealthy and losing the workers: how Labor's Victorian vote transformed
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Results from Australia’s most progressive state show the party is at risk of losing its heartland"
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/may/19/winning-the-wealthy-and-losing-the-workers-how-labors-victorian-vote-transformed
> >
> > >
> >
> > > The Australian election was a reflection of what is happening across the western world, centre left parties losing skilled working class voters to conservatives but winning more graduate professionals from conservatives
> >
> >
> >
> > Indeed. But it seems like they often overestimate how many city-dwelling liberals there are, as we discussed yesterday, and tend to forget where the important marginals are located.
> >
> > Problem is the city dwelling liberals are all concentrated in their bubble and think everyone else thinks like them as they don’t engage outside their bubble and frankly sneer and look down on their supposed ‘inferiors’. Stupid, poorly educated, didn’t know what they were voting for and of course the final tactic when all else fails ‘racist’
> >
> > Far from being open minded many are the exact opposite.
>
> I wonder how much resentment fuels that attitude.
>
> It must be hard for someone from a middle class background who has been to a top university to be massively in debt and renting a room in Walthamstow to know that factory workers in Mansfield own their homes.
Indeed, a plumber who owns a semi detached property in the Midlands is now far more likely to vote Tory than an arts graduate who rents in London
> > @MaxPB said:
> >
> > He does. He says "it's racist to criticise Islam full stop".
>
> He doesn't say it shouldn't be "allowed".
Among young people today doesn't [anything bad] pretty much equate to "it shouldn't be allowed"?
> > @GIN1138 said:
> > > @logical_song said:
> > > > @justin124 said:
> > > > > @GIN1138 said:
> > > > > In the EU elections do we vote in order of preference? Or do we just vote for one party?
> > > >
> > > > Just one party.
> > >
> > > Which is why it's not a good system, STV is much better.
> >
> > Was in order of preference in 1999 wasn't it? That one was entirely by post as well I think?
> >
> > I'm sure I remember my grandmother receiving a huge ballot paper in the post with an assortment of different parties and being totally befuddled what she was supposed to do with it...
>
> Anyone who can learn how to pay with decimal currency after using LSD for half their life, can learn how to put a 1 next to their favourite party, and may be even a 2 next to their second favourite...
Well she won't need to now because she died last year at 94...
> > @MarqueeMark said:
> > > @another_richard said:
> > > > @brendan16 said:
> > > > > @HYUFD said:
> > > >
> > > > > > @AndyJS said:
> > > >
> > > > > > "Winning the wealthy and losing the workers: how Labor's Victorian vote transformed
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > Results from Australia’s most progressive state show the party is at risk of losing its heartland"
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/may/19/winning-the-wealthy-and-losing-the-workers-how-labors-victorian-vote-transformed
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > The Australian election was a reflection of what is happening across the western world, centre left parties losing skilled working class voters to conservatives but winning more graduate professionals from conservatives
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Indeed. But it seems like they often overestimate how many city-dwelling liberals there are, as we discussed yesterday, and tend to forget where the important marginals are located.
> > > >
> > > > Problem is the city dwelling liberals are all concentrated in their bubble and think everyone else thinks like them as they don’t engage outside their bubble and frankly sneer and look down on their supposed ‘inferiors’. Stupid, poorly educated, didn’t know what they were voting for and of course the final tactic when all else fails ‘racist’
> > > >
> > > > Far from being open minded many are the exact opposite.
> > >
> > > I wonder how much resentment fuels that attitude.
> > >
> > > It must be hard for someone from a middle class background who has been to a top university to be massively in debt and renting a room in Walthamstow to know that factory workers in Mansfield own their homes.
> >
> > So move to Mansfield.....
>
> That would mean admitting they failed in London and accepting they weren't as talented as they thought they were.
>
> Many would rather wallow in resentment and look for others to blame.
Do talented people live in London? The less talented elsewhere?
> > @Luckyguy1983 said:
> > Here's why I think Leadsom. Committed Brexiter but worked within the Government to see the result through, not a wrecker. Comes over very well in interviews, and in speeches, has a sense of humour. Has performed well in each role that she has been given. Understands business having worked in the corporate banking sector (although most here claim she actually cleaned the loos). Enough said really. I don't see any other candidate with anything like that combination of qualifications. I don't see how Farage would attack her either.
> ______________
>
> I buy this. Leadsom is about the only Brexiteer that hasn't crashed and burnt since the referendum. Mainly by not having much to do with Brexit it had to be said, but the fact remains. She is as tough as nails. Farage won't be able to walk over her. She might be able to get Brexit through, even if the uplands will stay firmly in the shadows.
>
And don't forget she has an IQ of 207. (Though admittedly that's partly because she was the one who invented the concept of IQ testing in the first place, and designed the tests.)
Worth remembering leaders can surprise on the upside (Julian the Apostate and Titus Manlius Torquatus stand out. The latter was effectively exiled by his obnoxious father for having a speech impediment, and returned to Rome to become one of its greatest [and most hard as nails] leaders).
> > @Luckyguy1983 said:
>
> > Here's why I think Leadsom. Committed Brexiter but worked within the Government to see the result through, not a wrecker. Comes over very well in interviews, and in speeches, has a sense of humour. Has performed well in each role that she has been given. Understands business having worked in the corporate banking sector (although most here claim she actually cleaned the loos). Enough said really. I don't see any other candidate with anything like that combination of qualifications. I don't see how Farage would attack her either.
>
>
>
> Yes. It has to be Leadsom. Cometh the hour ...
>
> > @Luckyguy1983 said:
>
> > Here's why I think Leadsom. Committed Brexiter but worked within the Government to see the result through, not a wrecker. Comes over very well in interviews, and in speeches, has a sense of humour. Has performed well in each role that she has been given. Understands business having worked in the corporate banking sector (although most here claim she actually cleaned the loos). Enough said really. I don't see any other candidate with anything like that combination of qualifications. I don't see how Farage would attack her either.
>
>
>
> Yes. It has to be Leadsom. Cometh the hour ...
>
> Even on PB, reaction in varied quarters to her potential candidature has ranged from mildly critical to very much in favour. I've been surprised.
You shouldn't be. How many other Nobel prize winners are there in parliament, after all?
> > @MarqueeMark said:
> > So move to Mansfield.....
>
> Indeed. The EAST MIDLANDS has much to offer.
It does. I had a nice flat in Nottingham near public transport and supermarkets, yet quiet, for £500/month. I miss it. My slightly smaller flat in Haslemere, with barely adequate public transport, is £1050/month.
I'm not a fan of HS2, but if it does get built I can see people happily living in the E Mids and commuting to jobs in London or elsewhere.
https://twitter.com/alstewitn/status/1130089822041858048
> > @williamglenn said:
> > > @MaxPB said:
> > >
> > > He does. He says "it's racist to criticise Islam full stop".
> >
> > He doesn't say it shouldn't be "allowed".
>
> Among young people today doesn't [anything bad] pretty much equate to "it shouldn't be allowed"?
>
>
I think that is a little unfair. Young people today drink far less than we did. I don't see many calling for it to be banned.
They also smoke much less dope, yet look on its unbanning far more favourably than does my generation.
Most can see there are problems for society with the vast and easy availability of porn and all other kind of Internet stuff. Yet they don't want it restricted. That would be the oldies.
>
> He literally says "it is racist to criticise Islam, full stop".
>
> That's a blasphemy law, and a harsh one at that. That's the end of the Enlightenment. In one sentence.
—————
His proposed sanction is throwing milkshake, not arrest, so you are projecting somewhat.
> > @ah009 said:
> > > @HYUFD said:
> > > https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1130079172968308736?s=20
> >
> > Good. Majorities on councils aren't good. Scotland has it far better than England.
>
> -------------------------
> I certainly don't think it good that many councils are as dominated by a single party as they are, some 100% for one party, as even if they try hard I think in the long term bad behaviour, laziness and entitlement will occur, but is there any proof that local councils in scotland are inherently better run as a result of no majorities?
My meaning was that Scotland has it better in that no councils are majority run. My contention is that this is better, for reasons including (but not limited to) how well run the council is.
I won't try to prove it, since I am partially talking about my strong preference, but if anyone has an idea of ways to measure part of this concept objectively, I'll listen. Waste (however defined), participation in elections, satisfaction, transparency? I'm sure there are 100 ways to look at it. But my central concern is that parties get used to working together so that compromise happens at the interparty level of politics, not intraparty and certainly not in the mind of the voter. I want a future where voters in all parts of the country can vote with their beliefs and know that even the smaller parties in a council or parliament will have *some* say. Majorities threaten that concept and shift the burden of compromise from the politician towards the voter.
As ever, there is a balance to be struck.
> https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1130116999164628993?s=21
I read yesterday the Tories are aiming to have the new leader in places by mid July?
No one would ever say criticising Catholicism, Methodism, Buddhism or Hinduism is racist. I am Catholic and it has nothing to do with my race - it’s a religious belief which luckily I have the right to leave if I wish wherever I live as it’s a free choice.
> > @Byronic said:
> >
> > He literally says "it is racist to criticise Islam, full stop".
> >
> > That's a blasphemy law, and a harsh one at that. That's the end of the Enlightenment. In one sentence.
> —————
>
> His proposed sanction is throwing milkshake, not arrest, so you are projecting somewhat. <
++++++
Don't be ridiculous. He clearly thinks racism is bad, and should not be heard - i.e. allowed. Do you dispute this?
He thinks ANY criticism of Islam is racist "full stop". Aside from his fatal confusion of Islam with race, the clearly and only implication of his statement is that any criticism of Islam should not be allowed, because it is automatically racist.
That is a blasphemy law. And a particularly dangerous one. Denying this is futile. I don't know why you are bothering.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/05/19/tories-need-bold-brexiteer-leader-delivers-step-forward-penny/
Of course every generation thinks it is different from the previous one, and the first to think or do certain things.
*For Morris Dancer's wallet.
> @kle4. Perhaps yes. I do find this blanket portrayal of the young as illiberal puritans a little irritating though. The casual and widespread outright racism and homophobia I grew up with is not a place I would ever want us to go back to.
> As ever, there is a balance to be struck.<
+++++
Fair enough. I agree. But the trouble with this rising generation is that many of them don't want a balance, they simply want free speech curtailed, and curtailed quite drastically. Especially with regards to race and religion, to the extent that no criticism of Islam should be allowed, as we see with that guy in the vid.
I can't work out if this is a failure of our education system: not teaching the values of the Enlightenment. The problem with that theory is that the same phenomenon is happening in America, Australia, etc, are their educations systems just like ours?
The alternative is that this is a new, serious paradigm shift: that we reached peak Free Speech in the 1960s, and we are now headed back to a closed, illiberal, much more censorious kind of world.
I find that prospect melancholy.
> CUK rally just finished. Will type up a full report later, although there was nothing as embarrassing as being asked to look in my hands. Heidi was clear that they're becoming the Revoke party though, so there is at least some difference from the LDs
So now we know what the Chukkers want to change - to change the country from a democracy to an autocracy.
I see Jezza has made another gnomic answer about a 2nd vote and Seamus has had to put everyone straight again.
Perhaps CHUK imagine a future in which they are the Government and Farage and 150 BP MPs are the Opposition.
> > @williamglenn said:
>
> > > @MaxPB said:
>
> > >
>
> > > He does. He says "it's racist to criticise Islam full stop".
>
> >
>
> > He doesn't say it shouldn't be "allowed".
>
>
>
> Among young people today doesn't [anything bad] pretty much equate to "it shouldn't be allowed"?
>
> Something that always perplexes me is way that the the rivalry and antipathy amongst generations seems to be so ill-informed. I'm generalising here, but you quite often see US "millenials" criticising "baby boomers" as privledged, bigotted, reactionary and so on. But it was those very same baby boomers who were the 60s counter culture, the hippies, the anti-war protesters, the free love drug-taking drop-outs who were protesting to make the world a better place.
>
> Of course every generation thinks it is different from the previous one, and the first to think or do certain things.
As usual, Paul Weller (pbah) had it sussed:
'Cause we've all grown up, and we've got our lives
And the values that we had once upon a time
Seem stupid now, 'cause the rent must be paid
And some bonds severed, and others made
Now I don't want you to get me wrong
Ideals are fine when you are young
And I must admit we had a laugh
But that's all it was and ever will be
> > @dixiedean said:
> > @kle4. Perhaps yes. I do find this blanket portrayal of the young as illiberal puritans a little irritating though. The casual and widespread outright racism and homophobia I grew up with is not a place I would ever want us to go back to.
> > As ever, there is a balance to be struck.<
>
> +++++
>
> Fair enough. I agree. But the trouble with this rising generation is that many of them don't want a balance, they simply want free speech curtailed, and curtailed quite drastically. Especially with regards to race and religion, to the extent that no criticism of Islam should be allowed, as we see with that guy in the vid.
>
> I can't work out if this is a failure of our education system: not teaching the values of the Enlightenment. The problem with that theory is that the same phenomenon is happening in America, Australia, etc, are their educations systems just like ours?
>
> The alternative is that this is a new, serious paradigm shift: that we reached peak Free Speech in the 1960s, and we are now headed back to a closed, illiberal, much more censorious kind of world.
>
> I find that prospect melancholy.
>
I think that the boundaries of what is "acceptable" in polite society is simply changing as it always has. For me, I am quite socially liberal, and am uncomfortable with the government banning anything for moral reasons without a great deal of evidence of serious harm or without a lot of thought.
I would be wary of drawing any broad conclusions. Squeaky wheels tend to get noticed.
...Sandbrook’s review does offer a silver lining to those who find him objectionable. “Before I started, the prospect of Rees-Mogg in Downing Street struck me as a ridiculous idea,” he wrote. “But if this is what it takes to stop him writing another book, then I think we should seriously consider paying the price.”
> > @Mauve said:
> > CUK rally just finished. Will type up a full report later, although there was nothing as embarrassing as being asked to look in my hands. Heidi was clear that they're becoming the Revoke party though, so there is at least some difference from the LDs
>
> So now we know what the Chukkers want to change - to change the country from a democracy to an autocracy.
---
Given a number of options, CHUK unerringly choose the worst.
Still, I'd love to hear Mauve's report from Remainer Central. If the CHUKers can't get a decent audience of ~ 100s in Cambridge, they're screwed.
This is what Jeremy can do in Cambridge:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ayUdCSI-h4
It will be interesting if the LD surge is real and that deliberate strategy backfired. Revoke is become a very real possibility indeed. The LDs, most of Labour and all the minor parties should support it based on their comments about Brexiting.
> @kle4. Perhaps yes. I do find this blanket portrayal of the young as illiberal puritans a little irritating though. The casual and widespread outright racism and homophobia I grew up with is not a place I would ever want us to go back to.
> As ever, there is a balance to be struck.
Given the number of stories written about it, you'd think there was rather more evidence for the theory. But it's common for the old to moan about the young (and I suppose for the young to ignore the old).
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/06/27/are-students-really-more-hostile-free-speech&ved=2ahUKEwj3lb6t76fiAhWEA2MBHdH6AAIQFjAAegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw1cJuuUUAKGzsZk1c_5q_r6&cshid=1558278437712
> I’ve closed out my lay of Jeremy Corbyn for next Prime Minister today at 18. I may lay him again if he shortens markedly.
He is at 21/1 on Betfair now. Seems almost impossible he could become PM next to be honest since surely Tory Mps won't let Theresa May fight another general election.
>
> Don't be ridiculous. He clearly thinks racism is bad, and should not be heard - i.e. allowed. Do you dispute this?
>
> He thinks ANY criticism of Islam is racist "full stop". Aside from his fatal confusion of Islam with race, the clearly and only implication of his statement is that any criticism of Islam should not be allowed, because it is automatically racist.
>
> That is a blasphemy law. And a particularly dangerous one. Denying this is futile. I don't know why you are bothering.
>
---------
You're showing massive confirmation bias, to the extent that you literally put words into someone's mouth to support your preconceived idea of their views as an example of the illiberal 'woke' left. I do dispute that you can infer from his words any support for blasphemy laws.
>
> I think that the boundaries of what is "acceptable" in polite society is simply changing as it always has. For me, I am quite socially liberal, and am uncomfortable with the government banning anything for moral reasons without a great deal of evidence of serious harm or without a lot of thought.
> I would be wary of drawing any broad conclusions. Squeaky wheels tend to get noticed.<
++++
I think you are dangerously complacent. The death of Free Speech is happening, right now, right in front of us. We already have a de facto blasphemy law protecting Islam - by the implicit threat of violence against anyone who criticises it.
We will get a REAL blasphemy law if the government caves in to pressure, and accepts the new definition of Islamophobia, which renders any criticism of "Muslimness", or its attributes, "racist" and "hateful".
Nor is this confined to Islam. Try going on Twitter and making critical remarks about the trans lobby, or even just remarks that aren't positive. Free speech is being truncated there, as well.
It is slow but it is happening.
> > @logical_song said:
> > > @justin124 said:
> > > > @GIN1138 said:
> > > > In the EU elections do we vote in order of preference? Or do we just vote for one party?
> > >
> > > Just one party.
> >
> > Which is why it's not a good system, STV is much better.
>
> Was in order of preference in 1999 wasn't it? That one was entirely by post as well I think?
>
> I'm sure I remember my grandmother receiving a huge ballot paper in the post with an assortment of different parties and being totally befuddled what she was supposed to do with it...
That may have been for the Police Commissioner Elections a few years ago!
A longwinded statement from Chuka on Marr, a half-arsed press release and a statement at a rally in Cambridge. I'm not expecting that to move the needle.
> CUK rally just finished. Will type up a full report later, although there was nothing as embarrassing as being asked to look in my hands. Heidi was clear that they're becoming the Revoke party though, so there is at least some difference from the LDs
>
> It's faintly hilarious that CUK have at least identified a point of differentiation from the other parties... and completely flunked its announcement.
>
> A longwinded statement from Chuka on Marr, a half-arsed press release and a statement at a rally in Cambridge. I'm not expecting that to move the needle.
Didn't Umunna himself say the referendum must be respected? He's simply a hypocrite now.
> > @AlastairMeeks said:
> > I’ve closed out my lay of Jeremy Corbyn for next Prime Minister today at 18. I may lay him again if he shortens markedly.
>
> He is at 21/1 on Betfair now. Seems almost impossible he could become PM next to be honest since surely Tory Mps won't let Theresa May fight another general election.
You don't think he could beat Boris?
> > @dixiedean said:
> >
> > I think that the boundaries of what is "acceptable" in polite society is simply changing as it always has. For me, I am quite socially liberal, and am uncomfortable with the government banning anything for moral reasons without a great deal of evidence of serious harm or without a lot of thought.
> > I would be wary of drawing any broad conclusions. Squeaky wheels tend to get noticed.<
>
> ++++
>
> I think you are dangerously complacent. The death of Free Speech is happening, right now, right in front of us. We already have a de facto blasphemy law protecting Islam - by the implicit threat of violence against anyone who criticises it.
>
> We will get a REAL blasphemy law if the government caves in to pressure, and accepts the new definition of Islamophobia, which renders any criticism of "Muslimness", or its attributes, "racist" and "hateful".
>
> Nor is this confined to Islam. Try going on Twitter and making critical remarks about the trans lobby, or even just remarks that aren't positive. Free speech is being truncated there, as well.
>
> It is slow but it is happening.
>
Yes it is.
> > @dixiedean said:
> > @kle4. Perhaps yes. I do find this blanket portrayal of the young as illiberal puritans a little irritating though. The casual and widespread outright racism and homophobia I grew up with is not a place I would ever want us to go back to.
> > As ever, there is a balance to be struck.
>
> Given the number of stories written about it, you'd think there was rather more evidence for the theory. But it's common for the old to moan about the young (and I suppose for the young to ignore the old).
>
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/06/27/are-students-really-more-hostile-free-speech&ved=2ahUKEwj3lb6t76fiAhWEA2MBHdH6AAIQFjAAegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw1cJuuUUAKGzsZk1c_5q_r6&cshid=1558278437712<;
+++++
Except the evidence says I am right. iGen - the rising young - are notably less positive about free speech.
https://images.app.goo.gl/nHF6AY3DyRjjXPRNA
Millennials are almost as censorious.
https://images.app.goo.gl/akZxYNkNcAVMxzis9
When you compare the results in terms of Labour , down 17 from the GE in 2017 to 24 .
The Lib Dems up 10 , Greens up 4 , add in Change UK , on 2 . Clearly Labour are seeing a mass exodus towards Remain parties .
A lot of attention seems to be on the Tories , which means Labour has avoided the media obsession with the BP and Tory problems but clearly they’re in deep trouble with their EU Brexit policy or non policy !
> > @dixiedean said:
> >
> > I think that the boundaries of what is "acceptable" in polite society is simply changing as it always has. For me, I am quite socially liberal, and am uncomfortable with the government banning anything for moral reasons without a great deal of evidence of serious harm or without a lot of thought.
> > I would be wary of drawing any broad conclusions. Squeaky wheels tend to get noticed.<
>
> ++++
>
> I think you are dangerously complacent. The death of Free Speech is happening, right now, right in front of us. We already have a de facto blasphemy law protecting Islam - by the implicit threat of violence against anyone who criticises it.
>
> We will get a REAL blasphemy law if the government caves in to pressure, and accepts the new definition of Islamophobia, which renders any criticism of "Muslimness", or its attributes, "racist" and "hateful".
>
> Nor is this confined to Islam. Try going on Twitter and making critical remarks about the trans lobby, or even just remarks that aren't positive. Free speech is being truncated there, as well.
>
> It is slow but it is happening.
>
I am all for free speech, but you seem to be objecting to being criticised for criticising something else.
There are tens of thousands of people criticising Islam on a daily basis (sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly), and hundreds criticising the trans lobby on a daily basis in the UK. Very few are limited by the state from doing so, and those that are would have to be inciting violence. Yes those people may then be criticised by other groups and may get called racist, hateful or bigoted (again sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly).
I stand by the 1st groups right to criticise whether they are right or wrong.
I also stand by the 2nd groups right to criticise those who criticise.
If either group threatens violence they should be dealt with.
If a private company like Twitter does not want one or both groups on their site that is broadly a commercial matter, not for the government.
The balance on free speech is about right in the UK and should not be changed.
> Rather confusingly YouGov apparently reporting a new poll on Europe Elects with the Lib Dems now at 18 equal to the BP for Westminster vote . This poll seems to be part of that big 9000 sample yesterday but only being reported now as GB only.
>
> When you compare the results in terms of Labour , down 17 from the GE in 2017 to 24 .
>
> The Lib Dems up 10 , Greens up 4 , add in Change UK , on 2 . Clearly Labour are seeing a mass exodus towards Remain parties .
>
> A lot of attention seems to be on the Tories , which means Labour has avoided the media obsession with the BP and Tory problems but clearly they’re in deep trouble with their EU Brexit policy or non policy !
> > @another_richard said:
> > > @MarqueeMark said:
> > > > @another_richard said:
> > > > > @brendan16 said:
> > > > > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > >
> > > > > > > @AndyJS said:
> > > > >
> > > > > > > "Winning the wealthy and losing the workers: how Labor's Victorian vote transformed
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > Results from Australia’s most progressive state show the party is at risk of losing its heartland"
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/may/19/winning-the-wealthy-and-losing-the-workers-how-labors-victorian-vote-transformed
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > The Australian election was a reflection of what is happening across the western world, centre left parties losing skilled working class voters to conservatives but winning more graduate professionals from conservatives
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Indeed. But it seems like they often overestimate how many city-dwelling liberals there are, as we discussed yesterday, and tend to forget where the important marginals are located.
> > > > >
> > > > > Problem is the city dwelling liberals are all concentrated in their bubble and think everyone else thinks like them as they don’t engage outside their bubble and frankly sneer and look down on their supposed ‘inferiors’. Stupid, poorly educated, didn’t know what they were voting for and of course the final tactic when all else fails ‘racist’
> > > > >
> > > > > Far from being open minded many are the exact opposite.
> > > >
> > > > I wonder how much resentment fuels that attitude.
> > > >
> > > > It must be hard for someone from a middle class background who has been to a top university to be massively in debt and renting a room in Walthamstow to know that factory workers in Mansfield own their homes.
> > >
> > > So move to Mansfield.....
> >
> > That would mean admitting they failed in London and accepting they weren't as talented as they thought they were.
> >
> > Many would rather wallow in resentment and look for others to blame.
>
> Do talented people live in London? The less talented elsewhere?
I'd suggest the overly educated and ambitious do so while the more practical and realistic don't.
London might be a good place for the highly talented but its a hard place for those who aren't and especially those who aren't as good as they think they are.
> > @El_Capitano said:
> > CUK rally just finished. Will type up a full report later, although there was nothing as embarrassing as being asked to look in my hands. Heidi was clear that they're becoming the Revoke party though, so there is at least some difference from the LDs
> >
> > It's faintly hilarious that CUK have at least identified a point of differentiation from the other parties... and completely flunked its announcement.
> >
> > A longwinded statement from Chuka on Marr, a half-arsed press release and a statement at a rally in Cambridge. I'm not expecting that to move the needle.
>
> Didn't Umunna himself say the referendum must be respected? He's simply a hypocrite now.
Yes but to be fair, Nigel Farage said there should be a second referendum when he thought he was about to lose the first one.
> > @rkrkrk said:
> > > @dixiedean said:
> > > @kle4. Perhaps yes. I do find this blanket portrayal of the young as illiberal puritans a little irritating though. The casual and widespread outright racism and homophobia I grew up with is not a place I would ever want us to go back to.
> > > As ever, there is a balance to be struck.
> >
> > Given the number of stories written about it, you'd think there was rather more evidence for the theory. But it's common for the old to moan about the young (and I suppose for the young to ignore the old).
> >
> > https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/06/27/are-students-really-more-hostile-free-speech&ved=2ahUKEwj3lb6t76fiAhWEA2MBHdH6AAIQFjAAegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw1cJuuUUAKGzsZk1c_5q_r6&cshid=1558278437712<;
>
> +++++
>
> Except the evidence says I am right. iGen - the rising young - are notably less positive about free speech.
>
> https://images.app.goo.gl/nHF6AY3DyRjjXPRNA
>
> Millennials are almost as censorious.
>
> https://images.app.goo.gl/akZxYNkNcAVMxzis9
My own view is that, while there clearly are generational differences about what is deemed important in life, and hence in cultures and behaviours, much of the research done is of dubious value, subject to framing, attribution and confirmation biases of those (older) people conducting it.
To the extent I see a difference, the differences are just that - differences, not better or worse. Not wanting to have a career but seeking a work/life balance skewed towards life is not better or worse - it is different. Wanting to know the social value of the work being asked of them may lead to some jobs being unfilled, but can lead to high productivity and greater innovation once a good reason for working has been found. Choosing to stay longer at home with parents rather than renting or buying your own place may be seen as less drive, or actually making better use of existing resources.
Most of what I have seen written fails to see the positives, and dwells on the negatives.
> > @RobD said:
> > Didn't Umunna himself say the referendum must be respected? He's simply a hypocrite now.
>
> Yes but to be fair, Nigel Farage said there should be a second referendum when he thought he was about to lose the first one.
Yes, but Umunna isn't saying that. He is saying Revoke (without any Referendum).
>
> My own view is that, while there clearly are generational differences about what is deemed important in life, and hence in cultures and behaviours, much of the research done is of dubious value, subject to framing, attribution and confirmation biases of those (older) people conducting it.
>
> To the extent I see a difference, the differences are just that - differences, not better or worse. Not wanting to have a career but seeking a work/life balance skewed towards life is not better or worse - it is different. Wanting to know the social value of the work being asked of them may lead to some jobs being unfilled, but can lead to high productivity and greater innovation once a good reason for working has been found. Choosing to stay longer at home with parents rather than renting or buying your own place may be seen as less drive, or actually making better use of existing resources.
>
> Most of what I have seen written fails to see the positives, and dwells on the negatives.<
+++++
I sincerely hope you are right, and I am just a grumbling and ageing Gen X-er; but, likewise, I sincerely fear you are wrong.
> > @DecrepitJohnL said:
> > > @RobD said:
> > > Didn't Umunna himself say the referendum must be respected? He's simply a hypocrite now.
> >
> > Yes but to be fair, Nigel Farage said there should be a second referendum when he thought he was about to lose the first one.
>
> Yes, but Umunna isn't saying that. He is saying Revoke (without any Referendum).
>
Given Leave cheated that's clearly right.
> Last few days of the European campaign. I think t/o will be up on previous stand alone Euros, but still fairly low: mid twenties.
>
> A counterargument is there are vastly more people signed up for postal ballots than there were the last time a European election happened without locals. About 20% of the electorate will likely have received their ballot by post and while it's possible they could just not return them, even in this year's locals it seems returns were decent; much higher than in-person. It has become difficult to get truly bad turnouts.
My bets are that turnout will be in the 30s. The numbers who are signed up for postals at every election will make a difference.
> > @YBarddCwsc said:
> > > @DecrepitJohnL said:
> > > > @RobD said:
> > > > Didn't Umunna himself say the referendum must be respected? He's simply a hypocrite now.
> > >
> > > Yes but to be fair, Nigel Farage said there should be a second referendum when he thought he was about to lose the first one.
> >
> > Yes, but Umunna isn't saying that. He is saying Revoke (without any Referendum).
> >
>
> Given Leave cheated that's clearly right.
Stop lying Mike. Leave didnt cheat.
> Schmidt is 100% wrong on the vision thing. All the truly great leaders had a vision - and one that others did not believe was achievable until the great leader persuaded them it was.
"Most of the political leaders [in continental Europe] are simply following nationalist and populist rhetoric, and that is for me not a democracy. A democracy, in my opinion, is a political leader developing a vision and then trying to convince the public opinion to follow his vision"
The words of Guy Verhofstadt above would agree with you, before he stopped trying to convince people.
Seems a bit weird , you’d expect the Euro to be higher.
In terms of the Euros it seems to be YouGov and Opinium in one camp v the rest .
The massive BP leads are with those two .
> > @MTimT said:
>
> >
> > My own view is that, while there clearly are generational differences about what is deemed important in life, and hence in cultures and behaviours, much of the research done is of dubious value, subject to framing, attribution and confirmation biases of those (older) people conducting it.
> >
> > To the extent I see a difference, the differences are just that - differences, not better or worse. Not wanting to have a career but seeking a work/life balance skewed towards life is not better or worse - it is different. Wanting to know the social value of the work being asked of them may lead to some jobs being unfilled, but can lead to high productivity and greater innovation once a good reason for working has been found. Choosing to stay longer at home with parents rather than renting or buying your own place may be seen as less drive, or actually making better use of existing resources.
> >
> > Most of what I have seen written fails to see the positives, and dwells on the negatives.<
>
> +++++
>
>
> I sincerely hope you are right, and I am just a grumbling and ageing Gen X-er; but, likewise, I sincerely fear you are wrong.
If this interests you, you might like Laloux's <i>Reinventing Organizations</i>. Two components - the nature of work is changing from what made our generation's world view apposite (mass production and standardization) to a knowledge economy where knowledge per se is a commodity and it is the ability to ask the right questions and know how to apply the knowledge that is important. This shifts the motivational model from external motivation and control, to intrinsic motivation and direction without control. Which in turn changes the organizational model from hierarchies and manage by objectives, to self-organizational and work for a purpose (greater than self).
So the environment is demanding a different style of work; the different style of work demands a different style of organization; and a different style of organization requires that leadership AND workers view the purpose of the organization differently in order to organize themselves more appropriately to be effective knowledge workers.
Brian Robertson <i>Holacracy</i> goes into even more detail.
In short, I think the next generation are shaping up to be just about right for the type of organization that will be required in tomorrow's economy, and considerably unfit for yesterday's economy. I do not lament that.
PS FWIW I am, I think, officially a baby-boomer
> > @YBarddCwsc said:
>>
> > Yes, but Umunna isn't saying that. He is saying Revoke (without any Referendum).
>
> Given Leave cheated that's clearly right.
Leave cheated and Remain cheated. Leave lied and Remain lied. LibDems cheat (see the fine in Ceredigion for exceeding election expenses or the money from Michael Brown never repaid) and LibDems lie (tuition fees).
It is endemic in the electoral process.
To cheat is of course one of those famous irregular verbs
I make a pledge with the best intentions that I cannot deliver,
You are not straight with the electorate,
He lies and cheats.
> > @GIN1138 said:
> > > @logical_song said:
> > > > @justin124 said:
> > > > > @GIN1138 said:
> > > > > In the EU elections do we vote in order of preference? Or do we just vote for one party?
> > > >
> > > > Just one party.
> > >
> > > Which is why it's not a good system, STV is much better.
> >
> > Was in order of preference in 1999 wasn't it? That one was entirely by post as well I think?
> >
> > I'm sure I remember my grandmother receiving a huge ballot paper in the post with an assortment of different parties and being totally befuddled what she was supposed to do with it...
>
> That may have been for the Police Commissioner Elections a few years ago!
1999 was not all postal. You are thinking of 2004 when it was all posral in six English regions. This had the effect of boosting turnout and LAB
> Bizarely the Lib Dems score 18 on Westminster Poll but only 17 for the Euros.
>
>
>
> Seems a bit weird , you’d expect the Euro to be higher.
>
>
>
>
>
> Nope, at every Euro election, the LDs (or Libs in '79 or Alliance during the '80s) score less at the Euros than at the subsequent General election.
Is that because of the Greens scoring well? Because it does seem surprising.
If the Tories think that treating the governance of this country is a matter for a popularity contest then they will be doomed - and deservedly so.
Two minutes later up pops Vince Cable to say he's talking shite and we could easily have a referendum before B-Day.
Remain Alliance this is not.
We then had Jezza confusing the hell out of everyone as he Jezplained what Labour's position is on the referendum.
> > @El_Capitano said:
>
> > CUK rally just finished. Will type up a full report later, although there was nothing as embarrassing as being asked to look in my hands. Heidi was clear that they're becoming the Revoke party though, so there is at least some difference from the LDs
>
> >
>
> > It's faintly hilarious that CUK have at least identified a point of differentiation from the other parties... and completely flunked its announcement.
>
> >
>
> > A longwinded statement from Chuka on Marr, a half-arsed press release and a statement at a rally in Cambridge. I'm not expecting that to move the needle.
>
>
>
> Didn't Umunna himself say the referendum must be respected? He's simply a hypocrite now.
>
> Perhaps he’s giving it the respect that he feels it deserves. He’s hardly alone in that.
By simply ignoring the results of one of the biggest democratic exercises the country has ever seen?
> Bizarely the Lib Dems score 18 on Westminster Poll but only 17 for the Euros.
>
>
>
> Seems a bit weird , you’d expect the Euro to be higher.
>
>
>
>
>
> Nope, at every Euro election, the LDs (or Libs in '79 or Alliance during the '80s) score less at the Euros than at the subsequent General election.
This is a different case . The Euros are basically a single issue election , there is a move from Lab to Lib Dems and Green . It could be that because of that some Labour voters are now so irritated with Labours stance that they’re now not differentiating between Westminster and Euro .
In effect there’s little churn between those . Because we’ve had lots of polling and a few weeks of people thinking about the Euros the Euro vote is becoming absorbed with Westminster .
> Perhaps he’s giving it the respect that he feels it deserves. He’s hardly alone in that.
-------
Chuka famously described ordinary people in a club as "worthless trash".
So, his view on the referendum (& apparently yours) is cut from the same unpleasant and elitist cloth.
I have sensitive places in my soul: I do not like that word "trash" applied to people.
Apply it to ordinary people, because you are richer or smarter or just think you are, and that is in my view an unforgivable sin.
> > @MikeSmithson said:
> > > @YBarddCwsc said:
> >>
> > > Yes, but Umunna isn't saying that. He is saying Revoke (without any Referendum).
> >
> > Given Leave cheated that's clearly right.
>
> Leave cheated and Remain cheated. Leave lied and Remain lied. LibDems cheat (see the fine in Ceredigion for exceeding election expenses or the money from Michael Brown never repaid) and LibDems lie (tuition fees).
>
> It is endemic in the electoral process.
>
> To cheat is of course one of those famous irregular verbs
>
> I make a pledge with the best intentions that I cannot deliver,
> You are not straight with the electorate,
> He lies and cheats.
I do something wrong, it is because of exigent circumstances
You do something wrong, it is because you are evil.
Indeed the more Corbyn talks the worse it gets for Labour . He’s the best recruiting sergeant for the Lib Dems .
> > @AlastairMeeks said:
> > I’ve closed out my lay of Jeremy Corbyn for next Prime Minister today at 18. I may lay him again if he shortens markedly.
>
> He is at 21/1 on Betfair now. Seems almost impossible he could become PM next to be honest since surely Tory Mps won't let Theresa May fight another general election.
Given the current numbers in Parliament, there is going to be real doubt whether the next Conservative leader becomes the next Prime Minister. I expect Jeremy Corbyn’s price will shorten at least once more because of that.
> > @MTimT said:
> > Schmidt is 100% wrong on the vision thing. All the truly great leaders had a vision - and one that others did not believe was achievable until the great leader persuaded them it was.
>
> "Most of the political leaders [in continental Europe] are simply following nationalist and populist rhetoric, and that is for me not a democracy. A democracy, in my opinion, is a political leader developing a vision and then trying to convince the public opinion to follow his vision"
>
> The words of Guy Verhofstadt above would agree with you, before he stopped trying to convince people.
Well, bugger me. I am forced to acknowledge that I agree with Guy Verhofstadt on something.