> @thecommissioner said: > I suspect you're confusing 'Brexit' with 'the result of the referendum'. The difference is possibly non-trivial. > > Merely voting for Brexit was meant to be a disaster. It's actually worked out quite well in terms of jobs, wages, the impact on government funding. > > Failing to honour it has put Farage back in the game and it won't be long before Sturgeon is either. > > There can be no justification for reneging on the 2016 vote and then telling the Scots they can't do the same over Sindy.
Exactly. It will be Remainers who would break the Union....
Two thirds of Tory members polled want the UK to leave the EU without a deal.
So roughly around 80000 voters are hoping to decide the future of the country by installing a no deal PM.
On the most important issue that’s faced the country in decades and will effect the UK for years to come this tiny minority of the country are trying to decide its future .
If we had a second referendum *and* Remain won, I do think there'd be another Scottish vote.
However, the very woefulness of the attempt (such as it was...) to leave the EU might persuade quite a few Scots that leaving the UK (and the EU at the same time) wouldn't necessarily be simple or beneficial.
Two thirds of Tory members polled want the UK to leave the EU without a deal.
So roughly around 80000 voters are hoping to decide the future of the country by installing a no deal PM.
On the most important issue that’s faced the country in decades and will effect the UK for years to come this tiny minority of the country are trying to decide its future .
> @A_View_From_Cumbria5 said: > > @AndyJS said: > > It's clear now that the whole art/science of polling has become much more difficult since people moved from landlines to mobile phones. One of the pundits on the Australian election show was making this point. > > Australia SHOULD be a lot easier to model. Because of compulsory voting there should not be any weighting issues which result from differential turnout.
> @nico67 said: > Two thirds of Tory members polled want the UK to leave the EU without a deal. > > So roughly around 80000 voters are hoping to decide the future of the country by installing a no deal PM. > > On the most important issue that’s faced the country in decades and will effect the UK for years to come this tiny minority of the country are trying to decide its future . > >
I have an easy solution to this problem. Sign the WA.
> > One has to applaud her honesty. Let's just strip away the flummery that Brexit presents any social or economic benefits and have an honest debate.
>
> >
>
> > For a significant proportion of the “fuck business” pro-Farage Brexit electorate it won’t matter. Their pensions and state payments will not be affected by Brexit. Perhaps some people will suffer but it won’t be them and sometimes you have to break some eggs. They’re perfectly entitled to vote like that but some self-awareness might be a good thing.
>
>
>
> I thought Leave voters were bloated capitalists, who were all twirling their moustaches at the prospect of making the workers stew grass.
>
> Yes, a significant element of the Leave intelligentsia believe that the masses have had it too easy in recent centuries and the return to a more feudal arrangement is desirable. The EU was seen as a significant obstacle in the implementation of this project. However, I wouldn't say this represents anywhere near the majority of Leave voters, not least because such an agenda needed to be kept secret from them.
Yet it was the Remain side which described higher wages as not a good thing.
Higher wages in the context of 1970s-style inflation would certainly be problematic.
> @RobD said: > > @noneoftheabove said: > > > @RobD said: > > > > @noneoftheabove said: > > > > > @GIN1138 said: > > > > > > @HYUFD said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Coalition 51.8% Labor 48.2% on preferences. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 52/48 -this needs a "confirmatory" election now just in case Aussies didn't actually know what they were voting for... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you presumably respect the work of the UK parliament democratically elected in 2017 as the country knew exactly what we wanted.....surely anyone criticising May et al should be seen as acting against the will of the people? > > > > > > 85% voted for parties that supported Brexit. > > > > 82% voted for parties supporting a Brexit deal > > 1.8% voted for parties supporting no deal > > > > So as soon as leavers can agree a deal we can move on. > > A shame a party that supports the deal has refused to vote for it three times in a row.
It is a shame. And a disgrace that the ERG viciously trashed the deal within minutes of it being published, so before they had even read it and without any strategic thoughts to how that may play out.
Watch the Tory leadership contest make the same mistakes, promising things they cannot deliver with no thoughts of how that plays out over the months and years to come.
> @MarqueeMark said: > > @thecommissioner said: > > I suspect you're confusing 'Brexit' with 'the result of the referendum'. The difference is possibly non-trivial. > > > > Merely voting for Brexit was meant to be a disaster. It's actually worked out quite well in terms of jobs, wages, the impact on government funding. > > > > Failing to honour it has put Farage back in the game and it won't be long before Sturgeon is either. > > > > There can be no justification for reneging on the 2016 vote and then telling the Scots they can't do the same over Sindy. > > Exactly. It will be Remainers who would break the Union....
That’s hilarious ! Really ! The biggest threat to the Union is Brexit . Especially when a no deal nutjob takes over as PM.
Leavers polled have clearly shown what they think of the UK, couldn’t care less if NI and Scotland went .
Remainers voted to keep the UK together . Leavers need to start taking responsibility for their vote instead of trying to pin the current car crash onto Remainers .
> @nico67 said: > Two thirds of Tory members polled want the UK to leave the EU without a deal. > > So roughly around 80000 voters are hoping to decide the future of the country by installing a no deal PM. > > On the most important issue that’s faced the country in decades and will effect the UK for years to come this tiny minority of the country are trying to decide its future .
It's odd isn't it. Back in the 70's it was the Tories and Libs who were campaigning hardest FOR joining the EEC. There's a picture of Mrs T somewhere wearing a rather fetching Vote Yes sweater. Heseltine and I can't be the only people who recall that joint campaign!
> > > Is 'I don't like Farage but' (or similar) going to be the PB phrase of 2019?
> > >
> > > Followed by something along the lines of “I always said he was a formidable operator... “ while hoping no one checks comments from 2012-2016 when he was supposedly a massive drag on the UKIP/leave campaigns
> >
> > I didn’t like Farage but, even then underestimated the damage he did to the United Kingdom.
>
> I don't like Farage but at least, as the personification of everything we're fighting against, he's a useful motivator to those of us on the opposite side to him.
Farage is the folk-devil that the pro-EU left require to motivate their supporters.
> @nico67 said: > Two thirds of Tory members polled want the UK to leave the EU without a deal. > > So roughly around 80000 voters are hoping to decide the future of the country by installing a no deal PM. > > On the most important issue that’s faced the country in decades and will effect the UK for years to come this tiny minority of the country are trying to decide its future . > >
Short of a successful GE, any new No Dealer faces the same problem of Parliamentary numbers.
> @OldKingCole said: > > @nico67 said: > > Two thirds of Tory members polled want the UK to leave the EU without a deal. > > > > So roughly around 80000 voters are hoping to decide the future of the country by installing a no deal PM. > > > > On the most important issue that’s faced the country in decades and will effect the UK for years to come this tiny minority of the country are trying to decide its future . > > It's odd isn't it. Back in the 70's it was the Tories and Libs who were campaigning hardest FOR joining the EEC. There's a picture of Mrs T somewhere wearing a rather fetching Vote Yes sweater. > Heseltine and I can't be the only people who recall that joint campaign!
I'm sure two thirds of Tory members would support joining the EEC. That's not on offer, however.
People go on about richer or poorer but even if that was true, would you prefer to be a bit richer and live in Venezuela or be a bit poorer ,have democracy and live in the UK ?
LOL , democracy in the UK, cuckoo. We can see what happens when the public vote democratically, politicians just block it. UK is anything but democratic, a fixed vote every so many years between two sets of lying wasters who take turns at enriching themselves and their chums whilst the stupid sheeple think they live in a democracy.
> @rottenborough said: > It seems to have been totally forgotten that the No Deal the Tory pensioners are slavering over results in a hard border in NI. > > That will end well for the Union. <
+++++
Quite.
No Deal is still very very difficult, if not politically impossible. The road to Brexit is still strewn with obstacles, however keen you are to take it.
The good thing about T May resigning is that the new Tory leadership candidates will HAVE to tell everyone their plans for squaring this circle: the near impossibility of Brexit. Because it has to be squared.
Boris won't get away with waffle. I hope we will have TV debates.
> @noneoftheabove said: > > @RobD said: > > > @noneoftheabove said: > > > > @RobD said: > > > > > @noneoftheabove said: > > > > > > @GIN1138 said: > > > > > > > @HYUFD said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Coalition 51.8% Labor 48.2% on preferences. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 52/48 -this needs a "confirmatory" election now just in case Aussies didn't actually know what they were voting for... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you presumably respect the work of the UK parliament democratically elected in 2017 as the country knew exactly what we wanted.....surely anyone criticising May et al should be seen as acting against the will of the people? > > > > > > > > 85% voted for parties that supported Brexit. > > > > > > 82% voted for parties supporting a Brexit deal > > > 1.8% voted for parties supporting no deal > > > > > > So as soon as leavers can agree a deal we can move on. > > > > A shame a party that supports the deal has refused to vote for it three times in a row. > > It is a shame. And a disgrace that the ERG viciously trashed the deal within minutes of it being published, so before they had even read it and without any strategic thoughts to how that may play out. > > Watch the Tory leadership contest make the same mistakes, promising things they cannot deliver with no thoughts of how that plays out over the months and years to come.
The ERG were condemning the Deal BEFORE it had been published.
There was nothing in it which they objected to - what they couldn't accept was its existence.
The Liberal/National Coalition is currently on 4.7 million votes, which is a reminder of how few people live in Australia compared to many other places.
> @Foxy said: > > @nico67 said: > > Two thirds of Tory members polled want the UK to leave the EU without a deal. > > > > So roughly around 80000 voters are hoping to decide the future of the country by installing a no deal PM. > > > > On the most important issue that’s faced the country in decades and will effect the UK for years to come this tiny minority of the country are trying to decide its future . > > > > > > Short of a successful GE, any new No Dealer faces the same problem of Parliamentary numbers. > > To coin a phrase: Nothing Has Changed!
They can run down the clock on this and any further extension.
> @OldKingCole said: > > @nico67 said: > > Two thirds of Tory members polled want the UK to leave the EU without a deal. > > > > So roughly around 80000 voters are hoping to decide the future of the country by installing a no deal PM. > > > > On the most important issue that’s faced the country in decades and will effect the UK for years to come this tiny minority of the country are trying to decide its future . > > It's odd isn't it. Back in the 70's it was the Tories and Libs who were campaigning hardest FOR joining the EEC. There's a picture of Mrs T somewhere wearing a rather fetching Vote Yes sweater. > Heseltine and I can't be the only people who recall that joint campaign!
The extra EC and the missing U give a clue as to what has changed.
> @OldKingCole said: > > @nico67 said: > > Two thirds of Tory members polled want the UK to leave the EU without a deal. > > > > So roughly around 80000 voters are hoping to decide the future of the country by installing a no deal PM. > > > > On the most important issue that’s faced the country in decades and will effect the UK for years to come this tiny minority of the country are trying to decide its future . > > It's odd isn't it. Back in the 70's it was the Tories and Libs who were campaigning hardest FOR joining the EEC. There's a picture of Mrs T somewhere wearing a rather fetching Vote Yes sweater. > Heseltine and I can't be the only people who recall that joint campaign!
Even more amazing it was the Tories who pushed the EU into its eastwards expansion to counter Russia . The Tories and primarily Thatcher were the architects of the single market .
> It seems to have been totally forgotten that the No Deal the Tory pensioners are slavering over results in a hard border in NI.
>
> That will end well for the Union. <
+++++
Quite.
No Deal is still very very difficult, if not politically impossible. The road to Brexit is still strewn with obstacles, however keen you are to take it.
The good thing about T May resigning is that the new Tory leadership candidates will HAVE to tell everyone their plans for squaring this circle: the near impossibility of Brexit. Because it has to be squared.
Boris won't get away with waffle. I hope we will have TV debates.
I hope you are right, but fear you are not. Boris will wiffle-waffle about going back to Brussels, sword in hand, to get a better deal.
> @OldKingCole said: > > @nico67 said: > > Two thirds of Tory members polled want the UK to leave the EU without a deal. > > > > So roughly around 80000 voters are hoping to decide the future of the country by installing a no deal PM. > > > > On the most important issue that’s faced the country in decades and will effect the UK for years to come this tiny minority of the country are trying to decide its future . > > It's odd isn't it. Back in the 70's it was the Tories and Libs who were campaigning hardest FOR joining the EEC. There's a picture of Mrs T somewhere wearing a rather fetching Vote Yes sweater. > Heseltine and I can't be the only people who recall that joint campaign!
It was only the Grumpy Left like Peter Shore who were against the EEC. Labour was largely pro-EEC too.
> @rottenborough said: > It seems to have been totally forgotten that the No Deal the Tory pensioners are slavering over results in a hard border in NI. > > That will end well for the Union.
Do you think they're bothered if the Irish border is a bit harder ?
Putting their pensions and freebies first in line for any cuts in the next recession would be of more concern to them.
> @another_richard said: > > @OldKingCole said: > > > @nico67 said: > > > Two thirds of Tory members polled want the UK to leave the EU without a deal. > > > > > > So roughly around 80000 voters are hoping to decide the future of the country by installing a no deal PM. > > > > > > On the most important issue that’s faced the country in decades and will effect the UK for years to come this tiny minority of the country are trying to decide its future . > > > > It's odd isn't it. Back in the 70's it was the Tories and Libs who were campaigning hardest FOR joining the EEC. There's a picture of Mrs T somewhere wearing a rather fetching Vote Yes sweater. > > Heseltine and I can't be the only people who recall that joint campaign! > > The extra EC and the missing U give a clue as to what has changed.
> @MarqueeMark said: Exactly. It will be Remainers who would break the Union....
Really?
'Scotland won't be independent within EU, says Farage
As anti-racist protesters chanted outside the venue, Farage told cheering supporters at a rally in Edinburgh: “If you’re genuinely a nationalist lend your vote to the Brexit party, let’s get out of the EU and then have an honest debate about independence.”'
> Two thirds of Tory members polled want the UK to leave the EU without a deal.
>
> So roughly around 80000 voters are hoping to decide the future of the country by installing a no deal PM.
>
> On the most important issue that’s faced the country in decades and will effect the UK for years to come this tiny minority of the country are trying to decide its future .
>
>
I have an easy solution to this problem. Sign the WA.
> @RobD said: > > @OldKingCole said: > > > @nico67 said: > > > Two thirds of Tory members polled want the UK to leave the EU without a deal. > > > > > > So roughly around 80000 voters are hoping to decide the future of the country by installing a no deal PM. > > > > > > On the most important issue that’s faced the country in decades and will effect the UK for years to come this tiny minority of the country are trying to decide its future . > > > > It's odd isn't it. Back in the 70's it was the Tories and Libs who were campaigning hardest FOR joining the EEC. There's a picture of Mrs T somewhere wearing a rather fetching Vote Yes sweater. > > Heseltine and I can't be the only people who recall that joint campaign! > > I'm sure two thirds of Tory members would support joining the EEC. That's not on offer, however.
You’re joking .The Tory Membership are now anti everything to do with the EU. They won’t be happy till the UK is an isolated rock, but will be happy to bend over and take it from Trump .
In their eyes being fucked by the USA is preferable to cooperating with Europe .
> > > Boris won't get away with waffle. I hope we will have TV debates. > > I hope you are right, but fear you are not. Boris will wiffle-waffle about going back to Brussels, sword in hand, to get a better deal.<
++++
I don't think that will be enough, not any more. People want concrete answers. That's why Corbyn's *say nothing* strategy is now in tatters. Boris will have to propose solutions.
Even if he doesn't, and he gets away with flim flam, as you say, then the moment he sits down in Number 10 the same bucket of f*ck that confronted Ms May will confront him. He will have to come up with plausible answers, or look very stupid, very quickly.
> @noneoftheabove said: > > So as soon as leavers can agree a deal we can move on.
Or ... it is certainly open to Remainers to explain how the benefits of Eu membership would be shared more equally in the future, or how the Eu could be reformed to be more democratic.
What would you be doing for left-behind Stoke or Ebbw Vale or Mansfield, if we were to Remain?
After all, there is a sizeable chunk of the population (perhaps a majority) that would be interested in staying in a Reformed EU.
There is no reason why Remainers need just complain from the sidelines. They could take the initiative.
> @MarqueeMark said: > > @OldKingCole said: > > > @nico67 said: > > > Two thirds of Tory members polled want the UK to leave the EU without a deal. > > > > > > So roughly around 80000 voters are hoping to decide the future of the country by installing a no deal PM. > > > > > > On the most important issue that’s faced the country in decades and will effect the UK for years to come this tiny minority of the country are trying to decide its future . > > > > It's odd isn't it. Back in the 70's it was the Tories and Libs who were campaigning hardest FOR joining the EEC. There's a picture of Mrs T somewhere wearing a rather fetching Vote Yes sweater. > > Heseltine and I can't be the only people who recall that joint campaign! > > It was only the Grumpy Left like Peter Shore who were against the EEC. Labour was largely pro-EEC too.
Tony Benn, too. Leader of the faction to which Jeremy Corbyn belonged.
> @rottenborough said: > It seems to have been totally forgotten that the No Deal the Tory pensioners are slavering over results in a hard border in NI. > > That will end well for the Union.
One of a number of points that mean "No Deal" is not the end to the Brexit farce, but rather the beginning of a much more divisive set of arguments.
Anecdata: Brexit Party stall at Leicester Clocktower this AM, next to the Hare Krishnas and some Bible bashing Evangelicals. Half a dozen middle aged middle class activists talking mostly to each other, with only a very few interested shoppers. The only party stall that I have seen (there was an Open Europe generic anti Brexit one last week), but looks like low interest and turnout to me.
> @OldKingCole said: > > @MarqueeMark said: > > > @OldKingCole said: > > > > @nico67 said: > > > > Two thirds of Tory members polled want the UK to leave the EU without a deal. > > > > > > > > So roughly around 80000 voters are hoping to decide the future of the country by installing a no deal PM. > > > > > > > > On the most important issue that’s faced the country in decades and will effect the UK for years to come this tiny minority of the country are trying to decide its future . > > > > > > It's odd isn't it. Back in the 70's it was the Tories and Libs who were campaigning hardest FOR joining the EEC. There's a picture of Mrs T somewhere wearing a rather fetching Vote Yes sweater. > > > Heseltine and I can't be the only people who recall that joint campaign! > > > > It was only the Grumpy Left like Peter Shore who were against the EEC. Labour was largely pro-EEC too. > > Tony Benn, too. Leader of the faction to which Jeremy Corbyn belonged.
> @Morris_Dancer said: > Hmm. > > If we had a second referendum *and* Remain won, I do think there'd be another Scottish vote. > > However, the very woefulness of the attempt (such as it was...) to leave the EU might persuade quite a few Scots that leaving the UK (and the EU at the same time) wouldn't necessarily be simple or beneficial.
Otoh the woefulness of the political class attempting to leave the EU may give many encouragement.
> Boris won't get away with waffle. I hope we will have TV debates.
>
> I hope you are right, but fear you are not. Boris will wiffle-waffle about going back to Brussels, sword in hand, to get a better deal.<
++++
I don't think that will be enough, not any more. People want concrete answers. That's why Corbyn's *say nothing* strategy is now in tatters. Boris will have to propose solutions.
Even if he doesn't, and he gets away with flim flam, as you say, then the moment he sits down in Number 10 the same bucket of f*ck that confronted Ms May will confront him. He will have to come up with plausible answers, or look very stupid, very quickly.
Even Harold Wilson would have trouble thinking of a clever way out of this one. Boris has no chance.
> Boris won't get away with waffle. I hope we will have TV debates.
That reminds me of the Ken Clarke v Iain Duncan Smith leadership debate in which IDS denied that he wanted to leave the EU.
Wow. If you play that without sound IDS looks astonishingly smug. I'll play it with sound later - perhaps he'll come across as more humble and measured if you can actually hear what he's saying.
It was only the Grumpy Left like Peter Shore who were against the EEC. Labour was largely pro-EEC too.
Um, are you sure about that? The trades unions were boycotting the European institutions, quite a few of the MPs were vocally agin it and had been for some time, when Foot became leader (1981) the party swung hard anti-EEC, leaving it was in the 1983 Manifesto, and the pro-EEC MPs were so fed up they went and founded their own party.
> @williamglenn said: > > @MarqueeMark said: > > > > It was only the Grumpy Left like Peter Shore who were against the EEC. Labour was largely pro-EEC too. > ----- > > Peter Shore, Michael Foot, Barbara Castle, Tony Benn, Eric Varley... The Labour conference voted almost 2:1 against membership in 1975. >
Indeed, and Wilson had called the referendum to attempt to heal his divided Party. Despite the decisive result it was more than a couple of decades before Labour was intact enough to win another GE.
> @Byronic said: > > @rottenborough said: > > > @rottenborough said: > > > > > > > Boris won't get away with waffle. I hope we will have TV debates. > > > > I hope you are right, but fear you are not. Boris will wiffle-waffle about going back to Brussels, sword in hand, to get a better deal.< > > ++++ > > I don't think that will be enough, not any more. People want concrete answers. That's why Corbyn's *say nothing* strategy is now in tatters. Boris will have to propose solutions. > > Even if he doesn't, and he gets away with flim flam, as you say, then the moment he sits down in Number 10 the same bucket of f*ck that confronted Ms May will confront him. He will have to come up with plausible answers, or look very stupid,
The whole political system is fucked.. Xenophobia may well be decisive in the uk for some time to come. We deserve the politicians we vote for.
> Even Harold Wilson would have trouble thinking of a clever way out of this one. Boris has no chance. <
+++++
But he will HAVE to come up with something serious and do-able. He will be prime minister, not a Telegraph columnist vaguely opining. So what will his proposal BE?
My guess: he will "call the EU's bluff" and go for No Deal, saying We will never put a border across Ireland, and promising to sign a Treaty to that effect. Or something like that.
Yes the large majority of pensioners that helped deliver Brexit and robbing their grandchildren of freedom of movement will now try to force a no deal to just stick the knife in .
One wonders , all that guff about grannie and grand dad would do anything for the grandkids. Really!
> @logical_song said: > > @Stark_Dawning said: > > Is anyone still claiming that Brexit offers any benefits at all? If so what? > > We'll be worse off for 30 years but apparently it's still worth it.
It’s a spiritual rather than material benefit, apparently. Shame it was secured by pandering to xenophobia.
> If we had a second referendum *and* Remain won, I do think there'd be another Scottish vote.
>
> However, the very woefulness of the attempt (such as it was...) to leave the EU might persuade quite a few Scots that leaving the UK (and the EU at the same time) wouldn't necessarily be simple or beneficial.
Otoh the woefulness of the political class attempting to leave the EU may give many encouragement.
> @YBarddCwsc said: > > @noneoftheabove said: > > > > So as soon as leavers can agree a deal we can move on. > > Or ... it is certainly open to Remainers to explain how the benefits of Eu membership would be shared more equally in the future, or how the Eu could be reformed to be more democratic. > > What would you be doing for left-behind Stoke or Ebbw Vale or Mansfield, if we were to Remain? > > After all, there is a sizeable chunk of the population (perhaps a majority) that would be interested in staying in a Reformed EU. > > There is no reason why Remainers need just complain from the sidelines. They could take the initiative. >
In what way do you think Brexit will benefit help the "left behind" of Stoke, Ebbw Vale and Mansfield?
Do you expect the Potterries and Coal mines to reopen?
> @Foxy said: > > @YBarddCwsc said: > > > @noneoftheabove said: > > > > > > So as soon as leavers can agree a deal we can move on. > > > > Or ... it is certainly open to Remainers to explain how the benefits of Eu membership would be shared more equally in the future, or how the Eu could be reformed to be more democratic. > > > > What would you be doing for left-behind Stoke or Ebbw Vale or Mansfield, if we were to Remain? > > > > After all, there is a sizeable chunk of the population (perhaps a majority) that would be interested in staying in a Reformed EU. > > > > There is no reason why Remainers need just complain from the sidelines. They could take the initiative. > > > > In what way do you think Brexit will benefit help the "left behind" of Stoke, Ebbw Vale and Mansfield? > > Do you expect the Potterries and Coal mines to reopen? >
It won’t but as long as everyone else is miserable aswell then they’ll feel better !The problems the UK has are down to the UK but enough were duped to just scapegoat the EU.
> @Byronic said: > > @rottenborough said: > > > Even Harold Wilson would have trouble thinking of a clever way out of this one. Boris has no chance. < > > +++++ > > But he will HAVE to come up with something serious and do-able. He will be prime minister, not a Telegraph columnist vaguely opining. So what will his proposal BE? > > My guess: he will "call the EU's bluff" and go for No Deal, saying We will never put a border across Ireland, and promising to sign a Treaty to that effect. Or something like that. > >
There has to be a border somewhere and if not Ireland, then a border down the Irish Sea will mortally offend the DUP and perhaps lead to a reunited Ireland and more immediately to JCICIPM.
> @nico67 said: > Yes the large majority of pensioners that helped deliver Brexit and robbing their grandchildren of freedom of movement will now try to force a no deal to just stick the knife in . > > One wonders , all that guff about grannie and grand dad would do anything for the grandkids. Really! > >
It might be more difficult to get a potato picking job in Bulgaria.
> @rottenborough said: > It seems to have been totally forgotten that the No Deal the Tory pensioners are slavering over results in a hard border in NI. > > That will end well for the Union.
I think at least one (of the outsiders) in the Tory contest will push the accept hard border in NI card to get the rest of the ERG wishlist through. In a crowded field differentiation is needed and a non unicorn solution could be rare. Losing NI and Scotland may play well with some of cynical Tories who see the electoral benefits in that.
> @nico67 said: > Yes the large majority of pensioners that helped deliver Brexit and robbing their grandchildren of freedom of movement will now try to force a no deal to just stick the knife in . > > One wonders , all that guff about grannie and grand dad would do anything for the grandkids. Really! > > I don't think people were motivated to vote by a desire to cause problems for their grandchildren.
That's one of the worst arguments that emerged from this debate.
It's clear now that the whole art/science of polling has become much more difficult since people moved from landlines to mobile phones. One of the pundits on the Australian election show was making this point.
Woah there, range rider! IIRC the UK has almost entirely abandoned telephone polling in favour of online panel polling.
Let's discuss the meaning of the word "accuracy"
The polls prior to the election were Coalition 48.5%, Lab 51.5% yes? If @HYUFD is correct and the result is Coalition 51.8% Lab 48.2%, then that's a mean absolute error of 3.3 percentage points. I think the mean absolute error threshold for UK elections is about 3%: (above that is unacceptable). So it's on the edge of what we would accept and indeed we've had worse: the UK 2014 Scottish Referendum mean absolute error was IIRC much bigger.
However, if we define "accuracy" as "correctly predicts the winner", then yes: the polls were appallingly bad.
It's one of my bugbears: absolute numbers, percentages, thresholds. One needs all three to get to grips with a situation. A realisation of how accurate polls are would have helped consderably in this and many other cases: if the lead is less than, say, 5%, then polls stop being helpful. This understanding is necessary in the event of a possible 2nd UK referendum.
Far too many politicians have peddled the left behind guff .
Just call a spade a spade . They just wanted someone to blame for their crap lives so immigrants were the easy target delivered on a plate by the hatemonger Farage .
In the meantime non EU migration has gone through the roof whilst EU nationals leave in droves .
Amazing how quiet Farage and co have been on this . Brits lose their freedom of movement rights and for what !
> @SquareRoot said: > > @Byronic said: > > > @rottenborough said: > > > > @rottenborough said: > > > > > > > > > > > Boris won't get away with waffle. I hope we will have TV debates. > > > > > > I hope you are right, but fear you are not. Boris will wiffle-waffle about going back to Brussels, sword in hand, to get a better deal.< > > > > ++++ > > > > I don't think that will be enough, not any more. People want concrete answers. That's why Corbyn's *say nothing* strategy is now in tatters. Boris will have to propose solutions. > > > > Even if he doesn't, and he gets away with flim flam, as you say, then the moment he sits down in Number 10 the same bucket of f*ck that confronted Ms May will confront him. He will have to come up with plausible answers, or look very stupid, > > > The whole political system is fucked.. Xenophobia may well be decisive in the uk for some time to come. We deserve the politicians we vote for.
Except that poll after poll finds that not to be true.
> @Sean_F said: > > @nico67 said: > > Yes the large majority of pensioners that helped deliver Brexit and robbing their grandchildren of freedom of movement will now try to force a no deal to just stick the knife in . > > > > One wonders , all that guff about grannie and grand dad would do anything for the grandkids. Really! > > > > > I don't think people were motivated to vote by a desire to cause problems for their grandchildren. > > That's one of the worst arguments that emerged from this debate. >
Why . Clearly their grandchildren wanted to stay , and grannie and grand pa didn’t take into account that . Some did obviously , I saw a few pensioners interviewed who said they didn’t want to narrow the opportunities and freedoms of their grand kids and voted Remain. The Leave pensioners can wipe their own arses as far as I’m concerned as they told those who work in social care to take a hike .
> @YBarddCwsc said: > > @noneoftheabove said: > > > > So as soon as leavers can agree a deal we can move on. > > Or ... it is certainly open to Remainers to explain how the benefits of Eu membership would be shared more equally in the future, or how the Eu could be reformed to be more democratic. > > What would you be doing for left-behind Stoke or Ebbw Vale or Mansfield, if we were to Remain? > > After all, there is a sizeable chunk of the population (perhaps a majority) that would be interested in staying in a Reformed EU. > > There is no reason why Remainers need just complain from the sidelines. They could take the initiative. >
> @YBarddCwsc said: > > @AndyJS said: > > According to this comment on PollBludger a few hours ago, the odds on the Coalition in Australia must have risen to 18 at one point: > > Labor lost an unlosable election. > > Another very salutary reminder about the dangers of trusting polls. >
I'm very sceptical about most of the Euro election polls.
> @nico67 said: > Far too many politicians have peddled the left behind guff . > > Just call a spade a spade . They just wanted someone to blame for their crap lives so immigrants were the easy target delivered on a plate by the hatemonger Farage . > > In the meantime non EU migration has gone through the roof whilst EU nationals leave in droves . > > Amazing how quiet Farage and co have been on this . Brits lose their freedom of movement rights and for what !
As usual a PB Remainer has no idea about what he's claiming:
' Looking now at how the figures have changed since the EU referendum (which took place on 23 June 2016), between January to March 2016 and January to March 2019:
UK nationals working in the UK increased by 779,000 to 28.94 million
non-UK nationals from the EU working in the UK increased by 237,000 to 2.38 million
non-UK nationals from outside the EU working in the UK increased by 130,000 to 1.32 million '
> @nico67 said: > > @Sean_F said: > > > @nico67 said: > > > Yes the large majority of pensioners that helped deliver Brexit and robbing their grandchildren of freedom of movement will now try to force a no deal to just stick the knife in . > > > > > > One wonders , all that guff about grannie and grand dad would do anything for the grandkids. Really! > > > > > > > > I don't think people were motivated to vote by a desire to cause problems for their grandchildren. > > > > That's one of the worst arguments that emerged from this debate. > > > > Why . Clearly their grandchildren wanted to stay , and grannie and grand pa didn’t take into account that . Some did obviously , I saw a few pensioners interviewed who said they didn’t want to narrow the opportunities and freedoms of their grand kids and voted Remain. The Leave pensioners can wipe their own arses as far as I’m concerned as they told those who work in social care to take a hike . > Oddly enough, some older people may have different political views to some people who are younger than they are.
That doesn't mean that they are motivated to vote by a desire to cause them problems.
I vote differently to you. That doesn't mean that I'm trying to harm you, or vice versa.
Why . Clearly their grandchildren wanted to stay , and grannie and grand pa didn’t take into account that . Some did obviously , I saw a few pensioners interviewed who said they didn’t want to narrow the opportunities and freedoms of their grand kids and voted Remain. The Leave pensioners can wipe their own arses as far as I’m concerned as they told those who work in social care to take a hike .
Most of them don't care. Most young people didn't vote for anything.
The number that take up the benefit of freedom to work in the EU is what ? 1%? 2%?
The cost of university tuition or the price of housing is considerably more important.
> @ExiledInScotland said: > > @DecrepitJohnL said: > > > @isam said: > > > https://twitter.com/leifskodnick/status/1129404008584667136 > > > > Just as I was kicking myself for not taking the 10/1 Brooks Koepka for the US Open yesterday. BK's best price is now 8/1 so back him and the Donald. > > Do the secret service help deliver the white round packages to the 18 target destinations by hand or something?
Might be an interesting game between him and Kim Jong-un whose father scored 11 holes in one in his only round of golf.
Far too many politicians have peddled the left behind guff .
Just call a spade a spade . They just wanted someone to blame for their crap lives so immigrants were the easy target delivered on a plate by the hatemonger Farage .
In the meantime non EU migration has gone through the roof whilst EU nationals leave in droves .
Amazing how quiet Farage and co have been on this . Brits lose their freedom of movement rights and for what !
Yes, Nigel really should be straight with his supporters - quietly and calmly explain to them that their vote to Leave necessitates an increase in non-EU immigration, and it's now their duty to accommodate these migrants within their own communities. Nigel needs to take the lead on this. That would be the right thing to do.
> @thecommissioner said: > Why . Clearly their grandchildren wanted to stay , and grannie and grand pa didn’t take into account that . Some did obviously , I saw a few pensioners interviewed who said they didn’t want to narrow the opportunities and freedoms of their grand kids and voted Remain. The Leave pensioners can wipe their own arses as far as I’m concerned as they told those who work in social care to take a hike . > > Most young people didn't vote for anything. Most of them don't care. > > The number that take up the benefit of freedom to work in the EU is what ? 1%? 2%?
How many of them want to work for companies like Nissan, Airbus, Honda, Ford, Phillips, Rolls Royce rather than zero hour contract, minimum wage jobs?
> @another_richard said: > > @nico67 said: > > Far too many politicians have peddled the left behind guff . > > > > Just call a spade a spade . They just wanted someone to blame for their crap lives so immigrants were the easy target delivered on a plate by the hatemonger Farage . > > > > In the meantime non EU migration has gone through the roof whilst EU nationals leave in droves . > > > > Amazing how quiet Farage and co have been on this . Brits lose their freedom of movement rights and for what ! > > As usual a PB Remainer has no idea about what he's claiming: > > ' Looking now at how the figures have changed since the EU referendum (which took place on 23 June 2016), between January to March 2016 and January to March 2019: > > UK nationals working in the UK increased by 779,000 to 28.94 million > > non-UK nationals from the EU working in the UK increased by 237,000 to 2.38 million > > non-UK nationals from outside the EU working in the UK increased by 130,000 to 1.32 million ' > > https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/articles/ukandnonukpeopleinthelabourmarket/may2019 >
The net migration figures are the ones to look at . The reality is that non EU nationals are a net burden on the country , EU nationals a positive for the treasury . That’s because non EU migration is made up of a lot of non workers . EU nationals tend to be younger, fitter with less family members in tow . Sorry but those are the facts.
> @Floater said: > Tell us more about this reformed EU..... > > oh, and exactly how we bring it about. >
I voted LEAVE, because I think reform of the EU is very difficult. I could have been persuaded otherwise, but no-one seemed very interested in doing so.
I was, in my own sweet way, trying to be helpful to Remainers by suggesting the kind of policies it might be worth thinking about, if the Referendum is ever re-run.
But it looks as though the Remain plan is to tell the voters that they are xenophobes, that they can wipe their own arses, that they live in uneconomic dunghills, and that they don't care about their own grandchildren.
It's a plan ... but I do wonder whether it will work.
> @Sean_F said: > > @nico67 said: > > > @Sean_F said: > > > > @nico67 said: > > > > Yes the large majority of pensioners that helped deliver Brexit and robbing their grandchildren of freedom of movement will now try to force a no deal to just stick the knife in . > > > > > > > > One wonders , all that guff about grannie and grand dad would do anything for the grandkids. Really! > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think people were motivated to vote by a desire to cause problems for their grandchildren. > > > > > > That's one of the worst arguments that emerged from this debate. > > > > > > > Why . Clearly their grandchildren wanted to stay , and grannie and grand pa didn’t take into account that . Some did obviously , I saw a few pensioners interviewed who said they didn’t want to narrow the opportunities and freedoms of their grand kids and voted Remain. The Leave pensioners can wipe their own arses as far as I’m concerned as they told those who work in social care to take a hike . > > > Oddly enough, some older people may have different political views to some people who are younger than they are. > > That doesn't mean that they are motivated to vote by a desire to cause them problems. > > I vote differently to you. That doesn't mean that I'm trying to harm you, or vice versa.
I agree, the idea that they set out to cause harm is ridiculous.
However, it would be fair to say that some/many older people didn't care much about what young people thought (experience has given them greater wisdom) or young peoples different priorities (stop spending on iphones and avocados), and therefore voted more emotionally than practically, with the worst of the impact to be felt by those younger.
I'm very sceptical about most of the Euro election polls.
So am I (I assume turnout modelling is a nightmare!). My headcanon says that BXP and LIB will have a higher turnout than we assume and LAB and CON less. And that will magnify the results. However those are figures I've pulled from my arsedrawer: I don't actually know. I am vexed...
> @nico67 said: > > @another_richard said: > > > @nico67 said: > > > Far too many politicians have peddled the left behind guff . > > > > > > Just call a spade a spade . They just wanted someone to blame for their crap lives so immigrants were the easy target delivered on a plate by the hatemonger Farage . > > > > > > In the meantime non EU migration has gone through the roof whilst EU nationals leave in droves . > > > > > > Amazing how quiet Farage and co have been on this . Brits lose their freedom of movement rights and for what ! > > > > As usual a PB Remainer has no idea about what he's claiming: > > > > ' Looking now at how the figures have changed since the EU referendum (which took place on 23 June 2016), between January to March 2016 and January to March 2019: > > > > UK nationals working in the UK increased by 779,000 to 28.94 million > > > > non-UK nationals from the EU working in the UK increased by 237,000 to 2.38 million > > > > non-UK nationals from outside the EU working in the UK increased by 130,000 to 1.32 million ' > > > > https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/articles/ukandnonukpeopleinthelabourmarket/may2019 > > > > The net migration figures are the ones to look at . The reality is that non EU nationals are a net burden on the country , EU nationals a positive for the treasury . That’s because non EU migration is made up of a lot of non workers . EU nationals tend to be younger, fitter with less family members in tow . Sorry but those are the facts.
_____________________
This is what you said:
' In the meantime non EU migration has gone through the roof whilst EU nationals leave in droves . '
And the reality is that EU workers have increased much faster than non-EU workers so you were wrong.
Though you are correct in saying that much immigration is a burden on this country. As can be seen by comparing the employment rates of immigrants from differing countries.
> @viewcode said: > I have 9 Grand Kids and votes Leave. If there were a No Deal vs Revoke I would vote No Deal. Remoaners pushing us to extreme options > > Quick question: you don't have to answer this (and I'll understand if you don't), but did you tell them/have you told them of your voting intention?
Why wouldn't you? If the personal reasons for choosing to vote a particular way are valid for you, they are valid explanation to others of your decision. Why on earth would one not be comfortable explaining one's vote and the reasons for it?
> @bigjohnowls said: > I have 9 Grand Kids and voted Leave. > > If there were a No Deal vs Revoke I would vote No Deal > > Remoaners pushing us to extreme options
May's deal would have passed but for extreme Brexiteers voting against it, so that statement is just wrong. You can't blame "Remoaners" for any of this.
> @nico67 said: > The big difference between Scottish Nationalism is it’s being driven by the younger generation . > > I would accept Brexit if the younger generation were the catalyst . As it is it’s not so I will always hate the damn thing . > >
You're the first Remainer on here I've seen acknowledge this inconvenient fact. So do you think votes in general should be weighted by how young a voter is?
Comments
> I suspect you're confusing 'Brexit' with 'the result of the referendum'. The difference is possibly non-trivial.
>
> Merely voting for Brexit was meant to be a disaster. It's actually worked out quite well in terms of jobs, wages, the impact on government funding.
>
> Failing to honour it has put Farage back in the game and it won't be long before Sturgeon is either.
>
> There can be no justification for reneging on the 2016 vote and then telling the Scots they can't do the same over Sindy.
Exactly. It will be Remainers who would break the Union....
So roughly around 80000 voters are hoping to decide the future of the country by installing a no deal PM.
On the most important issue that’s faced the country in decades and will effect the UK for years to come this tiny minority of the country are trying to decide its future .
If we had a second referendum *and* Remain won, I do think there'd be another Scottish vote.
However, the very woefulness of the attempt (such as it was...) to leave the EU might persuade quite a few Scots that leaving the UK (and the EU at the same time) wouldn't necessarily be simple or beneficial.
> > @AndyJS said:
> > It's clear now that the whole art/science of polling has become much more difficult since people moved from landlines to mobile phones. One of the pundits on the Australian election show was making this point.
>
> Australia SHOULD be a lot easier to model. Because of compulsory voting there should not be any weighting issues which result from differential turnout.
but TPP means that 52/48 is a landslide
> I hope the Coalition in Australia manage to build a case before taking office, else they'll need a confirmatory referendum.
Have they checked for Russian interference yet?
> Two thirds of Tory members polled want the UK to leave the EU without a deal.
>
> So roughly around 80000 voters are hoping to decide the future of the country by installing a no deal PM.
>
> On the most important issue that’s faced the country in decades and will effect the UK for years to come this tiny minority of the country are trying to decide its future .
>
>
I have an easy solution to this problem. Sign the WA.
> I hope the Coalition in Australia manage to build a case before taking office, else they'll need a confirmatory referendum.
With 3 year parliaments, they'll get another election sooner than we'll have another referendum.
> > @noneoftheabove said:
> > > @RobD said:
> > > > @noneoftheabove said:
> > > > > @GIN1138 said:
> > > > > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Coalition 51.8% Labor 48.2% on preferences.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 52/48 -this needs a "confirmatory" election now just in case Aussies didn't actually know what they were voting for...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > So you presumably respect the work of the UK parliament democratically elected in 2017 as the country knew exactly what we wanted.....surely anyone criticising May et al should be seen as acting against the will of the people?
> > >
> > > 85% voted for parties that supported Brexit.
> >
> > 82% voted for parties supporting a Brexit deal
> > 1.8% voted for parties supporting no deal
> >
> > So as soon as leavers can agree a deal we can move on.
>
> A shame a party that supports the deal has refused to vote for it three times in a row.
It is a shame. And a disgrace that the ERG viciously trashed the deal within minutes of it being published, so before they had even read it and without any strategic thoughts to how that may play out.
Watch the Tory leadership contest make the same mistakes, promising things they cannot deliver with no thoughts of how that plays out over the months and years to come.
> > @thecommissioner said:
> > I suspect you're confusing 'Brexit' with 'the result of the referendum'. The difference is possibly non-trivial.
> >
> > Merely voting for Brexit was meant to be a disaster. It's actually worked out quite well in terms of jobs, wages, the impact on government funding.
> >
> > Failing to honour it has put Farage back in the game and it won't be long before Sturgeon is either.
> >
> > There can be no justification for reneging on the 2016 vote and then telling the Scots they can't do the same over Sindy.
>
> Exactly. It will be Remainers who would break the Union....
That’s hilarious ! Really ! The biggest threat to the Union is Brexit . Especially when a no deal nutjob takes over as PM.
Leavers polled have clearly shown what they think of the UK, couldn’t care less if NI and Scotland went .
Remainers voted to keep the UK together . Leavers need to start taking responsibility for their vote instead of trying to pin the current car crash onto Remainers .
That will end well for the Union.
> Two thirds of Tory members polled want the UK to leave the EU without a deal.
>
> So roughly around 80000 voters are hoping to decide the future of the country by installing a no deal PM.
>
> On the most important issue that’s faced the country in decades and will effect the UK for years to come this tiny minority of the country are trying to decide its future .
It's odd isn't it. Back in the 70's it was the Tories and Libs who were campaigning hardest FOR joining the EEC. There's a picture of Mrs T somewhere wearing a rather fetching Vote Yes sweater.
Heseltine and I can't be the only people who recall that joint campaign!
> Two thirds of Tory members polled want the UK to leave the EU without a deal.
>
> So roughly around 80000 voters are hoping to decide the future of the country by installing a no deal PM.
>
> On the most important issue that’s faced the country in decades and will effect the UK for years to come this tiny minority of the country are trying to decide its future .
>
>
Short of a successful GE, any new No Dealer faces the same problem of Parliamentary numbers.
To coin a phrase: Nothing Has Changed!
> > @nico67 said:
> > Two thirds of Tory members polled want the UK to leave the EU without a deal.
> >
> > So roughly around 80000 voters are hoping to decide the future of the country by installing a no deal PM.
> >
> > On the most important issue that’s faced the country in decades and will effect the UK for years to come this tiny minority of the country are trying to decide its future .
>
> It's odd isn't it. Back in the 70's it was the Tories and Libs who were campaigning hardest FOR joining the EEC. There's a picture of Mrs T somewhere wearing a rather fetching Vote Yes sweater.
> Heseltine and I can't be the only people who recall that joint campaign!
I'm sure two thirds of Tory members would support joining the EEC. That's not on offer, however.
> It seems to have been totally forgotten that the No Deal the Tory pensioners are slavering over results in a hard border in NI.
>
> That will end well for the Union. <
+++++
Quite.
No Deal is still very very difficult, if not politically impossible. The road to Brexit is still strewn with obstacles, however keen you are to take it.
The good thing about T May resigning is that the new Tory leadership candidates will HAVE to tell everyone their plans for squaring this circle: the near impossibility of Brexit. Because it has to be squared.
Boris won't get away with waffle. I hope we will have TV debates.
> > @RobD said:
> > > @noneoftheabove said:
> > > > @RobD said:
> > > > > @noneoftheabove said:
> > > > > > @GIN1138 said:
> > > > > > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Coalition 51.8% Labor 48.2% on preferences.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 52/48 -this needs a "confirmatory" election now just in case Aussies didn't actually know what they were voting for...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > So you presumably respect the work of the UK parliament democratically elected in 2017 as the country knew exactly what we wanted.....surely anyone criticising May et al should be seen as acting against the will of the people?
> > > >
> > > > 85% voted for parties that supported Brexit.
> > >
> > > 82% voted for parties supporting a Brexit deal
> > > 1.8% voted for parties supporting no deal
> > >
> > > So as soon as leavers can agree a deal we can move on.
> >
> > A shame a party that supports the deal has refused to vote for it three times in a row.
>
> It is a shame. And a disgrace that the ERG viciously trashed the deal within minutes of it being published, so before they had even read it and without any strategic thoughts to how that may play out.
>
> Watch the Tory leadership contest make the same mistakes, promising things they cannot deliver with no thoughts of how that plays out over the months and years to come.
The ERG were condemning the Deal BEFORE it had been published.
There was nothing in it which they objected to - what they couldn't accept was its existence.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/elections/federal/2019/results/party-totals
> > @nico67 said:
> > Two thirds of Tory members polled want the UK to leave the EU without a deal.
> >
> > So roughly around 80000 voters are hoping to decide the future of the country by installing a no deal PM.
> >
> > On the most important issue that’s faced the country in decades and will effect the UK for years to come this tiny minority of the country are trying to decide its future .
> >
> >
>
> Short of a successful GE, any new No Dealer faces the same problem of Parliamentary numbers.
>
> To coin a phrase: Nothing Has Changed!
They can run down the clock on this and any further extension.
> > @nico67 said:
> > Two thirds of Tory members polled want the UK to leave the EU without a deal.
> >
> > So roughly around 80000 voters are hoping to decide the future of the country by installing a no deal PM.
> >
> > On the most important issue that’s faced the country in decades and will effect the UK for years to come this tiny minority of the country are trying to decide its future .
>
> It's odd isn't it. Back in the 70's it was the Tories and Libs who were campaigning hardest FOR joining the EEC. There's a picture of Mrs T somewhere wearing a rather fetching Vote Yes sweater.
> Heseltine and I can't be the only people who recall that joint campaign!
The extra EC and the missing U give a clue as to what has changed.
> > @nico67 said:
> > Two thirds of Tory members polled want the UK to leave the EU without a deal.
> >
> > So roughly around 80000 voters are hoping to decide the future of the country by installing a no deal PM.
> >
> > On the most important issue that’s faced the country in decades and will effect the UK for years to come this tiny minority of the country are trying to decide its future .
>
> It's odd isn't it. Back in the 70's it was the Tories and Libs who were campaigning hardest FOR joining the EEC. There's a picture of Mrs T somewhere wearing a rather fetching Vote Yes sweater.
> Heseltine and I can't be the only people who recall that joint campaign!
Even more amazing it was the Tories who pushed the EU into its eastwards expansion to counter Russia . The Tories and primarily Thatcher were the architects of the single market .
>
> Boris won't get away with waffle. I hope we will have TV debates.
That reminds me of the Ken Clarke v Iain Duncan Smith leadership debate in which IDS denied that he wanted to leave the EU.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jji1Ac_JctQ
> > @nico67 said:
> > Two thirds of Tory members polled want the UK to leave the EU without a deal.
> >
> > So roughly around 80000 voters are hoping to decide the future of the country by installing a no deal PM.
> >
> > On the most important issue that’s faced the country in decades and will effect the UK for years to come this tiny minority of the country are trying to decide its future .
>
> It's odd isn't it. Back in the 70's it was the Tories and Libs who were campaigning hardest FOR joining the EEC. There's a picture of Mrs T somewhere wearing a rather fetching Vote Yes sweater.
> Heseltine and I can't be the only people who recall that joint campaign!
It was only the Grumpy Left like Peter Shore who were against the EEC. Labour was largely pro-EEC too.
> It seems to have been totally forgotten that the No Deal the Tory pensioners are slavering over results in a hard border in NI.
>
> That will end well for the Union.
Do you think they're bothered if the Irish border is a bit harder ?
Putting their pensions and freebies first in line for any cuts in the next recession would be of more concern to them.
FA Cup in an hour
> > @OldKingCole said:
> > > @nico67 said:
> > > Two thirds of Tory members polled want the UK to leave the EU without a deal.
> > >
> > > So roughly around 80000 voters are hoping to decide the future of the country by installing a no deal PM.
> > >
> > > On the most important issue that’s faced the country in decades and will effect the UK for years to come this tiny minority of the country are trying to decide its future .
> >
> > It's odd isn't it. Back in the 70's it was the Tories and Libs who were campaigning hardest FOR joining the EEC. There's a picture of Mrs T somewhere wearing a rather fetching Vote Yes sweater.
> > Heseltine and I can't be the only people who recall that joint campaign!
>
> The extra EC and the missing U give a clue as to what has changed.
Tory policies IIRC.
Exactly. It will be Remainers who would break the Union....
Really?
'Scotland won't be independent within EU, says Farage
As anti-racist protesters chanted outside the venue, Farage told cheering supporters at a rally in Edinburgh: “If you’re genuinely a nationalist lend your vote to the Brexit party, let’s get out of the EU and then have an honest debate about independence.”'
https://tinyurl.com/yxokafme
Of course the 'Nigel talks any old bollox to whoever he thinks is listening' factor has to be taken account of.
> > @OldKingCole said:
> > > @nico67 said:
> > > Two thirds of Tory members polled want the UK to leave the EU without a deal.
> > >
> > > So roughly around 80000 voters are hoping to decide the future of the country by installing a no deal PM.
> > >
> > > On the most important issue that’s faced the country in decades and will effect the UK for years to come this tiny minority of the country are trying to decide its future .
> >
> > It's odd isn't it. Back in the 70's it was the Tories and Libs who were campaigning hardest FOR joining the EEC. There's a picture of Mrs T somewhere wearing a rather fetching Vote Yes sweater.
> > Heseltine and I can't be the only people who recall that joint campaign!
>
> I'm sure two thirds of Tory members would support joining the EEC. That's not on offer, however.
You’re joking .The Tory Membership are now anti everything to do with the EU. They won’t be happy till the UK is an isolated rock, but will be happy to bend over and take it from Trump .
In their eyes being fucked by the USA is preferable to cooperating with Europe .
> > @rottenborough said:
>
>
> Boris won't get away with waffle. I hope we will have TV debates.
>
> I hope you are right, but fear you are not. Boris will wiffle-waffle about going back to Brussels, sword in hand, to get a better deal.<
++++
I don't think that will be enough, not any more. People want concrete answers. That's why Corbyn's *say nothing* strategy is now in tatters. Boris will have to propose solutions.
Even if he doesn't, and he gets away with flim flam, as you say, then the moment he sits down in Number 10 the same bucket of f*ck that confronted Ms May will confront him. He will have to come up with plausible answers, or look very stupid, very quickly.
>
> So as soon as leavers can agree a deal we can move on.
Or ... it is certainly open to Remainers to explain how the benefits of Eu membership would be shared more equally in the future, or how the Eu could be reformed to be more democratic.
What would you be doing for left-behind Stoke or Ebbw Vale or Mansfield, if we were to Remain?
After all, there is a sizeable chunk of the population (perhaps a majority) that would be interested in staying in a Reformed EU.
There is no reason why Remainers need just complain from the sidelines. They could take the initiative.
> > @OldKingCole said:
> > > @nico67 said:
> > > Two thirds of Tory members polled want the UK to leave the EU without a deal.
> > >
> > > So roughly around 80000 voters are hoping to decide the future of the country by installing a no deal PM.
> > >
> > > On the most important issue that’s faced the country in decades and will effect the UK for years to come this tiny minority of the country are trying to decide its future .
> >
> > It's odd isn't it. Back in the 70's it was the Tories and Libs who were campaigning hardest FOR joining the EEC. There's a picture of Mrs T somewhere wearing a rather fetching Vote Yes sweater.
> > Heseltine and I can't be the only people who recall that joint campaign!
>
> It was only the Grumpy Left like Peter Shore who were against the EEC. Labour was largely pro-EEC too.
Tony Benn, too. Leader of the faction to which Jeremy Corbyn belonged.
>
> It was only the Grumpy Left like Peter Shore who were against the EEC. Labour was largely pro-EEC too.
-----
Peter Shore, Michael Foot, Barbara Castle, Tony Benn, Eric Varley... The Labour conference voted almost 2:1 against membership in 1975.
> It seems to have been totally forgotten that the No Deal the Tory pensioners are slavering over results in a hard border in NI.
>
> That will end well for the Union.
One of a number of points that mean "No Deal" is not the end to the Brexit farce, but rather the beginning of a much more divisive set of arguments.
Anecdata: Brexit Party stall at Leicester Clocktower this AM, next to the Hare Krishnas and some Bible bashing Evangelicals. Half a dozen middle aged middle class activists talking mostly to each other, with only a very few interested shoppers. The only party stall that I have seen (there was an Open Europe generic anti Brexit one last week), but looks like low interest and turnout to me.
> > @MarqueeMark said:
> > > @OldKingCole said:
> > > > @nico67 said:
> > > > Two thirds of Tory members polled want the UK to leave the EU without a deal.
> > > >
> > > > So roughly around 80000 voters are hoping to decide the future of the country by installing a no deal PM.
> > > >
> > > > On the most important issue that’s faced the country in decades and will effect the UK for years to come this tiny minority of the country are trying to decide its future .
> > >
> > > It's odd isn't it. Back in the 70's it was the Tories and Libs who were campaigning hardest FOR joining the EEC. There's a picture of Mrs T somewhere wearing a rather fetching Vote Yes sweater.
> > > Heseltine and I can't be the only people who recall that joint campaign!
> >
> > It was only the Grumpy Left like Peter Shore who were against the EEC. Labour was largely pro-EEC too.
>
> Tony Benn, too. Leader of the faction to which Jeremy Corbyn belonged.
Yep, the Grumpy Left!
> Hmm.
>
> If we had a second referendum *and* Remain won, I do think there'd be another Scottish vote.
>
> However, the very woefulness of the attempt (such as it was...) to leave the EU might persuade quite a few Scots that leaving the UK (and the EU at the same time) wouldn't necessarily be simple or beneficial.
Otoh the woefulness of the political class attempting to leave the EU may give many encouragement.
> Is anyone still claiming that Brexit offers any benefits at all? If so what?
We'll be worse off for 30 years but apparently it's still worth it.
> > @MarqueeMark said:
> >
> > It was only the Grumpy Left like Peter Shore who were against the EEC. Labour was largely pro-EEC too.
> -----
>
> Peter Shore, Michael Foot, Barbara Castle, Tony Benn, Eric Varley... The Labour conference voted almost 2:1 against membership in 1975.
>
Indeed, and Wilson had called the referendum to attempt to heal his divided Party. Despite the decisive result it was more than a couple of decades before Labour was intact enough to win another GE.
> > @rottenborough said:
> > > @rottenborough said:
>
> >
> >
> > Boris won't get away with waffle. I hope we will have TV debates.
> >
> > I hope you are right, but fear you are not. Boris will wiffle-waffle about going back to Brussels, sword in hand, to get a better deal.<
>
> ++++
>
> I don't think that will be enough, not any more. People want concrete answers. That's why Corbyn's *say nothing* strategy is now in tatters. Boris will have to propose solutions.
>
> Even if he doesn't, and he gets away with flim flam, as you say, then the moment he sits down in Number 10 the same bucket of f*ck that confronted Ms May will confront him. He will have to come up with plausible answers, or look very stupid,
The whole political system is fucked.. Xenophobia may well be decisive in the uk for some time to come. We deserve the politicians we vote for.
> Even Harold Wilson would have trouble thinking of a clever way out of this one. Boris has no chance. <
+++++
But he will HAVE to come up with something serious and do-able. He will be prime minister, not a Telegraph columnist vaguely opining. So what will his proposal BE?
My guess: he will "call the EU's bluff" and go for No Deal, saying We will never put a border across Ireland, and promising to sign a Treaty to that effect. Or something like that.
One wonders , all that guff about grannie and grand dad would do anything for the grandkids. Really!
> > @Stark_Dawning said:
> > Is anyone still claiming that Brexit offers any benefits at all? If so what?
>
> We'll be worse off for 30 years but apparently it's still worth it.
It’s a spiritual rather than material benefit, apparently. Shame it was secured by pandering to xenophobia.
> > @noneoftheabove said:
> >
> > So as soon as leavers can agree a deal we can move on.
>
> Or ... it is certainly open to Remainers to explain how the benefits of Eu membership would be shared more equally in the future, or how the Eu could be reformed to be more democratic.
>
> What would you be doing for left-behind Stoke or Ebbw Vale or Mansfield, if we were to Remain?
>
> After all, there is a sizeable chunk of the population (perhaps a majority) that would be interested in staying in a Reformed EU.
>
> There is no reason why Remainers need just complain from the sidelines. They could take the initiative.
>
In what way do you think Brexit will benefit help the "left behind" of Stoke, Ebbw Vale and Mansfield?
Do you expect the Potterries and Coal mines to reopen?
> Did you see This Week on Thursday?
I did not.
I find the QT-This Week nexus a bit dispiriting nowadays tbh.
>
> Do you expect the Potterries and Coal mines to reopen?
>
My mistake.
I thought Remain might be interested in winning a second referendum by trying to understand what went wrong the first time round.
Obviously not.
> > @YBarddCwsc said:
> > > @noneoftheabove said:
> > >
> > > So as soon as leavers can agree a deal we can move on.
> >
> > Or ... it is certainly open to Remainers to explain how the benefits of Eu membership would be shared more equally in the future, or how the Eu could be reformed to be more democratic.
> >
> > What would you be doing for left-behind Stoke or Ebbw Vale or Mansfield, if we were to Remain?
> >
> > After all, there is a sizeable chunk of the population (perhaps a majority) that would be interested in staying in a Reformed EU.
> >
> > There is no reason why Remainers need just complain from the sidelines. They could take the initiative.
> >
>
> In what way do you think Brexit will benefit help the "left behind" of Stoke, Ebbw Vale and Mansfield?
>
> Do you expect the Potterries and Coal mines to reopen?
>
It won’t but as long as everyone else is miserable aswell then they’ll feel better !The problems the UK has are down to the UK but enough were duped to just scapegoat the EU.
> > @rottenborough said:
>
> > Even Harold Wilson would have trouble thinking of a clever way out of this one. Boris has no chance. <
>
> +++++
>
> But he will HAVE to come up with something serious and do-able. He will be prime minister, not a Telegraph columnist vaguely opining. So what will his proposal BE?
>
> My guess: he will "call the EU's bluff" and go for No Deal, saying We will never put a border across Ireland, and promising to sign a Treaty to that effect. Or something like that.
>
>
There has to be a border somewhere and if not Ireland, then a border down the Irish Sea will mortally offend the DUP and perhaps lead to a reunited Ireland and more immediately to JCICIPM.
> Yes the large majority of pensioners that helped deliver Brexit and robbing their grandchildren of freedom of movement will now try to force a no deal to just stick the knife in .
>
> One wonders , all that guff about grannie and grand dad would do anything for the grandkids. Really!
>
>
It might be more difficult to get a potato picking job in Bulgaria.
How the young will suffer.
> It seems to have been totally forgotten that the No Deal the Tory pensioners are slavering over results in a hard border in NI.
>
> That will end well for the Union.
I think at least one (of the outsiders) in the Tory contest will push the accept hard border in NI card to get the rest of the ERG wishlist through. In a crowded field differentiation is needed and a non unicorn solution could be rare. Losing NI and Scotland may play well with some of cynical Tories who see the electoral benefits in that.
> Yes the large majority of pensioners that helped deliver Brexit and robbing their grandchildren of freedom of movement will now try to force a no deal to just stick the knife in .
>
> One wonders , all that guff about grannie and grand dad would do anything for the grandkids. Really!
>
>
I don't think people were motivated to vote by a desire to cause problems for their grandchildren.
That's one of the worst arguments that emerged from this debate.
> https://twitter.com/leifskodnick/status/1129404008584667136
Just as I was kicking myself for not taking the 10/1 Brooks Koepka for the US Open yesterday. BK's best price is now 8/1 so back him and the Donald.
"Alan Jones sounded very confident that the Coalition would win. He can put the house on Betfair at 18.00!!!"
https://www.pollbludger.net/2019/05/18/federal-election-2019-live/comment-page-2/#comments
Let's discuss the meaning of the word "accuracy"
The polls prior to the election were Coalition 48.5%, Lab 51.5% yes? If @HYUFD is correct and the result is Coalition 51.8% Lab 48.2%, then that's a mean absolute error of 3.3 percentage points. I think the mean absolute error threshold for UK elections is about 3%: (above that is unacceptable). So it's on the edge of what we would accept and indeed we've had worse: the UK 2014 Scottish Referendum mean absolute error was IIRC much bigger.
However, if we define "accuracy" as "correctly predicts the winner", then yes: the polls were appallingly bad.
It's one of my bugbears: absolute numbers, percentages, thresholds. One needs all three to get to grips with a situation. A realisation of how accurate polls are would have helped consderably in this and many other cases: if the lead is less than, say, 5%, then polls stop being helpful. This understanding is necessary in the event of a possible 2nd UK referendum.
> Inconvenient for Betfair to crash when the FA Cup final is about to begin.
Probably less inconvenient than for it to crash on a regular Saturday with a full set of matches on.
> The Liberal/National Coalition is currently on 4.7 million votes, which is a reminder of how few people live in Australia compared to many other places.
>
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/elections/federal/2019/results/party-totals
That will still be more votes than the Conservative Party here get this week.
Just call a spade a spade . They just wanted someone to blame for their crap lives so immigrants were the easy target delivered on a plate by the hatemonger Farage .
In the meantime non EU migration has gone through the roof whilst EU nationals leave in droves .
Amazing how quiet Farage and co have been on this . Brits lose their freedom of movement rights and for what !
> According to this comment on PollBludger a few hours ago, the odds on the Coalition in Australia must have risen to 18 at one point:
Labor lost an unlosable election.
Another very salutary reminder about the dangers of trusting polls.
> > @isam said:
> > https://twitter.com/leifskodnick/status/1129404008584667136
>
> Just as I was kicking myself for not taking the 10/1 Brooks Koepka for the US Open yesterday. BK's best price is now 8/1 so back him and the Donald.
Do the secret service help deliver the white round packages to the 18 target destinations by hand or something?
> > @Byronic said:
> > > @rottenborough said:
> > > > @rottenborough said:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Boris won't get away with waffle. I hope we will have TV debates.
> > >
> > > I hope you are right, but fear you are not. Boris will wiffle-waffle about going back to Brussels, sword in hand, to get a better deal.<
> >
> > ++++
> >
> > I don't think that will be enough, not any more. People want concrete answers. That's why Corbyn's *say nothing* strategy is now in tatters. Boris will have to propose solutions.
> >
> > Even if he doesn't, and he gets away with flim flam, as you say, then the moment he sits down in Number 10 the same bucket of f*ck that confronted Ms May will confront him. He will have to come up with plausible answers, or look very stupid,
>
>
> The whole political system is fucked.. Xenophobia may well be decisive in the uk for some time to come. We deserve the politicians we vote for.
Except that poll after poll finds that not to be true.
> > @nico67 said:
> > Yes the large majority of pensioners that helped deliver Brexit and robbing their grandchildren of freedom of movement will now try to force a no deal to just stick the knife in .
> >
> > One wonders , all that guff about grannie and grand dad would do anything for the grandkids. Really!
> >
> >
> I don't think people were motivated to vote by a desire to cause problems for their grandchildren.
>
> That's one of the worst arguments that emerged from this debate.
>
Why . Clearly their grandchildren wanted to stay , and grannie and grand pa didn’t take into account that . Some did obviously , I saw a few pensioners interviewed who said they didn’t want to narrow the opportunities and freedoms of their grand kids and voted Remain. The Leave pensioners can wipe their own arses as far as I’m concerned as they told those who work in social care to take a hike .
> > @noneoftheabove said:
> >
> > So as soon as leavers can agree a deal we can move on.
>
> Or ... it is certainly open to Remainers to explain how the benefits of Eu membership would be shared more equally in the future, or how the Eu could be reformed to be more democratic.
>
> What would you be doing for left-behind Stoke or Ebbw Vale or Mansfield, if we were to Remain?
>
> After all, there is a sizeable chunk of the population (perhaps a majority) that would be interested in staying in a Reformed EU.
>
> There is no reason why Remainers need just complain from the sidelines. They could take the initiative.
>
Tell us more about this reformed EU.....
oh, and exactly how we bring it about.
> > @AndyJS said:
> > According to this comment on PollBludger a few hours ago, the odds on the Coalition in Australia must have risen to 18 at one point:
>
> Labor lost an unlosable election.
>
> Another very salutary reminder about the dangers of trusting polls.
>
I'm very sceptical about most of the Euro election polls.
> Far too many politicians have peddled the left behind guff .
>
> Just call a spade a spade . They just wanted someone to blame for their crap lives so immigrants were the easy target delivered on a plate by the hatemonger Farage .
>
> In the meantime non EU migration has gone through the roof whilst EU nationals leave in droves .
>
> Amazing how quiet Farage and co have been on this . Brits lose their freedom of movement rights and for what !
As usual a PB Remainer has no idea about what he's claiming:
' Looking now at how the figures have changed since the EU referendum (which took place on 23 June 2016), between January to March 2016 and January to March 2019:
UK nationals working in the UK increased by 779,000 to 28.94 million
non-UK nationals from the EU working in the UK increased by 237,000 to 2.38 million
non-UK nationals from outside the EU working in the UK increased by 130,000 to 1.32 million '
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/articles/ukandnonukpeopleinthelabourmarket/may2019
> > @Sean_F said:
> > > @nico67 said:
> > > Yes the large majority of pensioners that helped deliver Brexit and robbing their grandchildren of freedom of movement will now try to force a no deal to just stick the knife in .
> > >
> > > One wonders , all that guff about grannie and grand dad would do anything for the grandkids. Really!
> > >
> > >
> > I don't think people were motivated to vote by a desire to cause problems for their grandchildren.
> >
> > That's one of the worst arguments that emerged from this debate.
> >
>
> Why . Clearly their grandchildren wanted to stay , and grannie and grand pa didn’t take into account that . Some did obviously , I saw a few pensioners interviewed who said they didn’t want to narrow the opportunities and freedoms of their grand kids and voted Remain. The Leave pensioners can wipe their own arses as far as I’m concerned as they told those who work in social care to take a hike .
>
Oddly enough, some older people may have different political views to some people who are younger than they are.
That doesn't mean that they are motivated to vote by a desire to cause them problems.
I vote differently to you. That doesn't mean that I'm trying to harm you, or vice versa.
The number that take up the benefit of freedom to work in the EU is what ? 1%? 2%?
The cost of university tuition or the price of housing is considerably more important.
> > @DecrepitJohnL said:
> > > @isam said:
> > > https://twitter.com/leifskodnick/status/1129404008584667136
> >
> > Just as I was kicking myself for not taking the 10/1 Brooks Koepka for the US Open yesterday. BK's best price is now 8/1 so back him and the Donald.
>
> Do the secret service help deliver the white round packages to the 18 target destinations by hand or something?
Might be an interesting game between him and Kim Jong-un whose father scored 11 holes in one in his only round of golf.
> Why . Clearly their grandchildren wanted to stay , and grannie and grand pa didn’t take into account that . Some did obviously , I saw a few pensioners interviewed who said they didn’t want to narrow the opportunities and freedoms of their grand kids and voted Remain. The Leave pensioners can wipe their own arses as far as I’m concerned as they told those who work in social care to take a hike .
>
> Most young people didn't vote for anything. Most of them don't care.
>
> The number that take up the benefit of freedom to work in the EU is what ? 1%? 2%?
How many of them want to work for companies like Nissan, Airbus, Honda, Ford, Phillips, Rolls Royce rather than zero hour contract, minimum wage jobs?
> > @nico67 said:
> > Far too many politicians have peddled the left behind guff .
> >
> > Just call a spade a spade . They just wanted someone to blame for their crap lives so immigrants were the easy target delivered on a plate by the hatemonger Farage .
> >
> > In the meantime non EU migration has gone through the roof whilst EU nationals leave in droves .
> >
> > Amazing how quiet Farage and co have been on this . Brits lose their freedom of movement rights and for what !
>
> As usual a PB Remainer has no idea about what he's claiming:
>
> ' Looking now at how the figures have changed since the EU referendum (which took place on 23 June 2016), between January to March 2016 and January to March 2019:
>
> UK nationals working in the UK increased by 779,000 to 28.94 million
>
> non-UK nationals from the EU working in the UK increased by 237,000 to 2.38 million
>
> non-UK nationals from outside the EU working in the UK increased by 130,000 to 1.32 million '
>
> https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/articles/ukandnonukpeopleinthelabourmarket/may2019
>
The net migration figures are the ones to look at . The reality is that non EU nationals are a net burden on the country , EU nationals a positive for the treasury . That’s because non EU migration is made up of a lot of non workers . EU nationals tend to be younger, fitter with less family members in tow . Sorry but those are the facts.
The ONS published info on this yesterday:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/workplacedisputesandworkingconditions/articles/labourdisputes/2018
The 1910s and 1920s must have made the 1970s look like a harmonious decade.
> Tell us more about this reformed EU.....
>
> oh, and exactly how we bring it about.
>
I voted LEAVE, because I think reform of the EU is very difficult. I could have been persuaded otherwise, but no-one seemed very interested in doing so.
I was, in my own sweet way, trying to be helpful to Remainers by suggesting the kind of policies it might be worth thinking about, if the Referendum is ever re-run.
But it looks as though the Remain plan is to tell the voters that they are xenophobes, that they can wipe their own arses, that they live in uneconomic dunghills, and that they don't care about their own grandchildren.
It's a plan ... but I do wonder whether it will work.
> > @nico67 said:
> > > @Sean_F said:
> > > > @nico67 said:
> > > > Yes the large majority of pensioners that helped deliver Brexit and robbing their grandchildren of freedom of movement will now try to force a no deal to just stick the knife in .
> > > >
> > > > One wonders , all that guff about grannie and grand dad would do anything for the grandkids. Really!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > I don't think people were motivated to vote by a desire to cause problems for their grandchildren.
> > >
> > > That's one of the worst arguments that emerged from this debate.
> > >
> >
> > Why . Clearly their grandchildren wanted to stay , and grannie and grand pa didn’t take into account that . Some did obviously , I saw a few pensioners interviewed who said they didn’t want to narrow the opportunities and freedoms of their grand kids and voted Remain. The Leave pensioners can wipe their own arses as far as I’m concerned as they told those who work in social care to take a hike .
> >
> Oddly enough, some older people may have different political views to some people who are younger than they are.
>
> That doesn't mean that they are motivated to vote by a desire to cause them problems.
>
> I vote differently to you. That doesn't mean that I'm trying to harm you, or vice versa.
I agree, the idea that they set out to cause harm is ridiculous.
However, it would be fair to say that some/many older people didn't care much about what young people thought (experience has given them greater wisdom) or young peoples different priorities (stop spending on iphones and avocados), and therefore voted more emotionally than practically, with the worst of the impact to be felt by those younger.
Give them 3 years to try to deliver what they promised, then hold another election.
(someone whispers in my ear)
Hey, good news: it's already planned!
If there were a No Deal vs Revoke I would vote No Deal
Remoaners pushing us to extreme options
> > @another_richard said:
> > > @nico67 said:
> > > Far too many politicians have peddled the left behind guff .
> > >
> > > Just call a spade a spade . They just wanted someone to blame for their crap lives so immigrants were the easy target delivered on a plate by the hatemonger Farage .
> > >
> > > In the meantime non EU migration has gone through the roof whilst EU nationals leave in droves .
> > >
> > > Amazing how quiet Farage and co have been on this . Brits lose their freedom of movement rights and for what !
> >
> > As usual a PB Remainer has no idea about what he's claiming:
> >
> > ' Looking now at how the figures have changed since the EU referendum (which took place on 23 June 2016), between January to March 2016 and January to March 2019:
> >
> > UK nationals working in the UK increased by 779,000 to 28.94 million
> >
> > non-UK nationals from the EU working in the UK increased by 237,000 to 2.38 million
> >
> > non-UK nationals from outside the EU working in the UK increased by 130,000 to 1.32 million '
> >
> > https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/articles/ukandnonukpeopleinthelabourmarket/may2019
> >
>
> The net migration figures are the ones to look at . The reality is that non EU nationals are a net burden on the country , EU nationals a positive for the treasury . That’s because non EU migration is made up of a lot of non workers . EU nationals tend to be younger, fitter with less family members in tow . Sorry but those are the facts.
_____________________
This is what you said:
' In the meantime non EU migration has gone through the roof whilst EU nationals leave in droves . '
And the reality is that EU workers have increased much faster than non-EU workers so you were wrong.
Though you are correct in saying that much immigration is a burden on this country. As can be seen by comparing the employment rates of immigrants from differing countries.
> I have 9 Grand Kids and votes Leave. If there were a No Deal vs Revoke I would vote No Deal. Remoaners pushing us to extreme options
>
> Quick question: you don't have to answer this (and I'll understand if you don't), but did you tell them/have you told them of your voting intention?
Why wouldn't you? If the personal reasons for choosing to vote a particular way are valid for you, they are valid explanation to others of your decision. Why on earth would one not be comfortable explaining one's vote and the reasons for it?
> I have 9 Grand Kids and voted Leave.
>
> If there were a No Deal vs Revoke I would vote No Deal
>
> Remoaners pushing us to extreme options
May's deal would have passed but for extreme Brexiteers voting against it, so that statement is just wrong. You can't blame "Remoaners" for any of this.
I would accept Brexit if the younger generation were the catalyst . As it is it’s not so I will always hate the damn thing .
> Lynton Crosby and Mark Textor ran the winning Australian campaign.
Crosby managed to net the Tories a popular vote win in England in 2005, which wasn't a bad achievement after the landslides of 1997 and 2001.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_United_Kingdom_general_election_in_England
> The big difference between Scottish Nationalism is it’s being driven by the younger generation .
>
> I would accept Brexit if the younger generation were the catalyst . As it is it’s not so I will always hate the damn thing .
>
>
You're the first Remainer on here I've seen acknowledge this inconvenient fact. So do you think votes in general should be weighted by how young a voter is?