I don't see a way through this. May's Deal certainly isn't it. No Deal is the least popular option of them all. And the rest of the options a just being squabbled over.
May, once again, caused this by forcing her cabinet to abstain and not using the whip to back a compromise.
Rubbish, she gave the party a free vote. More than can be said for Labour MPs when the PM's deal comes to the house. Labour are cowards who want no deal.
May can be criticised for many things, but allowing her junior ministers and MP's to vote as they wish is not one of them.
Exactly, it's absolutely hilarious as a criticism. Previously @Jonathan has been blaming her for not listening and trying to force her view of things on MPs. Now he's criticising her for letting MPs say what they want rather than telling them what to do.
I know it's their raison d'etre, and there is some righteous anger that Scotland very much does not want Brexit, but is 'disrespected' the right word? Their votes were not disrespected, they were defeated, those are not the same thing.
SNP's Westminster leader Ian Blackford said the Commons needed to find consensus and work together.
He said a "vast majority" of Scottish MPs voted to revoke Article 50, to back a second referendum and to stay in the single market and customs union.
He said it was "crystal clear that our votes in this house are disrespected".
He says the day is coming "where we'll determine our future and it will be as an independent country".
Shame Scots were too frit to take their future in their hands last time. No wonder it irks the SNP so much to have lost 2/2 referenda - the Scots are too frit to be independent but the UK isn't. Tough.
Hey Scottish Unionists, your fellow Brits think you're cowards, bottlers and frit. How's about them apples?
I don't see a way through this. May's Deal certainly isn't it. No Deal is the least popular option of them all. And the rest of the options a just being squabbled over.
Amazing to watch our entire political system blowing up. It is incredibly hard to see how it get puts back together again.
It just can't cope with both party politics and Leave/Remain. Too many division lines.
It can’t cope with an utterly incompetent and impotent executive.
Then it has options to get rid of that executive. But it doesn’t seem to want to do that either.
The government is utterly incompetent and impotent, true. Thing is, Parliament is behaving no better.
The poorly drafted ftpa and poorly drafted party leadership rules seriously compromised our ability to deal with the executive. David Cameron, the git that keeps on giving.
BBC site seems to be pushing that the referendum option got the most support. Not sure how relevant that is when another option came closer, and another option other than tonight got more support. If the government option is derided compared to a referendum because it got defeated by more, than that makes the CU close call more relevant than the referendum vote.
He got another chance to grab the limelight... But if it does all end in No Deal the first thing MPs will do if throw him to the wolves and they did Speaker Martin...
I mean I'm all for the indicative votes thing but was it *really* always a 3 stage process as Anna Soubry says? I'd have accepted it was always a 2 stage process but...
BBC site seems to be pushing that the referendum option got the most support. Not sure how relevant that is when another option came closer, and another option other than tonight got more support. If the government option is derided compared to a referendum because it got defeated by more, than that makes the CU close call more relevant than the referendum vote.
Boles: SNP 32, Lab 185, Con 33, Ind 5, Plaid 4, Lib Dem 2 Clarke: Lab 230, Con 37, Ind 5, Lib Dem 1 Kyle-Wilson SNP 31, Lab 203, Con 15, Ind 15, Green 1, Plaid 4
Very surprised the SNP didn't back a Customs Union.
The poorly drafted ftpa and poorly drafted party leadership rules seriously compromised our ability to deal with the executive. David Cameron, the git that keeps on giving.
I think most of the constitutional reform since Major was in power has been very poor.
May, once again, caused this by forcing her cabinet to abstain and not using the whip to back a compromise.
Rubbish, she gave the party a free vote. More than can be said for Labour MPs when the PM's deal comes to the house. Labour are cowards who want no deal.
May can be criticised for many things, but allowing her junior ministers and MP's to vote as they wish is not one of them.
Indeed. It's a completely stupid argument from Labour supporters. Asking the government to whip in favour of positions it opposes whilst similarly offering nothing close to that on the government's position.
Labour MPs are signing the no deal paperwork along with the ERG, they will get the blame. Especially now that Parliament has rejected all other options.
I don't see a way through this. May's Deal certainly isn't it. No Deal is the least popular option of them all. And the rest of the options a just being squabbled over.
May, once again, caused this by forcing her cabinet to abstain and not using the whip to back a compromise.
Rubbish, she gave the party a free vote. More than can be said for Labour MPs when the PM's deal comes to the house. Labour are cowards who want no deal.
May can be criticised for many things, but allowing her junior ministers and MP's to vote as they wish is not one of them.
Exactly, it's absolutely hilarious as a criticism. Previously @Jonathan has been blaming her for not listening and trying to force her view of things on MPs. Now he's criticising her for letting MPs say what they want rather than telling them what to do.
She ain’t listening. It’s just more brinkmanship in pursuit of her lousy deal. She could end this at any time, by whipping either of today’s top options. She doesn’t because she would lose her right wing. It’s carefully constructed.
Boles: SNP 32, Lab 185, Con 33, Ind 5, Plaid 4, Lib Dem 2 Clarke: Lab 230, Con 37, Ind 5, Lib Dem 1 Kyle-Wilson SNP 31, Lab 203, Con 15, Ind 15, Green 1, Plaid 4
Very surprised the SNP didn't back a Customs Union.
SNP want single market or bust.
Who was the SNP abstention (Except Mcneill) on Kyle-Wilson ?!
Boles: SNP 32, Lab 185, Con 33, Ind 5, Plaid 4, Lib Dem 2 Clarke: Lab 230, Con 37, Ind 5, Lib Dem 1 Kyle-Wilson SNP 31, Lab 203, Con 15, Ind 15, Green 1, Plaid 4
Very surprised the SNP didn't back a Customs Union.
SNP want single market or bust.
Bust for them is a calculation that increases the prospect of a Scottish independence referendum, so it's not hard to see why. They're as entrenched as the DUP.
Amazing to watch our entire political system blowing up. It is incredibly hard to see how it get puts back together again.
It just can't cope with both party politics and Leave/Remain. Too many division lines.
It can’t cope with an utterly incompetent and impotent executive.
Then it has options to get rid of that executive. But it doesn’t seem to want to do that either.
The government is utterly incompetent and impotent, true. Thing is, Parliament is behaving no better.
The poorly drafted ftpa and poorly drafted party leadership rules seriously compromised our ability to deal with the executive. David Cameron, the git that keeps on giving.
I mean I'm all for the indicative votes thing but was it *really* always a 3 stage process as Anna Soubry says? I'd have accepted it was always a 2 stage process but...
I don't recall the Wednesday option being talked about much when the Letwin plan was first approved. I think even they have been taken aback that nothing has yet managed a majority.
I mean I'm all for the indicative votes thing but was it *really* always a 3 stage process as Anna Soubry says? I'd have accepted it was always a 2 stage process but...
No. Stage three (Wednesday) was supposed to be legislating to force the government to accept today's winner.
The poorly drafted ftpa and poorly drafted party leadership rules seriously compromised our ability to deal with the executive. David Cameron, the git that keeps on giving.
I think most of the constitutional reform since Major was in power has been very poor.
FTPA. Ahhhhhhh! What a clusterf*ck that has been. I suspect historians will devote considerable page space to it, when the books are written.
BBC site seems to be pushing that the referendum option got the most support. Not sure how relevant that is when another option came closer, and another option other than tonight got more support. If the government option is derided compared to a referendum because it got defeated by more, than that makes the CU close call more relevant than the referendum vote.
Another referendum received the most opposition as well.
Tonia Antoniazzi Kevin Barron Ronnie Campbell Sarah Champion Rosie Cooper Caroline Flint Yvonne Fovargue Stephen Hepburn Mike Hill Kate Hoey Emma Lewell Buck Jonn Mann Siobahin McDonagh Anna McMorrin Grahame Morris Ruth Smeeth Owen Smith Laura Smith Gareth Snell John Spella Jo Stevens Graham Stringer Derek Twigg Paul Williams Daniel Zeichner
No vote
Debbie Abrahams Ann Clwyd Mary Creagh Geraint Davies Janet Daby Stephen Doughty Rosie Duffield Julie Elliott Louise Ellman Jim Fitzpatrick Helen Hayes Meg Hillier Margaret Hodges Darren Jones Graham Jones Kevan Jones Susan Jones Liz Kendall Ged Killen Kerry McCarthy Catherine McKinnell Madeline Moon Toby Perkins Bridget Philipson Ellie Reeves Marie Rimmer Tulip Siddiq Dennis Skinner Wes Streeting Anna Turley Thelma Walker Catherine West
May, once again, caused this by forcing her cabinet to abstain and not using the whip to back a compromise.
Rubbish, she gave the party a free vote. More than can be said for Labour MPs when the PM's deal comes to the house. Labour are cowards who want no deal.
May can be criticised for many things, but allowing her junior ministers and MP's to vote as they wish is not one of them.
Exactly, it's absolutely hilarious as a criticism. Previously @Jonathan has been blaming her for not listening and trying to force her view of things on MPs. Now he's criticising her for letting MPs say what they want rather than telling them what to do.
She ain’t listening. It’s just more brinkmanship in pursuit of her lousy deal. She could end this at any time, by whipping either of today’s top options. She doesn’t because she would lose her right wing. It’s carefully constructed.
BBC site seems to be pushing that the referendum option got the most support. Not sure how relevant that is when another option came closer, and another option other than tonight got more support. If the government option is derided compared to a referendum because it got defeated by more, than that makes the CU close call more relevant than the referendum vote.
On a whipped vote, a 2nd referendum will be comfortably defeated, as 10 DUP, and 30 Opposition will vote with the government.
May, once again, caused this by forcing her cabinet to abstain and not using the whip to back a compromise.
Rubbish, she gave the party a free vote. More than can be said for Labour MPs when the PM's deal comes to the house. Labour are cowards who want no deal.
May can be criticised for many things, but allowing her junior ministers and MP's to vote as they wish is not one of them.
Indeed. It's a completely stupid argument from Labour supporters. Asking the government to whip in favour of positions it opposes whilst similarly offering nothing close to that on the government's position.
Labour MPs are signing the no deal paperwork along with the ERG, they will get the blame. Especially now that Parliament has rejected all other options.
Labour will get next to no blame. They should do, but the Tories will own No Deal.
May, once again, caused this by forcing her cabinet to abstain and not using the whip to back a compromise.
Rubbish, she gave the party a free vote. More than can be said for Labour MPs when the PM's deal comes to the house. Labour are cowards who want no deal.
May can be criticised for many things, but allowing her junior ministers and MP's to vote as they wish is not one of them.
Exactly, it's absolutely hilarious as a criticism. Previously @Jonathan has been blaming her for not listening and trying to force her view of things on MPs. Now he's criticising her for letting MPs say what they want rather than telling them what to do.
She ain’t listening. It’s just more brinkmanship in pursuit of her lousy deal. She could end this at any time, by whipping either of today’s top options. She doesn’t because she would lose her right wing.
But the customs union option requires parliament to pass the WA. It was just offered with no strings attached and Labour cosied up to the ERG and voted it down. The government's position is consistent at least. Labour's position is all over the place.
And thus the Cameron project to modernise the Conservative Party finally dies. I don’t see how the “traditional” one in alliance with hard right English nationalism gets an electoral majority ever again.
By losing Scotland, which is very likely if No Deal, England had a Tory majority of 60 at the last general election. Even England and Wales alone had a Tory majority of 36.
Minus Remain voting Scotland, Wales and every region of England bar London voted Leave, fertile territory for English and hard Brexit nationalists especially until the left produces a better alternative than Corbyn.
Remain voting NI may be lost too soon enough in the event of No Deal as a United Ireland looks more likely but in the meantime the hard right DUP majority will be ideal allies for English nationalism
May, once again, caused this by forcing her cabinet to abstain and not using the whip to back a compromise.
Rubbish, she gave the party a free vote. More than can be said for Labour MPs when the PM's deal comes to the house. Labour are cowards who want no deal.
May can be criticised for many things, but allowing her junior ministers and MP's to vote as they wish is not one of them.
Exactly, it's absolutely hilarious as a criticism. Previously @Jonathan has been blaming her for not listening and trying to force her view of things on MPs. Now he's criticising her for letting MPs say what they want rather than telling them what to do.
She ain’t listening. It’s just more brinkmanship in pursuit of her lousy deal. She could end this at any time, by whipping either of today’s top options. She doesn’t because she would lose her right wing.
Err, you don't seem to have quite taken into account the fact that Corbyn could have ended this at any time (since November) by whipping his MPs to back the deal which is actually on the table, or even giving them a free vote. After all the deal on the table is almost exactly consistent with Labour's stated policy. So I'd be interested in your justification for blaming her and not him for the impasse.
May, once again, caused this by forcing her cabinet to abstain and not using the whip to back a compromise.
Rubbish, she gave the party a free vote. More than can be said for Labour MPs when the PM's deal comes to the house. Labour are cowards who want no deal.
May can be criticised for many things, but allowing her junior ministers and MP's to vote as they wish is not one of them.
Exactly, it's absolutely hilarious as a criticism. Previously @Jonathan has been blaming her for not listening and trying to force her view of things on MPs. Now he's criticising her for letting MPs say what they want rather than telling them what to do.
She ain’t listening. It’s just more brinkmanship in pursuit of her lousy deal. She could end this at any time, by whipping either of today’s top options. She doesn’t because she would lose her right wing. It’s carefully constructed.
Corbyn could have whipped for the WA too.
Sure, they have to find something that they can both whip for. That means the govt has to now change.
Lab ex mining constituencies say "No" to a people's vote:
Rother Valley, Blyth Valley, Rotherham, West Lancashire, Dagenham, Don Valley, Makerfield, North Tyneside, Jarrow, Vauxhall, Barnsley Central, Warrington North, North Durham, South Shields, Bassetlaw, Easington, Barnsley East, Stoke North, Crewe, Stoke Central, Blackley, Halton.
Plenty of Lab ex mining constituencies also voted ‘Yes’ to peoples vote including mine (Newcastle upon Tyne North)
The pro-EU fanatics and the ERG ultras are two cheeks of the same arse. They get their way or the world burns.
Agreed.
Very disappointing from the LibDems and TIGgers. None of the parties offering anything for pragmatists who just want to move on with anything that avoids no deal.
I've a great deal of sympathy for Boles and I don't think you could doubt he's been trying to find compromise of sorts in reasonably good faith. Still, must be tough quitting to become an Independent only to find that the independent group all voted against you and you have to sit on your own.
I am perpetually amazed that Tory leadership can't see that appeasing the headbangers might keep some members onside, but must be shedding voters wholesale
May, once again, caused this by forcing her cabinet to abstain and not using the whip to back a compromise.
Rubbish, she gave the party a free vote. More than can be said for Labour MPs when the PM's deal comes to the house. Labour are cowards who want no deal.
May can be criticised for many things, but allowing her junior ministers and MP's to vote as they wish is not one of them.
Exactly, it's absolutely hilarious as a criticism. Previously @Jonathan has been blaming her for not listening and trying to force her view of things on MPs. Now he's criticising her for letting MPs say what they want rather than telling them what to do.
She ain’t listening. It’s just more brinkmanship in pursuit of her lousy deal. She could end this at any time, by whipping either of today’s top options. She doesn’t because she would lose her right wing.
Err, you don't seem to have quite taken into account the fact that Corbyn could have ended this at any time (since November) by whipping his MPs to back the deal which is actually on the table, or even giving them a free vote. After all the deal on the table is almost exactly consistent with Labour's stated policy. So I'd be interested in your justification for blaming her and not him for the impasse.
May, once again, caused this by forcing her cabinet to abstain and not using the whip to back a compromise.
Rubbish, she gave the party a free vote. More than can be said for Labour MPs when the PM's deal comes to the house. Labour are cowards who want no deal.
May can be criticised for many things, but allowing her junior ministers and MP's to vote as they wish is not one of them.
Exactly, it's absolutely hilarious as a criticism. Previously @Jonathan has been blaming her for not listening and trying to force her view of things on MPs. Now he's criticising her for letting MPs say what they want rather than telling them what to do.
She ain’t listening. It’s just more brinkmanship in pursuit of her lousy deal. She could end this at any time, by whipping either of today’s top options. She doesn’t because she would lose her right wing.
Err, you don't seem to have quite taken into account the fact that Corbyn could have ended this at any time (since November) by whipping his MPs to back the deal which is actually on the table, or even giving them a free vote. After all the deal on the table is almost exactly consistent with Labour's stated policy. So I'd be interested in your justification for blaming her and not him for the impasse.
They both need to find a position they can agree. May takes the blame because she has not moved a millimetre. Corbyn has moved.
May, once again, caused this by forcing her cabinet to abstain and not using the whip to back a compromise.
Rubbish, she gave the party a free vote. More than can be said for Labour MPs when the PM's deal comes to the house. Labour are cowards who want no deal.
May can be criticised for many things, but allowing her junior ministers and MP's to vote as they wish is not one of them.
Indeed. It's a completely stupid argument from Labour supporters. Asking the government to whip in favour of positions it opposes whilst similarly offering nothing close to that on the government's position.
Labour MPs are signing the no deal paperwork along with the ERG, they will get the blame. Especially now that Parliament has rejected all other options.
Labour will get next to no blame. They should do, but the Tories will own No Deal.
We won't, our party has tried to ram it through parliament three times, our PM offered her resignation to get it done. We've done our part. Labour will take the hit, especially given that it's their voters that oppose no deal the most and they have consistently voted against the deal on offer which avoids no deal.
The pro-EU fanatics and the ERG ultras are two cheeks of the same arse. They get their way or the world burns.
Agreed.
Very disappointing from the LibDems and TIGgers. None of the parties offering anything for pragmatists who just want to move on with anything that avoids no deal.
These votes are indicative so it should be for the government to analyse the results and work out how they can craft a majority. The only viable option is to put their deal to a people's vote.
We now have the massive splits in direction showing in all parties (bar DUP and SNP). Impossible to pull a party together never mind parties.
So we'll have increased rowing. More resignations. We'll crash out with no deal. And then a general election where both major parties are lead by useless deadweight idiots most MPs want shut of with a policy platform of Fuck Knows
Everybody blaming the House of Commons, wrongly in my view.
The country is very divided, and many on both sides are deeply entrenched in their opinion. Moreover the tectonic plates of opinion are no longer reflected by the political parties. Given Given the curve ball the electorate threw them, they could have made a better job , but it was never going to be easy. In retrospect something like this was almost inevitable. Gina Miller is possibly the one to blame. Prophets of doom should lighten up
We have these periodic convulsions when the system re-aligns to changes in the country - Fox-North Coalition and Pitt in the 1780's, Liberal split in the 1880's, Labour replacing the Liberals in the 20's. This is just another. They are messy but 10 years later we will be asking "What was all that stuff and nonsense about?"
FWIW I just can't see the logical steps that need to be gone through to meet the FTPA and so bring about a fresh election. Not least because of how it interacts with the timings for a Tory leadership election
May, once again, caused this by forcing her cabinet to abstain and not using the whip to back a compromise.
Rubbish, she gave the party a free vote. More than can be said for Labour MPs when the PM's deal comes to the house. Labour are cowards who want no deal.
May can be criticised for many things, but allowing her junior ministers and MP's to vote as they wish is not one of them.
Exactly, it's absolutely hilarious as a criticism. Previously @Jonathan has been blaming her for not listening and trying to force her view of things on MPs. Now he's criticising her for letting MPs say what they want rather than telling them what to do.
She ain’t listening. It’s just more brinkmanship in pursuit of her lousy deal. She could end this at any time, by whipping either of today’s top options. She doesn’t because she would lose her right wing.
Err, you don't seem to have quite taken into account the fact that Corbyn could have ended this at any time (since November) by whipping his MPs to back the deal which is actually on the table, or even giving them a free vote. After all the deal on the table is almost exactly consistent with Labour's stated policy. So I'd be interested in your justification for blaming her and not him for the impasse.
They both need to find a position they can agree. May takes the blame because she has not moved a millimetre. Corbyn has moved.
Lab ex mining constituencies say "No" to a people's vote:
Rother Valley, Blyth Valley, Rotherham, West Lancashire, Dagenham, Don Valley, Makerfield, North Tyneside, Jarrow, Vauxhall, Barnsley Central, Warrington North, North Durham, South Shields, Bassetlaw, Easington, Barnsley East, Stoke North, Crewe, Stoke Central, Blackley, Halton.
I am perpetually amazed that Tory leadership can't see that appeasing the headbangers might keep some members onside, but must be shedding voters wholesale
Yeah the Tories should just abandon the 52% and just seek to become yet another party seeking the 48% like the other 6 parties doing so.
We now have the massive splits in direction showing in all parties (bar DUP and SNP). Impossible to pull a party together never mind parties.
So we'll have increased rowing. More resignations. We'll crash out with no deal. And then a general election where both major parties are lead by useless deadweight idiots most MPs want shut of with a policy platform of Fuck Knows
Does this mean I need to head back to CostCo for a years supply of bog roll?
You haven't already stocked up? Ooh boy, you will be shit out of luck I am afraid.
Last time, after convincing myself that no-deal was off the table, I managed to distract Mrs U with some offers on booze rather than fill the car with boring stuff like bog-roll.
May, once again, caused this by forcing her cabinet to abstain and not using the whip to back a compromise.
Rubbish, she gave the party a free vote. More than can be said for Labour MPs when the PM's deal comes to the house. Labour are cowards who want no deal.
May can be criticised for many things, but allowing her junior ministers and MP's to vote as they wish is not one of them.
Exactly, it's absolutely hilarious as a criticism. Previously @Jonathan has been blaming her for not listening and trying to force her view of things on MPs. Now he's criticising her for letting MPs say what they want rather than telling them what to do.
She ain’t listening. It’s just more brinkmanship in pursuit of her lousy deal. She could end this at any time, by whipping either of today’s top options. She doesn’t because she would lose her right wing.
Err, you don't seem to have quite taken into account the fact that Corbyn could have ended this at any time (since November) by whipping his MPs to back the deal which is actually on the table, or even giving them a free vote. After all the deal on the table is almost exactly consistent with Labour's stated policy. So I'd be interested in your justification for blaming her and not him for the impasse.
They both need to find a position they can agree. May takes the blame because she has not moved a millimetre. Corbyn has moved.
She just offered the WA with no strings attached. How is that not movement?!
Does this mean I need to head back to CostCo for a years supply of bog roll?
You haven't already stocked up? Ooh boy, you will be shit out of luck I am afraid.
My mother, who is veteran stockpiler from the 1970s, when we last tried to burn our own country to the ground, informs me that the main toilet paper manufacturers have an enormous stockpile ready.
I am left wondering what MPs can organise in a brewery. So much for MPs taking back control. Parliamentary and election procedures will have to be reformed root and branch after this. Not impressed with Boles spoilt brat temper tantrum either. At least Berow’s bias didn’t pay off.
If we are not doing Norway, then it’s a straight choice between no deal and revocation. May might try and bring her deal back but with the backstop still there I doubt it will pass.
May's Deal brought back. 3-line Whip. Those who vote against will not be eligible as candidates in the GE that will follow if May's Shit Deal doesn't pass.
Then a GE, where the Conservative Party candidates are required to unite behind passing May's Deal.
Labour? Who knows what they will go with.... but no ifs, no buts, this will be a Brexit election.
May, once again, caused this by forcing her cabinet to abstain and not using the whip to back a compromise.
Rubbish, she gave the party a free vote. More than can be said for Labour MPs when the PM's deal comes to the house. Labour are cowards who want no deal.
May can be criticised for many things, but allowing her junior ministers and MP's to vote as they wish is not one of them.
Exactly, it's absolutely hilarious as a criticism. Previously @Jonathan has been blaming her for not listening and trying to force her view of things on MPs. Now he's criticising her for letting MPs say what they want rather than telling them what to do.
She ain’t listening. It’s just more brinkmanship in pursuit of her lousy deal. She could end this at any time, by whipping either of today’s top options. She doesn’t because she would lose her right wing. It’s carefully constructed.
No, it's totally unreasonable to expect a government to whip against its own policy. Allowing a free vote is as much as one can reasonably expect.
The pro-EU fanatics and the ERG ultras are two cheeks of the same arse. They get their way or the world burns.
Personally I agree with both of them. MPs should note vote for outcomes that they do not want to happen.
I think that is a bit silly to be honest, meaning no disrespect. It's an argument that no one should ever have a plan B. Yes, most of the time MPs just do as they are told and that's bad, but if the options before them really are just A or B then it is not really principled to cry because you cannot get C. And if you say that option D is a calamity (be it remain or no deal) and by not voting for A or B then D happens, is it really better for them and their constituents?
"Yes, I didn't want no deal/remain, that's a disaster. Oh, did I take action which could have prevented it? No of course not. That would have required compromise".
What that says to me is that neither actually is concerned about no deal or remain respectively. They just signal their virtue about it.
And thus the Cameron project to modernise the Conservative Party finally dies. I don’t see how the “traditional” one in alliance with hard right English nationalism gets an electoral majority ever again.
By losing Scotland, which is very likely if No Deal, England had a Tory majority of 60 at the last general election. Even England and Wales alone had a Tory majority of 36.
Fair point. The break-up of the UK could do the trick in the abstract, but the practical consequences of that happening are less predictable IMO.
May, once again, caused this by forcing her cabinet to abstain and not using the whip to back a compromise.
Rubbish, she gave the party a free vote. More than can be said for Labour MPs when the PM's deal comes to the house. Labour are cowards who want no deal.
May can be criticised for many things, but allowing her junior ministers and MP's to vote as they wish is not one of them.
Exactly, it's absolutely hilarious as a criticism. Previously @Jonathan has been blaming her for not listening and trying to force her view of things on MPs. Now he's criticising her for letting MPs say what they want rather than telling them what to do.
She ain’t listening. It’s just more brinkmanship in pursuit of her lousy deal. She could end this at any time, by whipping either of today’s top options. She doesn’t because she would lose her right wing.
Err, you don't seem to have quite taken into account the fact that Corbyn could have ended this at any time (since November) by whipping his MPs to back the deal which is actually on the table, or even giving them a free vote. After all the deal on the table is almost exactly consistent with Labour's stated policy. So I'd be interested in your justification for blaming her and not him for the impasse.
They both need to find a position they can agree. May takes the blame because she has not moved a millimetre. Corbyn has moved.
She just offered the WA with no strings attached. How is that not movement?!
Jon is not exactly what I would call an impartial observer
May, once again, caused this by forcing her cabinet to abstain and not using the whip to back a compromise.
Rubbish, she gave the party a free vote. More than can be said for Labour MPs when the PM's deal comes to the house. Labour are cowards who want no deal.
May can be criticised for many things, but allowing her junior ministers and MP's to vote as they wish is not one of them.
Indeed. It's a completely stupid argument from Labour supporters. Asking the government to whip in favour of positions it opposes whilst similarly offering nothing close to that on the government's position.
Labour MPs are signing the no deal paperwork along with the ERG, they will get the blame. Especially now that Parliament has rejected all other options.
Labour will get next to no blame. They should do, but the Tories will own No Deal.
We won't, our party has tried to ram it through parliament three times, our PM offered her resignation to get it done. We've done our part. Labour will take the hit, especially given that it's their voters that oppose no deal the most and they have consistently voted against the deal on offer which avoids no deal.
Total horsesh*t. Your party is in power and therefore has a responsibility to govern. It is not governing. It was clear at Christmas that the deal is no good and your party has wasted 3 f*cking months and for what?
The government will go down in history, not the opposition.
Does this mean I need to head back to CostCo for a years supply of bog roll?
You haven't already stocked up? Ooh boy, you will be shit out of luck I am afraid.
Last time, after convincing myself that no-deal was off the table, I managed to distract Mrs U with some offers on booze rather than fill the car with boring stuff like bog-roll.
And thus the Cameron project to modernise the Conservative Party finally dies. I don’t see how the “traditional” one in alliance with hard right English nationalism gets an electoral majority ever again.
Quite a few younger Tory MPs are fiercely anti-EU and pro-free market, often perceiving those two facets as going hand-in-hand, but at the same time are socially progressive from a liberal-to-libertarian perspective. If it was just Olde Style traditionalists and parochial English nationalism then it would be hard for the Tories to move with either the tempora or the mores, and I'm sure you're right they'd struggle to achieve a majority - though "ever" is a bigger word than its four meagre letters suggest.
But I don't see that the remaining Cameroons are the key to Tory prospects in 10 or 20 years' time. The personnel from that political project will have largely left the stage by then and it's the next generation (part of Cameron's legacy but not part of his Project). Political tastes of the electorate wax and wane, and I wouldn't write off a sufficient chunk of some future electorate signing up to "we pay too much in taxes and I'm fed up with the government nannying us" while not being interested in rejoining the EU.
Does this mean I need to head back to CostCo for a years supply of bog roll?
You haven't already stocked up? Ooh boy, you will be shit out of luck I am afraid.
My mother, who is veteran stockpiler from the 1970s, when we last tried to burn our own country to the ground, informs me that the main toilet paper manufacturers have an enormous stockpile ready.
Brie is another matter.
Might double up the Sainsbo's delivery again this week. Don't want to run low on pineapple.
Comments
Like a handicapper seeing ten horses cross the line in a dead heat.
They all need to grow the hell up.
But they did rather test the thesis to destruction...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Conservative_Party_of_Canada
Labour MPs are signing the no deal paperwork along with the ERG, they will get the blame. Especially now that Parliament has rejected all other options.
Anna's bullshitting...
CU received the least opposition.
Tonia Antoniazzi
Kevin Barron
Ronnie Campbell
Sarah Champion
Rosie Cooper
Caroline Flint
Yvonne Fovargue
Stephen Hepburn
Mike Hill
Kate Hoey
Emma Lewell Buck
Jonn Mann
Siobahin McDonagh
Anna McMorrin
Grahame Morris
Ruth Smeeth
Owen Smith
Laura Smith
Gareth Snell
John Spella
Jo Stevens
Graham Stringer
Derek Twigg
Paul Williams
Daniel Zeichner
No vote
Debbie Abrahams
Ann Clwyd
Mary Creagh
Geraint Davies
Janet Daby
Stephen Doughty
Rosie Duffield
Julie Elliott
Louise Ellman
Jim Fitzpatrick
Helen Hayes
Meg Hillier
Margaret Hodges
Darren Jones
Graham Jones
Kevan Jones
Susan Jones
Liz Kendall
Ged Killen
Kerry McCarthy
Catherine McKinnell
Madeline Moon
Toby Perkins
Bridget Philipson
Ellie Reeves
Marie Rimmer
Tulip Siddiq
Dennis Skinner
Wes Streeting
Anna Turley
Thelma Walker
Catherine West
Gove's going to be gutted.
https://twitter.com/theousherwood/status/1112824110193823745?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1112824110193823745&ref_url=http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/04/01/the-chaos-continues-as-mps-reject-all-options-brexit/
Minus Remain voting Scotland, Wales and every region of England bar London voted Leave, fertile territory for English and hard Brexit nationalists especially until the left produces a better alternative than Corbyn.
Remain voting NI may be lost too soon enough in the event of No Deal as a United Ireland looks more likely but in the meantime the hard right DUP majority will be ideal allies for English nationalism
Bunch of donkeys led by donkeys
As for the speaker........
He could have a career as a merchant banker
I've noticed Farage and Ali Campbell seem to get on really well personally...
I am perpetually amazed that Tory leadership can't see that appeasing the headbangers might keep some members onside, but must be shedding voters wholesale
FFS - they are wankers seriously
wtf have they actually achieved - sack the lot of them
If anyone thinks Labour have the answers I have a bridge to sell them
We are so screwed.
So we'll have increased rowing. More resignations. We'll crash out with no deal. And then a general election where both major parties are lead by useless deadweight idiots most MPs want shut of with a policy platform of Fuck Knows
The country is very divided, and many on both sides are deeply entrenched in their opinion. Moreover the tectonic plates of opinion are no longer reflected by the political parties. Given Given the curve ball the electorate threw them, they could have made a better job , but it was never going to be easy. In retrospect something like this was almost inevitable. Gina Miller is possibly the one to blame. Prophets of doom should lighten up
We have these periodic convulsions when the system re-aligns to changes in the country - Fox-North Coalition and Pitt in the 1780's, Liberal split in the 1880's, Labour replacing the Liberals in the 20's. This is just another. They are messy but 10 years later we will be asking "What was all that stuff and nonsense about?"
FWIW I just can't see the logical steps that need to be gone through to meet the FTPA and so bring about a fresh election. Not least because of how it interacts with the timings for a Tory leadership election
I think I might have made a bit of a boo-boo....
Ronnie Campbell
Stephen Hepburn
Kate Hoey
John Mann
Siobhain McDonagh
Anna McMorrin
Owen Smith
Jo Stevens
Paul Williams
Did not vote
David Lammy
Wes Streeting
Daniel Zeichner
Brie is another matter.
Wishart, Monaghan, Hosie
MacNeil also but he really couldn't make it to the chamber.
If we are not doing Norway, then it’s a straight choice between no deal and revocation. May might try and bring her deal back but with the backstop still there I doubt it will pass.
Then a GE, where the Conservative Party candidates are required to unite behind passing May's Deal.
Labour? Who knows what they will go with.... but no ifs, no buts, this will be a Brexit election.
Some April Fool.
"Yes, I didn't want no deal/remain, that's a disaster. Oh, did I take action which could have prevented it? No of course not. That would have required compromise".
What that says to me is that neither actually is concerned about no deal or remain respectively. They just signal their virtue about it.
The government will go down in history, not the opposition.
But I don't see that the remaining Cameroons are the key to Tory prospects in 10 or 20 years' time. The personnel from that political project will have largely left the stage by then and it's the next generation (part of Cameron's legacy but not part of his Project). Political tastes of the electorate wax and wane, and I wouldn't write off a sufficient chunk of some future electorate signing up to "we pay too much in taxes and I'm fed up with the government nannying us" while not being interested in rejoining the EU.