F. Other plan to block no deal More technically prescriptive than amendment C, this says that if the UK is seven calendar days from leaving without a deal, the house should be recalled to consider a motion on whether or not MPs approve such a move.
F. Other plan to block no deal More technically prescriptive than amendment C, this says that if the UK is seven calendar days from leaving without a deal, the house should be recalled to consider a motion on whether or not MPs approve such a move.
Effectively it safeguards their opportunity to force a revocation.
Which is no more than May promised in her statement
F. Other plan to block no deal More technically prescriptive than amendment C, this says that if the UK is seven calendar days from leaving without a deal, the house should be recalled to consider a motion on whether or not MPs approve such a move.
Another irrelevant vote unless May is physically removed from office
Taxes are going to have to rise to pay the extra EU membership fees - may as well let Jezza raise em.
There really is no point in this government - let it fall.
Will there be extra membership fees? I thought Mrs May's super-duper negotiating skills had ensured we'd be paying the full whack for the next two years, even if we were out of the EU, anyway.
I think it's been in an induced coma for a few days but today was the day that its loved ones got to say goodbye, before they turned off life support and donated its organs. Who knows, perhaps its heart will beat on inside some other ill thought out act of national humiliation.
Bebb Benyon Boles Brine Burt Clarke Collins Costa Djanogly Freeman Green Greening Grieve Gyimah Harrington Johnson (J) Lee Lefroy Letwin Masterton Mitchell Morgan Neill Newton Sandbach Soames Spelman Stevenson Vaizey
Lab Against:
Barron Campbell Cooper Flint Hepburn Hoey Mann Stringer
Yvette Cooper against??
Costa and Newton were very avoidable Ministerial resignations - and because of Gvt incompetence they are now rebels on tight votes. Plus Burt Brine and Harrington, that’s 5 new Tories with no Eason to support Ggt on Brexit. Way to go, ERG heroes!
Taxes are going to have to rise to pay the extra EU membership fees - may as well let Jezza raise em.
There really is no point in this government - let it fall.
There isn't much point to the government, but I don't understand the anger at it for being overridden by parliament. That's something that genuinely is not its fault, because if MPs wanted to avoid those extra EU fees they had a very simple option to do so.
Taxes are going to have to rise to pay the extra EU membership fees - may as well let Jezza raise em.
There really is no point in this government - let it fall.
Will there be extra membership fees? I thought Mrs May's super-duper negotiating skills had ensured we'd be paying the full whack for the next two years, even if we were out of the EU, anyway.
When we revoke - we lose all rebates. Thanks Remainers...
Shami Chakrabarti insisted a second referendum had 'never been our preference'.
I remember when Shami Chakrabarti was widely respected. It seems like a long time ago.
Only by people who didn’t know what she was really like. She had trashed what was left of her reputation long before joining Labour. Remember the LSE and Ghadaffi or her failure to stand up for Wilders when he was unlawfully kept out of the country. She had about as much understanding of human rights as my cat.
So TAKING BACK CONTROL is an attempt that could yet still fail, to control order paper for indicative votes that if one did squeak over line is hardly going to be ringing endorsement of way forward to take back to Europe, and in any case will simply be ignored by government if it wasn’t in the manifesto that won them government.
Never has nothing breached trade description act so outrageously than naming this thing taking back control. It’s not worth the order paper it’s written on, might as well just write indicative votes on loo paper and just flush them away.
Where’s HY? You were wrong HY!!! Admit it.
Repeat after me, there’s just the two options, vote for the WA or clean brexit.
Nothing else is in play!
Nope, the EU made clear all they need for further extension is an indication of what the Commons might support and participation in the EU Parliament elections.
May also made clear today given the Commons will not support No Deal the only alternative is further extension and participation in the EU Parliament elections until it passes her Deal.
The last election also produced a hung parliament not a Tory majority
It produced a Tory government! They won.
Stop going by what May says. On No Deal May is looking all ways at once. What a laughable position. What a laughable caricature she has become. What she rules out before lunch she rules back in before tea!
Truth is, when it comes to the crunch, there’s more clean brexiteers in cabinet, government, party than those that would stop them. That’s what the failed coup proved.
You are being proved wrong HY, Parliament cannot take control, and no one From this government will be allowed by their colleagues to fly to Europe and beg for that long extension.
Parliament just has taken control, BINO here we come
That is not control! It’s just an order paper destined for a bin. Control is power. The power is in the hands of people who if you don’t pass the WA will take us out with clean brexit. They won’t go to Europe with an indicative vote in their hands begging for long delay and soft brexit renegotiation. This vote tonight is a hideous moment in terms of getting the WA passed. We are slipping out of EU in a fit of blinkered madness.
Nope, it will be indefinite extension and we will probably never leave, provided there are Commons indicative votes showing what the Commons might agree and we participate in the EU elections the EU and Tusk made clear there can be a lengthy extension
I'm not convinced the EU will let this drag indefinitely.
“Hello.. is that the company that makes WTFometers? It’s the UK Parliament here. We’ve had one for the last 40 years - just in time for Sunny Jim wheeling dying MPs through the lobby. We had to get it recalibarated during the Maastricht Unpleasantness in the 90s, of course. But, well, the thing is, we have a government now which has seen the central plank of its policy die on its arse, twice, by three-figure majorities, then loses three ministers in a double-figure defeat over holding a Bring Your Policies To Work day - and still it’s in office. To cut a long story short, our WTFometer is now a pile of twisted metal and burning plastic, and we were wondering how much it would cost to upgrade?”
Looks like no news as usual. We are going to go on kicking this deal around as we basically have since November. Brtiain wants to be inspired. I'm convinced the economy would be energised with No deal.
So did any PBers predict that the government was going to win today ?
Didn’t Southam?
I did expect it, yep. But it does now seem May is completely lost. She is devoid of any power. It is quite unprecedented. When you’re living through historic times it probably seems less extraordinary than it actually is. But when before has a PM been so emasculated and remained in office?
Brtiain wants to be inspired. I'm convinced the economy would be energised with No deal.
Can you describe how you think No Deal would energise the economy?
A permanent session of the Operation Yellowhammer team deep in the Pindar bunker crisis managing the predicted but undefined cascade crises would absolutely energise the economy. Supermarkets would have record days trading followed by looting as an example...
When you look at the list of Conservative rebels you see that their position is more nuanced than either side is portraying it as. Many of them are MPs who backed the deal twice. They’re looking for a way forward.
Shami Chakrabarti insisted a second referendum had 'never been our preference'.
I remember when Shami Chakrabarti was widely respected. It seems like a long time ago.
Only by people who didn’t know what she was really like. She had trashed what was left of her reputation long before joining Labour. Remember the LSE and Ghadaffi or her failure to stand up for Wilders when he was unlawfully kept out of the country. She had about as much understanding of human rights as my cat.
And for a while David Davis was best buds with her....hmmm...
"They are focusing on having internal arguments about Brexit rather than getting anything done about it, and will get everything they deserve."
let me see how you feel about that when Corbyn unleashes full blown marxism on the UK and we become like Venezuela. It will make no deal look like heaven
There's nothing I can do about that. I live in a safe seat so my vote will make no difference, and I can vote against the Tories with an absolutely clean conscience about what some other government would do. And the idea Corbyn will be able to try full on marxism is clearly absurd, he does not have the control on his MPs to permit that. He'll probably be an awful PM, but the Tories are not interested in governing the country, they want to have their ideological arguments about various Brexit options. If they don't want to govern, and their actions show they don't care about that, we should and will give them what they want.
Brtiain wants to be inspired. I'm convinced the economy would be energised with No deal.
Can you describe how you think No Deal would energise the economy?
A permanent session of the Operation Yellowhammer team deep in the Pindar bunker crisis managing the predicted but undefined cascade crises would absolutely energise the economy. Supermarkets would have record days trading followed by looting as an example...
Letwin was clearly going to pass. May could easily have come to the despatch box and set out a government plan for allowing parliament its say, heading Letwin off at the pass. Yet her Cabinet would rather go down to defeat than be seen to compromise.
When you look at the list of Conservative rebels you see that their position is more nuanced than either side is portraying it as. Many of them are MPs who backed the deal twice. They’re looking for a way forward.
I think she just wants to try and find a consensus, as does say Masterton (And Indeed Letwin and Soames) who also voted for Letwin. Do not confuse all the votes there for 2nd ref/revoke or even Corbyn's customs unicorn.
Morgan has acted rather more responsibly than many in recent months.
Bebb Benyon Boles Brine Burt Clarke Collins Costa Djanogly Freeman Green Greening Grieve Gyimah Harrington Johnson (J) Lee Lefroy Letwin Masterton Mitchell Morgan Neill Newton Sandbach Soames Spelman Stevenson Vaizey
Lab Against:
Barron Campbell Cooper Flint Hepburn Hoey Mann Stringer
Brtiain wants to be inspired. I'm convinced the economy would be energised with No deal.
Can you describe how you think No Deal would energise the economy?
we could reduce our corporation tax rates to the lowest in Europe to make us attractive to foreign investment and subsidise our manufacturing industry to compete with Germany for starters
As the clock winds down and the votes carry on, perhaps my colleagues had it right earlier, and we need to implement a 2 sheets max for a week protocol for office toilet roll usage
When you look at the list of Conservative rebels you see that their position is more nuanced than either side is portraying it as. Many of them are MPs who backed the deal twice. They’re looking for a way forward.
Indeed so. Most notably Richard Harrington, who is a party loyalist through and through. He, and many others, have been trying for weeks to find a way forward, but with one and only one red line: we mustn't crash out in chaos, which is just plain common sense of course.
Does voting for Letwin and against Beckett make...any sense?
Not really.
Either some Tories were reluctant to support a proposal coming from Labour. Or some thought Beckett less worth a rebellion given the PM's commitment on no deal earlier.
Brtiain wants to be inspired. I'm convinced the economy would be energised with No deal.
Can you describe how you think No Deal would energise the economy?
we could reduce our corporation tax rates to the lowest in Europe to make us attractive to foreign investment and subsidise our manufacturing industry to compete with Germany for starters
Subsidising manufacturing?
You sir are a socialist and Margaret Thatcher would kick your arse for such economic heresy.
Letwin amendment passes Newsnight saying could be huge.
The Commons will vote on Brexit first preferences on Wednesday then on Monday if no majority preferential voting to find a winner, then next Wednesday Letwin will introduce a Bill to force the Government to implement the Commons vote
Taxes are going to have to rise to pay the extra EU membership fees - may as well let Jezza raise em.
There really is no point in this government - let it fall.
Will there be extra membership fees? I thought Mrs May's super-duper negotiating skills had ensured we'd be paying the full whack for the next two years, even if we were out of the EU, anyway.
When we revoke - we lose all rebates. Thanks Remainers...
So we have to hold the EU elections, pay more to the EU and start the whole Brexit mullarkey all over again? Hmm. That will not go down well.
Shami Chakrabarti insisted a second referendum had 'never been our preference'.
I remember when Shami Chakrabarti was widely respected. It seems like a long time ago.
Only by people who didn’t know what she was really like. She had trashed what was left of her reputation long before joining Labour. Remember the LSE and Ghadaffi or her failure to stand up for Wilders when he was unlawfully kept out of the country. She had about as much understanding of human rights as my cat.
And for a while David Davis was best buds with her....hmmm...
Still the sexyist in the House of Lords though, with her bedroom eyes and soft come hither voice.
Letwin amendment passes Newsnight saying could be huge.
The Commons will vote on Brexit first preferences on Wednesday then on Monday if no majority preferential voting to find a winner, then next Wednesday Letwin will introduce a Bill to force the Government to implement the Commons vote
What time is May's resignation? I wouldn't want to miss it.
I am lost. What is the main motion? Could this fall, in which case all the amendments are gone?
Sure! They voted for an amendment to the government motion. Doesn't mean they will vote for the amended government motion...
It would be odd if they didn't vote for their amended motion.
The ERG won't vote for it because if acknowledges the outcome of the summit. Hard to believe the government as a whole will vote against its own motion just because of Letwin, but who knows?
Taxes are going to have to rise to pay the extra EU membership fees - may as well let Jezza raise em.
There really is no point in this government - let it fall.
Will there be extra membership fees? I thought Mrs May's super-duper negotiating skills had ensured we'd be paying the full whack for the next two years, even if we were out of the EU, anyway.
When we revoke - we lose all rebates. Thanks Remainers...
Brtiain wants to be inspired. I'm convinced the economy would be energised with No deal.
Can you describe how you think No Deal would energise the economy?
we could reduce our corporation tax rates to the lowest in Europe to make us attractive to foreign investment and subsidise our manufacturing industry to compete with Germany for starters
How would that overcome the practical effects of customs checks and tariffs?
Any subsidies would be subject to counter-measures via the WTO. For example:
The World Trade Organization on Wednesday gave Brazil 90 days to withdraw several industrial stimulus programs, supporting complaints of unfair competition by Japan and the European Union
I am lost. What is the main motion? Could this fall, in which case all the amendments are gone?
Sure! They voted for an amendment to the government motion. Doesn't mean they will vote for the amended government motion...
Yes. I think the figures will be much the same, though.
People who voted for Letwin and not Beckett presumably say that they want constructive alternatives to May's deal, but are not focused on stopping Brexit, even hard Brexit.
Letwin amendment passes Newsnight saying could be huge.
The Commons will vote on Brexit first preferences on Wednesday then on Monday if no majority preferential voting to find a winner, then next Wednesday Letwin will introduce a Bill to force the Government to implement the Commons vote
The Commons can vote to mandate the moon on a stick for all the good it will do them. May remains Prime Minister and if she refuses to yield to the will of the house it only leaves two options.
One, the house tries to remove her government with a no confidence vote,. The ERG would hug her close and she would win. Or, if a squeaked loss, she remains PM until or unless an alternative PM could try for a confidence vote. Which puts us beyond the decision date for Brexit. Two, the Tory party tries to remove her. She likely clings on ignoring the deputation which comes to her outside a of party rules. Or if a squeaked loss makes her resign, she remains PM until a Tory leadership campaign is concluded. Which also puts us beyond the decision date for Brexit.
She can go on and on. Regardless of what her party or the Commons think UNLESS a majority of MPs suddenly coalesce around a unity emergency government OR the Tories do so around a unity emergency leader.
The only leader that can replace May from this cabinet is one that chooses Clean Brexit over long delay. She’s there so long as she does that bidding.
That’s where the power and control lies. In the executive. When a putsch comes to shove that’s where the cabinet, government and party is. That’s where both the people and parliament voted. That’s where the law that needs to be overturned is. The only way to stop Clean Brexit is pass the WA.
Anything else is inability read this political situation.
Are England fans talking up the soccer team to avoid talking about how badly the rugby team are going to demolished at the World Cup?
England were just fifteen bad minutes at Cardiff from winning a Grand Slam (if they'd won that I think they would have gone on to crush Scotland).
They have an odd fragility as we saw in Cardiff (and in the 2nd half against Scotland) but they are also the team that annihilated Ireland IN Dublin etc etc
I'd have England as 2nd or 3rd faves to win the World Cup. Not a bad place.
Currently 5/1-ish, as are ENG for Euros, in from 7/1-ish to 5/1-ish today.
The world rugby ranking has Ireland in 3rd, just behind Wales, well ahead of England.
That's nonsense. I think England are clearly better than Ireland, who have peaked.
The French are the dark horse (as ever). They have astonishing young talent (a bit like England in football). If the coach goes mad and unleashes it, they could win the whole shebang (god forbid).
England seemingly peak at half time then knock off the the rest of the match.
“Hello.. is that the company that makes WTFometers? It’s the UK Parliament here. We’ve had one for the last 40 years - just in time for Sunny Jim wheeling dying MPs through the lobby. We had to get it recalibarated during the Maastricht Unpleasantness in the 90s, of course. But, well, the thing is, we have a government now which has seen the central plank of its policy die on its arse, twice, by three-figure majorities, then loses three ministers in a double-figure defeat over holding a Bring Your Policies To Work day - and still it’s in office. To cut a long story short, our WTFometer is now a pile of twisted metal and burning plastic, and we were wondering how much it would cost to upgrade?”
Brtiain wants to be inspired. I'm convinced the economy would be energised with No deal.
Can you describe how you think No Deal would energise the economy?
we could reduce our corporation tax rates to the lowest in Europe to make us attractive to foreign investment and subsidise our manufacturing industry to compete with Germany for starters
Subsidising manufacturing?
You sir are a socialist and Margaret Thatcher would kick your arse for such economic heresy.
Likely to fall foul of the WTO too, but who needs them...
Letwin amendment passes Newsnight saying could be huge.
The Commons will vote on Brexit first preferences on Wednesday then on Monday if no majority preferential voting to find a winner, then next Wednesday Letwin will introduce a Bill to force the Government to implement the Commons vote
The problem, as I see it, is that the preferred outcome still falls well short of 326 votes, and promptly gets voted down, when the substantive motion is put.
I said this in an earlier thread but how is this a dangerous precedent? A minority government can always be threatened with the threat of a VONC. How is this any different? If there was a functioning coalition or majority government, none of this would be a problem.
Suspending the normal procedures for these matters should not be done lightly, but ultimately the government is completely paralyzed so a fair case can be made that these are very exceptional circumstances. Yes, it may well be MPs still want to chase unicorns all day long, and more likely they will take whatever option is easiest to secure a very long extension that can then be parlayed into remaining, but the government still has not got the DUP or ERG or Lab rebel votes to see its own deal pass. So what does it matter that they are not controlling business, they weren't going to win the day with their option anyway.
I am lost. What is the main motion? Could this fall, in which case all the amendments are gone?
Sure! They voted for an amendment to the government motion. Doesn't mean they will vote for the amended government motion...
Yes. I think the figures will be much the same, though.
People who voted for Letwin and not Beckett presumably say that they want constructive alternatives to May's deal, but are not focused on stopping Brexit, even hard Brexit.
They might have thought it just too prescriptive, or perhaps unworkable?
Taxes are going to have to rise to pay the extra EU membership fees - may as well let Jezza raise em.
There really is no point in this government - let it fall.
Will there be extra membership fees? I thought Mrs May's super-duper negotiating skills had ensured we'd be paying the full whack for the next two years, even if we were out of the EU, anyway.
When we revoke - we lose all rebates. Thanks Remainers...
They are that stupid, yes. Of all the possible options it is the worst, and yet for some reasons MPs seem very keen on it. They are living some fantasy where deep Brexit divisions and lack of wish to clarify positions will be resolved through a GE.
Brtiain wants to be inspired. I'm convinced the economy would be energised with No deal.
Can you describe how you think No Deal would energise the economy?
we could reduce our corporation tax rates to the lowest in Europe to make us attractive to foreign investment and subsidise our manufacturing industry to compete with Germany for starters
Subsidising manufacturing?
You sir are a socialist and Margaret Thatcher would kick your arse for such economic heresy.
Thatcher subsidised manufacturing (and mining).
And governments have continued to do so till the present day - although now most of the manufacturing they are subsidising is in other countries.
Brtiain wants to be inspired. I'm convinced the economy would be energised with No deal.
Can you describe how you think No Deal would energise the economy?
we could reduce our corporation tax rates to the lowest in Europe to make us attractive to foreign investment and subsidise our manufacturing industry to compete with Germany for starters
Subsidising manufacturing?
You sir are a socialist and Margaret Thatcher would kick your arse for such economic heresy.
in a no deal brexit we would need to go to war economically with Europe, that's not socialism , its survival
I am lost. What is the main motion? Could this fall, in which case all the amendments are gone?
Sure! They voted for an amendment to the government motion. Doesn't mean they will vote for the amended government motion...
Yes. I think the figures will be much the same, though.
People who voted for Letwin and not Beckett presumably say that they want constructive alternatives to May's deal, but are not focused on stopping Brexit, even hard Brexit.
My MP (Mann) seems to have voted against Letwin but abstained on Beckett. What's he saying there ?
As the clock winds down and the votes carry on, perhaps my colleagues had it right earlier, and we need to implement a 2 sheets max for a week protocol for office toilet roll usage
Brtiain wants to be inspired. I'm convinced the economy would be energised with No deal.
Can you describe how you think No Deal would energise the economy?
we could reduce our corporation tax rates to the lowest in Europe to make us attractive to foreign investment and subsidise our manufacturing industry to compete with Germany for starters
Subsidising manufacturing?
You sir are a socialist and Margaret Thatcher would kick your arse for such economic heresy.
in a no deal brexit we would need to go to war economically with Europe, that's not socialism , its survival
You want to go to war economically with Europe? Why on earth would you want that?
Comments
Which is no more than May promised in her statement
So this should pass.
Pretty certain now imho.
"You'll just have to wait and see!"
Ayes 311 Noes 314 so closer than Letwin
Nor, I expect, will Conservative Party members.
Who would have thunk it?
There's nothing I can do about that. I live in a safe seat so my vote will make no difference, and I can vote against the Tories with an absolutely clean conscience about what some other government would do. And the idea Corbyn will be able to try full on marxism is clearly absurd, he does not have the control on his MPs to permit that. He'll probably be an awful PM, but the Tories are not interested in governing the country, they want to have their ideological arguments about various Brexit options. If they don't want to govern, and their actions show they don't care about that, we should and will give them what they want.
Either some Tories were reluctant to support a proposal coming from Labour.
Or some thought Beckett less worth a rebellion given the PM's commitment on no deal earlier.
You sir are a socialist and Margaret Thatcher would kick your arse for such economic heresy.
The Commons will vote on Brexit first preferences on Wednesday then on Monday if no majority preferential voting to find a winner, then next Wednesday Letwin will introduce a Bill to force the Government to implement the Commons vote
They hadn't better have done all this just to finish up not being able to agree anything on Wednesday...
Any subsidies would be subject to counter-measures via the WTO. For example:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brazil-wto/wto-orders-brazil-to-remove-subsidies-government-to-appeal-idUSKCN1B92QV
The World Trade Organization on Wednesday gave Brazil 90 days to withdraw several industrial stimulus programs, supporting complaints of unfair competition by Japan and the European Union
People who voted for Letwin and not Beckett presumably say that they want constructive alternatives to May's deal, but are not focused on stopping Brexit, even hard Brexit.
They never said what of.
What could possibly go wrong...
That’s where the power and control lies. In the executive. When a putsch comes to shove that’s where the cabinet, government and party is. That’s where both the people and parliament voted. That’s where the law that needs to be overturned is. The only way to stop Clean Brexit is pass the WA.
Anything else is inability read this political situation.
Yes.
Bebb, Boles, Brine, Clarke, Djanogly, Greening, Grieve, Gyimah, Harrington, Lee, Letwin, Sandbach, Soames, Spelman, Vaizey
Lab rebels other way:
Barron, Campbell, Cooper (R), Flint, Hepburn, Hoey, Snell, Stringer.
And governments have continued to do so till the present day - although now most of the manufacturing they are subsidising is in other countries.
Relying on him is... Interesting.