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  • _Anazina_ said:

    No. I've met the real hunchman at a PB bash.
    A champagne reception at 788 Finchley Road?
    Ha! No, nothing more exotic than Dirty Dick's opposite Liverpool Street!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,169
    Roger said:

    Sandpit said:


    No-one mentions companies like McLaren adding over a thousand jobs in the last two years, nor Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Aston Martin, Lotus, TVR, eight out of ten F1 teams, Formula E teams and a whole lot of other car-related manufacturing companies within an hour’s drive of Swindon - all of whom are hiring right now.

    Hopefully the company and the relevant government departments will find ways to place people around the industry. Greg Clark needs to step up to this and make sure Honda commit to making sure people get found jobs as the factory closes.

    Why build here with our uncertain future when the world's largest market is just a stone's throw away and we're not part of it?
    Because the British manufacturers at the top end of the car market don't care too much about Europe. Their biggest markets are the USA, China, Middle East and the domestic UK market.

    Rolls-Royce and McLaren are not about to start making cars elsewhere, nor to they have the volumes to open a second factory. A significant part of their branding is British expertise in luxury and performance vehicles.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    edited February 2019
    Barnesian said:
    Whas the moving average at now, Tories +2% or so ? I think we can conclude that Labour are certainly behind in votes right now despite the occasional level poll.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,855

    I don’t think she is racist or meant any harm, just surprised at the unusually forgiving acceptance of that kind of slip up.

    I think most people are forgiving because most people think it is a slip up. If she had a history of similar oblique language then it might make sense to construe some racist meaning, but to the best of my knowledge she does not. I'm no fan of Labour or the Gang of 7, but I see no reason to think Angela Smith is racist, it was a gaffe.

    We have plenty of actual racists to deal with before we start going after people for things that can be uncharitably interpreted as offensive.
  • Mr. B, I didn't see any detail as to how, though.

    Mr. kjh, that is true, but it's months until the European leg of the season starts (usually around May, I think). Anyway, we'll see.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,207
    SunnyJim said:

    I don't believe anybody really believes Angela Smith's remarks were anything other than a blundering attempt to follow on from the previous panelists unusual use of language regarding skin colour.

    That said, I get why Corbynista's have flogged it for all it is worth given the day's events.

    Far more importantly, has Soubry gone yet?

    FAR more importantly - has Lord Falconer resigned yet?
  • Barnesian said:
    Survation in the mail today included TIG at 8%. Are pollsters now going to include them in their polls
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,284
    Totally O/t, but an advert for Boots Opticians has just popped up on my Facebook page.

    I asked why and this was the answer

    'You're seeing this ad because Boots UK wants to reach people aged 35 and older who live in the United Kingdom. This is information based on your Facebook profile and where you've connected to the Internet.'

    At least it's honest. Doesn't say how much it cost Boots, though.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,207
    Roger said:

    Someone suggested that after Brexit the most we could hope for was to become a 1950's theme park in the middle of the Atlantic. I think they were being optimistic
    Sandpit said:

    The bigger Brexit issue with Swindon is how those who lose their jobs will find new ones at similar skill and pay levels. Where are the new investments going to come from now that we are leaving the single market?

    No-one mentions companies like McLaren adding over a thousand jobs in the last two years, nor Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Aston Martin, Lotus, TVR, eight out of ten F1 teams, Formula E teams and a whole lot of other car-related manufacturing companies within an hour’s drive of Swindon - all of whom are hiring right now.

    Hopefully the company and the relevant government departments will find ways to place people around the industry. Greg Clark needs to step up to this and make sure Honda commit to making sure people get found jobs as the factory closes.
    Why build here with our uncertain future when the world's largest market is just a stone's throw away and we're not part of it?
    Take it over to Frankfurt. See how many of your specialist staff follow you....
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,514

    Barnesian said:
    Survation in the mail today included TIG at 8%. Are pollsters now going to include them in their polls
    I suspect only as an addendum.

    The BMG poll doesn't include them - in fact it predates the TIG.

    Latest EMA:
    Con 38.8% Lab 36.8%
    Con are 14 short of an overall majority
    Con+DUP 322 seats
    Lab+minor parties 320 seats
  • Any social democratic Labour MP who falls for the McDonnell, "we are listening" nonsense, is a fool and a useful idiot.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,779
    Morning all :)

    I thought the seven MPs did pretty well yesterday and I still think that this morning. As others have said, they have taken the view they haven't left Labour but Labour has left them (so to speak).

    It's interesting to remember where the SDP went policy wise from its inception when you could certainly argue it was a broadly centre-left grouping (as the name suggested) to the last days of the Owen leadership when it had shifted markedly toward the Conservatives ("social market economy" anyone?). Indeed, a number of those who were with the Owenites at the end found comfortable homes in the Conservative Party.

    It may be the TIG comes less to be a party in its own right than an influence on the two main parties dragging them both back to the centre.

    Rather like the Conservative and Labour parties, we can all see what TIG is against but it's much less easy to define what it is for beyond presumably a second vote and a desire to remain in the EU. Chuka is an unreconstructed Blairite but the others less so and all were quite happy to sit in a Labour party led by Ed M so they are of the centre-left. Outside the confines of Labour I suspect a more focused Blairite position might develop but the failure of the centre-left to anticipate and manage the GFC still lingers.

    What sits between Singapore-on-Thames and Caracas-on-Thames?
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307

    Late to this thread so I imagine all the points have already been made but what the heck, let's make them again.

    TIG is not a sustainable position. I don't know whether Mike's right or not with his assertion that "The group they’ve designed has one initial purpose and that was to be a vehicle for them to leave Labour and provide a means for others to follow from the Tories and other parties. This meant that they did not have to have a policy platform."

    On the one hand, being a purely negative reaction against the direction of Labour under Corbyn (and, potentially, the Tories handling of Brexit), has its advantages in that people aren't put off by specific policies. However, they might just as easily (or more easily?) be put off by that same lack of policies: why jump into a vacuum? Either TIG develops policies (in which case, MPs thinking of defecting might once again find themselves out on a limb), or alternatively it doesn't (in which case, what future does it have?).

    My impression is that the ex-Lab MPs still retain sufficient emotional attachment to Labour that they're trying to leave open a door to rejoin. Most are not at the end of their natural political career and would hope to contest the next election. If so, they're badly mistaken. Resigning the whip in this way has burned those bridges and they won't be rebuilt until today's version of Militant is again chased out (which given Hatton's return to Labour this week underscores that the tide is still running against them).

    Therefore, they are going to have to either retire from active politics or fight the next election under a non-Lab flag - which in turn implies either joining an existing party or starting a new one.

    The local elections take place in two and a half months. If the Gang of Seven were to launch a new party today, and appeal to disaffected Labour and other activists to join them, they might have time to make an impact on them but they'll have to move quickly. Similarly, the Newport West by-election offers another opportunity to make an impact in a Labour-held semi-marginal - as might a Peterborough by-election, depending on events there. These are good opportunities scheduled for a time of likely high political drama when the pieces are up in the air and much might be possible.

    By not acting, they are letting chances slip and events shape them.

    Any new party would be most likely to just crash and burn, reinforcing the existing 2 party system.

    On the one hand, they have followed the only viable path open to them. On the other hand, a lot of people inside and outside parliament could get behind the proposition that the current system has failed and needs to change. A lot of people are not enthused by the main parties. They well may be on to something. Only time will tell.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Is it true that the Swindon Honda plant is on the site of a Spitfire factory? Perhaps it's time for the UK to go full on for the nostalgic reconstruction and innovative jam markets.

    https://twitter.com/tradegovuk/status/1040903048892018688

    Most Spitfires were made at Castle Bromwich. Various components for specialist marques like the PRs were made in other parts of the country.
    Hillington at the edge of Glasgow had a good chunk of the Merlin production. I visit it reasonably frequently because the Ducati store has relocated there, buts afaik there's no remnant left, or commemoration even.
    I had a Multistrada 1200 for a while but crashed the fuck out of it near Brest. I've gone back "home" to MV Agusta now.
    Cool, F4 or something less focused?
    My joints are getting a bit creaky for sports bikes, and I've reached that age where one looks yearningly at spoked wheels and open face helmets.
    2011 F4RR Corsacorta in bits for an ECU replacement. 2016 Turismo Veloce for actually riding.
  • Totally O/t, but an advert for Boots Opticians has just popped up on my Facebook page.

    I asked why and this was the answer

    'You're seeing this ad because Boots UK wants to reach people aged 35 and older who live in the United Kingdom. This is information based on your Facebook profile and where you've connected to the Internet.'

    At least it's honest. Doesn't say how much it cost Boots, though.

    I would say there is rather more focus to the advert than they are claiming. The whole point of FB adverts is they can be micro-targeted given the vast database they have.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654

    Adonis on Sky News asked about the TIGS. Immediately blames Honda on Brexit. Calls for A50 to be revoked. I'm not sure if he is a one trick pony or he misheard the question....

    I would like to think the TIGs would definitely have him in the, "don't call us we'll call you" box.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654

    Adonis on Sky News asked about the TIGS. Immediately blames Honda on Brexit. Calls for A50 to be revoked. I'm not sure if he is a one trick pony or he misheard the question....

    I would like to think the TIGs would definitely have him in the, "don't call us we'll call you" box.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,169

    Sandpit said:

    Is it true that the Swindon Honda plant is on the site of a Spitfire factory?

    Yes.

    It's all getting very retro:

    https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/1097579703890821120
    Wonder how long it'll be till they're having nostalgathons for the Airbus A380?
    I'll miss it when its gone - much prefer it to the 350 or 787 in the cheap seats.....bl££dy accountants.....Qatar will be retiring theirs when they get to 10 years old and while Emirates will likely keep them flying a while longer other airlines like SQ may only have them in their fleets for another decade or so. The first one I flew on has already been broken up.
    Emirates have already said that the latest orders will be replacement aircraft for older A380s. The first few dozen they made were horrendously overweight, limited in passenger numbers, cargo and range as a result.
    The first SQ ones were overweight - and late - as well - which is why the owners (SQ leased them) haven't been able to find buyers. They've retired their first four - the first two of which have been dismantled for spares. Malaysian has withdrawn their A380s from commercial service too. Hamburg & Toulouse didn't cover themselves in glory in the A380 start up.
    Yes, The lease companies who sponsored the early SQ A380s would have been better off investing in government bonds, those planes weren't close to the agreed performance specs and it was obvious to anyone they'd been turned back in at the earliest opportunity.

    The big screwup with the A380 is that it has no future as a cargo hauler, as opposed to the B744 and other outdated widebody types, which give those aircraft a second lease of life.
  • SunnyJimSunnyJim Posts: 1,106
    I hope the gang of 7 have a timetable of defections planned for the next month or so to keep up the momentum because they need to be G20 or G40 in pretty short order if they don't want to fizzle out.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,284
    edited February 2019
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)



    What sits between Singapore-on-Thames and Caracas-on-Thames?

    St Helena or South Africa?

    None of them particularly attractive!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654

    Honda aside, today saw the release of another very strong set of jobs numbers, with the economy adding 427,000 full time jobs in the last year, and a significant q-o-q reduction in both unemployment and inactivity.

    Pay growth continues to sit at 3.4%, expanding its lead over inflation slightly to 1.3% - although these things take time to feed into people's wallets in a meaningful way.

    Even as someone who tends towards the optimistic on the economy I find these figures bewildering. If output is only rising modestly what the hell are all these people doing? How many fast food delivery cyclists can our economy sustain?
  • Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:
    Survation in the mail today included TIG at 8%. Are pollsters now going to include them in their polls
    I suspect only as an addendum.

    The BMG poll doesn't include them - in fact it predates the TIG.

    Latest EMA:
    Con 38.8% Lab 36.8%
    Con are 14 short of an overall majority
    Con+DUP 322 seats
    Lab+minor parties 320 seats
    I cannot see it as an addendum as it would need to be specified to draw any conclusions
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006

    Totally O/t, but an advert for Boots Opticians has just popped up on my Facebook page.

    I asked why and this was the answer

    'You're seeing this ad because Boots UK wants to reach people aged 35 and older who live in the United Kingdom. This is information based on your Facebook profile and where you've connected to the Internet.'

    At least it's honest. Doesn't say how much it cost Boots, though.

    I would say there is rather more focus to the advert than they are claiming. The whole point of FB adverts is they can be micro-targeted given the vast database they have.
    Opt out of targeted advertising and unlike any companies you’ve liked. Gets rid of some of it. I still see adverts for obscure pieces of software that I happened to google for weeks previously, despite also opting out of specified advertising for google, and using this fastidiously http://www.youronlinechoices.com/uk/your-ad-choices
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Is it true that the Swindon Honda plant is on the site of a Spitfire factory?

    Yes.

    It's all getting very retro:

    https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/1097579703890821120
    Wonder how long it'll be till they're having nostalgathons for the Airbus A380?
    I'll miss it when its gone - much prefer it to the 350 or 787 in the cheap seats.....bl££dy accountants.....Qatar will be retiring theirs when they get to 10 years old and while Emirates will likely keep them flying a while longer other airlines like SQ may only have them in their fleets for another decade or so. The first one I flew on has already been broken up.
    Emirates have already said that the latest orders will be replacement aircraft for older A380s. The first few dozen they made were horrendously overweight, limited in passenger numbers, cargo and range as a result.
    The first SQ ones were overweight - and late - as well - which is why the owners (SQ leased them) haven't been able to find buyers. They've retired their first four - the first two of which have been dismantled for spares. Malaysian has withdrawn their A380s from commercial service too. Hamburg & Toulouse didn't cover themselves in glory in the A380 start up.
    Yes, The lease companies who sponsored the early SQ A380s would have been better off investing in government bonds, those planes weren't close to the agreed performance specs and it was obvious to anyone they'd been turned back in at the earliest opportunity.

    The big screwup with the A380 is that it has no future as a cargo hauler, as opposed to the B744 and other outdated widebody types, which give those aircraft a second lease of life.
    Flew to/from India (Calicut) with Gulf via Bahrain. London leg was in the Boeing 787-9, and the Calicut leg in a A320-neo. The 787 was OK, no complaints, but nothing special all the same. No 380s at Bahrain yesterday, only an Emirates 777.


  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,284

    Totally O/t, but an advert for Boots Opticians has just popped up on my Facebook page.

    I asked why and this was the answer

    'You're seeing this ad because Boots UK wants to reach people aged 35 and older who live in the United Kingdom. This is information based on your Facebook profile and where you've connected to the Internet.'

    At least it's honest. Doesn't say how much it cost Boots, though.

    I would say there is rather more focus to the advert than they are claiming. The whole point of FB adverts is they can be micro-targeted given the vast database they have.
    Hmm. I'm well over 35 but, so far as I recall, I've never visited any other sites concerned with slight problems. Site problems yes, but that's different!
  • Any sighting of any new tiggers in the wilds of Westminster this morning?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,217

    Mr. B, I didn't see any detail as to how, though.

    What Wolff said - make of it what you will:

    “We are looking at the various scenarios with Mercedes-Benz UK because it not only impacts Formula 1 but it impacts also the mother brand in terms of getting cars and parts in and out of the country,

    “But I can see very much if a ‘no deal’ Brexit would happen like [has] been discussed I think we would have a major impact in terms of our operation going to the races and getting our cars developed and ready. So that is a nightmare scenario that I don’t want to even envisage.

    “Ferrari in Italy, Sauber [now Alfa Romeo] in Switzerland, they would have a massive advantage over every UK-based team,

    “Brexit is a major concern for us and should be a major concern for all of us that live in the UK and operate out of the UK,” said Wolff. “We are Formula 1 teams that travel to races and tests at least 21 times a year. We are moving in and out of the UK, our people move in and out of the UK, the way we are getting parts and services is just-in-time at the last minute into the UK and any major disruption in borders or with taxes would massively damage the Formula One industry in the UK.

    “Our team is an international team. We are German car brand that has its own Formula 1 operations in the United Kingdom we have many different nationalities.

    “And there is uncertainty at the moment of whether the industry is going to be impacted by a no-deal Brexit or a Brexit that is that is damaging to what for me is one of the the the outstanding industries in the United Kingdom. And we’ve said that before. The mother of all messes.”
  • Barnesian said:
    Survation in the mail today included TIG at 8%. Are pollsters now going to include them in their polls
    Apologies if someone else came up with this, but:

    TIGS can only get better?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654
    Another welcome effect of the tightening employment market:

    "There were an estimated 844,000 people (not seasonally adjusted) in employment on zero-hours contracts in their main job, 57,000 fewer than for a year earlier."

    If you have good employees in the current market you have to improve their terms to keep them.

    Also:
    "Latest estimates show that average weekly earnings for employees in Great Britain in real terms (that is, adjusted for price inflation) increased by 1.2% excluding bonuses, and by 1.3% including bonuses, compared with a year earlier."

    There is no question that the uncertainty and incompetence manifested by our political class in respect of Brexit is unwelcome and unhelpful. But it has to be said, despite that, things are going remarkably well.
  • [snip]

    My impression is that the ex-Lab MPs still retain sufficient emotional attachment to Labour that they're trying to leave open a door to rejoin. Most are not at the end of their natural political career and would hope to contest the next election. If so, they're badly mistaken. Resigning the whip in this way has burned those bridges and they won't be rebuilt until today's version of Militant is again chased out (which given Hatton's return to Labour this week underscores that the tide is still running against them).

    Therefore, they are going to have to either retire from active politics or fight the next election under a non-Lab flag - which in turn implies either joining an existing party or starting a new one.

    The local elections take place in two and a half months. If the Gang of Seven were to launch a new party today, and appeal to disaffected Labour and other activists to join them, they might have time to make an impact on them but they'll have to move quickly. Similarly, the Newport West by-election offers another opportunity to make an impact in a Labour-held semi-marginal - as might a Peterborough by-election, depending on events there. These are good opportunities scheduled for a time of likely high political drama when the pieces are up in the air and much might be possible.

    By not acting, they are letting chances slip and events shape them.

    Is it not possible to view the Leave win and the relative success of Corbyn at the last GE as a rejection of the Blairite politics that seem to form the basis of the GO7?
    It's certainly possible but I'd say it was a mistake.

    Brexit was a reaction against many things but one of the central complaints about the EU was its remoteness - it's desire to build castles in the sky and ignore popular opinion. I think that Remain would have comfortably won were the EU still the EEC, even with free movement to and from Eastern and Central Europe.

    As for Corbyn, his good election was as much May's disastrous one. We shouldn't forget his approval ratings beforehand (or now). Some of his policies are superficially attractive: populist ones generally are until they come into contact with the real world.

    In any case, even if TIG only fish in a Remain-Social Democrat pond, there's probably still 20-25% to be going at, which is more than adequate for a new political party.
  • It is always interesting to see the contrast between the lazy and moronic jezza and the much smarter and more dangerous McDonnell. Yesterday jezza stays down the allotment, his office put out a statement basically saying I’m right, they are wrong and he doesn’t bother to address the PLP meeting. Today Johnny mac is giving it the we are listening.
  • Barnesian said:
    Survation in the mail today included TIG at 8%. Are pollsters now going to include them in their polls
    Apologies if someone else came up with this, but:

    TIGS can only get better?
    They are above the Lib Dems in this poll !!!!
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,826
    Nigelb said:

    Mr. B, I didn't see any detail as to how, though.

    What Wolff said - make of it what you will:

    “We are looking at the various scenarios with Mercedes-Benz UK because it not only impacts Formula 1 but it impacts also the mother brand in terms of getting cars and parts in and out of the country,

    “But I can see very much if a ‘no deal’ Brexit would happen like [has] been discussed I think we would have a major impact in terms of our operation going to the races and getting our cars developed and ready. So that is a nightmare scenario that I don’t want to even envisage.

    “Ferrari in Italy, Sauber [now Alfa Romeo] in Switzerland, they would have a massive advantage over every UK-based team,

    “Brexit is a major concern for us and should be a major concern for all of us that live in the UK and operate out of the UK,” said Wolff. “We are Formula 1 teams that travel to races and tests at least 21 times a year. We are moving in and out of the UK, our people move in and out of the UK, the way we are getting parts and services is just-in-time at the last minute into the UK and any major disruption in borders or with taxes would massively damage the Formula One industry in the UK.

    “Our team is an international team. We are German car brand that has its own Formula 1 operations in the United Kingdom we have many different nationalities.

    “And there is uncertainty at the moment of whether the industry is going to be impacted by a no-deal Brexit or a Brexit that is that is damaging to what for me is one of the the the outstanding industries in the United Kingdom. And we’ve said that before. The mother of all messes.”
    Do you ever wonder whether it's possible those voting Brexit didn't think it through?
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Would agree with Mr Slackbladder earlier that Brexit gives businesses an excuse to make cuts even if it doesn't directly cause them. I appreciate the honestly of Honda in distancing these job losses from Brexit, though with the likes of Mr Dunt and Mr Lammy on social media it seems 'listening to experts' only seems to apply when they can make political capital from it.
  • Mr. B, I can see the point on visiting some races (and testing is in the EU), but I'd be interested to know the proportion of supply firms etc that are in and outside the UK.

    I know almost all the teams are clustered in a tiny corner of Oxfordshire, which is great for engineers who can switch teams without, often, needing to move house or change the school their kids go to. A lot of supply firms also exist in and around the area.

    It's also worth noting that of the races this year, I think 8 are in the EU (not counting the UK) and 13 are not. That's enough to have a significant impact but the first 4 races are not in the EU.

    Also, this isn't new news. Why Wolff is only talking about it now, if it is a problem, seems peculiar. As someone else mentioned, the quick turn around and just in time nature of F1 would suggest that either they've been asleep, or a lot of contingency planning should've already occurred.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725

    brendan16 said:

    OK, so I've just come home from a holiday in India to some really exciting Party news. Would be interesting to see how many more Labour MPs jump ship in the next few days.

    Will Wes Streeting join Mike Gapes in the Tiggers and make Ilford a one party Tigger state?

    Perhaps they will have to rename Redbridge - as 'not so Red bridge'?

    PS Hope you had a nice holiday!
    Thanks!

    Ilford South is pretty much as safe Labour as you can get - mum and I were debating with our cab driver coming back from Heathrow how much of a personal vote Gapes has. We came to the conclusion - not much!

    Ilford North until as recently as 2015 had a Tory MP, Lee Scott. But at GE2015 Wes Streeting won it, and at GE2017 his majority sky-rocketed, making the seat pretty safe.
    Gapes will retire next time anyway. He was facing replacement by a Muslim candidate anyway. Of the Tiggers he sticks out as a dinosaur amongst modernisers.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited February 2019
    Chris said:

    nico67 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nicola Sturgeon: "For me, this is one of the saddest parts of Brexit. The UK government is proclaiming the end of free movement as a victory - instead, it is a self-defeating measure. It removes opportunity from millions of people."

    Exactly although some Brits still haven’t worked out that the end of freedom of movement relates to them . Some still think they’re special and can swan around the EU without a care in the world .
    Not to mention Switzerland ...
    Its perhaps worth noting that despite the fact we have been in the EU/EEC for nearly 50 years there are more British citizens living in Australia and New Zealand (where we lost FOM rights 50 years ago) than in the entire EU (excluding Ireland) combined.

    98% of Brits aren't taking advantage of FOM now - because while they enjoy their two week holiday to the Med the vast majority have no real interest in moving permanently to work or live to Slovakia or Bulgaria or Greece - language is a barrier let alone the fact that many EU member states have 30% plus youth unemployment.

    Nicaraguans and Colombians can 'swan around Europe without a care in the world too' for 3 months - as they have visa free travel rights to Schengen as well. And frankly that is all the vast majority of Brits are interested in - a two week holiday.

    I am always tempted to respond - if you are so into FOM why are you still here then? Time to take advantage of all those unfilled job vacancies in Greece or Spain or Italy or Portugal which even local well educated graduates can't get - hence so many of them coming to London and the UK for work? And if you are highly skilled there are better options and better paid options.

    Maybe they just aren't that interested - but see the downsides of uncontrolled population growth and lack of planning (e.g. lack of affordable housing for their kids and grandkids, zero hours contracts, overcrowding, waiting 3 weeks to see a Gp etc etc) in terms of where they and their family and friends live and where they want to stay - the UK!

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited February 2019
    Has it been noted that TIG's site www.theindependent.group is perilously close to www.theindependence.group which redirects to conservativehome.com?

    What larks! And yet another sign of TIG's lack of professionalism after their site collapsed yesterday. Testing other variants of TIG's domain name is left as an exercise for the reader.
  • Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Mr. B, I didn't see any detail as to how, though.

    What Wolff said - make of it what you will:

    “We are looking at the various scenarios with Mercedes-Benz UK because it not only impacts Formula 1 but it impacts also the mother brand in terms of getting cars and parts in and out of the country,

    “But I can see very much if a ‘no deal’ Brexit would happen like [has] been discussed I think we would have a major impact in terms of our operation going to the races and getting our cars developed and ready. So that is a nightmare scenario that I don’t want to even envisage.

    “Ferrari in Italy, Sauber [now Alfa Romeo] in Switzerland, they would have a massive advantage over every UK-based team,

    “Brexit is a major concern for us and should be a major concern for all of us that live in the UK and operate out of the UK,” said Wolff. “We are Formula 1 teams that travel to races and tests at least 21 times a year. We are moving in and out of the UK, our people move in and out of the UK, the way we are getting parts and services is just-in-time at the last minute into the UK and any major disruption in borders or with taxes would massively damage the Formula One industry in the UK.

    “Our team is an international team. We are German car brand that has its own Formula 1 operations in the United Kingdom we have many different nationalities.

    “And there is uncertainty at the moment of whether the industry is going to be impacted by a no-deal Brexit or a Brexit that is that is damaging to what for me is one of the the the outstanding industries in the United Kingdom. And we’ve said that before. The mother of all messes.”
    Do you ever wonder whether it's possible those voting Brexit didn't think it through?
    Lies! All lies!
  • Mr. JohnL, teething problems.

    More interested in seeing whether or not anyone else jumps ship.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,238

    Has it been noted that TIG's site www.theindependent.group is perilously close to www.theindependence.group which redirects to conservativehome.com?

    What larks! And yet another sign of TIG's lack of professionalism after their site collapsed yesterday. Testing other variants of TIG's domain name is left as an exercise for the reader.

    brexitparty.com is still available at $2795.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,179
    edited February 2019
    How the Honda decision is being reported in Asia:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Honda-to-shut-UK-plant-by-2022-in-another-Brexit-retreat

    Honda to shut UK plant by 2022 in another Brexit retreat

    The prospect of Brexit, scheduled for March 29, added yet more uncertainty to a business already mired in red ink. While peer automakers are planning more moderate measures such as temporary stoppages in light of Brexit-linked uncertainty, Honda plans to go a step further by shutting down its only production site in Europe.

    Other international companies, including Japanese electronics makers Panasonic and Sony, plan to relocate certain British operations to the European mainland.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,514

    Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:
    Survation in the mail today included TIG at 8%. Are pollsters now going to include them in their polls
    I suspect only as an addendum.

    The BMG poll doesn't include them - in fact it predates the TIG.

    Latest EMA:
    Con 38.8% Lab 36.8%
    Con are 14 short of an overall majority
    Con+DUP 322 seats
    Lab+minor parties 320 seats
    I cannot see it as an addendum as it would need to be specified to draw any conclusions
    I mean it would be treated the way Survation treated it. A main poll against established parties, and a supplementary poll mentioning TIG.
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006
    DavidL said:

    Another welcome effect of the tightening employment market:

    "There were an estimated 844,000 people (not seasonally adjusted) in employment on zero-hours contracts in their main job, 57,000 fewer than for a year earlier."

    If you have good employees in the current market you have to improve their terms to keep them.

    Also:
    "Latest estimates show that average weekly earnings for employees in Great Britain in real terms (that is, adjusted for price inflation) increased by 1.2% excluding bonuses, and by 1.3% including bonuses, compared with a year earlier."

    There is no question that the uncertainty and incompetence manifested by our political class in respect of Brexit is unwelcome and unhelpful. But it has to be said, despite that, things are going remarkably well.

    We truly have a stunning jobs miracle. The fact that it is largely unremarked on is maybe a sign of the times.

    We are now ironically firmly in the arena of harming economic growth by restricting migration.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,284

    Mr. B, I can see the point on visiting some races (and testing is in the EU), but I'd be interested to know the proportion of supply firms etc that are in and outside the UK.

    I know almost all the teams are clustered in a tiny corner of Oxfordshire, which is great for engineers who can switch teams without, often, needing to move house or change the school their kids go to. A lot of supply firms also exist in and around the area.

    It's also worth noting that of the races this year, I think 8 are in the EU (not counting the UK) and 13 are not. That's enough to have a significant impact but the first 4 races are not in the EU.

    Also, this isn't new news. Why Wolff is only talking about it now, if it is a problem, seems peculiar. As someone else mentioned, the quick turn around and just in time nature of F1 would suggest that either they've been asleep, or a lot of contingency planning should've already occurred.

    AIUI since we don't know what the rules will be in a few days time, what contingency planning there has been as been on a 'what if' basis. And, again AIUI, there's been quite a lot of discussion.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,625
    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Mr. B, I didn't see any detail as to how, though.

    What Wolff said - make of it what you will:

    “We are looking at the various scenarios with Mercedes-Benz UK because it not only impacts Formula 1 but it impacts also the mother brand in terms of getting cars and parts in and out of the country,

    “But I can see very much if a ‘no deal’ Brexit would happen like [has] been discussed I think we would have a major impact in terms of our operation going to the races and getting our cars developed and ready. So that is a nightmare scenario that I don’t want to even envisage.

    “Ferrari in Italy, Sauber [now Alfa Romeo] in Switzerland, they would have a massive advantage over every UK-based team,

    “Brexit is a major concern for us and should be a major concern for all of us that live in the UK and operate out of the UK,” said Wolff. “We are Formula 1 teams that travel to races and tests at least 21 times a year. We are moving in and out of the UK, our people move in and out of the UK, the way we are getting parts and services is just-in-time at the last minute into the UK and any major disruption in borders or with taxes would massively damage the Formula One industry in the UK.

    “Our team is an international team. We are German car brand that has its own Formula 1 operations in the United Kingdom we have many different nationalities.

    “And there is uncertainty at the moment of whether the industry is going to be impacted by a no-deal Brexit or a Brexit that is that is damaging to what for me is one of the the the outstanding industries in the United Kingdom. And we’ve said that before. The mother of all messes.”
    Do you ever wonder whether it's possible those voting Brexit didn't think it through?
    Do you ever wonder how many people will vote differently in a losers vote.

    What then.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654
    notme2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Another welcome effect of the tightening employment market:

    "There were an estimated 844,000 people (not seasonally adjusted) in employment on zero-hours contracts in their main job, 57,000 fewer than for a year earlier."

    If you have good employees in the current market you have to improve their terms to keep them.

    Also:
    "Latest estimates show that average weekly earnings for employees in Great Britain in real terms (that is, adjusted for price inflation) increased by 1.2% excluding bonuses, and by 1.3% including bonuses, compared with a year earlier."

    There is no question that the uncertainty and incompetence manifested by our political class in respect of Brexit is unwelcome and unhelpful. But it has to be said, despite that, things are going remarkably well.

    We truly have a stunning jobs miracle. The fact that it is largely unremarked on is maybe a sign of the times.

    We are now ironically firmly in the arena of harming economic growth by restricting migration.
    I agree. We have a real shortage of labour building up at present. The activity rate amongst our indigenous population is at a record high so there is not a lot of slack available locally.

    The determination of those opposed to Brexit to seize on every piece of bad news and scream disaster means that they are refusing to recognise what is happening right now. It's increasingly eccentric.
  • nico67 said:

    EU nationals working in the UK down 61,000 on a year earlier . Non EU nationals up 130,000.

    So Brits lose their freedom of movement rights to allow more people in from outside the EU from countries that don’t give us freedom of movement .

    Is this what Leavers wanted , more non EU migration !

    Brexit becomes more absurd by the day .

    The difference between the number of immigrants to the UK and the number of immigrants working is rather startling.

    Makes you wonder who is migrating to the UK and for what purposes.
    According to the ONS, 74.7% of non-UK born people of working age are in employment, versus 76.3% of UK born people. 82.6% of EU born people and 86.1% of EU8 born people (aka 'Eastern Europeans') are working. Most categories of non-EU born immigrants also have higher rates of employment than UK born people; the notable exception is people born in Bangladesh and Pakistan, where the rate is 55.9%. One would assume much of the latter reflects low formal employment rates for women. Also, non UK born people are more likely to be students, so a good % of immigrants who are not working are studying. So I think the answer to your question is that at least three quarters of migrants come here to work, many of the others come here to study, and there is a group, from South Asia predominantly, who do not undertake paid work but may well have unpaid caring responsibilities (children, parents, parents in law). I doubt many of them are sitting on their arses watching Jeremy Kyle.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,169

    Mr. B, I can see the point on visiting some races (and testing is in the EU), but I'd be interested to know the proportion of supply firms etc that are in and outside the UK.

    I know almost all the teams are clustered in a tiny corner of Oxfordshire, which is great for engineers who can switch teams without, often, needing to move house or change the school their kids go to. A lot of supply firms also exist in and around the area.

    It's also worth noting that of the races this year, I think 8 are in the EU (not counting the UK) and 13 are not. That's enough to have a significant impact but the first 4 races are not in the EU.

    Also, this isn't new news. Why Wolff is only talking about it now, if it is a problem, seems peculiar. As someone else mentioned, the quick turn around and just in time nature of F1 would suggest that either they've been asleep, or a lot of contingency planning should've already occurred.

    TBH it sounds like Wolff playing the corporate PR game from his bosses in Stuttgart, who are seriously worried about the UK imposing tariffs on German-made cars than anything else. The UK is one of Mercedes's biggest markets.
  • notme2 said:

    We truly have a stunning jobs miracle. The fact that it is largely unremarked on is maybe a sign of the times.

    We are now ironically firmly in the arena of harming economic growth by restricting migration.

    The other aspect to Japanese companies moving production back to Japan is that Japanese immigration policy is liberalizing very fast.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    TOPPING said:

    Adonis on Sky News asked about the TIGS. Immediately blames Honda on Brexit. Calls for A50 to be revoked. I'm not sure if he is a one trick pony or he misheard the question....

    or is a politician.

    ("That's not the question you should have asked me, the question you should have asked me is...")
    Although not the sort of politician that’s keen on obtaining a mandate from the electorate.
  • Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:
    Survation in the mail today included TIG at 8%. Are pollsters now going to include them in their polls
    I suspect only as an addendum.

    The BMG poll doesn't include them - in fact it predates the TIG.

    Latest EMA:
    Con 38.8% Lab 36.8%
    Con are 14 short of an overall majority
    Con+DUP 322 seats
    Lab+minor parties 320 seats
    I cannot see it as an addendum as it would need to be specified to draw any conclusions
    I mean it would be treated the way Survation treated it. A main poll against established parties, and a supplementary poll mentioning TIG.
    Survation did not separate TIG - Cons 39 labour 34 TIG 8 Lib Dem 6 UKIP 5 Othrs 8
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Is it true that the Swindon Honda plant is on the site of a Spitfire factory?

    Yes.

    It's all getting very retro:

    https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/1097579703890821120
    Wonder how long it'll be till they're having nostalgathons for the Airbus A380?
    I'll miss it when its gone - much prefer it to the 350 or 787 in the cheap seats.....bl££dy accountants.....Qatar will be retiring theirs when they get to 10 years old and while Emirates will likely keep them flying a while longer other airlines like SQ may only have them in their fleets for another decade or so. The first one I flew on has already been broken up.
    Emirates have already said that the latest orders will be replacement aircraft for older A380s. The first few dozen they made were horrendously overweight, limited in passenger numbers, cargo and range as a result.
    The first SQ ones were overweight - and late - as well - which is why the owners (SQ leased them) haven't been able to find buyers. They've retired their first four - the first two of which have been dismantled for spares. Malaysian has withdrawn their A380s from commercial service too. Hamburg & Toulouse didn't cover themselves in glory in the A380 start up.
    The big screwup with the A380 is that it has no future as a cargo hauler, as opposed to the B744
    The 747 was originally designed specifically to be able to carry cargo - it is two pallets wide - so when the future of air travel - supersonic - took over, all those seats could be ripped out and the aircraft could carry cargo.

    Its a shame, but the 380 will go the way of my previous favourite (and next quietest) the 340 - two engines trumps 4 when it comes to fuel economy.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654

    notme2 said:

    We truly have a stunning jobs miracle. The fact that it is largely unremarked on is maybe a sign of the times.

    We are now ironically firmly in the arena of harming economic growth by restricting migration.

    The other aspect to Japanese companies moving production back to Japan is that Japanese immigration policy is liberalizing very fast.
    About time. That has been a major drag on their growth for decades.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,705
    nielh said:

    ...

    The local elections take place in two and a half months. If the Gang of Seven were to launch a new party today, and appeal to disaffected Labour and other activists to join them, they might have time to make an impact on them but they'll have to move quickly. Similarly, the Newport West by-election offers another opportunity to make an impact in a Labour-held semi-marginal - as might a Peterborough by-election, depending on events there. These are good opportunities scheduled for a time of likely high political drama when the pieces are up in the air and much might be possible.

    By not acting, they are letting chances slip and events shape them.

    Any new party would be most likely to just crash and burn, reinforcing the existing 2 party system.

    On the one hand, they have followed the only viable path open to them. On the other hand, a lot of people inside and outside parliament could get behind the proposition that the current system has failed and needs to change. A lot of people are not enthused by the main parties. They well may be on to something. Only time will tell.
    I can't see seven MPs magicking up an organisation capable of effectively fighting the local elections in 10 weeks' time.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,169

    Has it been noted that TIG's site www.theindependent.group is perilously close to www.theindependence.group which redirects to conservativehome.com?

    What larks! And yet another sign of TIG's lack of professionalism after their site collapsed yesterday. Testing other variants of TIG's domain name is left as an exercise for the reader.

    In the same way they couldn't work out how to use Cloudfare effectively yesterday, it seems they couldn't be botherted to also register a few dozen similar domains before their announcement.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,207

    Has it been noted that TIG's site www.theindependent.group is perilously close to www.theindependence.group which redirects to conservativehome.com?

    What larks! And yet another sign of TIG's lack of professionalism after their site collapsed yesterday. Testing other variants of TIG's domain name is left as an exercise for the reader.

    Their inability to proof read also gave the impression of a rather hurried slap-dash approach.

    They need to sharpen up their act ahead of forming a party. Get some media training. Or at least, ensure that those who are not very adept at appearing on the media are kept far, far away.....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,207
    IanB2 said:

    brendan16 said:

    OK, so I've just come home from a holiday in India to some really exciting Party news. Would be interesting to see how many more Labour MPs jump ship in the next few days.

    Will Wes Streeting join Mike Gapes in the Tiggers and make Ilford a one party Tigger state?

    Perhaps they will have to rename Redbridge - as 'not so Red bridge'?

    PS Hope you had a nice holiday!
    Thanks!

    Ilford South is pretty much as safe Labour as you can get - mum and I were debating with our cab driver coming back from Heathrow how much of a personal vote Gapes has. We came to the conclusion - not much!

    Ilford North until as recently as 2015 had a Tory MP, Lee Scott. But at GE2015 Wes Streeting won it, and at GE2017 his majority sky-rocketed, making the seat pretty safe.
    Gapes will retire next time anyway. He was facing replacement by a Muslim candidate anyway. Of the Tiggers he sticks out as a dinosaur amongst modernisers.
    A dinosaur that ripped into Corbyn's Labour and left it's moral authority eviscerated, though.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited February 2019
    IanB2 said:

    brendan16 said:

    OK, so I've just come home from a holiday in India to some really exciting Party news. Would be interesting to see how many more Labour MPs jump ship in the next few days.

    Will Wes Streeting join Mike Gapes in the Tiggers and make Ilford a one party Tigger state?

    Perhaps they will have to rename Redbridge - as 'not so Red bridge'?

    PS Hope you had a nice holiday!
    Thanks!

    Ilford South is pretty much as safe Labour as you can get - mum and I were debating with our cab driver coming back from Heathrow how much of a personal vote Gapes has. We came to the conclusion - not much!

    Ilford North until as recently as 2015 had a Tory MP, Lee Scott. But at GE2015 Wes Streeting won it, and at GE2017 his majority sky-rocketed, making the seat pretty safe.
    Gapes will retire next time anyway. He was facing replacement by a Muslim candidate anyway. Of the Tiggers he sticks out as a dinosaur amongst modernisers.
    As you say Ilford has changed massively demographically in the last 10-15 years like much of outer east London. Neither Gapes or Streeting are exactly representative of the area and the local community anymore.

    They would stand no chance as independents against what would be a BAME/female Labour candidate. They are also seats with high population turnovers relatively - so its harder for any person to build up a loyal personal vote.

    Indeed I doubt any of the 7 would hold their seats - where are the backers, the infrastructure and the voting base?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725
    Sandpit said:

    Has it been noted that TIG's site www.theindependent.group is perilously close to www.theindependence.group which redirects to conservativehome.com?

    What larks! And yet another sign of TIG's lack of professionalism after their site collapsed yesterday. Testing other variants of TIG's domain name is left as an exercise for the reader.

    In the same way they couldn't work out how to use Cloudfare effectively yesterday, it seems they couldn't be botherted to also register a few dozen similar domains before their announcement.
    As it's not a long term name it probably won't matter
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,514

    Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:
    Survation in the mail today included TIG at 8%. Are pollsters now going to include them in their polls
    I suspect only as an addendum.

    The BMG poll doesn't include them - in fact it predates the TIG.

    Latest EMA:
    Con 38.8% Lab 36.8%
    Con are 14 short of an overall majority
    Con+DUP 322 seats
    Lab+minor parties 320 seats
    I cannot see it as an addendum as it would need to be specified to draw any conclusions
    I mean it would be treated the way Survation treated it. A main poll against established parties, and a supplementary poll mentioning TIG.
    Survation did not separate TIG - Cons 39 labour 34 TIG 8 Lib Dem 6 UKIP 5 Othrs 8
    It did. Cons 40% Lab 35.5% LD 10% UKIP 5%

    Tables are here: https://www.survation.com/survation-on-behalf-of-daily-mail-final-tables/
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,826
    Sandpit said:

    Roger said:

    Sandpit said:


    No-one mentions companies like McLaren adding over a thousand jobs in the last two years, nor Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Aston Martin, Lotus, TVR, eight out of ten F1 teams, Formula E teams and a whole lot of other car-related manufacturing companies within an hour’s drive of Swindon - all of whom are hiring right now.

    Hopefully the company and the relevant government departments will find ways to place people around the industry. Greg Clark needs to step up to this and make sure Honda commit to making sure people get found jobs as the factory closes.

    Why build here with our uncertain future when the world's largest market is just a stone's throw away and we're not part of it?
    Because the British manufacturers at the top end of the car market don't care too much about Europe. Their biggest markets are the USA, China, Middle East and the domestic UK market.

    Rolls-Royce and McLaren are not about to start making cars elsewhere, nor to they have the volumes to open a second factory. A significant part of their branding is British expertise in luxury and performance vehicles.
    I have been to the Audi BMW and Mercedes factories in Germany having shot commercials for all three. They were all in their different ways like the Guggenheim in Bilbao. i've never seen factories like them. i don't know what the British ones are like but I suspect if they were anything like the German ones they'd have sell-out guided tours.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725
    Chris said:

    nielh said:

    ...

    The local elections take place in two and a half months. If the Gang of Seven were to launch a new party today, and appeal to disaffected Labour and other activists to join them, they might have time to make an impact on them but they'll have to move quickly. Similarly, the Newport West by-election offers another opportunity to make an impact in a Labour-held semi-marginal - as might a Peterborough by-election, depending on events there. These are good opportunities scheduled for a time of likely high political drama when the pieces are up in the air and much might be possible.

    By not acting, they are letting chances slip and events shape them.

    Any new party would be most likely to just crash and burn, reinforcing the existing 2 party system.

    On the one hand, they have followed the only viable path open to them. On the other hand, a lot of people inside and outside parliament could get behind the proposition that the current system has failed and needs to change. A lot of people are not enthused by the main parties. They well may be on to something. Only time will tell.
    I can't see seven MPs magicking up an organisation capable of effectively fighting the local elections in 10 weeks' time.
    All they need to do is test the water in a handful of wards. Or not bother. It's way too early to start thinking like a national party
  • How the Honda decision is being reported in Asia:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Honda-to-shut-UK-plant-by-2022-in-another-Brexit-retreat

    Honda to shut UK plant by 2022 in another Brexit retreat

    The prospect of Brexit, scheduled for March 29, added yet more uncertainty to a business already mired in red ink. While peer automakers are planning more moderate measures such as temporary stoppages in light of Brexit-linked uncertainty, Honda plans to go a step further by shutting down its only production site in Europe.

    Other international companies, including Japanese electronics makers Panasonic and Sony, plan to relocate certain British operations to the European mainland.

    “This decision was not informed by Brexit,” said Honda Chief Executive Takahiro Hachigo.

    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-honda-idUKKCN1Q80KF
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Spreadsheet Phil needs a new column in his excel file - what is he doing to make the Uk more attractive for manufacturing ? He's only been CotE for 3 years..
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,169

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Is it true that the Swindon Honda plant is on the site of a Spitfire factory?

    Yes.

    It's all getting very retro:

    https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/1097579703890821120
    Wonder how long it'll be till they're having nostalgathons for the Airbus A380?
    I'll miss it when its gone - much prefer it to the 350 or 787 in the cheap seats.....bl££dy accountants.....Qatar will be retiring theirs when they get to 10 years old and while Emirates will likely keep them flying a while longer other airlines like SQ may only have them in their fleets for another decade or so. The first one I flew on has already been broken up.
    Emirates have already said that the latest orders will be replacement aircraft for older A380s. The first few dozen they made were horrendously overweight, limited in passenger numbers, cargo and range as a result.
    The first SQ ones were overweight - and late - as well - which is why the owners (SQ leased them) haven't been able to find buyers. They've retired their first four - the first two of which have been dismantled for spares. Malaysian has withdrawn their A380s from commercial service too. Hamburg & Toulouse didn't cover themselves in glory in the A380 start up.
    The big screwup with the A380 is that it has no future as a cargo hauler, as opposed to the B744
    The 747 was originally designed specifically to be able to carry cargo - it is two pallets wide - so when the future of air travel - supersonic - took over, all those seats could be ripped out and the aircraft could carry cargo.

    Its a shame, but the 380 will go the way of my previous favourite (and next quietest) the 340 - two engines trumps 4 when it comes to fuel economy.
    Very much so, the whole reason behind the hump on the 747 was that it was also designed as a front-lifting cargo hauler. Many old 747s are now running cargo around the world.

    4-engined aircraft are now becoming redundant as a result of increased reliability and more relaxed ETOPS regulations around widebodied twins.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Roger said:

    I have been to the Audi BMW and Mercedes factories in Germany having shot commercials for all three. They were all in their different ways like the Guggenheim in Bilbao. i've never seen factories like them. i don't know what the British ones are like but I suspect if they were anything like the German ones they'd have sell-out guided tours.

    The Land Rover factory in Solihull did offer sell out tours of the Defender production line before it closed.

    It didn't look like the Guggenheim, although many parts could have been in a museum
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,169
    Roger said:

    Sandpit said:

    Roger said:

    Sandpit said:


    No-one mentions companies like McLaren adding over a thousand jobs in the last two years, nor Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Aston Martin, Lotus, TVR, eight out of ten F1 teams, Formula E teams and a whole lot of other car-related manufacturing companies within an hour’s drive of Swindon - all of whom are hiring right now.

    Hopefully the company and the relevant government departments will find ways to place people around the industry. Greg Clark needs to step up to this and make sure Honda commit to making sure people get found jobs as the factory closes.

    Why build here with our uncertain future when the world's largest market is just a stone's throw away and we're not part of it?
    Because the British manufacturers at the top end of the car market don't care too much about Europe. Their biggest markets are the USA, China, Middle East and the domestic UK market.

    Rolls-Royce and McLaren are not about to start making cars elsewhere, nor to they have the volumes to open a second factory. A significant part of their branding is British expertise in luxury and performance vehicles.
    I have been to the Audi BMW and Mercedes factories in Germany having shot commercials for all three. They were all in their different ways like the Guggenheim in Bilbao. i've never seen factories like them. i don't know what the British ones are like but I suspect if they were anything like the German ones they'd have sell-out guided tours.
    Here you go:
    https://www.pocket-lint.com/cars/news/mclaren/120297-mclaren-technology-centre
  • Scott_P said:
    Just imagine how bad it would be if we didn’t hold all the cards.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,676
    DavidL said:

    notme2 said:

    We truly have a stunning jobs miracle. The fact that it is largely unremarked on is maybe a sign of the times.

    We are now ironically firmly in the arena of harming economic growth by restricting migration.

    The other aspect to Japanese companies moving production back to Japan is that Japanese immigration policy is liberalizing very fast.
    About time. That has been a major drag on their growth for decades.
    Very funny to hear this from a Leaver.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,284
    Scott_P said:
    That'll be putting the whatsits up Welsh sheep farmers. Lambs are already in the fields!
  • TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    notme2 said:

    We truly have a stunning jobs miracle. The fact that it is largely unremarked on is maybe a sign of the times.

    We are now ironically firmly in the arena of harming economic growth by restricting migration.

    The other aspect to Japanese companies moving production back to Japan is that Japanese immigration policy is liberalizing very fast.
    About time. That has been a major drag on their growth for decades.
    Very funny to hear this from a Leaver.
    Do you think Japan will liberalise to FOM with their Asian neighbours?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,169
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/02/19/brexit-latest-newstory-minister-four-conservative-backbench/
    "Five Conservatives, including one minister, poised to leave for new independent group"
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    ydoethur said:

    *Pulls smug face*

    Can I just remind people of this comment I made on the 26th July last year:

    “Whether Labour are just being incredibly careless and complacent or whether Corbyn really is a closet Nazi, it is quite clear that this goes way, way beyond Livingstone making stupid remarks on Zionism or a shadow equalities minister calling for ethnic cleansing. This is now a systemic issue that implicates the entire Labour movement.

    And unfortunately for Labour it has come (1) at the moment people are fed up with Brexit and (2) at the start of the silly season when the papers are looking for stuff to fill column inches.

    I’ve been told before that there are not many Jews in this country. That is of course true. But if people get it in their heads that Labour are racist (and potentially criminals in light of other events) it’s going to hurt them badly.


    I do hope all the scoffers are satisfied with the way their predictions turned out...

    Yes. You said it well. I remember being criticised by some on here too for pointing out the vileness which Corbyn’s election as leader had unleashed within Labour. None so blind......
  • Roger said:

    Sandpit said:

    Roger said:

    Sandpit said:


    No-one mentions companies like McLaren adding over a thousand jobs in the last two years, nor Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Aston Martin, Lotus, TVR, eight out of ten F1 teams, Formula E teams and a whole lot of other car-related manufacturing companies within an hour’s drive of Swindon - all of whom are hiring right now.

    Hopefully the company and the relevant government departments will find ways to place people around the industry. Greg Clark needs to step up to this and make sure Honda commit to making sure people get found jobs as the factory closes.

    Why build here with our uncertain future when the world's largest market is just a stone's throw away and we're not part of it?
    Because the British manufacturers at the top end of the car market don't care too much about Europe. Their biggest markets are the USA, China, Middle East and the domestic UK market.

    Rolls-Royce and McLaren are not about to start making cars elsewhere, nor to they have the volumes to open a second factory. A significant part of their branding is British expertise in luxury and performance vehicles.
    I have been to the Audi BMW and Mercedes factories in Germany having shot commercials for all three. They were all in their different ways like the Guggenheim in Bilbao. i've never seen factories like them. i don't know what the British ones are like but I suspect if they were anything like the German ones they'd have sell-out guided tours.
    VW and Audi have truly massive car show-rooms in Kerala, southern India.

  • Do you think Japan will liberalise to FOM with their Asian neighbours?

    Ever? Yes.
    Soon? No.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited February 2019



    More interested in seeing whether or not anyone else jumps ship.

    As I suggested earlier, TIG would seem to be another reason for Theresa May to call an early election -- while Labour is in disarray and before any Conservatives jump ship (or walk the plank). I've had a token bet on a spring election.
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807

    How the Honda decision is being reported in Asia:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Honda-to-shut-UK-plant-by-2022-in-another-Brexit-retreat

    Honda to shut UK plant by 2022 in another Brexit retreat

    The prospect of Brexit, scheduled for March 29, added yet more uncertainty to a business already mired in red ink. While peer automakers are planning more moderate measures such as temporary stoppages in light of Brexit-linked uncertainty, Honda plans to go a step further by shutting down its only production site in Europe.

    Other international companies, including Japanese electronics makers Panasonic and Sony, plan to relocate certain British operations to the European mainland.

    I was European FD for one of the big Japanese electronics companies in the 80s and 90s. Whilst they are now more diverse in their senior management ranks, I would have thought that some of the old ways of thinking persist. And that doesn’t bode well for the U.K. The Japanese corporations compete fiercely in their day-to-day operations but act together far more strategically. The Japanese Government always played a key role in setting the long term strategic ambitions for exports and overseas presence. If Japan plc has decided to withdraw from U.K. manufacturing then, whilst each corporation will set its own timetable, the end game will be the same.

    One final point, the Japanese preferred the U.K. for manufacturing and as a base for sales and marketing for many reasons: homogeneity of workforce, language, driving on the right side of the road, willingness of the U.K. government to seeing U.K-owned manufacturing sites bought up by Japanese corps, compliant Unions even willing to enter no-strike deals etc etc. BUT, the contrary factor that frightened them even in the 90s was the thought that the U.K. would become detached from the EU...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725
    brendan16 said:

    IanB2 said:

    brendan16 said:

    OK, so I've just come home from a holiday in India to some really exciting Party news. Would be interesting to see how many more Labour MPs jump ship in the next few days.

    Will Wes Streeting join Mike Gapes in the Tiggers and make Ilford a one party Tigger state?

    Perhaps they will have to rename Redbridge - as 'not so Red bridge'?

    PS Hope you had a nice holiday!
    Thanks!

    Ilford South is pretty much as safe Labour as you can get - mum and I were debating with our cab driver coming back from Heathrow how much of a personal vote Gapes has. We came to the conclusion - not much!

    Ilford North until as recently as 2015 had a Tory MP, Lee Scott. But at GE2015 Wes Streeting won it, and at GE2017 his majority sky-rocketed, making the seat pretty safe.
    Gapes will retire next time anyway. He was facing replacement by a Muslim candidate anyway. Of the Tiggers he sticks out as a dinosaur amongst modernisers.
    As you say Ilford has changed massively demographically in the last 10-15 years like much of outer east London. Neither Gapes or Streeting are exactly representative of the area and the local community anymore.

    They would stand no chance as independents against what would be a BAME/female Labour candidate. They are also seats with high population turnovers relatively - so its harder for any person to build up a loyal personal vote.

    Indeed I doubt any of the 7 would hold their seats - where are the backers, the infrastructure and the voting base?
    They need to set out to break the political system. Chuka was striking the right tone on R4 this morning. Leave the LDs and Greens alone in their handfuls of strong areas, probably give Scotland less priority from the off, and hope for a clear run elsewhere.

    People have been bemoaning the abject state of the ossified two-party system for years. So now is the time.
  • brendan16 said:

    IanB2 said:

    brendan16 said:

    OK, so I've just come home from a holiday in India to some really exciting Party news. Would be interesting to see how many more Labour MPs jump ship in the next few days.

    Will Wes Streeting join Mike Gapes in the Tiggers and make Ilford a one party Tigger state?

    Perhaps they will have to rename Redbridge - as 'not so Red bridge'?

    PS Hope you had a nice holiday!
    Thanks!

    Ilford South is pretty much as safe Labour as you can get - mum and I were debating with our cab driver coming back from Heathrow how much of a personal vote Gapes has. We came to the conclusion - not much!

    Ilford North until as recently as 2015 had a Tory MP, Lee Scott. But at GE2015 Wes Streeting won it, and at GE2017 his majority sky-rocketed, making the seat pretty safe.
    Gapes will retire next time anyway. He was facing replacement by a Muslim candidate anyway. Of the Tiggers he sticks out as a dinosaur amongst modernisers.
    As you say Ilford has changed massively demographically in the last 10-15 years like much of outer east London. Neither Gapes or Streeting are exactly representative of the area and the local community anymore.

    They would stand no chance as independents against what would be a BAME/female Labour candidate. They are also seats with high population turnovers relatively - so its harder for any person to build up a loyal personal vote.

    Indeed I doubt any of the 7 would hold their seats - where are the backers, the infrastructure and the voting base?
    Poor Angela Smith has a majority of only 1,300 or so.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Roger said:

    Sandpit said:

    Roger said:

    Sandpit said:


    No-one mentions companies like McLaren adding over a thousand jobs in the last two years, nor Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Aston Martin, Lotus, TVR, eight out of ten F1 teams, Formula E teams and a whole lot of other car-related manufacturing companies within an hour’s drive of Swindon - all of whom are hiring right now.

    Hopefully the company and the relevant government departments will find ways to place people around the industry. Greg Clark needs to step up to this and make sure Honda commit to making sure people get found jobs as the factory closes.

    Why build here with our uncertain future when the world's largest market is just a stone's throw away and we're not part of it?
    Because the British manufacturers at the top end of the car market don't care too much about Europe. Their biggest markets are the USA, China, Middle East and the domestic UK market.

    Rolls-Royce and McLaren are not about to start making cars elsewhere, nor to they have the volumes to open a second factory. A significant part of their branding is British expertise in luxury and performance vehicles.
    I have been to the Audi BMW and Mercedes factories in Germany having shot commercials for all three. They were all in their different ways like the Guggenheim in Bilbao. i've never seen factories like them. i don't know what the British ones are like but I suspect if they were anything like the German ones they'd have sell-out guided tours.
    I once had to fly a senior Bahraini officer in a Hawk to the Hawk assembly line Brough. It was fucking filthy and looked like something out of Dickens but he was courteous enough to pretend to be impressed. We had a fierce night out in Hull with BAe after though where he got wrecked and pulled a fatty who milked him dry. As we flew over the wild majesty of northern England limned in the white gold of the winter sun on the next morning he said simply, "My balls hurt."
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,676
    edited February 2019

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    notme2 said:

    We truly have a stunning jobs miracle. The fact that it is largely unremarked on is maybe a sign of the times.

    We are now ironically firmly in the arena of harming economic growth by restricting migration.

    The other aspect to Japanese companies moving production back to Japan is that Japanese immigration policy is liberalizing very fast.
    About time. That has been a major drag on their growth for decades.
    Very funny to hear this from a Leaver.
    Do you think Japan will liberalise to FOM with their Asian neighbours?
    If they are under 35 they might have to.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    notme2 said:

    We truly have a stunning jobs miracle. The fact that it is largely unremarked on is maybe a sign of the times.

    We are now ironically firmly in the arena of harming economic growth by restricting migration.

    The other aspect to Japanese companies moving production back to Japan is that Japanese immigration policy is liberalizing very fast.
    About time. That has been a major drag on their growth for decades.
    Very funny to hear this from a Leaver.
    Do you think Japan will liberalise to FOM with their Asian neighbours?
    If they are under 35 they might have to.
    If you have EU style FOM there aren't any ifs.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    One politician who has impressed me in recent weeks, much to my surprise, has been Tom Watson.

    He used to be a bit of a thug, in Brown days. Perhaps he still is. His behaviour over the child abuse accusations was very poor indeed.

    And yet he has made two good speeches in recent weeks: one about Mrs May’s failings as leader, which applied to more people than just her. And his statement on Facebook last night following the departure of the Tiggers (brilliant name BTW @Anazina!) was very thoughtful. It struck me as the speech of a leader, of someone who wants to be leader, someone who will be leader, if the opportunity arises.

    One to watch, I think.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,676

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    notme2 said:

    We truly have a stunning jobs miracle. The fact that it is largely unremarked on is maybe a sign of the times.

    We are now ironically firmly in the arena of harming economic growth by restricting migration.

    The other aspect to Japanese companies moving production back to Japan is that Japanese immigration policy is liberalizing very fast.
    About time. That has been a major drag on their growth for decades.
    Very funny to hear this from a Leaver.
    Do you think Japan will liberalise to FOM with their Asian neighbours?
    If they are under 35 they might have to.
    If you have EU style FOM there aren't any ifs.
    I think EiT has answered more appropriately.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,826
    Sandpit said:

    Roger said:

    Sandpit said:

    Roger said:

    Sandpit said:


    No-one mentions companies like McLaren adding over a thousand jobs in the last two years, nor Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Aston Martin, Lotus, TVR, eight out of ten F1 teams, Formula E teams and a whole lot of other car-related manufacturing companies within an hour’s drive of Swindon - all of whom are hiring right now.

    Hopefully the company and the relevant government departments will find ways to place people around the industry. Greg Clark needs to step up to this and make sure Honda commit to making sure people get found jobs as the factory closes.

    Why build here with our uncertain future when the world's largest market is just a stone's throw away and we're not part of it?
    Because the British manufacturers at the top end of the car market don't care too much about Europe. Their biggest markets are the USA, China, Middle East and the domestic UK market.

    Rolls-Royce and McLaren are not about to start making cars elsewhere, nor to they have the volumes to open a second factory. A significant part of their branding is British expertise in luxury and performance vehicles.
    I have been to the Audi BMW and Mercedes factories in Germany having shot commercials for all three. They were all in their different ways like the Guggenheim in Bilbao. i've never seen factories like them. i don't know what the British ones are like but I suspect if they were anything like the German ones they'd have sell-out guided tours.
    Here you go:
    https://www.pocket-lint.com/cars/news/mclaren/120297-mclaren-technology-centre
    Thank you. Very stylish. The difference is in the scale. the German ones are literally towns where everything appears to be involved in the production of the cars and looking after the workers. Like a modern day Port Sunlight. My thought when i saw these futuristic German colossuses- -was who could ever compete?
  • While the likes of Berger (whose family history is labour through and through) leave labour....

    https://twitter.com/jeremyfwilcox1/status/1097617578942447621?s=21
  • IanB2 said:

    brendan16 said:

    IanB2 said:

    brendan16 said:

    OK, so I've just come home from a holiday in India to some really exciting Party news. Would be interesting to see how many more Labour MPs jump ship in the next few days.

    Will Wes Streeting join Mike Gapes in the Tiggers and make Ilford a one party Tigger state?

    Perhaps they will have to rename Redbridge - as 'not so Red bridge'?

    PS Hope you had a nice holiday!
    Thanks!

    Ilford South is pretty much as safe Labour as you can get - mum and I were debating with our cab driver coming back from Heathrow how much of a personal vote Gapes has. We came to the conclusion - not much!

    Ilford North until as recently as 2015 had a Tory MP, Lee Scott. But at GE2015 Wes Streeting won it, and at GE2017 his majority sky-rocketed, making the seat pretty safe.
    Gapes will retire next time anyway. He was facing replacement by a Muslim candidate anyway. Of the Tiggers he sticks out as a dinosaur amongst modernisers.
    As you say Ilford has changed massively demographically in the last 10-15 years like much of outer east London. Neither Gapes or Streeting are exactly representative of the area and the local community anymore.

    They would stand no chance as independents against what would be a BAME/female Labour candidate. They are also seats with high population turnovers relatively - so its harder for any person to build up a loyal personal vote.

    Indeed I doubt any of the 7 would hold their seats - where are the backers, the infrastructure and the voting base?
    They need to set out to break the political system. Chuka was striking the right tone on R4 this morning. Leave the LDs and Greens alone in their handfuls of strong areas, probably give Scotland less priority from the off, and hope for a clear run elsewhere.

    People have been bemoaning the abject state of the ossified two-party system for years. So now is the time.
    When people said the political system needed to be broken I don’t think they meant a group of politicians elected on one party’s manifesto should stand for another, pledging to ignore the referendum vote. Sounds more authoritarian than anything that preceded it!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,179
    Rexel56 said:

    How the Honda decision is being reported in Asia:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Honda-to-shut-UK-plant-by-2022-in-another-Brexit-retreat

    Honda to shut UK plant by 2022 in another Brexit retreat

    The prospect of Brexit, scheduled for March 29, added yet more uncertainty to a business already mired in red ink. While peer automakers are planning more moderate measures such as temporary stoppages in light of Brexit-linked uncertainty, Honda plans to go a step further by shutting down its only production site in Europe.

    Other international companies, including Japanese electronics makers Panasonic and Sony, plan to relocate certain British operations to the European mainland.

    I was European FD for one of the big Japanese electronics companies in the 80s and 90s. Whilst they are now more diverse in their senior management ranks, I would have thought that some of the old ways of thinking persist. And that doesn’t bode well for the U.K. The Japanese corporations compete fiercely in their day-to-day operations but act together far more strategically. The Japanese Government always played a key role in setting the long term strategic ambitions for exports and overseas presence. If Japan plc has decided to withdraw from U.K. manufacturing then, whilst each corporation will set its own timetable, the end game will be the same.

    One final point, the Japanese preferred the U.K. for manufacturing and as a base for sales and marketing for many reasons: homogeneity of workforce, language, driving on the right side of the road, willingness of the U.K. government to seeing U.K-owned manufacturing sites bought up by Japanese corps, compliant Unions even willing to enter no-strike deals etc etc. BUT, the contrary factor that frightened them even in the 90s was the thought that the U.K. would become detached from the EU...
    Looking back, May's 2016 conference speech might be seen as the real killer blow to Brexit and the UK's reputation. She indicated we'd be leaving the single market and customs union without considering the impact on the island of Ireland, and disregarded a warning from the Japanese government that had been published only a few weeks earlier.
  • Cyclefree said:

    One politician who has impressed me in recent weeks, much to my surprise, has been Tom Watson.

    He used to be a bit of a thug, in Brown days. Perhaps he still is. His behaviour over the child abuse accusations was very poor indeed.

    And yet he has made two good speeches in recent weeks: one about Mrs May’s failings as leader, which applied to more people than just her. And his statement on Facebook last night following the departure of the Tiggers (brilliant name BTW @Anazina!) was very thoughtful. It struck me as the speech of a leader, of someone who wants to be leader, someone who will be leader, if the opportunity arises.

    One to watch, I think.

    Leader of which party?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,207

    How the Honda decision is being reported in Asia:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Honda-to-shut-UK-plant-by-2022-in-another-Brexit-retreat

    Honda to shut UK plant by 2022 in another Brexit retreat

    The prospect of Brexit, scheduled for March 29, added yet more uncertainty to a business already mired in red ink. While peer automakers are planning more moderate measures such as temporary stoppages in light of Brexit-linked uncertainty, Honda plans to go a step further by shutting down its only production site in Europe.

    Other international companies, including Japanese electronics makers Panasonic and Sony, plan to relocate certain British operations to the European mainland.

    “This decision was not informed by Brexit,” said Honda Chief Executive Takahiro Hachigo.

    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-honda-idUKKCN1Q80KF
    Nothing I have read says Honda's decision would have been any different if we had voted to Remain.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,068
    DavidL said:

    Honda aside, today saw the release of another very strong set of jobs numbers, with the economy adding 427,000 full time jobs in the last year, and a significant q-o-q reduction in both unemployment and inactivity.

    Pay growth continues to sit at 3.4%, expanding its lead over inflation slightly to 1.3% - although these things take time to feed into people's wallets in a meaningful way.

    Even as someone who tends towards the optimistic on the economy I find these figures bewildering. If output is only rising modestly what the hell are all these people doing? How many fast food delivery cyclists can our economy sustain?
    In all likelihood, in future years, the ONS will revise output numbers up, as they did for the 2010-2013 period (remember the "double dip recession" of 2012 which turned out never to have happened). No one truly believes that construction output only rose by 0.7% last year, for example.
  • Mr. Mark, watched a spot of the BBC news just now. Honda top story. The newsreader repeated the Japanese bigwig's comment that this wasn't anything to do with leaving the EU, though that was mentioned repeatedly throughout, more often than the FTA between the EU and Japan. I don't think diesel's decline was mentioned once.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269

    Dura_Ace said:

    Honda announcement:

    https://global.honda/newsroom/news/2019/c190219beng.html

    19 February, 2019 - Honda has today announced it will restructure its global manufacturing network. This restructure comes as Honda accelerates its commitment to electrified cars, in response to the unprecedented changes in the global automotive industry. The significant challenges of electrification will see Honda revise its global manufacturing operations, and focus activity in regions where it expects to have high production volumes.

    No mention of the 'B' word.....

    Give it up. Everyone thinks it's Brexit and perception is reality.
    And it is at least partly Brexit.

    The determination of Brexiters to deny the loud sucking noise of investment leaving these shores is pathological.
    They don't care. They would eat grass so long as Britain had no links with the EU and could be vile to foreigners.
    I simply don’t understand what my country is becoming or, more accurately, what some in the country seem to want it become.
This discussion has been closed.