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  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    As is typical in this demented media age, Angela Smith’s brain freeze (which makes a kind of sense in context) is wilfully construed as a racist slur by her opponents.

    Is there a word for people like Owen Jones who bandy about accusations of racism in bad faith?

    How does what she said make any sense? I’ve seen the clip that supposedly provides context, can’t say it convinces me
    She tried to get down with da kidz by adopting the same jargon as Ash Everywhere Now On The Radio/TV used in terms of describing peoples' colour. But got it badly wrong.

    Not racist by a million miles, but knock yourself out being outraged.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,621
    edited February 2019
    IanB2 said:

    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    At the moment they are lacking a critical mass. The SDP managed because they had Roy, Owen, Shirley and,,,the other one (sorry Bill). The current leadership of the Independents is nothing like that profile. Most of them have spent the last 2-3 years sulking in their tents with minimal media attention.

    This could have been offset by numbers but 7 is at least 35 too small. They need others to sign up, ideally (from their point of view) including some Tories and they need this quickly. At the moment they are in danger of simply disappearing.

    My provisional view is that this is going to be a zephyr in a thimble.

    Polly Toynbee (who must have been a potential recruit) is scathing about them today on much the same grounds, and because their timing risks the Brexit-delaying moves. Unlike Mike I think their policy vacuum is a serious mistake - they aren't offering a banner to rally around, merely saying they're unhappy with Corbyn and Labour. Labour supporters say oh well, goodbye; non-Labour supporters say quite right, sound judgment, but there is no obvious reason to actually join up with them.

    Vince was quite cool about them too, I noticed, and conversely they said at the press conference that they weren't joining the LibDems because they lacked credibility. What we appear to have is as much a centre ground split as a split in the big parties.
    I think you underestimate the desire for something in-between the ERG and The Corbyn Clique
    Yet the Lib Dems and Greens can't fill that void?
    As has been identified, the gap in the market isn't for a strongly liberal party, which is always a minority position, but for a sensible but reforming centrist party with what you might call more traditional values. So far TIG appear to be trying to position themselves in that space.
    The TIG seems to be more economically liberal (Orangebookers, Blairite) than the current LibDems but less socially liberal (Traditional). They share an open international outlook.

    TIG could appeal more to Tory voters than Labour, particularly Tory Remainers. It would be helpful if some Tory MPs joined TIG.
  • Is it true that the Swindon Honda plant is on the site of a Spitfire factory? Perhaps it's time for the UK to go full on for the nostalgic reconstruction and innovative jam markets.

    https://twitter.com/tradegovuk/status/1040903048892018688
  • Scott_P said:
    What are we supposed to be looking at? Surely there will be a new candidate in any constituency where the current member leaves the party, whichever party?
  • Mr. Walker, it's my understanding that the Tigger manifesto is to be flouncy, bouncy, pouncy, fun fun fun fun fun.
  • TOPPING said:

    As is typical in this demented media age, Angela Smith’s brain freeze (which makes a kind of sense in context) is wilfully construed as a racist slur by her opponents.

    Is there a word for people like Owen Jones who bandy about accusations of racism in bad faith?

    How does what she said make any sense? I’ve seen the clip that supposedly provides context, can’t say it convinces me
    She tried to get down with da kidz by adopting the same jargon as Ash Everywhere Now On The Radio/TV used in terms of describing peoples' colour. But got it badly wrong.

    Not racist by a million miles, but knock yourself out being outraged.
    Who’s outraged? She said ‘funny tinge’ because Ash Sakar said her adopted dad was ‘pinkish’? So the funny tinge was Ash Sakar’s Dads colour?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    Is it true that the Swindon Honda plant is on the site of a Spitfire factory? Perhaps it's time for the UK to go full on for the nostalgic reconstruction and innovative jam markets.

    https://twitter.com/tradegovuk/status/1040903048892018688

    Is this the one found crashed in Norway, that's going to be rebuilt on the Isle of Wight?
  • TOPPING said:

    As is typical in this demented media age, Angela Smith’s brain freeze (which makes a kind of sense in context) is wilfully construed as a racist slur by her opponents.

    Is there a word for people like Owen Jones who bandy about accusations of racism in bad faith?

    How does what she said make any sense? I’ve seen the clip that supposedly provides context, can’t say it convinces me
    She tried to get down with da kidz by adopting the same jargon as Ash Everywhere Now On The Radio/TV used in terms of describing peoples' colour. But got it badly wrong.

    Not racist by a million miles, but knock yourself out being outraged.
    I'd agree. Not the best choice of words, and I think you can tell her mouth is moving but her brain has had a belt come off, but it's a bit harsh to call racist.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    As is typical in this demented media age, Angela Smith’s brain freeze (which makes a kind of sense in context) is wilfully construed as a racist slur by her opponents.

    Is there a word for people like Owen Jones who bandy about accusations of racism in bad faith?

    How does what she said make any sense? I’ve seen the clip that supposedly provides context, can’t say it convinces me
    You do realise that makes *you* the racist, don’t you?
    Does it?! What did I do?
    Angela Smith might be a bit thick, but it seems unlikely she’s harbouring a kind of racist Tourette’s syndrome.

    Ash Sarkar made some comments about her relatives being “pinkish”. Smith obviously looks to have construed this as an absurdist comment, and then when trying to refer back to it used the term “funny tinge”.

    It’s awkward as hell, but you can see how she got there.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    Barnesian said:

    IanB2 said:

    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    At the moment they are lacking a critical mass. The SDP managed because they had Roy, Owen, Shirley and,,,the other one (sorry Bill). The current leadership of the Independents is nothing like that profile. Most of them have spent the last 2-3 years sulking in their tents with minimal media attention.

    This could have been offset by numbers but 7 is at least 35 too small. They need others to sign up, ideally (from their point of view) including some Tories and they need this quickly. At the moment they are in danger of simply disappearing.

    My provisional view is that this is going to be a zephyr in a thimble.

    Polly Toynbee (who must have been a potential recruit) is scathing about them today on much the same grounds, and because their timing risks the Brexit-delaying moves. Unlike Mike I think their policy vacuum is a serious mistake - they aren't offering a banner to rally around, merely saying they're unhappy with Corbyn and Labour. Labour supporters say oh well, goodbye; non-Labour supporters say quite right, sound judgment, but there is no obvious reason to actually join up with them.

    Vince was quite cool about them too, I noticed, and conversely they said at the press conference that they weren't joining the LibDems because they lacked credibility. What we appear to have is as much a centre ground split as a split in the big parties.
    I think you underestimate the desire for something in-between the ERG and The Corbyn Clique
    Yet the Lib Dems and Greens can't fill that void?
    As has been identified, the gap in the market isn't for a strongly liberal party, which is always a minority position, but for a sensible but reforming centrist party with what you might call more traditional values. So far TIG appear to be trying to position themselves in that space.
    The TIG seems to be more economically liberal (Orangebookers, Blairite) than the current LibDems but less socially liberal (Traditional). They share an open international outlook.

    TIG could appeal more to Tory voters than Labour, particularly Tory Remainers. It would be helpful if some Tory MPs joined TIG.
    Yep, that's definitely the next move, rumoured as possible early next week. Without that they will struggle to be seen as anything other than a lifeboat for unhappy Labourites.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    It's pretty simple: if Labour was the broad church it used to be fools like Richard Burgon and Barry Gardiner would not be on the front bench and the likes of Cooper, Benn, Nandy and Lammy would be in the shadow cabinet.

    That's correct. Interestingly Mcdonnell much more conciliatory today suggesting they're rattled. The Hatton thing however is grotesque and shows the true direction of travel.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,621
    edited February 2019
    Wrong reply
  • Is it true that the Swindon Honda plant is on the site of a Spitfire factory?

    Yes.

    It's all getting very retro:

    https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/1097579703890821120
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298

    It's pretty simple: if Labour was the broad church it used to be fools like Richard Burgon and Barry Gardiner would not be on the front bench and the likes of Cooper, Benn, Nandy and Lammy would be in the shadow cabinet.

    Do any of those four actually want to be in the shadow Cabinet?
    Nandy said she wanted back in (2017) but I doubt the others would.
    And to be fair, why shouldn't Corbyn stick with people who stayed loyal, any other leader would do the same. He brought back Owen Smith and that didn't exactly do him any favours.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    It's pretty simple: if Labour was the broad church it used to be fools like Richard Burgon and Barry Gardiner would not be on the front bench and the likes of Cooper, Benn, Nandy and Lammy would be in the shadow cabinet.

    Do any of those four actually want to be in the shadow Cabinet?
    Lammy and Burgon are closely matched intellectually :)
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,621

    As is typical in this demented media age, Angela Smith’s brain freeze (which makes a kind of sense in context) is wilfully construed as a racist slur by her opponents.

    Is there a word for people like Owen Jones who bandy about accusations of racism in bad faith?

    How does what she said make any sense? I’ve seen the clip that supposedly provides context, can’t say it convinces me
    You do realise that makes *you* the racist, don’t you?
    Does it?! What did I do?
    Angela Smith might be a bit thick, but it seems unlikely she’s harbouring a kind of racist Tourette’s syndrome.

    Ash Sarkar made some comments about her relatives being “pinkish”. Smith obviously looks to have construed this as an absurdist comment, and then when trying to refer back to it used the term “funny tinge”.

    It’s awkward as hell, but you can see how she got there.
    Yes, you may be right. Perhaps I was being uncharitable.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    Real slow motion car crash after Smith says the word 'funny'. You can see her realising that she's blundering whilst 'tinge' is seeping out half hidden and quietly but her brain is powerless to completely stop her mouth !
  • As is typical in this demented media age, Angela Smith’s brain freeze (which makes a kind of sense in context) is wilfully construed as a racist slur by her opponents.

    Is there a word for people like Owen Jones who bandy about accusations of racism in bad faith?

    How does what she said make any sense? I’ve seen the clip that supposedly provides context, can’t say it convinces me
    You do realise that makes *you* the racist, don’t you?
    Does it?! What did I do?
    Angela Smith might be a bit thick, but it seems unlikely she’s harbouring a kind of racist Tourette’s syndrome.
    It's funny how a consistent pattern of behaviour in one politician is seen as 'idiosyncratic' and in another a single maladroit phrase proof of deeply imbedded racism....
  • IanB2 said:

    Is it true that the Swindon Honda plant is on the site of a Spitfire factory? Perhaps it's time for the UK to go full on for the nostalgic reconstruction and innovative jam markets.

    https://twitter.com/tradegovuk/status/1040903048892018688

    Is this the one found crashed in Norway, that's going to be rebuilt on the Isle of Wight?
    they make 2/3rds scale Spitfires near Oxford - a bunch of mad volunteers, all 'hail fellow well met' types - good fun
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    At the moment they are lacking a critical mass. The SDP managed because they had Roy, Owen, Shirley and,,,the other one (sorry Bill). The current leadership of the Independents is nothing like that profile. Most of them have spent the last 2-3 years sulking in their tents with minimal media attention.

    This could have been offset by numbers but 7 is at least 35 too small. They need others to sign up, ideally (from their point of view) including some Tories and they need this quickly. At the moment they are in danger of simply disappearing.

    My provisional view is that this is going to be a zephyr in a thimble.

    Polly Toynbee (who must have been a potential recruit) is scathing about them today on much the same grounds, and because their timing risks the Brexit-delaying moves. Unlike Mike I think their policy vacuum is a serious mistake - they aren't offering a banner to rally around, merely saying they're unhappy with Corbyn and Labour. Labour supporters say oh well, goodbye; non-Labour supporters say quite right, sound judgment, but there is no obvious reason to actually join up with them.

    Vince was quite cool about them too, I noticed, and conversely they said at the press conference that they weren't joining the LibDems because they lacked credibility. What we appear to have is as much a centre ground split as a split in the big parties.
    I think you underestimate the desire for something in-between the ERG and The Corbyn Clique
    Yet the Lib Dems and Greens can't fill that void?
    We have an electoral system that pretty much guarantees that unless you are voting Labour/Tory you may as well stay at home. It is not a coincidence that other movements like En Marche, 5 Star, Podemos etc have have only emerged in countries with PR.

    We are stuck with Buggin's turn while the other 27 EU countries have more sophisticated and responsive electoral systems. Of course, as always, they are all wrong and Britain is right.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    As is typical in this demented media age, Angela Smith’s brain freeze (which makes a kind of sense in context) is wilfully construed as a racist slur by her opponents.

    Is there a word for people like Owen Jones who bandy about accusations of racism in bad faith?

    How does what she said make any sense? I’ve seen the clip that supposedly provides context, can’t say it convinces me
    She tried to get down with da kidz by adopting the same jargon as Ash Everywhere Now On The Radio/TV used in terms of describing peoples' colour. But got it badly wrong.

    Not racist by a million miles, but knock yourself out being outraged.
    Who’s outraged? She said ‘funny tinge’ because Ash Sakar said her adopted dad was ‘pinkish’? So the funny tinge was Ash Sakar’s Dads colour?
    Not sure. Perhaps. Gauche? Absolutely. Out of touch? Yes sirree. But not imo racist.
  • As is typical in this demented media age, Angela Smith’s brain freeze (which makes a kind of sense in context) is wilfully construed as a racist slur by her opponents.

    Is there a word for people like Owen Jones who bandy about accusations of racism in bad faith?

    How does what she said make any sense? I’ve seen the clip that supposedly provides context, can’t say it convinces me
    You do realise that makes *you* the racist, don’t you?
    Does it?! What did I do?
    Angela Smith might be a bit thick, but it seems unlikely she’s harbouring a kind of racist Tourette’s syndrome.

    Ash Sarkar made some comments about her relatives being “pinkish”. Smith obviously looks to have construed this as an absurdist comment, and then when trying to refer back to it used the term “funny tinge”.

    It’s awkward as hell, but you can see how she got there.
    I’m not sure. She says ‘funny tinge’ in the context of ‘being in the BAME community’, which a pinkish white man isn't. Had she meant that, she could have just said so rather than apologise so profusely.

    I don’t think she is racist or meant any harm, just surprised at the unusually forgiving acceptance of that kind of slip up.

    https://twitter.com/bbcpolitics/status/1097526500998303745?s=21
  • The bigger Brexit issue with Swindon is how those who lose their jobs will find new ones at similar skill and pay levels. Where are the new investments going to come from now that we are leaving the single market?

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631

    Speaking of impossible promises, KLOBUCHAR just did a town hall on CNN and refused to take part in the Democratic bidding war. Check out the questioner's sad face at the end:
    https://twitter.com/KFILE/status/1097707758521143296

    I'm not sure how "No we can't" is going to fly as a political message, but we'll see.
    Thats the problem the Democrats have. AOC and her ilk are going to push any 2020 runner to the more extreme end of policy, making Trumps run easiler.
    Yup. They need to quickly decide whether they’re interested in beating Trump in 2020, or running up massive majorities in CA, NY and the NE states that makes them feel good.

    Ms Klobuchar gave the right answer to the question if they’re interested in beating Trump.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    Sandpit said:

    Speaking of impossible promises, KLOBUCHAR just did a town hall on CNN and refused to take part in the Democratic bidding war. Check out the questioner's sad face at the end:
    https://twitter.com/KFILE/status/1097707758521143296

    I'm not sure how "No we can't" is going to fly as a political message, but we'll see.
    Thats the problem the Democrats have. AOC and her ilk are going to push any 2020 runner to the more extreme end of policy, making Trumps run easiler.
    Yup. They need to quickly decide whether they’re interested in beating Trump in 2020, or running up massive majorities in CA, NY and the NE states that makes them feel good.

    Ms Klobuchar gave the right answer to the question if they’re interested in beating Trump.
    I think Klobuchar would win just as well in California as someone from the AOC side of the party.
  • The bigger Brexit issue with Swindon is how those who lose their jobs will find new ones at similar skill and pay levels. Where are the new investments going to come from now that we are leaving the single market?
    Yes - that will be the challenge, which one day, the government might turn its attention to....
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Sandpit said:

    Honda announcement:

    https://global.honda/newsroom/news/2019/c190219beng.html

    19 February, 2019 - Honda has today announced it will restructure its global manufacturing network. This restructure comes as Honda accelerates its commitment to electrified cars, in response to the unprecedented changes in the global automotive industry. The significant challenges of electrification will see Honda revise its global manufacturing operations, and focus activity in regions where it expects to have high production volumes.

    No mention of the 'B' word.....

    Interesting statement. As we discussed on here yesterday, the car industry globally is in a massive state of flux at the moment - except for at the top end of luxury, performance and motorsport, which are a massive British industry success story.

    Hopefully Honda will work with employees and government to minimise the impact on those affected by this closure.

    What's immediately clear though, is that a certain element of the #FPBE crowd, particularly on Twitter, are overjoyed at and celebrating anyone who announces job losses. Not a good look.
    See “Roger” here for that attitude in action.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    The bigger Brexit issue with Swindon is how those who lose their jobs will find new ones at similar skill and pay levels. Where are the new investments going to come from now that we are leaving the single market?

    European electric vehicle manufacture, for which you certainly want tariff free access to the EU...
  • The bigger Brexit issue with Swindon is how those who lose their jobs will find new ones at similar skill and pay levels. Where are the new investments going to come from now that we are leaving the single market?

    The head of a recruitment agency covering the Wiltshire and Bristol areas said on 5 live this morning that the high skills of the workforce are in much demand due to a current skills shortage and because of the timeline to 2021 he was confident most of the workforce would find alternative high skill jobs in the area
  • Is it true that the Swindon Honda plant is on the site of a Spitfire factory?

    Yes.

    It's all getting very retro:

    https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/1097579703890821120
    Wonder how long it'll be till they're having nostalgathons for the Airbus A380?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    Nicola Sturgeon: "For me, this is one of the saddest parts of Brexit. The UK government is proclaiming the end of free movement as a victory - instead, it is a self-defeating measure. It removes opportunity from millions of people."
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Is it true that the Swindon Honda plant is on the site of a Spitfire factory? Perhaps it's time for the UK to go full on for the nostalgic reconstruction and innovative jam markets.

    https://twitter.com/tradegovuk/status/1040903048892018688

    Most Spitfires were made at Castle Bromwich. Various components for specialist marques like the PRs were made in other parts of the country.
  • As is typical in this demented media age, Angela Smith’s brain freeze (which makes a kind of sense in context) is wilfully construed as a racist slur by her opponents.

    Is there a word for people like Owen Jones who bandy about accusations of racism in bad faith?

    How does what she said make any sense? I’ve seen the clip that supposedly provides context, can’t say it convinces me
    You do realise that makes *you* the racist, don’t you?
    Does it?! What did I do?
    Angela Smith might be a bit thick, but it seems unlikely she’s harbouring a kind of racist Tourette’s syndrome.

    Ash Sarkar made some comments about her relatives being “pinkish”. Smith obviously looks to have construed this as an absurdist comment, and then when trying to refer back to it used the term “funny tinge”.

    It’s awkward as hell, but you can see how she got there.
    By the way, would you like to apologise for calling me racist? Or was it a joke that went over my head?
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Sandpit said:

    Speaking of impossible promises, KLOBUCHAR just did a town hall on CNN and refused to take part in the Democratic bidding war. Check out the questioner's sad face at the end:
    https://twitter.com/KFILE/status/1097707758521143296

    I'm not sure how "No we can't" is going to fly as a political message, but we'll see.
    Thats the problem the Democrats have. AOC and her ilk are going to push any 2020 runner to the more extreme end of policy, making Trumps run easiler.
    Yup. They need to quickly decide whether they’re interested in beating Trump in 2020, or running up massive majorities in CA, NY and the NE states that makes them feel good.

    Ms Klobuchar gave the right answer to the question if they’re interested in beating Trump.
    Have we learned nothing from "electable" Hiliary?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,010
    edited February 2019

    The bigger Brexit issue with Swindon is how those who lose their jobs will find new ones at similar skill and pay levels. Where are the new investments going to come from now that we are leaving the single market?

    Surely the Tories will just have to repeat the success of their re-skilling & redeployment policies of the 80s?
  • Is it true that the Swindon Honda plant is on the site of a Spitfire factory?

    Yes.

    It's all getting very retro:

    https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/1097579703890821120
    Wonder how long it'll be till they're having nostalgathons for the Airbus A380?
    I'll miss it when its gone - much prefer it to the 350 or 787 in the cheap seats.....bl££dy accountants.....Qatar will be retiring theirs when they get to 10 years old and while Emirates will likely keep them flying a while longer other airlines like SQ may only have them in their fleets for another decade or so. The first one I flew on has already been broken up.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    As is typical in this demented media age, Angela Smith’s brain freeze (which makes a kind of sense in context) is wilfully construed as a racist slur by her opponents.

    Is there a word for people like Owen Jones who bandy about accusations of racism in bad faith?

    How does what she said make any sense? I’ve seen the clip that supposedly provides context, can’t say it convinces me
    You do realise that makes *you* the racist, don’t you?
    Does it?! What did I do?
    Angela Smith might be a bit thick, but it seems unlikely she’s harbouring a kind of racist Tourette’s syndrome.

    Ash Sarkar made some comments about her relatives being “pinkish”. Smith obviously looks to have construed this as an absurdist comment, and then when trying to refer back to it used the term “funny tinge”.

    It’s awkward as hell, but you can see how she got there.
    By the way, would you like to apologise for calling me racist? Or was it a joke that went over my head?
    It was a joke. Probably.
  • Mr. Stereotomy, to be fair, Clinton would've won, almost certainly, had she not deployed her considerable campaigning resources in an obviously foolish manner.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631

    The bigger Brexit issue with Swindon is how those who lose their jobs will find new ones at similar skill and pay levels. Where are the new investments going to come from now that we are leaving the single market?

    No-one mentions companies like McLaren adding over a thousand jobs in the last two years, nor Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Aston Martin, Lotus, TVR, eight out of ten F1 teams, Formula E teams and a whole lot of other car-related manufacturing companies within an hour’s drive of Swindon - all of whom are hiring right now.

    Hopefully the company and the relevant government departments will find ways to place people around the industry. Greg Clark needs to step up to this and make sure Honda commit to making sure people get found jobs as the factory closes.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Pulpstar said:

    The bigger Brexit issue with Swindon is how those who lose their jobs will find new ones at similar skill and pay levels. Where are the new investments going to come from now that we are leaving the single market?

    European electric vehicle manufacture, for which you certainly want tariff free access to the EU...
    Let's imagine no Brexit, or a benign Brexit. Do you think the govt would have (a la Nissan) made a huge play to be Honda's EU electric car manufacturing (or even assembly) hub or somehow to keep something here?

    With the Brexit we seem to be heading towards, together with the current uncertainty, that was not possible.
  • As is typical in this demented media age, Angela Smith’s brain freeze (which makes a kind of sense in context) is wilfully construed as a racist slur by her opponents.

    Is there a word for people like Owen Jones who bandy about accusations of racism in bad faith?

    How does what she said make any sense? I’ve seen the clip that supposedly provides context, can’t say it convinces me
    You do realise that makes *you* the racist, don’t you?
    Does it?! What did I do?
    Angela Smith might be a bit thick, but it seems unlikely she’s harbouring a kind of racist Tourette’s syndrome.

    Ash Sarkar made some comments about her relatives being “pinkish”. Smith obviously looks to have construed this as an absurdist comment, and then when trying to refer back to it used the term “funny tinge”.

    It’s awkward as hell, but you can see how she got there.
    By the way, would you like to apologise for calling me racist? Or was it a joke that went over my head?
    It was a joke. Probably.
    What does that mean?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626
    Barnesian said:

    IanB2 said:

    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    At the moment they are lacking a critical mass. The SDP managed because they had Roy, Owen, Shirley and,,,the other one (sorry Bill). The current leadership of the Independents is nothing like that profile. Most of them have spent the last 2-3 years sulking in their tents with minimal media attention.

    This could have been offset by numbers but 7 is at least 35 too small. They need others to sign up, ideally (from their point of view) including some Tories and they need this quickly. At the moment they are in danger of simply disappearing.

    My provisional view is that this is going to be a zephyr in a thimble.

    Polly Toynbee (who must have been a potential recruit) is scathing about them today on much the same grounds, and because their timing risks the Brexit-delaying moves. Unlike Mike I think their policy vacuum is a serious mistake - they aren't offering a banner to rally around, merely saying they're unhappy with Corbyn and Labour. Labour supporters say oh well, goodbye; non-Labour supporters say quite right, sound judgment, but there is no obvious reason to actually join up with them.

    Vince was quite cool about them too, I noticed, and conversely they said at the press conference that they weren't joining the LibDems because they lacked credibility. What we appear to have is as much a centre ground split as a split in the big parties.
    I think you underestimate the desire for something in-between the ERG and The Corbyn Clique
    Yet the Lib Dems and Greens can't fill that void?
    As has been identified, the gap in the market isn't for a strongly liberal party, which is always a minority position, but for a sensible but reforming centrist party with what you might call more traditional values. So far TIG appear to be trying to position themselves in that space.
    The TIG seems to be more economically liberal (Orangebookers, Blairite) than the current LibDems but less socially liberal (Traditional). They share an open international outlook.

    TIG could appeal more to Tory voters than Labour, particularly Tory Remainers. It would be helpful if some Tory MPs joined TIG.
    But look at any of the Tories touted as TIG-joiners. Their voting records outside Brexit are massively misaligned. It will not make for a coherent party once Brexit is resolved.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,387
    OllyT said:

    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    At the moment they are lacking a critical mass. The SDP managed because they had Roy, Owen, Shirley and,,,the other one (sorry Bill). The current leadership of the Independents is nothing like that profile. Most of them have spent the last 2-3 years sulking in their tents with minimal media attention.

    This could have been offset by numbers but 7 is at least 35 too small. They need others to sign up, ideally (from their point of view) including some Tories and they need this quickly. At the moment they are in danger of simply disappearing.

    My provisional view is that this is going to be a zephyr in a thimble.

    Polly Toynbee (who must have been a potential recruit) is scathing about them today on much the same grounds, and because their timing risks the Brexit-delaying moves. Unlike Mike I think their policy vacuum is a serious mistake - they aren't offering a banner to rally around, merely saying they're unhappy with Corbyn and Labour. Labour supporters say oh well, goodbye; non-Labour supporters say quite right, sound judgment, but there is no obvious reason to actually join up with them.

    Vince was quite cool about them too, I noticed, and conversely they said at the press conference that they weren't joining the LibDems because they lacked credibility. What we appear to have is as much a centre ground split as a split in the big parties.
    I think you underestimate the desire for something in-between the ERG and The Corbyn Clique
    Yet the Lib Dems and Greens can't fill that void?
    We have an electoral system that pretty much guarantees that unless you are voting Labour/Tory you may as well stay at home. It is not a coincidence that other movements like En Marche, 5 Star, Podemos etc have have only emerged in countries with PR.

    We are stuck with Buggin's turn while the other 27 EU countries have more sophisticated and responsive electoral systems. Of course, as always, they are all wrong and Britain is right.
    Our system does generate change, but in a different manner to PR-based systems.

    And under PR, it's possible for a party to gain widespread support, while also being shut out by the established parties.
  • The bigger Brexit issue with Swindon is how those who lose their jobs will find new ones at similar skill and pay levels. Where are the new investments going to come from now that we are leaving the single market?

    The head of a recruitment agency covering the Wiltshire and Bristol areas said on 5 live this morning that the high skills of the workforce are in much demand due to a current skills shortage and because of the timeline to 2021 he was confident most of the workforce would find alternative high skill jobs in the area
    There's plenty of vacancies in manufacturing at present and recruitment is difficult.

    Though a concentration of job losses could bring difficulties locally.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631

    Is it true that the Swindon Honda plant is on the site of a Spitfire factory?

    Yes.

    It's all getting very retro:

    https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/1097579703890821120
    Wonder how long it'll be till they're having nostalgathons for the Airbus A380?
    I'll miss it when its gone - much prefer it to the 350 or 787 in the cheap seats.....bl££dy accountants.....Qatar will be retiring theirs when they get to 10 years old and while Emirates will likely keep them flying a while longer other airlines like SQ may only have them in their fleets for another decade or so. The first one I flew on has already been broken up.
    Emirates have already said that the latest orders will be replacement aircraft for older A380s. The first few dozen they made were horrendously overweight, limited in passenger numbers, cargo and range as a result.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    OllyT said:

    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    At the moment they are lacking a critical mass. The SDP managed because they had Roy, Owen, Shirley and,,,the other one (sorry Bill). The current leadership of the Independents is nothing like that profile. Most of them have spent the last 2-3 years sulking in their tents with minimal media attention.

    This could have been offset by numbers but 7 is at least 35 too small. They need others to sign up, ideally (from their point of view) including some Tories and they need this quickly. At the moment they are in danger of simply disappearing.

    My provisional view is that this is going to be a zephyr in a thimble.

    Polly Toynbee (who must have been a potential recruit) is scathing about them today on much the same grounds, and because their timing risks the Brexit-delaying moves. Unlike Mike I think their policy vacuum is a serious mistake - they aren't offering a banner to rally around, merely saying they're unhappy with Corbyn and Labour. Labour supporters say oh well, goodbye; non-Labour supporters say quite right, sound judgment, but there is no obvious reason to actually join up with them.

    Vince was quite cool about them too, I noticed, and conversely they said at the press conference that they weren't joining the LibDems because they lacked credibility. What we appear to have is as much a centre ground split as a split in the big parties.
    I think you underestimate the desire for something in-between the ERG and The Corbyn Clique
    Yet the Lib Dems and Greens can't fill that void?
    We have an electoral system that pretty much guarantees that unless you are voting Labour/Tory you may as well stay at home. It is not a coincidence that other movements like En Marche, 5 Star, Podemos etc have have only emerged in countries with PR.

    We are stuck with Buggin's turn while the other 27 EU countries have more sophisticated and responsive electoral systems. Of course, as always, they are all wrong and Britain is right.
    Not disagreeing. Although Macron won the presidency which is a single position and hence not PR.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    Barnesian said:

    IanB2 said:

    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    At the moment they are lacking a critical mass. The SDP managed because they had Roy, Owen, Shirley and,,,the other one (sorry Bill). The current leadership of the Independents is nothing like that profile. Most of them have spent the last 2-3 years sulking in their tents with minimal media attention.

    This could have been offset by numbers but 7 is at least 35 too small. They need others to sign up, ideally (from their point of view) including some Tories and they need this quickly. At the moment they are in danger of simply disappearing.

    My provisional view is that this is going to be a zephyr in a thimble.

    Polly Toynbee (who must have been a potential recruit) is scathing about them today on much the same grounds, and because their timing risks the Brexit-delaying moves. Unlike Mike I think their policy vacuum is a serious mistake - they aren't offering a banner to rally around, merely saying they're unhappy with Corbyn and Labour. Labour supporters say oh well, goodbye; non-Labour supporters say quite right, sound judgment, but there is no obvious reason to actually join up with them.

    Vince was quite cool about them too, I noticed, and conversely they said at the press conference that they weren't joining the LibDems because they lacked credibility. What we appear to have is as much a centre ground split as a split in the big parties.
    I think you underestimate the desire for something in-between the ERG and The Corbyn Clique
    Yet the Lib Dems and Greens can't fill that void?
    As has been identified, the gap in the market isn't for a strongly liberal party, which is always a minority position, but for a sensible but reforming centrist party with what you might call more traditional values. So far TIG appear to be trying to position themselves in that space.
    The TIG seems to be more economically liberal (Orangebookers, Blairite) than the current LibDems but less socially liberal (Traditional). They share an open international outlook.

    TIG could appeal more to Tory voters than Labour, particularly Tory Remainers. It would be helpful if some Tory MPs joined TIG.
    But look at any of the Tories touted as TIG-joiners. Their voting records outside Brexit are massively misaligned. It will not make for a coherent party once Brexit is resolved.
    Take apart either of the major parties and you could say the same, were it not for strong whipping.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,816
    edited February 2019
    I agree with the thread header by Mike. The set up provides flexibility for people who have different views, but a core view in common to work together. We have recently seen something similar in our local council regarding our local plan which is a fiasco and with an authoritarian Executive. Councillors of different outlooks are resigning from their party and banding together on something they agree on that overshadows everything else.
  • The bigger Brexit issue with Swindon is how those who lose their jobs will find new ones at similar skill and pay levels. Where are the new investments going to come from now that we are leaving the single market?

    The head of a recruitment agency covering the Wiltshire and Bristol areas said on 5 live this morning that the high skills of the workforce are in much demand due to a current skills shortage and because of the timeline to 2021 he was confident most of the workforce would find alternative high skill jobs in the area
    There's plenty of vacancies in manufacturing at present and recruitment is difficult.

    Though a concentration of job losses could bring difficulties locally.
    On the subject of vacancies, they have reached another new all time high of 870 thousand according to the ONS.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/timeseries/ap2y/unem

    It should be noted that vacancies are the most up to date of the ONS employment data.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    IanB2 said:

    Nicola Sturgeon: "For me, this is one of the saddest parts of Brexit. The UK government is proclaiming the end of free movement as a victory - instead, it is a self-defeating measure. It removes opportunity from millions of people."

    Exactly although some Brits still haven’t worked out that the end of freedom of movement relates to them . Some still think they’re special and can swan around the EU without a care in the world .
  • Sean_F said:

    OllyT said:

    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    At the moment they are lacking a critical mass. The SDP managed because they had Roy, Owen, Shirley and,,,the other one (sorry Bill). The current leadership of the Independents is nothing like that profile. Most of them have spent the last 2-3 years sulking in their tents with minimal media attention.

    This could have been offset by numbers but 7 is at least 35 too small. They need others to sign up, ideally (from their point of view) including some Tories and they need this quickly. At the moment they are in danger of simply disappearing.

    My provisional view is that this is going to be a zephyr in a thimble.

    Polly Toynbee (who must have been a potential recruit) is scathing about them today on much the same grounds, and because their timing risks the Brexit-delaying moves. Unlike Mike I think their policy vacuum is a serious mistake - they aren't offering a banner to rally around, merely saying they're unhappy with Corbyn and Labour. Labour supporters say oh well, goodbye; non-Labour supporters say quite right, sound judgment, but there is no obvious reason to actually join up with them.

    Vince was quite cool about them too, I noticed, and conversely they said at the press conference that they weren't joining the LibDems because they lacked credibility. What we appear to have is as much a centre ground split as a split in the big parties.
    I think you underestimate the desire for something in-between the ERG and The Corbyn Clique
    Yet the Lib Dems and Greens can't fill that void?
    We have an electoral system that pretty much guarantees that unless you are voting Labour/Tory you may as well stay at home. It is not a coincidence that other movements like En Marche, 5 Star, Podemos etc have have only emerged in countries with PR.

    We are stuck with Buggin's turn while the other 27 EU countries have more sophisticated and responsive electoral systems. Of course, as always, they are all wrong and Britain is right.
    Our system does generate change, but in a different manner to PR-based systems.

    And under PR, it's possible for a party to gain widespread support, while also being shut out by the established parties.
    My view is that there isn’t any electoral system that offers an obvious silver bullet.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,387
    Sandpit said:

    The bigger Brexit issue with Swindon is how those who lose their jobs will find new ones at similar skill and pay levels. Where are the new investments going to come from now that we are leaving the single market?

    No-one mentions companies like McLaren adding over a thousand jobs in the last two years, nor Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Aston Martin, Lotus, TVR, eight out of ten F1 teams, Formula E teams and a whole lot of other car-related manufacturing companies within an hour’s drive of Swindon - all of whom are hiring right now.

    Hopefully the company and the relevant government departments will find ways to place people around the industry. Greg Clark needs to step up to this and make sure Honda commit to making sure people get found jobs as the factory closes.
    Jobs being created don't attract headlines, unless the numbers are huge.
  • Mr. Sandpit, yesterday Wolff was making grumpy noises about the impact of a no deal departure on F1 teams, but that seemed a bit weird to me. Given 8/10 teams and all the supply chains have built up around here, surely that wouldn't have an impact?

    Maybe it would, but at first glance it seems peculiar. What d'you think?
  • Adonis on Sky News asked about the TIGS. Immediately blames Honda on Brexit. Calls for A50 to be revoked. I'm not sure if he is a one trick pony or he misheard the question....
  • TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The bigger Brexit issue with Swindon is how those who lose their jobs will find new ones at similar skill and pay levels. Where are the new investments going to come from now that we are leaving the single market?

    European electric vehicle manufacture, for which you certainly want tariff free access to the EU...
    Let's imagine no Brexit, or a benign Brexit. Do you think the govt would have (a la Nissan) made a huge play to be Honda's EU electric car manufacturing (or even assembly) hub or somehow to keep something here?

    With the Brexit we seem to be heading towards, together with the current uncertainty, that was not possible.
    Yes, if you were touting for international business, would you draw attention to Brexit as a potential advantage? The answer would appear obvious, but there's none so blind.....
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Mr. Stereotomy, to be fair, Clinton would've won, almost certainly, had she not deployed her considerable campaigning resources in an obviously foolish manner.

    Because the result was so close, there are quite a few individual mistakes which if corrected would probably have put her over the line. But equally I'm sure there are lots of mistakes Trump made which prevented him from getting a bigger lead.

    So yes, Hiliary could have won, but that doesn't change the fact that she utterly turned off her potential voters with the bland centrism that was supposed to be an electoral asset, while Trump excited his.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    The bigger Brexit issue with Swindon is how those who lose their jobs will find new ones at similar skill and pay levels. Where are the new investments going to come from now that we are leaving the single market?

    No-one mentions companies like McLaren adding over a thousand jobs in the last two years, nor Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Aston Martin, Lotus, TVR, eight out of ten F1 teams, Formula E teams and a whole lot of other car-related manufacturing companies within an hour’s drive of Swindon - all of whom are hiring right now.

    Hopefully the company and the relevant government departments will find ways to place people around the industry. Greg Clark needs to step up to this and make sure Honda commit to making sure people get found jobs as the factory closes.
    Jobs being created don't attract headlines, unless the numbers are huge.
    and losing Honda is still fewer jobs overall, however you look at it. Honda leaving isn't creating any (permanent) jobs
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Sandpit said:

    The bigger Brexit issue with Swindon is how those who lose their jobs will find new ones at similar skill and pay levels. Where are the new investments going to come from now that we are leaving the single market?

    No-one mentions companies like McLaren adding over a thousand jobs in the last two years, nor Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Aston Martin, Lotus, TVR, eight out of ten F1 teams, Formula E teams and a whole lot of other car-related manufacturing companies within an hour’s drive of Swindon - all of whom are hiring right now.

    Hopefully the company and the relevant government departments will find ways to place people around the industry. Greg Clark needs to step up to this and make sure Honda commit to making sure people get found jobs as the factory closes.
    You're quite the interventionist.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,010
    edited February 2019
    Dura_Ace said:

    Is it true that the Swindon Honda plant is on the site of a Spitfire factory? Perhaps it's time for the UK to go full on for the nostalgic reconstruction and innovative jam markets.

    https://twitter.com/tradegovuk/status/1040903048892018688

    Most Spitfires were made at Castle Bromwich. Various components for specialist marques like the PRs were made in other parts of the country.
    Hillington at the edge of Glasgow had a good chunk of the Merlin production. I visit it reasonably frequently because the Ducati store has relocated there, buts afaik there's no remnant left, or commemoration even.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    Adonis on Sky News asked about the TIGS. Immediately blames Honda on Brexit. Calls for A50 to be revoked. I'm not sure if he is a one trick pony or he misheard the question....

    or is a politician.

    ("That's not the question you should have asked me, the question you should have asked me is...")
  • Honda aside, today saw the release of another very strong set of jobs numbers, with the economy adding 427,000 full time jobs in the last year, and a significant q-o-q reduction in both unemployment and inactivity.

    Pay growth continues to sit at 3.4%, expanding its lead over inflation slightly to 1.3% - although these things take time to feed into people's wallets in a meaningful way.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    EU nationals working in the UK down 61,000 on a year earlier . Non EU nationals up 130,000.

    So Brits lose their freedom of movement rights to allow more people in from outside the EU from countries that don’t give us freedom of movement .

    Is this what Leavers wanted , more non EU migration !

    Brexit becomes more absurd by the day .
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    edited February 2019

    Mr. Sandpit, yesterday Wolff was making grumpy noises about the impact of a no deal departure on F1 teams, but that seemed a bit weird to me. Given 8/10 teams and all the supply chains have built up around here, surely that wouldn't have an impact?

    Maybe it would, but at first glance it seems peculiar. What d'you think?

    I’ve not found a link to what he actually said, but he’s probably nervous about increased paperwork and potential delays for imported components and people in the event of no deal. It will be the uncertainty that’s causing problems for an organisation that plans for every eventuality to the nth degree.
  • Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    The bigger Brexit issue with Swindon is how those who lose their jobs will find new ones at similar skill and pay levels. Where are the new investments going to come from now that we are leaving the single market?

    No-one mentions companies like McLaren adding over a thousand jobs in the last two years, nor Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Aston Martin, Lotus, TVR, eight out of ten F1 teams, Formula E teams and a whole lot of other car-related manufacturing companies within an hour’s drive of Swindon - all of whom are hiring right now.

    Hopefully the company and the relevant government departments will find ways to place people around the industry. Greg Clark needs to step up to this and make sure Honda commit to making sure people get found jobs as the factory closes.
    Jobs being created don't attract headlines, unless the numbers are huge.
    By contrast redundancies get heavily reported.

    While in reality redundancy levels have been at record low levels.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/redundancies/datasets/redundancieslevelsandratesseasonallyadjustedred01sa
  • Late to this thread so I imagine all the points have already been made but what the heck, let's make them again.

    TIG is not a sustainable position. I don't know whether Mike's right or not with his assertion that "The group they’ve designed has one initial purpose and that was to be a vehicle for them to leave Labour and provide a means for others to follow from the Tories and other parties. This meant that they did not have to have a policy platform."

    On the one hand, being a purely negative reaction against the direction of Labour under Corbyn (and, potentially, the Tories handling of Brexit), has its advantages in that people aren't put off by specific policies. However, they might just as easily (or more easily?) be put off by that same lack of policies: why jump into a vacuum? Either TIG develops policies (in which case, MPs thinking of defecting might once again find themselves out on a limb), or alternatively it doesn't (in which case, what future does it have?).

    My impression is that the ex-Lab MPs still retain sufficient emotional attachment to Labour that they're trying to leave open a door to rejoin. Most are not at the end of their natural political career and would hope to contest the next election. If so, they're badly mistaken. Resigning the whip in this way has burned those bridges and they won't be rebuilt until today's version of Militant is again chased out (which given Hatton's return to Labour this week underscores that the tide is still running against them).

    Therefore, they are going to have to either retire from active politics or fight the next election under a non-Lab flag - which in turn implies either joining an existing party or starting a new one.

    The local elections take place in two and a half months. If the Gang of Seven were to launch a new party today, and appeal to disaffected Labour and other activists to join them, they might have time to make an impact on them but they'll have to move quickly. Similarly, the Newport West by-election offers another opportunity to make an impact in a Labour-held semi-marginal - as might a Peterborough by-election, depending on events there. These are good opportunities scheduled for a time of likely high political drama when the pieces are up in the air and much might be possible.

    By not acting, they are letting chances slip and events shape them.
  • nico67 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nicola Sturgeon: "For me, this is one of the saddest parts of Brexit. The UK government is proclaiming the end of free movement as a victory - instead, it is a self-defeating measure. It removes opportunity from millions of people."

    Exactly although some Brits still haven’t worked out that the end of freedom of movement relates to them . Some still think they’re special and can swan around the EU without a care in the world .
    What is worse, or at least more ironic, is that ending Freedom of Movement is not accompanied by any desire to reduce immigration, which is what most people think it means. Witness non-EU immigration from 2010 while Theresa May was Home Secretary, and just last week we learned Leave had told Indian restaurants that Brexit would make it easier and cheaper to bring in staff from the sub-continent.
  • Mr. Stereotomy, calling half the electorate a basket of deplorables didn't help either...

  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    IanB2 said:

    OllyT said:

    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    At the moment they are lacking a critical mass. The SDP managed because they had Roy, Owen, Shirley and,,,the other one (sorry Bill). The current leadership of the Independents is nothing like that profile. Most of them have spent the last 2-3 years sulking in their tents with minimal media attention.

    This could have been offset by numbers but 7 is at least 35 too small. They need others to sign up, ideally (from their point of view) including some Tories and they need this quickly. At the moment they are in danger of simply disappearing.

    My provisional view is that this is going to be a zephyr in a thimble.

    Polly Toynbee (who must have been a potential recruit) is scathing about them today on much the same grounds, and because their timing risks the Brexit-delaying moves. Unlike Mike I think their policy vacuum is a serious mistake - they aren't offering a banner to rally around, merely saying they're unhappy with Corbyn and Labour. Labour supporters say oh well, goodbye; non-Labour supporters say quite right, sound judgment, but there is no obvious reason to actually join up with them.

    Vince was quite cool about them too, I noticed, and conversely they said at the press conference that they weren't joining the LibDems because they lacked credibility. What we appear to have is as much a centre ground split as a split in the big parties.
    I think you underestimate the desire for something in-between the ERG and The Corbyn Clique
    Yet the Lib Dems and Greens can't fill that void?
    We have an electoral system that pretty much guarantees that unless you are voting Labour/Tory you may as well stay at home. It is not a coincidence that other movements like En Marche, 5 Star, Podemos etc have have only emerged in countries with PR.

    We are stuck with Buggin's turn while the other 27 EU countries have more sophisticated and responsive electoral systems. Of course, as always, they are all wrong and Britain is right.
    Not disagreeing. Although Macron won the presidency which is a single position and hence not PR.
    En March also won the subsequent parliamentary elections
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,752
    nico67 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nicola Sturgeon: "For me, this is one of the saddest parts of Brexit. The UK government is proclaiming the end of free movement as a victory - instead, it is a self-defeating measure. It removes opportunity from millions of people."

    Exactly although some Brits still haven’t worked out that the end of freedom of movement relates to them . Some still think they’re special and can swan around the EU without a care in the world .
    Not to mention Switzerland ...
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    edited February 2019
    Someone suggested that after Brexit the most we could hope for was to become a 1950's theme park in the middle of the Atlantic. I think they were being optimistic
    Sandpit said:

    The bigger Brexit issue with Swindon is how those who lose their jobs will find new ones at similar skill and pay levels. Where are the new investments going to come from now that we are leaving the single market?

    No-one mentions companies like McLaren adding over a thousand jobs in the last two years, nor Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Aston Martin, Lotus, TVR, eight out of ten F1 teams, Formula E teams and a whole lot of other car-related manufacturing companies within an hour’s drive of Swindon - all of whom are hiring right now.

    Hopefully the company and the relevant government departments will find ways to place people around the industry. Greg Clark needs to step up to this and make sure Honda commit to making sure people get found jobs as the factory closes.
    Why build here with our uncertain future when the world's largest market is just a stone's throw away and we're not part of it?
  • nico67 said:

    EU nationals working in the UK down 61,000 on a year earlier . Non EU nationals up 130,000.

    So Brits lose their freedom of movement rights to allow more people in from outside the EU from countries that don’t give us freedom of movement .

    Is this what Leavers wanted , more non EU migration !

    Brexit becomes more absurd by the day .

    The difference between the number of immigrants to the UK and the number of immigrants working is rather startling.

    Makes you wonder who is migrating to the UK and for what purposes.
  • Mr. Stereotomy, to be fair, Clinton would've won, almost certainly, had she not deployed her considerable campaigning resources in an obviously foolish manner.

    Because the result was so close, there are quite a few individual mistakes which if corrected would probably have put her over the line. But equally I'm sure there are lots of mistakes Trump made which prevented him from getting a bigger lead.

    So yes, Hiliary could have won, but that doesn't change the fact that she utterly turned off her potential voters with the bland centrism that was supposed to be an electoral asset, while Trump excited his.
    I don't think bland centrism was her main problem though. Her problem was that she was a dumb strategist, charmlessly phoney, and oozed entitlement. I don't think any of these apply to Baemy.
  • Honda aside, today saw the release of another very strong set of jobs numbers, with the economy adding 427,000 full time jobs in the last year, and a significant q-o-q reduction in both unemployment and inactivity.

    Pay growth continues to sit at 3.4%, expanding its lead over inflation slightly to 1.3% - although these things take time to feed into people's wallets in a meaningful way.

    With real earnings many people are doing very nicely while many are still struggling.

    Its likely providing a boost to both the Conservatives and Labour.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    nico67 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nicola Sturgeon: "For me, this is one of the saddest parts of Brexit. The UK government is proclaiming the end of free movement as a victory - instead, it is a self-defeating measure. It removes opportunity from millions of people."

    Exactly although some Brits still haven’t worked out that the end of freedom of movement relates to them . Some still think they’re special and can swan around the EU without a care in the world .
    What is worse, or at least more ironic, is that ending Freedom of Movement is not accompanied by any desire to reduce immigration, which is what most people think it means. Witness non-EU immigration from 2010 while Theresa May was Home Secretary, and just last week we learned Leave had told Indian restaurants that Brexit would make it easier and cheaper to bring in staff from the sub-continent.
    It’s amazing how quiet Leave campaigners are now on the large increase in non EU nationals coming to the UK.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Dura_Ace said:

    Is it true that the Swindon Honda plant is on the site of a Spitfire factory? Perhaps it's time for the UK to go full on for the nostalgic reconstruction and innovative jam markets.

    https://twitter.com/tradegovuk/status/1040903048892018688

    Most Spitfires were made at Castle Bromwich. Various components for specialist marques like the PRs were made in other parts of the country.
    Hillington at the edge of Glasgow had a good chunk of the Merlin production. I visit it reasonably frequently because the Ducati store has relocated there, buts afaik there's no remnant left, or commemoration even.
    I had a Multistrada 1200 for a while but crashed the fuck out of it near Brest. I've gone back "home" to MV Agusta now.
  • DonTsInferno_DonTsInferno_ Posts: 108
    edited February 2019

    Late to this thread so I imagine all the points have already been made but what the heck, let's make them again.

    TIG is not a sustainable position. I don't know whether Mike's right or not with his assertion that "The group they’ve designed has one initial purpose and that was to be a vehicle for them to leave Labour and provide a means for others to follow from the Tories and other parties. This meant that they did not have to have a policy platform."

    On the one hand, being a purely negative reaction against the direction of Labour under Corbyn (and, potentially, the Tories handling of Brexit), has its advantages in that people aren't put off by specific policies. However, they might just as easily (or more easily?) be put off by that same lack of policies: why jump into a vacuum? Either TIG develops policies (in which case, MPs thinking of defecting might once again find themselves out on a limb), or alternatively it doesn't (in which case, what future does it have?).

    My impression is that the ex-Lab MPs still retain sufficient emotional attachment to Labour that they're trying to leave open a door to rejoin. Most are not at the end of their natural political career and would hope to contest the next election. If so, they're badly mistaken. Resigning the whip in this way has burned those bridges and they won't be rebuilt until today's version of Militant is again chased out (which given Hatton's return to Labour this week underscores that the tide is still running against them).

    Therefore, they are going to have to either retire from active politics or fight the next election under a non-Lab flag - which in turn implies either joining an existing party or starting a new one.

    The local elections take place in two and a half months. If the Gang of Seven were to launch a new party today, and appeal to disaffected Labour and other activists to join them, they might have time to make an impact on them but they'll have to move quickly. Similarly, the Newport West by-election offers another opportunity to make an impact in a Labour-held semi-marginal - as might a Peterborough by-election, depending on events there. These are good opportunities scheduled for a time of likely high political drama when the pieces are up in the air and much might be possible.

    By not acting, they are letting chances slip and events shape them.

    Is it not possible to view the Leave win and the relative success of Corbyn at the last GE as a rejection of the Blairite politics that seem to form the basis of the GO7?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    nico67 said:

    EU nationals working in the UK down 61,000 on a year earlier . Non EU nationals up 130,000.

    So Brits lose their freedom of movement rights to allow more people in from outside the EU from countries that don’t give us freedom of movement .

    Is this what Leavers wanted , more non EU migration !

    Brexit becomes more absurd by the day .

    Hush your mouth. Leavers all say that it is unfair that the EU should be favoured just because they are our closest neighbours. They welcome wholeheartedly as many immigrants as possible from all the non-EU nations.
  • Mr. Sandpit, aye, but aren't the clear majority of people and things related to F1 located in the UK anyway?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    Late to this thread so I imagine all the points have already been made but what the heck, let's make them again.

    TIG is not a sustainable position. I don't know whether Mike's right or not with his assertion that "The group they’ve designed has one initial purpose and that was to be a vehicle for them to leave Labour and provide a means for others to follow from the Tories and other parties. This meant that they did not have to have a policy platform."

    On the one hand, being a purely negative reaction against the direction of Labour under Corbyn (and, potentially, the Tories handling of Brexit), has its advantages in that people aren't put off by specific policies. However, they might just as easily (or more easily?) be put off by that same lack of policies: why jump into a vacuum? Either TIG develops policies (in which case, MPs thinking of defecting might once again find themselves out on a limb), or alternatively it doesn't (in which case, what future does it have?).

    My impression is that the ex-Lab MPs still retain sufficient emotional attachment to Labour that they're trying to leave open a door to rejoin. Most are not at the end of their natural political career and would hope to contest the next election. If so, they're badly mistaken. Resigning the whip in this way has burned those bridges and they won't be rebuilt until today's version of Militant is again chased out (which given Hatton's return to Labour this week underscores that the tide is still running against them).

    Therefore, they are going to have to either retire from active politics or fight the next election under a non-Lab flag - which in turn implies either joining an existing party or starting a new one.

    The local elections take place in two and a half months. If the Gang of Seven were to launch a new party today, and appeal to disaffected Labour and other activists to join them, they might have time to make an impact on them but they'll have to move quickly. Similarly, the Newport West by-election offers another opportunity to make an impact in a Labour-held semi-marginal - as might a Peterborough by-election, depending on events there. These are good opportunities scheduled for a time of likely high political drama when the pieces are up in the air and much might be possible.

    By not acting, they are letting chances slip and events shape them.

    At the moment its just a shell. It hangs on whether or not the next batch of potential recruits, from both parties, makes the leap.
  • felix said:

    It's pretty simple: if Labour was the broad church it used to be fools like Richard Burgon and Barry Gardiner would not be on the front bench and the likes of Cooper, Benn, Nandy and Lammy would be in the shadow cabinet.

    That's correct. Interestingly Mcdonnell much more conciliatory today suggesting they're rattled. The Hatton thing however is grotesque and shows the true direction of travel.
    Surely Hatton's readmission shows the party is a broad church #PropertyDevelopersForLabour
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    The bigger Brexit issue with Swindon is how those who lose their jobs will find new ones at similar skill and pay levels. Where are the new investments going to come from now that we are leaving the single market?

    No-one mentions companies like McLaren adding over a thousand jobs in the last two years, nor Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Aston Martin, Lotus, TVR, eight out of ten F1 teams, Formula E teams and a whole lot of other car-related manufacturing companies within an hour’s drive of Swindon - all of whom are hiring right now.

    Hopefully the company and the relevant government departments will find ways to place people around the industry. Greg Clark needs to step up to this and make sure Honda commit to making sure people get found jobs as the factory closes.
    Jobs being created don't attract headlines, unless the numbers are huge.
    Exactly. Doesn’t mean they’re not happening though.

    This isn’t a case of whole industries shutting down, it’s a case of some companies losing jobs and other companies adding them.
  • Like David Herdson, I'm a bit late to the topic on here, but for what it's worth, my take is almost the complete opposite of Mike's. The Independent Seven have certainly made headlines... but they've moved too soon.
    My blog:
    https://www.lifestuff.xyz/blog/jumping-the-gun
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,816
    edited February 2019

    Mr. Sandpit, yesterday Wolff was making grumpy noises about the impact of a no deal departure on F1 teams, but that seemed a bit weird to me. Given 8/10 teams and all the supply chains have built up around here, surely that wouldn't have an impact?

    Maybe it would, but at first glance it seems peculiar. What d'you think?

    It would seem one of the less obvious ones. The obvious thing that springs to mind is the increase in bureaucracy and the very tight timings of moving all the equipment for Grand Prix in EU countries. The logistics anyway for this must be very fine tuned regardless of location. I have some bitter experience of trying to get something into a country urgently and it being held up almost to the point where it would have been pointless (eg arriving the day after the race!)
  • SunnyJimSunnyJim Posts: 1,106
    edited February 2019
    I don't believe anybody really believes Angela Smith's remarks were anything other than a blundering attempt to follow on from the previous panelists unusual use of language regarding skin colour.

    That said, I get why Corbynista's have flogged it for all it is worth given the day's events.

    Far more importantly, has Soubry gone yet?
  • Sandpit said:

    Is it true that the Swindon Honda plant is on the site of a Spitfire factory?

    Yes.

    It's all getting very retro:

    https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/1097579703890821120
    Wonder how long it'll be till they're having nostalgathons for the Airbus A380?
    I'll miss it when its gone - much prefer it to the 350 or 787 in the cheap seats.....bl££dy accountants.....Qatar will be retiring theirs when they get to 10 years old and while Emirates will likely keep them flying a while longer other airlines like SQ may only have them in their fleets for another decade or so. The first one I flew on has already been broken up.
    Emirates have already said that the latest orders will be replacement aircraft for older A380s. The first few dozen they made were horrendously overweight, limited in passenger numbers, cargo and range as a result.
    The first SQ ones were overweight - and late - as well - which is why the owners (SQ leased them) haven't been able to find buyers. They've retired their first four - the first two of which have been dismantled for spares. Malaysian has withdrawn their A380s from commercial service too. Hamburg & Toulouse didn't cover themselves in glory in the A380 start up.
  • Adonis on Sky News asked about the TIGS. Immediately blames Honda on Brexit. Calls for A50 to be revoked. I'm not sure if he is a one trick pony or he misheard the question....

    I listened to that discussion and his immediate connection to Nissan and Honda being brexit's fault just confirms his manic obsession to stop brexit. His call for a second referendum and to revoke A50 just affirmed he is so blind to his cause he has nothing useful to contribute to any other political subject

    He seems to be very tortured

  • glwglw Posts: 9,914
    IanB2 said:

    glw said:

    It's pretty simple: if Labour was the broad church it used to be fools like Richard Burgon and Barry Gardiner would not be on the front bench and the likes of Cooper, Benn, Nandy and Lammy would be in the shadow cabinet.

    Exactly right, Corbyn's Labour values loyalty over competence. In fact being a blithering idiot is not a bar to high office if you unconditionally support the leader.
    Grayling.
    Yes the Tories have similar traits, if not to quite the degree of Corbyn's Labour.
  • brendan16 said:

    OK, so I've just come home from a holiday in India to some really exciting Party news. Would be interesting to see how many more Labour MPs jump ship in the next few days.

    Will Wes Streeting join Mike Gapes in the Tiggers and make Ilford a one party Tigger state?

    Perhaps they will have to rename Redbridge - as 'not so Red bridge'?

    PS Hope you had a nice holiday!
    Thanks!

    Ilford South is pretty much as safe Labour as you can get - mum and I were debating with our cab driver coming back from Heathrow how much of a personal vote Gapes has. We came to the conclusion - not much!

    Ilford North until as recently as 2015 had a Tory MP, Lee Scott. But at GE2015 Wes Streeting won it, and at GE2017 his majority sky-rocketed, making the seat pretty safe.
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006
    SunnyJim said:

    I don't believe anybody really believes Angela Smith's remarks were anything other than a blundering attempt to follow on from the previous panelists unusual use of language regarding skin colour.

    That said, I get why Corbynista's have flogged it for all it is worth given the day's events.

    Far more importantly, has Soubry gone yet?

    It’s a reminder that much (not all) race based outrage is just taking down of people you don’t like. And why is literally a communist woman who represents a literally #fakenews website continuesly on tv?
  • Honda aside, today saw the release of another very strong set of jobs numbers, with the economy adding 427,000 full time jobs in the last year, and a significant q-o-q reduction in both unemployment and inactivity.

    Pay growth continues to sit at 3.4%, expanding its lead over inflation slightly to 1.3% - although these things take time to feed into people's wallets in a meaningful way.

    Latest inflation rate was 1.8% so the lead is 1.6%
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,500
    kjh said:

    Mr. Sandpit, yesterday Wolff was making grumpy noises about the impact of a no deal departure on F1 teams, but that seemed a bit weird to me. Given 8/10 teams and all the supply chains have built up around here, surely that wouldn't have an impact?

    Maybe it would, but at first glance it seems peculiar. What d'you think?

    It would seem one of the less obvious ones. The obvious thing that springs to mind is the increase in bureaucracy and the very tight timings of moving all the equipment for Grand Prix in EU countries. The logistics anyway for this must be very fine tuned. I have some bitter experience of trying to get something into a country urgently and it being held up almost to the point where it would have been pointless (eg arriving the day after the race!)
    I have family members who used to be involved in F1 logistics and they are indeed fine-tuned. It was also necessary for quite long discussions with very senior technical people for one race host* would allow their technology in without in-country testing and validation.
    *Not an EU country.
  • Nigelb said:

    Speaking of impossible promises, KLOBUCHAR just did a town hall on CNN and refused to take part in the Democratic bidding war. Check out the questioner's sad face at the end:
    https://twitter.com/KFILE/status/1097707758521143296

    I'm not sure how "No we can't" is going to fly as a political message, but we'll see.
    She was not entirely inspiring...

    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/02/18/amy-klobuchar-cnn-town-hall-1173790
    Klobuchar again emphasized that she comes from a “different place” than many of her Democratic primary counterparts when explaining that she always thinks of her “Uncle Dick in the deer stand” when she considers gun control legislation...
    The weird thing about this is that if you watch the segment it's extremely strong: She does the folksy midwest deer hunter thing then goes very emotionally hard on shooting victims, and works in a brutal attack on Trump for agreeing to do something then wimping out against the NRA. I think it's the most effective I've seen her. But the result in the print media is a frame of "Other Dems want to do gun control, Klobuchar is thinking about deer hunters", which is utterly disastrous for a Dem primary.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    matt said:

    Sandpit said:

    Honda announcement:

    https://global.honda/newsroom/news/2019/c190219beng.html

    19 February, 2019 - Honda has today announced it will restructure its global manufacturing network. This restructure comes as Honda accelerates its commitment to electrified cars, in response to the unprecedented changes in the global automotive industry. The significant challenges of electrification will see Honda revise its global manufacturing operations, and focus activity in regions where it expects to have high production volumes.

    No mention of the 'B' word.....

    Interesting statement. As we discussed on here yesterday, the car industry globally is in a massive state of flux at the moment - except for at the top end of luxury, performance and motorsport, which are a massive British industry success story.

    Hopefully Honda will work with employees and government to minimise the impact on those affected by this closure.

    What's immediately clear though, is that a certain element of the #FPBE crowd, particularly on Twitter, are overjoyed at and celebrating anyone who announces job losses. Not a good look.
    See “Roger” here for that attitude in action.

    I have very limited sympahy for people who wanted to keep foreigners out seeing their prejudice backfiring.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Is it true that the Swindon Honda plant is on the site of a Spitfire factory? Perhaps it's time for the UK to go full on for the nostalgic reconstruction and innovative jam markets.

    https://twitter.com/tradegovuk/status/1040903048892018688

    Most Spitfires were made at Castle Bromwich. Various components for specialist marques like the PRs were made in other parts of the country.
    Hillington at the edge of Glasgow had a good chunk of the Merlin production. I visit it reasonably frequently because the Ducati store has relocated there, buts afaik there's no remnant left, or commemoration even.
    I had a Multistrada 1200 for a while but crashed the fuck out of it near Brest. I've gone back "home" to MV Agusta now.
    "Tonnerre de Brest!"
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,279
    edited February 2019

    Mr. Sandpit, yesterday Wolff was making grumpy noises about the impact of a no deal departure on F1 teams, but that seemed a bit weird to me. Given 8/10 teams and all the supply chains have built up around here, surely that wouldn't have an impact?

    Maybe it would, but at first glance it seems peculiar. What d'you think?

    He was complaining it would hand Ferrari a large advantage.

    Which seems credible.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Is it true that the Swindon Honda plant is on the site of a Spitfire factory? Perhaps it's time for the UK to go full on for the nostalgic reconstruction and innovative jam markets.

    https://twitter.com/tradegovuk/status/1040903048892018688

    Most Spitfires were made at Castle Bromwich. Various components for specialist marques like the PRs were made in other parts of the country.
    Hillington at the edge of Glasgow had a good chunk of the Merlin production. I visit it reasonably frequently because the Ducati store has relocated there, buts afaik there's no remnant left, or commemoration even.
    I had a Multistrada 1200 for a while but crashed the fuck out of it near Brest. I've gone back "home" to MV Agusta now.
    Cool, F4 or something less focused?
    My joints are getting a bit creaky for sports bikes, and I've reached that age where one looks yearningly at spoked wheels and open face helmets.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    brendan16 said:

    OK, so I've just come home from a holiday in India to some really exciting Party news. Would be interesting to see how many more Labour MPs jump ship in the next few days.

    Will Wes Streeting join Mike Gapes in the Tiggers and make Ilford a one party Tigger state?

    Perhaps they will have to rename Redbridge - as 'not so Red bridge'?

    PS Hope you had a nice holiday!
    Thanks!

    Ilford South is pretty much as safe Labour as you can get - mum and I were debating with our cab driver coming back from Heathrow how much of a personal vote Gapes has. We came to the conclusion - not much!

    Ilford North until as recently as 2015 had a Tory MP, Lee Scott. But at GE2015 Wes Streeting won it, and at GE2017 his majority sky-rocketed, making the seat pretty safe.
    Significant true personal votes are rare. I think Norman Lamb has one.
This discussion has been closed.