If (say) 90 MPs or fewer are against May, how stupid and incompetent does this make the ERGers look? They had the farce of the repeated claims about 48 letters being in over the last month, and when they finally do get them, they can't even put the knife in well.
As I said a while back: they are all tactics and no strategy.
That would clearly be the best result. The question then is whether May is bold and ruthless enough to follow through and crush her saboteurs.
Assuming May wins, today will have solved nothing at all. The same problems exist tomorrow, for both the Conservative Party and the country.
What has got worse is that the EU knows it needs to offer her nothing - because no-one else is now going to come in to re-negotiate with them. And May can't be bounced out, however crap her performance with them.
Corbyn now knows he will face May if he can get a VONC through - and get to face her again in any General Election he can cause. Quite an incentive now....
Well quite. A nice little detour. But the deal still doesn’t have a majority. Erg just need to wait to win. Whereas May has to offer Labour something.
Tick.
Tock.
I think that's right - she has to offer Labour something. Unfortunately, I am not sure she gets that.
Or go for a referendum. Leave with the May Deal or Remain.
You may as well serve the Tory party it's last rites with that kind of choice presented to the public.
The Tories are going to take a hit anyway. Allowing Remain on the ballot in a referendum might actually save the Tories in the long-run. You might not like it but that is tough luck! Go back to UKIP and rant about Europe to your hearts content.
You need remain on the ballot to get Labour's support.
Assuming May wins, today will have solved nothing at all. The same problems exist tomorrow, for both the Conservative Party and the country.
What has got worse is that the EU knows it needs to offer her nothing - because no-one else is now going to come in to re-negotiate with them. And May can't be bounced out, however crap her performance with them.
Corbyn now knows he will face May if he can get a VONC through - and get to face her again in any General Election he can cause. Quite an incentive now....
Well quite. A nice little detour. But the deal still doesn’t have a majority. Erg just need to wait to win. Whereas May has to offer Labour something.
Tick.
Tock.
I think that's right - she has to offer Labour something. Unfortunately, I am not sure she gets that.
Or go for a referendum. Leave with the May Deal or Remain.
You may as well serve the Tory party it's last rites with that kind of choice presented to the public.
That's an added bonus then!
It's also why that will never be the choice. I don't like May very much but she's not completely stupid.
Do you think she's stupid enough to let the country accidentally slip into No Deal Brexit? Because that might be the alternative to a 2nd referendum.
The CJEU have already done that, unfortunately. They've blocked off the one hope of avoiding it - that Labour's backbenches would see this as a better option than a crashout.
And as nobody will dare withdraw a50 and nobody will vote through the deal we are all screwed.
If (say) 90 MPs or fewer are against May, how stupid and incompetent does this make the ERGers look? They had the farce of the repeated claims about 48 letters being in over the last month, and when they finally do get them, they can't even put the knife in well.
As I said a while back: they are all tactics and no strategy.
That would clearly be the best result. The question then is whether May is bold and ruthless enough to follow through and crush her saboteurs.
Assuming May wins, today will have solved nothing at all. The same problems exist tomorrow, for both the Conservative Party and the country.
What has got worse is that the EU knows it needs to offer her nothing - because no-one else is now going to come in to re-negotiate with them. And May can't be bounced out, however crap her performance with them.
Corbyn now knows he will face May if he can get a VONC through - and get to face her again in any General Election he can cause. Quite an incentive now....
Well quite. A nice little detour. But the deal still doesn’t have a majority. Erg just need to wait to win. Whereas May has to offer Labour something.
Tick.
Tock.
I think that's right - she has to offer Labour something. Unfortunately, I am not sure she gets that.
Or go for a referendum. Leave with the May Deal or Remain.
You may as well serve the Tory party it's last rites with that kind of choice presented to the public.
Your party is dying in front of you. This is - even though you won't believe me - one chance to appeal to voters beyond the core vote. And to get rid of the current parasites in your party who are killing it - like honey fungus which looks superficially appealing but over time kills the tree to which it attaches itself to.
If (say) 90 MPs or fewer are against May, how stupid and incompetent does this make the ERGers look? They had the farce of the repeated claims about 48 letters being in over the last month, and when they finally do get them, they can't even put the knife in well.
As I said a while back: they are all tactics and no strategy.
Win or lose they had to put in letters if they disagree so fundamentally with the leader of their party. Good on them for that.
Assuming May wins, today will have solved nothing at all. The same problems exist tomorrow, for both the Conservative Party and the country.
What has got worse is that the EU knows it needs to offer her nothing - because no-one else is now going to come in to re-negotiate with them. And May can't be bounced out, however crap her performance with them.
Corbyn now knows he will face May if he can get a VONC through - and get to face her again in any General Election he can cause. Quite an incentive now....
Well quite. A nice little detour. But the deal still doesn’t have a majority. Erg just need to wait to win. Whereas May has to offer Labour something.
Tick.
Tock.
I think that's right - she has to offer Labour something. Unfortunately, I am not sure she gets that.
Or go for a referendum. Leave with the May Deal or Remain.
You may as well serve the Tory party it's last rites with that kind of choice presented to the public.
The Tories are going to take a hit anyway. Allowing Remain on the ballot in a referendum might actually save the Tories in the long-run. You might not like it but that is tough luck! Go back to UKIP and rant about Europe to your hearts content.
You need remain on the ballot to get Labour's support.
If (say) 90 MPs or fewer are against May, how stupid and incompetent does this make the ERGers look? They had the farce of the repeated claims about 48 letters being in over the last month, and when they finally do get them, they can't even put the knife in well.
As I said a while back: they are all tactics and no strategy.
That would clearly be the best result. The question then is whether May is bold and ruthless enough to follow through and crush her saboteurs.
But who are the saboteurs? Seems everyone including May has been saboteur at some point. It's hard for us sans cullottes to keep up.
Assuming May wins, today will have solved nothing at all. The same problems exist tomorrow, for both the Conservative Party and the country.
What has got worse is that the EU knows it needs to offer her nothing - because no-one else is now going to come in to re-negotiate with them. And May can't be bounced out, however crap her performance with them.
Corbyn now knows he will face May if he can get a VONC through - and get to face her again in any General Election he can cause. Quite an incentive now....
Well quite. A nice little detour. But the deal still doesn’t have a majority. Erg just need to wait to win. Whereas May has to offer Labour something.
Tick.
Tock.
I think that's right - she has to offer Labour something. Unfortunately, I am not sure she gets that.
Or go for a referendum. Leave with the May Deal or Remain.
You may as well serve the Tory party it's last rites with that kind of choice presented to the public.
That's an added bonus then!
It's also why that will never be the choice. I don't like May very much but she's not completely stupid.
It would be nice if the national interest was occasionally prioritised versus the internal politics of the conservative party. We need an outcome and clarity.
May or no May I don't think an outcome or clarity were likely. This is an internal Tory fight, and one we can scarcely afford the time for, but who they pick as leader seems largely irrelevant to the national interest unless it is Rees Mogg.
Assuming May wins, today will have solved nothing at all. The same problems exist tomorrow, for both the Conservative Party and the country.
What has got worse is that the EU knows it needs to offer her nothing - because no-one else is now going to come in to re-negotiate with them. And May can't be bounced out, however crap her performance with them.
Corbyn now knows he will face May if he can get a VONC through - and get to face her again in any General Election he can cause. Quite an incentive now....
Well quite. A nice little detour. But the deal still doesn’t have a majority. Erg just need to wait to win. Whereas May has to offer Labour something.
Tick.
Tock.
I think that's right - she has to offer Labour something. Unfortunately, I am not sure she gets that.
Or go for a referendum. Leave with the May Deal or Remain.
You may as well serve the Tory party it's last rites with that kind of choice presented to the public.
The Tories are going to take a hit anyway. Allowing Remain on the ballot in a referendum might actually save the Tories in the long-run. You might not like it but that is tough luck! Go back to UKIP and rant about Europe to your hearts content.
You need remain on the ballot to get Labour's support.
Assuming May wins, today will have solved nothing at all. The same problems exist tomorrow, for both the Conservative Party and the country.
What has got worse is that the EU knows it needs to offer her nothing - because no-one else is now going to come in to re-negotiate with them. And May can't be bounced out, however crap her performance with them.
Corbyn now knows he will face May if he can get a VONC through - and get to face her again in any General Election he can cause. Quite an incentive now....
Well quite. A nice little detour. But the deal still doesn’t have a majority. Erg just need to wait to win. Whereas May has to offer Labour something.
Tick.
Tock.
I think that's right - she has to offer Labour something. Unfortunately, I am not sure she gets that.
Or go for a referendum. Leave with the May Deal or Remain.
You may as well serve the Tory party it's last rites with that kind of choice presented to the public.
That's an added bonus then!
It's also why that will never be the choice. I don't like May very much but she's not completely stupid.
Do you think she's stupid enough to let the country accidentally slip into No Deal Brexit? Because that might be the alternative to a 2nd referendum.
The CJEU have already done that, unfortunately. They've blocked off the one hope of avoiding it - that Labour's backbenches would see this as a better option than a crashout.
And as nobody will dare withdraw a50 and nobody will vote through the deal we are all screwed.
May will withdraw A50 if we get close to crash out imo. The cabinet have obviously been spooked by the secret briefings they have had on No Deal consequences.
Assuming May wins, today will have solved nothing at all. The same problems exist tomorrow, for both the Conservative Party and the country.
What has got worse is that the EU knows it needs to offer her nothing - because no-one else is now going to come in to re-negotiate with them. And May can't be bounced out, however crap her performance with them.
Corbyn now knows he will face May if he can get a VONC through - and get to face her again in any General Election he can cause. Quite an incentive now....
Well quite. A nice little detour. But the deal still doesn’t have a majority. Erg just need to wait to win. Whereas May has to offer Labour something.
Tick.
Tock.
I think that's right - she has to offer Labour something. Unfortunately, I am not sure she gets that.
Or go for a referendum. Leave with the May Deal or Remain.
You may as well serve the Tory party it's last rites with that kind of choice presented to the public.
Your party is dying in front of you. This is - even though you won't believe me - one chance to appeal to voters beyond the core vote. And to get rid of the current parasites in your party who are killing it - like honey fungus which looks superficially appealing but over time kills the tree to which it attaches itself to.
Most people (including a lot of conservative voters) are sick to the back teeth with Brexit.
Getting this resolved wins brownie points, not an internal dialogue that the electorate are frankly bewildered by, with the preference for leaving seeming to shrink week by week now in the polls.
Assuming May wins, today will have solved nothing at all. The same problems exist tomorrow, for both the Conservative Party and the country.
What has got worse is that the EU knows it needs to offer her nothing - because no-one else is now going to come in to re-negotiate with them. And May can't be bounced out, however crap her performance with them.
Corbyn now knows he will face May if he can get a VONC through - and get to face her again in any General Election he can cause. Quite an incentive now....
Well quite. A nice little detour. But the deal still doesn’t have a majority. Erg just need to wait to win. Whereas May has to offer Labour something.
Tick.
Tock.
I think that's right - she has to offer Labour something. Unfortunately, I am not sure she gets that.
Or go for a referendum. Leave with the May Deal or Remain.
You may as well serve the Tory party it's last rites with that kind of choice presented to the public.
Your party is dying in front of you. This is - even though you won't believe me - one chance to appeal to voters beyond the core vote. And to get rid of the current parasites in your party who are killing it - like honey fungus which looks superficially appealing but over time kills the tree to which it attaches itself to.
Assuming May wins, today will have solved nothing at all. The same problems exist tomorrow, for both the Conservative Party and the country.
What has got worse is that the EU knows it needs to offer her nothing - because no-one else is now going to come in to re-negotiate with them. And May can't be bounced out, however crap her performance with them.
Corbyn now knows he will face May if he can get a VONC through - and get to face her again in any General Election he can cause. Quite an incentive now....
Well quite. A nice little detour. But the deal still doesn’t have a majority. Erg just need to wait to win. Whereas May has to offer Labour something.
Tick.
Tock.
I think that's right - she has to offer Labour something. Unfortunately, I am not sure she gets that.
Or go for a referendum. Leave with the May Deal or Remain.
You may as well serve the Tory party it's last rites with that kind of choice presented to the public.
The Tories are going to take a hit anyway. Allowing Remain on the ballot in a referendum might actually save the Tories in the long-run. You might not like it but that is tough luck! Go back to UKIP and rant about Europe to your hearts content.
Not sure why you think telling the people "you got it wrong, vote again" would save the Tories.
If (say) 90 MPs or fewer are against May, how stupid and incompetent does this make the ERGers look? They had the farce of the repeated claims about 48 letters being in over the last month, and when they finally do get them, they can't even put the knife in well.
As I said a while back: they are all tactics and no strategy.
That would clearly be the best result. The question then is whether May is bold and ruthless enough to follow through and crush her saboteurs.
But who are the saboteurs? Seems everyone including May has been saboteur at some point. It's hard for us sans cullottes to keep up.
Assuming May wins, today will have solved nothing at all. The same problems exist tomorrow, for both the Conservative Party and the country.
What has got worse is that the EU knows it needs to offer her nothing - because no-one else is now going to come in to re-negotiate with them. And May can't be bounced out, however crap her performance with them.
Corbyn now knows he will face May if he can get a VONC through - and get to face her again in any General Election he can cause. Quite an incentive now....
Well quite. A nice little detour. But the deal still doesn’t have a majority. Erg just need to wait to win. Whereas May has to offer Labour something.
Tick.
Tock.
I think that's right - she has to offer Labour something. Unfortunately, I am not sure she gets that.
Or go for a referendum. Leave with the May Deal or Remain.
You may as well serve the Tory party it's last rites with that kind of choice presented to the public.
The Tories are going to take a hit anyway. Allowing Remain on the ballot in a referendum might actually save the Tories in the long-run. You might not like it but that is tough luck! Go back to UKIP and rant about Europe to your hearts content.
Bullshit. 70% of our voters are leavers, 50% are no dealers. There aren't nearly enough votes in the centre to available to replace the ones we'd lose by putting remain back on the agenda. We'd end up as a rump if a party like the lib dems, Corbyn and the hard left would get 10 years unopposed while the right regrouped under a new banner. It would be an unmitigated disaster.
The price of winning this vote has been to confirm that she is standing down before the next election. She has therefore offered herself up as a lame duck as the price of this vote.
Rather confirming the point of those who put in the letters.
Assuming May wins, today will have solved nothing at all. The same problems exist tomorrow, for both the Conservative Party and the country.
What has got worse is that the EU knows it needs to offer her nothing - because no-one else is now going to come in to re-negotiate with them. And May can't be bounced out, however crap her performance with them.
Corbyn now knows he will face May if he can get a VONC through - and get to face her again in any General Election he can cause. Quite an incentive now....
Well quite. A nice little detour. But the deal still doesn’t have a majority. Erg just need to wait to win. Whereas May has to offer Labour something.
Tick.
Tock.
I think that's right - she has to offer Labour something. Unfortunately, I am not sure she gets that.
Or go for a referendum. Leave with the May Deal or Remain.
You may as well serve the Tory party it's last rites with that kind of choice presented to the public.
The Tories are going to take a hit anyway. Allowing Remain on the ballot in a referendum might actually save the Tories in the long-run. You might not like it but that is tough luck! Go back to UKIP and rant about Europe to your hearts content.
Not sure why you think telling the people "you got it wrong, vote again" would save the Tories.
It's clearly not saying that.
She has tried her best to leave via a real and parliament won't let her.
Only resolution to above is to ask the people. Don't think it's that complex.
Assuming May wins, today will have solved nothing at all. The same problems exist tomorrow, for both the Conservative Party and the country.
What has got worse is that the EU knows it needs to offer her nothing - because no-one else is now going to come in to re-negotiate with them. And May can't be bounced out, however crap her performance with them.
Corbyn now knows he will face May if he can get a VONC through - and get to face her again in any General Election he can cause. Quite an incentive now....
Well quite. A nice little detour. But the deal still doesn’t have a majority. Erg just need to wait to win. Whereas May has to offer Labour something.
Tick.
Tock.
I think that's right - she has to offer Labour something. Unfortunately, I am not sure she gets that.
Or go for a referendum. Leave with the May Deal or Remain.
You may as well serve the Tory party it's last rites with that kind of choice presented to the public.
The Tories are going to take a hit anyway. Allowing Remain on the ballot in a referendum might actually save the Tories in the long-run. You might not like it but that is tough luck! Go back to UKIP and rant about Europe to your hearts content.
Bullshit. 70% of our voters are leavers, 50% are no dealers. There aren't nearly enough votes in the centre to available to replace the ones we'd lose by putting remain back on the agenda. We'd end up as a rump if a party like the lib dems, Corbyn and the hard left would get 10 years unopposed while the right regrouped under a new banner. It would be an unmitigated disaster.
A perfect description of the fate that awaits you if they try to implement no deal.
Assuming May wins, today will have solved nothing at all. The same problems exist tomorrow, for both the Conservative Party and the country.
What has got worse is that the EU knows it needs to offer her nothing - because no-one else is now going to come in to re-negotiate with them. And May can't be bounced out, however crap her performance with them.
Corbyn now knows he will face May if he can get a VONC through - and get to face her again in any General Election he can cause. Quite an incentive now....
Well quite. A nice little detour. But the deal still doesn’t have a majority. Erg just need to wait to win. Whereas May has to offer Labour something.
Tick.
Tock.
I think that's right - she has to offer Labour something. Unfortunately, I am not sure she gets that.
Or go for a referendum. Leave with the May Deal or Remain.
You may as well serve the Tory party it's last rites with that kind of choice presented to the public.
That's an added bonus then!
It's also why that will never be the choice. I don't like May very much but she's not completely stupid.
Do you think she's stupid enough to let the country accidentally slip into No Deal Brexit? Because that might be the alternative to a 2nd referendum.
The CJEU have already done that, unfortunately. They've blocked off the one hope of avoiding it - that Labour's backbenches would see this as a better option than a crashout.
And as nobody will dare withdraw a50 and nobody will vote through the deal we are all screwed.
May will withdraw A50 if we get close to crash out imo. The cabinet have obviously been spooked by the secret briefings they have had on No Deal consequences.
She can't. It would require at the very least a vote in the Commons, and she doesn't have the numbers.
We are left with the default, because nobody can agree an alternative pathway. And no deal is the default.
The price of winning this vote has been to confirm that she is standing down before the next election. She has therefore offered herself up as a lame duck as the price of this vote.
Rather confirming the point of those who put in the letters.
In what way? Were there really that many people who thought she was going to last beyond Brexit day, assuming we even get there?
May will withdraw A50 if we get close to crash out imo. The cabinet have obviously been spooked by the secret briefings they have had on No Deal consequences.
How can we 'crash out' of anything when we know in advance it's happening? The concept itself is ludicrous. We crashed out of the ERM. The whole concept of crashing out is that it happens as a shock. Crashing out of something by appointment is actually admitting that there are issues and that the policy is to fail to prepare for them.
Assuming May wins, today will have solved nothing at all. The same problems exist tomorrow, for both the Conservative Party and the country.
What has got worse is that the EU knows it needs to offer her nothing - because no-one else is now going to come in to re-negotiate with them. And May can't be bounced out, however crap her performance with them.
Corbyn now knows he will face May if he can get a VONC through - and get to face her again in any General Election he can cause. Quite an incentive now....
Well quite. A nice little detour. But the deal still doesn’t have a majority. Erg just need to wait to win. Whereas May has to offer Labour something.
Tick.
Tock.
I think that's right - she has to offer Labour something. Unfortunately, I am not sure she gets that.
Or go for a referendum. Leave with the May Deal or Remain.
You may as well serve the Tory party it's last rites with that kind of choice presented to the public.
The Tories are going to take a hit anyway. Allowing Remain on the ballot in a referendum might actually save the Tories in the long-run. You might not like it but that is tough luck! Go back to UKIP and rant about Europe to your hearts content.
Bullshit. 70% of our voters are leavers, 50% are no dealers. There aren't nearly enough votes in the centre to available to replace the ones we'd lose by putting remain back on the agenda. We'd end up as a rump if a party like the lib dems, Corbyn and the hard left would get 10 years unopposed while the right regrouped under a new banner. It would be an unmitigated disaster.
or you revoke A50 (as that keeps the DUP onside) and push to stay in power to 2022 hoping that something happens to Labour.
It's not a brilliant plan but its better than most of the others...
Assuming May wins, today will have solved nothing at all. The same problems exist tomorrow, for both the Conservative Party and the country.
What has got worse is that the EU knows it needs to offer her nothing - because no-one else is now going to come in to re-negotiate with them. And May can't be bounced out, however crap her performance with them.
Corbyn now knows he will face May if he can get a VONC through - and get to face her again in any General Election he can cause. Quite an incentive now....
Well quite. A nice little detour. But the deal still doesn’t have a majority. Erg just need to wait to win. Whereas May has to offer Labour something.
Tick.
Tock.
I think that's right - she has to offer Labour something. Unfortunately, I am not sure she gets that.
Or go for a referendum. Leave with the May Deal or Remain.
You may as well serve the Tory party it's last rites with that kind of choice presented to the public.
The Tories are going to take a hit anyway. Allowing Remain on the ballot in a referendum might actually save the Tories in the long-run. You might not like it but that is tough luck! Go back to UKIP and rant about Europe to your hearts content.
Bullshit. 70% of our voters are leavers, 50% are no dealers. There aren't nearly enough votes in the centre to available to replace the ones we'd lose by putting remain back on the agenda. We'd end up as a rump if a party like the lib dems, Corbyn and the hard left would get 10 years unopposed while the right regrouped under a new banner. It would be an unmitigated disaster.
You seem to have no idea how many voters you are losing, who are - or could be - natural conservatives, by your current shenanigans. And it is those shenanigans that are making a Corbyn government ever more likely.
The price of winning this vote has been to confirm that she is standing down before the next election. She has therefore offered herself up as a lame duck as the price of this vote.
Rather confirming the point of those who put in the letters.
In what way? Were there really that many people who thought she was going to last beyond Brexit day, assuming we even get there?
She confirmed that she wanted to lead them into 2022, but has had to concede that is a pipe dream.
If (say) 90 MPs or fewer are against May, how stupid and incompetent does this make the ERGers look? They had the farce of the repeated claims about 48 letters being in over the last month, and when they finally do get them, they can't even put the knife in well.
As I said a while back: they are all tactics and no strategy.
Win or lose they had to put in letters if they disagree so fundamentally with the leader of their party. Good on them for that.
One could argue that at least the hotter kind of Brexiteers are bothering to vote for what they believe in, even if they do end up being outnumbered.
Whereas the hundreds of Europhiles and pragmatists who probably constitute a good majority in Parliament - and who view Brexit with disdain or outright horror - are content to make vacuous speeches or to remain silent, rather than seize control of this process and stop it in its tracks.
One can dispute the positioning of both the ERG wing and the Prime Minister, but at least it is possible to construct a reasonable argument to the effect that each is acting in what they believe to be the national interest. Whereas the ditherers are either moaning, wetting themselves, or both.
And one fundamental fact persists: if the majority in Parliament refuses to work together towards any agreed outcome, then Hard Brexit happens by default on March 29th next year.
"Jenkin: She will have my firm support. Just not on the Deal"
In office but not in power...
Quite what the point of her making that distinction is I have no bloody clue. Even now new dealers and no dealers won't switch, nor remainers like JoJo.
"Jenkin: She will have my firm support. Just not on the Deal"
In office but not in power...
And this is the key point. Win or lose May still won't be able to get concessions from Yerp or a vote through the Commons. An entertaining aside but doesn't really change anything.
Assuming May wins, today will have solved nothing at all. The same problems exist tomorrow, for both the Conservative Party and the country.
What has got worse is that the EU knows it needs to offer her nothing - because no-one else is now going to come in to re-negotiate with them. And May can't be bounced out, however crap her performance with them.
Corbyn now knows he will face May if he can get a VONC through - and get to face her again in any General Election he can cause. Quite an incentive now....
Well quite. A nice little detour. But the deal still doesn’t have a majority. Erg just need to wait to win. Whereas May has to offer Labour something.
Tick.
Tock.
I think that's right - she has to offer Labour something. Unfortunately, I am not sure she gets that.
Or go for a referendum. Leave with the May Deal or Remain.
You may as well serve the Tory party it's last rites with that kind of choice presented to the public.
The Tories are going to take a hit anyway. Allowing Remain on the ballot in a referendum might actually save the Tories in the long-run. You might not like it but that is tough luck! Go back to UKIP and rant about Europe to your hearts content.
Bullshit. 70% of our voters are leavers, 50% are no dealers. There aren't nearly enough votes in the centre to available to replace the ones we'd lose by putting remain back on the agenda. We'd end up as a rump if a party like the lib dems, Corbyn and the hard left would get 10 years unopposed while the right regrouped under a new banner. It would be an unmitigated disaster.
You seem to have no idea how many voters you are losing, who are - or could be - natural conservatives, by your current shenanigans. And it is those shenanigans that are making a Corbyn government ever more likely.
Max is right. Talking to members and our voters, we’d lose 25-40% of them overnight if we put Remain on the ballot.
Assuming May wins, today will have solved nothing at all. The same problems exist tomorrow, for both the Conservative Party and the country.
What has got worse is that the EU knows it needs to offer her nothing - because no-one else is now going to come in to re-negotiate with them. And May can't be bounced out, however crap her performance with them.
Corbyn now knows he will face May if he can get a VONC through - and get to face her again in any General Election he can cause. Quite an incentive now....
Well quite. A nice little detour. But the deal still doesn’t have a majority. Erg just need to wait to win. Whereas May has to offer Labour something.
Tick.
Tock.
I think that's right - she has to offer Labour something. Unfortunately, I am not sure she gets that.
Or go for a referendum. Leave with the May Deal or Remain.
You may as well serve the Tory party it's last rites with that kind of choice presented to the public.
That's an added bonus then!
It's also why that will never be the choice. I don't like May very much but she's not completely stupid.
Do you think she's stupid enough to let the country accidentally slip into No Deal Brexit? Because that might be the alternative to a 2nd referendum.
The CJEU have already done that, unfortunately. They've blocked off the one hope of avoiding it - that Labour's backbenches would see this as a better option than a crashout.
And as nobody will dare withdraw a50 and nobody will vote through the deal we are all screwed.
May will withdraw A50 if we get close to crash out imo. The cabinet have obviously been spooked by the secret briefings they have had on No Deal consequences.
She can't. It would require at the very least a vote in the Commons, and she doesn't have the numbers.
We are left with the default, because nobody can agree an alternative pathway. And no deal is the default.
If she put that to Parliament as the government proposal, it would sail through.
Assuming May wins, today will have solved nothing at all. The same problems exist tomorrow, for both the Conservative Party and the country.
What has got worse is that the EU knows it needs to offer her nothing - because no-one else is now going to come in to re-negotiate with them. And May can't be bounced out, however crap her performance with them.
Corbyn now knows he will face May if he can get a VONC through - and get to face her again in any General Election he can cause. Quite an incentive now....
Well quite. A nice little detour. But the deal still doesn’t have a majority. Erg just need to wait to win. Whereas May has to offer Labour something.
Tick.
Tock.
I think that's right - she has to offer Labour something. Unfortunately, I am not sure she gets that.
Or go for a referendum. Leave with the May Deal or Remain.
You may as well serve the Tory party it's last rites with that kind of choice presented to the public.
The Tories are going to take a hit anyway. Allowing Remain on the ballot in a referendum might actually save the Tories in the long-run. You might not like it but that is tough luck! Go back to UKIP and rant about Europe to your hearts content.
Bullshit. 70% of our voters are leavers, 50% are no dealers. There aren't nearly enough votes in the centre to available to replace the ones we'd lose by putting remain back on the agenda. We'd end up as a rump if a party like the lib dems, Corbyn and the hard left would get 10 years unopposed while the right regrouped under a new banner. It would be an unmitigated disaster.
You seem to have no idea how many voters you are losing, who are - or could be - natural conservatives, by your current shenanigans. And it is those shenanigans that are making a Corbyn government ever more likely.
Max is right. Talking to members and our voters, we’d lose 25-40% of them overnight if we put Remain on the ballot.
"Jenkin: She will have my firm support. Just not on the Deal"
In office but not in power...
And this is the key point. Win or lose May still won't be able to get concessions from Yerp or a vote through the Commons. An entertaining aside but doesn't really change anything.
The price of winning this vote has been to confirm that she is standing down before the next election. She has therefore offered herself up as a lame duck as the price of this vote.
Rather confirming the point of those who put in the letters.
In what way? Were there really that many people who thought she was going to last beyond Brexit day, assuming we even get there?
She confirmed that she wanted to lead them into 2022, but has had to concede that is a pipe dream.
Sure, but I always figured everyone knew that she didn't mean it, like Cameron not resigning if he lost the referendum, I assumed it was built into perceptions of her.
Assuming May wins, today will have solved nothing at all. The same problems exist tomorrow, for both the Conservative Party and the country.
What has got worse is that the EU knows it needs to offer her nothing - because no-one else is now going to come in to re-negotiate with them. And May can't be bounced out, however crap her performance with them.
Corbyn now knows he will face May if he can get a VONC through - and get to face her again in any General Election he can cause. Quite an incentive now....
Well quite. A nice little detour. But the deal still doesn’t have a majority. Erg just need to wait to win. Whereas May has to offer Labour something.
Tick.
Tock.
I think that's right - she has to offer Labour something. Unfortunately, I am not sure she gets that.
Or go for a referendum. Leave with the May Deal or Remain.
You may as well serve the Tory party it's last rites with that kind of choice presented to the public.
Your party is dying in front of you. This is - even though you won't believe me - one chance to appeal to voters beyond the core vote. And to get rid of the current parasites in your party who are killing it - like honey fungus which looks superficially appealing but over time kills the tree to which it attaches itself to.
Not really. We needed a bloodletting, unfortunately this is very poorly timed.
If (say) 90 MPs or fewer are against May, how stupid and incompetent does this make the ERGers look? They had the farce of the repeated claims about 48 letters being in over the last month, and when they finally do get them, they can't even put the knife in well.
As I said a while back: they are all tactics and no strategy.
Win or lose they had to put in letters if they disagree so fundamentally with the leader of their party. Good on them for that.
I'm talking about the way the ERG has played this: IMV they've behaved truly awfully, and been utterly incompetent.
I mean, if it's true one of them has been whinging that May called the vote too soon, that they wanted her to call it after the weekend, then you have to ask what the fu*k they've been playing at? They've been saying they're near 48 letters, or even past it, for weeks, and yet they're totally unprepared for it when it does happen?
Assuming May wins, today will have solved nothing at all. The same problems exist tomorrow, for both the Conservative Party and the country.
What has got worse is that the EU knows it needs to offer her nothing - because no-one else is now going to come in to re-negotiate with them. And May can't be bounced out, however crap her performance with them.
Corbyn now knows he will face May if he can get a VONC through - and get to face her again in any General Election he can cause. Quite an incentive now....
Well quite. A nice little detour. But the deal still doesn’t have a majority. Erg just need to wait to win. Whereas May has to offer Labour something.
Tick.
Tock.
I think that's right - she has to offer Labour something. Unfortunately, I am not sure she gets that.
Or go for a referendum. Leave with the May Deal or Remain.
You may as well serve the Tory party it's last rites with that kind of choice presented to the public.
Your party is dying in front of you. This is - even though you won't believe me - one chance to appeal to voters beyond the core vote. And to get rid of the current parasites in your party who are killing it - like honey fungus which looks superficially appealing but over time kills the tree to which it attaches itself to.
Not really. We needed a bloodletting, unfortunately this is very poorly timed.
Assuming May wins, today will have solved nothing at all. The same problems exist tomorrow, for both the Conservative Party and the country.
What has got worse is that the EU knows it needs to offer her nothing - because no-one else is now going to come in to re-negotiate with them. And May can't be bounced out, however crap her performance with them.
Corbyn now knows he will face May if he can get a VONC through - and get to face her again in any General Election he can cause. Quite an incentive now....
Well quite. A nice little detour. But the deal still doesn’t have a majority. Erg just need to wait to win. Whereas May has to offer Labour something.
Tick.
Tock.
I think that's right - she has to offer Labour something. Unfortunately, I am not sure she gets that.
Or go for a referendum. Leave with the May Deal or Remain.
You may as well serve the Tory party it's last rites with that kind of choice presented to the public.
The Tories are going to take a hit anyway. Allowing Remain on the ballot in a referendum might actually save the Tories in the long-run. You might not like it but that is tough luck! Go back to UKIP and rant about Europe to your hearts content.
Bullshit. 70% of our voters are leavers, 50% are no dealers. There aren't nearly enough votes in the centre to available to replace the ones we'd lose by putting remain back on the agenda. We'd end up as a rump if a party like the lib dems, Corbyn and the hard left would get 10 years unopposed while the right regrouped under a new banner. It would be an unmitigated disaster.
You seem to have no idea how many voters you are losing, who are - or could be - natural conservatives, by your current shenanigans. And it is those shenanigans that are making a Corbyn government ever more likely.
Max is right. Talking to members and our voters, we’d lose 25-40% of them overnight if we put Remain on the ballot.
Yes, far better to lose them slowly.
If, say, less than a third of voters support no deal in March, that is no basis for the conservatives to thrive anyway; especially if things go south subsequently
If (say) 90 MPs or fewer are against May, how stupid and incompetent does this make the ERGers look? They had the farce of the repeated claims about 48 letters being in over the last month, and when they finally do get them, they can't even put the knife in well.
As I said a while back: they are all tactics and no strategy.
Win or lose they had to put in letters if they disagree so fundamentally with the leader of their party. Good on them for that.
One could argue that at least the hotter kind of Brexiteers are bothering to vote for what they believe in, even if they do end up being outnumbered.
Whereas the hundreds of Europhiles and pragmatists who probably constitute a good majority in Parliament - and who view Brexit with disdain or outright horror - are content to make vacuous speeches or to remain silent, rather than seize control of this process and stop it in its tracks.
One can dispute the positioning of both the ERG wing and the Prime Minister, but at least it is possible to construct a reasonable argument to the effect that each is acting in what they believe to be the national interest. Whereas the ditherers are either moaning, wetting themselves, or both.
And one fundamental fact persists: if the majority in Parliament refuses to work together towards any agreed outcome, then Hard Brexit happens by default on March 29th next year.
Assuming May wins, today will have solved nothing at all. The same problems exist tomorrow, for both the Conservative Party and the country.
What has got worse is that the EU knows it needs to offer her nothing - because no-one else is now going to come in to re-negotiate with them. And May can't be bounced out, however crap her performance with them.
Corbyn now knows he will face May if he can get a VONC through - and get to face her again in any General Election he can cause. Quite an incentive now....
Well quite. A nice little detour. But the deal still doesn’t have a majority. Erg just need to wait to win. Whereas May has to offer Labour something.
Tick.
Tock.
I think that's right - she has to offer Labour something. Unfortunately, I am not sure she gets that.
Or go for a referendum. Leave with the May Deal or Remain.
You may as well serve the Tory party it's last rites with that kind of choice presented to the public.
That's an added bonus then!
It's also why that will never be the choice. I don't like May very much but she's not completely stupid.
Do you think she's stupid enough to let the country accidentally slip into No Deal Brexit? Because that might be the alternative to a 2nd referendum.
The CJEU have already done that, unfortunately. They've blocked off the one hope of avoiding it - that Labour's backbenches would see this as a better option than a crashout.
And as nobody will dare withdraw a50 and nobody will vote through the deal we are all screwed.
May will withdraw A50 if we get close to crash out imo. The cabinet have obviously been spooked by the secret briefings they have had on No Deal consequences.
She can't. It would require at the very least a vote in the Commons, and she doesn't have the numbers.
We are left with the default, because nobody can agree an alternative pathway. And no deal is the default.
If she put that to Parliament as the government proposal, it would sail through.
Not without Labour's support it wouldn't, and Corbyn has already shown he puts his own power and ego above the national interest.
Assuming May wins, today will have solved nothing at all. The same problems exist tomorrow, for both the Conservative Party and the country.
What has got worse is that the EU knows it needs to offer her nothing - because no-one else is now going to come in to re-negotiate with them. And May can't be bounced out, however crap her performance with them.
Corbyn now knows he will face May if he can get a VONC through - and get to face her again in any General Election he can cause. Quite an incentive now....
Well quite. A nice little detour. But the deal still doesn’t have a majority. Erg just need to wait to win. Whereas May has to offer Labour something.
Tick.
Tock.
I think that's right - she has to offer Labour something. Unfortunately, I am not sure she gets that.
Or go for a referendum. Leave with the May Deal or Remain.
You may as well serve the Tory party it's last rites with that kind of choice presented to the public.
The Tories are going to take a hit anyway. Allowing Remain on the ballot in a referendum might actually save the Tories in the long-run. You might not like it but that is tough luck! Go back to UKIP and rant about Europe to your hearts content.
Not sure why you think telling the people "you got it wrong, vote again" would save the Tories.
It's clearly not saying that.
She has tried her best to leave via a real and parliament won't let her.
Only resolution to above is to ask the people. Don't think it's that complex.
If you put Remain back on the ballot paper it's exactly how it will - rightly - be seen.
Assuming May wins, today will have solved nothing at all. The same problems exist tomorrow, for both the Conservative Party and the country.
What has got worse is that the EU knows it needs to offer her nothing - because no-one else is now going to come in to re-negotiate with them. And May can't be bounced out, however crap her performance with them.
Corbyn now knows he will face May if he can get a VONC through - and get to face her again in any General Election he can cause. Quite an incentive now....
Well quite. A nice little detour. But the deal still doesn’t have a majority. Erg just need to wait to win. Whereas May has to offer Labour something.
Tick.
Tock.
I think that's right - she has to offer Labour something. Unfortunately, I am not sure she gets that.
Or go for a referendum. Leave with the May Deal or Remain.
You may as well serve the Tory party it's last rites with that kind of choice presented to the public.
The Tories are going to take a hit anyway. Allowing Remain on the ballot in a referendum might actually save the Tories in the long-run. You might not like it but that is tough luck! Go back to UKIP and rant about Europe to your hearts content.
Bullshit. 70% of our voters are leavers, 50% are no dealers. There aren't nearly enough votes in the centre to available to replace the ones we'd lose by putting remain back on the agenda. We'd end up as a rump if a party like the lib dems, Corbyn and the hard left would get 10 years unopposed while the right regrouped under a new banner. It would be an unmitigated disaster.
You seem to have no idea how many voters you are losing, who are - or could be - natural conservatives, by your current shenanigans. And it is those shenanigans that are making a Corbyn government ever more likely.
Max is right. Talking to members and our voters, we’d lose 25-40% of them overnight if we put Remain on the ballot.
Assuming May wins, today will have solved nothing at all. The same problems exist tomorrow, for both the Conservative Party and the country.
What has got worse is that the EU knows it needs to offer her nothing - because no-one else is now going to come in to re-negotiate with them. And May can't be bounced out, however crap her performance with them.
Corbyn now knows he will face May if he can get a VONC through - and get to face her again in any General Election he can cause. Quite an incentive now....
Well quite. A nice little detour. But the deal still doesn’t have a majority. Erg just need to wait to win. Whereas May has to offer Labour something.
Tick.
Tock.
I think that's right - she has to offer Labour something. Unfortunately, I am not sure she gets that.
Or go for a referendum. Leave with the May Deal or Remain.
You may as well serve the Tory party it's last rites with that kind of choice presented to the public.
The Tories are going to take a hit anyway. Allowing Remain on the ballot in a referendum might actually save the Tories in the long-run. You might not like it but that is tough luck! Go back to UKIP and rant about Europe to your hearts content.
Bullshit. 70% of our voters are leavers, 50% are no dealers. There aren't nearly enough votes in the centre to available to replace the ones we'd lose by putting remain back on the agenda. We'd end up as a rump if a party like the lib dems, Corbyn and the hard left would get 10 years unopposed while the right regrouped under a new banner. It would be an unmitigated disaster.
You seem to have no idea how many voters you are losing, who are - or could be - natural conservatives, by your current shenanigans. And it is those shenanigans that are making a Corbyn government ever more likely.
Max is right. Talking to members and our voters, we’d lose 25-40% of them overnight if we put Remain on the ballot.
Of course, all that matters is The Party and sod the bloody country.
Assuming May wins, today will have solved nothing at all. The same problems exist tomorrow, for both the Conservative Party and the country.
What has got worse is that the EU knows it needs to offer her nothing - because no-one else is now going to come in to re-negotiate with them. And May can't be bounced out, however crap her performance with them.
Corbyn now knows he will face May if he can get a VONC through - and get to face her again in any General Election he can cause. Quite an incentive now....
Well quite. A nice little detour. But the deal still doesn’t have a majority. Erg just need to wait to win. Whereas May has to offer Labour something.
Tick.
Tock.
I think that's right - she has to offer Labour something. Unfortunately, I am not sure she gets that.
Or go for a referendum. Leave with the May Deal or Remain.
You may as well serve the Tory party it's last rites with that kind of choice presented to the public.
That's an added bonus then!
It's also why that will never be the choice. I don't like May very much but she's not completely stupid.
Do you think she's stupid enough to let the country accidentally slip into No Deal Brexit? Because that might be the alternative to a 2nd referendum.
The CJEU have already done that, unfortunately. They've blocked off the one hope of avoiding it - that Labour's backbenches would see this as a better option than a crashout.
And as nobody will dare withdraw a50 and nobody will vote through the deal we are all screwed.
May will withdraw A50 if we get close to crash out imo. The cabinet have obviously been spooked by the secret briefings they have had on No Deal consequences.
She can't. It would require at the very least a vote in the Commons, and she doesn't have the numbers.
We are left with the default, because nobody can agree an alternative pathway. And no deal is the default.
If she put that to Parliament as the government proposal, it would sail through.
Not without Labour's support it wouldn't, and Corbyn has already shown he puts his own power and ego above the national interest.
Corbyn would have to surf the wave or get very wet.
Assuming May wins, today will have solved nothing at all. The same problems exist tomorrow, for both the Conservative Party and the country.
What has got worse is that the EU knows it needs to offer her nothing - because no-one else is now going to come in to re-negotiate with them. And May can't be bounced out, however crap her performance with them.
Corbyn now knows he will face May if he can get a VONC through - and get to face her again in any General Election he can cause. Quite an incentive now....
Well quite. A nice little detour. But the deal still doesn’t have a majority. Erg just need to wait to win. Whereas May has to offer Labour something.
Tick.
Tock.
I think that's right - she has to offer Labour something. Unfortunately, I am not sure she gets that.
Or go for a referendum. Leave with the May Deal or Remain.
You may as well serve the Tory party it's last rites with that kind of choice presented to the public.
Your party is dying in front of you. This is - even though you won't believe me - one chance to appeal to voters beyond the core vote. And to get rid of the current parasites in your party who are killing it - like honey fungus which looks superficially appealing but over time kills the tree to which it attaches itself to.
Not really. We needed a bloodletting, unfortunately this is very poorly timed.
Which blood do you think needs letting?
Across the whole party tbh, as I said if the PM wins then the ERG needs to fall in line or lose the whip.
So if May wins, she has licence to screw things up as badly as this week without the threat of a leadership challenge. I am not sure that’s a huge improvement.
Comments
And as nobody will dare withdraw a50 and nobody will vote through the deal we are all screwed.
Getting this resolved wins brownie points, not an internal dialogue that the electorate are frankly bewildered by, with the preference for leaving seeming to shrink week by week now in the polls.
Twat
Rather confirming the point of those who put in the letters.
"Look at me now. Will I ever learn?
She has tried her best to leave via a real and parliament won't let her.
Only resolution to above is to ask the people. Don't think it's that complex.
https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1072955817605894145
We are left with the default, because nobody can agree an alternative pathway. And no deal is the default.
Looks like punters have made their minds up.
In office but not in power...
It's not a brilliant plan but its better than most of the others...
Whereas the hundreds of Europhiles and pragmatists who probably constitute a good majority in Parliament - and who view Brexit with disdain or outright horror - are content to make vacuous speeches or to remain silent, rather than seize control of this process and stop it in its tracks.
One can dispute the positioning of both the ERG wing and the Prime Minister, but at least it is possible to construct a reasonable argument to the effect that each is acting in what they believe to be the national interest. Whereas the ditherers are either moaning, wetting themselves, or both.
And one fundamental fact persists: if the majority in Parliament refuses to work together towards any agreed outcome, then Hard Brexit happens by default on March 29th next year.
I mean, if it's true one of them has been whinging that May called the vote too soon, that they wanted her to call it after the weekend, then you have to ask what the fu*k they've been playing at? They've been saying they're near 48 letters, or even past it, for weeks, and yet they're totally unprepared for it when it does happen?
https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1072937596597211136
By which I mean I agree with you.
Camilla Tominay previously
In another era they'd be horsewhipped.
Anyway, the tedious wait should be over in a couple of minutes, then we'll know for certain.
There's some evidence for the existence of Bigfoot.