The fundamental fact in all this is that May does not have the votes in the HoC. She needs to make a bold offer to someone.
A full, open and honest offer to Nick Clegg.
Practically, there are only two parties she can make an offer to: Labour and the SNP. What could she possibly offer them?
A referendum or an election.
The SNP an IndyRef to opt-out of the deal. Labour a 1 Mar General Election.
or
A second referendum. Deal, No Deal or No Brexit.
I thought of that, but I don't think the SNP would take Indyref2 now, they want to do it in a couple of years when the Brexit backlash is at its nastiest in Scotland.
But yes: if May made an agreement to form a grand coalition with Corbyn that lasts until the day after the deal is voted through Parliament followed by an immediate dissolution and early Jan election?
Corbyn would go for that.
She would be out of office the day she suggested it
It's looking like she's going to be out of office today anyway. She's got nothing left to lose. ROLL THOSE DICE.
She is not going to make a suicidal offer to labour, though how long she stays in office is another question
She needs to do something radical. It is Hail Mary time. GE 2nd referendum, national govt, article 50 withdrawal or resignation. Nothing has changed is not an option.
Deal or stay in referendum is the way to go. "This is best deal we could negotiate. No deal cannot be countenanced by a responsible government. Now full picture is available the people should decide." That will get through Parliament.
Frankly now, i'm not sure it would. Labour wouldn't go for it, and the ERG wouldn't go for it.
You may be right but Labour would then own risk of no deal. Most of the young Labour voters would love that option which is chance to reverse leave with backstop of soft Brexit. The problem for any other referendum choice is that crash out might well win.
Some renewed financial planning is required as I sense events leading to a GE2019 like a multiple cannon in billiards.Transfer money from poor peforming ISAs and place in a 25 point betting bank for a better return than 1.5%.Each wager to represent a minimum of 2% of betting bank.The books are likely to hedge against another Corbyn surge which is likely to be priced in and so worse value. Punters need to get their betting boots on for yet another GE.
I am so depressed about all this. It's just so wording inevitable. May doesn't have the necessary votes, there's no point speculating on that anymore, so unless she's about to announce a referendum with Corbyns backing, and immediately be ousted, just effing quit already.
She tried. Too late, but she tried. And failed. The Tories are too divided and have been for along time without admitting it. It's time for this government to end.
Deal or stay in referendum is the way to go. "This is best deal we could negotiate. No deal cannot be countenanced by a responsible government. Now full picture is available the people should decide." That will get through Parliament.
Frankly now, i'm not sure it would. Labour wouldn't go for it, and the ERG wouldn't go for it.
You may be right but Labour would then own risk of no deal. Most of the young Labour voters would love that option which is chance to reverse leave with backstop of soft Brexit. The problem for any other referendum choice is that crash out might well win.
No, Labour would keep up the pretence of 'we'll do better'.
It's a lie, but it'll work for them until they get into No10.
The fundamental fact in all this is that May does not have the votes in the HoC. She needs to make a bold offer to someone.
A full, open and honest offer to Nick Clegg.
Practically, there are only two parties she can make an offer to: Labour and the SNP. What could she possibly offer them?
A referendum or an election.
The SNP an IndyRef to opt-out of the deal. Labour a 1 Mar General Election.
or
A second referendum. Deal, No Deal or No Brexit.
I thought of that, but I don't think the SNP would take Indyref2 now, they want to do it in a couple of years when the Brexit backlash is at its nastiest in Scotland.
But yes: if May made an agreement to form a grand coalition with Corbyn that lasts until the day after the deal is voted through Parliament followed by an immediate dissolution and early Jan election?
Corbyn would go for that.
She would be out of office the day she suggested it
It's looking like she's going to be out of office today anyway. She's got nothing left to lose. ROLL THOSE DICE.
She is not going to make a suicidal offer to labour, though how long she stays in office is another question
She needs to do something radical. It is Hail Mary time. GE 2nd referendum, national govt, article 50 withdrawal or resignation. Nothing has changed is not an option.
Deal or stay in referendum is the way to go. "This is best deal we could negotiate. No deal cannot be countenanced by a responsible government. Now full picture is available the people should decide." That will get through Parliament.
I'm not convinced that the people will appreciate the high handed assumption that they cannot select the option they desire.
Referendum 1 Deal: accept or reject Referendum 2 (if 1 was reject) Out (WTO) or In (on terms agreed before referendum 2)
I genuinely don't get why these people didn't resign last night. If they couldn't support it no need to take stock of media or party reaction or likelihood of passing and it's not like it is one last favour to May to give her one night of fake unity. Why the delay?
Deal or stay in referendum is the way to go. "This is best deal we could negotiate. No deal cannot be countenanced by a responsible government. Now full picture is available the people should decide." That will get through Parliament.
I'm not convinced that the people will appreciate the high handed assumption that they cannot select the option they desire.
Referendum 1 Deal: accept or reject Referendum 2 (if 1 was reject) Out (WTO) or In (on terms agreed before referendum 2)
You can't put an option to people in a referendum that cannot be delivered.
The fundamental fact in all this is that May does not have the votes in the HoC. She needs to make a bold offer to someone.
A full, open and honest offer to Nick Clegg.
Practically, there are only two parties she can make an offer to: Labour and the SNP. What could she possibly offer them?
A referendum or an election.
The SNP an IndyRef to opt-out of the deal. Labour a 1 Mar General Election.
or
A second referendum. Deal, No Deal or No Brexit.
I thought of that, but I don't think the SNP would take Indyref2 now, they want to do it in a couple of years when the Brexit backlash is at its nastiest in Scotland.
But yes: if May made an agreement to form a grand coalition with Corbyn that lasts until the day after the deal is voted through Parliament followed by an immediate dissolution and early Jan election?
Corbyn would go for that.
Any sort of deal by the SNP with the Tories will be electorally disastrous for them. Not a snowballs chance in Hell
Has SeanT flounced and said we might as well remain, yet?
Suspect quite a few moderate/"reluctant" leavers will be saying that in days to come, if this type of chaos continues.
I thought the deal was quite good, representative of the quiet majority who just want a bloody end to this now. Whoever is blamed for prolonging this s***show will be brutally punished at the polls.
Having discovered that Britain is an island close to France, Dominic Raab has now worked out that he has spent the last few months working ion a deal that essentially keeps the UK in the Customs Union and Single Market for the forseeable future. If he were to become PM he will need ot speed up his ability to learn and absorb information.
Post of the day so far.
I agree. Southam for POTY!!!
Strikes me this whole exercise has been a process of explaining to Brexiteers that we pooled some sovereignty with EU in order that we didn't have take rules from the huge trading block next door to us without any say.
They must be spectacularly thick if it takes a hammer this big to ram it through their skulls....
They are thick beyond imagination. But they are totally shielded from the consequences of their stupidity and mendaciousness.
But they should not be. Any political Leader worth their salt would have tossed these non-entities out years ago.
I am so depressed about all this. It's just so wording inevitable. May doesn't have the necessary votes, there's no point speculating on that anymore, so unless she's about to announce a referendum with Corbyns backing, and immediately be ousted, just effing quit already.
She tried. Too late, but she tried. And failed. The Tories are too divided and have been for along time without admitting it. It's time for this government to end.
It was inevitable before the referendum, which is why I reluctantly voted remain. The two versions of leave offered in the referendum campaign could never be reconciled, and it was clear that that would lead to this sort of sh*t.
In fact, it's why after leave won, I said I was in favour of a planned hard Brexit: forget the impossibility of getting a deal, and concentrate on the planning for a hard Brexit for a number of years. It'd be harmful, but less harmful than this mess.
It's sad that so many vociferous leavers are absent today.
The fundamental fact in all this is that May does not have the votes in the HoC. She needs to make a bold offer to someone.
A full, open and honest offer to Nick Clegg.
Practically, there are only two parties she can make an offer to: Labour and the SNP. What could she possibly offer them?
A referendum or an election.
The SNP an IndyRef to opt-out of the deal. Labour a 1 Mar General Election.
or
A second referendum. Deal, No Deal or No Brexit.
I thought of that, but I don't think the SNP would take Indyref2 now, they want to do it in a couple of years when the Brexit backlash is at its nastiest in Scotland.
But yes: if May made an agreement to form a grand coalition with Corbyn that lasts until the day after the deal is voted through Parliament followed by an immediate dissolution and early Jan election?
Corbyn would go for that.
She would be out of office the day she suggested it
It's looking like she's going to be out of office today anyway. She's got nothing left to lose. ROLL THOSE DICE.
She is not going to make a suicidal offer to labour, though how long she stays in office is another question
She needs to do something radical. It is Hail Mary time. GE 2nd referendum, national govt, article 50 withdrawal or resignation. Nothing has changed is not an option.
I think you may be correct.
Apart from the fact she has no authority to do anything anymore.
Having discovered that Britain is an island close to France, Dominic Raab has now worked out that he has spent the last few months working ion a deal that essentially keeps the UK in the Customs Union and Single Market for the forseeable future. If he were to become PM he will need ot speed up his ability to learn and absorb information.
Post of the day so far.
I agree. Southam for POTY!!!
Strikes me this whole exercise has been a process of explaining to Brexiteers that we pooled some sovereignty with EU in order that we didn't have take rules from the huge trading block next door to us without any say.
They must be spectacularly thick if it takes a hammer this big to ram it through their skulls....
They are thick beyond imagination. But they are totally shielded from the consequences of their stupidity and mendaciousness.
But they should not be. Any political Leader worth their salt would have tossed these non-entities out years ago.
Labour never got rid of Corbyn. And he'll be PM within two years, I reckon (though not next PM).
What's the point of resigning and not submitting letters? Letters should have gone in when Davis resigned. If they don't go in today then they're all mouth and no trousers.
To think the Tories were talked about a while back as knowing how to get rid of a leader.
The deal that Theresa May and Olly Robbins have cooked up is what happens when you task vegans with making a meat pie.
You're a leaver. You argued for leave.
You own this, and you own the consequences.
I'd accept that - if the current shit-show hadn't had Remainer ring-masters.
Olly Robbins has done nothing in my name. Or in my cause.
I blame Gove for where we are.
Ultimately it was up to the government to set the direction. What was Olly Robbins supposed to do? May and Hammond chose to do no planning for no deal. They never had any leverage. It's their fault.
Deal or stay in referendum is the way to go. "This is best deal we could negotiate. No deal cannot be countenanced by a responsible government. Now full picture is available the people should decide." That will get through Parliament.
I'm not convinced that the people will appreciate the high handed assumption that they cannot select the option they desire.
Referendum 1 Deal: accept or reject Referendum 2 (if 1 was reject) Out (WTO) or In (on terms agreed before referendum 2)
You can't put an option to people in a referendum that cannot be delivered.
Peter Hain saying a second referendum with deal - no deal - remain which is the only fair way
I genuinely don't get why these people didn't resign last night. If they couldn't support it no need to take stock of media or party reaction or likelihood of passing and it's not like it is one last favour to May to give her one night of fake unity. Why the delay?
8am 8am 10am
11 am Khan??
BJO, don't know if you've seen it, but there's good news in your neck o' the woods. They've missed out on the main factory, but have got the training hub:
The problem for the GE is what is in the Tory manifesto.
Indeed, no way this group of idiots could line up behind a brexit policy. It's why a second ref must be offered. It goes against what Corbyn wants in a GE but as his party mostly do want a ref he should go with it - a GE will come in 2019 without help anyway as the DUP and Tory rebels ensure no minority gov is possible.
Deal or stay in referendum is the way to go. "This is best deal we could negotiate. No deal cannot be countenanced by a responsible government. Now full picture is available the people should decide." That will get through Parliament.
I'm not convinced that the people will appreciate the high handed assumption that they cannot select the option they desire.
Referendum 1 Deal: accept or reject Referendum 2 (if 1 was reject) Out (WTO) or In (on terms agreed before referendum 2)
You can't put an option to people in a referendum that cannot be delivered.
Peter Hain saying a second referendum with deal - no deal - remain which is the only fair way
I honestly do not think there can be a "fair" referendum question. On a simple three-way vote, a lot of people will be under pressure to vote tactically, and that would lead to a very misleading result.
Ironic if Corbyn, despite being a leaver, becomes the man who stopped Brexit by dint of first encouraging a hubristic PM to gamble on his uselessness and then taking away her majority.
Deal or stay in referendum is the way to go. "This is best deal we could negotiate. No deal cannot be countenanced by a responsible government. Now full picture is available the people should decide." That will get through Parliament.
I'm not convinced that the people will appreciate the high handed assumption that they cannot select the option they desire.
Referendum 1 Deal: accept or reject Referendum 2 (if 1 was reject) Out (WTO) or In (on terms agreed before referendum 2)
You can't put an option to people in a referendum that cannot be delivered.
Surely the last two years have proved that you can do exactly that?
The fundamental fact in all this is that May does not have the votes in the HoC. She needs to make a bold offer to someone.
A full, open and honest offer to Nick Clegg.
Practically, there are only two parties she can make an offer to: Labour and the SNP. What could she possibly offer them?
A referendum or an election.
The SNP an IndyRef to opt-out of the deal. Labour a 1 Mar General Election.
or
A second referendum. Deal, No Deal or No Brexit.
I thought of that, but I don't think the SNP would take Indyref2 now, they want to do it in a couple of years when the Brexit backlash is at its nastiest in Scotland.
But yes: if May made an agreement to form a grand coalition with Corbyn that lasts until the day after the deal is voted through Parliament followed by an immediate dissolution and early Jan election?
Corbyn would go for that.
She would be out of office the day she suggested it
It's looking like she's going to be out of office today anyway. She's got nothing left to lose. ROLL THOSE DICE.
She is not going to make a suicidal offer to labour, though how long she stays in office is another question
She needs to do something radical. It is Hail Mary time. GE 2nd referendum, national govt, article 50 withdrawal or resignation. Nothing has changed is not an option.
Ironic if Corbyn, despite being a leaver, becomes the man who stopped Brexit by dint of first encouraging a hubristic PM to gamble on his uselessness and then taking away her majority.
The deal that Theresa May and Olly Robbins have cooked up is what happens when you task vegans with making a meat pie.
You're a leaver. You argued for leave.
You own this, and you own the consequences.
I'd accept that - if the current shit-show hadn't had Remainer ring-masters.
Olly Robbins has done nothing in my name. Or in my cause.
I blame Gove for where we are.
What bullshit. This is what you voted for. It doesn't matter what flights of fancy fluttered through your fevered, deranged imagination: it was obvious that the two leave options could not be reconciled.
And you're doing exactly what leavers were doing before the referendum: it isn't our fault; it's the EU's fault.
There's always someone else for you to blame for your own fuckup.
The problem for the GE is what is in the Tory manifesto.
Indeed, no way this group of idiots could line up behind a brexit policy. It's why a second ref must be offered. It goes against what Corbyn wants in a GE but as his party mostly do want a ref he should go with it - a GE will come in 2019 without help anyway as the DUP and Tory rebels ensure no minority gov is possible.
It's hard to see how we don't have a referendum from here. But the issue is what the question is: (1) May's Deal or No Deal; (2) May's Deal or Remain; (3) May's Deal, No Deal or Remain. My guess is that Remain wins 2 or 3, May wins 1 - but that this would be the hardest to get through Parliament (precisely for that reason).
I honestly do not think there can be a "fair" referendum question. On a simple three-way vote, a lot of people will be under pressure to vote tactically, and that would lead to a very misleading result.
I totally agree. When you actually try and define what leave and remain entails it becomes very difficult.
The closest you could perhaps come to having a concrete definition is to offer the public something like EFTA, WTO, fullest EU membership.
One thing is for sure, I won't be voting Tory again for a long long time. Once was clearly enough and this lot cannot get over their internal squabbles to actually govern the country.
Corbyn holds no terrors any more. And since I live in a safe seat my vote or not won't even contribute to him becoming pm, so I'll be blameless, yay.
The deal that Theresa May and Olly Robbins have cooked up is what happens when you task vegans with making a meat pie.
You're a leaver. You argued for leave.
You own this, and you own the consequences.
I'd accept that - if the current shit-show hadn't had Remainer ring-masters.
Olly Robbins has done nothing in my name. Or in my cause.
I blame Gove for where we are.
Ultimately it was up to the government to set the direction. What was Olly Robbins supposed to do? May and Hammond chose to do no planning for no deal. They never had any leverage. It's their fault.
Oh, the only sensible planning once we had the Referendum result was for Hard As Nails Brexit. Either it would sway the EU in the negotaitions - in which case it was worth it - or it wouldn't have changed a thing, other than our readiness when they came back with unacceptable "take it or leave it" vassalage.
It was always going to be like Python's King Arthur dealing with the French...inevitably, we were going to have a cauldron of shit poured over us.
Deal or stay in referendum is the way to go. "This is best deal we could negotiate. No deal cannot be countenanced by a responsible government. Now full picture is available the people should decide." That will get through Parliament.
Frankly now, i'm not sure it would. Labour wouldn't go for it, and the ERG wouldn't go for it.
You may be right but Labour would then own risk of no deal. Most of the young Labour voters would love that option which is chance to reverse leave with backstop of soft Brexit. The problem for any other referendum choice is that crash out might well win.
No, Labour would keep up the pretence of 'we'll do better'.
It's a lie, but it'll work for them until they get into No10.
I genuinely don't get why these people didn't resign last night. If they couldn't support it no need to take stock of media or party reaction or likelihood of passing and it's not like it is one last favour to May to give her one night of fake unity. Why the delay?
8am 8am 10am
11 am Khan??
Hunt will go, too. This is all about the forthcoming leadership election and the only way you get to stand is by resigning. It's all so transparent. Never has the total lack of a credible opposition been so damaging to the national interest.
Deal or stay in referendum is the way to go. "This is best deal we could negotiate. No deal cannot be countenanced by a responsible government. Now full picture is available the people should decide." That will get through Parliament.
Frankly now, i'm not sure it would. Labour wouldn't go for it, and the ERG wouldn't go for it.
You may be right but Labour would then own risk of no deal. Most of the young Labour voters would love that option which is chance to reverse leave with backstop of soft Brexit. The problem for any other referendum choice is that crash out might well win.
No, Labour would keep up the pretence of 'we'll do better'.
It's a lie, but it'll work for them until they get into No10.
I'm not sure anybody would believe them.
Have cake and eat it politics works. The referendum campaign shows that.
The deal that Theresa May and Olly Robbins have cooked up is what happens when you task vegans with making a meat pie.
You're a leaver. You argued for leave.
You own this, and you own the consequences.
I'd accept that - if the current shit-show hadn't had Remainer ring-masters.
Olly Robbins has done nothing in my name. Or in my cause.
I blame Gove for where we are.
What bullshit. This is what you voted for. It doesn't matter what flights of fancy fluttered through your fevered, deranged imagination: it was obvious that the two leave options could not be reconciled.
And you're doing exactly what leavers were doing before the referendum: it isn't our fault; it's the EU's fault.
There's always someone else for you to blame for your own fuckup.
Utter bullshit. If this is what we'd voted for it would be getting lapped up by Leavers. Its patently obvious this is some meally mouthed bullshit cooked up by those who didn't believe in Brexit.
May said 2 things that were true: no deal is better than a bad deal and in order to deliver Brexit you need to believe in Brexit. May and Robbins didn't believe in Brexit and have come up with a turd of a deal.
Corbyn. Im serious, he has a better chance of commanding the confidence of thr house thsn May or a caretsker tory. I doubt he would win a vote but he'd get more than someone else.
Deal or stay in referendum is the way to go. "This is best deal we could negotiate. No deal cannot be countenanced by a responsible government. Now full picture is available the people should decide." That will get through Parliament.
Frankly now, i'm not sure it would. Labour wouldn't go for it, and the ERG wouldn't go for it.
You may be right but Labour would then own risk of no deal. Most of the young Labour voters would love that option which is chance to reverse leave with backstop of soft Brexit. The problem for any other referendum choice is that crash out might well win.
No, Labour would keep up the pretence of 'we'll do better'.
It's a lie, but it'll work for them until they get into No10.
I'm not sure anybody would believe them.
Have cake and eat it politics works. The referendum campaign shows that.
Comments
It is Hail Mary time.
GE 2nd referendum, national govt, article 50 withdrawal or resignation.
Nothing has changed is not an option.
Olly Robbins has done nothing in my name. Or in my cause.
I blame Gove for where we are.
Cometh the hour, Cometh the man......
Punters need to get their betting boots on for yet another GE.
She tried. Too late, but she tried. And failed. The Tories are too divided and have been for along time without admitting it. It's time for this government to end.
It's a lie, but it'll work for them until they get into No10.
Referendum 1 Deal: accept or reject
Referendum 2 (if 1 was reject) Out (WTO) or In (on terms agreed before referendum 2)
Suspended as in play?
11 am Khan??
Suspect quite a few moderate/"reluctant" leavers will be saying that in days to come, if this type of chaos continues.
I thought the deal was quite good, representative of the quiet majority who just want a bloody end to this now. Whoever is blamed for prolonging this s***show will be brutally punished at the polls.
https://twitter.com/twitonatrain/status/879308946959421440?s=19
In fact, it's why after leave won, I said I was in favour of a planned hard Brexit: forget the impossibility of getting a deal, and concentrate on the planning for a hard Brexit for a number of years. It'd be harmful, but less harmful than this mess.
It's sad that so many vociferous leavers are absent today.
We could have a 6-way dead-heat by teatime.
Only allowed me a little amount, but those strike me as good odds.
To think the Tories were talked about a while back as knowing how to get rid of a leader.
https://www.derbyshiretimes.co.uk/news/business/talgo-innovation-hub-to-be-created-at-barrow-hill-as-chesterfield-narrowly-misses-out-on-train-factory-1-9443442
She should say Corbyn. The Tories are so divided labour might as well be largest party.
The chance is not zero.
And you're doing exactly what leavers were doing before the referendum: it isn't our fault; it's the EU's fault.
There's always someone else for you to blame for your own fuckup.
The problem is, neither is Corbyn...
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1063013464401211393
womp womp
The closest you could perhaps come to having a concrete definition is to offer the public something like EFTA, WTO, fullest EU membership.
This could be over by 5pm tonight.
Corbyn holds no terrors any more. And since I live in a safe seat my vote or not won't even contribute to him becoming pm, so I'll be blameless, yay.
It was always going to be like Python's King Arthur dealing with the French...inevitably, we were going to have a cauldron of shit poured over us.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey0wvGiAH9g
https://twitter.com/annietrev
Cometh the hour, cometh the man?
May said 2 things that were true: no deal is better than a bad deal and in order to deliver Brexit you need to believe in Brexit. May and Robbins didn't believe in Brexit and have come up with a turd of a deal.