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  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,747
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Theo said:

    Tough on Scottish fish,
    Tough on the causes of Scottish fish

    Incorrect. No access for French, Spanish and Dutch fishermen was included in the agreement. Kuensberg pointed this yesterday.
    You've been had. That relates to the UK-wide customs union backstop. It is not a deal that will ever be implemented as is.
    Also, the fish contracts are commercial agreements to certain companies / vessels. For example,one Dutch family own a boat (registered in the UK, "owned" by a UK company) has the right to catch 25% of all UK based cod because they have bought out competitors and acquired their quotas.

    They sell all the UK catch abroad to non-EU countries. Please explain how Brexit will solve this....
    The government could issue fresh quotas with new requirements, eg, that a certain percentage of the quota required to be landed at UK ports; that the crew included UK citizens; that the boats were not over a certain size, that under competition law no associated companies were to have more than 5% of the rights, etc.

    I remember when my firm was buying prime agricultural farms in Angus and paying more for the milk quota than they were for the land and buildings. It is utterly ridiculous when markets are distorted to such an extent. Milk quota, in those days, was a licence to print money but there was no guarantee that that would always be the case and once we are out of the CFP it will be for us to decide how consents are given out. Unless, of course, we have agreed otherwise.
    Howrver, as I pointed out, Gove has promised to maintain existing quotas in his whitepaper, and being in the CFP does not prevent reallocation.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jul/06/uk-fishing-fleets-unlikely-to-gain-from-brexit-despite-goves-claims-say-experts
    My understanding was that that undertaking was for the transitional period only. We have also been told that there is nothing in this agreement about this (which surprises me). A UK White paper is not a binding commitment. I think we will have to wait and see but there are a number of new Scottish Tory MPs whose future may turn on this.
    From the same article:

    "Under the EU rules, the UK already has and always has possessed the power to alter the way quota is allocated, and if it wished could make more of the quota available to smaller vessels. Successive governments have declined to do so, partly because of the complexity of changing the allocations, which might face legal challenges from the owners of big vessels, but also out of free-market ideology."
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,746
    Theo said:

    All possible under this great deal. Impossible with a hard left Corbyn government trying to build socialism in one country in the midst of an economic crash.

    Are you posting from CCHQ?
  • Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:



    You've been had. That relates to the UK-wide customs union backstop. It is not a deal that will ever be implemented as is.

    Also, the fish contracts are commercial agreements to certain companies / vessels. For example,one Dutch family own a boat (registered in the UK, "owned" by a UK company) has the right to catch 25% of all UK based cod because they have bought out competitors and acquired their quotas.

    They sell all the UK catch abroad to non-EU countries. Please explain how Brexit will solve this....
    The government could issue fresh quotas with new requirements, eg, that a certain percentage of the quota required to be landed at UK ports; that the crew included UK citizens; that the boats were not over a certain size, that under competition law no associated companies were to have more than 5% of the rights, etc.

    I remember when my firm was buying prime agricultural farms in Angus and paying more for the milk quota than they were for the land and buildings. It is utterly ridiculous when markets are distorted to such an extent. Milk quota, in those days, was a licence to print money but there was no guarantee that that would always be the case and once we are out of the CFP it will be for us to decide how consents are given out. Unless, of course, we have agreed otherwise.
    Howrver, as I pointed out, Gove has promised to maintain existing quotas in his whitepaper, and being in the CFP does not prevent reallocation.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jul/06/uk-fishing-fleets-unlikely-to-gain-from-brexit-despite-goves-claims-say-experts
    My understanding was that that undertaking was for the transitional period only. We have also been told that there is nothing in this agreement about this (which surprises me). A UK White paper is not a binding commitment. I think we will have to wait and see but there are a number of new Scottish Tory MPs whose future may turn on this.
    From the same article:

    "Under the EU rules, the UK already has and always has possessed the power to alter the way quota is allocated, and if it wished could make more of the quota available to smaller vessels. Successive governments have declined to do so, partly because of the complexity of changing the allocations, which might face legal challenges from the owners of big vessels, but also out of free-market ideology."
    If the Scots think their problem is being part of CFP and making their demands accordingly, it hardly matters if the real truth is harder to swallow.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    Theo said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I don't get the fuss about free trade deals. We have excellent trade deals right now through the EU. We know the EU negotiators are excellent. We know ours are crap.

    Are our crap negotiators going to out there and get better deals for the UK only than the EU excellent negotiators got for the EU including the UK?

    Yes. The USA is considerably bigger than the entire EU27 put together. Why is it we in the EU don't have a deal with them but Australia do?
    The US had hardly any free trade deals.
    Just with successful independent countries like Australia, South Korea and Singapore. Ie precisely the countries we should be acting like with a free trade mentality outside of the EU.
    The total population of the countries the US has free trade deals with is tiny. It is - simply - not a very pro-free trade country.
    Isn't it really easy to get a trade deal with the US if you simply sign up to their boiler plate one which gives the US all the benefits? I'd guess with most countries a trade deal is very easy to get, if you aren't fussed about it actually getting concessions to aid your own trade and are willing to give them whatever they want. I was a bit worried that the Fantastic Dr Fox might be tempted to go around the world signing anything put in front of him.
    The best trade deal that is ready made for us is the Trans Pacific Partnership. Some of the signatories have already asked us to join, Canada, Japan and Australia have already vetted it to be good for various advanced economies, and the crap the US put in it was cut out after Trump's tantrum. Once that is done we can negotiate as a bloc with the USA trying to reenter good relations with the world post-Trump.

    All possible under this great deal. Impossible with a hard left Corbyn government trying to build socialism in one country in the midst of an economic crash.
    How can we do such a deal if we are in a CU with the EU?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    Theo said:

    All possible under this great deal. Impossible with a hard left Corbyn government trying to build socialism in one country in the midst of an economic crash.

    Are you posting from CCHQ?
    The IMF reckons we're due for an upgrade if May's deal passes.
  • Theo said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I don't get the fuss about free trade deals. We have excellent trade deals right now through the EU. We know the EU negotiators are excellent. We know ours are crap.

    Are our crap negotiators going to out there and get better deals for the UK only than the EU excellent negotiators got for the EU including the UK?

    Yes. The USA is considerably bigger than the entire EU27 put together. Why is it we in the EU don't have a deal with them but Australia do?
    The US had hardly any free trade deals.
    Just with successful independent countries like Australia, South Korea and Singapore. Ie precisely the countries we should be acting like with a free trade mentality outside of the EU.
    The total population of the countries the US has free trade deals with is tiny. It is - simply - not a very pro-free trade country.
    Isn't it really easy to get a trade deal with the US if you simply sign up to their boiler plate one which gives the US all the benefits? I'd guess with most countries a trade deal is very easy to get, if you aren't fussed about it actually getting concessions to aid your own trade and are willing to give them whatever they want. I was a bit worried that the Fantastic Dr Fox might be tempted to go around the world signing anything put in front of him.
    The best trade deal that is ready made for us is the Trans Pacific Partnership. Some of the signatories have already asked us to join, Canada, Japan and Australia have already vetted it to be good for various advanced economies, and the crap the US put in it was cut out after Trump's tantrum. Once that is done we can negotiate as a bloc with the USA trying to reenter good relations with the world post-Trump.

    All possible under this great deal. Impossible with a hard left Corbyn government trying to build socialism in one country in the midst of an economic crash.
    Theresa. Shouldn't you concentrate on chairing your cabinet meeting instead of moonlighting on here?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293

    Sky reporting Penny Mordaunt wanting a free vote

    As they're all still locked in the Cabinet how on earth does anyone know that? :D
  • Just the typical intemperate language I'd expect from traitorous Leavers.

    https://twitter.com/tomhfh/status/1062744202428198913
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Ominous.

    Graham Brady has called an unscheduled 1922 meeting at the exact time May is speaking.

    womp womp

    https://twitter.com/rosskempsell/status/1062740461943734272
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    Foxy said:


    From the same article:

    "Under the EU rules, the UK already has and always has possessed the power to alter the way quota is allocated, and if it wished could make more of the quota available to smaller vessels. Successive governments have declined to do so, partly because of the complexity of changing the allocations, which might face legal challenges from the owners of big vessels, but also out of free-market ideology."

    Blimey, not using the tools we had - just like immigration !
  • DavidL said:

    Theo said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I don't get the fuss about free trade deals. We have excellent trade deals right now through the EU. We know the EU negotiators are excellent. We know ours are crap.

    Are our crap negotiators going to out there and get better deals for the UK only than the EU excellent negotiators got for the EU including the UK?

    Yes. The USA is considerably bigger than the entire EU27 put together. Why is it we in the EU don't have a deal with them but Australia do?
    The US had hardly any free trade deals.
    Just with successful independent countries like Australia, South Korea and Singapore. Ie precisely the countries we should be acting like with a free trade mentality outside of the EU.
    The total population of the countries the US has free trade deals with is tiny. It is - simply - not a very pro-free trade country.
    Isn't it really easy to get a trade deal with the US if you simply sign up to their boiler plate one which gives the US all the benefits? I'd guess with most countries a trade deal is very easy to get, if you aren't fussed about it actually getting concessions to aid your own trade and are willing to give them whatever they want. I was a bit worried that the Fantastic Dr Fox might be tempted to go around the world signing anything put in front of him.
    The best trade deal that is ready made for us is the Trans Pacific Partnership. Some of the signatories have already asked us to join, Canada, Japan and Australia have already vetted it to be good for various advanced economies, and the crap the US put in it was cut out after Trump's tantrum. Once that is done we can negotiate as a bloc with the USA trying to reenter good relations with the world post-Trump.

    All possible under this great deal. Impossible with a hard left Corbyn government trying to build socialism in one country in the midst of an economic crash.
    How can we do such a deal if we are in a CU with the EU?
    Same principles as behind Vote Leave's proposition that by Leaving we'd have all the benefits of the Single Market without any of the costs if we left.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,746
    edited November 2018
    Pulpstar said:

    Theo said:

    All possible under this great deal. Impossible with a hard left Corbyn government trying to build socialism in one country in the midst of an economic crash.

    Are you posting from CCHQ?
    The IMF reckons we're due for an upgrade if May's deal passes.
    The IMF isn't a ratings agency, and I think the quote your referring to has been misinterpreted.

    https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1062731733890723840
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127

    Ominous.

    Graham Brady has called an unscheduled 1922 meeting at the exact time May is speaking.

    womp womp

    https://twitter.com/rosskempsell/status/1062740461943734272

    Someone convince me this doesn’t mean the letters have gone in..
  • Foxy said:


    From the same article:

    "Under the EU rules, the UK already has and always has possessed the power to alter the way quota is allocated, and if it wished could make more of the quota available to smaller vessels. Successive governments have declined to do so, partly because of the complexity of changing the allocations, which might face legal challenges from the owners of big vessels, but also out of free-market ideology."

    Yes, it's another example of successive governments choosing to do something unpopular and allowing/encouraging people to blame the EU for it.

    At one point I had hoped that a benefit of Brexit would be that the country would have to take responsibility for its own decisions, but as the negotiations have progressed it has become plain that blaming the EU will remain a popular option for British politicians for some time to come.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    Just the typical intemperate language I'd expect from traitorous Leavers.

    https://twitter.com/tomhfh/status/1062744202428198913

    They're delusional zealots who would soil themselves in a real battle. Paper warriors who would sacrifice country and party for their virginal masturbatory pre-Suez Britain fantasies.
  • AmpfieldAndyAmpfieldAndy Posts: 1,445
    edited November 2018
    I think Tim must have lost the plot if he’s saying this. This is not going to make the UK an attractive investment proposition nor will it negate the plans of any businesses planning to leave. We are paying a vast sum to still allow Brussels to control our trading laws and without any trade deal at all. It raises huge constitutional issues with regard to both NI and Scotland. Sadly, Tony Blair was right on the money when he said May’s deal satisfies no one other than those desperate for any deal - like May.
  • I have to say I didn't expect the first three weeks of gardening leave to be this exciting.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    edited November 2018
    If it is Brady announcing "the letters", then doing it at the EXACT SAME TIME as May is pleading for her party's support?

    That is, frankly, weapons grade shade and I love him for it.
  • Mortimer said:

    Ominous.

    Graham Brady has called an unscheduled 1922 meeting at the exact time May is speaking.

    womp womp

    https://twitter.com/rosskempsell/status/1062740461943734272

    Someone convince me this doesn’t mean the letters have gone in..
    Nothing has changed! Nothing has changed!
  • Blair this afternoon saying a second referendum will unite the Country

    Delusional
  • TheoTheo Posts: 325

    Just the typical intemperate language I'd expect from traitorous Leavers.

    https://twitter.com/tomhfh/status/1062744202428198913

    It is completely mental. They get control of immigration. We exit the hated ECJ. We get to control our entire service industry. We do this while maintaining JIT supply chains. And they will die in a ditch over it because some widgets in Northern Ireland will have to follow German standards when they will be mainly exported to the Eurozone anyway.

    And the Remainers are just as bad on the other side. The worst aspects of British culture, that constant negativity and reasons why everything is awful, is going to screw us. Imagine if this had been what Pitt the Younger had faced in the peace after Waterloo. Or if Churchill had to deal with this post-Yalta.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,469

    Blair this afternoon saying a second referendum will unite the Country

    Delusional

    What a bloke.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    matt said:

    Just the typical intemperate language I'd expect from traitorous Leavers.

    https://twitter.com/tomhfh/status/1062744202428198913

    They're delusional zealots who would soil themselves in a real battle. Paper warriors who would sacrifice country and party for their virginal masturbatory pre-Suez Britain fantasies.
    Its going to be great fun once the deal is done and dusted .
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,904
    edited November 2018
    https://youtu.be/q8M7XdY2bXE

    What's about to happen to Theresa May
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    Blair this afternoon saying a second referendum will unite the Country

    Delusional

    Idiot.

    I think it's fairly clear nobody is any mood for unity. Everyone is itching for a scrap.

    Grab your beaters, son. We're going bully-ramming.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    edited November 2018

    If it is Brady announcing "the letters", then doing it at the EXACT SAME TIME as May is pleading for her party's support?

    That is, frankly, weapons grade shade and I love him for it.

    I don't think Brady would do that.*

    *He hopes, having somehow left a red £200 out on May going this year. Besides she probably wins the VONC. Best to get it out the way before the voting starts maybe !
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,746
    Theo said:

    It is completely mental. They get control of immigration. We exit the hated ECJ. We get to control our entire service industry. We do this while maintaining JIT supply chains.

    When do we get any of that? Not during transition, and the future relationship hasn't been negotiated yet. You are basing all of your talking points on the backstop which is only there to guarantee no hard border in Northern Ireland.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Foxy said:


    From the same article:

    "Under the EU rules, the UK already has and always has possessed the power to alter the way quota is allocated, and if it wished could make more of the quota available to smaller vessels. Successive governments have declined to do so, partly because of the complexity of changing the allocations, which might face legal challenges from the owners of big vessels, but also out of free-market ideology."

    Blimey, not using the tools we had - just like immigration !
    This is the normal UK problem. The city's needs to trade things such as quotas trumps the needs of communities such as Hull to be able to use their resources to create local jobs and wealth. Brexit will not help if it leaves people such as JRM in charge.


  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    Theo said:

    Just the typical intemperate language I'd expect from traitorous Leavers.

    https://twitter.com/tomhfh/status/1062744202428198913

    It is completely mental. They get control of immigration. We exit the hated ECJ. We get to control our entire service industry. We do this while maintaining JIT supply chains. And they will die in a ditch over it because some widgets in Northern Ireland will have to follow German standards when they will be mainly exported to the Eurozone anyway.

    And the Remainers are just as bad on the other side. The worst aspects of British culture, that constant negativity and reasons why everything is awful, is going to screw us. Imagine if this had been what Pitt the Younger had faced in the peace after Waterloo. Or if Churchill had to deal with this post-Yalta.
    :+1::+1::+1:
  • Just the typical intemperate language I'd expect from traitorous Leavers.

    https://twitter.com/tomhfh/status/1062744202428198913

    Again. If these people feel so strongly about the Conservative Party policy then they should resign the whip. Or stay and continue to give it their tacit consent.
  • Just imagine if it turns out the 48th letter to Sir Graham Brady was from Jo Johnson
  • Just imagine if it turns out the 48th letter to Sir Graham Brady was from Jo Johnson

    There is no such thing as the 48th letter. It's a consensus process.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Pulpstar said:

    Foxy said:


    From the same article:

    "Under the EU rules, the UK already has and always has possessed the power to alter the way quota is allocated, and if it wished could make more of the quota available to smaller vessels. Successive governments have declined to do so, partly because of the complexity of changing the allocations, which might face legal challenges from the owners of big vessels, but also out of free-market ideology."

    Blimey, not using the tools we had - just like immigration !
    "There's no place like home! There's no place like home!"
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414

    Blair this afternoon saying a second referendum will unite the Country

    Delusional

    Unite us in mutual bitterness, enmity and loathing, for sure.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    timmo said:

    There is talk on the wires of the DUP pulling out of the confidence and supply deal they are currently in with the Government.
    Whips have told all MPs to not go on unnecessary journeys away from the UK

    We should be on amber alert for a GE as a result of this. There was a tweet earlier that the No 10 spokesman couldn't confirm whether the Con-DUP C&S arrangement was operational. If the DUP abstain on a VoNC, I reckon the Tories win 315-312 if everyone turns up, the Dep Speakers don't vote, everyone votes according to party whip, the (other) opposition parties all vote against, the MPs who are suspended from or resigned their whip vote with their parent party, and Sinn Fein stay away. Not all of those are safe assumptions and three votes in over 600 is extremely tight. Obviously, if the DUP vote against, it's game over.

    However, the timetable for a GE would be horrible. I reckon it'd look something like:

    Today: cabinet signs of text of deal.
    25 Nov: EU summit signs off deal.
    27 Nov: HoC votes down deal.
    29 Nov: HoC passes VoNC in govt.
    13 Dec: Two-week period lapses; no new govt. Proclamation of election delayed until new Year. Merry Christmas.
    Early Jan: parliament dissolved
    31 Jan: General election
    There have to be 5 weeks separating Dissolution and Polling Day , so an early January Dissolution would imply Polling Day being 7th or 14th February.
  • In reference to Prince Charles and Jeremy Corbyn:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHmFMVGJs4s
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Pulpstar said:

    Theo said:

    Just the typical intemperate language I'd expect from traitorous Leavers.

    https://twitter.com/tomhfh/status/1062744202428198913

    It is completely mental. They get control of immigration. We exit the hated ECJ. We get to control our entire service industry. We do this while maintaining JIT supply chains. And they will die in a ditch over it because some widgets in Northern Ireland will have to follow German standards when they will be mainly exported to the Eurozone anyway.

    And the Remainers are just as bad on the other side. The worst aspects of British culture, that constant negativity and reasons why everything is awful, is going to screw us. Imagine if this had been what Pitt the Younger had faced in the peace after Waterloo. Or if Churchill had to deal with this post-Yalta.
    :+1::+1::+1:
    Ditto
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    Just imagine if it turns out the 48th letter to Sir Graham Brady was from Jo Johnson

    Sending the letters in just as May completes one of the trickiest deals in UK history. It'd be the act of absolute filth.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Pulpstar said:

    Just imagine if it turns out the 48th letter to Sir Graham Brady was from Jo Johnson

    Sending the letters in just as May completes one of the trickiest deals in UK history. It'd be the act of absolute filth.
    ^botches
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389
    Pulpstar said:

    Just imagine if it turns out the 48th letter to Sir Graham Brady was from Jo Johnson

    Sending the letters in just as May completes one of the trickiest deals in UK history. It'd be the act of absolute filth.
    We are discussing the Parliamentary Conservative Party.

    There's no more wretched hive of scum and villainy in the universe.
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    rpjs said:

    Sky

    TM to make a statement outside no 10 at 5.00pm

    Perhaps another GE or Referendum?
    “I’ve spoken to cabinet and nobody agrees on anything. I’ve had to put up with this bloody bickering for 2 years and I can’t stand it anymore, I’m off - good luck trying to do any better.”?
    Didn't one of the German princes when forced to abdicate in 1918 say something like "good luck trying to sort this crap out by yourselves"?
    Or as good King Charles prophetically put it to his captors: "You have done your work, boys, and may go play, unless you will fall out among yourselves"
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    edited November 2018
    George Osborne is a messy bitch who lives to shit-stir and cause drama:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dr-iXbRXQAMHx5y.jpg

    And that's why I will always love him.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Just imagine if it turns out the 48th letter to Sir Graham Brady was from Jo Johnson

    Sending the letters in just as May completes one of the trickiest deals in UK history. It'd be the act of absolute filth.
    It's only a deal if it has the agreement of the cabinet (and it doesn't) or the government (and it doesn't) or Parliament (and it doesn't).

    Apart from that it's spot on.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628

    Blair this afternoon saying a second referendum will unite the Country

    Delusional

    Unite it in saying "Yes, we want you back in Europe, Tony - on trial in The Hague...."
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    RIP Plato. She certainly had presence on this site.
  • Down 21% today and 80% so far
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,300
    Don't buy gift cards.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Just imagine if it turns out the 48th letter to Sir Graham Brady was from Jo Johnson

    Sending the letters in just as May completes one of the trickiest deals in UK history. It'd be the act of absolute filth.
    Just listened to Bone and Doughty arguing from the opposite extremes and just makes you despair
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,565

    Blair this afternoon saying a second referendum will unite the Country

    Delusional

    I have been pondering this. I reckon it's not the act f having a further referendum that may unite, it's the outcome. 52-48 either way won't settle it from here (particularly with the fraudulent spending by Vote Leave and the bus still as divisive as ever.)

    But if it's 60-40 either way I reckon that might just get to a place where it's clear enough to settle it. Frankly I'd rather a clear result than a knife-edge, even if it's not what I want personally. Need an exit hatch and I'm nervous that we'll be bickering over this for decades. A terms referendum with a clear result might be what it takes.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2018
    I was in Debenhams in a big city recently and there were more staff than customers. It was rather a sad sight. I remember when those types of department stores were always busy, not that long ago.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Nigelb said:

    Don't buy gift cards.
    Don't buy.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Scott_P said:
    It would appear that the Cabinet are given far too little time to understand the document(s), which will no doubt be full of language designed to be opaque to casual readers.

    Were I an Cabinet I would find it hard to support the document on the basis that I had insufficient time to understand the contents.

    I could see the Cabinet meeting not ending on time, which could scupper the 5.00pm photo op outside No 10.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238

    Blair this afternoon saying a second referendum will unite the Country

    Delusional

    A cynic would say his appearance on TV calling for a "people's vote"can only strengthen Theresa May.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115

    Blair this afternoon saying a second referendum will unite the Country

    Delusional

    A cynic would say his appearance on TV calling for a "people's vote"can only strengthen Theresa May.
    Blair and Brown have always been a massive EU referendum fans.
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414

    Down 21% today and 80% so far
    This is the curse of the Rexes.

    Few weeks ago Her Majesty and I were in Canterbury pondering whether to get a coffee in Patisserie Valerie. We decided not to. Next thing you know Pat Val is all over over the news for the wrong reasons and the shares dive.

    Yesterday we were in Canterbury considering whether to go to Debenhams. Decided against it, Today...

    As a service to any PBers with shares in retail I will let you know next time we plan to visit Canterbury!
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Nigelb said:

    Don't buy gift cards.
    Nowt wrong with old fashioned cash!
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Shame. I'm rather partial to Debenhams lingerie.
  • tpfkar said:

    Blair this afternoon saying a second referendum will unite the Country

    Delusional

    I have been pondering this. I reckon it's not the act f having a further referendum that may unite, it's the outcome. 52-48 either way won't settle it from here (particularly with the fraudulent spending by Vote Leave and the bus still as divisive as ever.)

    But if it's 60-40 either way I reckon that might just get to a place where it's clear enough to settle it. Frankly I'd rather a clear result than a knife-edge, even if it's not what I want personally. Need an exit hatch and I'm nervous that we'll be bickering over this for decades. A terms referendum with a clear result might be what it takes.
    Yes, that's right. We can only hope for a decisive result, but any result would at least be related to fixed plans.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    Down 21% today and 80% so far
    This is the curse of the Rexes.

    Few weeks ago Her Majesty and I were in Canterbury pondering whether to get a coffee in Patisserie Valerie. We decided not to. Next thing you know Pat Val is all over over the news for the wrong reasons and the shares dive.

    Yesterday we were in Canterbury considering whether to go to Debenhams. Decided against it, Today...

    As a service to any PBers with shares in retail I will let you know next time we plan to visit Canterbury!
    My favourite restaurant in the all the world is in Canterbury. Please don't ever decide not to go to The Goods Shed.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,700
    edited November 2018

    Down 21% today and 80% so far
    This is the curse of the Rexes.

    Few weeks ago Her Majesty and I were in Canterbury pondering whether to get a coffee in Patisserie Valerie. We decided not to. Next thing you know Pat Val is all over over the news for the wrong reasons and the shares dive.

    Yesterday we were in Canterbury considering whether to go to Debenhams. Decided against it, Today...

    As a service to any PBers with shares in retail I will let you know next time we plan to visit Canterbury!
    Please don't decide not to go to Selfridges, Hugo Boss, Paul Smith, and Hawkes & Curtis or I'll be struggling to buy clothes.
  • Mr. Fenster, indeed.

    Mr. Labour, I agree. Why some people think doing away with physical money is a good idea is beyond me.

    I wonder what the chances are of Leave/Remain supporters uniting in the Commons to defeat May's deal, and go to a No Deal/Remain referendum.
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    rpjs said:

    Down 21% today and 80% so far
    This is the curse of the Rexes.

    Few weeks ago Her Majesty and I were in Canterbury pondering whether to get a coffee in Patisserie Valerie. We decided not to. Next thing you know Pat Val is all over over the news for the wrong reasons and the shares dive.

    Yesterday we were in Canterbury considering whether to go to Debenhams. Decided against it, Today...

    As a service to any PBers with shares in retail I will let you know next time we plan to visit Canterbury!
    My favourite restaurant in the all the world is in Canterbury. Please don't ever decide not to go to The Goods Shed.
    Oh shit.... sorry....

    Mind you last time was a few weeks ago, so they may have got away with it!
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    Down 21% today and 80% so far
    This is the curse of the Rexes.

    Few weeks ago Her Majesty and I were in Canterbury pondering whether to get a coffee in Patisserie Valerie. We decided not to. Next thing you know Pat Val is all over over the news for the wrong reasons and the shares dive.

    Yesterday we were in Canterbury considering whether to go to Debenhams. Decided against it, Today...

    As a service to any PBers with shares in retail I will let you know next time we plan to visit Canterbury!
    Please don't decide not to go to Selfridges, Hugo Boss, Paul Smith, and Hawkes & Curtis.
    An cut-out-and-keep guide to who is and isn't fucked in retail:

    Isn't: Amazon
    Is: the rest
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,746

    Blair this afternoon saying a second referendum will unite the Country

    Delusional

    A cynic would say his appearance on TV calling for a "people's vote"can only strengthen Theresa May.
    Indirectly, because it strengthens Corbyn's resolve not to do what Blair wants, thereby backing himself into a corner.
  • TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,683
    Pulpstar said:

    Just imagine if it turns out the 48th letter to Sir Graham Brady was from Jo Johnson

    Sending the letters in just as May completes one of the trickiest deals in UK history. It'd be the act of absolute filth.
    Unless she herself instructed the letters to be sent in order to demonstrate that there isn't an alternative that a majority could agree on. It would be a brave move (and, for that reason, I think unlikely) but it would clear the air relatively quickly. It would also enable her to be seen as unreasonably beleaguered despite having done her best - it's one way of beginning to mobilise support for her deal in the wider country.

    Does anyone think that there will be a public petition to support the deal....?
  • TheoTheo Posts: 325

    Theo said:

    It is completely mental. They get control of immigration. We exit the hated ECJ. We get to control our entire service industry. We do this while maintaining JIT supply chains.

    When do we get any of that? Not during transition, and the future relationship hasn't been negotiated yet. You are basing all of your talking points on the backstop which is only there to guarantee no hard border in Northern Ireland.
    We get all of it under the agreements we have agreed to date. If a separate agreement on future relationship changes that, by all means block that. But its madness to do right now.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    edited November 2018
    Perhaps May will say the cabinet has agreement, but she wishes to test herself in a confidence vote before the heavy lifting in terms of voting gets going.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    TudorRose said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just imagine if it turns out the 48th letter to Sir Graham Brady was from Jo Johnson

    Sending the letters in just as May completes one of the trickiest deals in UK history. It'd be the act of absolute filth.
    Unless she herself instructed the letters to be sent in order to demonstrate that there isn't an alternative that a majority could agree on. It would be a brave move (and, for that reason, I think unlikely) but it would clear the air relatively quickly. It would also enable her to be seen as unreasonably beleaguered despite having done her best - it's one way of beginning to mobilise support for her deal in the wider country.

    Does anyone think that there will be a public petition to support the deal....?
    If there is a petition there will be at least one other (Remain, Dump the Deal or No Deal)
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    GIN1138 said:

    Sky reporting Penny Mordaunt wanting a free vote

    As they're all still locked in the Cabinet how on earth does anyone know that? :D
    GIN, you never heard of text or twitter, and Good evening as well
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    philiph said:

    TudorRose said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just imagine if it turns out the 48th letter to Sir Graham Brady was from Jo Johnson

    Sending the letters in just as May completes one of the trickiest deals in UK history. It'd be the act of absolute filth.
    Unless she herself instructed the letters to be sent in order to demonstrate that there isn't an alternative that a majority could agree on. It would be a brave move (and, for that reason, I think unlikely) but it would clear the air relatively quickly. It would also enable her to be seen as unreasonably beleaguered despite having done her best - it's one way of beginning to mobilise support for her deal in the wider country.

    Does anyone think that there will be a public petition to support the deal....?
    If there is a petition there will be at least one other (Remain, Dump the Deal or No Deal)

    Hold a referendum on the final Brexit deal

    145,117 signatures, now closed
    Leave the EU immediately

    141,837 signatures, now closed
    Parliament's vote on the Brexit deal must include an option to remain in the EU.

    113,614 signatures, now closed
    If there is no agreement to leave the EU then brexit must be stopped

    109,089 signatures
    Ensure that the U.K. leaves the EU Single Market & Customs Union.

    81,192 signatures, now closed
  • TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,683
    philiph said:

    TudorRose said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just imagine if it turns out the 48th letter to Sir Graham Brady was from Jo Johnson

    Sending the letters in just as May completes one of the trickiest deals in UK history. It'd be the act of absolute filth.
    Unless she herself instructed the letters to be sent in order to demonstrate that there isn't an alternative that a majority could agree on. It would be a brave move (and, for that reason, I think unlikely) but it would clear the air relatively quickly. It would also enable her to be seen as unreasonably beleaguered despite having done her best - it's one way of beginning to mobilise support for her deal in the wider country.

    Does anyone think that there will be a public petition to support the deal....?
    If there is a petition there will be at least one other (Remain, Dump the Deal or No Deal)
    It might be a way of saving us from having a Ref2!
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just imagine if it turns out the 48th letter to Sir Graham Brady was from Jo Johnson

    Sending the letters in just as May completes one of the trickiest deals in UK history. It'd be the act of absolute filth.
    We are discussing the Parliamentary Conservative Party.

    There's no more wretched hive of scum and villainy in the universe.
    Except there's a tie with the SNP/LD/Lab/DUP/SF/.....
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2018
    FPT:
    Gadfly said:

    News regarding Plato. Following the recent discussion here regarding Plato I sent her an email enquiring after her health. I have just received a reply from her brother informing me that Phillippa died at home of natural causes aged 51 on 29th June. She had apparently been unwell for some time, but had refused to see a doctor. Her brother tells me what we all knew - Plato lived for scrapping and discussions on forums such as this place.

    RIP Plato / Phillippa.
  • TonyTony Posts: 159
    Personally I think this is a blinding deal and Robbins is to be congratulated , but fully expect it to fail to pass the commons due to the Unionist angle in both NI and Scotland.

    He's managed to get tariff free FULL access to the Single market with no payments and no FOM. ( unless there's something lurking in the details)

    Completely breaking the EU's sacred 4 freedoms, all by turning the Northern Ireland backstop into a massive trojan horse.

    He's turned the 'we must have a backstop' into ok it'll mean the UK being inside the single market in the event of no agreed deal.

    One day someone will notice the elegance of the maneuver.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389
    felix said:

    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just imagine if it turns out the 48th letter to Sir Graham Brady was from Jo Johnson

    Sending the letters in just as May completes one of the trickiest deals in UK history. It'd be the act of absolute filth.
    We are discussing the Parliamentary Conservative Party.

    There's no more wretched hive of scum and villainy in the universe.
    Except there's a tie with the SNP/LD/Lab/DUP/SF/.....
    That is so.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    Mortimer said:

    Ominous.

    Graham Brady has called an unscheduled 1922 meeting at the exact time May is speaking.

    womp womp

    https://twitter.com/rosskempsell/status/1062740461943734272

    Someone convince me this doesn’t mean the letters have gone in..
    Ross Kempsall failed to mention that it is the REGULAR wednesday meeting, the big tease.

    https://twitter.com/scot_85/status/1062746332421652482
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    malcolmg said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Sky reporting Penny Mordaunt wanting a free vote

    As they're all still locked in the Cabinet how on earth does anyone know that? :D
    GIN, you never heard of text or twitter, and Good evening as well
    Don't they get relieved of their mobile phones at the door?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,746
    I don't think Labour's soundbite about a "botched deal" will resonate. It's clearly not a botched deal - it's what Brexit is.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Pulpstar said:

    Perhaps May will say the cabinet has agreement, but she wishes to test herself in a confidence vote before the heavy lifting in terms of voting gets going.

    Could be Brady has the letters.
    I understand that he checks to see if they want withdraw or have had a change of mind. As the regulations have (I believe) some fluidity, possibly on interview with the senders finds they were sent in at the behest of others, not their own volition, therefore he is excluding them from the total. As the PM is unable to force a VONC herself, he could rule she cannot do it by proxy.

    There are numerous possibilities.

    It could be he wishes to tell the PCP that his postman is on a sabbatical and will not be delivering mail to him until January.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,469

    malcolmg said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Sky reporting Penny Mordaunt wanting a free vote

    As they're all still locked in the Cabinet how on earth does anyone know that? :D
    GIN, you never heard of text or twitter, and Good evening as well
    Don't they get relieved of their mobile phones at the door?
    Apple Watch :wink:
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    Sean_F said:

    felix said:

    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just imagine if it turns out the 48th letter to Sir Graham Brady was from Jo Johnson

    Sending the letters in just as May completes one of the trickiest deals in UK history. It'd be the act of absolute filth.
    We are discussing the Parliamentary Conservative Party.

    There's no more wretched hive of scum and villainy in the universe.
    Except there's a tie with the SNP/LD/Lab/DUP/SF/.....
    That is so.
    I expect Uncle Vince will be given his marching orders soon enough. He's proved spectacularly useless as a leader.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Perhaps May will say the cabinet has agreement, but she wishes to test herself in a confidence vote before the heavy lifting in terms of voting gets going.

    I worry for May if that’s the case given her track record when calling snap votes...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    Pulpstar said:

    Perhaps May will say the cabinet has agreement, but she wishes to test herself in a confidence vote before the heavy lifting in terms of voting gets going.

    I worry for May if that’s the case given her track record when calling snap votes...
    It's a regular meeting ! Might be a bit of table banging for May if she's lucky.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    Ominous.

    Graham Brady has called an unscheduled 1922 meeting at the exact time May is speaking.

    womp womp

    https://twitter.com/rosskempsell/status/1062740461943734272

    Someone convince me this doesn’t mean the letters have gone in..
    Ross Kempsall failed to mention that it is the REGULAR wednesday meeting, the big tease.

    https://twitter.com/scot_85/status/1062746332421652482
    Ah, that’s a relief.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    malcolmg said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Sky reporting Penny Mordaunt wanting a free vote

    As they're all still locked in the Cabinet how on earth does anyone know that? :D
    GIN, you never heard of text or twitter, and Good evening as well
    No. 10 need to invest in a good cellphone jammer.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    Ominous.

    Graham Brady has called an unscheduled 1922 meeting at the exact time May is speaking.

    womp womp

    https://twitter.com/rosskempsell/status/1062740461943734272

    Someone convince me this doesn’t mean the letters have gone in..
    Ross Kempsall failed to mention that it is the REGULAR wednesday meeting, the big tease.

    https://twitter.com/scot_85/status/1062746332421652482
    Ah, that’s a relief.
    Well something might happen, but its more likely some tea, biscuits and some ERG venting their spleen at May.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,469
    Can’t believe people can be arsed to go to Downing St after work to protest for Brexit!
  • GIN1138 said:

    Sky reporting Penny Mordaunt wanting a free vote

    As they're all still locked in the Cabinet how on earth does anyone know that? :D
    Toilet break + mobile phone. That's the problem with a five-hour cabinet: you do have to allow the odd comfort break.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    GIN1138 said:

    Sky reporting Penny Mordaunt wanting a free vote

    As they're all still locked in the Cabinet how on earth does anyone know that? :D
    Toilet break + mobile phone. That's the problem with a five-hour cabinet: you do have to allow the odd comfort break.
    A Faraday cage round the toilet wouldn't be beyond the wit of man, surely ?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    I don't think Labour's soundbite about a "botched deal" will resonate. It's clearly not a botched deal - it's what Brexit is.

    By the sound of it, the deal is as good as Brexit gets - not as good as remaining, but if we have to leave, not a bad outcome. The fact that the headbangers have no pragmatism, realism or common sense and cannot see this is hardly to their credit.
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414

    GIN1138 said:

    Sky reporting Penny Mordaunt wanting a free vote

    As they're all still locked in the Cabinet how on earth does anyone know that? :D
    Toilet break + mobile phone. That's the problem with a five-hour cabinet: you do have to allow the odd comfort break.
    Mrs May should learn from the civil servants I used to have negotiate with at the LCD (as it then when was). Give everyone lots of coffee and no comfort breaks. Spin the proceedings out for as long as you can and they'll agree to anything you want.
  • If you ever wonder what 72 virgins look like...
  • Gosh, just caught up with the Plato news. RIP - that's no age at all.
This discussion has been closed.