Everyone, on all sides of the house and all parts of the Brexit spectrum, has reason to be unhappy about this. Even so, there is a piquant irony in seeing committed Brexiteers complaining that if this is the deal, it’s worse than remaining a full member of the EU. Well, yes, that’s what some people suggested in the spring of 2016 too. Back then, however, life was all sunshine and roses and dreams were dreamt of gambolling with unicorns in the sweet-flowering meadows of cake-filled national liberation.
Oddly, it hasn’t quite worked out like that.
Except that's not true. May has negotiated 70% of the benefits of the EU with 90% of the benefits of leaving.
If you view the benefits of the EU as >>> the benefits of leaving then your equation would leave you with less overall.
This was my point earlier about people measuring what is good or bad using different scales. It's why there is so much mutual incomprehension in the debate.
Except that's not true. May has negotiated 70% of the benefits of the EU with 90% of the benefits of leaving.
In particular the benefit of not having to bother having any MEPs or Commissioners anymore, and leaving it up to others to deal with. It was always such a hassle...
In particular the benefit of not having to accept every Romanian beggar, Latvian murderer or Syrian "refugee" that gets a passport and fancies a taxpayer funded London flat.
Or the benefit of not wasting billions each year on French and Polish farmers.
Or the benefit of controlling our own service sectors, so we are not at the mercy of France's banking rulebook.
Or the benefit of signing our own trade deals with the rest of the world.
Did those who voted Brexit really believe that the EU would just roll over and make Brexit as easy as possible? May has achieved a deal which will enable Brexit. It was incredibly difficult to get this far, but at least we will be leaving the EU now if the deal is passed. How will voting it down help matters. The EU will not suddenly change everything. We will either not leave or leave with No Deal. How can people have such unrealistic expectations of this process?
Also heard today that CCHQ fear if an election were to come about the Tories could go down to as low as 4 seats in London
I've got a feeling we'll see a SLAB-type fate awaiting whatever ruins of the Conservative Party is left from this cluster **** across England whenever the next election is held...
Where do all the Tory voters go?
To LAB? There’s still a lot of fear of Uncle Jez.
To LD? Perhaps the remainian rump might, I guess, but I can’t see hordes moving that way,
To UKIP? In their current state?!
They’re currently tied or just ahead in the polls. I’m not in any doubt that they could have a bad election but suggesting absolute decimation is a bit hyperbolic at this stage.
Also heard today that CCHQ fear if an election were to come about the Tories could go down to as low as 4 seats in London
I've got a feeling we'll see a SLAB-type fate awaiting whatever ruins of the Conservative Party is left from this cluster **** across England whenever the next election is held...
Where do all the Tory voters go?
They sit on their hands and stay at home. While Labour voters are VERY motivated to turn out for Jezza as always...
Nice piece, Nick. I agree (what do I know about the inner workings of a Labour MP's mind...) and we discussed this this morning; it's presumably the job of the opposition to oppose.
How would you have voted, and why?
Well, to be fair I'd read the thing first - yes, 500 pages or whatever. But I'd expect to vote no. I flatly do not believe that the alternative is chaos. I don't care about the Irish Sea stuff, but it's solved by permanent customs union anyway. Essentially I see the deal as a tactical patchwork aimed at Tory MPs, and not worth saving.
But I'm a 2nd vote man.
Thanks.
Interesting about a second vote, I really don't think it would be won easily if at all by Remain. Brits can be stubborn at times and I believe that would be one of those times. If they had nothing to lose and hence voted Leave the first time, I don't see how they would all of a sudden (two years later) have something now to lose and side with the global elite this time.
But that's another discussion...
I think it is only worth Remain having another referendum if they can win convincingly, e.g., better than 55 per cent to 45 per cent .
A narrow victory for Remain, and an attempt to undo the first referendum result, would ensure that we have decades of quarrelling.
BINO seems a sensible compromise to me. The country is split, and the result is a fair reflection of the mood of the country.
Also heard today that CCHQ fear if an election were to come about the Tories could go down to as low as 4 seats in London
I've got a feeling we'll see a SLAB-type fate awaiting whatever ruins of the Conservative Party is left from this cluster **** across England whenever the next election is held...
This is so stupid. The Conservatives have collapsed in London because of huge demographic change and people not being able to afford homes and families. Do you know what drives that? Vast uncontrollable immigration.
Oh, come on.
Immigration is believed to have put house prices up by 21% in the last 25 years. Sure.
Except that house prices have actually increased by 320% in this period. So immigration is a minor factor.
And looking into the future: "In 2008, Professor Stephen Nickell, then-head of the NHPAU, said that with projected housebuilding and immigration rates, the average house price would rise from 7 times the average income, to 10 times the average income over the period 2006 to 2026. However, if net migration was reduced to zero, the average house price would only increase to nine times the average income over the same period."
Well, that's ok then. If a house is only nine times the average income, I'll buy two.
Except that's not true. May has negotiated 70% of the benefits of the EU with 90% of the benefits of leaving.
In particular the benefit of not having to bother having any MEPs or Commissioners anymore, and leaving it up to others to deal with. It was always such a hassle...
Well we've been told for years that we have no influence, and the Germans decide everything anyway.
Also heard today that CCHQ fear if an election were to come about the Tories could go down to as low as 4 seats in London
I've got a feeling we'll see a SLAB-type fate awaiting whatever ruins of the Conservative Party is left from this cluster **** across England whenever the next election is held...
Where do all the Tory voters go?
To LAB? There’s still a lot of fear of Uncle Jez.
To LD? Perhaps the remainian rump might, I guess, but I can’t see hordes moving that way,
To UKIP? In their current state?!
They’re currently tied or just ahead in the polls. I’m not in any doubt that they could have a bad election but suggesting absolute decimation is a bit hyperbolic at this stage.
A big swing to the Can't Be Arsed Party.....
So they're SO motivated to then not vote for Torys
But can't be arsed otherwise.
Hint: The vast majority of people aren't hugely impassioned about Brexit either way...
Nice piece, Nick. I agree (what do I know about the inner workings of a Labour MP's mind...) and we discussed this this morning; it's presumably the job of the opposition to oppose.
How would you have voted, and why?
Well, to be fair I'd read the thing first - yes, 500 pages or whatever. But I'd expect to vote no. I flatly do not believe that the alternative is chaos. I don't care about the Irish Sea stuff, but it's solved by permanent customs union anyway. Essentially I see the deal as a tactical patchwork aimed at Tory MPs, and not worth saving.
But I'm a 2nd vote man.
Thanks.
Interesting about a second vote, I really don't think it would be won easily if at all by Remain. Brits can be stubborn at times and I believe that would be one of those times. If they had nothing to lose and hence voted Leave the first time, I don't see how they would all of a sudden (two years later) have something now to lose and side with the global elite this time.
But that's another discussion...
I think it is only worth Remain having another referendum if they can win convincingly, e.g., better than 55 per cent to 45 per cent .
A narrow victory for Remain, and an attempt to undo the first referendum result, would ensure that we have decades of quarrelling.
BINO seems a sensible compromise to me. The country is split, and the result is a fair reflection of the mood of the country.
Better to quarrel with the status quo intact than on a sinking ship.
Also heard today that CCHQ fear if an election were to come about the Tories could go down to as low as 4 seats in London
I've got a feeling we'll see a SLAB-type fate awaiting whatever ruins of the Conservative Party is left from this cluster **** across England whenever the next election is held...
Where do all the Tory voters go?
They sit on their hands and stay at home. While Labour voters are VERY motivated to turn out for Jezza as always...
Most Tory voters are pretty committed, They don't like the idea that Corbyn would be PM.
Off topic, just got this highly amusing text (I suspect I'm not first PBer to get one of these):
"Retired bookmakers require the services of people of honesty and integrity to assist us in placing *OUR MONEY* on specific horses that WILL WIN. We are not tipsters trying to sell you a service . *WE PAY YOU* NO OBLIGATION. For further information reply 'YES' Today. D & M Millbrook."
I'd be tempted if I hadn't already given it all to a Nigerian Prince...
Everyone, on all sides of the house and all parts of the Brexit spectrum, has reason to be unhappy about this. Even so, there is a piquant irony in seeing committed Brexiteers complaining that if this is the deal, it’s worse than remaining a full member of the EU. Well, yes, that’s what some people suggested in the spring of 2016 too. Back then, however, life was all sunshine and roses and dreams were dreamt of gambolling with unicorns in the sweet-flowering meadows of cake-filled national liberation.
Oddly, it hasn’t quite worked out like that.
Because a Remainer usurped Brexit.
Ah the treachery myth is being created. The moron class is alive and well, I see.
Just been informed by St.John, another PB old-timer, of the sad passing of Plato at such a relatively young age. I always found her to be a very intelligent, interesting and feisty poster who at one time was one of the most active on PB.com.Indeed some 5 years ago or thereabouts, she was voted Poster of the Year. Although seemingly not actively employed over recent years, it was clear that she had held senior positions in business, including telecoms iirc. Hopefully the likes of OGH, TSE, SeanT even will include their own tributes. After all, the success of PB.com was for a number of years due in no small part down to her participation on this site.
Agree. I believe Gadfly posted this news on the last thread. While she didn’t predict his win she was easily the first to spot the populist appeal of Trump and was roundly ridiculed for her prescience. A pity she felt she was no longer welcome as she enlivened many a dull thread. Be kinder.
Nice piece, Nick. I agree (what do I know about the inner workings of a Labour MP's mind...) and we discussed this this morning; it's presumably the job of the opposition to oppose.
How would you have voted, and why?
Well, to be fair I'd read the thing first - yes, 500 pages or whatever. But I'd expect to vote no. I flatly do not believe that the alternative is chaos. I don't care about the Irish Sea stuff, but it's solved by permanent customs union anyway. Essentially I see the deal as a tactical patchwork aimed at Tory MPs, and not worth saving.
But I'm a 2nd vote man.
Thanks.
Interesting about a second vote, I really don't think it would be won easily if at all by Remain. Brits can be stubborn at times and I believe that would be one of those times. If they had nothing to lose and hence voted Leave the first time, I don't see how they would all of a sudden (two years later) have something now to lose and side with the global elite this time.
But that's another discussion...
I think it is only worth Remain having another referendum if they can win convincingly, e.g., better than 55 per cent to 45 per cent .
A narrow victory for Remain, and an attempt to undo the first referendum result, would ensure that we have decades of quarrelling.
BINO seems a sensible compromise to me. The country is split, and the result is a fair reflection of the mood of the country.
Better to quarrel with the status quo intact than on a sinking ship.
First, Remain have to win the second referendum. That is not a racing certainty.
And second, to end the quarrel, Remain have to win big. That is extremely unlikely.
It is ludicrous to describe outside the EU as a sinking ship. The two most prosperous countries in Europe are outside the EU. Norway and Switzerland are not sinking ships.
Except that's not true. May has negotiated 70% of the benefits of the EU with 90% of the benefits of leaving.
In particular the benefit of not having to bother having any MEPs or Commissioners anymore, and leaving it up to others to deal with. It was always such a hassle...
In particular the benefit of not having to accept every Romanian beggar, Latvian murderer or Syrian "refugee" that gets a passport and fancies a taxpayer funded London flat.
Or the benefit of not wasting billions each year on French and Polish farmers.
Or the benefit of controlling our own service sectors, so we are not at the mercy of France's banking rulebook.
Or the benefit of signing our own trade deals with the rest of the world.
Also heard today that CCHQ fear if an election were to come about the Tories could go down to as low as 4 seats in London
I've got a feeling we'll see a SLAB-type fate awaiting whatever ruins of the Conservative Party is left from this cluster **** across England whenever the next election is held...
This is so stupid. The Conservatives have collapsed in London because of huge demographic change and people not being able to afford homes and families. Do you know what drives that? Vast uncontrollable immigration. Do you know what will control that? THIS DEAL.
Such angry certainty in the absence of facts.
Are you sure you aren't our Australian friend Archer?
Nice piece, Nick. I agree (what do I know about the inner workings of a Labour MP's mind...) and we discussed this this morning; it's presumably the job of the opposition to oppose.
How would you have voted, and why?
Well, to be fair I'd read the thing first - yes, 500 pages or whatever. But I'd expect to vote no. I flatly do not believe that the alternative is chaos. I don't care about the Irish Sea stuff, but it's solved by permanent customs union anyway. Essentially I see the deal as a tactical patchwork aimed at Tory MPs, and not worth saving.
But I'm a 2nd vote man.
Thanks.
Interesting about a second vote, I really don't think it would be won easily if at all by Remain. Brits can be stubborn at times and I believe that would be one of those times. If they had nothing to lose and hence voted Leave the first time, I don't see how they would all of a sudden (two years later) have something now to lose and side with the global elite this time.
But that's another discussion...
I think it is only worth Remain having another referendum if they can win convincingly, e.g., better than 55 per cent to 45 per cent .
A narrow victory for Remain, and an attempt to undo the first referendum result, would ensure that we have decades of quarrelling.
BINO seems a sensible compromise to me. The country is split, and the result is a fair reflection of the mood of the country.
Better to quarrel with the status quo intact than on a sinking ship.
First, Remain have to win the second referendum. That is not a racing certainty.
And second, to end the quarrel, Remain have to win big. That is extremely unlikely.
It is ludicrous to describe outside the EU as a sinking ship. The two most prosperous countries in Europe are outside the EU. Norway and Switzerland are not sinking ships.
I’d be happy with Switzerland arrangement but its not available. We know this! Norway does not solve NI issue.
All you’re doing is parroting the same debunked proposals that have been repeated for the last 2 years.
Everyone, on all sides of the house and all parts of the Brexit spectrum, has reason to be unhappy about this. Even so, there is a piquant irony in seeing committed Brexiteers complaining that if this is the deal, it’s worse than remaining a full member of the EU. Well, yes, that’s what some people suggested in the spring of 2016 too. Back then, however, life was all sunshine and roses and dreams were dreamt of gambolling with unicorns in the sweet-flowering meadows of cake-filled national liberation.
Oddly, it hasn’t quite worked out like that.
Because a Remainer usurped Brexit.
Ah the treachery myth is being created. The moron class is alive and well, I see.
How's it a myth it is there right before our eyes.
Had a Leaver been in charged and f###ed up the negotiations like Remainer May has you'd have a point.
Did those who voted Brexit really believe that the EU would just roll over and make Brexit as easy as possible? May has achieved a deal which will enable Brexit. It was incredibly difficult to get this far, but at least we will be leaving the EU now if the deal is passed. How will voting it down help matters. The EU will not suddenly change everything. We will either not leave or leave with No Deal. How can people have such unrealistic expectations of this process?
Well, being ignorant of the importance of the Dover-Calais trade route would be a start.
Nice piece, Nick. I agree (what do I know about the inner workings of a Labour MP's mind...) and we discussed this this morning; it's presumably the job of the opposition to oppose.
How would you have voted, and why?
Well, to be fair I'd read the thing first - yes, 500 pages or whatever. But I'd expect to vote no. I flatly do not believe that the alternative is chaos. I don't care about the Irish Sea stuff, but it's solved by permanent customs union anyway. Essentially I see the deal as a tactical patchwork aimed at Tory MPs, and not worth saving.
But I'm a 2nd vote man.
Thanks.
Interesting about a second vote, I really don't think it would be won easily if at all by Remain. Brits can be stubborn at times and I believe that would be one of those times. If they had nothing to lose and hence voted Leave the first time, I don't see how they would all of a sudden (two years later) have something now to lose and side with the global elite this time.
But that's another discussion...
I think it is only worth Remain having another referendum if they can win convincingly, e.g., better than 55 per cent to 45 per cent .
A narrow victory for Remain, and an attempt to undo the first referendum result, would ensure that we have decades of quarrelling.
BINO seems a sensible compromise to me. The country is split, and the result is a fair reflection of the mood of the country.
Better to quarrel with the status quo intact than on a sinking ship.
First, Remain have to win the second referendum. That is not a racing certainty.
And second, to end the quarrel, Remain have to win big. That is extremely unlikely.
It is ludicrous to describe outside the EU as a sinking ship. The two most prosperous countries in Europe are outside the EU. Norway and Switzerland are not sinking ships.
I’d be happy with Switzerland arrangement but its not available. We know this! Norway does not solve NI issue.
All you’re doing is parroting the same debunked proposals that have been repeated for the last 2 years.
Nice piece, Nick. I agree (what do I know about the inner workings of a Labour MP's mind...) and we discussed this this morning; it's presumably the job of the opposition to oppose.
How would you have voted, and why?
Well, to be fair I'd read the thing first - yes, 500 pages or whatever. But I'd expect to vote no. I flatly do not believe that the alternative is chaos. I don't care about the Irish Sea stuff, but it's solved by permanent customs union anyway. Essentially I see the deal as a tactical patchwork aimed at Tory MPs, and not worth saving.
But I'm a 2nd vote man.
Thanks.
Interesting about a second vote, I really don't think it would be won easily if at all by Remain. Brits can be stubborn at times and I believe that would be one of those times. If they had nothing to lose and hence voted Leave the first time, I don't see how they would all of a sudden (two years later) have something now to lose and side with the global elite this time.
But that's another discussion...
I think it is only worth Remain having another referendum if they can win convincingly, e.g., better than 55 per cent to 45 per cent .
A narrow victory for Remain, and an attempt to undo the first referendum result, would ensure that we have decades of quarrelling.
BINO seems a sensible compromise to me. The country is split, and the result is a fair reflection of the mood of the country.
Better to quarrel with the status quo intact than on a sinking ship.
First, Remain have to win the second referendum. That is not a racing certainty.
And second, to end the quarrel, Remain have to win big. That is extremely unlikely.
It is ludicrous to describe outside the EU as a sinking ship. The two most prosperous countries in Europe are outside the EU. Norway and Switzerland are not sinking ships.
I’d be happy with Switzerland arrangement but its not available. We know this! Norway does not solve NI issue.
All you’re doing is parroting the same debunked proposals that have been repeated for the last 2 years.
I am doing nothing of the kind. I am happy with BINO (as I said originally). I am saying that to describe that as a sinking ship is hyperbole.
I am afraid the country is split. You may not like it, and you may prefer to Remain.
However, politicians need to find a compromise that accepts the reality on the ground.
Also heard today that CCHQ fear if an election were to come about the Tories could go down to as low as 4 seats in London
I've got a feeling we'll see a SLAB-type fate awaiting whatever ruins of the Conservative Party is left from this cluster **** across England whenever the next election is held...
This is so stupid. The Conservatives have collapsed in London because of huge demographic change and people not being able to afford homes and families. Do you know what drives that? Vast uncontrollable immigration. Do you know what will control that? THIS DEAL.
Such angry certainty in the absence of facts.
Are you sure you aren't our Australian friend Archer?
I'm not sure that huge demographic change took place on the level claimed by @Theo between 2015 and 2017.
Something happened in between then though. That something seems a much more plausible explanation.
Everyone, on all sides of the house and all parts of the Brexit spectrum, has reason to be unhappy about this. Even so, there is a piquant irony in seeing committed Brexiteers complaining that if this is the deal, it’s worse than remaining a full member of the EU. Well, yes, that’s what some people suggested in the spring of 2016 too. Back then, however, life was all sunshine and roses and dreams were dreamt of gambolling with unicorns in the sweet-flowering meadows of cake-filled national liberation.
Oddly, it hasn’t quite worked out like that.
Because a Remainer usurped Brexit.
Ah the treachery myth is being created. The moron class is alive and well, I see.
How's it a myth it is there right before our eyes.
Had a Leaver been in charged and f###ed up the negotiations like Remainer May has you'd have a point.
Did those who voted Brexit really believe that the EU would just roll over and make Brexit as easy as possible? May has achieved a deal which will enable Brexit. It was incredibly difficult to get this far, but at least we will be leaving the EU now if the deal is passed. How will voting it down help matters. The EU will not suddenly change everything. We will either not leave or leave with No Deal. How can people have such unrealistic expectations of this process?
I think it is a type of hysteria, I really wonder if they have lost their minds and grip on reality. It can happen to anyone but the way that some politicians and people who post on here behave they seem to think change at any cost is desirable. I still cannot understand how a worse deal than we get at the moment is the way to go. Indeed with the EU successfully negotiating a trade deal between the EU with Japan and prior to that South Korea the fundamentals of staying in the EU strengthen not diminish.
Everyone, on all sides of the house and all parts of the Brexit spectrum, has reason to be unhappy about this. Even so, there is a piquant irony in seeing committed Brexiteers complaining that if this is the deal, it’s worse than remaining a full member of the EU. Well, yes, that’s what some people suggested in the spring of 2016 too. Back then, however, life was all sunshine and roses and dreams were dreamt of gambolling with unicorns in the sweet-flowering meadows of cake-filled national liberation.
Oddly, it hasn’t quite worked out like that.
Because a Remainer usurped Brexit.
Ah the treachery myth is being created. The moron class is alive and well, I see.
How's it a myth it is there right before our eyes.
Had a Leaver been in charged and f###ed up the negotiations like Remainer May has you'd have a point.
Fantasist.
Which part is fantastical?
That Leavers could have done it differently and were proposing to do it differently?
Everyone, on all sides of the house and all parts of the Brexit spectrum, has reason to be unhappy about this. Even so, there is a piquant irony in seeing committed Brexiteers complaining that if this is the deal, it’s worse than remaining a full member of the EU. Well, yes, that’s what some people suggested in the spring of 2016 too. Back then, however, life was all sunshine and roses and dreams were dreamt of gambolling with unicorns in the sweet-flowering meadows of cake-filled national liberation.
Oddly, it hasn’t quite worked out like that.
Because a Remainer usurped Brexit.
Ah the treachery myth is being created. The moron class is alive and well, I see.
How's it a myth it is there right before our eyes.
Had a Leaver been in charged and f###ed up the negotiations like Remainer May has you'd have a point.
So the problem isn't Brexit. It's the wrong kind of Brexiter.
Everyone, on all sides of the house and all parts of the Brexit spectrum, has reason to be unhappy about this. Even so, there is a piquant irony in seeing committed Brexiteers complaining that if this is the deal, it’s worse than remaining a full member of the EU. Well, yes, that’s what some people suggested in the spring of 2016 too. Back then, however, life was all sunshine and roses and dreams were dreamt of gambolling with unicorns in the sweet-flowering meadows of cake-filled national liberation.
Oddly, it hasn’t quite worked out like that.
Because a Remainer usurped Brexit.
Ah the treachery myth is being created. The moron class is alive and well, I see.
How's it a myth it is there right before our eyes.
Had a Leaver been in charged and f###ed up the negotiations like Remainer May has you'd have a point.
So the problem isn't Brexit. It's the wrong kind of Brexiter.
May isn't a Brexiteer she is a Remainer. We've got a fox in charge of the chicken coop.
Everyone, on all sides of the house and all parts of the Brexit spectrum, has reason to be unhappy about this. Even so, there is a piquant irony in seeing committed Brexiteers complaining that if this is the deal, it’s worse than remaining a full member of the EU. Well, yes, that’s what some people suggested in the spring of 2016 too. Back then, however, life was all sunshine and roses and dreams were dreamt of gambolling with unicorns in the sweet-flowering meadows of cake-filled national liberation.
Oddly, it hasn’t quite worked out like that.
Because a Remainer usurped Brexit.
Ah the treachery myth is being created. The moron class is alive and well, I see.
How's it a myth it is there right before our eyes.
Had a Leaver been in charged and f###ed up the negotiations like Remainer May has you'd have a point.
Fantasist.
Which part is fantastical?
That Leavers could have done it differently and were proposing to do it differently?
Or that May is a Remainer?
May might be a Remainer (I think a very soft one at heart though) but she put Leavers in charge of the FCO, DExEU and International Trade. She may have given them rope, but she didn't make them hang themselves with it.
Also heard today that CCHQ fear if an election were to come about the Tories could go down to as low as 4 seats in London
I've got a feeling we'll see a SLAB-type fate awaiting whatever ruins of the Conservative Party is left from this cluster **** across England whenever the next election is held...
This is so stupid. The Conservatives have collapsed in London because of huge demographic change and people not being able to afford homes and families. Do you know what drives that? Vast uncontrollable immigration. Do you know what will control that? THIS DEAL.
Such angry certainty in the absence of facts.
Are you sure you aren't our Australian friend Archer?
I'm not sure that huge demographic change took place on the level claimed by @Theo between 2015 and 2017.
Something happened in between then though. That something seems a much more plausible explanation.
Same reason the Tories got within a hair's breath of Ashfield and achieved over 40% of the vote in Bolsover I'd guess.
Did those who voted Brexit really believe that the EU would just roll over and make Brexit as easy as possible? May has achieved a deal which will enable Brexit. It was incredibly difficult to get this far, but at least we will be leaving the EU now if the deal is passed. How will voting it down help matters. The EU will not suddenly change everything. We will either not leave or leave with No Deal. How can people have such unrealistic expectations of this process?
I think it is a type of hysteria, I really wonder if they have lost their minds and grip on reality. It can happen to anyone but the way that some politicians and people who post on here behave they seem to think change at any cost is desirable. I still cannot understand how a worse deal than we get at the moment is the way to go. Indeed with the EU successfully negotiating a trade deal between the EU with Japan and prior to that South Korea the fundamentals of staying in the EU strengthen not diminish.
Because people aren't bothered about slightly smoother trade with South Korea and Japan. They are more bothered about freedom of movement, and the political side of the project.
Everyone, on all sides of the house and all parts of the Brexit spectrum, has reason to be unhappy about this. Even so, there is a piquant irony in seeing committed Brexiteers complaining that if this is the deal, it’s worse than remaining a full member of the EU. Well, yes, that’s what some people suggested in the spring of 2016 too. Back then, however, life was all sunshine and roses and dreams were dreamt of gambolling with unicorns in the sweet-flowering meadows of cake-filled national liberation.
Oddly, it hasn’t quite worked out like that.
Because a Remainer usurped Brexit.
Ah the treachery myth is being created. The moron class is alive and well, I see.
How's it a myth it is there right before our eyes.
Had a Leaver been in charged and f###ed up the negotiations like Remainer May has you'd have a point.
I suppose Johnson, Davis, Raab, Fox and all the other Brexit advocates were just vassal like members of the cabinet in roles that had nothing to do with negotiating an exit deal?
Everyone, on all sides of the house and all parts of the Brexit spectrum, has reason to be unhappy about this. Even so, there is a piquant irony in seeing committed Brexiteers complaining that if this is the deal, it’s worse than remaining a full member of the EU. Well, yes, that’s what some people suggested in the spring of 2016 too. Back then, however, life was all sunshine and roses and dreams were dreamt of gambolling with unicorns in the sweet-flowering meadows of cake-filled national liberation.
Oddly, it hasn’t quite worked out like that.
Because a Remainer usurped Brexit.
Ah the treachery myth is being created. The moron class is alive and well, I see.
How's it a myth it is there right before our eyes.
Had a Leaver been in charged and f###ed up the negotiations like Remainer May has you'd have a point.
I suppose Johnson, Davis, Raab, Fox and all the other Brexit advocates were just vassal like members of the cabinet in roles that had nothing to do with negotiating an exit deal?
Everyone, on all sides of the house and all parts of the Brexit spectrum, has reason to be unhappy about this. Even so, there is a piquant irony in seeing committed Brexiteers complaining that if this is the deal, it’s worse than remaining a full member of the EU. Well, yes, that’s what some people suggested in the spring of 2016 too. Back then, however, life was all sunshine and roses and dreams were dreamt of gambolling with unicorns in the sweet-flowering meadows of cake-filled national liberation.
Oddly, it hasn’t quite worked out like that.
Because a Remainer usurped Brexit.
Ah the treachery myth is being created. The moron class is alive and well, I see.
How's it a myth it is there right before our eyes.
Had a Leaver been in charged and f###ed up the negotiations like Remainer May has you'd have a point.
So the problem isn't Brexit. It's the wrong kind of Brexiter.
May isn't a Brexiteer she is a Remainer. We've got a fox in charge of the chicken coop.
I think that's unfair on May. Her priorities in the negotiations have been money and immigration, but she doesn't care very much about the Customs Union. In that, she probably reflects quite a lot of public opinion.
Everyone, on all sides of the house and all parts of the Brexit spectrum, has reason to be unhappy about this. Even so, there is a piquant irony in seeing committed Brexiteers complaining that if this is the deal, it’s worse than remaining a full member of the EU. Well, yes, that’s what some people suggested in the spring of 2016 too. Back then, however, life was all sunshine and roses and dreams were dreamt of gambolling with unicorns in the sweet-flowering meadows of cake-filled national liberation.
Oddly, it hasn’t quite worked out like that.
Because a Remainer usurped Brexit.
Ah the treachery myth is being created. The moron class is alive and well, I see.
How's it a myth it is there right before our eyes.
Had a Leaver been in charged and f###ed up the negotiations like Remainer May has you'd have a point.
Given that our leaver Brexit Secretary has admitted that 2 years after the referendum he didn't fully understand the importance of Dover as a trading link I doubt you will get many takers for the evolving myth that Brexit would have gone swimmingly with a leaver at the helm.
Everyone, on all sides of the house and all parts of the Brexit spectrum, has reason to be unhappy about this. Even so, there is a piquant irony in seeing committed Brexiteers complaining that if this is the deal, it’s worse than remaining a full member of the EU. Well, yes, that’s what some people suggested in the spring of 2016 too. Back then, however, life was all sunshine and roses and dreams were dreamt of gambolling with unicorns in the sweet-flowering meadows of cake-filled national liberation.
Oddly, it hasn’t quite worked out like that.
Because a Remainer usurped Brexit.
Ah the treachery myth is being created. The moron class is alive and well, I see.
How's it a myth it is there right before our eyes.
Had a Leaver been in charged and f###ed up the negotiations like Remainer May has you'd have a point.
I suppose Johnson, Davis, Raab, Fox and all the other Brexit advocates were just vassal like members of the cabinet in roles that had nothing to do with negotiating an exit deal?
All Fox has done in last 2 years is jetted around the world on business and first class and ingratiated himself with the trappings of being a minister. I dont think there is an MP i despise more than he.
Everyone, on all sides of the house and all parts of the Brexit spectrum, has reason to be unhappy about this. Even so, there is a piquant irony in seeing committed Brexiteers complaining that if this is the deal, it’s worse than remaining a full member of the EU. Well, yes, that’s what some people suggested in the spring of 2016 too. Back then, however, life was all sunshine and roses and dreams were dreamt of gambolling with unicorns in the sweet-flowering meadows of cake-filled national liberation.
Oddly, it hasn’t quite worked out like that.
Because a Remainer usurped Brexit.
Ah the treachery myth is being created. The moron class is alive and well, I see.
How's it a myth it is there right before our eyes.
Had a Leaver been in charged and f###ed up the negotiations like Remainer May has you'd have a point.
Fantasist.
Which part is fantastical?
That Leavers could have done it differently and were proposing to do it differently?
Or that May is a Remainer?
May might be a Remainer (I think a very soft one at heart though) but she put Leavers in charge of the FCO, DExEU and International Trade. She may have given them rope, but she didn't make them hang themselves with it.
If they were in charge we wouldn't have had resignations.
Did those who voted Brexit really believe that the EU would just roll over and make Brexit as easy as possible? May has achieved a deal which will enable Brexit. It was incredibly difficult to get this far, but at least we will be leaving the EU now if the deal is passed. How will voting it down help matters. The EU will not suddenly change everything. We will either not leave or leave with No Deal. How can people have such unrealistic expectations of this process?
I think it is a type of hysteria, I really wonder if they have lost their minds and grip on reality. It can happen to anyone but the way that some politicians and people who post on here behave they seem to think change at any cost is desirable. I still cannot understand how a worse deal than we get at the moment is the way to go. Indeed with the EU successfully negotiating a trade deal between the EU with Japan and prior to that South Korea the fundamentals of staying in the EU strengthen not diminish.
Because people aren't bothered about slightly smoother trade with South Korea and Japan. They are more bothered about freedom of movement, and the political side of the project.
I thought one of the main attractions of Brexit was striking new trade deals? Boris and some other Brexit advocates said they welcomed further immigration.
Did those who voted Brexit really believe that the EU would just roll over and make Brexit as easy as possible? May has achieved a deal which will enable Brexit. It was incredibly difficult to get this far, but at least we will be leaving the EU now if the deal is passed. How will voting it down help matters. The EU will not suddenly change everything. We will either not leave or leave with No Deal. How can people have such unrealistic expectations of this process?
I think it is a type of hysteria, I really wonder if they have lost their minds and grip on reality. It can happen to anyone but the way that some politicians and people who post on here behave they seem to think change at any cost is desirable. I still cannot understand how a worse deal than we get at the moment is the way to go. Indeed with the EU successfully negotiating a trade deal between the EU with Japan and prior to that South Korea the fundamentals of staying in the EU strengthen not diminish.
Because people aren't bothered about slightly smoother trade with South Korea and Japan. They are more bothered about freedom of movement, and the political side of the project.
I thought one of the main attractions of Brexit was striking new trade deals? Boris and some other Brexit advocates said they welcomed further immigration.
It is indeed. Australia is a great country to look at.
It has further immigration proportionately than we do. It has a points-based immigration system. It has trade deals with the USA and China.
We don't lower immigration proportionately than they do. We don't have a points-based immigration system. We don't have trade deals with the USA or China.
Did those who voted Brexit really believe that the EU would just roll over and make Brexit as easy as possible? May has achieved a deal which will enable Brexit. It was incredibly difficult to get this far, but at least we will be leaving the EU now if the deal is passed. How will voting it down help matters. The EU will not suddenly change everything. We will either not leave or leave with No Deal. How can people have such unrealistic expectations of this process?
I think it is a type of hysteria, I really wonder if they have lost their minds and grip on reality. It can happen to anyone but the way that some politicians and people who post on here behave they seem to think change at any cost is desirable. I still cannot understand how a worse deal than we get at the moment is the way to go. Indeed with the EU successfully negotiating a trade deal between the EU with Japan and prior to that South Korea the fundamentals of staying in the EU strengthen not diminish.
Because people aren't bothered about slightly smoother trade with South Korea and Japan. They are more bothered about freedom of movement, and the political side of the project.
I thought one of the main attractions of Brexit was striking new trade deals? Boris and some other Brexit advocates said they welcomed further immigration.
You must have missed the extensive polling on the subject.
Did those who voted Brexit really believe that the EU would just roll over and make Brexit as easy as possible? May has achieved a deal which will enable Brexit. It was incredibly difficult to get this far, but at least we will be leaving the EU now if the deal is passed. How will voting it down help matters. The EU will not suddenly change everything. We will either not leave or leave with No Deal. How can people have such unrealistic expectations of this process?
I think it is a type of hysteria, I really wonder if they have lost their minds and grip on reality. It can happen to anyone but the way that some politicians and people who post on here behave they seem to think change at any cost is desirable. I still cannot understand how a worse deal than we get at the moment is the way to go. Indeed with the EU successfully negotiating a trade deal between the EU with Japan and prior to that South Korea the fundamentals of staying in the EU strengthen not diminish.
Because people aren't bothered about slightly smoother trade with South Korea and Japan. They are more bothered about freedom of movement, and the political side of the project.
I thought one of the main attractions of Brexit was striking new trade deals? Boris and some other Brexit advocates said they welcomed further immigration.
For Joe Brexit, the appeal is to control immigration.
For the golf club bores, the appeal is to indulge their hatred of the EU.
Every other reason given is hogwash, given to backfill a respectable motivation on what is in reality merely visceral hatred of the EU.
Everyone, on all sides of the house and all parts of the Brexit spectrum, has reason to be unhappy about this. Even so, there is a piquant irony in seeing committed Brexiteers complaining that if this is the deal, it’s worse than remaining a full member of the EU. Well, yes, that’s what some people suggested in the spring of 2016 too. Back then, however, life was all sunshine and roses and dreams were dreamt of gambolling with unicorns in the sweet-flowering meadows of cake-filled national liberation.
Oddly, it hasn’t quite worked out like that.
Because a Remainer usurped Brexit.
Ah the treachery myth is being created. The moron class is alive and well, I see.
How's it a myth it is there right before our eyes.
Had a Leaver been in charged and f###ed up the negotiations like Remainer May has you'd have a point.
Given that our leaver Brexit Secretary has admitted that 2 years after the referendum he didn't fully understand the importance of Dover as a trading link I doubt you will get many takers for the evolving myth that Brexit would have gone swimmingly with a leaver at the helm.
If its a myth is it your proposal that May's government has been fantastic at these negotiations? Has May achieve the most that anyone could after preparing as thoroughly and negotiating as competently as could have been possible?
Did those who voted Brexit really believe that the EU would just roll over and make Brexit as easy as possible? May has achieved a deal which will enable Brexit. It was incredibly difficult to get this far, but at least we will be leaving the EU now if the deal is passed. How will voting it down help matters. The EU will not suddenly change everything. We will either not leave or leave with No Deal. How can people have such unrealistic expectations of this process?
I think it is a type of hysteria, I really wonder if they have lost their minds and grip on reality. It can happen to anyone but the way that some politicians and people who post on here behave they seem to think change at any cost is desirable. I still cannot understand how a worse deal than we get at the moment is the way to go. Indeed with the EU successfully negotiating a trade deal between the EU with Japan and prior to that South Korea the fundamentals of staying in the EU strengthen not diminish.
Because people aren't bothered about slightly smoother trade with South Korea and Japan. They are more bothered about freedom of movement, and the political side of the project.
I thought one of the main attractions of Brexit was striking new trade deals? Boris and some other Brexit advocates said they welcomed further immigration.
For Joe Brexit, the appeal is to control immigration.
For the golf club bores, the appeal is to indulge their hatred of the EU.
Every other reason given is hogwash, given to backfill a respectable motivation on what is in reality merely visceral hatred of the EU.
You don't quite cover me - I want to be out of the EU before Italy blows up the Euro and we end up paying for some of the aftermath...
I will admit that it's probably the view of a very, very small minority ....
Everyone, on all sides of the house and all parts of the Brexit spectrum, has reason to be unhappy about this. Even so, there is a piquant irony in seeing committed Brexiteers complaining that if this is the deal, it’s worse than remaining a full member of the EU. Well, yes, that’s what some people suggested in the spring of 2016 too. Back then, however, life was all sunshine and roses and dreams were dreamt of gambolling with unicorns in the sweet-flowering meadows of cake-filled national liberation.
Oddly, it hasn’t quite worked out like that.
Because a Remainer usurped Brexit.
Ah the treachery myth is being created. The moron class is alive and well, I see.
How's it a myth it is there right before our eyes.
Had a Leaver been in charged and f###ed up the negotiations like Remainer May has you'd have a point.
So the problem isn't Brexit. It's the wrong kind of Brexiter.
May isn't a Brexiteer she is a Remainer. We've got a fox in charge of the chicken coop.
I think that's unfair on May. Her priorities in the negotiations have been money and immigration, but she doesn't care very much about the Customs Union. In that, she probably reflects quite a lot of public opinion.
Everyone, on all sides of the house and all parts of the Brexit spectrum, has reason to be unhappy about this. Even so, there is a piquant irony in seeing committed Brexiteers complaining that if this is the deal, it’s worse than remaining a full member of the EU. Well, yes, that’s what some people suggested in the spring of 2016 too. Back then, however, life was all sunshine and roses and dreams were dreamt of gambolling with unicorns in the sweet-flowering meadows of cake-filled national liberation.
Oddly, it hasn’t quite worked out like that.
Because a Remainer usurped Brexit.
Ah the treachery myth is being created. The moron class is alive and well, I see.
How's it a myth it is there right before our eyes.
Had a Leaver been in charged and f###ed up the negotiations like Remainer May has you'd have a point.
Fantasist.
Which part is fantastical?
That Leavers could have done it differently and were proposing to do it differently?
Or that May is a Remainer?
May might be a Remainer (I think a very soft one at heart though) but she put Leavers in charge of the FCO, DExEU and International Trade. She may have given them rope, but she didn't make them hang themselves with it.
If they were in charge we wouldn't have had resignations.
That's an incredibly naive statement. As we can see on here, there are many different views amongst leavers on what they want, and some of them have some rather strong views on what leave should be.
The problem is that the various leave views are incompatible, and many leavers will have been unhappy whatever form of Brexit occurs.
Then you add in personalities such as Boris, Davis and JRM: you'd have had resignations even with a leaver in charge.
I don't get the fuss about free trade deals. We have excellent trade deals right now through the EU. We know the EU negotiators are excellent. We know ours are crap.
Are our crap negotiators going to out there and get better deals for the UK only than the EU excellent negotiators got for the EU including the UK?
Everyone, on all sides of the house and all parts of the Brexit spectrum, has reason to be unhappy about this. Even so, there is a piquant irony in seeing committed Brexiteers complaining that if this is the deal, it’s worse than remaining a full member of the EU. Well, yes, that’s what some people suggested in the spring of 2016 too. Back then, however, life was all sunshine and roses and dreams were dreamt of gambolling with unicorns in the sweet-flowering meadows of cake-filled national liberation.
Oddly, it hasn’t quite worked out like that.
Because a Remainer usurped Brexit.
Ah the treachery myth is being created. The moron class is alive and well, I see.
How's it a myth it is there right before our eyes.
Had a Leaver been in charged and f###ed up the negotiations like Remainer May has you'd have a point.
Fantasist.
Which part is fantastical?
That Leavers could have done it differently and were proposing to do it differently?
Or that May is a Remainer?
May might be a Remainer (I think a very soft one at heart though) but she put Leavers in charge of the FCO, DExEU and International Trade. She may have given them rope, but she didn't make them hang themselves with it.
If they were in charge we wouldn't have had resignations.
That's an incredibly naive statement. As we can see on here, there are many different views amongst leavers on what they want, and some of them have some rather strong views on what leave should be.
The problem is that the various leave views are incompatible, and many leavers will have been unhappy whatever form of Brexit occurs.
Then you add in personalities such as Boris, Davis and JRM: you'd have had resignations even with a leaver in charge.
Possibly but we didn't have a leaver in charge, we had Remainer May in charge. @rpjs was pretending Davis, Johnson etc were in charge, the only person in charge was Remainer May.
Did those who voted Brexit really believe that the EU would just roll over and make Brexit as easy as possible? May has achieved a deal which will enable Brexit. It was incredibly difficult to get this far, but at least we will be leaving the EU now if the deal is passed. How will voting it down help matters. The EU will not suddenly change everything. We will either not leave or leave with No Deal. How can people have such unrealistic expectations of this process?
I think it is a type of hysteria, I really wonder if they have lost their minds and grip on reality. It can happen to anyone but the way that some politicians and people who post on here behave they seem to think change at any cost is desirable. I still cannot understand how a worse deal than we get at the moment is the way to go. Indeed with the EU successfully negotiating a trade deal between the EU with Japan and prior to that South Korea the fundamentals of staying in the EU strengthen not diminish.
Because people aren't bothered about slightly smoother trade with South Korea and Japan. They are more bothered about freedom of movement, and the political side of the project.
I thought one of the main attractions of Brexit was striking new trade deals? Boris and some other Brexit advocates said they welcomed further immigration.
For Joe Brexit, the appeal is to control immigration.
For the golf club bores, the appeal is to indulge their hatred of the EU.
Every other reason given is hogwash, given to backfill a respectable motivation on what is in reality merely visceral hatred of the EU.
You don't quite cover me - I want to be out of the EU before Italy blows up the Euro and we end up paying for some of the aftermath...
I will admit that it's probably the view of a very, very small minority ....
For me, one reason is to get out of further political integration. If Germany and France are serious about an EU army, then it will be created, and it will need a central government to control it.
The slightly grim reality is that this is no deal at all. There are about 495 pages of detail about us leaving the EU, most of which will involve us agreeing to pay for various things, and then a heads of agreement in a sort of skeletal outline about what the future relationship will be. In fact it would be better describing this as an agreement to agree which, as any lawyer knows, is not normally binding but in this case it might be because of the backstop.
If May can get this agreement through the Commons (and I still think she will) we are committed to several more years of arguing about what our relationship with the EU is going to be. It is not a cheering thought and means the uncertainty which has deferred investment into the UK economy may continue.
OTOH as a soft leaver I am quite content with "a" customs union and the minimum interference with patterns of trade combined with us having more control of immigration and making fewer payments to the EU. If we are effectively free of the CFP and the CAP as well that is actually a better effort than I feared. If I was an MP (heaven forbid) I would vote for this.
I don't get the fuss about free trade deals. We have excellent trade deals right now through the EU. We know the EU negotiators are excellent. We know ours are crap.
Are our crap negotiators going to out there and get better deals for the UK only than the EU excellent negotiators got for the EU including the UK?
Yes. The USA is considerably bigger than the entire EU27 put together. Why is it we in the EU don't have a deal with them but Australia do?
Everyone, on all sides of the house and all parts of the Brexit spectrum, has reason to be unhappy about this. Even so, there is a piquant irony in seeing committed Brexiteers complaining that if this is the deal, it’s worse than remaining a full member of the EU. Well, yes, that’s what some people suggested in the spring of 2016 too. Back then, however, life was all sunshine and roses and dreams were dreamt of gambolling with unicorns in the sweet-flowering meadows of cake-filled national liberation.
Oddly, it hasn’t quite worked out like that.
Because a Remainer usurped Brexit.
Ah the treachery myth is being created. The moron class is alive and well, I see.
How's it a myth it is there right before our eyes.
Had a Leaver been in charged and f###ed up the negotiations like Remainer May has you'd have a point.
Fantasist.
Which part is fantastical?
That Leavers could have done it differently and were proposing to do it differently?
Or that May is a Remainer?
May might be a Remainer (I think a very soft one at heart though) but she put Leavers in charge of the FCO, DExEU and International Trade. She may have given them rope, but she didn't make them hang themselves with it.
If they were in charge we wouldn't have had resignations.
The slightly grim reality is that this is no deal at all. There are about 495 pages of detail about us leaving the EU, most of which will involve us agreeing to pay for various things, and then a heads of agreement in a sort of skeletal outline about what the future relationship will be. In fact it would be better describing this as an agreement to agree which, as any lawyer knows, is not normally binding but in this case it might be because of the backstop.
If May can get this agreement through the Commons (and I still think she will) we are committed to several more years of arguing about what our relationship with the EU is going to be. It is not a cheering thought and means the uncertainty which has deferred investment into the UK economy may continue.
OTOH as a soft leaver I am quite content with "a" customs union and the minimum interference with patterns of trade combined with us having more control of immigration and making fewer payments to the EU. If we are effectively free of the CFP and the CAP as well that is actually a better effort than I feared. If I was an MP (heaven forbid) I would vote for this.
It boggles the mind how much energy was expended on deciding the what if.
Everyone, on all sides of the house and all parts of the Brexit spectrum, has reason to be unhappy about this. Even so, there is a piquant irony in seeing committed Brexiteers complaining that if this is the deal, it’s worse than remaining a full member of the EU. Well, yes, that’s what some people suggested in the spring of 2016 too. Back then, however, life was all sunshine and roses and dreams were dreamt of gambolling with unicorns in the sweet-flowering meadows of cake-filled national liberation.
Oddly, it hasn’t quite worked out like that.
Because a Remainer usurped Brexit.
Ah the treachery myth is being created. The moron class is alive and well, I see.
How sweet. Now we'll have our very own Dolchstoßlegende.
I don't get the fuss about free trade deals. We have excellent trade deals right now through the EU. We know the EU negotiators are excellent. We know ours are crap.
Are our crap negotiators going to out there and get better deals for the UK only than the EU excellent negotiators got for the EU including the UK?
Yes. The USA is considerably bigger than the entire EU27 put together. Why is it we in the EU don't have a deal with them but Australia do?
I take Robert Smithson's point that the terms of a trade deal with the US do not look particularly attractive.
I don't get the fuss about free trade deals. We have excellent trade deals right now through the EU. We know the EU negotiators are excellent. We know ours are crap.
Are our crap negotiators going to out there and get better deals for the UK only than the EU excellent negotiators got for the EU including the UK?
No, the UK is a much smaller entity than the EU. My point with Japan and before that South Korea was that deal was already done on terms that satisfied both sides. The new trade deals post Brexit is fantasy IMO and the much vaunted New Zealand trade deal that Brexiteers always advocated is a drop in the ocean given the size of their economy and population.
The FTPA gives the DUP a unique form of water torture they could apply to the Gov't. Confidence without supply of votes for budgets and so forth.
Which is a good reason why the FTPA is an abomination that needs tidying out of existence as soon as any government has the time and wherewithal to do so.
I don't get the fuss about free trade deals. We have excellent trade deals right now through the EU. We know the EU negotiators are excellent. We know ours are crap.
Are our crap negotiators going to out there and get better deals for the UK only than the EU excellent negotiators got for the EU including the UK?
They are just out of practice, since the EU took over all responsibility for that area of things.
The slightly grim reality is that this is no deal at all. There are about 495 pages of detail about us leaving the EU, most of which will involve us agreeing to pay for various things, and then a heads of agreement in a sort of skeletal outline about what the future relationship will be. In fact it would be better describing this as an agreement to agree which, as any lawyer knows, is not normally binding but in this case it might be because of the backstop.
If May can get this agreement through the Commons (and I still think she will) we are committed to several more years of arguing about what our relationship with the EU is going to be. It is not a cheering thought and means the uncertainty which has deferred investment into the UK economy may continue.
OTOH as a soft leaver I am quite content with "a" customs union and the minimum interference with patterns of trade combined with us having more control of immigration and making fewer payments to the EU. If we are effectively free of the CFP and the CAP as well that is actually a better effort than I feared. If I was an MP (heaven forbid) I would vote for this.
Is the agreement out yet? I'd love to read it!
From the mood music we've been hearing, rour position is pretty much mine, incidentally. Providing we the backstop is temporary (and frankly I don't think the EU want it to be permanent) I am perfectly willing to accept the compromise this represents.
The slightly grim reality is that this is no deal at all. There are about 495 pages of detail about us leaving the EU, most of which will involve us agreeing to pay for various things, and then a heads of agreement in a sort of skeletal outline about what the future relationship will be. In fact it would be better describing this as an agreement to agree which, as any lawyer knows, is not normally binding but in this case it might be because of the backstop.
If May can get this agreement through the Commons (and I still think she will) we are committed to several more years of arguing about what our relationship with the EU is going to be. It is not a cheering thought and means the uncertainty which has deferred investment into the UK economy may continue.
OTOH as a soft leaver I am quite content with "a" customs union and the minimum interference with patterns of trade combined with us having more control of immigration and making fewer payments to the EU. If we are effectively free of the CFP and the CAP as well that is actually a better effort than I feared. If I was an MP (heaven forbid) I would vote for this.
It boggles the mind how much energy was expended on deciding the what if.
Because it's not the what if, it's the what. The EU have expended this energy not out of some futile effort to mess us around but to lock in now what they want.
The FTPA gives the DUP a unique form of water torture they could apply to the Gov't. Confidence without supply of votes for budgets and so forth.
Not really, because Theresa May can call an election any time she wants. Corbyn has precisely zero wriggle room on this, he's been going on for ages about wanting an election.
The slightly grim reality is that this is no deal at all. There are about 495 pages of detail about us leaving the EU, most of which will involve us agreeing to pay for various things, and then a heads of agreement in a sort of skeletal outline about what the future relationship will be. In fact it would be better describing this as an agreement to agree which, as any lawyer knows, is not normally binding but in this case it might be because of the backstop.
If May can get this agreement through the Commons (and I still think she will) we are committed to several more years of arguing about what our relationship with the EU is going to be. It is not a cheering thought and means the uncertainty which has deferred investment into the UK economy may continue.
OTOH as a soft leaver I am quite content with "a" customs union and the minimum interference with patterns of trade combined with us having more control of immigration and making fewer payments to the EU. If we are effectively free of the CFP and the CAP as well that is actually a better effort than I feared. If I was an MP (heaven forbid) I would vote for this.
It boggles the mind how much energy was expended on deciding the what if.
Because it's not the what if, it's the what. The EU have expended this energy not out of some futile effort to mess us around but to lock in now what they want.
Yes, I suspect they'll be less motivated to do anything beyond this.
The slightly grim reality is that this is no deal at all. There are about 495 pages of detail about us leaving the EU, most of which will involve us agreeing to pay for various things, and then a heads of agreement in a sort of skeletal outline about what the future relationship will be. In fact it would be better describing this as an agreement to agree which, as any lawyer knows, is not normally binding but in this case it might be because of the backstop.
If May can get this agreement through the Commons (and I still think she will) we are committed to several more years of arguing about what our relationship with the EU is going to be. It is not a cheering thought and means the uncertainty which has deferred investment into the UK economy may continue.
OTOH as a soft leaver I am quite content with "a" customs union and the minimum interference with patterns of trade combined with us having more control of immigration and making fewer payments to the EU. If we are effectively free of the CFP and the CAP as well that is actually a better effort than I feared. If I was an MP (heaven forbid) I would vote for this.
Is the agreement out yet? I'd love to read it!
From the mood music we've been hearing, rour position is pretty much mine, incidentally. Providing we the backstop is temporary (and frankly I don't think the EU want it to be permanent) I am perfectly willing to accept the compromise this represents.
I think most Brexiteers outwith the frothing fringe will be content with this and most remainers will feel that it could have been worse. The Parliamentary arithmetic is tight but I think she will get there. My understanding is that the agreement will be published this evening both in the UK and in the EU.
I don't get the fuss about free trade deals. We have excellent trade deals right now through the EU. We know the EU negotiators are excellent. We know ours are crap.
Are our crap negotiators going to out there and get better deals for the UK only than the EU excellent negotiators got for the EU including the UK?
No, the UK is a much smaller entity than the EU. My point with Japan and before that South Korea was that deal was already done on terms that satisfied both sides. The new trade deals post Brexit is fantasy IMO and the much vaunted New Zealand trade deal that Brexiteers always advocated is a drop in the ocean given the size of their economy and population.
Yes, only the seventh or eighth largest economy on the planet. Tiny.
The FTPA gives the DUP a unique form of water torture they could apply to the Gov't. Confidence without supply of votes for budgets and so forth.
Which is a good reason why the FTPA is an abomination that needs tidying out of existence as soon as any government has the time and wherewithal to do so.
If the DUP start to play this game, the Gov't could always vote against itself in a confidence motion !
The slightly grim reality is that this is no deal at all. There are about 495 pages of detail about us leaving the EU, most of which will involve us agreeing to pay for various things, and then a heads of agreement in a sort of skeletal outline about what the future relationship will be. In fact it would be better describing this as an agreement to agree which, as any lawyer knows, is not normally binding but in this case it might be because of the backstop.
If May can get this agreement through the Commons (and I still think she will) we are committed to several more years of arguing about what our relationship with the EU is going to be. It is not a cheering thought and means the uncertainty which has deferred investment into the UK economy may continue.
OTOH as a soft leaver I am quite content with "a" customs union and the minimum interference with patterns of trade combined with us having more control of immigration and making fewer payments to the EU. If we are effectively free of the CFP and the CAP as well that is actually a better effort than I feared. If I was an MP (heaven forbid) I would vote for this.
It boggles the mind how much energy was expended on deciding the what if.
Because it's not the what if, it's the what. The EU have expended this energy not out of some futile effort to mess us around but to lock in now what they want.
Yes, I suspect they'll be less motivated to do anything beyond this.
Precisely. It's funny how some naively are dismissing this as irrelevant or banging on about myths when the only logical outcome is that the EU have sent all their effort in getting this now because they want it. Now we've conceded, why would they dismiss it?
Also heard today that CCHQ fear if an election were to come about the Tories could go down to as low as 4 seats in London
I've got a feeling we'll see a SLAB-type fate awaiting whatever ruins of the Conservative Party is left from this cluster **** across England whenever the next election is held...
This is so stupid. The Conservatives have collapsed in London because of huge demographic change and people not being able to afford homes and families. Do you know what drives that? Vast uncontrollable immigration.
Oh, come on.
Immigration is believed to have put house prices up by 21% in the last 25 years. Sure.
Except that house prices have actually increased by 320% in this period. So immigration is a minor factor.
And looking into the future: "In 2008, Professor Stephen Nickell, then-head of the NHPAU, said that with projected housebuilding and immigration rates, the average house price would rise from 7 times the average income, to 10 times the average income over the period 2006 to 2026. However, if net migration was reduced to zero, the average house price would only increase to nine times the average income over the same period."
Well, that's ok then. If a house is only nine times the average income, I'll buy two.
I don't get the fuss about free trade deals. We have excellent trade deals right now through the EU. We know the EU negotiators are excellent. We know ours are crap.
Are our crap negotiators going to out there and get better deals for the UK only than the EU excellent negotiators got for the EU including the UK?
No, the UK is a much smaller entity than the EU. My point with Japan and before that South Korea was that deal was already done on terms that satisfied both sides. The new trade deals post Brexit is fantasy IMO and the much vaunted New Zealand trade deal that Brexiteers always advocated is a drop in the ocean given the size of their economy and population.
Yes, only the seventh or eighth largest economy on the planet. Tiny.
Try fifth of sixth largest surely? Larger than South Korea.
South Korea is another nation that has trade deals with Europe, China, USA, Japan, Asia, Australia etc - virtually the whole world. We don't.
Everyone, on all sides of the house and all parts of the Brexit spectrum, has reason to be unhappy about this. Even so, there is a piquant irony in seeing committed Brexiteers complaining that if this is the deal, it’s worse than remaining a full member of the EU. Well, yes, that’s what some people suggested in the spring of 2016 too. Back then, however, life was all sunshine and roses and dreams were dreamt of gambolling with unicorns in the sweet-flowering meadows of cake-filled national liberation.
Oddly, it hasn’t quite worked out like that.
Because a Remainer usurped Brexit.
Ah the treachery myth is being created. The moron class is alive and well, I see.
How's it a myth it is there right before our eyes.
Had a Leaver been in charged and f###ed up the negotiations like Remainer May has you'd have a point.
Fantasist.
Which part is fantastical?
That Leavers could have done it differently and were proposing to do it differently?
Or that May is a Remainer?
May might be a Remainer (I think a very soft one at heart though) but she put Leavers in charge of the FCO, DExEU and International Trade. She may have given them rope, but she didn't make them hang themselves with it.
If they were in charge we wouldn't have had resignations.
That's an incredibly naive statement. As we can see on here, there are many different views amongst leavers on what they want, and some of them have some rather strong views on what leave should be.
The problem is that the various leave views are incompatible, and many leavers will have been unhappy whatever form of Brexit occurs.
Then you add in personalities such as Boris, Davis and JRM: you'd have had resignations even with a leaver in charge.
Possibly but we didn't have a leaver in charge, we had Remainer May in charge. @rpjs was pretending Davis, Johnson etc were in charge, the only person in charge was Remainer May.
I'd like to know the evidence on which you base your conclusion that Davis, Johnson etc are competent, and performed those roles well.
I don't get the fuss about free trade deals. We have excellent trade deals right now through the EU. We know the EU negotiators are excellent. We know ours are crap.
Are our crap negotiators going to out there and get better deals for the UK only than the EU excellent negotiators got for the EU including the UK?
No, the UK is a much smaller entity than the EU. My point with Japan and before that South Korea was that deal was already done on terms that satisfied both sides. The new trade deals post Brexit is fantasy IMO and the much vaunted New Zealand trade deal that Brexiteers always advocated is a drop in the ocean given the size of their economy and population.
Yes, only the seventh or eighth largest economy on the planet. Tiny.
Try fifth of sixth largest surely? Larger than South Korea.
South Korea is another nation that has trade deals with Europe, China, USA, Japan, Asia, Australia etc - virtually the whole world. We don't.
New Zealand is the fifth, sixth, seventh or eight biggest economy?
Comments
This was my point earlier about people measuring what is good or bad using different scales. It's why there is so much mutual incomprehension in the debate.
Or the benefit of not wasting billions each year on French and Polish farmers.
Or the benefit of controlling our own service sectors, so we are not at the mercy of France's banking rulebook.
Or the benefit of signing our own trade deals with the rest of the world.
They sit on their hands and stay at home. While Labour voters are VERY motivated to turn out for Jezza as always...
A narrow victory for Remain, and an attempt to undo the first referendum result, would ensure that we have decades of quarrelling.
BINO seems a sensible compromise to me. The country is split, and the result is a fair reflection of the mood of the country.
But can't be arsed otherwise.
Hint: The vast majority of people aren't hugely impassioned about Brexit either way...
"Retired bookmakers require the services of people of honesty and integrity to assist us in placing *OUR MONEY* on specific horses that WILL WIN. We are not tipsters trying to sell you a service . *WE PAY YOU* NO OBLIGATION. For further information reply 'YES' Today. D & M Millbrook."
I'd be tempted if I hadn't already given it all to a Nigerian Prince...
And yet we are agreeing to a legally binding Withdrawal Agreement without a Trade Agreement.
And second, to end the quarrel, Remain have to win big. That is extremely unlikely.
It is ludicrous to describe outside the EU as a sinking ship. The two most prosperous countries in Europe are outside the EU. Norway and Switzerland are not sinking ships.
https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1016217142419697664?lang=en
Are you sure you aren't our Australian friend Archer?
All you’re doing is parroting the same debunked proposals that have been repeated for the last 2 years.
https://twitter.com/tom_watson/status/1062707183853412352
but given it's a hide all the news you can day it's not surprising.
Had a Leaver been in charged and f###ed up the negotiations like Remainer May has you'd have a point.
my opinion of her stoops ever lower
Several will not want to miss out on being a challenger.
I am afraid the country is split. You may not like it, and you may prefer to Remain.
However, politicians need to find a compromise that accepts the reality on the ground.
Something happened in between then though. That something seems a much more plausible explanation.
That Leavers could have done it differently and were proposing to do it differently?
Or that May is a Remainer?
With Brexit where it there are just too many factors for the government to consider, it's beyond me.
“We are looking to see whether the government could actually negotiate a permanent customs union," he said.
"That doesn’t seem to be case here. It seems to be some sort of temporary arrangement in the backstop.”
Of course you can, that's what the Future Partnership is for.
Although the EU would never agree without Freedom of Movement.
It has further immigration proportionately than we do. It has a points-based immigration system. It has trade deals with the USA and China.
We don't lower immigration proportionately than they do. We don't have a points-based immigration system. We don't have trade deals with the USA or China.
http://csi.nuff.ox.ac.uk/?p=1153
For the golf club bores, the appeal is to indulge their hatred of the EU.
Every other reason given is hogwash, given to backfill a respectable motivation on what is in reality merely visceral hatred of the EU.
I will admit that it's probably the view of a very, very small minority ....
https://twitter.com/ProfDaveAndress/status/973190947499663362?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
The problem is that the various leave views are incompatible, and many leavers will have been unhappy whatever form of Brexit occurs.
Then you add in personalities such as Boris, Davis and JRM: you'd have had resignations even with a leaver in charge.
Are our crap negotiators going to out there and get better deals for the UK only than the EU excellent negotiators got for the EU including the UK?
If May can get this agreement through the Commons (and I still think she will) we are committed to several more years of arguing about what our relationship with the EU is going to be. It is not a cheering thought and means the uncertainty which has deferred investment into the UK economy may continue.
OTOH as a soft leaver I am quite content with "a" customs union and the minimum interference with patterns of trade combined with us having more control of immigration and making fewer payments to the EU. If we are effectively free of the CFP and the CAP as well that is actually a better effort than I feared. If I was an MP (heaven forbid) I would vote for this.
From the mood music we've been hearing, rour position is pretty much mine, incidentally. Providing we the backstop is temporary (and frankly I don't think the EU want it to be permanent) I am perfectly willing to accept the compromise this represents.
My understanding is that the agreement will be published this evening both in the UK and in the EU.
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1062718813488070656
South Korea is another nation that has trade deals with Europe, China, USA, Japan, Asia, Australia etc - virtually the whole world. We don't.
You cannot blame May for their incompetence.
If so Rudd back in pronto is there a market?
Make your minds up, which one are they...?
https://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/news/crime/judge-adjourns-old-bailey-trial-of-peterborough-mp-fiona-onasanya-after-matters-drawn-to-his-attention-1-8705722
An adjournment until tomorrow in the case of Peterborough's MP and brother.