Is that the right tactic? I don't know. I imagine there are quite a few on both benches that would like to vote against but have the deal pass
The only people voting down works for is those that want to see Corbyn as PM and a no deal Brexit.
Incorrect - it also works for those who do not care about Corbyn as PM or a no deal Brexit (or one of the two at any rate). That number is probably at least half the Commons - Labour MPs, despite their protests, SNP and the rest of the opposition, plus the ERG and DUP.
If they genuinely want no deal, or think Corbyn as PM and/or no deal is better than a bad deal, then they should vote it down, whatever the consequences. Fear of Corbyn alone should not do it.
If you genuinely want no deal, but don't want Corbyn as PM, you should vote reluctantly for it now and then push for leaving it in 5 years time.
Anyone that thinks BOTH crashing over the cliff edge AND a Corbyn government wouldn't be devastating for this country is completely without mental faculty. We would be a basket case of an economy just as the next global recession hits, ripe for Trumpist populism on both sides.
Others have declared themselves Self Employed but earn peanuts.
Like teachers but with more job security?
Teachers on just above the average salary, better than average pensions, once in place very hard to sack and with long holidays?
It is not that bad in the classroom
That's almost as wrong as your claims about ConHome.
Edit - if it's that good, why aren't you a teacher?
Why you still a teacher then?
I did not say life as a teacher was perfect but they are hardly on zero hours contracts or minimum wage or unemployed even if doing supply.
Yes they are on zero hours contracts if doing supply. It's one reason why no government will get rid of them.
Good question, why [am] I still a teacher? I don't know. Nor does the letter of resignation I'm in the process of drafting.
It is actually very easy to get rid of teachers you don't want, contrary to popular belief. Woodhead's lie about bad teachers is still believed even though ironically he was sacked twice himself.
As for 'it's not that bad in the classroom,' how on earth would you know? Pure sophistry.
Most people who do supply are either looking for a permanent role or like the flexibility.
There are far worse jobs than teaching, many lower paid and with far fewer holidays and worse pensions, most teachers do not have long commutes and the associated costs.
I never said teaching was easy nor perfect but teachers who complain all the time often have gone straight from school to university then back to the classroom with no time in the world outside
That is truly epic ignorance. Most teachers commute over an hour to work. You are just embarrassing yourself now.
And I spent three years in academia, three years self employed and a year as a Civil Servant before going into teaching and having to cope with a colleague literally walking out yesterday.
Take your patronising, lying shit elsewhere. It's people like you who give Tories a bad name.
He cannot help himself.
He even thinks he knows more than those in the know and ends up just looking foolish
I'm sorry I tarred all Tories by association Big_G. I know you're not all like this (thank God).
I'm having rather a tough time at the moment as you probably guessed and I just snapped.
The combination of few (8%) of Leave voters now thinking Brexit is wrong and only 20% of Labour voters thinking it is right suggests that the archetypal Labour Leave voter is a distinctly minority beast.
Others have declared themselves Self Employed but earn peanuts.
Like teachers but with more job security?
Teachers on just above the average salary, better than average pensions, once in place very hard to sack and with long holidays?
It is not that bad in the classroom
That's almost as wrong as your claims about ConHome.
Edit - if it's that good, why aren't you a teacher?
Why you still a teacher then?
I did not say life as a teacher was perfect but they are hardly on zero hours contracts or minimum wage or unemployed even if doing supply.
Yes they are on zero hours contracts if doing supply. It's one reason why no government will get rid of them.
Good question, why [am] I still a teacher? I don't know. Nor does the letter of resignation I'm in the process of drafting.
It is actually very easy to get rid of teachers you don't want, contrary to popular belief. Woodhead's lie about bad teachers is still believed even though ironically he was sacked twice himself.
As for 'it's not that bad in the classroom,' how on earth would you know? Pure sophistry.
Most people who do supply are either looking for a permanent role or like the flexibility.
There are far worse jobs than teaching, many lower paid and with far fewer holidays and worse pensions, most teachers do not have long commutes and the associated costs.
I never said teaching was easy nor perfect but teachers who complain all the time often have gone straight from school to university then back to the classroom with no time in the world outside
That is truly epic ignorance. Most teachers commute over an hour to work. You are just embarrassing yourself now.
And I spent three years in academia, three years self employed and a year as a Civil Servant before going into teaching and having to cope with a colleague literally walking out yesterday.
Take your patronising, lying shit elsewhere. It's people like you who give Tories a bad name.
Do teachers really commute that long ? And if so why ?
And if all Tory MPs do not, and in fact most do say yes to it, then Boris, Davis and co must surely resign from the Conservatives. It would make no sense, even if they insist they are the true conservatives (and even if they are right in that) , to remain in a party which backs doing what he suggests it means.
The combination of few (8%) of Leave voters now thinking Brexit is wrong and only 20% of Labour voters thinking it is right suggests that the archetypal Labour Leave voter is a distinctly minority beast.
Tonight David Davis, Boris Johnson, and Jacob Rees-Mogg have all reconfirmed that they are bigger c***s than Mark Reckless.
They see their dream slipping away and are looking desperate. Sad really
If they follow through on their talk I will respect it more - if they truly believe a bad brexit is worse than no brexit, then they need to take appropriate action.
So the crap is on the table. What do we do with it? We need to do something before it stinks the house out.
For me, the keys are:
(1) can we get out of this at a time of our own choosing, with or without notice?
(2) have we got the CU without making concessions on FoM?
(3) is it still the decision of the U.K. Parliament whether to implement EU law or does it have direct effect? If the former what are the penalties for non compliance?
(4) have we got rid of that f****** awful backstop for NI or is it still a part of the agreement? If it is what penalties have we conceded for non compliance?
Of these the most important is the first. One day, maybe, we will have a competent government with a clear understanding of consequences for both their actions and failures to act. I want that government to have the ability to make good the appalling incompetence of this one.
On (1) we will be a sovereign government that can leave treaties at any time, if willing to pay the diplomatic and economic costs. Any sensible Brexiteer should be able to see that can be done at a time when it won't bring Corbyn into power.
The economic and diplomatic costs of reneging on a treaty can be considerable. The US can get away with it through sheer size and power, the UK less so. I also recall someone posting here that we're party to a convention that forbids the unilaterally denouncing of a treaty other than by the terms (if any) set out in that treaty.
So would be sticking up two fingers to this deal. I don't think making a "clean break" in 10 years would be more harmful.
Others have declared themselves Self Employed but earn peanuts.
Like teachers but with more job security?
Teachers on just above the average salary, better than average pensions, once in place very hard to sack and with long holidays?
It is not that bad in the classroom
That's almost as wrong as your claims about ConHome.
Edit - if it's that good, why aren't you a teacher?
Why you still a teacher then?
I did not say life as a teacher was perfect but they are hardly on zero hours contracts or minimum wage or unemployed even if doing supply.
Yes they are on zero hours contracts if doing supply. It's one reason why no government will get rid of them.
Good question, why [am] I still a teacher? I don't know. Nor does the letter of resignation I'm in the process of drafting.
It is actually very easy to get rid of teachers you don't want, contrary to popular belief. Woodhead's lie about bad teachers is still believed even though ironically he was sacked twice himself.
As for 'it's not that bad in the classroom,' how on earth would you know? Pure sophistry.
Most people who do supply are either looking for a permanent role or like the flexibility.
There are far worse jobs than teaching, many lower paid and with far fewer holidays and worse pensions, most teachers do not have long commutes and the associated costs.
I never said teaching was easy nor perfect but teachers who complain all the time often have gone straight from school to university then back to the classroom with no time in the world outside
That is truly epic ignorance. Most teachers commute over an hour to work. You are just embarrassing yourself now.
And I spent three years in academia, three years self employed and a year as a Civil Servant before going into teaching and having to cope with a colleague literally walking out yesterday.
Take your patronising, lying shit elsewhere. It's people like you who give Tories a bad name.
Most teachers commute over an hour? Why would they? 13-14 weeks is a lot of holiday, more than double what an average worker gets. College and University lecturers get even more.
Others have declared themselves Self Employed but earn peanuts.
Like teachers but with more job security?
Teachers on just above the average salary, better than average pensions, once in place very hard to sack and with long holidays?
It is not that bad in the classroom
That's almost as wrong as your claims about ConHome.
Edit - if it's that good, why aren't you a teacher?
Why you still a teacher then?
I did not say life as a teacher was perfect but they are hardly on zero hours contracts or minimum wage or unemployed even if doing supply.
Yes they are on zero hours contracts if doing supply. It's one reason why no government will get rid of them.
Good question, why [am] I still a teacher? I don't know. Nor does the letter of resignation I'm in the process of drafting.
It is actually very easy to get rid of teachers you don't want, contrary to popular belief. Woodhead's lie about bad teachers is still believed even though ironically he was sacked twice himself.
As for 'it's not that bad in the classroom,' how on earth would you know? Pure sophistry.
Most people who do supply are either looking for a permanent role or like the flexibility.
There are far worse jobs than teaching, many lower paid and with far fewer holidays and worse pensions, most teachers do not have long commutes and the associated costs.
I never said teaching was easy nor perfect but teachers who complain all the time often have gone straight from school to university then back to the classroom with no time in the world outside
That is truly epic ignorance. Most teachers commute over an hour to work. You are just embarrassing yourself now.
And I spent three years in academia, three years self employed and a year as a Civil Servant before going into teaching and having to cope with a colleague literally walking out yesterday.
Take your patronising, lying shit elsewhere. It's people like you who give Tories a bad name.
He cannot help himself.
He even thinks he knows more than those in the know and ends up just looking foolish
I'm sorry I tarred all Tories by association Big_G. I know you're not all like this (thank God).
I'm having rather a tough time at the moment as you probably guessed and I just snapped.
Understandable. Non-teachers telling teachers what an easy life they have is trying at the best of times.
Others have declared themselves Self Employed but earn peanuts.
Like teachers but with more job security?
Teachers on just above the average salary, better than average pensions, once in place very hard to sack and with long holidays?
It is not that bad in the classroom
That's almost as wrong as your claims about ConHome.
Edit - if it's that good, why aren't you a teacher?
Why you still a teacher then?
I did not say life as a teacher was perfect but they are hardly on zero hours contracts or minimum wage or unemployed even if doing supply.
Yes they are on zero hours contracts if doing supply. It's one reason why no government will get rid of them.
Good question, why [am] I still a teacher? I don't know. Nor does the letter of resignation I'm in the process of drafting.
It is actually very easy to get rid of teachers you don't want, contrary to popular belief. Woodhead's lie about bad teachers is still believed even though ironically he was sacked twice himself.
As for 'it's not that bad in the classroom,' how on earth would you know? Pure sophistry.
Most people who do supply are either looking for a permanent role or like the flexibility.
There are far worse jobs than teaching, many lower paid and with far fewer holidays and worse pensions, most teachers do not have long commutes and the associated costs.
I never said teaching was easy nor perfect but teachers who complain all the time often have gone straight from school to university then back to the classroom with no time in the world outside
That is truly epic ignorance. Most teachers commute over an hour to work. You are just embarrassing yourself now.
And I spent three years in academia, three years self employed and a year as a Civil Servant before going into teaching and having to cope with a colleague literally walking out yesterday.
Take your patronising, lying shit elsewhere. It's people like you who give Tories a bad name.
He cannot help himself.
He even thinks he knows more than those in the know and ends up just looking foolish
I'm sorry I tarred all Tories by association Big_G. I know you're not all like this (thank God).
I'm having rather a tough time at the moment as you probably guessed and I just snapped.
You have every right to. I said to him the other day I find it hard to think we are in the same party
I really hope you are able to resolve your problems soon. All the best
Right. It would make more sense for them to say we aren't getting enough sovereignty back. We are getting it in services, immigration, justice and other non-economic matters but not goods.
Indeed.
And I wonder how many Leavers in the manufacturing sector are quite happy with the status quo on goods rather than having the likes of Boris negotiating new trade treaties.
Except for a few exceptions, manufacturing is mainly not done globally. We sell a lot of cars to Europe but very few to the USA, which is just across the Atlantic.
Others have declared themselves Self Employed but earn peanuts.
Like teachers but with more job security?
Teachers on just above the average salary, better than average pensions, once in place very hard to sack and with long holidays?
It is not that bad in the classroom
That's almost as wrong as your claims about ConHome.
Edit - if it's that good, why aren't you a teacher?
Why you still a teacher then?
I did not say life as a teacher was perfect but they are hardly on zero hours contracts or minimum wage or unemployed even if doing supply.
Yes they are on zero hours contracts if doing supply. It's one reason why no government will get rid of them.
Good question, why [am] I still a teacher? I don't know. Nor does the letter of resignation I'm in the process of drafting.
It is actually very easy to get rid of teachers you don't want, contrary to popular belief. Woodhead's lie about bad teachers is still believed even though ironically he was sacked twice himself.
As for 'it's not that bad in the classroom,' how on earth would you know? Pure sophistry.
Most people who do supply are either looking for a permanent role or like the flexibility.
There are far worse jobs than teaching, many lower paid and with far fewer holidays and worse pensions, most teachers do not have long commutes and the associated costs.
I never said teaching was easy nor perfect but teachers who complain all the time often have gone straight from school to university then back to the classroom with no time in the world outside
That is truly epic ignorance. Most teachers commute over an hour to work. You are just embarrassing yourself now.
And I spent three years in academia, three years self employed and a year as a Civil Servant before going into teaching and having to cope with a colleague literally walking out yesterday.
Take your patronising, lying shit elsewhere. It's people like you who give Tories a bad name.
Most teachers commute over an hour? Why would they?
I am not a teacher, but most I know do not live in the town they work in, often deliberately.
I've commented before that teachers never seem particularly happy, but I'm inclined to take the word of a teacher over a non-teacher on such matters.
Others have declared themselves Self Employed but earn peanuts.
Like teachers but with more job security?
Teachers on just above the average salary, better than average pensions, once in place very hard to sack and with long holidays?
It is not that bad in the classroom
That's almost as wrong as your claims about ConHome.
Edit - if it's that good, why aren't you a teacher?
Why you still a teacher then?
I did not say life as a teacher was perfect but they are hardly on zero hours contracts or minimum wage or unemployed even if doing supply.
Yes they are on zero hours contracts if doing supply. It's one reason why no government will get rid of them.
Good question, why [am] I still a teacher? I don't know. Nor does the letter of resignation I'm in the process of drafting.
It is actually very easy to get rid of teachers you don't want, contrary to popular belief. Woodhead's lie about bad teachers is still believed even though ironically he was sacked twice himself.
As for 'it's not that bad in the classroom,' how on earth would you know? Pure sophistry.
Most people who do supply are either looking for a permanent role or like the flexibility.
There are far worse jobs than teaching, many lower paid and with far fewer holidays and worse pensions, most teachers do not have long commutes and the associated costs.
I never said teaching was easy nor perfect but teachers who complain all the time often have gone straight from school to university then back to the classroom with no time in the world outside
That is truly epic ignorance. Most teachers commute over an hour to work. You are just embarrassing yourself now.
And I spent three years in academia, three years self employed and a year as a Civil Servant before going into teaching and having to cope with a colleague literally walking out yesterday.
Take your patronising, lying shit elsewhere. It's people like you who give Tories a bad name.
Do teachers really commute that long ? And if so why ?
I'm not arguing but genuinely surprised.
You take the job that is available when you graduate or move higher up the department - unless you are lucky chances are it won't be that local to you.
Tonight David Davis, Boris Johnson, and Jacob Rees-Mogg have all reconfirmed that they are bigger c***s than Mark Reckless.
Careful now, that’s Mays majority you’re being rude about.
Am hoping Labour MPs come to the rescue like they did in 1972 in helping a Tory MP over Europe.
She had better give them something good.
The ability to save the nation and screw Corbyn
Most seem to think they can do the former by voting it down and (somehow) getting Remain, and I don't believe they care enough to do the latter. Their actions have never matched words on that score.
This is going to be top quality entertainment. What's the point in a technical agreement by diplomats if ihe poloroxoanstgey work for are so bitterly divided that the PM refuses to show them the legal advice and needs to plead with them one by one?
How many cabinet resignations can she survive?
Anyone care to offer a translation of poloroxoanstgey, please?
Tonight David Davis, Boris Johnson, and Jacob Rees-Mogg have all reconfirmed that they are bigger c***s than Mark Reckless.
Careful now, that’s Mays majority you’re being rude about.
Am hoping Labour MPs come to the rescue like they did in 1972 in helping a Tory MP over Europe.
She had better give them something good.
The ability to save the nation and screw Corbyn
Most seem to think they can do the former by voting it down and (somehow) getting Remain, and I don't believe they care enough to do the latter. Their actions have never matched words on that score.
Tonight David Davis, Boris Johnson, and Jacob Rees-Mogg have all reconfirmed that they are bigger c***s than Mark Reckless.
Careful now, that’s Mays majority you’re being rude about.
Am hoping Labour MPs come to the rescue like they did in 1972 in helping a Tory MP over Europe.
She had better give them something good.
The ability to save the nation and screw Corbyn
Most seem to think they can do the former by voting it down and (somehow) getting Remain, and I don't believe they care enough to do the latter. Their actions have never matched words on that score.
Did you enjoy Overlord?
I thought it was pretty good fun. The more I think on it the weaker I think perhaps it was, but it's worth the ticket price for 90 minutes of entertainment.
Others have declared themselves Self Employed but earn peanuts.
Like teachers but with more job security?
Teachers on just above the average salary, better than average pensions, once in place very hard to sack and with long holidays?
It is not that bad in the classroom
That's almost as wrong as your claims about ConHome.
Edit - if it's that good, why aren't you a teacher?
Why you still a teacher then?
I did not say life as a teacher was perfect but they are hardly on zero hours contracts or minimum wage or unemployed even if doing supply.
Yes they are on zero hours contracts if doing supply. It's one reason why no government will get rid of them.
Good question, why [am] I still a teacher? I don't know. Nor does the letter of resignation I'm in the process of drafting.
It is actually very easy to get rid of teachers you don't want, contrary to popular belief. Woodhead's lie about bad teachers is still believed even though ironically he was sacked twice himself.
As for 'it's not that bad in the classroom,' how on earth would you know? Pure sophistry.
Most people who do supply are either looking for a permanent role or like the flexibility.
There are far worse jobs than teaching, many lower paid and with far fewer holidays and worse pensions, most teachers do not have long commutes and the associated costs.
I never said teaching was easy nor perfect but teachers who complain all the time often have gone straight from school to university then back to the classroom with no time in the world outside
That is truly epic ignorance. Most teachers commute over an hour to work. You are just embarrassing yourself now.
And I spent three years in academia, three years self employed and a year as a Civil Servant before going into teaching and having to cope with a colleague literally walking out yesterday.
Take your patronising, lying shit elsewhere. It's people like you who give Tories a bad name.
Do teachers really commute that long ? And if so why ?
I'm not arguing but genuinely surprised.
You take the job that is available when you graduate or move higher up the department - unless you are lucky chances are it won't be that local to you.
I understand that but they can then move closer to where they work.
Unless teachers are moving to schools in different towns every few years there's not much to stop them shortening their commute if they wish to.
So Great Britain gets to stay in the customs union but doesn't even have to stay in goods regulation? That means Boris's stuff about us following EU laws isn't true. And Northern Ireland gets to stay out of service regulations for stuff like its critical tourism and filmmaking industries?
Tonight David Davis, Boris Johnson, and Jacob Rees-Mogg have all reconfirmed that they are bigger c***s than Mark Reckless.
Careful now, that’s Mays majority you’re being rude about.
Am hoping Labour MPs come to the rescue like they did in 1972 in helping a Tory MP over Europe.
She had better give them something good.
The ability to save the nation and screw Corbyn
Most seem to think they can do the former by voting it down and (somehow) getting Remain, and I don't believe they care enough to do the latter. Their actions have never matched words on that score.
Did you enjoy Overlord?
I thought it was pretty good fun. The more I think on it the weaker I think perhaps it was, but it's worth the ticket price for 90 minutes of entertainment.
how likely is the average employee to be attacked?
I mean I've had bad days in the office but it's never come to blows...
I know several primary school staff who have been repeatedly attacked. It's getting worse, not least thanks to the decimation of special school provision.
If Labour have any sense, they’ll go for this (I know, I know).
I for one will be glad to see the back of this and get on with my life.
Yes we just need to get on with this narrow leaving, because we voted narrowly to leave.
The ERG hardliners have not conducted themselves well and not just today but previously.
If they wanted to give credibility to the 'Buccaneering Britain' idea they needed to show that they had the maturity and willingness to work hard to make it a success.
Posturing is no substitute to proper preparation and attention to detail.
how likely is the average employee to be attacked?
I mean I've had bad days in the office but it's never come to blows...
Im sorry but I do think teachers moan too much, they have a job for life, an amazing holiday entitlement, and a short working day. Towards the end of the summer term not a lot happens at school. For the last 4 weeks of my nephews time at Junior School he watched DVDs all day as they had run out of things to teach him. Every job has its good bits and its bad bits. In the private sector many peoples jobs are reliant on getting orders each and every week, now that is pressure. I agree that due to the recent parental abdication of discipline that exists in society many children are very difficult to teach. But there are lots of positives in being a teacher which are often forgoten.
There are 15 right-wing Labour MPs who would rather back TMay and the Tories than back a Jeremy Corbyn government.These are what the Tory whips have been focussing on to try to counter loss of support on their side.The Commons arithmetic looks as if all these 15 20thcentury Blairites will achieve is their own deselection although they may have already chosen the creation of a new party.How they vote will be a good indication of just how far this new political party has progressed.They may choose just to keep their heads down as they are being watched so closely.
"Key elements of the deal began to leak in the early evening. The UK was understood to have agreed that an independent arbitration committee will judge when a UK-wide customs backstop could be terminated, comprised of an equal number of British and EU representatives plus an independent element."
Didn't the EU say literally last week that it had to be the ECJ?
There are 15 right-wing Labour MPs who would rather back TMay and the Tories than back a Jeremy Corbyn government.These are what the Tory whips have been focussing on to try to counter loss of support on their side.The Commons arithmetic looks as if all these 15 20thcentury Blairites will achieve is their own deselection although they may have already chosen the creation of a new party.How they vote will be a good indication of just how far this new political party has progressed.They may choose just to keep their heads down as they are being watched so closely.
"Key elements of the deal began to leak in the early evening. The UK was understood to have agreed that an independent arbitration committee will judge when a UK-wide customs backstop could be terminated, comprised of an equal number of British and EU representatives plus an independent element."
Didn't the EU say literally last week that it had to be the ECJ?
Yes and the compromise is reasonable and maybe why Cox approved it
The Guardian has got a good summary and it actually seems a good compromise
It's Theresa May and the UK civil service making all this up as they go along so it's bound to be some unworkable, incoherent solution that nobody will be able to make head nor tail of...
how likely is the average employee to be attacked?
I mean I've had bad days in the office but it's never come to blows...
Im sorry but I do think teachers moan too much, they have a job for life, an amazing holiday entitlement, and a short working day. Towards the end of the summer term not a lot happens at school. For the last 4 weeks of my nephews time at Junior School he watched DVDs all day as they had run out of things to teach him. Every job has its good bits and its bad bits. In the private sector many peoples jobs are reliant on getting orders each and every week, now that is pressure. I agree that due to the recent parental abdication of discipline that exists in society many children are very difficult to teach. But there are lots of positives in being a teacher which are often forgoten.
Every fact you quote is incorrect. Believe me it is bloody annoying having non-teachers explain the hours and holidays teachers have to them. Job for life is utter bollocks, yet always repeated. If your nephew experienced that, Complain to the school.
There are 15 right-wing Labour MPs who would rather back TMay and the Tories than back a Jeremy Corbyn government.These are what the Tory whips have been focussing on to try to counter loss of support on their side.The Commons arithmetic looks as if all these 15 20thcentury Blairites will achieve is their own deselection although they may have already chosen the creation of a new party.How they vote will be a good indication of just how far this new political party has progressed.They may choose just to keep their heads down as they are being watched so closely.
This is not a confidence vote. Anyway the most right wing of Labour MPs (Hoey) has already rejected it.
It’s all a bit pointless speculating till we see some detail. Unless you’re a politician seeking to frame it for your own narrow ends. Even then, some circumspection is advisable.
Yes, the normal rule is that you at least nominally claim that you'll reserve judgement until you've read it.
The Guardian has got a good summary and it actually seems a good compromise
It's Theresa May and the UK civil service making all this up as they go along so it's bound to be some unworkable, incoherent solution that nobody will be able to make head nor tail of...
Have you read it or following the ERG playbook of commenting without even reading
"Key elements of the deal began to leak in the early evening. The UK was understood to have agreed that an independent arbitration committee will judge when a UK-wide customs backstop could be terminated, comprised of an equal number of British and EU representatives plus an independent element."
Didn't the EU say literally last week that it had to be the ECJ?
Ahem, ahem.
Who was it who was saying the EU would back down on this?
It’s all a bit pointless speculating till we see some detail. Unless you’re a politician seeking to frame it for your own narrow ends. Even then, some circumspection is advisable.
Yes, the normal rule is that you at least nominally claim that you'll reserve judgement until you've read it.
Both Johnsons have trashed it before even reading it.
Interesting that he notes it is impossible for it to meet the tests.
Of course - why do you think the tests were set like that?
As has become abundantly clear whatever we do will be economically damaging to the UK and that means to the people who voted to leave because they wanted to be less economically damaged. I can't see how my party will back a deal that makes our people worse off.
And yes, some of those voters may angrily insist they won't be worse off. But if we stood back and did nothing then we'd be getting the same political lynching the Tories face.
Interesting that he notes it is impossible for it to meet the tests.
Before he has seen it
Well that's par for the course for everyone.
More relevant is whether potential Labour rebels are already rejecting the deal, which apparently some already have, in which case an already slim chance of approval is already gone.
It’s all a bit pointless speculating till we see some detail. Unless you’re a politician seeking to frame it for your own narrow ends. Even then, some circumspection is advisable.
Yes, the normal rule is that you at least nominally claim that you'll reserve judgement until you've read it.
Both Johnsons have trashed it before even reading it.
What is it with the Johnson family that makes them look so foolish
Interesting that he notes it is impossible for it to meet the tests.
Of course - why do you think the tests were set like that?
As has become abundantly clear whatever we do will be economically damaging to the UK and that means to the people who voted to leave because they wanted to be less economically damaged. I can't see how my party will back a deal that makes our people worse off.
And yes, some of those voters may angrily insist they won't be worse off. But if we stood back and did nothing then we'd be getting the same political lynching the Tories face.
I know the tests were impossible, I'm surprised even a commentator admits it.
I don't have an issue with people voting against what they think is a bad deal. But whatever they might claim about not allowing it to happen, voting down the deal does dramatically raise the chance of no deal and an even worse economic situation. So long as they admit they are increasing that risk, though they hope to avoid it, I would be content. Pretending it would be simple to do a different deal, or remain, is no different to leavers who said it would all be easy. If the deal is bad and is to be voted down it must be with eyes open that no deal might happen whatever they want.
Interesting that he notes it is impossible for it to meet the tests.
Before he has seen it
Well that's par for the course for everyone.
More relevant is whether potential Labour rebels are already rejecting the deal, which apparently some already have, in which case an already slim chance of approval is already gone.
I think that is rather premature. This is a fast moving story and from here anything could happen including it passing into law
Others have declared themselves Self Employed but earn peanuts.
Like teachers but with more job security?
Teachers on just above the average salary, better than average pensions, once in place very hard to sack and with long holidays?
It is not that bad in the classroom
That's almost as wrong as your claims about ConHome.
Edit - if it's that good, why aren't you a teacher?
Why you still a teacher then?
I did not say life as a teacher was perfect but they are hardly on zero hours contracts or minimum wage or unemployed even if doing supply.
Yes they are on zero hours contracts if doing supply. It's try.
Most people who do supply are either looking for a permanent role or like the flexibility.
There are far worse jobs than teaching, many lower paid and with far fewer holidays and worse pensions, most teachers do not have long commutes and the associated costs.
I never said teaching was easy nor perfect but teachers who complain all the time often have gone straight from school to university then back to the classroom with no time in the world outside
That is truly epic ignorance. Most teachers commute over an hour to work. You are just embarrassing yourself now.
And I spent three years in academia, three years self employed and a year as a Civil Servant before going into teaching and having to cope with a colleague literally walking out yesterday.
Take your patronising, lying shit elsewhere. It's people like you who give Tories a bad name.
Commute time is in the top 2 drawers for those becoming teachers
Academia still involves teaching and the civil service is still public sector, albeit you have done some self employed work.
You can insult me if you wish, I did not insult you.
All I said was there are worse jobs than teaching and provided some of the positives like long holidays and the pension, I did not say it was easy or perfect especially with disciplinary issues but like some teachers you seem to have an attitude that it is the worst job in the world and must be endlessly complained about
Interesting that he notes it is impossible for it to meet the tests.
Before he has seen it
Well that's par for the course for everyone.
More relevant is whether potential Labour rebels are already rejecting the deal, which apparently some already have, in which case an already slim chance of approval is already gone.
I think that is rather premature. This is a fast moving story and from here anything could happen including it passing into law
Yes I may be proven wrong. But several dozen Labour MPs at least will vote with the government on this? It's highly implausible.
Frankly it should be more appealing if they mean what they say about no deal, since the chances of the government collapsing on its own after a deal is pretty high given the ERG and DUP fury that is reported. So the fear of propping up a Tory government (which in any case should not be a primary consideration, if they think the deal is better than the alternative) should not be such a big worry.
Interesting that he notes it is impossible for it to meet the tests.
Before he has seen it
Well that's par for the course for everyone.
More relevant is whether potential Labour rebels are already rejecting the deal, which apparently some already have, in which case an already slim chance of approval is already gone.
The difference is now Labour will have to give an actual reason for rejecting it, which is different than saying its bound to be a bad deal so they will reject it. Keir Starmer struggled with that one on Channel 4 earlier. He will now have to answer what is bad about it and what Labour would do different, especially as the EU will not comprimise any further.
Interesting that he notes it is impossible for it to meet the tests.
Before he has seen it
Well that's par for the course for everyone.
More relevant is whether potential Labour rebels are already rejecting the deal, which apparently some already have, in which case an already slim chance of approval is already gone.
The difference is now Labour will have to give an actual reason for rejecting it, which is different than saying its bound to be a bad deal so they will reject it. Keir Starmer struggled with that one on Channel 4 earlier. He will now have to answer what is bad about it and what Labour would do different, especially as the EU will not compromise any further.
That's not much of an obstacle. They don't need a great reason, just a reason plausible enough to their supporters. A promise that they could do better without explaining how they would manage that would be a cynical thing to do, but it will work for most of the MPs, and combined with those outright opposed it is enough.
Interesting that he notes it is impossible for it to meet the tests.
Before he has seen it
Well that's par for the course for everyone.
More relevant is whether potential Labour rebels are already rejecting the deal, which apparently some already have, in which case an already slim chance of approval is already gone.
I think that is rather premature. This is a fast moving story and from here anything could happen including it passing into law
Yes I may be proven wrong. But several dozen Labour MPs at least will vote with the government on this? It's highly implausible.
Frankly it should be more appealing if they mean what they say about no deal, since the chances of the government collapsing on its own after a deal is pretty high given the ERG and DUP fury that is reported. So the fear of propping up a Tory government (which in any case should not be a primary consideration, if they think the deal is better than the alternative) should not be such a big worry.
Haven't heard from Mann, Flint, Nandy, Snell or any of the other potential backers
Interesting that he notes it is impossible for it to meet the tests.
Before he has seen it
Well that's par for the course for everyone.
More relevant is whether potential Labour rebels are already rejecting the deal, which apparently some already have, in which case an already slim chance of approval is already gone.
The difference is now Labour will have to give an actual reason for rejecting it, which is different than saying its bound to be a bad deal so they will reject it. Keir Starmer struggled with that one on Channel 4 earlier. He will now have to answer what is bad about it and what Labour would do different, especially as the EU will not compromise any further.
That's not much of an obstacle. They don't need a great reason, just a reason plausible enough to their supporters. A promise that they could do better without explaining how they would manage that would be a cynical thing to do, but it will work for most of the MPs, and combined with those outright opposed it is enough.
They need to be plausible to the electorate, not just their supporters, and this deal is not hypothetical, it is real and in text.
Interesting that he notes it is impossible for it to meet the tests.
Before he has seen it
Well that's par for the course for everyone.
More relevant is whether potential Labour rebels are already rejecting the deal, which apparently some already have, in which case an already slim chance of approval is already gone.
The difference is now Labour will have to give an actual reason for rejecting it, which is different than saying its bound to be a bad deal so they will reject it. Keir Starmer struggled with that one on Channel 4 earlier. He will now have to answer what is bad about it and what Labour would do different, especially as the EU will not compromise any further.
That's not much of an obstacle. They don't need a great reason, just a reason plausible enough to their supporters. A promise that they could do better without explaining how they would manage that would be a cynical thing to do, but it will work for most of the MPs, and combined with those outright opposed it is enough.
I think the public mood is for a deal to be agreed, they will have to have a very good reason for opposing it.
These are momentous days and the decisions being taken will have long-lasting ramifications.”
Yes they are. Anyone who thinks the deal is necessary to avoid negative long lasting ramifications should vote for it, even if it means propping up the hated Tories. Anyone who thinks the deal will cause long lasting negative ramifications should vote against it, even if it means bringing down the beloved Tory government.
Interesting that he notes it is impossible for it to meet the tests.
Before he has seen it
Well that's par for the course for everyone.
More relevant is whether potential Labour rebels are already rejecting the deal, which apparently some already have, in which case an already slim chance of approval is already gone.
The difference is now Labour will have to give an actual reason for rejecting it, which is different than saying its bound to be a bad deal so they will reject it. Keir Starmer struggled with that one on Channel 4 earlier. He will now have to answer what is bad about it and what Labour would do different, especially as the EU will not compromise any further.
That's not much of an obstacle. They don't need a great reason, just a reason plausible enough to their supporters. A promise that they could do better without explaining how they would manage that would be a cynical thing to do, but it will work for most of the MPs, and combined with those outright opposed it is enough.
They need to be plausible to the electorate, not just their supporters
Why is that? There will be no shortage of Tories making the case to the electorate that the deal is a big pile of steaming dinosaur poo, so a flimsy Labour argument saying the same will seem relatively plausible by default -people will think, "if even the Tories are saying it is crap, and voting it down will (somehow) get a Labour government in power, or we might get to remain after all(somehow), then definitely Labour should vote it down". Add in the lack of political benefit to Labour of backing it, and their course seems obvious.
Though funnily enough I think the Labour strategy of masterly inactivity works out best if the deal passes and they don't get a GE - they can insist both that they would have remained if necessary and they would have gotten a good deal if they'd been allowed.
Interesting that he notes it is impossible for it to meet the tests.
Before he has seen it
Well that's par for the course for everyone.
More relevant is whether potential Labour rebels are already rejecting the deal, which apparently some already have, in which case an already slim chance of approval is already gone.
The difference is now Labour will have to give an actual reason for rejecting it, which is different than saying its bound to be a bad deal so they will reject it. Keir Starmer struggled with that one on Channel 4 earlier. He will now have to answer what is bad about it and what Labour would do different, especially as the EU will not compromise any further.
That's not much of an obstacle. They don't need a great reason, just a reason plausible enough to their supporters. A promise that they could do better without explaining how they would manage that would be a cynical thing to do, but it will work for most of the MPs, and combined with those outright opposed it is enough.
I think the public mood is for a deal to be agreed, they will have to have a very good reason for opposing it.
I think the public mood is wanting to see an end to it, but certain to dislike whatever end occurs because of the splits in desired outcomes, and because people on left and right, leave and remain, will be trashing it.
Comments
Anyone that thinks BOTH crashing over the cliff edge AND a Corbyn government wouldn't be devastating for this country is completely without mental faculty. We would be a basket case of an economy just as the next global recession hits, ripe for Trumpist populism on both sides.
I'm having rather a tough time at the moment as you probably guessed and I just snapped.
I think par is Leadsom, Mordaunt, people like that.
I'm not arguing but genuinely surprised.
I'm going to go and simmer down somewhere else before I say what I really think of HYUFD and probably get a ban hammer.
Have a nice evening.
13-14 weeks is a lot of holiday, more than double what an average worker gets.
College and University lecturers get even more.
I really hope you are able to resolve your problems soon. All the best
I've found tearing the poop out of something very therapeutic.
I've commented before that teachers never seem particularly happy, but I'm inclined to take the word of a teacher over a non-teacher on such matters.
An insider tells me there may be a few surprises in the text..let's just wait and see.
Unless teachers are moving to schools in different towns every few years there's not much to stop them shortening their commute if they wish to.
If Labour have any sense, they’ll go for this (I know, I know).
I for one will be glad to see the back of this and get on with my life.
So Great Britain gets to stay in the customs union but doesn't even have to stay in goods regulation? That means Boris's stuff about us following EU laws isn't true. And Northern Ireland gets to stay out of service regulations for stuff like its critical tourism and filmmaking industries?
This is a much better deal than I thought.
Secondary school staff are three times more likely to be physically attacked at work than the average UK employee.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-43290587
I mean I've had bad days in the office but it's never come to blows...
If they wanted to give credibility to the 'Buccaneering Britain' idea they needed to show that they had the maturity and willingness to work hard to make it a success.
Posturing is no substitute to proper preparation and attention to detail.
Didn't the EU say literally last week that it had to be the ECJ?
NI stays in the above plus goods regulation covered by GFA.
Job for life is utter bollocks, yet always repeated.
If your nephew experienced that, Complain to the school.
Who was it who was saying the EU would back down on this?
As has become abundantly clear whatever we do will be economically damaging to the UK and that means to the people who voted to leave because they wanted to be less economically damaged. I can't see how my party will back a deal that makes our people worse off.
And yes, some of those voters may angrily insist they won't be worse off. But if we stood back and did nothing then we'd be getting the same political lynching the Tories face.
More relevant is whether potential Labour rebels are already rejecting the deal, which apparently some already have, in which case an already slim chance of approval is already gone.
I don't have an issue with people voting against what they think is a bad deal. But whatever they might claim about not allowing it to happen, voting down the deal does dramatically raise the chance of no deal and an even worse economic situation. So long as they admit they are increasing that risk, though they hope to avoid it, I would be content. Pretending it would be simple to do a different deal, or remain, is no different to leavers who said it would all be easy. If the deal is bad and is to be voted down it must be with eyes open that no deal might happen whatever they want.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/schoolsweek.co.uk/commuting-time-tops-list-of-what-attracts-teachers-to-job/amp/
Academia still involves teaching and the civil service is still public sector, albeit you have done some self employed work.
You can insult me if you wish, I did not insult you.
All I said was there are worse jobs than teaching and provided some of the positives like long holidays and the pension, I did not say it was easy or perfect especially with disciplinary issues but like some teachers you seem to have an attitude that it is the worst job in the world and must be endlessly complained about
Frankly it should be more appealing if they mean what they say about no deal, since the chances of the government collapsing on its own after a deal is pretty high given the ERG and DUP fury that is reported. So the fear of propping up a Tory government (which in any case should not be a primary consideration, if they think the deal is better than the alternative) should not be such a big worry.
Yes they are. Anyone who thinks the deal is necessary to avoid negative long lasting ramifications should vote for it, even if it means propping up the hated Tories. Anyone who thinks the deal will cause long lasting negative ramifications should vote against it, even if it means bringing down the beloved Tory government.
Though funnily enough I think the Labour strategy of masterly inactivity works out best if the deal passes and they don't get a GE - they can insist both that they would have remained if necessary and they would have gotten a good deal if they'd been allowed.