I just love how butthurt right wingers get at mass protests. Stamping their feet and sulking in an endlessly unattractive petulant self-pity.
As opposed to the two plus years of stamping their feet and sulking in an endlessly unattractive petulant self-pity-fest of Remainderdom?
See, look! You're doing it right now!
The lack of self-awareness of petulant Brexiteers when they're at their most objectionably self-pitying is kinda adorable.
I have to admit, though. I do *understand* why you're so angry. The remainers have been trying to tell you for years what was going to happen, and you ignored them.
And then the remainers were proved absolutely correct and the chaos unfolded exactly as everyone told you they would. Nobody likes being proved so hilariously, catastrophically, consistently and publicly wrong.
I feel your pain.
Angry? Nope.
You'll know when we're angry. We'll quietly, with little fuss, go and eject from power all the arseholes who haven't learnt to do as they were told....
You're pi**ed off because you know full well that the size of that demo will encourage the EU 27 to dig their heals in further and the further we move towards No Deal the more likely it is that the whole project will fail.
You are pleased that the EU might seek to actually act punitively against your fellow countrymen?
No but I am interested in seeing the project collapse under the weight of its own contradictions.
My main problem with a second referendum is that I have yet to meet anyone on either side who would vote any differently. There are a number of younger people who would vote in this one but I'm not sure that there'd be enough to tip the balance. it would remain very close and not resolve the situation in the long term.
Do we have any data underpinning this? Surely there comes a point when young smart folk will tip the balance in favour of Remain assuming a certain attrition of the population and everything remaining the same.
Something I've been meaning to do if I ever get bored enough is to compare cohorts in time in Mori opinion polls. So take the 55-64 segment in the latest Mori poll and compare it to the 45-54 segment exactly ten years ago, the 35-44 segment twenty years ago and the 25-34 segment thirty years ago. This is the same cohort at different times. You could then do the same with each poll for the last ten years.
I suspect the results would be instructive and put to bed this idea of cohorts holding fixed political views. But it would be a bit of work - even if the format of the Mori data tables hasn't changed in forty years.
The march will be well covered in the Sunday papers.
And forgotten about on Monday.
The people who were there won't forget and they will be coming after the Tories.
They will forget. I had lots of friends on it. I asked one how it was. He said it was "fun".
It was a fun day out. It will be forgotten. My friend is a Tory and there is no way he would vote for Corbyn, unless Corbyn was promising a new referendum and Labour was campaigning for Remain. Even then he'd waver.
The lack of self-awareness of petulant Brexiteers when they're at their most objectionably self-pitying is kinda adorable.
I have to admit, though. I do *understand* why you're so angry. The remainers have been trying to tell you for years what was going to happen, and you ignored them.
And then the remainers were proved absolutely correct and the chaos unfolded exactly as everyone told you they would. Nobody likes being proved so hilariously, catastrophically, consistently and publicly wrong.
I feel your pain.
What "chaos" ? I've not seen any "chaos" except for Remain politicians and the establishment throwing an almighty strop and trying every trick in the book to thrwart the vote.
Other than that everything has been fine... Including the economic numbers which have all gone in the right direction over the past few months.
We haven't left yet and if anything there is a growing expectation that we will probably remain in the EU or at worst BINO.
We were told that there would be an immediate year long recession following a Leave vote.
If you want a visual reminder here's Richard Branson claiming 3,000 jobs losses already on the Monday after the Referendum:
I just love how butthurt right wingers get at mass protests. Stamping their feet and sulking in an endlessly unattractive petulant self-pity.
As opposed to the two plus years of stamping their feet and sulking in an endlessly unattractive petulant self-pity-fest of Remainderdom?
See, look! You're doing it right now!
The lack of self-awareness of petulant Brexiteers when they're at their most objectionably self-pitying is kinda adorable.
I have to admit, though. I do *understand* why you're so angry. The remainers have been trying to tell you for years what was going to happen, and you ignored them.
And then the remainers were proved absolutely correct and the chaos unfolded exactly as everyone told you they would. Nobody likes being proved so hilariously, catastrophically, consistently and publicly wrong.
I feel your pain.
You've proven nothing. It's only your supreme arrogance that leads you to conclude that.
The EU and the ultra-Remainers have learnt nothing and forgotten nothing. So there will be no progress and no peace.
Very sad
Amusingly IF, (a big if), there was a second vote and remain won, they would be screaming that this settles the matter for at least a (non Scottish) generation.
Yeah they actually think that if Remain should win a second referendum that Leavers will shut up and go away - As the Fireplace salesman once said - Good luck with that after the way Remainers have behaved ever since 2016...
Demographics though favour Remain, Leavers really need this Brexit to succeed as this may be their last chance, if they push too hard and demand No Deal they may blow it and we will not actually leave the EU at all
I think this demographic argument is spurious to say the least. It seems to me the older you get the more eurosceptic you become. A lot of the oldies voted yes in 73 and then voted out. the cut off where leave was ascendant was about 40 odd. Seems to me experience of the real world i.e the jobs market, healthcare, schooling mean that people become on average more eurosceptic.
Not quite true, Remain won 70% of 18 to 24s, 60% of 25 to 34s and 55% of 35 to 44s, so plenty of workers voted Remain.
I'm off. Reminder that qualifying, because of stupid reasons, starts at 10pm. Pre-race ramble will be up tomorrow. Let's hope the Finns have a splendid time in Texas.
Nothing will happen. Absolutely nothing. It won't be significant in any way. I mean, what do you feel right now? Nothing. Right?
As I sit here, and the Camden partygoers rock to the pub, and the students queue for the Jazz cafe, and the homeless Roma beg outside Whole Foods, it feels as if there had never been a #PeoplesVoteMarch at all.
It is poignant, how life moves on so swiftly. So brutally.
If we crash out with No Deal though there will soon be millions on the streets demanding EUref2, getting half a million on the streets of London for EUref2 today was a warning shot that we need a Deal
It will be all over by then though, they would need to start a re-join campaign which could take years and will the EU even still exist in say 20 years time?
Also there would need to be at least 17,410,742 of them.
No, if the negotiations end in November with No Deal that gives 4 months until Brexit day for EUref2 mass demonstrations and indeed an EU ref2 leading to a Remain vote before we are actually due to leave. Brexit can still be cancelled if it is seen by a majority of voters as on unacceptable terms.
To be honest with 40 Tory MPs led by Amber Rudd ready to vote with the opposition for EUref2 over No Deal they would probably get it.
Plus don't forget 16, 141, 241 voted Remain too
So who proposes the legislation?
Backbenchers, the opposition etc.
However given May has apparently told Varadkar already in private she backs a permanent backstop for NI I doubt it will be needed, May will get the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period.
I just love how butthurt right wingers get at mass protests. Stamping their feet and sulking in an endlessly unattractive petulant self-pity.
As opposed to the two plus years of stamping their feet and sulking in an endlessly unattractive petulant self-pity-fest of Remainderdom?
See, look! You're doing it right now!
The lack of self-awareness of petulant Brexiteers when they're at their most objectionably self-pitying is kinda adorable.
I have to admit, though. I do *understand* why you're so angry. The remainers have been trying to tell you for years what was going to happen, and you ignored them.
And then the remainers were proved absolutely correct and the chaos unfolded exactly as everyone told you they would. Nobody likes being proved so hilariously, catastrophically, consistently and publicly wrong.
I feel your pain.
You've proven nothing. It's only your supreme arrogance that leads you to conclude that.
The EU and the ultra-Remainers have learnt nothing and forgotten nothing. So there will be no progress and no peace.
Very sad
Amusingly IF, (a big if), there was a second vote and remain won, they would be screaming that this settles the matter for at least a (non Scottish) generation.
Yeah they actually think that if Remain should win a second referendum that Leavers will shut up and go away - As the Fireplace salesman once said - Good luck with that after the way Remainers have behaved ever since 2016...
Demographics though favour Remain, Leavers really need this Brexit to succeed as this may be their last chance, if they push too hard and demand No Deal they may blow it and we will not actually leave the EU at all
They are very, very close to blowing it already I think. A satisfactory deal seems almost impossible and without one a second referendum will become unavoidable.
The sensible thing is to agree a SM+CU backstop for NI which voters there want and which the EU demands for a FTA and which protects the GFA and then longer term push for a FTA for GB which most voters there want.
If Tory Brexiteers and the DUP manage to block the backstop they risk no Brexit at all
Do not underestimate this march, my right-wing friend!
Learn the lessons from Tony Blair and Iraq.
Did he call off the invasion then?
oh
But his majority was slashed by a 100 2 years later and he had to leave No 10 4 years later
Nope! he wasn't obliged to leave at all and could have carried on until 2010 and who's to say he wouldn't have won again, Brown almost did.
Blair chose to honour the Granita pact which wasn't legally binding and had over to Brown as they had agreed after the death of John Smith.
No that is wrong. Blair announced before the 2005 election that it would be his last election as leader and he was forced to name a departure date by unrest in the PLP in the Autumn of 2006. The immediate cause of this was his attitude toward Israeli military action in Lebanon but underlying tensions with Brown and the legacy of Iraq also played a part.
He did say that before the 2005 election but he could have announced that he'd changed his mind replaced Brown and still have carried on his majority, although reduced was big enough to ride out any unrest on the backbenches.
It's harder for Labour MPs to mount a leadership challenge against a sitting Labour PM than it is for the Tories to do it against a Tory one.
The lack of self-awareness of petulant Brexiteers when they're at their most objectionably self-pitying is kinda adorable.
I have to admit, though. I do *understand* why you're so angry. The remainers have been trying to tell you for years what was going to happen, and you ignored them.
And then the remainers were proved absolutely correct and the chaos unfolded exactly as everyone told you they would. Nobody likes being proved so hilariously, catastrophically, consistently and publicly wrong.
I feel your pain.
What "chaos" ? I've not seen any "chaos" except for Remain politicians and the establishment throwing an almighty strop and trying every trick in the book to thrwart the vote.
Other than that everything has been fine... Including the economic numbers which have all gone in the right direction over the past few months.
We haven't left yet and if anything there is a growing expectation that we will probably remain in the EU or at worst BINO.
Let me get this straight. You have voluntarily opted to work in a field which requires 3 years of unpaid voluntary work, after 3 years at university, leading to a salary that, although not very low by National standards, does not permit a very good standard of living in London. You have freely chosen to do this, but complain about the consequences of your choices.
This is what irritates people about millennials.
I'm not complaining about the consequence of choosing a particular career (I chose what I wanted to do on the basis that it was something I enjoyed, not because it would pay me enough to buy a penthouse in Mayfair and avocado on toast for breakfast every day). I'm saying that there are significant problems with the economy and now there is a disconnect between house prices and income. Regardless of how irritating/entitled I am for hoping to one day not have to pay half my income in rent, my moral failings don't really make a difference to the fact that rent is high, house prices are high, but wages and job security are low.
The ironic thing is, when I was at university, I was being told by people with their own homes and secure careers that the best way to show I was employable was to show I could do the job even without being paid for it. Now I've done years of voluntary work to finally break though into a narrow field, I'm being told that working for free to follow a passion is a demonstration of entitlement.
I just love how butthurt right wingers get at mass protests. Stamping their feet and sulking in an endlessly unattractive petulant self-pity.
As opposed to the two plus years of stamping their feet and sulking in an endlessly unattractive petulant self-pity-fest of Remainderdom?
See, look! You're doing it right now!
The lack of self-awareness of petulant Brexiteers when they're at their most objectionably self-pitying is kinda adorable.
I have to admit, though. I do *understand* why you're so angry. The remainers have been trying to tell you for years what was going to happen, and you ignored them.
And then the remainers were proved absolutely correct and the chaos unfolded exactly as everyone told you they would. Nobody likes being proved so hilariously, catastrophically, consistently and publicly wrong.
I feel your pain.
You've proven nothing. It's only your supreme arrogance that leads you to conclude that.
The EU and the ultra-Remainers have learnt nothing and forgotten nothing. So there will be no progress and no peace.
Very sad
Amusingly IF, (a big if), there was a second vote and remain won, they would be screaming that this settles the matter for at least a (non Scottish) generation.
ed ever since 2016...
Demographics though fat all
Nope! wrong again, not your day is it? There was a referendum in 1975 which was heavily in favour of remain, but we know that people over 59 voted heavily for leave in 2016 so they must have matured into leave voters.
Everybody has grown two years older since the 2016 referendum and some of the remain voters will have again matured into leavers cancelling out the new voters who have become of voting age since and who might be more likely to vote remain.
Nope, it is yet again you who are wrong. Had it been a Common Market still it would have been Remain, Leave won narrowly 52% to 48% on the basis of a deal or even staying in the SM over No Deal.
The polling shows only 45% of the country backs No Deal, with 55% backing Remain if that is the alternative, if Brexiteers are so stupid as to push No Deal they will enable Remainers to overturn a narrow Leave EUref win of 52% Leave 48% Remain and cancel Brexit
It is hardliners like you and Archer who will destroy Brexit rather than engage in a pragmatic Brexit that sustains a longterm majority
Nothing will happen. Absolutely nothing. It won't be significant in any way. I mean, what do you feel right now? Nothing. Right?
As I sit here, and the Camden partygoers rock to the pub, and the students queue for the Jazz cafe, and the homeless Roma beg outside Whole Foods, it feels as if there had never been a #PeoplesVoteMarch at all.
It is poignant, how life moves on so swiftly. So brutally.
If we crash out with No Deal though there will soon be millions on the streets demanding EUref2, getting half a million on the streets of London for EUref2 today was a warning shot that we need a Deal
It will be all over by then though, they would need to start a re-join campaign which could take years and will the EU even still exist in say 20 years time?
Also there would need to be at least 17,410,742 of them.
No, if the negotiations end in November with No Deal that gives 4 months until Brexit day for EUref2 mass demonstrations and indeed an EU ref2 leading to a Remain vote before we are actually due to leave. Brexit can still be cancelled if it is seen by a majority of voters as on unacceptable terms.
To be honest with 40 Tory MPs led by Amber Rudd ready to vote with the opposition for EUref2 over No Deal they would probably get it.
Plus don't forget 16, 141, 241 voted Remain too
So who proposes the legislation?
Backbenchers, the opposition etc.
However given May has apparently told Varadkar already in private she backs a permanent backstop for NI I doubt it will be needed, May will get the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period.
They can’t propose legislation (setting aside private members bills which are easy to kill)
Nothing will happen. Absolutely nothing. It won't be significant in any way. I mean, what do you feel right now? Nothing. Right?
As I sit here, and the Camden partygoers rock to the pub, and the students queue for the Jazz cafe, and the homeless Roma beg outside Whole Foods, it feels as if there had never been a #PeoplesVoteMarch at all.
It is poignant, how life moves on so swiftly. So brutally.
If we crash out with No Deal though there will soon be millions on the streets demanding EUref2, getting half a million on the streets of London for EUref2 today was a warning shot that we need a Deal
It will be all over by then though, they would need to start a re-join campaign which could take years and will the EU even still exist in say 20 years time?
Also there would need to be at least 17,410,742 of them.
No, if the negotiations end in November with No Deal that gives 4 months until Brexit day for EUref2 mass demonstrations and indeed an EU ref2 leading to a Remain vote before we are actually due to leave. Brexit can still be cancelled if it is seen by a majority of voters as on unacceptable terms.
To be honest with 40 Tory MPs led by Amber Rudd ready to vote with the opposition for EUref2 over No Deal they would probably get it.
Plus don't forget 16, 141, 241 voted Remain too
So who proposes the legislation?
Backbenchers, the opposition etc.
However given May has apparently told Varadkar already in private she backs a permanent backstop for NI I doubt it will be needed, May will get the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period.
They can’t propose legislation (setting aside private members bills which are easy to kill)
The legislation will probably have Dominic Raab's name on it.
People tend to overthink Brexit because it's so complex, but in terms of the outcome from Article 50 it's very simple. There are only three possibilities: no deal, a ratified Withdrawal Agreement or Remain. Parliament doesn't have a mandate to decide to Remain, so it has to go back to the people otherwise they just face a Hobson's choice and parliamentary sovereignty is meaningless.
The lack of self-awareness of petulant Brexiteers when they're at their most objectionably self-pitying is kinda adorable.
I have to admit, though. I do *understand* why you're so angry. The remainers have been trying to tell you for years what was going to happen, and you ignored them.
And then the remainers were proved absolutely correct and the chaos unfolded exactly as everyone told you they would. Nobody likes being proved so hilariously, catastrophically, consistently and publicly wrong.
I feel your pain.
What "chaos" ? I've not seen any "chaos" except for Remain politicians and the establishment throwing an almighty strop and trying every trick in the book to thrwart the vote.
Other than that everything has been fine... Including the economic numbers which have all gone in the right direction over the past few months.
We haven't left yet and if anything there is a growing expectation that we will probably remain in the EU or at worst BINO.
We were told that there would be an immediate year long recession following a Leave vote.
If you want a visual reminder here's Richard Branson claiming 3,000 jobs losses already on the Monday after the Referendum:
The lack of self-awareness of petulant Brexiteers when they're at their most objectionably self-pitying is kinda adorable.
I have to admit, though. I do *understand* why you're so angry. The remainers have been trying to tell you for years what was going to happen, and you ignored them.
And then the remainers were proved absolutely correct and the chaos unfolded exactly as everyone told you they would. Nobody likes being proved so hilariously, catastrophically, consistently and publicly wrong.
I feel your pain.
What "chaos" ? I've not seen any "chaos" except for Remain politicians and the establishment throwing an almighty strop and trying every trick in the book to thrwart the vote.
Other than that everything has been fine... Including the economic numbers which have all gone in the right direction over the past few months.
We haven't left yet and if anything there is a growing expectation that we will probably remain in the EU or at worst BINO.
And then the remainers were proved absolutely correct and the chaos unfolded exactly as everyone told you they would.
So again I ask, what "chaos" has there actually been?
That drop in GBP, although not "chaotic" by any definition, was painful and costly: at one point I had about £3K in my back pocket. It will have long-term implications, although I acknowledge that long-term results that are unnoticed do not meet the usual definition of bad effects.
"My father was a diplomat. He earned a modest Civil Service salary. But my mother had inherited a few thousand pounds from her late father. So in 1964 they used that money to buy a five-bedroom detached house opposite Kew Gardens in south-west London. It cost £8,000."
' It has been at least 20 years since I realised that, even though I was earning more than my father had ever made in his life, I could never hope to afford to live in a house like the one I grew up in, nor give my children the kind of education he provided for me and my sisters. '
What we've been seeing at various speeds and to varying extents around the country is middle class regression.
The author is a writer who was educated at Eton and had a detached house in Richmond Park.
He lives in what he describes as a 'rambling old cottage with a lovely garden' near Chichester and his children went to a local primary and a West Sussex comprehensive, Bishop Luffa, rated Outstanding. Please forgive me if I do not shed too many tears over this tale of woe and downward mobility, it is hardly Dickensian!
But it is a fact that home ownership levels have fallen significantly among the young during the last two decades.
Though not as quickly as student debts have risen.
We London middle classes aged 45 and under have just had to reduce our expectations.
My mate, a QC, lives in a slightly cramped house in Hackney. It’s considered fancy by local standards but nevertheless, it’s Hackney. I live down the road. We hang in a group of corporate lawyers who have all had to make do somehow.
A generation ago, we’d all be in 5-beds in Hampstead.
I was born in a beautiful detached house in Kensington. I can barely afford a semi in zone 2 these days...
I've never been able to afford anything much above a hovel in London. Which may explain why I live in the leafy suburbs in the Southwest .
The march will be well covered in the Sunday papers.
And forgotten about on Monday.
The people who were there won't forget and they will be coming after the Tories.
They will forget. I had lots of friends on it. I asked one how it was. He said it was "fun".
It was a fun day out. It will be forgotten. My friend is a Tory and there is no way he would vote for Corbyn, unless Corbyn was promising a new referendum and Labour was campaigning for Remain. Even then he'd waver.
Nothing will happen. Absolutely nothing. It won't be significant in any way. I mean, what do you feel right now? Nothing. Right?
As I sit here, and the Camden partygoers rock to the pub, and the students queue for the Jazz cafe, and the homeless Roma beg outside Whole Foods, it feels as if there had never been a #PeoplesVoteMarch at all.
It is poignant, how life moves on so swiftly. So brutally.
If we crash out with No Deal though there will soon be millions on the streets demanding EUref2, getting half a million on the streets of London for EUref2 today was a warning shot that we need a Deal
It will be all over by then though, they would need to start a re-join campaign which could take years and will the EU even still exist in say 20 years time?
Also there would need to be at least 17,410,742 of them.
No, if the negotiations end in November with No Deal that gives 4 months until Brexit day for EUref2 mass demonstrations and indeed an EU ref2 leading to a Remain vote before we are actually due to leave. Brexit can still be cancelled if it is seen by a majority of voters as on unacceptable terms.
To be honest with 40 Tory MPs led by Amber Rudd ready to vote with the opposition for EUref2 over No Deal they would probably get it.
Plus don't forget 16, 141, 241 voted Remain too
So who proposes the legislation?
Backbenchers, the opposition etc.
However given May has apparently told Varadkar already in private she backs a permanent backstop for NI I doubt it will be needed, May will get the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period.
They can’t propose legislation (setting aside private members bills which are easy to kill)
If private members bills have a clear majority of the House as EUref2 would in the event of No Deal they would be much more difficult to kill. If No Deal the Government will also not be able to get anything through, Soubry, Grieve etc will filibuster every government bill until they get the EUref2 vote they want
I just love how butthurt right wingers get at mass protests. Stamping their feet and sulking in an endlessly unattractive petulant self-pity.
As opposed to the two plus years of stamping their feet and sulking in an endlessly unattractive petulant self-pity-fest of Remainderdom?
See, look! You're doing it right now!
The lack of self-awareness of petulant Brexiteers when they're at their most objectionably self-pitying is kinda adorable.
I have to admit, though. I do *understand* why you're so angry. The remainers have been trying to tell you for years what was going to happen, and you ignored them.
And then the remainers were proved absolutely correct and the chaos unfolded exactly as everyone told you they would. Nobody likes being proved so hilariously, catastrophically, consistently and publicly wrong.
I feel your pain.
Angry? Nope.
You'll know when we're angry. We'll quietly, with little fuss, go and eject from power all the arseholes who haven't learnt to do as they were told....
You're pi**ed off because you know full well that the size of that demo will encourage the EU 27 to dig their heals in further and the further we move towards No Deal the more likely it is that the whole project will fail.
You are pleased that the EU might seek to actually act punitively against your fellow countrymen?
No but I am interested in seeing the project collapse under the weight of its own contradictions.
The EU will fall apart in time - Why else are they so against letting anyone get away ?
Like Communism and certain belief systems, its all a one way door.
The march will be well covered in the Sunday papers.
And forgotten about on Monday.
The people who were there won't forget and they will be coming after the Tories.
They will forget. I had lots of friends on it. I asked one how it was. He said it was "fun".
It was a fun day out. It will be forgotten. My friend is a Tory and there is no way he would vote for Corbyn, unless Corbyn was promising a new referendum and Labour was campaigning for Remain. Even then he'd waver.
He may not vote Labour, he may vote LD
Possibly. I've just checked his constituency and it has a Tory majority of 7,000 over Labour, so if a large chunk of pissed off Remainer Tories went LD it might just fall. But I doubt it.
Anyway I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing about the optics of marches.
Very few marches change British politics (we've been arguing this here and on Twitter all day). Unfortunately for the many Remainery marchers today, it all looked like a jolly weekend in rich sunny London, for lots of nice Guardian readers, and I doubt it will have swayed Leave voters one iota. It did move Guy Verhoefstadt, so there's that.
As I said before the march, they should have held it in a dour, Leave voting area in the north. If they could have persuaded hundreds of thousands of people from across Britain to go to the Nissan factory in Sunderland, and march in sombre silence, then that WOULD have been bloody impressive, and much more emotionally effective.
If No Deal there will be 2 million marching by the end of January and there will likely be marches in Manchester and Newcastle even Sunderland too once Toyota, Nissan etc confirm they are preparing to shut plants in the UK as a result
The march will be well covered in the Sunday papers.
And forgotten about on Monday.
The people who were there won't forget and they will be coming after the Tories.
They will forget. I had lots of friends on it. I asked one how it was. He said it was "fun".
It was a fun day out. It will be forgotten. My friend is a Tory and there is no way he would vote for Corbyn, unless Corbyn was promising a new referendum and Labour was campaigning for Remain. Even then he'd waver.
He may not vote Labour, he may vote LD
Should the Lib Dems prepare for government?
Think I heard that somewhere before....
On many current polls the LDs will hold the balance of power between Labour +the SNP+PC+the Greens + the Tories + DUP
I have evolved over the last few weeks into moving neutral, apart from WTO which I reject
The demonstration was impressive but it looked a very middle class event, and of course held in remain London where both the mayor and the standard promoted it.
Farage counter march looked absolutely dead on its feet with only a handful of marchers.
I think hard brexit has now gone, even if it was ever likely, but the move there is a move towards a BINO deal or a second referendum, even though I do not quite understand how we get there.
But let those who want to remain or stop brexit understand this has the potential to rupture the country for decades; mind you leaving could have a similar effect
There are strong views on both sides with ever increasing inappropriate accusations and arrogance that one view is right and anything else is uneducated, and never mind the oldies as they will soon have died.
As an oldie I do find that offensive, not least because both my wife and I voted remain.
Maybe the temperature needs dialling down but it does seem unlikely
I have evolved over the last few weeks into moving neutral, apart from WTO which I reject
The demonstration was impressive but it looked a very middle class event, and of course held in remain London where both the mayor and the standard promoted it.
Farage counter march looked absolutely dead on its feet with only a handful of marchers.
I think hard brexit has now gone, even if it was ever likely, but the move there is a move towards a BINO deal or a second referendum, even though I do not quite understand how we get there.
But let those who want to remain or stop brexit understand this has the potential to rupture the country for decades; mind you leaving could have a similar effect
There are strong views on both sides with ever increasing inappropriate accusations and arrogance that one view is right and anything else is uneducated, and never mind the oldies as they will soon have died.
As an oldie I do find that offensive, not least because both my wife and I voted remain.
Maybe the temperature needs dialling down but it does seem unlikely
As I said May has privately already agreed a permanent CU+SM NI backstop with Varadkar and the EU which will enable the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period as Varadkar effectively confirmed yesterday, she just has not told the ERG and DUP yet which is the hard bit.
She will likely have to rely on Labour and LD votes to get it passed (Starmer said on QT Labour backed the NI backstop even if it opposed Chequers)
I think it is worth reflecting how much more potent today's march (it was today, wasn't it?) would have been had the government trying to put Brexit through was 10-15% behind in the polls instead of having a fairly comfortable lead.
A company we worked for near Cambridge employed a contractor for six months. He lived elsewhere in the country, and rather than travel he chose to spend his large salary and live in a tent on a campsite.
He spent six months living during the week in the tent, which was only a bit bigger than my main backpacking tent.
I can understand wanting to save money, but that seemed a trifle ridiculous.
Nothing will happen. Absolutely nothing. It won't be significant in any way. I mean, what do you feel right now? Nothing. Right?
As I sit here, and the Camden partygoers rock to the pub, and the students queue for the Jazz cafe, and the homeless Roma beg outside Whole Foods, it feels as if there had never been a #PeoplesVoteMarch at all.
It is poignant, how life moves on so swiftly. So brutally.
If we crash out with No Deal though there will soon be millions on the streets demanding EUref2, getting half a million on the streets of London for EUref2 today was a warning shot that we need a Deal
It will be all over by then though, they would need to start a re-join campaign which could take years and will the EU even still exist in say 20 years time?
Also there would need to be at least 17,410,742 of them.
No, if the negotiations end in November with No Deal that gives 4 months until Brexit day for EUref2 mass demonstrations and indeed an EU ref2 leading to a Remain vote before we are actually due to leave. Brexit can still be cancelled if it is seen by a majority of voters as on unacceptable terms.
To be honest with 40 Tory MPs led by Amber Rudd ready to vote with the opposition for EUref2 over No Deal they would probably get it.
Plus don't forget 16, 141, 241 voted Remain too
So who proposes the legislation?
Backbenchers, the opposition etc.
However given May has apparently told Varadkar already in private she backs a permanent backstop for NI I doubt it will be needed, May will get the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period.
I wonder if you ever take a newspaper report or opinion poll as anything other than gospel
The march will be well covered in the Sunday papers.
And forgotten about on Monday.
The people who were there won't forget and they will be coming after the Tories.
They will forget. I had lots of friends on it. I asked one how it was. He said it was "fun".
It was a fun day out. It will be forgotten. My friend is a Tory and there is no way he would vote for Corbyn, unless Corbyn was promising a new referendum and Labour was campaigning for Remain. Even then he'd waver.
He may not vote Labour, he may vote LD
Possibly. I've just checked his constituency and it has a Tory majority of 7,000 over Labour, so if a large chunk of pissed off Remainer Tories went LD it might just fall. But I doubt it.
Anyway I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing about the optics of marches.
Very few marches change British politics (we've been arguing this here and on Twitter all day). Unfortunately for the many Remainery marchers today, it all looked like a jolly weekend in rich sunny London, for lots of nice Guardian readers, and I doubt it will have swayed Leave voters one iota. It did move Guy Verhoefstadt, so there's that.
As I said before the march, they should have held it in a dour, Leave voting area in the north. If they could have persuaded hundreds of thousands of people from across Britain to go to the Nissan factory in Sunderland, and march in sombre silence, then that WOULD have been bloody impressive, and much more emotionally effective.
If No Deal there will be 2 million marching by the end of January and there will likely be marches in Manchester and Newcastle even Sunderland too once Toyota, Nissan etc confirm they are preparing to shut plants in the UK as a result
Yeah - right after the A50 recession , emergency budgets and 5 million unemployed..
Nothing will happen. Absolutely nothing. It won't be significant in any way. I mean, what do you feel right now? Nothing. Right?
As I sit here, and the Camden partygoers rock to the pub, and the students queue for the Jazz cafe, and the homeless Roma beg outside Whole Foods, it feels as if there had never been a #PeoplesVoteMarch at all.
It is poignant, how life moves on so swiftly. So brutally.
If we crash out with No Deal though there will soon be millions on the streets demanding EUref2, getting half a million on the streets of London for EUref2 today was a warning shot that we need a Deal
It will be all over by then though, they would need to start a re-join campaign which could take years and will the EU even still exist in say 20 years time?
Also there would need to be at least 17,410,742 of them.
No, if the negotiations end in November with No Deal that gives 4 months until Brexit day for EUref2 mass demonstrations and indeed an EU ref2 leading to a Remain vote before we are actually due to leave. Brexit can still be cancelled if it is seen by a majority of voters as on unacceptable terms.
To be honest with 40 Tory MPs led by Amber Rudd ready to vote with the opposition for EUref2 over No Deal they would probably get it.
Plus don't forget 16, 141, 241 voted Remain too
So who proposes the legislation?
Backbenchers, the opposition etc.
However given May has apparently told Varadkar already in private she backs a permanent backstop for NI I doubt it will be needed, May will get the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period.
I wonder if you ever take a newspaper report or opinion poll as anything other than gospel
Sometimes a degree of cynicism is wise
This was not a newspaper report or poll it was a direct quote from the Irish PM.
As is now blatantly obvious May has no intention whatsoever of going to No Deal, she is just focused on how she will get the backstop through Parliament
The lack of self-awareness of petulant Brexiteers when they're at their most objectionably self-pitying is kinda adorable.
I have to admit, though. I do *understand* why you're so angry. The remainers have been trying to tell you for years what was going to happen, and you ignored them.
And then the remainers were proved absolutely correct and the chaos unfolded exactly as everyone told you they would. Nobody likes being proved so hilariously, catastrophically, consistently and publicly wrong.
I feel your pain.
What "chaos" ? I've not seen any "chaos" except for Remain politicians and the establishment throwing an almighty strop and trying every trick in the book to thrwart the vote.
Other than that everything has been fine... Including the economic numbers which have all gone in the right direction over the past few months.
We haven't left yet and if anything there is a growing expectation that we will probably remain in the EU or at worst BINO.
And then the remainers were proved absolutely correct and the chaos unfolded exactly as everyone told you they would.
So again I ask, what "chaos" has there actually been?
A 15% drop in the value of the £, the UK has become a laughing stock on the international stage, its internal governmental and political processes are paralysed, it is unable to decide what it wants for its future relationship with the EU, its prime minister is openly derided by members of the cabinet and businesses are preparing to relocate operations abroad. Shortages of food and medicine loom - the government has said it must stockpile. The continued existence of the 300 year old union is widely questioned.
I think it is worth reflecting how much more potent today's march (it was today, wasn't it?) would have been had the government trying to put Brexit through was 10-15% behind in the polls instead of having a fairly comfortable lead.
Or if there had been a recession after a Leave vote.
The establishment safety valve for dealing with a Leave vote seems to have been economic difficulties followed by government unpopularity followed by cancellation of Brexit.
Its noticeable that whenever there has been any disappointing economic data or economic scare stories PB gets tweets pasted.
Don't remember any though in last week's economic data heavy week
The march will be well covered in the Sunday papers.
And forgotten about on Monday.
The people who were there won't forget and they will be coming after the Tories.
They will forget. I had lots of friends on it. I asked one how it was. He said it was "fun".
It was a fun day out. It will be forgotten. My friend is a Tory and there is no way he would vote for Corbyn, unless Corbyn was promising a new referendum and Labour was campaigning for Remain. Even then he'd waver.
He may not vote Labour, he may vote LD
Possibly. I've just checked his constituency and it has a Tory majority of 7,000 over Labour, so if a large chunk of pissed off Remainer Tories went LD it might just fall. But I doubt it.
Anyway I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing about the optics of marches.
Very few marches change British politics (we've been arguing this here and on Twitter all day). Unfortunately for the many Remainery marchers today, it all looked like a jolly weekend in rich sunny London, for lots of nice Guardian readers, and I doubt it will have swayed Leave voters one iota. It did move Guy Verhoefstadt, so there's that.
As I said before the march, they should have held it in a dour, Leave voting area in the north. If they could have persuaded hundreds of thousands of people from across Britain to go to the Nissan factory in Sunderland, and march in sombre silence, then that WOULD have been bloody impressive, and much more emotionally effective.
If No Deal there will be 2 million marching by the end of January and there will likely be marches in Manchester and Newcastle even Sunderland too once Toyota, Nissan etc confirm they are preparing to shut plants in the UK as a result
I agree that's a possibility. Remainers need actual evidence of huge companies shifting business/shuttering plants BEFORE March. That could, indeed, get millions on the streets (not just in regal, opulent London) and then there would be huge pressure for a 2nd ref.
If I was a devious Remainer plotter, I would be bribing Nissan to close their factory for a few weeks. The shock would be palpable. It would change moods overnight.
I have evolved over the last few weeks into moving neutral, apart from WTO which I reject
The demonstration was impressive but it looked a very middle class event, and of course held in remain London where both the mayor and the standard promoted it.
Farage counter march looked absolutely dead on its feet with only a handful of marchers.
I think hard brexit has now gone, even if it was ever likely, but the move there is a move towards a BINO deal or a second referendum, even though I do not quite understand how we get there.
But let those who want to remain or stop brexit understand this has the potential to rupture the country for decades; mind you leaving could have a similar effect
There are strong views on both sides with ever increasing inappropriate accusations and arrogance that one view is right and anything else is uneducated, and never mind the oldies as they will soon have died.
As an oldie I do find that offensive, not least because both my wife and I voted remain.
Maybe the temperature needs dialling down but it does seem unlikely
As I said May has privately already agreed a permanent CU+SM NI backstop with Varadkar and the EU which will enable the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period as Varadkar effectively confirmed yesterday, she just has not told the ERG and DUP yet which is the hard bit.
She will likely have to rely on Labour and LD votes to get it passed (Starmer said on QT Labour backed the NI backstop even if it opposed Chequers)
You really do not get it. You do not know what has been agreed and with respect you are beginning to look, to be kind, unwise and stuck in your ways
The lack of self-awareness of petulant Brexiteers when they're at their most objectionably self-pitying is kinda adorable.
I have to admit, though. I do *understand* why you're so angry. The remainers have been trying to tell you for years what was going to happen, and you ignored them.
And then the remainers were proved absolutely correct and the chaos unfolded exactly as everyone told you they would. Nobody likes being proved so hilariously, catastrophically, consistently and publicly wrong.
I feel your pain.
What "chaos" ? I've not seen any "chaos" except for Remain politicians and the establishment throwing an almighty strop and trying every trick in the book to thrwart the vote.
Other than that everything has been fine... Including the economic numbers which have all gone in the right direction over the past few months.
We haven't left yet and if anything there is a growing expectation that we will probably remain in the EU or at worst BINO.
And then the remainers were proved absolutely correct and the chaos unfolded exactly as everyone told you they would.
So again I ask, what "chaos" has there actually been?
A 15% drop in the value of the £, the UK has become a laughing stock on the international stage, its internal governmental and political processes are paralysed, it is unable to decide what it wants for its future relationship with the EU, its prime minister is openly derided by members of the cabinet and businesses are preparing to relocate operations abroad. Shortages of food and medicine loom - the government has said it must stockpile. The continued existence of the 300 year old union is widely questioned.
A company we worked for near Cambridge employed a contractor for six months. He lived elsewhere in the country, and rather than travel he chose to spend his large salary and live in a tent on a campsite.
He spent six months living during the week in the tent, which was only a bit bigger than my main backpacking tent.
I can understand wanting to save money, but that seemed a trifle ridiculous.
The tent option is a bit silly. In practice the cheapest option is always "rent somebody's back bedroom" (see https://www.spareroom.co.uk/ ). There are complexities (it's insecure and sometimes your flatmates are not nice) but the other options have greater cost.
The march will be well covered in the Sunday papers.
And forgotten about on Monday.
The people who were there won't forget and they will be coming after the Tories.
They will forget. I had lots of friends on it. I asked one how it was. He said it was "fun".
It was a fun day out. It will be forgotten. My friend is a Tory and there is no way he would vote for Corbyn, unless Corbyn was promising a new referendum and Labour was campaigning for Remain. Even then he'd waver.
He may not vote Labour, he may vote LD
Possibly. I've just checked his constituency and it has a Tory majority of 7,000 over Labour, so if a large chunk of pissed off Remainer Tories went LD it might just fall. But I doubt it.
Anyway I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing about the optics of marches.
Very few marches change British politics (we've been arguing this here and on Twitter all day). Unfortunately for the many Remainery marchers today, it all looked like a jolly weekend in rich sunny London, for lots of nice Guardian readers, and I doubt it will have swayed Leave voters one iota. It did move Guy Verhoefstadt, so there's that.
As I said before the march, they should have held it in a dour, Leave voting area in the north. If they could have persuaded hundreds of thousands of people from across Britain to go to the Nissan factory in Sunderland, and march in sombre silence, then that WOULD have been bloody impressive, and much more emotionally effective.
If No Deal there will be 2 million marching by the end of January and there will likely be marches in Manchester and Newcastle even Sunderland too once Toyota, Nissan etc confirm they are preparing to shut plants in the UK as a result
Yeah - right after the A50 recession , emergency budgets and 5 million unemployed..
We are still in the EU for goodness sake.
Once the No Deal implications become clear, and they will, the polls will shift pretty quickly, of course Remain is preferred to No Deal in the polls even now
I have evolved over the last few weeks into moving neutral, apart from WTO which I reject
The demonstration was impressive but it looked a very middle class event, and of course held in remain London where both the mayor and the standard promoted it.
Farage counter march looked absolutely dead on its feet with only a handful of marchers.
I think hard brexit has now gone, even if it was ever likely, but the move there is a move towards a BINO deal or a second referendum, even though I do not quite understand how we get there.
But let those who want to remain or stop brexit understand this has the potential to rupture the country for decades; mind you leaving could have a similar effect
There are strong views on both sides with ever increasing inappropriate accusations and arrogance that one view is right and anything else is uneducated, and never mind the oldies as they will soon have died.
As an oldie I do find that offensive, not least because both my wife and I voted remain.
Maybe the temperature needs dialling down but it does seem unlikely
As I said May has privately already agreed a permanent CU+SM NI backstop with Varadkar and the EU which will enable the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period as Varadkar effectively confirmed yesterday, she just has not told the ERG and DUP yet which is the hard bit.
She will likely have to rely on Labour and LD votes to get it passed (Starmer said on QT Labour backed the NI backstop even if it opposed Chequers)
You really do not get it. You do not know what has been agreed and with respect you are beginning to look, to be kind, unwise and stuck in your ways
HYUFD was convinced that ending WFA in England but keeping it in Scotland was going to be a big vote winner ... in England.
Nothing will happen. Absolutely nothing. It won't be significant in any way. I mean, what do you feel right now? Nothing. Right?
As I sit here, and the Camden partygoers rock to the pub, and the students queue for the Jazz cafe, and the homeless Roma beg outside Whole Foods, it feels as if there had never been a #PeoplesVoteMarch at all.
It is poignant, how life moves on so swiftly. So brutally.
If we crash out with No Deal though there will soon be millions on the streets demanding EUref2, getting half a million on the streets of London for EUref2 today was a warning shot that we need a Deal
It will be all over by then though, they would need to start a re-join campaign which could take years and will the EU even still exist in say 20 years time?
Also there would need to be at least 17,410,742 of them.
No, if the negotiations end in November with No Deal that gives 4 months until Brexit day for EUref2 mass demonstrations and indeed an EU ref2 leading to a Remain vote before we are actually due to leave. Brexit can still be cancelled if it is seen by a majority of voters as on unacceptable terms.
To be honest with 40 Tory MPs led by Amber Rudd ready to vote with the opposition for EUref2 over No Deal they would probably get it.
Plus don't forget 16, 141, 241 voted Remain too
So who proposes the legislation?
Backbenchers, the opposition etc.
However given May has apparently told Varadkar already in private she backs a permanent backstop for NI I doubt it will be needed, May will get the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period.
I wonder if you ever take a newspaper report or opinion poll as anything other than gospel
Sometimes a degree of cynicism is wise
This was not a newspaper report or poll it was a direct quote from the Irish PM.
As is now blatantly obvious May has no intention whatsoever of going to No Deal, she is just focused on how she will get the backstop through Parliament
I have evolved over the last few weeks into moving neutral, apart from WTO which I reject
The demonstration was impressive but it looked a very middle class event, and of course held in remain London where both the mayor and the standard promoted it.
Farage counter march looked absolutely dead on its feet with only a handful of marchers.
I think hard brexit has now gone, even if it was ever likely, but the move there is a move towards a BINO deal or a second referendum, even though I do not quite understand how we get there.
But let those who want to remain or stop brexit understand this has the potential to rupture the country for decades; mind you leaving could have a similar effect
There are strong views on both sides with ever increasing inappropriate accusations and arrogance that one view is right and anything else is uneducated, and never mind the oldies as they will soon have died.
As an oldie I do find that offensive, not least because both my wife and I voted remain.
Maybe the temperature needs dialling down but it does seem unlikely
As I said May has privately already agreed a permanent CU+SM NI backstop with Varadkar and the EU which will enable the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period as Varadkar effectively confirmed yesterday, she just has not told the ERG and DUP yet which is the hard bit.
She will likely have to rely on Labour and LD votes to get it passed (Starmer said on QT Labour backed the NI backstop even if it opposed Chequers)
You really do not get it. You do not know what has been agreed and with respect you are beginning to look, to be kind, unwise and stuck in your ways
Yes, well thankyou for the generic statement of disapproval with no facts but I will go on actual reports.
Varadkar said yesterday May agreed with him there had to be a NI backstop and it had to be permanent and without a time limit. The backstop of course is the only way to avoid No Deal and May knows that
The lack of self-awareness of petulant Brexiteers when they're at their most objectionably self-pitying is kinda adorable.
I have to admit, though. I do *understand* why you're so angry. The remainers have been trying to tell you for years what was going to happen, and you ignored them.
And then the remainers were proved absolutely correct and the chaos unfolded exactly as everyone told you they would. Nobody likes being proved so hilariously, catastrophically, consistently and publicly wrong.
I feel your pain.
What "chaos" ? I've not seen any "chaos" except for Remain politicians and the establishment throwing an almighty strop and trying every trick in the book to thrwart the vote.
Other than that everything has been fine... Including the economic numbers which have all gone in the right direction over the past few months.
We haven't left yet and if anything there is a growing expectation that we will probably remain in the EU or at worst BINO.
And then the remainers were proved absolutely correct and the chaos unfolded exactly as everyone told you they would.
So again I ask, what "chaos" has there actually been?
A 15% drop in the value of the £, the UK has become a laughing stock on the international stage, its internal governmental and political processes are paralysed, it is unable to decide what it wants for its future relationship with the EU, its prime minister is openly derided by members of the cabinet and businesses are preparing to relocate operations abroad. Shortages of food and medicine loom - the government has said it must stockpile. The continued existence of the 300 year old union is widely questioned.
Seems pretty chaotic to me.
And all the more reason to question why they are generally doing OK in the polls
I think it is worth reflecting how much more potent today's march (it was today, wasn't it?) would have been had the government trying to put Brexit through was 10-15% behind in the polls instead of having a fairly comfortable lead.
Yes. The bizarre existence of Corbyn as Labour leader, a far left Brexiteer surrounded by Trots, a marginal clown somehow elevated to major status, is warping all our politics.
Imagine if Labour were led by Balls or Cooper or even Thornberry. A pragmatic Remainer. The entire debate would be upended and we'd probably be reversing out of Brexit PDQ.
Agreed. The government could not have got Brexit through the Commons if it was not for the ambivalence of Corbyn effectively splitting the opposition instead of leading it.
Nothing will happen. Absolutely nothing. It won't be significant in any way. I mean, what do you feel right now? Nothing. Right?
As I sit here, and the Camden partygoers rock to the pub, and the students queue for the Jazz cafe, and the homeless Roma beg outside Whole Foods, it feels as if there had never been a #PeoplesVoteMarch at all.
It is poignant, how life moves on so swiftly. So brutally.
If we crash out with No Deal though there will soon be millions on the streets demanding EUref2, getting half a million on the streets of London for EUref2 today was a warning shot that we need a Deal
It will be all over by then though, they would need to start a re-join campaign which could take years and will the EU even still exist in say 20 years time?
Also there would need to be at least 17,410,742 of them.
No, if the negotiations end in November with No Deal that gives 4 months until Brexit day for EUref2 mass demonstrations and indeed an EU ref2 leading to a Remain vote before we are actually due to leave. Brexit can still be cancelled if it is seen by a majority of voters as on unacceptable terms.
To be honest with 40 Tory MPs led by Amber Rudd ready to vote with the opposition for EUref2 over No Deal they would probably get it.
Plus don't forget 16, 141, 241 voted Remain too
So who proposes the legislation?
Backbenchers, the opposition etc.
However given May has apparently told Varadkar already in private she backs a permanent backstop for NI I doubt it will be needed, May will get the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period.
I wonder if you ever take a newspaper report or opinion poll as anything other than gospel
Sometimes a degree of cynicism is wise
This was not a newspaper report or poll it was a direct quote from the Irish PM.
As is now blatantly obvious May has no intention whatsoever of going to No Deal, she is just focused on how she will get the backstop through Parliament
And you fall for it
For goodness sake BigG look at the facts, if there is no permanent backstop we crash out with No Deal, basta, finito.
May knows that and May will do the necessary cave (even if it is hedged by some condition or test to be met before it ceases to apply)
I have evolved over the last few weeks into moving neutral, apart from WTO which I reject
The demonstration was impressive but it looked a very middle class event, and of course held in remain London where both the mayor and the standard promoted it.
Farage counter march looked absolutely dead on its feet with only a handful of marchers.
I think hard brexit has now gone, even if it was ever likely, but the move there is a move towards a BINO deal or a second referendum, even though I do not quite understand how we get there.
But let those who want to remain or stop brexit understand this has the potential to rupture the country for decades; mind you leaving could have a similar effect
There are strong views on both sides with ever increasing inappropriate accusations and arrogance that one view is right and anything else is uneducated, and never mind the oldies as they will soon have died.
As an oldie I do find that offensive, not least because both my wife and I voted remain.
Maybe the temperature needs dialling down but it does seem unlikely
As I said May has privately already agreed a permanent CU+SM NI backstop with Varadkar and the EU which will enable the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period as Varadkar effectively confirmed yesterday, she just has not told the ERG and DUP yet which is the hard bit.
She will likely have to rely on Labour and LD votes to get it passed (Starmer said on QT Labour backed the NI backstop even if it opposed Chequers)
You really do not get it. You do not know what has been agreed and with respect you are beginning to look, to be kind, unwise and stuck in your ways
HYUFD was convinced that ending WFA in England but keeping it in Scotland was going to be a big vote winner ... in England.
There is a middle ground trying to find a Brexit that the country can support and will not crash the economy and lead to Scotland and NI leaving the UK or quite possibly a cancellation of Brexit anyway.
The march will be well covered in the Sunday papers.
And forgotten about on Monday.
The people who were there won't forget and they will be coming after the Tories.
They will forget. I had lots of friends on it. I asked one how it was. He said it was "fun".
It was a fun day out. It will be forgotten. My friend is a Tory and there is no way he would vote for Corbyn, unless Corbyn was promising a new referendum and Labour was campaigning for Remain. Even then he'd waver.
He may not vote Labour, he may vote LD
Possibly. I'vemarch in sombre silence, then that WOULD have been bloody impressive, and much more emotionally effective.
If No Deal there will be 2 million marching by the end of January and there will likely be marches in Manchester and Newcastle even Sunderland too once Toyota, Nissan etc confirm they are preparing to shut plants in the UK as a result
I agree that's a possibility. Remainers need actual evidence of huge companies shifting business/shuttering plants BEFORE March. That could, indeed, get millions on the streets (not just in regal, opulent London) and then there would be huge pressure for a 2nd ref.
If I was a devious Remainer plotter, I would be bribing Nissan to close their factory for a few weeks. The shock would be palpable. It would change moods overnight.
If No Deal on the cards I also expect Sturgeon early next year to say she will be calling indyref2 in the next few months
I doubt it. Far too risky. The SNP need a consistent lead of 5-10 points for YES for about a year before they can dare to ask the people again. A 2nd lost vote would end indy for 30 years, and destroy her party and her career, at the same time.
And she would be asking the people to vote in a period of total chaos, i.e. to add extra chaos to the chaos? Is that really attractive?
Sturgeon is not that brave - nor is she that foolish. She will wait and hope for a slender majority in the next Holyrood elex, after a botched Brexit is proved. Then she will have a GOOD chance.
Survation Yes 52% No 48% if No Deal Brexit.
Hardline Brexiteers are dicing with death with the Union if they push No Deal
The lack of self-awareness of petulant Brexiteers when they're at their most objectionably self-pitying is kinda adorable.
I have to admit, though. I do *understand* why you're so angry. The remainers have been trying to tell you for years what was going to happen, and you ignored them.
And then the remainers were proved absolutely correct and the chaos unfolded exactly as everyone told you they would. Nobody likes being proved so hilariously, catastrophically, consistently and publicly wrong.
I feel your pain.
What "chaos" ? I've not seen any "chaos" except for Remain politicians and the establishment throwing an almighty strop and trying every trick in the book to thrwart the vote.
Other than that everything has been fine... Including the economic numbers which have all gone in the right direction over the past few months.
We haven't left yet and if anything there is a growing expectation that we will probably remain in the EU or at worst BINO.
And then the remainers were proved absolutely correct and the chaos unfolded exactly as everyone told you they would.
So again I ask, what "chaos" has there actually been?
A 15% drop in the value of the £, the UK has become a laughing stock on the international stage, its internal governmental and political processes are paralysed, it is unable to decide what it wants for its future relationship with the EU, its prime minister is openly derided by members of the cabinet and businesses are preparing to relocate operations abroad. Shortages of food and medicine loom - the government has said it must stockpile. The continued existence of the 300 year old union is widely questioned.
Seems pretty chaotic to me.
And yet unemployment is at a record low, the economy is still growing (not brilliantly, but about the same as France or Italy), we had a lovely summer, the deficit is slowly being fixed, the autumn is proving sunny, England did OK in the World Cup, we're all still going on holiday, Christmas is coming.
It just doesn't *feel* Armagedonny, outside the bubble of Twitter and PB.
We are still in the EU, SM and CU and still negotiating for a deal, if crash out No Deal Brexit and we leave the EU, SM and CU with no FTA all that will change pretty rapidly
I have evolved over the last few weeks into moving neutral, apart from WTO which I reject
The demonstration was impressive but it looked a very middle class event, and of course held in remain London where both the mayor and the standard promoted it.
Farage counter march looked absolutely dead on its feet with only a handful of marchers.
I think hard brexit has now gone, even if it was ever likely, but the move there is a move towards a BINO deal or a second referendum, even though I do not quite understand how we get there.
But let those who want to remain or stop brexit understand this has the potential to rupture the country for decades; mind you leaving could have a similar effect
There are strong views on both sides with ever increasing inappropriate accusations and arrogance that one view is right and anything else is uneducated, and never mind the oldies as they will soon have died.
As an oldie I do find that offensive, not least because both my wife and I voted remain.
Maybe the temperature needs dialling down but it does seem unlikely
As I said May has privately already agreed a permanent CU+SM NI backstop with Varadkar and the EU which will enable the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period as Varadkar effectively confirmed yesterday, she just has not told the ERG and DUP yet which is the hard bit.
She will likely have to rely on Labour and LD votes to get it passed (Starmer said on QT Labour backed the NI backstop even if it opposed Chequers)
You really do not get it. You do not know what has been agreed and with respect you are beginning to look, to be kind, unwise and stuck in your ways
Yes, well thankyou for the generic statement of disapproval with no facts but I will go on actual reports.
Varadkar said yesterday May agreed with him there had to be a NI backstop and it had to be permanent and without a time limit. The backstop of course is the only way to avoid No Deal and May knows that
The march will be well covered in the Sunday papers.
And forgotten about on Monday.
The people who were there won't forget and they will be coming after the Tories.
They will forget. I had lots of friends on it. I asked one how it was. He said it was "fun".
It was a fun day out. It will be forgotten. My friend is a Tory and there is no way he would vote for Corbyn, unless Corbyn was promising a new referendum and Labour was campaigning for Remain. Even then he'd waver.
He may not vote Labour, he may vote LD
Possibly. I've just checked his constituency and it has a Tory majority of 7,000 over Labour, so if a large chunk of pissed off Remainer Tories went LD it might just fall. But I doubt it.
Anyway Illy effective.
If No Deal there will be 2 million marching by the end of January and there will likely be marches in Manchester and Newcastle even Sunderland too once Toyota, Nissan etc confirm they are preparing to shut plants in the UK as a result
I agree that's a possibility. Remainers need actual evidence of huge companies shifting business/shuttering plants BEFORE March. That could, indeed, get millions on the streets (not just in regal, opulent London) and then there would be huge pressure for a 2nd ref.
If I was a devious Remainer plotter, I would be bribing Nissan to close their factory for a few weeks. The shock would be palpable. It would change moods overnight.
If No Deal on the cards I also expect Sturgeon early next year to say she will be calling indyref2 in the next few months
Warnings aren't enough. We know that now. Project Fear was ALL warnings (one reason they lost). To make it worse, those warnings largely proved illusory.
Remainers need to show actual and dramatic loss of factories, jobs, output, prosperity, BEFORE March. The trouble for them is, I don't see how it will happen until after Brexit is done (if it happens at all).
I have evolved over the last few weeks into moving neutral, apart from WTO which I reject
The demonstration was impressive but it looked a very middle class event, and of course held in remain London where both the mayor and the standard promoted it.
Farage counter march looked absolutely dead on its feet with only a handful of marchers.
I think hard brexit has now gone, even if it was ever likely, but the move there is a move towards a BINO deal or a second referendum, even though I do not quite understand how we get there.
But let those who want to remain or stop brexit understand this has the potential to rupture the country for decades; mind you leaving could have a similar effect
There are strong views on both sides with ever increasing inappropriate accusations and arrogance that one view is right and anything else is uneducated, and never mind the oldies as they will soon have died.
As an oldie I do find that offensive, not least because both my wife and I voted remain.
Maybe the temperature needs dialling down but it does seem unlikely
As I said May has privately already agreed a permanent CU+SM NI backstop with Varadkar and the EU which will enable the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period as Varadkar effectively confirmed yesterday, she just has not told the ERG and DUP yet which is the hard bit.
She will likely have to rely on Labour and LD votes to get it passed (Starmer said on QT Labour backed the NI backstop even if it opposed Chequers)
You really do not get it. You do not know what has been agreed and with respect you are beginning to look, to be kind, unwise and stuck in your ways
Yes, well thankyou for the generic statement of disapproval with no facts but I will go on actual reports.
Varadkar said yesterday May agreed with him there had to be a NI backstop and it had to be permanent and without a time limit. The backstop of course is the only way to avoid No Deal and May knows that
I just love how butthurt right wingers get at mass protests. Stamping their feet and sulking in an endlessly unattractive petulant self-pity.
As opposed to the two plus years of stamping their feet and sulking in an endlessly unattractive petulant self-pity-fest of Remainderdom?
See, look! You're doing it right now!
The lack of self-awareness of petulant Brexiteers correct and the chaos unfolded exactly as everyone told you they would. Nobody likes being proved so hilariously, catastrophically, consistently and publicly wrong.
I feel your pain.
You've proven nothing. It's only your supreme arrogance that leads you to conclude that.
The EU and the ultra-Remainers have learnt nothing and forgotten nothing. So there will be no progress and no peace.
Very sad
Amusingly IF, (a big if), there was a second vote and remain won, they would be screaming that this settles the matter for at least a (non Scottish) generation.
Yeah they actually think that if Remain should win a second referendum that Leavers will shut up and go since 2016...
may be their last chance, if they push too hard and demand No Deal they may blow it and we will not actually leave the EU at all
I think this demographic argument is spurious to say the least. It seems to me theexperience of
Also the more you LEARN about the EU - its political structure, the bizarre lack of democracy - the less you like it. That learning takes quite a lot of time.
As a young person all you see is the good bits. Freedom to work in a bar in Ibiza, etc
And when you try to tap into the magic money tree it tends to be loaded with caveats and strings. For example the role out of super fast broadband. The EU, along with many other public bodies put quite a bit of money into the project in my area. However they were the only public body that built in a three year delay, put hurdles in so high that community groups and companies without the power of BT just couldn’t bid for contracts. It was BT or nothing. And that was down to the European Commission.
Another example is the flooding in 2015 across the country. It was quite acute in my county. We had debates at council meetings, and lots of local newspaper articles about why hadn’t the government applied for funds from the EU solidarity fund. Eventually the government was pressured into applying. It got a notional £51 million which was clawed back except for about £500,000 from the rebate.
The march will be well covered in the Sunday papers.
And forgotten about on Monday.
The people who were there won't forget and they will be coming after the Tories.
They will forget. I had lots of friends on it. I asked one how it was. He said it was "fun".
It was a fun day out. It will be forgotten. My friend is a Tory and there is no way he would vote for Corbyn, unless Corbyn was promising a new referendum and Labour was campaigning for Remain. Even then he'd waver.
He may not vote Labour, he may vote LD
Possibly. I'vemarch in sombre silence, then that WOULD have been bloody impressive, and much more emotionally effective.
If No Deal there will be 2 million marching by the end of January and there will likely be marches in Manchester and Newcastle even Sunderland too once Toyota, Nissan etc confirm they are preparing to shut plants in the UK as a result
I agree that's a possibility. Remainers need actual evidence of huge companies shifting business/shuttering plants BEFORE March. That could, indeed, get millions on the streets (not just in regal, opulent London) and then there would be huge pressure for a 2nd ref.
If I was a devious Remainer plotter, I would be bribing Nissan to close their factory for a few weeks. The shock would be palpable. It would change moods overnight.
If No Deal on the cards I also expect Sturgeon early next year to say she will be calling indyref2 in the next few months
I doubt it. Far too risky. The SNP need a consistent lead of 5-10 points for YES for about a year before they can dare to ask the people again. A 2nd lost vote would end indy for 30 years, and destroy her party and her career, at the same time.
And she would be asking the people to vote in a period of total chaos, i.e. to add extra chaos to the chaos? Is that really attractive?
Sturgeon is not that brave - nor is she that foolish. She will wait and hope for a slender majority in the next Holyrood elex, after a botched Brexit is proved. Then she will have a GOOD chance.
Hyuyd comments on all things Scottish as if he is an expert on Scotland
No way will Sturgeon request an Indy 2 immediately, she is far too astute a political operator
The lack of self-awareness of petulant Brexiteers when they're at their most objectionably self-pitying is kinda adorable.
I have to admit, though. I do *understand* why you're so angry. The remainers have been trying to tell you for years what was going to happen, and you ignored them.
And then the remainers were proved absolutely correct and the chaos unfolded exactly as everyone told you they would. Nobody likes being proved so hilariously, catastrophically, consistently and publicly wrong.
I feel your pain.
What "chaos" ? I've not seen any "chaos" except for Remain politicians and the establishment throwing an almighty strop and trying every trick in the book to thrwart the vote.
Other than that everything has been fine... Including the economic numbers which have all gone in the right direction over the past few months.
We haven't left yet and if anything there is a growing expectation that we will probably remain in the EU or at worst BINO.
And then the remainers were proved absolutely correct and the chaos unfolded exactly as everyone told you they would.
So again I ask, what "chaos" has there actually been?
A 15% drop in the value of the £, the UK has become a laughing stock on the international stage, its internal governmental and political processes are paralysed, it is unable to decide what it wants for its future relationship with the EU, its prime minister is openly derided by members of the cabinet and businesses are preparing to relocate operations abroad. Shortages of food and medicine loom - the government has said it must stockpile. The continued existence of the 300 year old union is widely questioned.
Seems pretty chaotic to me.
And yet unemployment is at a record low, the economy is still growing (not brilliantly, but about the same as France or Italy), we had a lovely summer, the deficit is slowly being fixed, the autumn is proving sunny, England did OK in the World Cup, we're all still going on holiday, Christmas is coming.
It just doesn't *feel* Armagedonny, outside the bubble of Twitter and PB.
No. It's rather like August 1914. We are drifting toward disaster but the trajectory does not seem threatening to most people. And by the time they realise what is happening it may well be too late.
I have evolved over the last few weeks into moving neutral, apart from WTO which I reject
The demonstration was impressive but it looked a very middle class event, and of course held in remain London where both the mayor and the standard promoted it.
Farage counter march looked absolutely dead on its feet with only a handful of marchers.
I think hard brexit has now gone, even if it was ever likely, but the move there is a move towards a BINO deal or a second referendum, even though I do not quite understand how we get there.
But let those who want to remain or stop brexit understand this has the potential to rupture the country for decades; mind you leaving could have a similar effect
There are strong views on both sides with ever increasing inappropriate accusations and arrogance that one view is right and anything else is uneducated, and never mind the oldies as they will soon have died.
As an oldie I do find that offensive, not least because both my wife and I voted remain.
Maybe the temperature needs dialling down but it does seem unlikely
As I said May has privately already agreed a permanent CU+SM NI backstop with Varadkar and the EU which will enable the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period as Varadkar effectively confirmed yesterday, she just has not told the ERG and DUP yet which is the hard bit.
She will likely have to rely on Labour and LD votes to get it passed (Starmer said on QT Labour backed the NI backstop even if it opposed Chequers)
You really do not get it. You do not know what has been agreed and with respect you are beginning to look, to be kind, unwise and stuck in your ways
Varadkar said yesterday May agreed with him there had to be a NI backstop and it had to be permanent and without a time limit. The backstop of course is the only way to avoid No Deal and May knows that
May told MPs in the House of Commons on Monday: “It must be the case, first, that the backstop should not need to come into force; secondly, that if it does, it must be temporary; and, thirdly, while I do not believe that this will be the case, that if the EU were not to cooperate on our future relationship, we must be able to ensure that we cannot be kept in this backstop arrangement indefinitely.”
I have evolved over the last few weeks into moving neutral, apart from WTO which I reject
The demonstration was impressive but it looked a very middle class event, and of course held in remain London where both the mayor and the standard promoted it.
Farage counter march looked absolutely dead on its feet with only a handful of marchers.
I think hard brexit has now gone, even if it was ever likely, but the move there is a move towards a BINO deal or a second referendum, even though I do not quite understand how we get there.
But let those who want to remain or stop brexit understand this has the potential to rupture the country for decades; mind you leaving could have a similar effect
There are strong views on both sides with ever increasing inappropriate accusations and arrogance that one view is right and anything else is uneducated, and never mind the oldies as they will soon have died.
As an oldie I do find that offensive, not least because both my wife and I voted remain.
Maybe the temperature needs dialling down but it does seem unlikely
As I said May has privately already agreed a permanent CU+SM NI backstop with Varadkar and the EU which will enable the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period as Varadkar effectively confirmed yesterday, she just has not told the ERG and DUP yet which is the hard bit.
She will likely have to rely on Labour and LD votes to get it passed (Starmer said on QT Labour backed the NI backstop even if it opposed Chequers)
You really do not get it. You do not know what has been agreed and with respect you are beginning to look, to be kind, unwise and stuck in your ways
HYUFD was convinced that ending WFA in England but keeping it in Scotland was going to be a big vote winner ... in England.
HYUFD has expressed with certainty that many things were going to happen, which didn't, and with equal certainty, that many historic xs were the result of ys, without any more than his own confirmation bias to back it up.
Over, and over, and over again. He definitely has the huge post count to show for it!
His current blind spot seems to be that the most Unionist of Unionists see the peril in accepting the backstop. But no, HYUFD, the oracle of all things past and future, can cite a single poll based on a future hypothetical to confound all real evidence and common sense...
The lack of self-awareness of petulant Brexiteers when they're at their most objectionably self-pitying is kinda adorable.
I have to admit, though. I do *understand* why you're so angry. The remainers have been trying to tell you for years what was going to happen, and you ignored them.
And then the remainers were proved absolutely correct and the chaos unfolded exactly as everyone told you they would. Nobody likes being proved so hilariously, catastrophically, consistently and publicly wrong.
I feel your pain.
What "chaos" ? I've not seen any "chaos" except for Remain politicians and the establishment throwing an almighty strop and trying every trick in the book to thrwart the vote.
Other than that everything has been fine... Including the economic numbers which have all gone in the right direction over the past few months.
We haven't left yet and if anything there is a growing expectation that we will probably remain in the EU or at worst BINO.
And then the remainers were proved absolutely correct and the chaos unfolded exactly as everyone told you they would.
So again I ask, what "chaos" has there actually been?
A 15% drop in the value of the £, the UKof the cabinet andment has said it must stockpile. The continued existence of the 300 year old union is widely questioned.
Seems pretty chaotic to me.
And yet unemployment is at a record low, the economy is still growing (not brilliantly, but about the same as France or Italy), we had a lovely summer, the deficit is slowly being fixed, the autumn is proving sunny, England did OK in the of Twitter and PB.
No. It's rather like August 1914. We are drifting toward disaster but the trajectory does not seem threatening to most people. And by the time they realise what is happening it may well be too late.
That analogy only holds water in a true no deal no deal. The biggest problem we have is regulatory. Our lack of domestic regulatory competence for things that have been done at an EU level. Both the EU and the UK would have to deliberately want a no deal no deal for one to happen. All kinds of last minute roll over agreements can happen to keep trains and planes running, to keep France selling us cheese and for trade to pass through from Northern Ireland. For our lorries to drive on European roads.
If that happens nothing will change on the 30th March. There’ll be no UN food drops or Marshall law.
Nothing will happen. Absolutely nothing. It won't be significant in any way. I mean, what do you feel right now? Nothing. Right?
As I sit here, and the Camden partygoers rock to the pub, and the students queue for the Jazz cafe, and the homeless Roma beg outside Whole Foods, it feels as if there had never been a #PeoplesVoteMarch at all.
It is poignant, how life moves on so swiftly. So brutally.
If we crash out with No Deal though there will soon be millions on the streets demanding EUref2, getting half a million on the streets of London for EUref2 today was a warning shot that we need a Deal
It will be all over by then though, they would need to start a re-join campaign which could take years and will the EU even still exist in say 20 years time?
Also there would need to be at least 17,410,742 of them.
No, if the negotiations end in November with No Deal that gives 4 months until Brexit day for EUref2 mass demonstrations and indeed an EU ref2 leading to a Remain vote before we are actually due to leave. Brexit can still be cancelled if it is seen by a majority of voters as on unacceptable terms.
To be honest with 40 Tory MPs led by Amber Rudd ready to vote with the opposition for EUref2 over No Deal they would probably get it.
Plus don't forget 16, 141, 241 voted Remain too
So who proposes the legislation?
Backbenchers, the opposition etc.
However given May has apparently told Varadkar already in private she backs a permanent backstop for NI I doubt it will be needed, May will get the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period.
They can’t propose legislation (setting aside private members bills which are easy to kill)
The legislation will probably have Dominic Raab's name on it.
People tend to overthink Brexit because it's so complex, but in terms of the outcome from Article 50 it's very simple. There are only three possibilities: no deal, a ratified Withdrawal Agreement or Remain. Parliament doesn't have a mandate to decide to Remain, so it has to go back to the people otherwise they just face a Hobson's choice and parliamentary sovereignty is meaningless.
Parliamentary Sovereignty is being actively employed right now
That’s why it is Theresa May (as the Crown in Parliament) negotiating Brexit not the Queen.
"My father was a diplomat. He earned a modest Civil Service salary. But my mother had inherited a few thousand pounds from her late father. So in 1964 they used that money to buy a five-bedroom detached house opposite Kew Gardens in south-west London. It cost £8,000."
' It has been at least 20 years since I realised that, even though I was earning more than my father had ever made in his life, I could never hope to afford to live in a house like the one I grew up in, nor give my children the kind of education he provided for me and my sisters. '
What we've been seeing at various speeds and to varying extents around the country is middle class regression.
The author is a writer who was educated at Eton and had a detached house in Richmond Park.
He lives in what he describes as a 'rambling old cottage with a lovely garden' near Chichester and his children went to a local primary and a West Sussex comprehensive, Bishop Luffa, rated Outstanding. Please forgive me if I do not shed too many tears over this tale of woe and downward mobility, it is hardly Dickensian!
But it is a fact that home ownership levels have fallen significantly among the young during the last two decades.
Though not as quickly as student debts have risen.
We London middle classes aged 45 and under have just had to reduce our expectations.
My mate, a QC, lives in a slightly cramped house in Hackney. It’s considered fancy by local standards but nevertheless, it’s Hackney. I live down the road. We hang in a group of corporate lawyers who have all had to make do somehow.
A generation ago, we’d all be in 5-beds in Hampstead.
I was born in a beautiful detached house in Kensington. I can barely afford a semi in zone 2 these days...
I've never been able to afford anything much above a hovel in London. Which may explain why I live in the leafy suburbs in the Southwest .
And probably have a better quality of life than most Londoners 😉
The lack of self-awareness of petulant Brexiteers when they're at their most objectionably self-pitying is kinda adorable.
I have to admit, though. I do *understand* why you're so angry. The remainers have been trying to tell you for years what was going to happen, and you ignored them.
And then the remainers were proved absolutely correct and the chaos unfolded exactly as everyone told you they would. Nobody likes being proved so hilariously, catastrophically, consistently and publicly wrong.
I feel your pain.
What "chaos" ? I've not seen any "chaos" except for Remain politicians and the establishment throwing an almighty strop and trying every trick in the book to thrwart the vote.
Other than that everything has been fine... Including the economic numbers which have all gone in the right direction over the past few months.
We haven't left yet and if anything there is a growing expectation that we will probably remain in the EU or at worst BINO.
And then the remainers were proved absolutely correct and the chaos unfolded exactly as everyone told you they would.
So again I ask, what "chaos" has there actually been?
A 15% drop in the value of the £, the UK has become a laughing stock on the international stage, its internal governmental and political processes are paralysed, it is unable to decide what it wants for its future relationship with the EU, its prime minister is openly derided by members of the cabinet and businesses are preparing to relocate operations abroad. Shortages of food and medicine loom - the government has said it must stockpile. The continued existence of the 300 year old union is widely questioned.
Seems pretty chaotic to me.
And yet unemployment is at a record low, the economy is still growing (not brilliantly, but about the same as France or Italy), we had a lovely summer, the deficit is slowly being fixed, the autumn is proving sunny, England did OK in the World Cup, we're all still going on holiday, Christmas is coming.
It just doesn't *feel* Armagedonny, outside the bubble of Twitter and PB.
No. It's rather like August 1914. We are drifting toward disaster but the trajectory does not seem threatening to most people. And by the time they realise what is happening it may well be too late.
More like Waco or Jonestown.
Harbingers of the end of days stalking the earth with their voices of woe and calamity.
I have evolved over the last few weeks into moving neutral, apart from WTO which I reject
The demonstration was impressive but it looked a very middle class event, and of course held in remain London where both the mayor and the standard promoted it.
Farage counter march looked absolutely dead on its feet with only a handful of marchers.
I think hard brexit has now gone, even if it was ever likely, but the move there is a move towards a BINO deal or a second referendum, even though I do not quite understand how we get there.
But let those who want to remain or stop brexit understand this has the potential to rupture the country for decades; mind you leaving could have a similar effect
There are strong views on both sides with ever increasing inappropriate accusations and arrogance that one view is right and anything else is uneducated, and never mind the oldies as they will soon have died.
As an oldie I do find that offensive, not least because both my wife and I voted remain.
Maybe the temperature needs dialling down but it does seem unlikely
As I said May has privatbackstop even if it opposed Chequers)
You really do not get it. You do not know what has been agreed and with respect you are beginning to look, to be kind, unwise and stuck in your ways
HYUFD was convinced that ending WFA in England but keeping it in Scotland was going to be a big vote winner ... in England.
HYUFD has expressed with certainty that many things were going to happen, which didn't, and with equal certainty, that many historic xs were the result of ys, without any more than his own confirmation bias to back it up.
Over, and over, and over again. He definitely has the huge post count to show for it!
His current blind spot seems to be that the most Unionist of Unionists see the peril in accepting the backstop. But no, HYUFD, the oracle of all things past and future, can cite a single poll based on a future hypothetical to confound all real evidence and common sense...
61% of Northern Ireland voters want to stay in the Single Market and Customs Union.
In the event of a 'hard' Brexit more than 50% of Catholics say they would vote for a United Ireland compared to less than a third while NI remains in the EU.
Yet you continue with your absurd finger in your ears No Deal Brexit fanaticism claiming somehow a backstop which is backed by most NI voters and protects the Good Friday Agreement is a threat to the Union when it is blatantly obvious that it is No Deal which poses the threat to both the Union and the economy
Nothing will happen. Absolutely nothing. It won't be significant in any way. I mean, what do you feel right now? Nothing. Right?
As I sit here, and the Camden partygoers rock to the pub, and the students queue for the Jazz cafe, and the homeless Roma beg outside Whole Foods, it feels as if there had never been a #PeoplesVoteMarch at all.
It is poignant, how life moves on so swiftly. So brutally.
If we crash out with No Deal though there will soon be millions on the streets demanding EUref2, getting half a million on the streets of London today was a warning shot that we need a Deal
17.4 million people voting for Leave was the biggest warning shot in the history of our democracy, that the system is broken and no longer working for huge parts of society.
There's a name for half a million people campaigning for the status quo. It's called the establishment.
Astonishingly stupid comment.
I'm afraid he's right tho. That march, for all its impressive size, looked far too much like a bunch of middle class people having a jolly day out in rich, royal, Remainery London, in the warm October sun. I wonder how many of them took the chance to see a show this evening, or visit that new Korean restaurant they read about in the Guardian.
It was oddly unmoving, in the way that marches are in the UK. It was peculiarly unserious.
If they really wanted to impress, or astonish, then half a million people should have dressed in black and marched in total silence through Sunderland or Macclesfield or Stoke. THAT would have been different. THAT would have been moving.
Nothing will happen. Absolutely nothing. It won't be significant in any way. I mean, what do you feel right now? Nothing. Right?
As I sit here, and the Camden partygoers rock to the pub, and the students queue for the Jazz cafe, and the homeless Roma beg outside Whole Foods, it feels as if there had never been a #PeoplesVoteMarch at all.
It is poignant, how life moves on so swiftly. So brutally.
If we crash out with No Deal though there will soon be millions on the streets demanding EUref2, getting half a million on the streets of London for EUref2 today was a warning shot that we need a Deal
It will be all over by then though, they would need to start a re-join campaign which could take years and will the EU even still exist in say 20 years time?
Also there would need to be at least 17,410,742 of them.
No, if the negotiations end in November with No Deal that gives 4 months until Brexit day for EUref2 mass demonstrations and indeed an EU ref2 leading to a Remain vote before we are actually due to leave. Brexit can still be cancelled if it is seen by a majority of voters as on unacceptable terms.
To be honest with 40 Tory MPs led by Amber Rudd ready to vote with the opposition for EUref2 over No Deal they would probably get it.
Plus don't forget 16, 141, 241 voted Remain too
So who proposes the legislation?
Backbenchers, the opposition etc.
However given May has apparently told Varadkar already in private she backs a permanent backstop for NI I doubt it will be needed, May will get the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period.
They can’t propose legislation (setting aside private members bills which are easy to kill)
If private members bills have a clear majority of the House as EUref2 would in the event of No Deal they would be much more difficult to kill. If No Deal the Government will also not be able to get anything through, Soubry, Grieve etc will filibuster every government bill until they get the EUref2 vote they want
You can’t filibuster in the U.K. since the guilotine was introduced.
And private member bills have only limited time allowed. It’s up to Leadsom’s discretion to give them more time
I have evolved over the last few weeks into moving neutral, apart from WTO which I reject
The demonstration was impressive but it looked a very middle class event, and of course held in remain London where both the mayor and the standard promoted it.
Farage counter march looked absolutely dead on its feet with only a handful of marchers. ...
There are strong views on both sides with ever increasing inappropriate accusations and arrogance that one view is right and anything else is uneducated, and never mind the oldies as they will soon have died.
As an oldie I do find that offensive, not least because both my wife and I voted remain.
Maybe the temperature needs dialling down but it does seem unlikely
As I said May has privatbackstop even if it opposed Chequers)
You really do not get it. You do not know what has been agreed and with respect you are beginning to look, to be kind, unwise and stuck in your ways
HYUFD was convinced that ending WFA in England but keeping it in Scotland was going to be a big vote winner ... in England.
HYUFD has expressed with certainty that many things were going to happen, which didn't, and with equal certainty, that many historic xs were the result of ys, without any more than his own confirmation bias to back it up.
Over, and over, and over again. He definitely has the huge post count to show for it!
His current blind spot seems to be that the most Unionist of Unionists see the peril in accepting the backstop. But no, HYUFD, the oracle of all things past and future, can cite a single poll based on a future hypothetical to confound all real evidence and common sense...
61% of Northern Ireland voters want to stay in the Single Market and Customs Union.
In the event of a 'hard' Brexit more than 50% of Catholics say they would vote for a United Ireland compared to less than a third while NI remains in the EU.
Yet continue with your absurd finger in your ears No Deal Brexit fanaticism claiming somehow a backstop which is backed by most NI voters is a threat to the Union when it is blatantly obvious that it is No Deal which poses the threat to both the Union and the economy
"My father was a diplomat. He earned a modest Civil Service salary. But my mother had inherited a few thousand pounds from her late father. So in 1964 they used that money to buy a five-bedroom detached house opposite Kew Gardens in south-west London. It cost £8,000."
' It has been at least 20 years since I realised that, even though I was earning more than my father had ever made in his life, I could never hope to afford to live in a house like the one I grew up in, nor give my children the kind of education he provided for me and my sisters. '
What we've been seeing at various speeds and to varying extents around the country is middle class regression.
The author is a writer who was educated at Eton and grew up in a detached house in Richmond Park.
He lives in what he describes as a 'rambling old cottage with a lovely garden' near Chichester and his children went to a local primary and a West Sussex comprehensive, Bishop Luffa, rated Outstanding. Please forgive me if I do not shed too many tears over this tale of woe and downward mobility, it is hardly Dickensian!
The interesting thing about it for me was that a house that would be worth several millions today was only worth £155,000 in today's money in 1964.
It is poignant, how life moves on so swiftly. So brutally.
If we crash out with No Deal though there will soon be millions on the streets demanding EUref2, getting half a million on the streets of London for EUref2 today was a warning shot that we need a Deal
It will be all over by then though, they would need to start a re-join campaign which could take years and will the EU even still exist in say 20 years time?
Also there would need to be at least 17,410,742 of them.
Plus don't forget 16, 141, 241 voted Remain too
So who proposes the legislation?
Backbenchers, the opposition etc.
However given May has apparently told Varadkar already in private she backs a permanent backstop for NI I doubt it will be needed, May will get the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period.
I wonder if you ever take a newspaper report or opinion poll as anything other than gospel
Sometimes a degree of cynicism is wise
This was not a newspaper report or poll it was a direct quote from the Irish PM.
As is now blatantly obvious May has no intention whatsoever of going to No Deal, she is just focused on how she will get the backstop through Parliament
And you fall for it
For goodness sake BigG look at the facts, if there is no permanent backstop we crash out with No Deal, basta, finito.
May knows that and May will do the necessary cave (even if it is hedged by some condition or test to be met before it ceases to apply)
Do not hector me.
You are entitled to your opinions but that is what they are
I do not trust a lot of your facts, as all the years I was in business and my nterest in poltics I have always sought out second opinions
I was invited to stand for the party in the Welsh Assembly elections yesterday but unfortunately that ship has sailed. Ironically I was asked when I was 22 to stand for the party for Caernarfonshire CC. Unfortunately that was when I was building a business and having my children
If I had been elected to office I would have been very thorough in making decisions based on many sources of information
Nothing will happen. Absolutely nothing. It won't be significant in any way. I mean, what do you feel right now? Nothing. Right?
As I sit here, and the Camden partygoers rock to the pub, and the students queue for the Jazz cafe, and the homeless Roma beg outside Whole Foods, it feels as if there had never been a #PeoplesVoteMarch at all.
It is poignant, how life moves on so swiftly. So brutally.
If we crash out with No Deal though there will soon be millions on the streets demanding EUref2, getting half a million on the streets of London for EUref2 today was a warning shot that we need a Deal
It will be all over by then though, they would need to start a re-join campaign which could take years and will the EU even still exist in say 20 years time?
Also there would need to be at least 17,410,742 of them.
No, if the negotiations end in November with No Deal that gives 4 months until Brexit day for EUref2 mass demonstrations and indeed an EU ref2 leading to a Remain vote before we are actually due to leave. Brexit can still be cancelled if it is seen by a majority of voters as on unacceptable terms.
To be honest with 40 Tory MPs led by Amber Rudd ready to vote with the opposition for EUref2 over No Deal they would probably get it.
Plus don't forget 16, 141, 241 voted Remain too
So who proposes the legislation?
Backbenchers, th.
They can’t propose legislation (setting aside private members bills which are easy to kill)
The legislation will probably have Dominic Raab's name on it.
People tend to overthink Brexit because it's so complex, but in terms of the outcome from Article 50 it's very simple. There are only three possibilities: no deal, a ratified Withdrawal Agreement or Remain. Parliament doesn't have a mandate to decide to Remain, so it has to go back to the people otherwise they just face a Hobson's choice and parliamentary sovereignty is meaningless.
Parliamentary Sovereignty is being actively employed right now
That’s why it is Theresa May (as the Crown in Parliament) negotiating Brexit not the Queen.
And May as Varadkar confirmed yesterday accepts in private there has to be an untimelimited backstop
What "chaos" ? I've not seen any "chaos" except for Remain politicians and the establishment throwing an almighty strop and trying every trick in the book to thrwart the vote.
Other than that everything has been fine... Including the economic numbers which have all gone in the right direction over the past few months.
We haven't left yet and if anything there is a growing expectation that we will probably remain in the EU or at worst BINO.
And then the remainers were proved absolutely correct and the chaos unfolded exactly as everyone told you they would.
So again I ask, what "chaos" has there actually been?
A 15% drop in the value of the £, the UK has become a laughing stock on the international stage, its internal governmental and political processes are paralysed, it is unable to decide what it wants for its future relationship with the EU, its prime minister is openly derided by members of the cabinet and businesses are preparing to relocate operations abroad. Shortages of food and medicine loom - the government has said it must stockpile. The continued existence of the 300 year old union is widely questioned.
Seems pretty chaotic to me.
And yet unemployment is at a record low, the economy is still growing (not brilliantly, but about the same as France or Italy), we had a lovely summer, the deficit is slowly being fixed, the autumn is proving sunny, England did OK in the World Cup, we're all still going on holiday, Christmas is coming.
It just doesn't *feel* Armagedonny, outside the bubble of Twitter and PB.
No. It's rather like August 1914. We are drifting toward disaster but the trajectory does not seem threatening to most people. And by the time they realise what is happening it may well be too late.
Maybe we are and maybe we're not.
Aside from all the doom and disaster predictions about Brexit which haven't come true these things have also not happened:
There wasn't a nuclear war The oil didn't run out There wasn't a new ice age The rainforests / oceans / birds / bees didn't die out We didn't all die of AIDS / Ebola / Bird Flu / BSE The millennium bug didn't crash every IT system Every Arab government wasn't overthrown by Saddam / Al Qaeda supporters
Nothing will happen. Absolutely nothing. It won't be significant in any way. I mean, what do you feel right now? Nothing. Right?
As I sit here, and the Camden partygoers rock to the pub, and the students queue for the Jazz cafe, and the homeless Roma beg outside Whole Foods, it feels as if there had never been a #PeoplesVoteMarch at all.
It is poignant, how life moves on so swiftly. So brutally.
...
It will be all over by then though, they would need to start a re-join campaign which could take years and will the EU even still exist in say 20 years time?
Also there would need to be at least 17,410,742 of them.
No, if the negotiations end in November with No Deal that gives 4 months until Brexit day for EUref2 mass demonstrations and indeed an EU ref2 leading to a Remain vote before we are actually due to leave. Brexit can still be cancelled if it is seen by a majority of voters as on unacceptable terms.
To be honest with 40 Tory MPs led by Amber Rudd ready to vote with the opposition for EUref2 over No Deal they would probably get it.
Plus don't forget 16, 141, 241 voted Remain too
So who proposes the legislation?
Backbenchers, the opposition etc.
However given May has apparently told Varadkar already in private she backs a permanent backstop for NI I doubt it will be needed, May will get the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period.
They can’t propose legislation (setting aside private members bills which are easy to kill)
If private members bills have a clear majority of the House as EUref2 would in the event of No Deal they would be much more difficult to kill. If No Deal the Government will also not be able to get anything through, Soubry, Grieve etc will filibuster every government bill until they get the EUref2 vote they want
You can’t filibuster in the U.K. since the guilotine was introduced.
And private member bills have only limited time allowed. It’s up to Leadsom’s discretion to give them more time
The one great PB revelation that Brexit has brought is how little about our own political set up is understood.
I for one will be hoping that, whatever the deal, the misunderstanding of parly sovereignty will continue to be reposted on here weekly - for the general edification of those who won't understand....
If they really wanted to impress, or astonish, then half a million people should have dressed in black and marched in total silence through Sunderland or Macclesfield or Stoke. THAT would have been different. THAT would have been moving.
Macclesfield? The Surrey of the North? Have you ever been there?
But I take your point. As I said yesterday, it's actually difficult for a march to change anything or even change opinions. It does raise salience and makes it harder for decisions to drift through unchallenged, and that was really the point.
If No Deal on the cards I also expect Sturgeon early next year to say she will be calling indyref2 in the next few months
I doubt it. Far too risky. The SNP need a consistent lead of 5-10 points for YES for about a year before they can dare to ask the people again. A 2nd lost vote would end indy for 30 years, and destroy her party and her career, at the same time.
And she woule.
Survation Yes 52% No 48% if No Deal Brexit.
Hardline Brexiteers are dicing with death with the Union if they push No Deal
The Very Worst Case Scenario Brexit produces the tiniest MOE lead for YES? In one poll?
I'm sorry, but it's not persuasive. I'm not denying that the Union is in peril (it is, but it was in peril long before Brexit) I'm just saying wiser heads than yours in the SNP will be looking at these polls and thinking Nope, not yet.
They know they have one more shot at this (or it's curtains forever, basically)
This is not the optimal moment, people do not vote for extra and severe turmoil in a period of severe turmoil, even if they do wish they could exit the whole thing.
I would rather not dice with death with both the Union and the economy thankyou very much on a No Deal Brexit even most UK voters oppose.
The hardline SNP base will force Sturgeon into indyref2 if No Deal even if she has reservations or they could topple her
"My father was a diplomat. He earned a modest Civil Service salary. But my mother had inherited a few thousand pounds from her late father. So in 1964 they used that money to buy a five-bedroom detached house opposite Kew Gardens in south-west London. It cost £8,000."
' It has been at least 20 years since I realised that, even though I was earning more than my father had ever made in his life, I could never hope to afford to live in a house like the one I grew up in, nor give my children the kind of education he provided for me and my sisters. '
What we've been seeing at various speeds and to varying extents around the country is middle class regression.
The author is a writer who was educated at Eton and had a detached house in Richmond Park.
He lives in what he describes as a 'rambling old cottage with a lovely garden' near Chichester and his children went to a local primary and a West Sussex comprehensive, Bishop Luffa, rated Outstanding. Please forgive me if I do not shed too many tears over this tale of woe and downward mobility, it is hardly Dickensian!
But it is a fact that home ownership levels have fallen significantly among the young during the last two decades.
Though not as quickly as student debts have risen.
We London middle classes aged 45 and under have just had to reduce our expectations.
My mate, a QC, lives in a slightly cramped house in Hackney. It’s considered fancy by local standards but nevertheless, it’s Hackney. I live down the road. We hang in a group of corporate lawyers who have all had to make do somehow.
A generation ago, we’d all be in 5-beds in Hampstead.
But the question is why exactly have people had to reduce their expectations? There doesn't seem to be a clear answer to that question. Is it due to foreign millionaires buying London property to use as a piggy bank? Is it because the population has risen by 10 million over the last 20 years? Is it because a lot of people who would have lived in council houses 50 years ago are now competing with everyone else to buy property?
And May as Varadkar confirmed yesterday accepts in private there has to be an untimelimited backstop
So you believe the secondary source (Varadkar) over the Primary one (May)?
May told MPs in the House of Commons on Monday: “It must be the case, first, that the backstop should not need to come into force; secondly, that if it does, it must be temporary; and, thirdly, while I do not believe that this will be the case, that if the EU were not to cooperate on our future relationship, we must be able to ensure that we cannot be kept in this backstop arrangement indefinitely.”
I have evolved over the last few weeks into moving neutral, apart from WTO which I reject
The demonstration was impressive but it looked a very middle class event, and of course held in remain London where both the mayor and the standard promoted it.
Farage counter march looked absolutely dead on its feet with only a handful of marchers.
I think hard brexit has now gone, even if it was ever likely, but the move there is a move towards a BINO deal or a second referendum, even though I do not quite understand how we get there.
But let those who want to remain or stop brexit understand this has the potential to rupture the country for decades; mind you leaving could have a similar effect
There are strong views on both sides with ever increasing inappropriate accusations and arrogance that one view is right and anything else is uneducated, and never mind the oldies as they will soon have died.
As an oldie I do find that offensive, not least because both my wife and I voted remain.
Maybe the temperature needs dialling down but it does seem unlikely
As I said May has privately already agreed a permanent CU+SM NI backstop with Varadkar and the EU which will enable the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period as Varadkar effectively confirmed yesterday, she just has not told the ERG and DUP yet which is the hard bit.
She will likely have to rely on Labour and LD votes to get it passed (Starmer said on QT Labour backed the NI backstop even if it opposed Chequers)
You really do not get it. You do not know what has been agreed and with respect you are beginning to look, to be kind, unwise and stuck in your ways
Varadkar said yesterday May agreed with him there had to be a NI backstop and it had to be permanent and without a time limit. The backstop of course is the only way to avoid No Deal and May knows that
May told MPs in the House of Commons on Monday: “It must be the case, first, that the backstop should not need to come into force; secondly, that if it does, it must be temporary; and, thirdly, while I do not believe that this will be the case, that if the EU were not to cooperate on our future relationship, we must be able to ensure that we cannot be kept in this backstop arrangement indefinitely.”
Her proposal to extend the transition by a year is her attempt to convince her backbenchers the backstop will never need to be enforced
And May as Varadkar confirmed yesterday accepts in private there has to be an untimelimited backstop
So you believe the secondary source (Varadkar) over the Primary one (May)?
May told MPs in the House of Commons on Monday: “It must be the case, first, that the backstop should not need to come into force; secondly, that if it does, it must be temporary; and, thirdly, while I do not believe that this will be the case, that if the EU were not to cooperate on our future relationship, we must be able to ensure that we cannot be kept in this backstop arrangement indefinitely.”
As I have said the transition extension is May's means of convincing her backbenchers the backstop will never need to be enforced as the future trading relationship will have been agreed in the transition
Wandering around London this evening it seems the marchers were in good spirits. This was not about changing TM mind but solidifying the opposition. In this regards it appears to have been a great success. The Labour Party grass roots are more united begin the campaign now. It will not change anything on its own but the pressure is increasing.
Business overall is not behind Brexit so it’s investment in a post Brexit world is minimal. I know from my company in that we have done nothing different as a result of the vote. Yet over 70% of our business is international. I cannot see how Brexit will make my world better but can see how it will make it worse. I refuse to believe the tory party would do something as stupid as mess up my business so expect BINO in the end.
"My father was a diplomat. He earned a modest Civil Service salary. But my mother had inherited a few thousand pounds from her late father. So in 1964 they used that money to buy a five-bedroom detached house opposite Kew Gardens in south-west London. It cost £8,000."
' It has been at least 20 years since I realised that, even though I was earning more than my father had ever made in his life, I could never hope to afford to live in a house like the one I grew up in, nor give my children the kind of education he provided for me and my sisters. '
What we've been seeing at various speeds and to varying extents around the country is middle class regression.
The author is a writer who was educated at Eton and grew up in a detached house in Richmond Park.
He lives in what he describes as a 'rambling old cottage with a lovely garden' near Chichester and his children went to a local primary and a West Sussex comprehensive, Bishop Luffa, rated Outstanding. Please forgive me if I do not shed too many tears over this tale of woe and downward mobility, it is hardly Dickensian!
The interesting thing about it for me was that a house that would be worth several millions today was only worth £155,000 in today's money in 1964.
It does seem odd that home ownership in that era wasn't higher.
But then people had to spend a much higher proportion of their income on food and other essentials.
I have evolved over the last few weeks into moving neutral, apart from WTO which I reject
The demonstration was impressive but it looked a very middle class event, and of course held in remain London where both the mayor and the standard promoted it.
Farage counter march looked absolutely dead on its feet with only a handful of marchers.
I think hard brexit has now gone, even if it was ever likely, but the move there is a move towards a BINO deal or a second referendum, even though I do not quite understand how we get there.
But let those who want to remain or stop brexit understand this has the potential to rupture the country for decades; mind you leaving could have a similar effect
There are strong views on both sides with ever increasing inappropriate accusations and arrogance that one view is right and anything else is uneducated, and never mind the oldies as they will soon have died.
As an oldie I do find that offensive, not least because both my wife and I voted remain.
Maybe the temperature needs dialling down but it does seem unlikely
As I said May has privately already agreed a permanent CU+SM NI backstop with Varadkar and the EU which will enable the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period as Varadkar effectively confirmed yesterday, she just has not told the ERG and DUP yet which is the hard bit.
She will likely have to rely on Labour and LD votes to get it passed (Starmer said on QT Labour backed the NI backstop even if it opposed Chequers)
You really do not get it. You do not know what has been agreed and with respect you are beginning to look, to be kind, unwise and stuck in your ways
Varadkar said yesterday May agreed with him there had to be a NI backstop and it had to be permanent and without a time limit. The backstop of course is the only way to avoid No Deal and May knows that
May told MPs in the House of Commons on Monday: “It must be the case, first, that the backstop should not need to come into force; secondly, that if it does, it must be temporary; and, thirdly, while I do not believe that this will be the case, that if the EU were not to cooperate on our future relationship, we must be able to ensure that we cannot be kept in this backstop arrangement indefinitely.”
Her proposal to extend the transition by a year is her attempt to convince her backbenchers the backstop will never need to be enforced
Where has May said she wants to extend the transition 'for a year'?
I have evolved over the last few weeks into moving neutral, apart from WTO which I reject
The demonstration was impressive but it looked a very middle class event, and of course held in remain London where both the mayor and the standard promoted it.
Farage counter march looked absolutely dead on its feet with only a handful of marchers.
I think hard brexit has now gone, even if it was ever likely, but the move there is a move towards a BINO deal or a second referendum, even though I do not quite understand how we get there.
But let those who want to remain or stop brexit understand this has the potential to rupture the country for decades; mind you leaving could have a similar effect
There are strong views on both sides with ever increasing inappropriate accusations and arrogance that one view is right and anything else is uneducated, and never mind the oldies as they will soon have died.
As an oldie I do find that offensive, not least because both my wife and I voted remain.
Maybe the temperature needs dialling down but it does seem unlikely
As I said May has privately already agreed a permanent CU+SM NI backstop with Varadkar and the EU which will enable the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period as Varadkar effectively confirmed yesterday, she just has not told the ERG and DUP yet which is the hard bit.
She will likely have to rely on Labour and LD votes to get it passed (Starmer said on QT Labour backed the NI backstop even if it opposed Chequers)
You really do not get it. You do not know what has been agreed and with respect you are beginning to look, to be kind, unwise and stuck in your ways
Varadkar said yesterday May agreed with him there had to be a NI backstop and it had to be permanent and without a time limit. The backstop of course is the only way to avoid No Deal and May knows that
May told MPs in the House of Commons on Monday: “It must be the case, first, that the backstop should not need to come into force; secondly, that if it does, it must be temporary; and, thirdly, while I do not believe that this will be the case, that if the EU were not to cooperate on our future relationship, we must be able to ensure that we cannot be kept in this backstop arrangement indefinitely.”
Her proposal to extend the transition by a year is her attempt to convince her backbenchers the backstop will never need to be enforced
Telegraph headline: 'Dominic Raab: Drop the backstop or the UK will not extend Brexit transition period'
It isn't an effort to convince the backbenchers, its an attempt to convince the EU that the backstop is unnecessary, and therefore dropped.
And yet unemployment is at a record low, the economy is still growing (not brilliantly, but about the same as France or Italy), we had a lovely summer, the deficit is slowly being fixed, the autumn is proving sunny, England did OK in the World Cup, we're all still going on holiday, Christmas is coming.
It just doesn't *feel* Armagedonny, outside the bubble of Twitter and PB.
Dixiedean
Well yes. The above is all true. And Labour is led by a figure far from the mainstream. Therefore, one may turn the usual question on its head. Namely, why aren't the Tories 10-15 % ahead n the polls? The answer is of course Brexit. Kick away the decent economy, and not much is left. Any recession, (and we, and the World in general, are overdue one), will be blamed on Brexit. Some because it wasn't hard enough, others because it happened at all. And that is how you end up with PM Corbyn.
Oh and congrats to @casinoroyale. And well done @murali for direct action the other day.
It is poignant, how life moves on so swiftly. So brutally.
If we crash out wal
It will be all over by then thout least 17,410,742 of them.
Plus don't forget 16, 141, 241 voted Remain too
So who proposes the legislation?
Backbenchers, the opposition etc.
However given May has apparently told Varadkar already in private she backs a permanent backstop for NI I doubt it will be needed, May will get the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period.
I wonder if you ever take a newspaper report or opinion poll as anything other than gospel
Sometimes a degree of cynicism is wise
This was not a newspaper report or poll it was a Parliament
And you fall for it
For goodness sake BigG look at the facts, if there is no permanent backstop we crash out with No Deal, basta, finito.
May knows that and May will do the necessary cave (even if it is hedged by some condition or test to be met before it ceases to apply)
Do not hector me.
You are entitled to your opinions but that is what they are
I do not trust a lot of your facts, as all the years I was in business and my nterest in poltics I have always sought out second opinions
I was invited to stand for the party in the Welsh Assembly elections yesterday but unfortunately that ship has sailed. Ironically I was asked when I was 22 to stand for the party for Caernarfonshire CC. Unfortunately that was when I was building a business and having my children
If I had been elected to office I would have been very thorough in making decisions based on many sources of information
Don't go getting all high and mighty with me, just a few weeks ago you were going on about the calamity of No Deal Brexit for Airbus etc and of course without the backstop there will be No Deal and you and your son in law can say bye bye Airbus.
We are supposed to be on the same page on this, I suggest you turn your fire on the real enemy, the No Deal Brexit diehards
Nothing will happen. Absolutely nothing. It won't be significant in any way. I mean, what do you feel right now? Nothing. Right?
As I sit here, and the Camden partygoers rock to the pub, and the students queue for the Jazz cafe, and the homeless Roma beg outside Whole Foods, it feels as if there had never been a #PeoplesVoteMarch at all.
It is poignant, how life moves on so swiftly. So brutally.
If we crash out with No Deal though there will soon be millions on the streets demanding EUref2, getting half a million on the streets of London for EUref2 today was a warning shot that we need a Deal
It will be all over by then though, they would need to start a re-join campaign which could take years and will the EU even still exist in say 20 years time?
Also there would need to be at least 17,410,742 of them.
No, if the negotiations end in Novemly get it.
Plus don't forget 16, 141, 241 voted Remain too
So who proposes the legislation?
Backbenchers, the opposition etc.
However given May has apparently told Varadkar already in private she backs a permanent backstop for NI I doubt it will be needed, May will get the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period.
They can’t propose legislation (setting aside private members bills which are easy to kill)
If private members bills have a clear majority of the House as EUref2 would in the event of No Deal they would be much more difficult to kill. If No Deal the Government will also not be able to get anything through, Soubry, Grieve etc will filibuster every government bill until they get the EUref2 vote they want
You can’t filibuster in the U.K. since the guilotine was introduced.
And private member bills have only limited time allowed. It’s up to Leadsom’s discretion to give them more time
If No Deal there will be nothing but EUref2 private members bills and with a clear majority of the Commons in favour of EUref2 over No deal it only takes one to get through in time for EUref2 to pass the Commons
I have evolved over the last few weeks into moving neutral, apart from WTO which I reject
The demonstration was impressive but it looked a very middle class event, and of course held in remain London where both the mayor and the standard promoted it.
Farage counter march looked absolutely dead on its feet with only a handful of marchers. ...
There are strong views on both sides with ever increasing inappropriate accusations and arrogance that one view is right and anything else is uneducated, and never mind the oldies as they will soon have died.
As an oldie I do find that offensive, not least because both my wife and I voted remain.
Maybe the temperature needs dialling down but it does seem unlikely
As I said May has privatbackstop even if it opposed Chequers)
You really do not get it. You do not know what has been agreed and with respect you are beginning to look, to be kind, unwise and stuck in your ways
HYUFD was convinced that ending WFA in England but keeping it in Scotland was going to be a big vote winner ... in England.
HYUFD has expressed with certainty that many things were going to happen, which didn't, and with equal certainty, that many historic xs were the result of ys, without any more than his own confirmation bias to back it up.
Over, and over, and over again. He definitely has the huge post count to show for it!
His current blind spot seems to be that the most Unionist of Unionists see the peril in accepting the backstop. But no, HYUFD, the oracle of all things past and future, can cite a single poll based on a future hypothetical to confound all real evidence and common sense...
61% of Northern Ireland voters want to stay in the Single Market and Customs Union.
In the event of a 'hard' Brexit more than 50% of Catholics say they would vote for a United Ireland compared to less than a third while NI remains in the EU.
Yet continue with your absurd finger in poses the threat to both the Union and the economy
Comments
I suspect the results would be instructive and put to bed this idea of cohorts holding fixed political views. But it would be a bit of work - even if the format of the Mori data tables hasn't changed in forty years.
If you want a visual reminder here's Richard Branson claiming 3,000 jobs losses already on the Monday after the Referendum:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GQZyP_Odio
Now what will happen in the future we don't know but predictions of doom and disaster struggle for credibility these days.
https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2016-eu-referendum
However given May has apparently told Varadkar already in private she backs a permanent backstop for NI I doubt it will be needed, May will get the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period.
If Tory Brexiteers and the DUP manage to block the backstop they risk no Brexit at all
It's harder for Labour MPs to mount a leadership challenge against a sitting Labour PM than it is for the Tories to do it against a Tory one.
So again I ask, what "chaos" has there actually been?
The ironic thing is, when I was at university, I was being told by people with their own homes and secure careers that the best way to show I was employable was to show I could do the job even without being paid for it. Now I've done years of voluntary work to finally break though into a narrow field, I'm being told that working for free to follow a passion is a demonstration of entitlement.
The polling shows only 45% of the country backs No Deal, with 55% backing Remain if that is the alternative, if Brexiteers are so stupid as to push No Deal they will enable Remainers to overturn a narrow Leave EUref win of 52% Leave 48% Remain and cancel Brexit
It is hardliners like you and Archer who will destroy Brexit rather than engage in a pragmatic Brexit that sustains a longterm majority
http://uk.businessinsider.com/yougov-poll-voters-would-rather-remain-in-eu-than-accept-a-no-deal-brexit-2018-7
People tend to overthink Brexit because it's so complex, but in terms of the outcome from Article 50 it's very simple. There are only three possibilities: no deal, a ratified Withdrawal Agreement or Remain. Parliament doesn't have a mandate to decide to Remain, so it has to go back to the people otherwise they just face a Hobson's choice and parliamentary sovereignty is meaningless.
Think I heard that somewhere before....
Like Communism and certain belief systems, its all a one way door.
(that's not me, btw)
The demonstration was impressive but it looked a very middle class event, and of course held in remain London where both the mayor and the standard promoted it.
Farage counter march looked absolutely dead on its feet with only a handful of marchers.
I think hard brexit has now gone, even if it was ever likely, but the move there is a move towards a BINO deal or a second referendum, even though I do not quite understand how we get there.
But let those who want to remain or stop brexit understand this has the potential to rupture the country for decades; mind you leaving could have a similar effect
There are strong views on both sides with ever increasing inappropriate accusations and arrogance that one view is right and anything else is uneducated, and never mind the oldies as they will soon have died.
As an oldie I do find that offensive, not least because both my wife and I voted remain.
Maybe the temperature needs dialling down but it does seem unlikely
She will likely have to rely on Labour and LD votes to get it passed (Starmer said on QT Labour backed the NI backstop even if it opposed Chequers)
In fact I think you have said they will never win another election in 30 years.
That is your own bitterness as your particular brexit dream dies in front of your eyes
They don't turn out to protest on Saturday afternoon's in London... But they do VOTE!
He spent six months living during the week in the tent, which was only a bit bigger than my main backpacking tent.
I can understand wanting to save money, but that seemed a trifle ridiculous.
Sometimes a degree of cynicism is wise
As is now blatantly obvious May has no intention whatsoever of going to No Deal, she is just focused on how she will get the backstop through Parliament
Seems pretty chaotic to me.
The establishment safety valve for dealing with a Leave vote seems to have been economic difficulties followed by government unpopularity followed by cancellation of Brexit.
Its noticeable that whenever there has been any disappointing economic data or economic scare stories PB gets tweets pasted.
Don't remember any though in last week's economic data heavy week
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1053242539468296192?s=20
If No Deal on the cards I also expect Sturgeon early next year to say she will be calling indyref2 in the next few months
Oh wait ...
Once the No Deal implications become clear, and they will, the polls will shift pretty quickly, of course Remain is preferred to No Deal in the polls even now
Varadkar said yesterday May agreed with him there had to be a NI backstop and it had to be permanent and without a time limit. The backstop of course is the only way to avoid No Deal and May knows that
https://www.politico.eu/article/theresa-may-told-irish-pm-leo-varadkar-brexit-backstop-cant-have-time-limit/
May knows that and May will do the necessary cave (even if it is hedged by some condition or test to be met before it ceases to apply)
But no fanaticism has to conquer all!
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1053705793781071872
Hardline Brexiteers are dicing with death with the Union if they push No Deal
http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2018/10/stupefying-survation-survey-suggests.html
Not going on a pointless circle jerk.
Your posts are so dogmatic and at times comical.
It would help if you could demonstrate a degree of caution to retain credibility
http://uk.businessinsider.com/yougov-poll-voters-would-rather-remain-in-eu-than-accept-a-no-deal-brexit-2018-7
In all probability No Deal will destroy Brexit first but we shall see.
Of course without agreeing the NI backstop there will be No Deal
And when you try to tap into the magic money tree it tends to be loaded with caveats and strings. For example the role out of super fast broadband. The EU, along with many other public bodies put quite a bit of money into the project in my area. However they were the only public body that built in a three year delay, put hurdles in so high that community groups and companies without the power of BT just couldn’t bid for contracts. It was BT or nothing. And that was down to the European Commission.
Another example is the flooding in 2015 across the country. It was quite acute in my county. We had debates at council meetings, and lots of local newspaper articles about why hadn’t the government applied for funds from the EU solidarity fund. Eventually the government was pressured into applying. It got a notional £51 million which was clawed back except for about £500,000 from the rebate.
No way will Sturgeon request an Indy 2 immediately, she is far too astute a political operator
Over, and over, and over again. He definitely has the huge post count to show for it!
His current blind spot seems to be that the most Unionist of Unionists see the peril in accepting the backstop. But no, HYUFD, the oracle of all things past and future, can cite a single poll based on a future hypothetical to confound all real evidence and common sense...
If that happens nothing will change on the 30th March. There’ll be no UN food drops or Marshall law.
That’s why it is Theresa May (as the Crown in Parliament) negotiating Brexit not the Queen.
Harbingers of the end of days stalking the earth with their voices of woe and calamity.
In the event of a 'hard' Brexit more than 50% of Catholics say they would vote for a United Ireland compared to less than a third while NI remains in the EU.
Yet you continue with your absurd finger in your ears No Deal Brexit fanaticism claiming somehow a backstop which is backed by most NI voters and protects the Good Friday Agreement is a threat to the Union when it is blatantly obvious that it is No Deal which poses the threat to both the Union and the economy
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-44162470
And private member bills have only limited time allowed. It’s up to Leadsom’s discretion to give them more time
All that assertion indicates is a total lack of imagination, or understanding of how negotiation works.
You are entitled to your opinions but that is what they are
I do not trust a lot of your facts, as all the years I was in business and my nterest in poltics I have always sought out second opinions
I was invited to stand for the party in the Welsh Assembly elections yesterday but unfortunately that ship has sailed. Ironically I was asked when I was 22 to stand for the party for Caernarfonshire CC. Unfortunately that was when I was building a business and having my children
If I had been elected to office I would have been very thorough in making decisions based on many sources of information
Aside from all the doom and disaster predictions about Brexit which haven't come true these things have also not happened:
There wasn't a nuclear war
The oil didn't run out
There wasn't a new ice age
The rainforests / oceans / birds / bees didn't die out
We didn't all die of AIDS / Ebola / Bird Flu / BSE
The millennium bug didn't crash every IT system
Every Arab government wasn't overthrown by Saddam / Al Qaeda supporters
And I'm sure I've forgotten a few others.
I for one will be hoping that, whatever the deal, the misunderstanding of parly sovereignty will continue to be reposted on here weekly
But I take your point. As I said yesterday, it's actually difficult for a march to change anything or even change opinions. It does raise salience and makes it harder for decisions to drift through unchallenged, and that was really the point.
https://twitter.com/drjennings/status/1053762965172838400
The hardline SNP base will force Sturgeon into indyref2 if No Deal even if she has reservations or they could topple her
May told MPs in the House of Commons on Monday: “It must be the case, first, that the backstop should not need to come into force; secondly, that if it does, it must be temporary; and, thirdly, while I do not believe that this will be the case, that if the EU were not to cooperate on our future relationship, we must be able to ensure that we cannot be kept in this backstop arrangement indefinitely.”
It will not change anything on its own but the pressure is increasing.
Business overall is not behind Brexit so it’s investment in a post Brexit world is minimal. I know from my company in that we have done nothing different as a result of the vote. Yet over 70% of our business is international. I cannot see how Brexit will make my world better but can see how it will make it worse. I refuse to believe the tory party would do something as stupid as mess up my business so expect BINO in the end.
But then people had to spend a much higher proportion of their income on food and other essentials.
It isn't an effort to convince the backbenchers, its an attempt to convince the EU that the backstop is unnecessary, and therefore dropped.
And yet unemployment is at a record low, the economy is still growing (not brilliantly, but about the same as France or Italy), we had a lovely summer, the deficit is slowly being fixed, the autumn is proving sunny, England did OK in the World Cup, we're all still going on holiday, Christmas is coming.
It just doesn't *feel* Armagedonny, outside the bubble of Twitter and PB.
Dixiedean
Well yes. The above is all true. And Labour is led by a figure far from the mainstream. Therefore, one may turn the usual question on its head. Namely, why aren't the Tories 10-15 % ahead n the polls?
The answer is of course Brexit.
Kick away the decent economy, and not much is left. Any recession, (and we, and the World in general, are overdue one), will be blamed on Brexit. Some because it wasn't hard enough, others because it happened at all.
And that is how you end up with PM Corbyn.
Oh and congrats to @casinoroyale.
And well done @murali for direct action the other day.
We are supposed to be on the same page on this, I suggest you turn your fire on the real enemy, the No Deal Brexit diehards
Yet as usual you have your fingers in your ears with just a month of negotiations to go