Greetings from Parliament square! Massive crowds and very well behaved. A lot of people who look as if they would be natural Tory voters. Some quite matronly county set types asked me for some of my "Bollocks to Brexit" stickers.
Marchers dispersing to the pubs now, but still some haven't reached Parliament square
People's Vote campaign claiming 570,000 marching today which would overtake the 400,000 who attended the Countryside March and be the second biggest March in postwar UK history I think after the anti Iraq War March https://twitter.com/peoplesvote_uk/status/1053628358536429568?s=20
Bollocks.
What do you put the number on?
It will be somewhere north of 100k and beneath 500k. And it doesn't matter. It's not representative.
A big march but very far from the biggest ever.
The size of the march is unimportant. Britain is not an absolute monarchy or dictatorship in which the rulers can only gauge the mood of the people by what they do in the street.
We had a referendum, and the people voted to leave. That trumps any protest.
It was close and that was when Leavers were saying it would be easy, we hold the cards, sunlit uplands, £350m/week to NHS etc. Are you still saying those things? Things have changed, we don't have to cut off our nose to spite our face. https://www.buzzfeed.com/patricksmith/nobody-said-it-was-easy
I'm not lobbying for a second referendum, but if parliament et al legislate for one that would be absolutely fine by me.
If TMay's deal gets voted down, what other option would there be? No Deal or New Referendum. Are there any Brexiteers (Wrexiteers) who campaigned for No Deal?
I enjoy a good Internet argument as much as the next anonymous person, but this is an area where I fear to tread. May has proven to be completely unpredictable. I mean, yes, predictably shit and underperforming even my worst fears, but who knows what she'll do? She's notoriously secretive and non-collegiate.
Reading through the comments here today, I realise that *nothing* brings out the self-pitying whining of right wingers more than a mass protest.
In a liberal democracy with freedom of the press that has had a referendum on the issue in hand, a mass protest is the definition of self-pitying whining.
Today’s march will not change anyone’s mind. All it will do is consolidate existing views on both sides.
You'd prefer a liberal democracy with no right to protest?
I don't even know why it is being called a protest - I thought it was about asking for a second vote, which might well confirm the original decision or confirm something even worse - no deal Brexit.
If Brexit were going better there wouldn’t be a big turnout for such marches. Leavers could usefully reflect on why Brexit has become such a fiasco.
Because May has poor judgement and the team has handled negotiations appallingly badly from the beginning
As always, it’s never Leavers’ fault.
The seeds of the current debacle were sown in the referendum campaign that Leavers happily fell in behind. Winning with xenophobic lies was the catastrophe. The detail might have been finessed better but the trap was sprung then.
That's all well and good but the fact that TM went for the hardest of brexits and kept boxing herself into corners is as much to blame. (TBH there's more than enough blame to go around).
Had TM said when she became PM said "we are going to support a withdrawal from the EU and going to make it simpler by joining EFTA on a temporary basis with the long term goal of negotiating a UK specific deal" she'd have gotten through this first stage of negotiations much easier as enough Labour MPs would have supported the position to get it through the house of commons and still have claimed to have left the EU.
Just so everyone knows, the Brexit march is the lead story on CNN in the US.
Only kidding, it doesn't even get a mention.
More seriously, the Brexit march demonstrates that the wounds from Brexit will not heal easily.
The arguments we're having with Brussels are not the problem. In time, the UK and the EU will realise that they need to have a productive relationship, because it is both their best interests.
The problems we're having are internal. And part of the problem is that the political class is obsessed with the negotiations. We've perhaps never had a government so lacking in dialog with their own population.
I don't know what the solution is, because there Theresa May is emotionally unable to connect with people, and the negotiations are entering their final leg.
A lot of people who look as if they would be natural Tory voters.
I know we laugh about stereotypes of what supporters of political parties are like, I literally made a LD sandals cliche line a few minutes ago, but is it really ok, and certainly is it 'woke', to make a judgement about someone's likely political inclinations based on what they look like?
A lot of people who look as if they would be natural Tory voters.
I know we laugh about stereotypes of what supporters of political parties are like, I literally made a LD sandals cliche line a few minutes ago, but is it really ok, and certainly is it 'woke', to make a judgement about someone's likely political inclinations based on what they look like?
If Brexit were going better there wouldn’t be a big turnout for such marches. Leavers could usefully reflect on why Brexit has become such a fiasco.
Because May has poor judgement and the team has handled negotiations appallingly badly from the beginning
They are one and the same thing. appointing David Davis was always a mistake
Although he was sidelined by the PM right from the start
That's not a defence of him in the slightest, in fact it makes him sound cowardly and stupid, not sure if that was your intention or not. If he was sidelined from the start then he should have quit long long before he did. If he was sidelined at the last minute then at least he can claim surprise at being treated so.
If Brexit were going better there wouldn’t be a big turnout for such marches. Leavers could usefully reflect on why Brexit has become such a fiasco.
Because May has poor judgement and the team has handled negotiations appallingly badly from the beginning
As always, it’s never Leavers’ fault.
The seeds of the current debacle were sown in the referendum campaign that Leavers happily fell in behind. Winning with xenophobic lies was the catastrophe. The detail might have been finessed better but the trap was sprung then.
That's all well and good but the fact that TM went for the hardest of brexits and kept boxing herself into corners is as much to blame. (TBH there's more than enough blame to go around).
Had TM said when she became PM said "we are going to support a withdrawal from the EU and going to make it simpler by joining EFTA on a temporary basis with the long term goal of negotiating a UK specific deal" she'd have gotten through this first stage of negotiations much easier as enough Labour MPs would have supported the position to get it through the house of commons and still have claimed to have left the EU.
Leave campaigned on becoming a nation that turned its back on foreigners and giving more money to the NHS. Brexit has to deliver those two things. Unsurprisingly, the first of those has holed the whole enterprise beneath the waterline.
A lot of people who look as if they would be natural Tory voters.
I know we laugh about stereotypes of what supporters of political parties are like, I literally made a LD sandals cliche line a few minutes ago, but is it really ok, and certainly is it 'woke', to make a judgement about someone's likely political inclinations based on what they look like?
The Tory rosettes are a giveaway...
In which case they didn't look like they would be natural Tory voters, they were Tory voters (at one point at least). Sounds like a retcon to me, not sure why you wouldn't just say 'a lot of Tories' otherwise. I know when I see an MP elected, with their rosette prominently displayed, that I think 'The look like they would be a natural supporter of Party X'.
If Brexit were going better there wouldn’t be a big turnout for such marches. Leavers could usefully reflect on why Brexit has become such a fiasco.
Because May has poor judgement and the team has handled negotiations appallingly badly from the beginning
They are one and the same thing. appointing David Davis was always a mistake
Although he was sidelined by the PM right from the start
That's still not a sign of someone with good judgement. appoint someone to one of the most important roles in the government and then immediately sideline them. in fact that makes her judgement look worse to me
If Brexit were going better there wouldn’t be a big turnout for such marches. Leavers could usefully reflect on why Brexit has become such a fiasco.
Because May has poor judgement and the team has handled negotiations appallingly badly from the beginning
As always, it’s never Leavers’ fault.
The seeds of the current debacle were sown in the referendum campaign that Leavers happily fell in behind. Winning with xenophobic lies was the catastrophe. The detail might have been finessed better but the trap was sprung then.
That's all well and good but the fact that TM went for the hardest of brexits and kept boxing herself into corners is as much to blame. (TBH there's more than enough blame to go around).
Had TM said when she became PM said "we are going to support a withdrawal from the EU and going to make it simpler by joining EFTA on a temporary basis with the long term goal of negotiating a UK specific deal" she'd have gotten through this first stage of negotiations much easier as enough Labour MPs would have supported the position to get it through the house of commons and still have claimed to have left the EU.
Or if she had said “we assume we are leaving with no deal and are going to negotiate to get something better”
If Brexit were going better there wouldn’t be a big turnout for such marches. Leavers could usefully reflect on why Brexit has become such a fiasco.
Because May has poor judgement and the team has handled negotiations appallingly badly from the beginning
They are one and the same thing. appointing David Davis was always a mistake
Although he was sidelined by the PM right from the start
That's not a defence of him in the slightest, in fact it makes him sound cowardly and stupid, not sure if that was your intention or not. If he was sidelined from the start then he should have quit long long before he did. If he was sidelined at the last minute then at least he can claim surprise at being treated so.
Sorry he was overruled by the PM - as his her right. The point when he became aware he was sidelined was when the work he and his team was ready to publish was tossed in the bin and Chequers revealed
If Brexit were going better there wouldn’t be a big turnout for such marches. Leavers could usefully reflect on why Brexit has become such a fiasco.
Because May has poor judgement and the team has handled negotiations appallingly badly from the beginning
They are one and the same thing. appointing David Davis was always a mistake
Although he was sidelined by the PM right from the start
That's still not a sign of someone with good judgement. appoint someone to one of the most important roles in the government and then immediately sideline them. in fact that makes her judgement look worse to me
I misunderstood you - thought you were blaming Davies for May’s failed strategy
So (at least) over 96% of those who voted Remain couldn't be bothered to turn out on this march?
Interesting.
That has to be one of the most ridiculous statements made.
Why is that? The whole commentary about marches are ridiculous - by their nature while they can be big there is no guarantee they are representative of opinion 300k, 500k, 800k, 1million, all would be impressive numbers and worthy of praise, but neither number is any more of a guarantee that it is reflective of opinion. Indeed, at least on this issue the demand is for a vote to check if the people actually do want to do something rather thank blanket claiming for certain that the people want to remain (though I expect a few speakers will say that). But a large march just indicates a lot of people care about something. There is nothing particularly ridiculous is countering that many many many more did not care enough to march. It doesn't invalidate a march, but it is true nonetheless.
And personally I'm annoyed that a second referendum is clearly, for many, just a proxy for wanting to remain. If it is actually about confirming things it would be nice it things were more welcoming of deal supporters or even no dealers who want to extra confirm they are happy to go (though granted the latter are likely a smaller grouping).
I agree with your first para except the last couple of sentences. For CR to say it is 'interesting' that 96% could not be bothered is crass. Most protests only have a very small percentage of those who are very keen attending. A large turnout is a positive indication, although it isn't proof.
I'm involved in a campaign currently that represents the interest of approximately 3000 people. It is important to those 3000 people. Only just under 300 take an active involvement and only about 30 are actually running the show. They are all very supportive though.
Re this march I only know 2 people who are there, but dozens who aren't or can't be for various reasons but who heavily support it and I'm only 25 miles from it. If you are based 100s of miles away it is even a greater commitment and cost to make. Doesn't mean you are not keen.
I have never attended a march in my life (I'm in my 60s). If I could have done I would have done.
What’s incredible actually is that the “People’s Vote” campaign is totally insipid and smug. It’s probably turned as many off as on.
Even I as a die-hard Remainer can see this.
And yet still they come out to march, potentially in numbers not seen since the Iraq War.
It’s a proxy for the emotional reaction to the hopelessness of Brexit. If Brexit weren’t so bad that its execution was being disowned by everyone, it would be received with sullen acquiescence by even ardent Remain supporters. But as it is they feel obliged to demonstrate their hostility.
But 70 million don't feel the need to demonstrate.
Reading through the comments here today, I realise that *nothing* brings out the self-pitying whining of right wingers more than a mass protest.
In a liberal democracy with freedom of the press that has had a referendum on the issue in hand, a mass protest is the definition of self-pitying whining.
Today’s march will not change anyone’s mind. All it will do is consolidate existing views on both sides.
You'd prefer a liberal democracy with no right to protest?
I don't even know why it is being called a protest - I thought it was about asking for a second vote, which might well confirm the original decision or confirm something even worse - no deal Brexit.
There isn't a majority in parliament for any proposed plan. Even if there was it may get vetoed by the EU or the DUP. The way out for the politicians is to ask the people.
Just so everyone knows, the Brexit march is the lead story on CNN in the US.
Only kidding, it doesn't even get a mention.
More seriously, the Brexit march demonstrates that the wounds from Brexit will not heal easily.
The arguments we're having with Brussels are not the problem. In time, the UK and the EU will realise that they need to have a productive relationship, because it is both their best interests.
The problems we're having are internal. And part of the problem is that the political class is obsessed with the negotiations. We've perhaps never had a government so lacking in dialog with their own population.
I don't know what the solution is, because there Theresa May is emotionally unable to connect with people, and the negotiations are entering their final leg.
We've become a 'take it from them and give it to me' society.
The failure of the economy to 'life all boats' meant that for some to get richer wealth had to be transferred from others.
To justify this wealth transfer it was easier to demonise those from whom it was being taken.
Its a process which began about 15 years ago - when levels of home ownership started falling being a good indicator of a changing society.
If Brexit were going better there wouldn’t be a big turnout for such marches. Leavers could usefully reflect on why Brexit has become such a fiasco.
Because May has poor judgement and the team has handled negotiations appallingly badly from the beginning
As always, it’s never Leavers’ fault.
The seeds of the current debacle were sown in the referendum campaign that Leavers happily fell in behind. Winning with xenophobic lies was the catastrophe. The detail might have been finessed better but the trap was sprung then.
That's all well and good but the fact that TM went for the hardest of brexits and kept boxing herself into corners is as much to blame. (TBH there's more than enough blame to go around).
Had TM said when she became PM said "we are going to support a withdrawal from the EU and going to make it simpler by joining EFTA on a temporary basis with the long term goal of negotiating a UK specific deal" she'd have gotten through this first stage of negotiations much easier as enough Labour MPs would have supported the position to get it through the house of commons and still have claimed to have left the EU.
Or if she had said “we assume we are leaving with no deal and are going to negotiate to get something better”
But she started with something mushy
True, but going into EFTA wouldn't have upset the EU quite so much.
So (at least) over 96% of those who voted Remain couldn't be bothered to turn out on this march?
Interesting.
That has to be one of the most ridiculous statements made.
Why is that? The whole commentary about marches are ridiculous - by their nature while they can be big there is no guarantee they are representative of opinion 300k, 500k, 800k, 1million, all would be impressive numbers and worthy of praise, but neither number is any more of a guarantee that it is reflective of opinion. Indeed, at least on this issue the demand is for a vote to check if the people actually do want to do something rather thank blanket claiming for certain that the people want to remain (though I expect a few speakers will say that). But a large march just indicates a lot of people care about something. There is nothing particularly ridiculous is countering that many many many more did not care enough to march. It doesn't invalidate a march, but it is true nonetheless.
And personally I'm annoyed that a second referendum is clearly, for many, just a proxy for wanting to remain. If it is actually about confirming things it would be nice it things were more welcoming of deal supporters or even no dealers who want to extra confirm they are happy to go (though granted the latter are likely a smaller grouping).
I agree with your first para except the last couple of sentences. For CR to say it is 'interesting' that 96% could not be bothered is crass. Most protests only have a very small percentage of those who are very keen attending. A large turnout is a positive indication, although it isn't proof.
I'm involved in a campaign currently that represents the interest of approximately 3000 people. It is important to those 3000 people. Only just under 300 take an active involvement and only about 30 are actually running the show. They are all very supportive though.
Re this march I only know 2 people who are there, but dozens who aren't or can't be for various reasons but who heavily support it and I'm only 25 miles from it. If you are based 100s of miles away it is even a greater commitment and cost to make. Doesn't mean you are not keen.
I have never attended a march in my life (I'm in my 60s). If I could have done I would have done.
Sorry kle4 I have got you saying my words and me saying your word while trying to sort out the overflow of words
So (at least) over 96% of those who voted Remain couldn't be bothered to turn out on this march?
Interesting.
That has to be one of the most ridiculous statements made.
Why is that? The whole commentary about marches are ridiculous - by their nature while they can be big there is no guarantee they are representative of opinion 300k, 500k, 800k, 1million, all would be impressive numbers and worthy of praise, but neither number is any more of a guarantee that it is reflective of opinion. Indeed, at least on this issue the demand is for a vote to check if the people actually do want to do something rather thank blanket claiming for certain that the people want to remain (though I expect a few speakers will say that). But a large march just indicates a lot of people care about something. There is nothing particularly ridiculous is countering that many many many more did not care enough to march. It doesn't invalidate a march, but it is true nonetheless.
And personally I'm annoyed that a second referendum is clearly, for many, just a proxy for wanting to remain. If it is actually about confirming things it would be nice it things were more welcoming of deal supporters or even no dealers who want to extra confirm they are happy to go (though granted the latter are likely a smaller grouping).
I agree with your first para except the last couple of sentences. For CR to say it is 'interesting' that 96% could not be bothered is crass. Most protests only have a very small percentage of those who are very keen attending. A large turnout is a positive indication, although it isn't proof.
I'm involved in a campaign currently that represents the interest of approximately 3000 people. It is important to those 3000 people. Only just under 300 take an active involvement and only about 30 are actually running the show. They are all very supportive though.
Re this march I only know 2 people who are there, but dozens who aren't or can't be for various reasons but who heavily support it and I'm only 25 miles from it. If you are based 100s of miles away it is even a greater commitment and cost to make. Doesn't mean you are not keen.
I have never attended a march in my life (I'm in my 60s). If I could have done I would have done.
Sorry kle4 I have got you saying my words and me saying your word while trying to sort out the overflow of words
In fact I have done to everyone's comments - BIG SORRY!
Just so everyone knows, the Brexit march is the lead story on CNN in the US.
Only kidding, it doesn't even get a mention.
More seriously, the Brexit march demonstrates that the wounds from Brexit will not heal easily.
The arguments we're having with Brussels are not the problem. In time, the UK and the EU will realise that they need to have a productive relationship, because it is both their best interests.
The problems we're having are internal. And part of the problem is that the political class is obsessed with the negotiations. We've perhaps never had a government so lacking in dialog with their own population.
I don't know what the solution is, because there Theresa May is emotionally unable to connect with people, and the negotiations are entering their final leg.
We've become a 'take it from them and give it to me' society.
The failure of the economy to 'life all boats' meant that for some to get richer wealth had to be transferred from others.
To justify this wealth transfer it was easier to demonise those from whom it was being taken.
Its a process which began about 15 years ago - when levels of home ownership started falling being a good indicator of a changing society.
It is an entitlement society where many younger people feel entitled to everything without having to strive or work for it.
My children in their forties do not feel like that so I guess it is those in their thirties and younger.
Perhaps brought about by a culture instilled by teachers and easy exams where no one fails - not sure.
Reading through the comments here today, I realise that *nothing* brings out the self-pitying whining of right wingers more than a mass protest.
In a liberal democracy with freedom of the press that has had a referendum on the issue in hand, a mass protest is the definition of self-pitying whining.
Today’s march will not change anyone’s mind. All it will do is consolidate existing views on both sides.
You'd prefer a liberal democracy with no right to protest?
I don't even know why it is being called a protest - I thought it was about asking for a second vote, which might well confirm the original decision or confirm something even worse - no deal Brexit.
There isn't a majority in parliament for any proposed plan. Even if there was it may get vetoed by the EU or the DUP. The way out for the politicians is to ask the people.
What you mean is ask the people until they give the required response.
What this march shows, like the days of action that we endure in Scotland, is that referendums really don't solve anything. The losers, whether Scot Nats or remainers, remain convinced that they are right, as is their right of course. They do not bring communities together, they drive them apart. They invoke bitterness and inevitably lead to allegations that people "cheated", usually by both sides. Lots of things are said which can damage relationships and make it harder for people to work together in the future. Completely unaccountable campaigns self appoint themselves, usually with a good dob of taxpayers money and make impossible promises and then disappear leaving the politicians to deal with the aftermath.
What I think is noticeably different is the effect of elections in this country. Nearly everyone (some acolytes of Corbyn may be a small exception to this) accepts the result, possibly because they know it is for a maximum of 5 years and then we will get another go.
Having endured both I feel referendumed out. I think we need to accept that as a means of resolving our differences they are a bit of a disaster.
Just so everyone knows, the Brexit march is the lead story on CNN in the US.
Only kidding, it doesn't even get a mention.
More seriously, the Brexit march demonstrates that the wounds from Brexit will not heal easily.
The arguments we're having with Brussels are not the problem. In time, the UK and the EU will realise that they need to have a productive relationship, because it is both their best interests.
The problems we're having are internal. And part of the problem is that the political class is obsessed with the negotiations. We've perhaps never had a government so lacking in dialog with their own population.
I don't know what the solution is, because there Theresa May is emotionally unable to connect with people, and the negotiations are entering their final leg.
We've become a 'take it from them and give it to me' society.
The failure of the economy to 'life all boats' meant that for some to get richer wealth had to be transferred from others.
To justify this wealth transfer it was easier to demonise those from whom it was being taken.
Its a process which began about 15 years ago - when levels of home ownership started falling being a good indicator of a changing society.
It is an entitlement society where many younger people feel entitled to everything without having to strive or work for it.
My children in their forties do not feel like that so I guess it is those in their thirties and younger.
Perhaps brought about by a culture instilled by teachers and easy exams where no one fails - not sure.
That’s breathtaking cheek. The baby boomers sponged first off their parents’ generation and now are sponging off their children, engineering the tax and social security system to benefit themselves at every stage. And now they’ve razed the ground and salted the earth for those that follow by voting for Brexit.
LONDON (Reuters) - Tens of thousands of supporters of the European Union began marching through London on Saturday as part of what organisers say will be the largest ever demonstration to demand that the British government holds a public vote on the terms of Brexit.
If Brexit were going better there wouldn’t be a big turnout for such marches. Leavers could usefully reflect on why Brexit has become such a fiasco.
Because May has poor judgement and the team has handled negotiations appallingly badly from the beginning
As always, it’s never Leavers’ fault.
The seeds of the current debacle were sown in the referendum campaign that Leavers happily fell in behind. Winning with xenophobic lies was the catastrophe. The detail might have been finessed better but the trap was sprung then.
That's all well and good but the fact that TM went for the hardest of brexits and kept boxing herself into corners is as much to blame. (TBH there's more than enough blame to go around).
Had TM said when she became PM said "we are going to support a withdrawal from the EU and going to make it simpler by joining EFTA on a temporary basis with the long term goal of negotiating a UK specific deal" she'd have gotten through this first stage of negotiations much easier as enough Labour MPs would have supported the position to get it through the house of commons and still have claimed to have left the EU.
Leave campaigned on becoming a nation that turned its back on foreigners and giving more money to the NHS. Brexit has to deliver those two things. Unsurprisingly, the first of those has holed the whole enterprise beneath the waterline.
Unsurprisingly you yet again choose to misrepresent the actual situation.
I don't know anyone who wanted to "turn their back on foreigners"
I do know plenty who thought open door immigration was too much.
We are actually one of the most tolerant societies in Europe - another fact you never seem to want to acknowledge.
You also completely ignore those who voted more about losing control of our country to the EU than for other reasons, but again it's harder for you to demonise them.
Just so everyone knows, the Brexit march is the lead story on CNN in the US.
Only kidding, it doesn't even get a mention.
More seriously, the Brexit march demonstrates that the wounds from Brexit will not heal easily.
The arguments we're having with Brussels are not the problem. In time, the UK and the EU will realise that they need to have a productive relationship, because it is both their best interests.
The problems we're having are internal. And part of the problem is that the political class is obsessed with the negotiations. We've perhaps never had a government so lacking in dialog with their own population.
I don't know what the solution is, because there Theresa May is emotionally unable to connect with people, and the negotiations are entering their final leg.
We've become a 'take it from them and give it to me' society.
The failure of the economy to 'life all boats' meant that for some to get richer wealth had to be transferred from others.
To justify this wealth transfer it was easier to demonise those from whom it was being taken.
Its a process which began about 15 years ago - when levels of home ownership started falling being a good indicator of a changing society.
It is an entitlement society where many younger people feel entitled to everything without having to strive or work for it.
My children in their forties do not feel like that so I guess it is those in their thirties and younger.
Perhaps brought about by a culture instilled by teachers and easy exams where no one fails - not sure.
I assure you, your comment about exams is simply wrong. Failure rates are actually pretty high. Since, in any case, only the top grades are counted for most purposes, your comment is actually doubly stupid.
If Brexit were going better there wouldn’t be a big turnout for such marches. Leavers could usefully reflect on why Brexit has become such a fiasco.
Because May has poor judgement and the team has handled negotiations appallingly badly from the beginning
As always, it’s never Leavers’ fault.
The seeds of the current debacle were sown in the referendum campaign that Leavers happily fell in behind. Winning with xenophobic lies was the catastrophe. The detail might have been finessed better but the trap was sprung then.
That's all well and good but the fact that TM went for the hardest of brexits and kept boxing herself into corners is as much to blame. (TBH there's more than enough blame to go around).
Had TM said when she became PM said "we are going to support a withdrawal from the EU and going to make it simpler by joining EFTA on a temporary basis with the long term goal of negotiating a UK specific deal" she'd have gotten through this first stage of negotiations much easier as enough Labour MPs would have supported the position to get it through the house of commons and still have claimed to have left the EU.
Leave campaigned on becoming a nation that turned its back on foreigners and giving more money to the NHS. Brexit has to deliver those two things. Unsurprisingly, the first of those has holed the whole enterprise beneath the waterline.
Unsurprisingly you yet again choose to misrepresent the actual situation.
I don't know anyone who wanted to "turn their back on foreigners"
I do know plenty who thought open door immigration was too much.
We are actually one of the most tolerant societies in Europe - another fact you never seem to want to acknowledge.
You also completely ignore those who voted more about losing control of our country to the EU than for other reasons, but again it's harder for you to demonise them.
The Leave campaign whipped up untrue fears of millions ofTurks descending on Britain. And Leave activists loved it.
On my way back from the March. I don't know how many were there but it was huge.At one point I was in the middle of Piccadilly and it was packed as far as I could see in front and behind.
All sorts of people from all over the country. Really good atmosphere, a bit Last Night of the Proms.
On my way back from the March. I don't know how many were there but it was huge.At one point I was in the middle of Piccadilly and it was packed as far as I could see in front and behind.
All sorts of people from all over the country. Really good atmosphere, a bit Last Night of the Proms.
The last night of the proms will be happening on march 29th.
LONDON (Reuters) - Tens of thousands of supporters of the European Union began marching through London on Saturday as part of what organisers say will be the largest ever demonstration to demand that the British government holds a public vote on the terms of Brexit.
If Brexit were going better there wouldn’t be a big turnout for such marches. Leavers could usefully reflect on why Brexit has become such a fiasco.
Because May has poor judgement and the team has handled negotiations appallingly badly from the beginning
As always, it’s never Leavers’ fault.
The seeds of the current debacle were sown in the referendum campaign that Leavers happily fell in behind. Winning with xenophobic lies was the catastrophe. The detail might have been finessed better but the trap was sprung then.
That's all well and good but the fact that TM went for the hardest of brexits and kept boxing herself into corners is as much to blame. (TBH there's more than enough blame to go around).
Had TM said when she became PM said "we are going to support a withdrawal from the EU and going to make it simpler by joining EFTA on a temporary basis with the long term goal of negotiating a UK specific deal" she'd have gotten through this first stage of negotiations much easier as enough Labour MPs would have supported the position to get it through the house of commons and still have claimed to have left the EU.
Leave campaigned on becoming a nation that turned its back on foreigners and giving more money to the NHS. Brexit has to deliver those two things. Unsurprisingly, the first of those has holed the whole enterprise beneath the waterline.
Unsurprisingly you yet again choose to misrepresent the actual situation.
I don't know anyone who wanted to "turn their back on foreigners"
I do know plenty who thought open door immigration was too much.
We are actually one of the most tolerant societies in Europe - another fact you never seem to want to acknowledge.
You also completely ignore those who voted more about losing control of our country to the EU than for other reasons, but again it's harder for you to demonise them.
The Leave campaign whipped up untrue fears of millions ofTurks descending on Britain. And Leave activists loved it.
Gave a whole new meaning to the expression 'Turkey's voting for Christmas.'
On my way back from the March. I don't know how many were there but it was huge.At one point I was in the middle of Piccadilly and it was packed as far as I could see in front and behind.
All sorts of people from all over the country. Really good atmosphere, a bit Last Night of the Proms.
"A bit Last Night of the Proms" = tedious whingers with EU flags ruining something perfectly nice for the rest of the country?
If Brexit were going better there wouldn’t be a big turnout for such marches. Leavers could usefully reflect on why Brexit has become such a fiasco.
Because May has poor judgement and the team has handled negotiations appallingly badly from the beginning
As always, it’s never Leavers’ fault.
The seeds of the current debacle were sown in the referendum campaign that Leavers happily fell in behind. Winning with xenophobic lies was the catastrophe. The detail might have been finessed better but the trap was sprung then.
That's all well and good but the fact that TM went for the hardest of brexits and kept boxing herself into corners is as much to blame. (TBH there's more than enough blame to go around).
Had TM said when she became PM said "we are going to support a withdrawal from the EU and going to make it simpler by joining EFTA on a temporary basis with the long term goal of negotiating a UK specific deal" she'd have gotten through this first stage of negotiations much easier as enough Labour MPs would have supported the position to get it through the house of commons and still have claimed to have left the EU.
Leave campaigned on becoming a nation that turned its back on foreigners and giving more money to the NHS. Brexit has to deliver those two things. Unsurprisingly, the first of those has holed the whole enterprise beneath the waterline.
Unsurprisingly you yet again choose to misrepresent the actual situation.
I don't know anyone who wanted to "turn their back on foreigners"
I do know plenty who thought open door immigration was too much.
We are actually one of the most tolerant societies in Europe - another fact you never seem to want to acknowledge.
You also completely ignore those who voted more about losing control of our country to the EU than for other reasons, but again it's harder for you to demonise them.
The Leave campaign whipped up untrue fears of millions ofTurks descending on Britain. And Leave activists loved it.
That would be the Turkey that's an ascension country to the EU? The Turkey that was in the process (at the time of the referendum) of getting visa free access to the Schengen area? The Turkey who's only sticking point at the time to entry was its independence of judiciary and its anti terrorism laws.
It's only now following the failed coup and the country going off the deep end that membership is preposterous in even the medium term.
If Brexit were going better there wouldn’t be a big turnout for such marches. Leavers could usefully reflect on why Brexit has become such a fiasco.
Because May has poor judgement and the team has handled negotiations appallingly badly from the beginning
As always, it’s never Leavers’ fault.
The seeds of the current debacle were sown in the referendum campaign that Leavers happily fell in behind. Winning with xenophobic lies was the catastrophe. The detail might have been finessed better but the trap was sprung then.
That's all well and good but the fact that TM went for the hardest of brexits and kept boxing herself into corners is as much to blame. (TBH there's more than enough blame to go around).
Had TM said when she became PM said "we are going to support a withdrawal from the EU and going to make it simpler by joining EFTA on a temporary basis with the long term goal of negotiating a UK specific deal" she'd have gotten through this first stage of negotiations much easier as enough Labour MPs would have supported the position to get it through the house of commons and still have claimed to have left the EU.
On my way back from the March. I don't know how many were there but it was huge.At one point I was in the middle of Piccadilly and it was packed as far as I could see in front and behind.
All sorts of people from all over the country. Really good atmosphere, a bit Last Night of the Proms.
"A bit Last Night of the Proms" = tedious whingers with EU flags ruining something perfectly nice for the rest of the country?
The proms are brilliant. The last night, however, is an abomination.
If Brexit were going better there wouldn’t be a big turnout for such marches. Leavers could usefully reflect on why Brexit has become such a fiasco.
Because May has poor judgement and the team has handled negotiations appallingly badly from the beginning
As always, it’s never Leavers’ fault.
The seeds of the current debacle were sown in the referendum campaign that Leavers happily fell in behind. Winning with xenophobic lies was the catastrophe. The detail might have been finessed better but the trap was sprung then.
That's all well and good but the fact that TM went for the hardest of brexits and kept boxing herself into corners is as much to blame. (TBH there's more than enough blame to go around).
Had TM said when she became PM said "we are going to support a withdrawal from the EU and going to make it simpler by joining EFTA on a temporary basis with the long term goal of negotiating a UK specific deal" she'd have gotten through this first stage of negotiations much easier as enough Labour MPs would have supported the position to get it through the house of commons and still have claimed to have left the EU.
This this this this x 10,000
You were trapped by your xenophobic lies. EFTA even in the short term became impossible because it did not guarantee a route to stopping immigration as the referendum mandated.
If Brexit were going better there wouldn’t be a big turnout for such marches. Leavers could usefully reflect on why Brexit has become such a fiasco.
Because May has poor judgement and the team has handled negotiations appallingly badly from the beginning
As always, it’s never Leavers’ fault.
The seeds of the current debacle were sown in the referendum campaign that Leavers happily fell in behind. Winning with xenophobic lies was the catastrophe. The detail might have been finessed better but the trap was sprung then.
Actually no. I voted leave, and while normally politically active I wanted no part with any of the leave campaigns. They werent campaigning for what i wanted, other than leave.
If Brexit were going better there wouldn’t be a big turnout for such marches. Leavers could usefully reflect on why Brexit has become such a fiasco.
Because May has poor judgement and the team has handled negotiations appallingly badly from the beginning
As always, it’s never Leavers’ fault.
The seeds of the current debacle were sown in the referendum campaign that Leavers happily fell in behind. Winning with xenophobic lies was the catastrophe. The detail might have been finessed better but the trap was sprung then.
That's all well and good but the fact that TM went for the hardest of brexits and kept boxing herself into corners is as much to blame. (TBH there's more than enough blame to go around).
Had TM said when she became PM said "we are going to support a withdrawal from the EU and going to make it simpler by joining EFTA on a temporary basis with the long term goal of negotiating a UK specific deal" she'd have gotten through this first stage of negotiations much easier as enough Labour MPs would have supported the position to get it through the house of commons and still have claimed to have left the EU.
This this this this x 10,000
You were trapped by your xenophobic lies. EFTA even in the short term became impossible because it did not guarantee a route to stopping immigration as the referendum mandated.
My lies? I have consistently argued that we should enter into an agreement that kept us in the single market and that it was up to the government to bring in measures that weakened the pull factors that brought so many migrants to the UK. If you are in the single market you more or less have to accept free movement of labour. Part of the gig.
Just so everyone knows, the Brexit march is the lead story on CNN in the US.
Only kidding, it doesn't even get a mention.
More seriously, the Brexit march demonstrates that the wounds from Brexit will not heal easily.
The arguments we're having with Brussels are not the problem. In time, the UK and the EU will realise that they need to have a productive relationship, because it is both their best interests.
The problems we're having are internal. And part of the problem is that the political class is obsessed with the negotiations. We've perhaps never had a government so lacking in dialog with their own population.
I don't know what the solution is, because there Theresa May is emotionally unable to connect with people, and the negotiations are entering their final leg.
We've become a 'take it from them and give it to me' society.
The failure of the economy to 'life all boats' meant that for some to get richer wealth had to be transferred from others.
To justify this wealth transfer it was easier to demonise those from whom it was being taken.
Its a process which began about 15 years ago - when levels of home ownership started falling being a good indicator of a changing society.
It is an entitlement society where many younger people feel entitled to everything without having to strive or work for it.
My children in their forties do not feel like that so I guess it is those in their thirties and younger.
Perhaps brought about by a culture instilled by teachers and easy exams where no one fails - not sure.
That’s breathtaking cheek. The baby boomers sponged first off their parents’ generation and now are sponging off their children, engineering the tax and social security system to benefit themselves at every stage. And now they’ve razed the ground and salted the earth for those that follow by voting for Brexit.
Could you give some practical details to the apocalyptic hyperbole ?
To give you a start I'll suggest it might be more difficult in the future to go turnip picking in Transylvania.
LONDON (Reuters) - Tens of thousands of supporters of the European Union began marching through London on Saturday as part of what organisers say will be the largest ever demonstration to demand that the British government holds a public vote on the terms of Brexit.
If Brexit were going better there wouldn’t be a big turnout for such marches. Leavers could usefully reflect on why Brexit has become such a fiasco.
Because May has poor judgement and the team has handled negotiations appallingly badly from the beginning
As always, it’s never Leavers’ fault.
The seeds of the current debacle were sown in the referendum campaign that Leavers happily fell in behind. Winning with xenophobic lies was the catastrophe. The detail might have been finessed better but the trap was sprung then.
That's all well and good but the fact that TM went for the hardest of brexits and kept boxing herself into corners is as much to blame. (TBH there's more than enough blame to go around).
Had TM said when she became PM said "we are going to support a withdrawal from the EU and going to make it simpler by joining EFTA on a temporary basis with the long term goal of negotiating a UK specific deal" she'd have gotten through this first stage of negotiations much easier as enough Labour MPs would have supported the position to get it through the house of commons and still have claimed to have left the EU.
This this this this x 10,000
For the record, that's what I advocated before the referendum. (Specifically, I suggested a five year time limited EEA arrangement.)
Just so everyone knows, the Brexit march is the lead story on CNN in the US.
Only kidding, it doesn't even get a mention.
More seriously, the Brexit march demonstrates that the wounds from Brexit will not heal easily.
The arguments we're having with Brussels are not the problem. In time, the UK and the EU will realise that they need to have a productive relationship, because it is both their best interests.
The problems we're having are internal. And part of the problem is that the political class is obsessed with the negotiations. We've perhaps never had a government so lacking in dialog with their own population.
I don't know what the solution is, because there Theresa May is emotionally unable to connect with people, and the negotiations are entering their final leg.
We've become a 'take it from them and give it to me' society.
The failure of the economy to 'life all boats' meant that for some to get richer wealth had to be transferred from others.
To justify this wealth transfer it was easier to demonise those from whom it was being taken.
Its a process which began about 15 years ago - when levels of home ownership started falling being a good indicator of a changing society.
It is an entitlement society where many younger people feel entitled to everything without having to strive or work for it.
My children in their forties do not feel like that so I guess it is those in their thirties and younger.
Perhaps brought about by a culture instilled by teachers and easy exams where no one fails - not sure.
That’s breathtaking cheek. The baby boomers sponged first off their parents’ generation and now are sponging off their children, engineering the tax and social security system to benefit themselves at every stage. And now they’ve razed the ground and salted the earth for those that follow by voting for Brexit.
Could you give some practical details to the apocalyptic hyperbole ?
To give you a start I'll suggest it might be more difficult in the future to go turnip picking in Transylvania.
Which is going to be a major blow to our sweet transvestite community, let me tell you.
Just so everyone knows, the Brexit march is the lead story on CNN in the US.
Only kidding, it doesn't even get a mention.
More seriously, the Brexit march demonstrates that the wounds from Brexit will not heal easily.
The arguments we're having with Brussels are not the problem. In time, the UK and the EU will realise that they need to have a productive relationship, because it is both their best interests.
The problems we're having are internal. And part of the problem is that the political class is obsessed with the negotiations. We've perhaps never had a government so lacking in dialog with their own population.
I don't know what the solution is, because there Theresa May is emotionally unable to connect with people, and the negotiations are entering their final leg.
We've become a 'take it from them and give it to me' society.
The failure of the economy to 'life all boats' meant that for some to get richer wealth had to be transferred from others.
To justify this wealth transfer it was easier to demonise those from whom it was being taken.
Its a process which began about 15 years ago - when levels of home ownership started falling being a good indicator of a changing society.
It is an entitlement society where many younger people feel entitled to everything without having to strive or work for it.
My children in their forties do not feel like that so I guess it is those in their thirties and younger.
Perhaps brought about by a culture instilled by teachers and easy exams where no one fails - not sure.
That’s breathtaking cheek. The baby boomers sponged first off their parents’ generation and now are sponging off their children, engineering the tax and social security system to benefit themselves at every stage. And now they’ve razed the ground and salted the earth for those that follow by voting for Brexit.
Would you like to give some examples of baby boomers sponging off their parents?
FWIW, I think it's your generation that's had it all. Ten years of rock bottom interest rates and QE to keep your property prices higher than your mortgages.
If Brexit were going better there wouldn’t be a big turnout for such marches. Leavers could usefully reflect on why Brexit has become such a fiasco.
Because May has poor judgement and the team has handled negotiations appallingly badly from the beginning
As always, it’s never Leavers’ fault.
The seeds of the current debacle were sown in the referendum campaign that Leavers happily fell in behind. Winning with xenophobic lies was the catastrophe. The detail might have been finessed better but the trap was sprung then.
That's all well and good but the fact that TM went for the hardest of brexits and kept boxing herself into corners is as much to blame. (TBH there's more than enough blame to go around).
Had TM said when she became PM said "we are going to support a withdrawal from the EU and going to make it simpler by joining EFTA on a temporary basis with the long term goal of negotiating a UK specific deal" she'd have gotten through this first stage of negotiations much easier as enough Labour MPs would have supported the position to get it through the house of commons and still have claimed to have left the EU.
This this this this x 10,000
For the record, that's what I advocated before the referendum. (Specifically, I suggested a five year time limited EEA arrangement.)
I was dumbfounded at her from the beginning with her red lines. What type of Tory wants to be out of the Single Market? What type of Tory with a proper socialist leader of the Labour party breathing down the neck wants to leave a trading block that guarantees as long as we are members, that no one in can carry out the old ruinous state socialism of the past.
So many fundamental errors, and it looks like what could have been negotiated for and presented as a triumph will be forced upon her as an act of weakness.
If Brexit were going better there wouldn’t be a big turnout for such marches. Leavers could usefully reflect on why Brexit has become such a fiasco.
Because May has poor judgement and the team has handled negotiations appallingly badly from the beginning
As always, it’s never Leavers’ fault.
The seeds of the current debacle were sown in the referendum campaign that Leavers happily fell in behind. Winning with xenophobic lies was the catastrophe. The detail might have been finessed better but the trap was sprung then.
That's all well and good but the fact that TM went for the hardest of brexits and kept boxing herself into corners is as much to blame. (TBH there's more than enough blame to go around).
Had TM said when she became PM said "we are going to support a withdrawal from the EU and going to make it simpler by joining EFTA on a temporary basis with the long term goal of negotiating a UK specific deal" she'd have gotten through this first stage of negotiations much easier as enough Labour MPs would have supported the position to get it through the house of commons and still have claimed to have left the EU.
This this this this x 10,000
For the record, that's what I advocated before the referendum. (Specifically, I suggested a five year time limited EEA arrangement.)
I was dumbfounded at her from the beginning with her red lines. What type of Tory wants to be out of the Single Market? What type of Tory with a proper socialist leader of the Labour party breathing down the neck wants to leave a trading block that guarantees as long as we are members, that no one in can carry out the old ruinous state socialism of the past.
So many fundamental errors, and it looks like what could have been negotiated for and presented as a triumph will be forced upon her as an act of weakness.
"What type of Tory wants to be out of the Single Market?"
One who doesn't believe in freedom of movement or large-scale migration. i.e. a May type of Tory.
I was never quite sure why she was actually a Remainer given her views on migration.
If Brexit were going better there wouldn’t be a big turnout for such marches. Leavers could usefully reflect on why Brexit has become such a fiasco.
Because May has poor judgement and the team has handled negotiations appallingly badly from the beginning
As always, it’s never Leavers’ fault.
The seeds of the current debacle were sown in the referendum campaign that Leavers happily fell in behind. Winning with xenophobic lies was the catastrophe. The detail might have been finessed better but the trap was sprung then.
Actually no. I voted leave, and while normally politically active I wanted no part with any of the leave campaigns. They werent campaigning for what i wanted, other than leave.
I share your opinion. I've been on the eurosceptic side for a long time and mentioned that often enough over the years I've been posting here. When the campaign started, I was pretty certain I'd vote Leave.
The campaign made me long for a result where both sides managed to lose, but in a binary choice, that's impossible. Eventually, and to my own surprise, I ended up voting Remain. I found the Remain campaign less repugnant than the Leave one; the Turkey poster and the immigrants one tipped me over the edge to deciding I simply couldn't line up next to them.
If Brexit were going better there wouldn’t be a big turnout for such marches. Leavers could usefully reflect on why Brexit has become such a fiasco.
Because May has poor judgement and the team has handled negotiations appallingly badly from the beginning
As always, it’s never Leavers’ fault.
The seeds of the current debacle were sown in the referendum campaign that Leavers happily fell in behind. Winning with xenophobic lies was the catastrophe. The detail might have been finessed better but the trap was sprung then.
That's all well and good but the fact that TM went for the hardest of brexits and kept boxing herself into corners is as much to blame. (TBH there's more than enough blame to go around).
Had TM said when she became PM said "we are going to support a withdrawal from the EU and going to make it simpler by joining EFTA on a temporary basis with the long term goal of negotiating a UK specific deal" she'd have gotten through this first stage of negotiations much easier as enough Labour MPs would have supported the position to get it through the house of commons and still have claimed to have left the EU.
This this this this x 10,000
For the record, that's what I advocated before the referendum. (Specifically, I suggested a five year time limited EEA arrangement.)
I was dumbfounded at her from the beginning with her red lines. What type of Tory wants to be out of the Single Market? What type of Tory with a proper socialist leader of the Labour party breathing down the neck wants to leave a trading block that guarantees as long as we are members, that no one in can carry out the old ruinous state socialism of the past.
So many fundamental errors, and it looks like what could have been negotiated for and presented as a triumph will be forced upon her as an act of weakness.
Michael Gove, Dan Hannan, Boris Johnson, David Davis, Dominic Raab, John Redwood are just some of the Tories that campaigned to vote to leave the single market.
I see we are now wibbling about whether whether the rally has attracted over half a million or not. .
I see a lot more people querying whether the actual size matters or not than those wibbling about the size. The script for this day was written months ago.
Every time there is a rally on anything - left or right - people whine that rallies don’t count.
It’s incredibly tedious.
The point is is that upwards of half a million feel passionately enough about the clusterfuck that is Brexit to get of their arse and protest about it.
Agreed. The number is clearly impressive, and way more than I expected. It may concentrate a few minds in Westminster.
On the other hand, I am struggling to remember a march in Britain that changed anything. A million and a half marched against the Iraq war, and it did nothing. 400,000 turned up for foxhunting - zip.
Can any PB-er recall a march, in Britain, that changed things significantly? The only possibility I can think of is Jarrow, which changed attitudes over time
Protests often work slowly. Blair would have been remembered differently if he had listened to the marchers, and perhaps listening to the countryside marchers would have dealt with some grievances that festered into Brexitism. May ought to similarly listen.
Mr. Cooke, it was cunning up until the point he was deposed and ended up dead.
He was mostly a very talented manipulator and devious plotter, but when you piss everyone off, if they have a chance to unite against you they'll take it.
Just so everyone knows, the Brexit march is the lead story on CNN in the US.
Only kidding, it doesn't even get a mention.
We've become a 'take it from them and give it to me' society.
The failure of the economy to 'life all boats' meant that for some to get richer wealth had to be transferred from others.
To justify this wealth transfer it was easier to demonise those from whom it was being taken.
Its a process which began about 15 years ago - when levels of home ownership started falling being a good indicator of a changing society.
It is an entitlement society where many younger people feel entitled to everything without having to strive or work for it.
My children in their forties do not feel like that so I guess it is those in their thirties and younger.
Perhaps brought about by a culture instilled by teachers and easy exams where no one fails - not sure.
Of course some people in every generation are entitled - but I think it's disingenuous to say that the problems that young people face nowadays are due to some kind of moral failing.
When he was 22, my grandfather was able to get a job in an aircraft factory immediately after leaving university (which was free) paying the inflation adjusted equivalent of about £35,000. He was then able to rent a house in a nice part of the country for about 1/6th of his monthly wage. He was able to save up enough for a mortgage on a semi-detached house at about 3x annual wage.
I'm 22 now and I've just got a job in London after putting in three years of unpaid voluntary work to build the experience I needed to qualify. I'm earning £22,500, but I'm paying almost 1/2 of that after taxes on rent, and even if I were to get a significant pay increase, I'd need to start covering my tuition fees (I'm one of the lucky ones who don't have to start repaying at 21k). Even if I were able to put aside money for a mortgage, I'd be looking at at something around 10x my annual wage.
There are obviously severe structural problems in our economy. No matter how unentitled I am, I'm not going to be able to afford a semi detached house anytime soon. I want to settle down and get on with life - but right now I don't see how I can.
I see we are now wibbling about whether whether the rally has attracted over half a million or not. .
I see a lot more people querying whether the actual size matters or not than those wibbling about the size. The script for this day was written months ago.
Every time there is a rally on anything - left or right - people whine that rallies don’t count.
It’s incredibly tedious.
The point is is that upwards of half a million feel passionately enough about the clusterfuck that is Brexit to get of their arse and protest about it.
Snip
Can any PB-er recall a march, in Britain, that changed things significantly? The only possibility I can think of is Jarrow, which changed attitudes over time
Well the countryside march may have emboldened the Tories to include the return of foxhunting in their last manifesto. I have a feeling this cost them a lot of votes of younger people who voted for them in 2015. If so, maybe it cost them their majority which in turn looks like it might stop Brexit from happening.
Welcome @Bournville - a very good first post. May I ask, are you tied to London for any particular reason? I work in London because I'm able to commute from my parents' house, but if I wasn't from the South East, I'd have nothing to do with the place.
Just so everyone knows, the Brexit march is the lead story on CNN in the US.
Only kidding, it doesn't even get a mention.
We've become a 'take it from them and give it to me' society.
The failure of the economy to 'life all boats' meant that for some to get richer wealth had to be transferred from others.
To justify this wealth transfer it was easier to demonise those from whom it was being taken.
Its a process which began about 15 years ago - when levels of home ownership started falling being a good indicator of a changing society.
It is an entitlement society where many younger people feel entitled to everything without having to strive or work for it.
My children in their forties do not feel like that so I guess it is those in their thirties and younger.
Perhaps brought about by a culture instilled by teachers and easy exams where no one fails - not sure.
Of course some people in every generation are entitled - but I think it's disingenuous to say that the problems that young people face nowadays are due to some kind of moral failing.
When he was 22, my grandfather was able to get a job in an aircraft factory immediately after leaving university (which was free) paying the inflation adjusted equivalent of about £35,000. He was then able to rent a house in a nice part of the country for about 1/6th of his monthly wage. He was able to save up enough for a mortgage on a semi-detached house at about 3x annual wage.
I'm 22 now and I've just got a job in London after putting in three years of unpaid voluntary work to build the experience I needed to qualify. I'm earning £22,500, but I'm paying almost 1/2 of that after taxes on rent, and even if I were to get a significant pay increase, I'd need to start covering my tuition fees (I'm one of the lucky ones who don't have to start repaying at 21k). Even if I were able to put aside money for a mortgage, I'd be looking at at something around 10x my annual wage.
There are obviously severe structural problems in our economy. No matter how unentitled I am, I'm not going to be able to afford a semi detached house anytime soon. I want to settle down and get on with life - but right now I don't see how I can.
When I lived in London 88, first job after Uni, I was earning 18K so taking home about 1,000 a month. Rent was 375 a month, so 37.5% of take home. I can not remember the house prices but it was the time when you had no chance of buying a house because of the house price boom at the time, even then people we buying as friends to spread the mortage. I bought my first house aged 31. Seems to me, that not much has changed.
Just so everyone knows, the Brexit march is the lead story on CNN in the US.
Only kidding, it doesn't even get a mention.
We've become a 'take it from them and give it to me' society.
The failure of the economy to 'life all boats' meant that for some to get richer wealth had to be transferred from others.
To justify this wealth transfer it was easier to demonise those from whom it was being taken.
Its a process which began about 15 years ago - when levels of home ownership started falling being a good indicator of a changing society.
It is an entitlement society where many younger people feel entitled to everything without having to strive or work for it.
My children in their forties do not feel like that so I guess it is those in their thirties and younger.
Perhaps brought about by a culture instilled by teachers and easy exams where no one fails - not sure.
Of course some people in every generation are entitled - but I think it's disingenuous to say that the problems that young people face nowadays are due to some kind of moral failing.
When he was 22, my grandfather was able to get a job in an aircraft factory immediately after leaving university (which was free) paying the inflation adjusted equivalent of about £35,000. He was then able to rent a house in a nice part of the country for about 1/6th of his monthly wage. He was able to save up enough for a mortgage on a semi-detached house at about 3x annual wage.
I'm 22 now and I've just got a job in London after putting in three years of unpaid voluntary work to build the experience I needed to qualify. I'm earning £22,500, but I'm paying almost 1/2 of that after taxes on rent, and even if I were to get a significant pay increase, I'd need to start covering my tuition fees (I'm one of the lucky ones who don't have to start repaying at 21k). Even if I were able to put aside money for a mortgage, I'd be looking at at something around 10x my annual wage.
There are obviously severe structural problems in our economy. No matter how unentitled I am, I'm not going to be able to afford a semi detached house anytime soon. I want to settle down and get on with life - but right now I don't see how I can.
Welcome to PB Bournville
My grandparents bought a house in Morden, south London in 1960 for £5000, it's now worth over half a million, my Grandfather was a milkman and my Grandmother a part time school dinner lady.
Are people with those sort of jobs ever going to be able to buy a family home again?
I see we are now wibbling about whether whether the rally has attracted over half a million or not. .
I see a lot more people querying whether the actual size matters or not than those wibbling about the size. The script for this day was written months ago.
Every time there is a rally on anything - left or right - people whine that rallies don’t count.
It’s incredibly tedious.
The point is is that upwards of half a million feel passionately enough about the clusterfuck that is Brexit to get of their arse and protest about it.
Agreed. The number is clearly impressive, and way more than I expected. It may concentrate a few minds in Westminster.
On the other hand, I am struggling to remember a march in Britain that changed anything. A million and a half marched against the Iraq war, and it did nothing. 400,000 turned up for foxhunting - zip.
Can any PB-er recall a march, in Britain, that changed things significantly? The only possibility I can think of is Jarrow, which changed attitudes over time
It wasn't a march per se, but AFAICR the petrol protests in 2000 significantly altered the polling and caused Blair's government some serious concern. But then the protests, and the concerns, melted away.
I see we are now wibbling about whether whether the rally has attracted over half a million or not. .
I see a lot more people querying whether the actual size matters or not than those wibbling about the size. The script for this day was written months ago.
Every time there is a rally on anything - left or right - people whine that rallies don’t count.
It’s incredibly tedious.
The point is is that upwards of half a million feel passionately enough about the clusterfuck that is Brexit to get of their arse and protest about it.
Snip
Can any PB-er recall a march, in Britain, that changed things significantly? The only possibility I can think of is Jarrow, which changed attitudes over time
Well the countryside march may have emboldened the Tories to include the return of foxhunting in their last manifesto. I have a feeling this cost them a lot of votes of younger people who voted for them in 2015. If so, maybe it cost them their majority which in turn looks like it might stop Brexit from happening.
Hah. That's clever. Not sure it's true. But clever.
The fox nonsense cost them my daughter's vote. She was appalled.
Just so everyone knows, the Brexit march is the lead story on CNN in the US.
Only kidding, it doesn't even get a mention.
We've become a 'take it from them and give it to me' society.
The failure of the economy to 'life all boats' meant that for some to get richer wealth had to be transferred from others.
To justify this wealth transfer it was easier to demonise those from whom it was being taken.
Its a process which began about 15 years ago - when levels of home ownership started falling being a good indicator of a changing society.
It is an entitlement society where many younger people feel entitled to everything without having to strive or work for it.
My children in their forties do not feel like that so I guess it is those in their thirties and younger.
Perhaps brought about by a culture instilled by teachers and easy exams where no one fails - not sure.
Of course some people in every generation are entitled - but I think it's disingenuous to say that the problems that young people face nowadays are due to some kind of moral failing.
When he was 22, my grandfather was able to get a job in an aircraft factory immediately after leaving university (which was free) paying the inflation adjusted equivalent of about £35,000. He was then able to rent a house in a nice part of the country for about 1/6th of his monthly wage. He was able to save up enough for a mortgage on a semi-detached house at about 3x annual wage.
I'm 22 now and I've just got a job in London after putting in three years of unpaid voluntary work to build the experience I needed to qualify. I'm earning £22,500, but I'm paying almost 1/2 of that after taxes on rent, and even if I were to get a significant pay increase, I'd need to start covering my tuition fees (I'm one of the lucky ones who don't have to start repaying at 21k). Even if I were able to put aside money for a mortgage, I'd be looking at at something around 10x my annual wage.
There are obviously severe structural problems in our economy. No matter how unentitled I am, I'm not going to be able to afford a semi detached house anytime soon. I want to settle down and get on with life - but right now I don't see how I can.
Welcome to PB Bournville
My grandparents bought a house in Morden, south London in 1960 for £5000, it's now worth over half a million, my Grandfather was a milkman and my Grandmother a part time school dinner lady.
Are people with those sort of jobs ever going to be able to buy a family home again?
Certainly not in London and certainly not in their 20s.
It wasn't a march per se, but AFAICR the petrol protests in 2000 significantly altered the polling and caused Blair's government some serious concern. But then the protests, and the concerns, melted away.
But that was a very different situation.
it did change the policy of the government though. IIRC they stopped increasing fuel duty for a number of years. At that time though the only thing that interested Blair was ensuring that they won the 2001 election so any bad news was dealt with quickly and decisively. Didn't make for good government though
Comments
It's a matter of numbers as to whether things get labelled a success.
Marchers dispersing to the pubs now, but still some haven't reached Parliament square
I reported the headline on BBC Radio - which doesn’t have pictures by the way - was “thousands”
I then said that I interpreted that headline as less than 20,000.
I would still interpret the headline “thousands” in the same way, exurb though it is clearly misleading
At no point did I speculate what the numbers were and nor do I care
Double down on the 'Foreign Enemy' ploy?
Putin has worked well, so maybe...
Invade Ireland.
Pro: 'solves the Backstop.
Had TM said when she became PM said "we are going to support a withdrawal from the EU and going to make it simpler by joining EFTA on a temporary basis with the long term goal of negotiating a UK specific deal" she'd have gotten through this first stage of negotiations much easier as enough Labour MPs would have supported the position to get it through the house of commons and still have claimed to have left the EU.
Only kidding, it doesn't even get a mention.
More seriously, the Brexit march demonstrates that the wounds from Brexit will not heal easily.
The arguments we're having with Brussels are not the problem. In time, the UK and the EU will realise that they need to have a productive relationship, because it is both their best interests.
The problems we're having are internal. And part of the problem is that the political class is obsessed with the negotiations. We've perhaps never had a government so lacking in dialog with their own population.
I don't know what the solution is, because there Theresa May is emotionally unable to connect with people, and the negotiations are entering their final leg.
But she started with something mushy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXhShkj2A9c
The way out for the politicians is to ask the people.
The failure of the economy to 'life all boats' meant that for some to get richer wealth had to be transferred from others.
To justify this wealth transfer it was easier to demonise those from whom it was being taken.
Its a process which began about 15 years ago - when levels of home ownership started falling being a good indicator of a changing society.
It is an entitlement society where many younger people feel entitled to everything without having to strive or work for it.
My children in their forties do not feel like that so I guess it is those in their thirties and younger.
Perhaps brought about by a culture instilled by teachers and easy exams where no one fails - not sure.
https://twitter.com/MarkDiStef/status/1053625502664138752?s=20
We did ask the people and they have spoken.
https://twitter.com/SamWhyte/status/1053660940867125248
What I think is noticeably different is the effect of elections in this country. Nearly everyone (some acolytes of Corbyn may be a small exception to this) accepts the result, possibly because they know it is for a maximum of 5 years and then we will get another go.
Having endured both I feel referendumed out. I think we need to accept that as a means of resolving our differences they are a bit of a disaster.
LONDON (Reuters) - Tens of thousands of supporters of the European Union began marching through London on Saturday as part of what organisers say will be the largest ever demonstration to demand that the British government holds a public vote on the terms of Brexit.
https://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUKKCN1MU0JJ?__twitter_impression=true
I don't know anyone who wanted to "turn their back on foreigners"
I do know plenty who thought open door immigration was too much.
We are actually one of the most tolerant societies in Europe - another fact you never seem to want to acknowledge.
You also completely ignore those who voted more about losing control of our country to the EU than for other reasons, but again it's harder for you to demonise them.
Reuter’s just reported “tens of thousands”.
https://twitter.com/bbcnews/status/1053664662787637249?s=21
All sorts of people from all over the country. Really good atmosphere, a bit Last Night of the Proms.
One imagines there were fewer EU flags on the march.
It's only now following the failed coup and the country going off the deep end that membership is preposterous in even the medium term.
To give you a start I'll suggest it might be more difficult in the future to go turnip picking in Transylvania.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45925542
FWIW, I think it's your generation that's had it all. Ten years of rock bottom interest rates and QE to keep your property prices higher than your mortgages.
https://twitter.com/RBReich/status/1053351835182997504
So many fundamental errors, and it looks like what could have been negotiated for and presented as a triumph will be forced upon her as an act of weakness.
There are five people, but they are moving around an awful lot and doing it very very very very quickly.
From this thread, I've also learned two new meanings:
"Bollocks" now means "I don't want to believe that"
and
"Traitor" means "You disagree with me"
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1053662098574716929
One who doesn't believe in freedom of movement or large-scale migration. i.e. a May type of Tory.
I was never quite sure why she was actually a Remainer given her views on migration.
I've been on the eurosceptic side for a long time and mentioned that often enough over the years I've been posting here. When the campaign started, I was pretty certain I'd vote Leave.
The campaign made me long for a result where both sides managed to lose, but in a binary choice, that's impossible. Eventually, and to my own surprise, I ended up voting Remain. I found the Remain campaign less repugnant than the Leave one; the Turkey poster and the immigrants one tipped me over the edge to deciding I simply couldn't line up next to them.
It had earlier been rewritten by Edward III in light of his precarious childhood, during the rule of Roger Mortimer.
I may be being unduly suspicious, though, I do admit.
She's just honouring their campaign promises.
He was mostly a very talented manipulator and devious plotter, but when you piss everyone off, if they have a chance to unite against you they'll take it.
When he was 22, my grandfather was able to get a job in an aircraft factory immediately after leaving university (which was free) paying the inflation adjusted equivalent of about £35,000. He was then able to rent a house in a nice part of the country for about 1/6th of his monthly wage. He was able to save up enough for a mortgage on a semi-detached house at about 3x annual wage.
I'm 22 now and I've just got a job in London after putting in three years of unpaid voluntary work to build the experience I needed to qualify. I'm earning £22,500, but I'm paying almost 1/2 of that after taxes on rent, and even if I were to get a significant pay increase, I'd need to start covering my tuition fees (I'm one of the lucky ones who don't have to start repaying at 21k). Even if I were able to put aside money for a mortgage, I'd be looking at at something around 10x my annual wage.
There are obviously severe structural problems in our economy. No matter how unentitled I am, I'm not going to be able to afford a semi detached house anytime soon. I want to settle down and get on with life - but right now I don't see how I can.
Indeed, intergenerational problems are difficult, and will be a problem in politics for a long time.
The elderly face increasing years of frailty/dementia, and those between young and old will struggle to try and help both.
I bought my first house aged 31.
Seems to me, that not much has changed.
My grandparents bought a house in Morden, south London in 1960 for £5000, it's now worth over half a million, my Grandfather was a milkman and my Grandmother a part time school dinner lady.
Are people with those sort of jobs ever going to be able to buy a family home again?
But that was a very different situation.
You're quite right.
Make that at least ten.