Most interesting to hear impartial witnesses saying that Assad has the support of about 70% of his country. Not something we hear very often from our rather skewed media. From working many times in Beirut with Syrians not something I find surprising. The older Assad was feared but that was never the case with his son.
The thing about that story (no1) is that it doesn't ring true. The one thing we know about human behaviour is that no one does anything without a reason. The reason might not be valid but there has to be a reason. Why would the Syrian government pick up an arbitrary woman jail her and get five soldiers to rape her in every orifice. There must be a reason yet none is offered.
The government may well have called that anti semitism debate to focus the spotlight on Labour’s issues, but their own massive mess up re the Windrush generation means that will continue to be the focus of the headlines. Also makes it harder for them to present themselves as morally superior to Labour now. Both parties are in a total mess.
Frankly I'm not concerned with anyone coming out with moral superiority, I just want the furore to lead to positive effect. I cannot say I'm optimistic on the anti-semitism front, since we already had this issue come up before and apparently things have only gotten worse, and despite the recent outrages apparently no one really cares that much. So I hope the Windrush situation at least can be fixed/rolled back as needed, but as it derives from a policy implementation will be harder.
You may not be, but plenty of people I know are. Tbh I’m not optimistic re Labour really tackling anti semitism either. I was hopeful after Momentum’s statement earlier on, but now after hearing stories about Lansman et al I don’t see that there’s a will to take action.
There was briefly a moment when there was that will, but it was ruined with that laughable "Corbyn is antisemitic because he had dinner with the wrong kind of Jews" story.
Overnight, I saw a lot of Labour members' Twitter feeds switch from "shit, maybe there really is an issue here" to "God, this just shows it's a right-wing media campaign who just want to get at Corbyn".
Ye, it's been overplayed to my mind. The Jewdas Seder was when it started to look like drivel
The problem was there were claims they had said things which would suggest Corbyn was not taking the anti-semitism claims seriously, which would be a valid concern if proven, but Guido for instance was seemingly more concerned with them being a bunch of extreme leftists shouting about capitalism, which whether one supports that stance or not, is not really relevant.
Paul Staines enjoys getting scalps, but best to take his website with large dollops of salt.
Dianne Abbott being shouted down - labour mps need to walk out now
What did she say , that needed shouted down ?
Just failed to address the fears of her fellow mps and waffled incompetently
Hardly new big g , for a clever lady , she has been incoherent for a while.However she does not deserve to be shouted down , in a democratic chamber, or the abuse she gets on the internet.
She had no empathy for the anger from her own mps who had bared all, often in tears.
But the real story is that Corbyn disdained from making the response, just sitting by Abbott and letting her take the flak. We can add cowardice to the many other negative descriptions of him
Dianne Abbott being shouted down - labour mps need to walk out now
What did she say , that needed shouted down ?
Just failed to address the fears of her fellow mps and waffled incompetently
Hardly new big g , for a clever lady , she has been incoherent for a while.However she does not deserve to be shouted down , in a democratic chamber, or the abuse she gets on the internet.
No she doesn't deserve the abuse she gets on the internet - in terms of the chamber, well, barracking is a part of the nature of debates in the House, and it is the job of the Speaker to ensure she is still able to get her points across and stop people overdoing it.
There is so much criticism she deservedly earns, that the racial and sexist stuff she gets hit with just undermines the legitimate criticism, as well as being personally terrible.
I agree , however if big g is correct or maybe not worded correctly .Shouting down , sounds worse that the usual barracking.Nevertheless not a good look for any parliamentarian not to listen but to drown out what the person is trying to say.
' The ZEW Indicator of Economic Sentiment for Germany once again experienced a sharp decline in April 2018, dropping by 13.3 points compared to March and even 26.0 points compared to February. The indicator currently stands at minus 8.2 points, falling far below the long-term average of 23.5 points. '
The government may well have called that anti semitism debate to focus the spotlight on Labour’s issues, but their own massive mess up re the Windrush generation means that will continue to be the focus of the headlines. Also makes it harder for them to present themselves as morally superior to Labour now. Both parties are in a total mess.
Frankly I'm not concerned with anyone coming out with moral superiority, I just want the furore to lead to positive effect. I cannot say I'm optimistic on the anti-semitism front, since we already had this issue come up before and apparently things have only gotten worse, and despite the recent outrages apparently no one really cares that much. So I hope the Windrush situation at least can be fixed/rolled back as needed, but as it derives from a policy implementation will be harder.
You may not be, but plenty of people I know are. Tbh I’m not optimistic re Labour really tackling anti semitism either. I was hopeful after Momentum’s statement earlier on, but now after hearing stories about Lansman et al I don’t see that there’s a will to take action.
There was briefly a moment when there was that will, but it was ruined with that laughable "Corbyn is antisemitic because he had dinner with the wrong kind of Jews" story.
Overnight, I saw a lot of Labour members' Twitter feeds switch from "shit, maybe there really is an issue here" to "God, this just shows it's a right-wing media campaign who just want to get at Corbyn".
Ye, it's been overplayed to my mind. The Jewdas Seder was when it started to look like drivel
The problem was there were claims they had said things which would suggest Corbyn was not taking the anti-semitism claims seriously, which would be a valid concern if proven, but Guido for instance was seemingly more concerned with them being a bunch of extreme leftists shouting about capitalism, which whether one supports that stance or not, is not really relevant.
Paul Staines enjoys getting scalps, but best to take his website with large dollops of salt.
Oh yes indeed - he has a partisan message to push (though departs from it if there is chance of a scalp, to some degree), and cannot be counted as entirely reliable as a result, but the point was there were concerns that were raised that, if proven, would be legitimate. But he cared more about the lefty stuff on that occasion, which immediately led to a reaction against it.
The government may well have called that anti semitism debate to focus the spotlight on Labour’s issues, but their own massive mess up re the Windrush generation means that will continue to be the focus of the headlines. Also makes it harder for them to present themselves as morally superior to Labour now. Both parties are in a total mess.
Frankly I'm not concerned with anyone coming out with moral superiority, I just want the furore to lead to positive effect. I cannot say I'm optimistic on the anti-semitism front, since we already had this issue come up before and apparently things have only gotten worse, and despite the recent outrages apparently no one really cares that much. So I hope the Windrush situation at least can be fixed/rolled back as needed, but as it derives from a policy implementation will be harder.
You may not be, but plenty of people I know are. Tbh I’m not optimistic re Labour really tackling anti semitism either. I was hopeful after Momentum’s statement earlier on, but now after hearing stories about Lansman et al I don’t see that there’s a will to take action.
There was briefly a moment when there was that will, but it was ruined with that laughable "Corbyn is antisemitic because he had dinner with the wrong kind of Jews" story.
Overnight, I saw a lot of Labour members' Twitter feeds switch from "shit, maybe there really is an issue here" to "God, this just shows it's a right-wing media campaign who just want to get at Corbyn".
Woodcock is an Anti Semite for his "Corbyn is antisemitic because he had dinner with the wrong kind of Jews" story.
Expel him now Jezza
I thought you were rooting out Anti Semites.
Angela Smith too said something derogatory about Jewish Socialist groups in general surely she has to go.
Those Labour MPs shouting down Dianne Abbott now are hypocrites and are using vile abuse. ( I am not actually watching but am sure its correct).
Am i getting the hang of this??
Criticising the Jewdas seder was a good litmus test for who was genuinely concerned about antisemitism, and who was disingenuously just using it as a stick to bash Corbyn with.
Luciana Berger for example did not (as far as I'm aware) say Corbyn should've met "mainstream Jews" rather than "bad Jews", because I trust that she actually is concerned about the issue itself, not least because of some of the vile abuse she herself has suffered.
On the other hand, Woodcock and a couple of others showed their real motives.
Dianne Abbott being shouted down - labour mps need to walk out now
What did she say , that needed shouted down ?
Just failed to address the fears of her fellow mps and waffled incompetently
Hardly new big g , for a clever lady , she has been incoherent for a while.However she does not deserve to be shouted down , in a democratic chamber, or the abuse she gets on the internet.
Unfortunately she is Labours representative on QT this week in flipping Chesterfield
Cant see that ending well from a Labour point of view
Mr. Owls, what do you make of John Mann saying his wife has been threatened with rape by far left activists, in revenge for him speaking out about anti-semitism?
Whoever said it should be arrested. Surely it was reported to the Police.
If they are a Labour Party Member they should be expelled.
Racism, such as antisemitism, is a poison. If you do not treat it early, it hurts and damages. For some reason, the Labour party has chosen to allow it to infect and fester.
Your attitude, as shown on a few posts ago, is telling. Dumb, dumb, dumb.
If the allegations made by the MPs have been reported to the Police.
They should be investigated and Arrests made
Any Labour party members involved in abuse should be expelled
As i just said
Are you deaf or just the dumber to my dumb
I'll leave it up to others to decide how dumb I am. What I will say is that you and Dr Fox have utterly misjudged the tone of this debate in your attempts to defend Corbyn and Labour.
Well for a start my list was aimed more at the MPs contributions in the Syria debate yesterday and in particular todays Corbyn one on Parliament having a say before military action ( which would have passed but for their votes.)
I accept the timing of my post was lousy if we have genuine stories of abuse of MPs
I Condemn all abuse of MPs but if some of the stuff reported by the MPs in this debate happened what the fuck are the police playing at.
Why is the person threatening rape not on his way to jail
If you actually listened to the debate you would have heard Berger say that people had already been jailed for the abuse directed against her, and that others were under investigation (I hope I've got that right).
Yet it doesn't seem to have stemmed the abuse, for the reasons you so amply show. It's not antisemitism, it's because the MP doesn't like the anointed one.
Wonder how many of those jailed were Labour members? Presumably from the tone of this thread all of them.
Hopefully if any of them were they will have been expelled for life.
If none of them were what then?
*Your* party has allowed this poison to fester. Given his actions, do you really think Corbyn cares about antisemitism, yet alone understands it?
(BTW, Labour are not alone on this; all parties have their blind spots about loonies in their midst on various topics. It's just in this case they loonies have taken over the asylum.)
The government may well have called that anti semitism debate to focus the spotlight on Labour’s issues, but their own massive mess up re the Windrush generation means that will continue to be the focus of the headlines. Also makes it harder for them to present themselves as morally superior to Labour now. Both parties are in a total mess.
Frankly I'm not concerned with anyone coming out with moral superiority, I just want the furore to lead to positive effect. I cannot say I'm optimistic on the anti-semitism front, since we already had this issue come up before and apparently things have only gotten worse, and despite the recent outrages apparently no one really cares that much. So I hope the Windrush situation at least can be fixed/rolled back as needed, but as it derives from a policy implementation will be harder.
You may not be, but plenty of people I know are. Tbh I’m not optimistic re Labour really tackling anti semitism either. I was hopeful after Momentum’s statement earlier on, but now after hearing stories about Lansman et al I don’t see that there’s a will to take action.
There was briefly a moment when there was that will, but it was ruined with that laughable "Corbyn is antisemitic because he had dinner with the wrong kind of Jews" story.
Overnight, I saw a lot of Labour members' Twitter feeds switch from "shit, maybe there really is an issue here" to "God, this just shows it's a right-wing media campaign who just want to get at Corbyn".
Woodcock is an Anti Semite for his "Corbyn is antisemitic because he had dinner with the wrong kind of Jews" story.
Expel him now Jezza
I thought you were rooting out Anti Semites.
Angela Smith too said something derogatory about Jewish Socialist groups in general surely she has to go.
Those Labour MPs shouting down Dianne Abbott now are hypocrites and are using vile abuse. ( I am not actually watching but am sure its correct).
Am i getting the hang of this??
Not quite BJO - try to accept the heartfelt speeches, often with tears, from your own mps who are pleading for Corbyn to act, and first action to throw Livingstone out
Dianne Abbott being shouted down - labour mps need to walk out now
What did she say , that needed shouted down ?
Just failed to address the fears of her fellow mps and waffled incompetently
Hardly new big g , for a clever lady , she has been incoherent for a while.However she does not deserve to be shouted down , in a democratic chamber, or the abuse she gets on the internet.
No she doesn't deserve the abuse she gets on the internet - in terms of the chamber, well, barracking is a part of the nature of debates in the House, and it is the job of the Speaker to ensure she is still able to get her points across and stop people overdoing it.
There is so much criticism she deservedly earns, that the racial and sexist stuff she gets hit with just undermines the legitimate criticism, as well as being personally terrible.
I agree , however if big g is correct or maybe not worded correctly .Shouting down , sounds worse that the usual barracking.Nevertheless not a good look for any parliamentarian not to listen but to drown out what the person is trying to say.
Oh it sounds worse than the usual barracking from that description, but I would still put that responsibility on the Speaker for the debate. We've all seen examples where even the PM or LoTo cannot be heard when trying to respond to something, and the Speaker will intervene, and if it was so bad then whoever was in the chair should have done so with Abbott. MPs will be like boxers, fighting until they hear the bell or the referee steps in.
Personally, Abbott has so many unimpressive outings, that far better for people to hear her words than to drown them out.
The government may well have called that anti semitism debate to focus the spotlight on Labour’s issues, but their own massive mess up re the Windrush generation means that will continue to be the focus of the headlines. Also makes it harder for them to present themselves as morally superior to Labour now. Both parties are in a total mess.
Frankly I'm not concerned with anyone coming out with moral superiority, I just want the furore to lead to positive effect. I cannot say I'm optimistic on the anti-semitism front, since we already had this issue come up before and apparently things have only gotten worse, and despite the recent outrages apparently no one really cares that much. So I hope the Windrush situation at least can be fixed/rolled back as needed, but as it derives from a policy implementation will be harder.
You may not be, but plenty of people I know are. Tbh I’m not optimistic re Labour really tackling anti semitism either. I was hopeful after Momentum’s statement earlier on, but now after hearing stories about Lansman et al I don’t see that there’s a will to take action.
There was briefly a moment when there was that will, but it was ruined with that laughable "Corbyn is antisemitic because he had dinner with the wrong kind of Jews" story.
Overnight, I saw a lot of Labour members' Twitter feeds switch from "shit, maybe there really is an issue here" to "God, this just shows it's a right-wing media campaign who just want to get at Corbyn".
Woodcock is an Anti Semite for his "Corbyn is antisemitic because he had dinner with the wrong kind of Jews" story.
Expel him now Jezza
I thought you were rooting out Anti Semites.
Angela Smith too said something derogatory about Jewish Socialist groups in general surely she has to go.
Those Labour MPs shouting down Dianne Abbott now are hypocrites and are using vile abuse. ( I am not actually watching but am sure its correct).
Am i getting the hang of this??
It may well be - some people are able to hide their racism / sexism / antisemitism and not verbalise it. However abuse of a Jewish MP is not necessarily anti Semitic, if you look at what is said by the far left it often is anti Semitic.
Similarly with Diane Abbott, I have seen some sexist and racist stuff about her online, but it doesn't mean that I am sexist or racist because I don't think she has a grasp on numbers - I would think the same of a white man who came out with the guff she does. In fact I do think that of almost the entire Corbyn brigade.
Dianne Abbott being shouted down - labour mps need to walk out now
What did she say , that needed shouted down ?
Just failed to address the fears of her fellow mps and waffled incompetently
Hardly new big g , for a clever lady , she has been incoherent for a while.However she does not deserve to be shouted down , in a democratic chamber, or the abuse she gets on the internet.
Unfortunately she is Labours representative on QT this week in flipping Chesterfield
Cant see that ending well from a Labour point of view
A dear friend of mine (a native of Brimington) used to say: "Chesterfield, a town with a crooked spire filled with crooked people."
Then again, he was once banned from all the pubs in Staveley.
Dianne Abbott being shouted down - labour mps need to walk out now
What did she say , that needed shouted down ?
Just failed to address the fears of her fellow mps and waffled incompetently
Hardly new big g , for a clever lady , she has been incoherent for a while.However she does not deserve to be shouted down , in a democratic chamber, or the abuse she gets on the internet.
No she doesn't deserve the abuse she gets on the internet - in terms of the chamber, well, barracking is a part of the nature of debates in the House, and it is the job of the Speaker to ensure she is still able to get her points across and stop people overdoing it.
There is so much criticism she deservedly earns, that the racial and sexist stuff she gets hit with just undermines the legitimate criticism, as well as being personally terrible.
I agree , however if big g is correct or maybe not worded correctly .Shouting down , sounds worse that the usual barracking.Nevertheless not a good look for any parliamentarian not to listen but to drown out what the person is trying to say.
Oh it sounds worse than the usual barracking from that description, but I would still put that responsibility on the Speaker for the debate. We've all seen examples where even the PM or LoTo cannot be heard when trying to respond to something, and the Speaker will intervene, and if it was so bad then whoever was in the chair should have done so with Abbott. MPs will be like boxers, fighting until they hear the bell or the referee steps in.
Personally, Abbott has so many unimpressive outings, that far better for people to hear her words than to drown them out.
I agree , listening in complete silence , can be an effective tool.
Most interesting to hear impartial witnesses saying that Assad has the support of about 70% of his country. Not something we hear very often from our rather skewed media. From working many times in Beirut with Syrians not something I find surprising. The older Assad was feared but that was never the case with his son.
The thing about that story (no1) is that it doesn't ring true. The one thing we know about human behaviour is that no one does anything without a reason. The reason might not be valid but there has to be a reason. Why would the Syrian government pick up an arbitrary woman jail her and get five soldiers to rape her in every orifice. There must be a reason yet none is offered.
And if it is true why would anyone support the Assad government let alone a majority of Syrians? Most Syrians I know are very nice people
Why would they have arrested, tortured and murdered some kids who put up a bit of graffiti ? Which is where the whole civil war mess began.
If you are looking for a reason, it is that authoritarian dictatorships employ more than their fair share of sadists. There are good and bad people in all societies; some have better arrangements for controlling the behaviour of the latter.
Atrocities like the one you describe are usually nothing to do with the government. When I first arrived in Beirut the road from the airport was riddled with bombed out buildings. They had just ended a 20 year civil war. My Lebanese producer who later became my good friend told me how the conflict started.
Apparently the Palestinians from the camps started erecting road blocks all around Beirut. As a reprisal the Christians stopped a Palestinian school bus and killed all 41 children on board and then reprisal followed reprisal. He then went on to tell me that I'll meet one of the people responsible for the atrocity on the bus. He's now part of their construction crew. When the war ended he said everyone just went back to work and that was that.
Dianne Abbott being shouted down - labour mps need to walk out now
What did she say , that needed shouted down ?
Just failed to address the fears of her fellow mps and waffled incompetently
Hardly new big g , for a clever lady , she has been incoherent for a while.However she does not deserve to be shouted down , in a democratic chamber, or the abuse she gets on the internet.
No she doesn't deserve the abuse she gets on the internet - in terms of the chamber, well, barracking is a part of the nature of debates in the House, and it is the job of the Speaker to ensure she is still able to get her points across and stop people overdoing it.
There is so much criticism she deservedly earns, that the racial and sexist stuff she gets hit with just undermines the legitimate criticism, as well as being personally terrible.
I agree , however if big g is correct or maybe not worded correctly .Shouting down , sounds worse that the usual barracking.Nevertheless not a good look for any parliamentarian not to listen but to drown out what the person is trying to say.
She sparked an angry response from all sides due to her failure to show any empathy with those mps on her own side who are really hurting
Still nothing on the BBC about this (front page or Politics). A little time to write stuff up is fair enough, but this is nearly an hour old.
As you yourself said last night's BBC News at 10 was a masterclass in making May look like she was under pressure during the Syria Debate whilst failing to mention that Corbyn was hammered from both sides of the House. Lets see if the BBC can muster a little more balance today.
The Corbynistas certainly should be thankful to the BBC for their (lack of) coverage these past two days.
My anger is rising. The blatant protecting of Labour by the BBC is beyond belief. If there was an equivalent split and evidence of racism in the Tories it would be wall to wall coverage. Labour needs to be forced to lance the boil -even if it means splitting.
Chill, or widen the scope of your anger. Sky news and the front page of the Torygraph have no more to say about it than the beeb.
I should probably do a bit of both. I keep trying to convince myself that I am too alarmed at the current Labour leadership but I keep failing to do so.
It may well be - some people are able to hide their racism / sexism / antisemitism and not verbalise it. However abuse of a Jewish MP is not necessarily anti Semitic, if you look at what is said by the far left it often is anti Semitic.
Similarly with Diane Abbott, I have seen some sexist and racist stuff about her online, but it doesn't mean that I am sexist or racist because I don't think she has a grasp on numbers - I would think the same of a white man who came out with the guff she does. In fact I do think that of almost the entire Corbyn brigade.
She comes across as brain damaged: the impression I got from the stuff about the Jews in her constituency was that she was clinging to it because a simple narrative is within her ability and abstract debate isn't. As with Charlie Kennedy I feel if her party had her best interests at heart they would allow her to retire. There is no way she is going to make it as an actual Home Secretary, if the possibility arises.
Dianne Abbott being shouted down - labour mps need to walk out now
What did she say , that needed shouted down ?
Just failed to address the fears of her fellow mps and waffled incompetently
Hardly new big g , for a clever lady , she has been incoherent for a while.However she does not deserve to be shouted down , in a democratic chamber, or the abuse she gets on the internet.
Unfortunately she is Labours representative on QT this week in flipping Chesterfield
Cant see that ending well from a Labour point of view
Not the best to be honest lately.Dianne About used to be quite engaging on This Week some years ago.However as I said earlier seems at times incoherent and really struggled .Which is a shame
' The ZEW Indicator of Economic Sentiment for Germany once again experienced a sharp decline in April 2018, dropping by 13.3 points compared to March and even 26.0 points compared to February. The indicator currently stands at minus 8.2 points, falling far below the long-term average of 23.5 points. '
I do think that the EZ economy will stall a bit this year and I would not rule out the U.K. matching them in growth. I certainly expect the forecasts of us being left in the dust in January or February will look as credible as the rest of project fear by June (Q1 is looking problematic).
But a recession? Give us a break. I would be fairly confident that was rot even if it wasn’t by AEP.
As an aside, we all have instinctual prejudices. I see this often, when I walk by bearded and covered in mud (e.g. last Friday, the muddiest walk I have ever been on). You are scruffy and muddy, therefore you must be strange. (*)
The key is to reject those immediate prejudices if you act on it. You see a black man in a rural village and take a second glance. That isn't racism, it's natural reaction to seeing something unusual. It is racism if you refuse to serve him a drink, or cross the road.
If you see a man (white, black or a curious shade of asparagus) carrying a knife in the street, it isn't an -ism to cross the road.
Hopefully if you see enough cases that counter an instinctual prejudice, that prejudice dissipates.
(*) In this case the prejudices are possibly correct.
The general principle of identifying errors and then correcting them, and recognising the good of that correction, is not, in itself, untrue, but somewhat misses the point that that works best with unavoidable issues, whereas with better planning, implementation or just plain a better policy this one would not have happened in the first place to be corrected, it was, seemingly, avoidable. You don't need to hit the iceberg to learn it is a bad idea.
I'd put that defence from Hannon, as lampooned, as similar to some of Corbyn's faux reasonableness.
Dianne Abbott being shouted down - labour mps need to walk out now
What did she say , that needed shouted down ?
Just failed to address the fears of her fellow mps and waffled incompetently
Hardly new big g , for a clever lady , she has been incoherent for a while.However she does not deserve to be shouted down , in a democratic chamber, or the abuse she gets on the internet.
Unfortunately she is Labours representative on QT this week in flipping Chesterfield
Cant see that ending well from a Labour point of view
Not the best to be honest lately.Dianne About used to be quite engaging on This Week some years ago.However as I said earlier seems at times incoherent and really struggled .Which is a shame
I have never been a fan and found her hypocrisy about schools fairly nauseating but there has been something materially different in the last 18 months. I am certainly not going to try the sort of long range diagnosis of someone I don’t know that @Cyclefree was rightly complaining about but I really wonder if she is well. Whilst I always found her annoying she was undoubtedly sharp and clear in her views. Now she just seems confused.
The government may well have called that anti semitism debate to focus the spotlight on Labour’s issues, but their own massive mess up re the Windrush generation means that will continue to be the focus of the headlines. Also makes it harder for them to present themselves as morally superior to Labour now. Both parties are in a total mess.
Frankly I'm not concerned with anyone coming out with moral superiority, I just want the furore to lead to positive effect. I cannot say I'm optimistic on the anti-semitism front, since we already had this issue come up before and apparently things have only gotten worse, and despite the recent outrages apparently no one really cares that much. So I hope the Windrush situation at least can be fixed/rolled back as needed, but as it derives from a policy implementation will be harder.
You may not be, but plenty of people I know are. Tbh I’m not optimistic re Labour really tackling anti semitism either. I was hopeful after Momentum’s statement earlier on, but now after hearing stories about Lansman et al I don’t see that there’s a will to take action.
There was briefly a moment when there was that will, but it was ruined with that laughable "Corbyn is antisemitic because he had dinner with the wrong kind of Jews" story.
Overnight, I saw a lot of Labour members' Twitter feeds switch from "shit, maybe there really is an issue here" to "God, this just shows it's a right-wing media campaign who just want to get at Corbyn".
Woodcock is an Anti Semite for his "Corbyn is antisemitic because he had dinner with the wrong kind of Jews" story.
Expel him now Jezza
I thought you were rooting out Anti Semites.
Angela Smith too said something derogatory about Jewish Socialist groups in general surely she has to go.
Those Labour MPs shouting down Dianne Abbott now are hypocrites and are using vile abuse. ( I am not actually watching but am sure its correct).
Am i getting the hang of this??
It isn't a good idea to be dragged around the houses on these anti Semitic charges. It is a good example of Corbyn's poor judgement nothing more. He should never have pleaded guilty on behalf of the Labour Party because it's garbage. Listen to cyclefree talking about 'blood libels'. A complete load of juvenile tosh and she should know better.
50 years ago my Dad was refused admission to a golf club because at that time Jews couldn't join golf clubs. That was anti Semitism. I went into a garage a few months ago and saw someone in the queue tell the Pakistani who was serving to 'go home'. That was racism. If Jeremy Corbyn's a racist I'm a Dutchman.
The government may well have called that anti semitism debate to focus the spotlight on Labour’s issues, but their own massive mess up re the Windrush generation means that will continue to be the focus of the headlines. Also makes it harder for them to present themselves as morally superior to Labour now. Both parties are in a total mess.
Frankly I'm not concerned with anyone coming out with moral superiority, I just want the furore to lead to positive effect. I cannot say I'm optimistic on the anti-semitism front, since we already had this issue come up before and apparently things have only gotten worse, and despite the recent outrages apparently no one really cares that much. So I hope the Windrush situation at least can be fixed/rolled back as needed, but as it derives from a policy implementation will be harder.
You may not be, but plenty of people I know are. Tbh I’m not optimistic re Labour really tackling anti semitism either. I was hopeful after Momentum’s statement earlier on, but now after hearing stories about Lansman et al I don’t see that there’s a will to take action.
There was briefly a moment when there was that will, but it was ruined with that laughable "Corbyn is antisemitic because he had dinner with the wrong kind of Jews" story.
Overnight, I saw a lot of Labour members' Twitter feeds switch from "shit, maybe there really is an issue here" to "God, this just shows it's a right-wing media campaign who just want to get at Corbyn".
Woodcock is an Anti Semite for his "Corbyn is antisemitic because he had dinner with the wrong kind of Jews" story.
Expel him now Jezza
I thought you were rooting out Anti Semites.
Angela Smith too said something derogatory about Jewish Socialist groups in general surely she has to go.
Those Labour MPs shouting down Dianne Abbott now are hypocrites and are using vile abuse. ( I am not actually watching but am sure its correct).
Am i getting the hang of this??
He should never have pleaded guilty on behalf of the Labour Party because it's garbage.
Even if true, that option not to do so is not open to him anymore.
On topic. Having had no communication from them, I’ve now had Conservative leaflets deleivered two days in a row in West Finchley. Not that this ward is likely to be in play.
Eh? Are you actually saying Mann is standing up to say his wife has had rape threats because he doesn't agree politically with Corbyn?
Sadly threats and abuse online are part of modern life, I believe Dianne Abbott is the number one target. Anti-semitic trolls vie with a lot of others in their repulsiveness.
Citation required. Who is responsible for keeping track of this rather sad league table? The Commons?
List aside, Diane has spoken quite compellingly about (predominantly) racism she receives.
And we should not downplay that. There are plenty of reasons to criticise Diane Abbott without descending to racism (as indeed there are all MPs without resorting to 'isms).
However Dr Fox bringing it up in response to this debate in an attempt to downplay it is a little odd. Another CorbyniteLib Dem who is utter denial.
I have never denied that there is an anti-semetic streak in some of the far left, just pointing out that online threats for fairly pathetic reasons are par for the course in modern life.
This debate will have consequencies for labour and you seem to be trying to play it down
Lectures on prejudice from the party harrassing and threatening elderly legal British residents with deportation are not worth listening to.
You disgust me.
There have clearly been mistakes made in the handling of the Windrush children but fundamentally it’s about asking residents to prove their right to residency.
That is completely different to the debate ongoing at the moment
The government may well have called that anti semitism debate to focus the spotlight on Labour’s issues, but their own massive mess up re the Windrush generation means that will continue to be the focus of the headlines. Also makes it harder for them to present themselves as morally superior to Labour now. Both parties are in a total mess.
Frankly I'm not concerned with anyone coming out with moral superiority, I just want the furore to lead to positive effect. I cannot say I'm optimistic on the anti-semitism front, since we already had this issue come up before and apparently things have only gotten worse, and despite the recent outrages apparently no one really cares that much. So I hope the Windrush situation at least can be fixed/rolled back as needed, but as it derives from a policy implementation will be harder.
You may not be, but plenty of people I know are. Tbh I’m not optimistic re Labour really tackling anti semitism either. I was hopeful after Momentum’s statement earlier on, but now after hearing stories about Lansman et al I don’t see that there’s a will to take action.
There was briefly a moment when there was that will, but it was ruined with that laughable "Corbyn is antisemitic because he had dinner with the wrong kind of Jews" story.
Overnight, I saw a lot of Labour members' Twitter feeds switch from "shit, maybe there really is an issue here" to "God, this just shows it's a right-wing media campaign who just want to get at Corbyn".
Yes , I remember the BBC main news was struggling with that one.That Corbyn had met with a Jewish Group but for some reason , that was a problem.
Just listened to the 7.30 news on Radio 6 - the debate was item 3, after Windrush and Salisbury. Reported fairly dully - not in an obviously partisan way, although not in a way - given the 70 seconds or so available - that anyone unfamiliar with the issue might pick up a great deal from. I'm never terribly convinced by BBC claims of impartiality, but happy to say there was nothing really to complain about there. Windrush and Salisbury also reported admirably evenly.
On topic. Having had no communication from them, I’ve now had Conservative leaflets deleivered two days in a row in West Finchley. Not that this ward is likely to be in play.
Well at least they are making an effort - I always appreciate that even in a no-hoper ward. One time I in part based my final decision on who had made the greatest effort (it didn't matter which one I went for, since it was so safe anyway)
The thing about that story (no1) is that it doesn't ring true. The one thing we know about human behaviour is that no one does anything without a reason. The reason might not be valid but there has to be a reason. Why would the Syrian government pick up an arbitrary woman jail her and get five soldiers to rape her in every orifice. There must be a reason yet none is offered.
Doesn't look even slightly surprising. This is a government that regularly attacks hospitals, schools and apartment blocks, with barrel-bombs, incendiary devices, cluster bombs, and chemical weapons. Torture and "disappearances" are routine.
On topic. Having had no communication from them, I’ve now had Conservative leaflets deleivered two days in a row in West Finchley. Not that this ward is likely to be in play.
Well at least they are making an effort - I always appreciate that even in a no-hoper ward. One time I in part based my final decision on who had made the greatest effort (it didn't matter which one I went for, since it was so safe anyway)
Quite. It is not good to feel ignored! Nothing from the Lib Dem’s or Greens yet.
The government may well have called that anti semitism debate to focus the spotlight on Labour’s issues, but their own massive mess up re the Windrush generation means that will continue to be the focus of the headlines. Also makes it harder for them to present themselves as morally superior to Labour now. Both parties are in a total mess.
Frankly I'm not concerned with anyone coming out with moral superiority, I just want the furore to lead to positive effect. I cannot say I'm optimistic on the anti-semitism front, since we already had this issue come up before and apparently things have only gotten worse, and despite the recent outrages apparently no one really cares that much. So I hope the Windrush situation at least can be fixed/rolled back as needed, but as it derives from a policy implementation will be harder.
You may not be, but plenty of people I know are. Tbh I’m not optimistic re Labour really tackling anti semitism either. I was hopeful after Momentum’s statement earlier on, but now after hearing stories about Lansman et al I don’t see that there’s a will to take action.
There was briefly a moment when there was that will, but it was ruined with that laughable "Corbyn is antisemitic because he had dinner with the wrong kind of Jews" story.
Overnight, I saw a lot of Labour members' Twitter feeds switch from "shit, maybe there really is an issue here" to "God, this just shows it's a right-wing media campaign who just want to get at Corbyn".
Yes , I remember the BBC main news was struggling with that one.That Corbyn had met with a Jewish Group but for some reason , that was a problem.
The snowflake generation of Corybnistas understand the problem but only once you explain it in social justice speak. Corybn''s behaviour was "gaslighting".
The thing about that story (no1) is that it doesn't ring true. The one thing we know about human behaviour is that no one does anything without a reason. The reason might not be valid but there has to be a reason. Why would the Syrian government pick up an arbitrary woman jail her and get five soldiers to rape her in every orifice. There must be a reason yet none is offered.
Doesn't look even slightly surprising. This is a government that regularly attacks hospitals, schools and apartment blocks, with barrel-bombs, incendiary devices, cluster bombs, and chemical weapons. Torture and "disappearances" are routine.
The Syrian goverment practices its own form of Nacht und Nebel. Tens of thousands have disappeared, and most of them have likely been killed by the regime. Roger's incredulity says a lot about his gullibility.
Dianne Abbott being shouted down - labour mps need to walk out now
What did she say , that needed shouted down ?
Just failed to address the fears of her fellow mps and waffled incompetently
Hardly new big g , for a clever lady , she has been incoherent for a while.However she does not deserve to be shouted down , in a democratic chamber, or the abuse she gets on the internet.
Unfortunately she is Labours representative on QT this week in flipping Chesterfield
Cant see that ending well from a Labour point of view
A dear friend of mine (a native of Brimington) used to say: "Chesterfield, a town with a crooked spire filled with crooked people."
Then again, he was once banned from all the pubs in Staveley.
Wow I used to live in Brimington.
I then downgraded to near Staveley.
Your mate must have been a "Character" there are loads of pubs in Staveley.
I find Chesterfield has a small Town mentality
Still I am doing a bit of Ground hopping at Forest Green on Saturday and may well see Chesterfield relegated out of the football league for the first time ever.
' The ZEW Indicator of Economic Sentiment for Germany once again experienced a sharp decline in April 2018, dropping by 13.3 points compared to March and even 26.0 points compared to February. The indicator currently stands at minus 8.2 points, falling far below the long-term average of 23.5 points. '
I do think that the EZ economy will stall a bit this year and I would not rule out the U.K. matching them in growth. I certainly expect the forecasts of us being left in the dust in January or February will look as credible as the rest of project fear by June (Q1 is looking problematic).
But a recession? Give us a break. I would be fairly confident that was rot even if it wasn’t by AEP.
I wouldn't expect more than 0.1% growth in Q1.
The problem with any slowdown in the EZ is that we need strong growth elsewhere to boost exports and we are already having to cope with sterling at a higher level.
The thing about that story (no1) is that it doesn't ring true. The one thing we know about human behaviour is that no one does anything without a reason. The reason might not be valid but there has to be a reason. Why would the Syrian government pick up an arbitrary woman jail her and get five soldiers to rape her in every orifice. There must be a reason yet none is offered.
Doesn't look even slightly surprising. This is a government that regularly attacks hospitals, schools and apartment blocks, with barrel-bombs, incendiary devices, cluster bombs, and chemical weapons. Torture and "disappearances" are routine.
The Syrian goverment practices its own form of Nacht und Nebel. Tens of thousands have disappeared, and most of them have likely been killed by the regime. Roger's incredulity says a lot about his gullibility.
I saw Rogers post when I was on train - utterly disgusting
He should never have pleaded guilty on behalf of the Labour Party because it's garbage. Listen to cyclefree talking about 'blood libels'. A complete load of juvenile tosh and she should know better.
Blood libels are not juvenile tosh. You should know better. Listen to Ms Berger and Ms Smeeth. Is what they are saying “juvenile tosh”?
Let’s take Raed Salah: In 2013, Raed Salah was tried for incitement to violence and incitement to racism over his remarks in 2007 at Wadi Joz. He was convicted of incitement to violence by the Jerusalem Magistrates' Court, but initially acquitted of incitement to racism and sentenced to eight months in prison. Israeli prosecutors appealed Salah's acquittal on the racism charge to the Jerusalem District Court. The District Court overturned the earlier acquittal in November 2011, finding Salah guilty of incitement to racism for his 'blood libel' comments.
What were those comments at Wadi Joz?
According to reports, during a protest speech in the East Jerusalem neighborhood of Wadi al-Joz on February 16, 2007, Salah accused Jews of using children's blood to bake bread. Israeli newspapers at the time quoted him as saying:
“We [Muslims] have never allowed ourselves to knead [the dough for] the bread that breaks the fast in the holy month of Ramadan with children's blood. Whoever wants a more thorough explanation, let him ask what used to happen to some children in Europe, whose blood was mixed in with the dough of the [Jewish] holy bread.”
That references very explicitly the medieval blood libel against Jews.
Why Raed Salah? Because this is the man that Corbyn invited to Parliament saying that his is a voice which should be heard. Of all the Palestinians to invite he picks this one. It says something about his judgment.
And it says something about yours, Roger, that you should choose to dismiss this as trivial tosh. It is not. It has real consequences for Jews in this country because too many within the Labour party (and elsewhere) feel emboldened to attack Jews in nasty and unpleasant ways, in ways we thought had disappeared after WW2 and they apparently feel so emboldened because the Labour leader has spent so much of his career before he became leader associating with such people - so they think that there really isn’t anything very wrong with it.
Corbyn had a golden opportunity during this debate to prove his critics wrong, to show that he is militantly against racism directed at Jews, to set the tone, to set an example. He failed to take it.
Off topic, but the huge clean up at Salisbury will result in a quantity of waste for which the only sensible disposal option is incineration. There are many incineration facilities, but realistically only one or two UK options are available. It will not be exported. I will not name the options, but expect a huge public reaction, Fracking is so "Last year", compared with this.
Dianne Abbott being shouted down - labour mps need to walk out now
What did she say , that needed shouted down ?
Just failed to address the fears of her fellow mps and waffled incompetently
Hardly new big g , for a clever lady , she has been incoherent for a while.However she does not deserve to be shouted down , in a democratic chamber, or the abuse she gets on the internet.
Unfortunately she is Labours representative on QT this week in flipping Chesterfield
Cant see that ending well from a Labour point of view
A dear friend of mine (a native of Brimington) used to say: "Chesterfield, a town with a crooked spire filled with crooked people."
Then again, he was once banned from all the pubs in Staveley.
Wow I used to live in Brimington.
I then downgraded to near Staveley.
Your mate must have been a "Character" there are loads of pubs in Staveley.
I find Chesterfield has a small Town mentality
Still I am doing a bit of Ground hopping at Forest Green on Saturday and may well see Chesterfield relegated out of the football league for the first time ever.
He used to say: "Staveley has three industries: a coal mine, a railway, and a benzine plant. The coal mine's shut, the railway's shut, and the benzine plant's on half-shift."
A bit unfair. I was once set to the Staveley brickworks to pick up a load of wet (i.e. unfired) bricks with which we could block off a culvert. Being a bit daft, i couldn't find the entrance ...
Dianne Abbott being shouted down - labour mps need to walk out now
What did she say , that needed shouted down ?
Just failed to address the fears of her fellow mps and waffled incompetently
Hardly new big g , for a clever lady , she has been incoherent for a while.However she does not deserve to be shouted down , in a democratic chamber, or the abuse she gets on the internet.
Unfortunately she is Labours representative on QT this week in flipping Chesterfield
Cant see that ending well from a Labour point of view
A dear friend of mine (a native of Brimington) used to say: "Chesterfield, a town with a crooked spire filled with crooked people."
Then again, he was once banned from all the pubs in Staveley.
Wow I used to live in Brimington.
I then downgraded to near Staveley.
Your mate must have been a "Character" there are loads of pubs in Staveley.
I find Chesterfield has a small Town mentality
Still I am doing a bit of Ground hopping at Forest Green on Saturday and may well see Chesterfield relegated out of the football league for the first time ever.
A sad day if Chesterfield do go down. I thought I might get the chance to see them play at Woking next season, but they're in free all and look to be heading back to National League South.
The thing about that story (no1) is that it doesn't ring true. The one thing we know about human behaviour is that no one does anything without a reason. The reason might not be valid but there has to be a reason. Why would the Syrian government pick up an arbitrary woman jail her and get five soldiers to rape her in every orifice. There must be a reason yet none is offered.
Doesn't look even slightly surprising. This is a government that regularly attacks hospitals, schools and apartment blocks, with barrel-bombs, incendiary devices, cluster bombs, and chemical weapons. Torture and "disappearances" are routine.
The Syrian goverment practices its own form of Nacht und Nebel. Tens of thousands have disappeared, and most of them have likely been killed by the regime. Roger's incredulity says a lot about his gullibility.
One way to improve your percentage popularity is to slaughter your opponents. It's quite a good motivator for those on the fence too.
Dianne Abbott being shouted down - labour mps need to walk out now
What did she say , that needed shouted down ?
Just failed to address the fears of her fellow mps and waffled incompetently
Hardly new big g , for a clever lady , she has been incoherent for a while.However she does not deserve to be shouted down , in a democratic chamber, or the abuse she gets on the internet.
Unfortunately she is Labours representative on QT this week in flipping Chesterfield
Cant see that ending well from a Labour point of view
Not the best to be honest lately.Dianne About used to be quite engaging on This Week some years ago.However as I said earlier seems at times incoherent and really struggled .Which is a shame
I have never been a fan and found her hypocrisy about schools fairly nauseating but there has been something materially different in the last 18 months. I am certainly not going to try the sort of long range diagnosis of someone I don’t know that @Cyclefree was rightly complaining about but I really wonder if she is well. Whilst I always found her annoying she was undoubtedly sharp and clear in her views. Now she just seems confused.
I totally agree , especially on the Schools .However I am no doctor but she did not seem herself through the last election campaign and since.Not the Dianne About ,I remember on This Week , with Andrew Neil and Michael Portillo.
Having said that , I stopped watching This Week and QT over two years ago.
Dianne Abbott being shouted down - labour mps need to walk out now
What did she say , that needed shouted down ?
Just failed to address the fears of her fellow mps and waffled incompetently
Hardly new big g , for a clever lady , she has been incoherent for a while.However she does not deserve to be shouted down , in a democratic chamber, or the abuse she gets on the internet.
Unfortunately she is Labours representative on QT this week in flipping Chesterfield
Cant see that ending well from a Labour point of view
Not the best to be honest lately.Dianne About used to be quite engaging on This Week some years ago.However as I said earlier seems at times incoherent and really struggled .Which is a shame
I have never been a fan and found her hypocrisy about schools fairly nauseating but there has been something materially different in the last 18 months. I am certainly not going to try the sort of long range diagnosis of someone I don’t know that @Cyclefree was rightly complaining about but I really wonder if she is well. Whilst I always found her annoying she was undoubtedly sharp and clear in her views. Now she just seems confused.
I totally agree , especially on the Schools .However I am no doctor but she did not seem herself through the last election campaign and since.Not the Dianne About ,I remember on This Week , with Andrew Neil and Michael Portillo.
Having said that , I stopped watching This Week and QT over two years ago.
I am coming round to the thought that she must be unwell. To be fair she needs to step out of the limelight for her own well being though I doubt she will. She is not a positive for labour
"Downing Street has defended the Home Office's decision to destroy landing cards recording the arrival of Windrush generation immigrants to the UK.
A spokesman for Prime Minister Theresa May said disposing of the documents was the right decision to take, amid a row over the immigration status of people who came to Britain from the Commonwealth after the Second World War."
Dianne Abbott being shouted down - labour mps need to walk out now
What did she say , that needed shouted down ?
Just failed to address the fears of her fellow mps and waffled incompetently
Hardly new big g , for a clever lady , she has been incoherent for a while.However she does not deserve to be shouted down , in a democratic chamber, or the abuse she gets on the internet.
Unfortunately she is Labours representative on QT this week in flipping Chesterfield
Cant see that ending well from a Labour point of view
Not the best to be honest lately.Dianne About used to be quite engaging on This Week some years ago.However as I said earlier seems at times incoherent and really struggled .Which is a shame
I have never been a fan and found her hypocrisy about schools fairly nauseating but there has been something materially different in the last 18 months. I am certainly not going to try the sort of long range diagnosis of someone I don’t know that @Cyclefree was rightly complaining about but I really wonder if she is well. Whilst I always found her annoying she was undoubtedly sharp and clear in her views. Now she just seems confused.
I totally agree , especially on the Schools .However I am no doctor but she did not seem herself through the last election campaign and since.Not the Dianne About ,I remember on This Week , with Andrew Neil and Michael Portillo.
Having said that , I stopped watching This Week and QT over two years ago.
I am coming round to the thought that she must be unwell. To be fair she needs to step out of the limelight for her own well being though I doubt she will. She is not a positive for labour
A big Negative.
I am glad I didn't get in at the Winding Wheel on Thursday.
Some of my Socialist mates will be there though.
They have been asked to write 2 questions from which presumably the Beeb decide on most popular.
' The ZEW Indicator of Economic Sentiment for Germany once again experienced a sharp decline in April 2018, dropping by 13.3 points compared to March and even 26.0 points compared to February. The indicator currently stands at minus 8.2 points, falling far below the long-term average of 23.5 points. '
Personally, I prefer Markit, as ZEW is a survey of investment professionals, rather than business people.
That being said: it is showing a very similar picture with economic confidence in the Eurozone down from close to 60 to perhaps 54 now. China, the US and the UK have shown similar - albeit smaller - drops, with China and the UK only just outside recession-zone at 52.
Dianne Abbott being shouted down - labour mps need to walk out now
What did she say , that needed shouted down ?
Just failed to address the fears of her fellow mps and waffled incompetently
Hardly new big g , for a clever lady , she has been incoherent for a while.However she does not deserve to be shouted down , in a democratic chamber, or the abuse she gets on the internet.
Unfortunately she is Labours representative on QT this week in flipping Chesterfield
Cant see that ending well from a Labour point of view
A dear friend of mine (a native of Brimington) used to say: "Chesterfield, a town with a crooked spire filled with crooked people."
Then again, he was once banned from all the pubs in Staveley.
Wow I used to live in Brimington.
I then downgraded to near Staveley.
Your mate must have been a "Character" there are loads of pubs in Staveley.
I find Chesterfield has a small Town mentality
Still I am doing a bit of Ground hopping at Forest Green on Saturday and may well see Chesterfield relegated out of the football league for the first time ever.
A sad day if Chesterfield do go down. I thought I might get the chance to see them play at Woking next season, but they're in free all and look to be heading back to National League South.
I am on 277 grounds I will PM you when I get round to Woking.
Dianne Abbott being shouted down - labour mps need to walk out now
What did she say , that needed shouted down ?
Just failed to address the fears of her fellow mps and waffled incompetently
Hardly new big g , for a clever lady , she has been incoherent for a while.However she does not deserve to be shouted down , in a democratic chamber, or the abuse she gets on the internet.
Unfortunately she is Labours representative on QT this week in flipping Chesterfield
Cant see that ending well from a Labour point of view
A dear friend of mine (a native of Brimington) used to say: "Chesterfield, a town with a crooked spire filled with crooked people."
Then again, he was once banned from all the pubs in Staveley.
Wow I used to live in Brimington.
I then downgraded to near Staveley.
Your mate must have been a "Character" there are loads of pubs in Staveley.
I find Chesterfield has a small Town mentality
Still I am doing a bit of Ground hopping at Forest Green on Saturday and may well see Chesterfield relegated out of the football league for the first time ever.
A sad day if Chesterfield do go down. I thought I might get the chance to see them play at Woking next season, but they're in free all and look to be heading back to National League South.
I am on 277 grounds I will PM you when I get round to Woking.
Wow, is that in England, Britain, Europe, the world?
Dianne Abbott being shouted down - labour mps need to walk out now
What did she say , that needed shouted down ?
Just failed to address the fears of her fellow mps and waffled incompetently
Hardly new big g , for a clever lady , she has been incoherent for a while.However she does not deserve to be shouted down , in a democratic chamber, or the abuse she gets on the internet.
Unfortunately she is Labours representative on QT this week in flipping Chesterfield
Cant see that ending well from a Labour point of view
Not the best to be honest lately.Dianne About used to be quite engaging on This Week some years ago.However as I said earlier seems at times incoherent and really struggled .Which is a shame
I have never been a fan and found her hypocrisy about schools fairly nauseating but there has been something materially different in the last 18 months. I am certainly not going to try the sort of long range diagnosis of someone I don’t know that @Cyclefree was rightly complaining about but I really wonder if she is well. Whilst I always found her annoying she was undoubtedly sharp and clear in her views. Now she just seems confused.
I totally agree , especially on the Schools .However I am no doctor but she did not seem herself through the last election campaign and since.Not the Dianne About ,I remember on This Week , with Andrew Neil and Michael Portillo.
Having said that , I stopped watching This Week and QT over two years ago.
I am coming round to the thought that she must be unwell. To be fair she needs to step out of the limelight for her own well being though I doubt she will. She is not a positive for labour
Blood libels are not juvenile tosh. You should know better. Listen to Ms Berger and Ms Smeeth. Is what they are saying “juvenile tosh”?
What were those comments at Wadi Joz?
According to reports, during a protest speech in the East Jerusalem neighborhood of Wadi al-Joz on February 16, 2007, Salah accused Jews of using children's blood to bake bread. Israeli newspapers at the time quoted him as saying:
“We [Muslims] have never allowed ourselves to knead [the dough for] the bread that breaks the fast in the holy month of Ramadan with children's blood. Whoever wants a more thorough explanation, let him ask what used to happen to some children in Europe, whose blood was mixed in with the dough of the [Jewish] holy bread.”
That references very explicitly the medieval blood libel against Jews.
Why Raed Salah? Because this is the man that Corbyn invited to Parliament saying that his is a voice which should be heard. Of all the Palestinians to invite he picks this one. It says something about his judgment.
And it says something about yours, Roger, that you should choose to dismiss this as trivial tosh. It is not. It has real consequences for Jews in this country because too many within the Labour party (and elsewhere) feel emboldened to attack Jews in nasty and unpleasant ways, in ways we thought had disappeared after WW2 and they apparently feel so emboldened because the Labour leader has spent so much of his career before he became leader associating with such people - so they think that there really isn’t anything very wrong with it.
Corbyn had a golden opportunity during this debate to prove his critics wrong, to show that he is militantly against racism directed at Jews, to set the tone, to set an example. He failed to take it.
Your black and white world doesn't exist. He is an Arab mayor of an Israeli city and as such I'm sure he's got plenty to teach us. Why would you not want to hear what he says? This guilt by association is beneath you. Netanyahu appointed a defence minister who described the Palestinians as 'snakes who should be exterminated'. Netanyahu has been entertained in Downing St. Does that make Mrs May a racist?
I don't know whether you have ever read the Passover prayer book but in addition on to wishing upon the Egyptians the ten plagues there are examples of racism on every page. Every Jew who has ever attended a Passover Service (which is everyone) has recited the same race hate. It's baloney. I'm pretty sure none of us wish for the death of their first born.
I’m totally fed up with the kind of abuse many of our MPs are getting. Whether that’s anti-Semitic, racist, misogynistic or just threats of violence.
Who’d be an MP?
Isn’t it time we cleaned up social media somehow? The anonymity encourages a small but vile minority to contaminate and polarise our entire political debate.
I’m sure the media now spend more time discussing the latest twitter outrage than any substantive policy issues.
"Downing Street has defended the Home Office's decision to destroy landing cards recording the arrival of Windrush generation immigrants to the UK.
A spokesman for Prime Minister Theresa May said disposing of the documents was the right decision to take, amid a row over the immigration status of people who came to Britain from the Commonwealth after the Second World War."
To be fair most non EU visitors have to complete landing cards on arrival - why would you keep landing cards from 50 plus years ago when milions are issued annually now?
It just highlights generally our generally lacklustre systems for proving entitlement to residency and entitlements for those who have no need for a passport. Almost every other EU nation has a national ID card for permanent residents and citizens - even Ireland now has a public services card which will soon be pretty well essential to access welfare, get a driving licence or a passport. Most EUs states also require you to register if you have been there for more than 3 months - even for Eu nationals.
This ridiculous situation would be less likely to occur - as we would have proper records and identity systems. Being asked to give evidence you paid National insurance for decades as your proof of entitlement to residency is just crazy!
Makes you wonder how accurate our population and migration estimates are - particularly when migration levels are based on extrapolations from surveys at airports conducted by someone with a clipboard. I doubt that has modernised much since the 1950s either!
I’m totally fed up with the kind of abuse many of our MPs are getting. Whether that’s anti-Semitic, racist, misogynistic or just threats of violence.
Who’d be an MP?
Isn’t it time we cleaned up social media somehow? The anonymity encourages a small but vile minority to contaminate and polarise our entire political debate.
I’m sure the media now spend more time discussing the latest twitter outrage than any substantive policy issues.
It’s tearing us apart.
Social media was very much part of the debate and the mps anger towards it with many demanding action to stop the outrages
I’m totally fed up with the kind of abuse many of our MPs are getting. Whether that’s anti-Semitic, racist, misogynistic or just threats of violence.
Who’d be an MP?
Isn’t it time we cleaned up social media somehow? The anonymity encourages a small but vile minority to contaminate and polarise our entire political debate.
I’m sure the media now spend more time discussing the latest twitter outrage than any substantive policy issues.
It’s tearing us apart.
Social media was very much part of the debate and the mps anger towards it with many demanding action to stop the outrages
Good. I’ve no idea what the solution is and I hate the idea of controls on free speech but it seems we have invented a new kind of speech - mass but anonymous - with harmful side-effects that need addressing.
' The ZEW Indicator of Economic Sentiment for Germany once again experienced a sharp decline in April 2018, dropping by 13.3 points compared to March and even 26.0 points compared to February. The indicator currently stands at minus 8.2 points, falling far below the long-term average of 23.5 points. '
Personally, I prefer Markit, as ZEW is a survey of investment professionals, rather than business people.
That being said: it is showing a very similar picture with economic confidence in the Eurozone down from close to 60 to perhaps 54 now. China, the US and the UK have shown similar - albeit smaller - drops, with China and the UK only just outside recession-zone at 52.
The problem is if the rest of the world isn't growing strongly then Britain can either grow the economy or rebalance the economy but not both.
Corbyn is probably not anti-Semitic himself, but he swims in anti-Semitic waters and he has opened up the Labour Party to far left, and hence often anti-Semitic, infiltration.
It beggars belief that even Chakrabarti’s useless report has not been enacted in full.
His failure to get to grips with it makes him morally culpable in my view. The history books will be damning.
Just catching up on today’s events, that is absolutely shocking evidence of antisemitism from the Labour MPs.
Also, is that Tom Watson sitting between Luciana Berger and Ruth Smeeth on the back bench? What’s he going to do about the problem that’s infesting his own party?
Just catching up on today’s events, that is absolutely shocking evidence of antisemitism from the Labour MPs.
Also, is that Tom Watson sitting between Luciana Berger and Ruth Smeeth on the back bench? What’s he going to do about the problem that’s infesting his own party?
"Downing Street has defended the Home Office's decision to destroy landing cards recording the arrival of Windrush generation immigrants to the UK.
A spokesman for Prime Minister Theresa May said disposing of the documents was the right decision to take, amid a row over the immigration status of people who came to Britain from the Commonwealth after the Second World War."
To be fair most non EU visitors have to complete landing cards on arrival - why would you keep landing cards from 50 plus years ago when milions are issued annually now?
It just highlights generally our generally lacklustre systems for proving entitlement to residency and entitlements for those who have no need for a passport. Almost every other EU nation has a national ID card for permanent residents and citizens - even Ireland now has a public services card which will soon be pretty well essential to access welfare, get a driving licence or a passport. Most EUs states also require you to register if you have been there for more than 3 months - even for Eu nationals.
This ridiculous situation would be less likely to occur - as we would have proper records and identity systems. Being asked to give evidence you paid National insurance for decades as your proof of entitlement to residency is just crazy!
Makes you wonder how accurate our population and migration estimates are - particularly when migration levels are based on extrapolations from surveys at airports conducted by someone with a clipboard. I doubt that has modernised much since the 1950s either!
Population estimates are done via the census. Any reason that we should doubt those figures? As for retaining landing cards. You can probably store 50 years worth of them on one hard drive. No excuse not to store them long term.
I’m totally fed up with the kind of abuse many of our MPs are getting. Whether that’s anti-Semitic, racist, misogynistic or just threats of violence.
Who’d be an MP?
Isn’t it time we cleaned up social media somehow? The anonymity encourages a small but vile minority to contaminate and polarise our entire political debate.
I’m sure the media now spend more time discussing the latest twitter outrage than any substantive policy issues.
It’s tearing us apart.
Social media was very much part of the debate and the mps anger towards it with many demanding action to stop the outrages
Good. I’ve no idea what the solution is and I hate the idea of controls on free speech but it seems we have invented a new kind of speech - mass but anonymous - with harmful side-effects that need addressing.
General consensus was it must be forced to comply with the same regulations for the print and broadcast industries
Just catching up on today’s events, that is absolutely shocking evidence of antisemitism from the Labour MPs.
Also, is that Tom Watson sitting between Luciana Berger and Ruth Smeeth on the back bench? What’s he going to do about the problem that’s infesting his own party?
Yes. Gesture of solidarity, I assume.
He also exemplifies the reverse tent strategy (it is better to be inside, pissing out) from Labour moderates
"Downing Street has defended the Home Office's decision to destroy landing cards recording the arrival of Windrush generation immigrants to the UK.
A spokesman for Prime Minister Theresa May said disposing of the documents was the right decision to take, amid a row over the immigration status of people who came to Britain from the Commonwealth after the Second World War."
To be fair most non EU visitors have to complete landing cards on arrival - why would you keep landing cards from 50 plus years ago when milions are issued annually now?
It just highlights generally our generally lacklustre systems for proving entitlement to residency and entitlements for those who have no need for a passport. Almost every other EU nation has a national ID card for permanent residents and citizens - even Ireland now has a public services card which will soon be pretty well essential to access welfare, get a driving licence or a passport. Most EUs states also require you to register if you have been there for more than 3 months - even for Eu nationals.
This ridiculous situation would be less likely to occur - as we would have proper records and identity systems. Being asked to give evidence you paid National insurance for decades as your proof of entitlement to residency is just crazy!
Makes you wonder how accurate our population and migration estimates are - particularly when migration levels are based on extrapolations from surveys at airports conducted by someone with a clipboard. I doubt that has modernised much since the 1950s either!
Population estimates are done via the census. Any reason that we should doubt those figures? As for retaining landing cards. You can probably store 50 years worth of them on one hard drive. No excuse not to store them long term.
Yes, the population estimates are rebased every 10 years. The England and Wales mid year estimate for 2011 was 56,170,900. The 2011 Census estimate was (I think) 56,075,916. So over 10 years the estimate - based on adding births/immigrants and subtracting deaths/emigrants - was out by around 100,000.
Just catching up on today’s events, that is absolutely shocking evidence of antisemitism from the Labour MPs.
Also, is that Tom Watson sitting between Luciana Berger and Ruth Smeeth on the back bench? What’s he going to do about the problem that’s infesting his own party?
Yes. Gesture of solidarity, I assume.
He also exemplifies the reverse tent strategy (it is better to be inside, pissing out) from Labour moderates
Quite. As the only front bencher not there at Corbyn’s pleasure, he needs to be front and centre at dealing with this. Especially given his reputation as a political bruiser, he’s probably well suited to the task. Not heard much from him on the subject though, and a bit of v****e s********g doesn’t really cut it.
Oh, and to pick up on earlier points about Diane Abbot, most of the the abuse she gets here is because she’s an innumerate hypocrite, not because she’s black or female.
'Population estimates are done via the census. Any reason that we should doubt those figures? As for retaining landing cards. You can probably store 50 years worth of them on one hard drive. No excuse not to store them long term.'
The census is done once a decade - annual population changes are measured by births deaths and migration data based on airport surveys and GP records, Huge extrapolations are based on a small sample of records, And the population data only measures usually resident people - short term migrants who indicate they plan to stay for less than a year aren't counted at all.
In calculating the London estimates for 2001 to 2010 the ONS data implied 60 per cent of all migrants to London lived in Westminster and Kensington and Chelsea which massively over inflated their populations and funding. All of a sudden post the 2011 census the ONS identified they had undercounted Newham's population by 70,000 or 25 per cent - a historic error which probably cost the local council tens of millions in grant from government.
Sorry I really don't have much confidence in the population estimates - not everyone resident is counted and relying on clipboard surveys at airports is not exactly robust. People's intentions change - and yes some people don't tell the truth.
I am sure the census count is fine in the Cotswolds - east London not so sure!
@brendan16 - It's some time since I worked on the Census, but I guess that assumptions used for 2001-2011 were based on previous experience. And I guess that things changed considerably in that decade. But this is why we need a Census - it's the only way to get reliable small area statistics.
Can anyone sum up what happened with Diane Abbott in the Commons this afternoon?
She blethered on about how she had a lot of Haredi jews in her constituency and refused to give way to a lot of angry MPs who wanted her to address the more general issues. Then said, I think, that website owners (or facebook? google?) should have real names and addresses for everybody. Looked thoroughly ill and confused.
"Downing Street has defended the Home Office's decision to destroy landing cards recording the arrival of Windrush generation immigrants to the UK.
A spokesman for Prime Minister Theresa May said disposing of the documents was the right decision to take, amid a row over the immigration status of people who came to Britain from the Commonwealth after the Second World War."
To be fair most non EU visitors have to complete landing cards on arrival - why would you keep landing cards from 50 plus years ago when milions are issued annually now?
It just highlights generally our generally lacklustre systems for proving entitlement to residency and entitlements for those who have no need for a passport. Almost every other EU nation has a national ID card for permanent residents and citizens - even Ireland now has a public services card which will soon be pretty well essential to access welfare, get a driving licence or a passport. Most EUs states also require you to register if you have been there for more than 3 months - even for Eu nationals.
This ridiculous situation would be less likely to occur - as we would have proper records and identity systems. Being asked to give evidence you paid National insurance for decades as your proof of entitlement to residency is just crazy!
Makes you wonder how accurate our population and migration estimates are - particularly when migration levels are based on extrapolations from surveys at airports conducted by someone with a clipboard. I doubt that has modernised much since the 1950s either!
Population estimates are done via the census. Any reason that we should doubt those figures? As for retaining landing cards. You can probably store 50 years worth of them on one hard drive. No excuse not to store them long term.
I'm pretty sure hard drives were not quite so accessible 50 years ago
Corbyn is probably not anti-Semitic himself, but he swims in anti-Semitic waters and he has opened up the Labour Party to far left, and hence often anti-Semitic, infiltration.
It beggars belief that even Chakrabarti’s useless report has not been enacted in full.
His failure to get to grips with it makes him morally culpable in my view. The history books will be damning.
I can't quite believe that he admitted there is a problem and then seems to dismiss it at every opportunity. It strikes me he only said it because he thought that it was what people needed to hear. His actions seem to betray his true opinion
Comments
RAPE AS A WEAPON OF WAR AND A TOOL OF POLITICAL REPRESSION
Opinion: Rape becomes a political tool in India
How did rape become a weapon of war?
It happens so often that the argument from unlikelihood doesn't really cut it.
But the real story is that Corbyn disdained from making the response, just sitting by Abbott and letting her take the flak. We can add cowardice to the many other negative descriptions of him
Criticising the Jewdas seder was a good litmus test for who was genuinely concerned about antisemitism, and who was disingenuously just using it as a stick to bash Corbyn with.
Luciana Berger for example did not (as far as I'm aware) say Corbyn should've met "mainstream Jews" rather than "bad Jews", because I trust that she actually is concerned about the issue itself, not least because of some of the vile abuse she herself has suffered.
On the other hand, Woodcock and a couple of others showed their real motives.
Cant see that ending well from a Labour point of view
(BTW, Labour are not alone on this; all parties have their blind spots about loonies in their midst on various topics. It's just in this case they loonies have taken over the asylum.)
Personally, Abbott has so many unimpressive outings, that far better for people to hear her words than to drown them out.
Similarly with Diane Abbott, I have seen some sexist and racist stuff about her online, but it doesn't mean that I am sexist or racist because I don't think she has a grasp on numbers - I would think the same of a white man who came out with the guff she does. In fact I do think that of almost the entire Corbyn brigade.
Then again, he was once banned from all the pubs in Staveley.
Apparently the Palestinians from the camps started erecting road blocks all around Beirut. As a reprisal the Christians stopped a Palestinian school bus and killed all 41 children on board and then reprisal followed reprisal. He then went on to tell me that I'll meet one of the people responsible for the atrocity on the bus. He's now part of their construction crew. When the war ended he said everyone just went back to work and that was that.
But a recession? Give us a break. I would be fairly confident that was rot even if it wasn’t by AEP.
The key is to reject those immediate prejudices if you act on it. You see a black man in a rural village and take a second glance. That isn't racism, it's natural reaction to seeing something unusual. It is racism if you refuse to serve him a drink, or cross the road.
If you see a man (white, black or a curious shade of asparagus) carrying a knife in the street, it isn't an -ism to cross the road.
Hopefully if you see enough cases that counter an instinctual prejudice, that prejudice dissipates.
(*) In this case the prejudices are possibly correct.
https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/986144351205187584
I'd put that defence from Hannon, as lampooned, as similar to some of Corbyn's faux reasonableness.
50 years ago my Dad was refused admission to a golf club because at that time Jews couldn't join golf clubs. That was anti Semitism. I went into a garage a few months ago and saw someone in the queue tell the Pakistani who was serving to 'go home'. That was racism. If Jeremy Corbyn's a racist I'm a Dutchman.
There have clearly been mistakes made in the handling of the Windrush children but fundamentally it’s about asking residents to prove their right to residency.
That is completely different to the debate ongoing at the moment
That's almost as good as Hattersley's infamous, 'When it comes to racism, I believe you should always call a spade a spade.'
Doesn't look even slightly surprising. This is a government that regularly attacks hospitals, schools and apartment blocks, with barrel-bombs, incendiary devices, cluster bombs, and chemical weapons. Torture and "disappearances" are routine.
Labour 2018
or those posters on here who refuse to believe what is happening
I then downgraded to near Staveley.
Your mate must have been a "Character" there are loads of pubs in Staveley.
I find Chesterfield has a small Town mentality
Still I am doing a bit of Ground hopping at Forest Green on Saturday and may well see Chesterfield relegated out of the football league for the first time ever.
The problem with any slowdown in the EZ is that we need strong growth elsewhere to boost exports and we are already having to cope with sterling at a higher level.
Let’s take Raed Salah: In 2013, Raed Salah was tried for incitement to violence and incitement to racism over his remarks in 2007 at Wadi Joz. He was convicted of incitement to violence by the Jerusalem Magistrates' Court, but initially acquitted of incitement to racism and sentenced to eight months in prison. Israeli prosecutors appealed Salah's acquittal on the racism charge to the Jerusalem District Court. The District Court overturned the earlier acquittal in November 2011, finding Salah guilty of incitement to racism for his 'blood libel' comments.
What were those comments at Wadi Joz?
According to reports, during a protest speech in the East Jerusalem neighborhood of Wadi al-Joz on February 16, 2007, Salah accused Jews of using children's blood to bake bread. Israeli newspapers at the time quoted him as saying:
“We [Muslims] have never allowed ourselves to knead [the dough for] the bread that breaks the fast in the holy month of Ramadan with children's blood. Whoever wants a more thorough explanation, let him ask what used to happen to some children in Europe, whose blood was mixed in with the dough of the [Jewish] holy bread.”
That references very explicitly the medieval blood libel against Jews.
Why Raed Salah? Because this is the man that Corbyn invited to Parliament saying that his is a voice which should be heard. Of all the Palestinians to invite he picks this one. It says something about his judgment.
And it says something about yours, Roger, that you should choose to dismiss this as trivial tosh. It is not. It has real consequences for Jews in this country because too many within the Labour party (and elsewhere) feel emboldened to attack Jews in nasty and unpleasant ways, in ways we thought had disappeared after WW2 and they apparently feel so emboldened because the Labour leader has spent so much of his career before he became leader associating with such people - so they think that there really isn’t anything very wrong with it.
Corbyn had a golden opportunity during this debate to prove his critics wrong, to show that he is militantly against racism directed at Jews, to set the tone, to set an example. He failed to take it.
I will not name the options, but expect a huge public reaction, Fracking is so "Last year", compared with this.
A bit unfair. I was once set to the Staveley brickworks to pick up a load of wet (i.e. unfired) bricks with which we could block off a culvert. Being a bit daft, i couldn't find the entrance ...
http://britishgut.org/about/
Contribute to the advancement of medical science (and learn what constitutes your own gut micobiome...).
Having said that , I stopped watching This Week and QT over two years ago.
A spokesman for Prime Minister Theresa May said disposing of the documents was the right decision to take, amid a row over the immigration status of people who came to Britain from the Commonwealth after the Second World War."
https://news.sky.com/story/downing-street-defends-home-office-decision-to-destroy-windrush-landing-cards-11335554
I am glad I didn't get in at the Winding Wheel on Thursday.
Some of my Socialist mates will be there though.
They have been asked to write 2 questions from which presumably the Beeb decide on most popular.
That being said: it is showing a very similar picture with economic confidence in the Eurozone down from close to 60 to perhaps 54 now. China, the US and the UK have shown similar - albeit smaller - drops, with China and the UK only just outside recession-zone at 52.
https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/80fc2f9b-cda5-45da-8193-48f508169696
I don't know whether you have ever read the Passover prayer book but in addition on to wishing upon the Egyptians the ten plagues there are examples of racism on every page. Every Jew who has ever attended a Passover Service (which is everyone) has recited the same race hate. It's baloney. I'm pretty sure none of us wish for the death of their first born.
Who’d be an MP?
Isn’t it time we cleaned up social media somehow? The anonymity encourages a small but vile minority to contaminate and polarise our entire political debate.
I’m sure the media now spend more time discussing the latest twitter outrage than any substantive policy issues.
It’s tearing us apart.
It just highlights generally our generally lacklustre systems for proving entitlement to residency and entitlements for those who have no need for a passport. Almost every other EU nation has a national ID card for permanent residents and citizens - even Ireland now has a public services card which will soon be pretty well essential to access welfare, get a driving licence or a passport. Most EUs states also require you to register if you have been there for more than 3 months - even for Eu nationals.
This ridiculous situation would be less likely to occur - as we would have proper records and identity systems. Being asked to give evidence you paid National insurance for decades as your proof of entitlement to residency is just crazy!
Makes you wonder how accurate our population and migration estimates are - particularly when migration levels are based on extrapolations from surveys at airports conducted by someone with a clipboard. I doubt that has modernised much since the 1950s either!
Corbyn is probably not anti-Semitic himself, but he swims in anti-Semitic waters and he has opened up the Labour Party to far left, and hence often anti-Semitic, infiltration.
It beggars belief that even Chakrabarti’s useless report has not been enacted in full.
His failure to get to grips with it makes him morally culpable in my view. The history books will be damning.
Also, is that Tom Watson sitting between Luciana Berger and Ruth Smeeth on the back bench? What’s he going to do about the problem that’s infesting his own party?
Oh, and to pick up on earlier points about Diane Abbot, most of the the abuse she gets here is because she’s an innumerate hypocrite, not because she’s black or female.
'Population estimates are done via the census. Any reason that we should doubt those figures? As for retaining landing cards. You can probably store 50 years worth of them on one hard drive. No excuse not to store them long term.'
The census is done once a decade - annual population changes are measured by births deaths and migration data based on airport surveys and GP records, Huge extrapolations are based on a small sample of records, And the population data only measures usually resident people - short term migrants who indicate they plan to stay for less than a year aren't counted at all.
In calculating the London estimates for 2001 to 2010 the ONS data implied 60 per cent of all migrants to London lived in Westminster and Kensington and Chelsea which massively over inflated their populations and funding. All of a sudden post the 2011 census the ONS identified they had undercounted Newham's population by 70,000 or 25 per cent - a historic error which probably cost the local council tens of millions in grant from government.
Sorry I really don't have much confidence in the population estimates - not everyone resident is counted and relying on clipboard surveys at airports is not exactly robust. People's intentions change - and yes some people don't tell the truth.
I am sure the census count is fine in the Cotswolds - east London not so sure!