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  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    ydoethur said:

    Tick, tock:


    "every year that Britain’s transition agreement lasts is a year that, demographically speaking, the country becomes more pro-Remain."

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/08/why-labours-new-brexit-stance-could-change-everything

    Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
    As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.

    Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
    Our "place at the top table" in the world has the recurring effect of fits of embarrassment so bad I want to hacksaw my own head off every 3 or 4 years when the current PM crawls up the fundament of the current POTUS to reaffirm the special relationship, and the one-off (I hope) opportunity to play a very special part in the killing of several hundred thousand inoffensive and non-combatant brown people. I would be very, very happy to see my country sidelined down to a position where it was level pegging with the Faroe Islands.
    We often get told that we "punch above our weight" which generally means getting pounded...
    As one of the 5 permanent UN Security Council Members and with the legacy of Empire for good or ill we will always be in the upper middle tier of world powers after the US, China and Russia
    LOL, we could not beat a carpet
    My goodness Malcolm, is something wrong? You either referred derogatorily to an independent Scotland or you announced that the UK is your country.

    *Looks north apprehensively for incoming ballistic turnip*
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited August 2017
    England are favourites at Headingley according to the £23.5 million bet so far on the match:

    England 2.04 / 2.08
    West Indies 2.92 / 2.94
    Draw 5.6 / 5.9

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/cricket/market/1.133436446
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Will she get to choose her own leaving date? Others may well wish to prepone it.

    One drawback of a Prime Minister preannouncing their departure date is usually reckoned to be a severe loss of authority. Evdiently that isn't a consideration this time round.

    Thank you for prepone. a word I have never heard of before.
    Prepone arrived, along with the verb "to do the needful" from India, via outsourcing.
    tyvm
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157
    AndyJS said:

    England are favourites at Headingley according to the £23.5 million bet so far on the match:

    England 2.04 / 2.08
    West Indies 2.92 / 2.94
    Draw 5.6 / 5.9

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/cricket/market/1.133436446

    So were Australia in 1981.

    Admittedly they had a stronger position than the West Indies do, but...
  • AndyJS said:

    England are favourites at Headingley according to the £23.5 million bet so far on the match:

    England 2.04 / 2.08
    West Indies 2.92 / 2.94
    Draw 5.6 / 5.9

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/cricket/market/1.133436446

    That has to be value on the West Indies.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,718
    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    ydoethur said:

    Tick, tock:


    "every year that Britain’s transition agreement lasts is a year that, demographically speaking, the country becomes more pro-Remain."

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/08/why-labours-new-brexit-stance-could-change-everything

    Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
    As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.

    Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
    Our "place at the top table" in the world has the recurring effect of fits of embarrassment so bad I want to hacksaw my own head off every 3 or 4 years when the current PM crawls up the fundament of the current POTUS to reaffirm the special relationship, and the one-off (I hope) opportunity to play a very special part in the killing of several hundred thousand inoffensive and non-combatant brown people. I would be very, very happy to see my country sidelined down to a position where it was level pegging with the Faroe Islands.
    We often get told that we "punch above our weight" which generally means getting pounded...
    As one of the 5 permanent UN Security Council Members and with the legacy of Empire for good or ill we will always be in the upper middle tier of world powers after the US, China and Russia
    LOL, we could not beat a carpet
    My goodness Malcolm, is something wrong? You either referred derogatorily to an independent Scotland or you announced that the UK is your country.

    *Looks north apprehensively for incoming ballistic turnip*
    ydoethur, unfortunately due to excess number of turnips up here we are still in shackles. Some day slavery will be abolished.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    AndyJS said:

    England are favourites at Headingley according to the £23.5 million bet so far on the match:

    England 2.04 / 2.08
    West Indies 2.92 / 2.94
    Draw 5.6 / 5.9

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/cricket/market/1.133436446

    That has to be value on the West Indies.
    Amazing odds considering England are 170 runs behind on first innings.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,919
    edited August 2017
    AndyJS said:

    AndyJS said:

    England are favourites at Headingley according to the £23.5 million bet so far on the match:

    England 2.04 / 2.08
    West Indies 2.92 / 2.94
    Draw 5.6 / 5.9

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/cricket/market/1.133436446

    That has to be value on the West Indies.
    Amazing odds considering England are 170 runs behind on first innings.
    WI out to 4.0 now !!!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157
    edited August 2017
    AndyJS said:

    AndyJS said:

    England are favourites at Headingley according to the £23.5 million bet so far on the match:

    England 2.04 / 2.08
    West Indies 2.92 / 2.94
    Draw 5.6 / 5.9

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/cricket/market/1.133436446

    That has to be value on the West Indies.
    Amazing odds considering England are 170 runs behind on first innings.
    Even better considering they have only five batsmen with Test centuries in their side - Cook, Root, Bairstow, Stokes and Moeen.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    I see that Sam, one of the shrewdest gamblers I have ever known, has been banned for some ridiculously trivial post.

    A pity. If it's that Sam, his comments on gambling were more perceptive and knowledgeable than mine could ever be.

    I treat PB as a betting website with added debate, not a political forum with gambling tips. I hope OGH will consider letting minor offenders back in eventually, especially gambling experts.

    Even MPs who say or do outrageous things are named but allowed back into the HoC after a period of 'disgrace'. Like this one ... what became of him, I wonder

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/82544.stm
    Parliament is not owned by an individual.
  • ydoethur said:

    AndyJS said:

    AndyJS said:

    England are favourites at Headingley according to the £23.5 million bet so far on the match:

    England 2.04 / 2.08
    West Indies 2.92 / 2.94
    Draw 5.6 / 5.9

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/cricket/market/1.133436446

    That has to be value on the West Indies.
    Amazing odds considering England are 170 runs behind on first innings.
    Even better considering they have only five batsmen with Test centuries in their side - Cook, Root, Bairstow, Stokes and Moeen.
    Six.

    You forget Broad's 169.
  • AndyJS said:

    AndyJS said:

    England are favourites at Headingley according to the £23.5 million bet so far on the match:

    England 2.04 / 2.08
    West Indies 2.92 / 2.94
    Draw 5.6 / 5.9

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/cricket/market/1.133436446

    That has to be value on the West Indies.
    Amazing odds considering England are 170 runs behind on first innings.
    Andy, I replied to your question about Channel 5's highlights on the previous thread.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,741
    edited August 2017
    Mortimer said:

    ...But I hope we can all grow up a bit soon, and move away from...wrongly auggesting Leavers are comparing the EU to Nazi Germany...

    The EU/Nazi Germany comparison does crop up. The discussion about whether references to "Dunkirk" (the Nolan film) were coded references to such, respect for the achievements of the combatants or simply the quality of the film itself are best left to another day. But if we limit ourselves to *explicit* comparisons, here is an example from November 2016:

    '...The current German agenda is to achieve by peaceful means via the EU what the militarism of the German imperialists and the brutality of the Nazis failed to achieve on a permanent basis, namely a Großdeutsches Reich from Brest (-Litewsk) to Brest (Llydaw).

    The majority of the British people didn't want to be ruled from Berlin in 1914 or 1939, and the Brexit vote was heavily influenced by those who remembered, or whose parents recalled, these previous eras...'

  • ydoethur said:

    AndyJS said:

    AndyJS said:

    England are favourites at Headingley according to the £23.5 million bet so far on the match:

    England 2.04 / 2.08
    West Indies 2.92 / 2.94
    Draw 5.6 / 5.9

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/cricket/market/1.133436446

    That has to be value on the West Indies.
    Amazing odds considering England are 170 runs behind on first innings.
    Even better considering they have only five batsmen with Test centuries in their side - Cook, Root, Bairstow, Stokes and Moeen.
    Six.

    You forget Broad's 169.
    Broad's batting has regressed even more than Darren Gough's did.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    ydoethur said:

    Tick, tock:


    "every year that Britain’s transition agreement lasts is a year that, demographically speaking, the country becomes more pro-Remain."

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/08/why-labours-new-brexit-stance-could-change-everything

    Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
    As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.

    Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
    Our "place at the top table" in the world has the recurring effect of fits of embarrassment so bad I want to hacksaw my own head off every 3 or 4 years when the current PM crawls up the fundament of the current POTUS to reaffirm the special relationship, and the one-off (I hope) opportunity to play a very special part in the killing of several hundred thousand inoffensive and non-combatant brown people. I would be very, very happy to see my country sidelined down to a position where it was level pegging with the Faroe Islands.
    We often get told that we "punch above our weight" which generally means getting pounded...
    As one of the 5 permanent UN Security Council Members and with the legacy of Empire for good or ill we will always be in the upper middle tier of world powers after the US, China and Russia
    LOL, we could not beat a carpet
    Tell that to Argentina
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682
    edited August 2017
    OchEye said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    ydoethur said:

    Tick, tock:


    "every year that Britain’s transition agreement lasts is a year that, demographically speaking, the country becomes more pro-Remain."

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/08/why-labours-new-brexit-stance-could-change-everything

    Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
    As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.

    Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
    Our "place at the top table" in the world has the recurring effect of fits of embarrassment so bad I want to hacksaw my own head off every 3 or 4 years when the current PM crawls up the fundament of the current POTUS to reaffirm the special relationship, and the one-off (I hope) opportunity to play a very special part in the killing of several hundred thousand inoffensive and non-combatant brown people. I would be very, very happy to see my country sidelined down to a position where it was level pegging with the Faroe Islands.
    We often get told that we "punch above our weight" which generally means getting pounded...
    As one of the 5 permanent UN Security Council Members and with the legacy of Empire for good or ill we will always be in the upper middle tier of world powers after the US, China and Russia
    According to different sources, there are a lot countries not happy with the permanent 5. France may well give up it's seat to the EU, while the UK's coat is on a very shooglie peg, we do not have a really independent nuclear deterrent while our armed forces are now, after 7 years of "austerity", cost cutting and reductions, is no more than a joke. 1930's anyone? All while the Russians and PRC are expanding their military.

    The US is now considered a Rogue State and a bully, Russia is being run by ex-KGB and crooks and the people are getting fed up with it, and with China, desperately trying to divert internal dissent by shows of outward nationalist militarism.
    I cannot see too much change, although Japan and India may eventually become permanent members (though Pakistan have blocked the latter before), Germany too if there is still no EU seat
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,741

    If Cameron had understood what he was doing he'd have taken the offer of associate membership and still be in office.

    It's not a bad point. Unfortunately the "associate membership" you speak of was not formally offered by anybody with the power to grant it, but was instead floated (was it Delors?). There is interesting scope for a counterfactual whereby somebody other than Juncker became Commission President and could take the situation seriously enough to put together a package that would work. But absent time travel, it will forever remain a might-have-been



  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157

    ydoethur said:

    AndyJS said:

    AndyJS said:

    England are favourites at Headingley according to the £23.5 million bet so far on the match:

    England 2.04 / 2.08
    West Indies 2.92 / 2.94
    Draw 5.6 / 5.9

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/cricket/market/1.133436446

    That has to be value on the West Indies.
    Amazing odds considering England are 170 runs behind on first innings.
    Even better considering they have only five batsmen with Test centuries in their side - Cook, Root, Bairstow, Stokes and Moeen.
    Six.

    You forget Broad's 169.
    Broad is a bowler.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,712
    edited August 2017
    viewcode said:

    If Cameron had understood what he was doing he'd have taken the offer of associate membership and still be in office.

    It's not a bad point. Unfortunately the "associate membership" you speak of was not formally offered by anybody with the power to grant it, but was instead floated (was it Delors?). There is interesting scope for a counterfactual whereby somebody other than Juncker became Commission President and could take the situation seriously enough to put together a package that would work. But absent time travel, it will forever remain a might-have-been



    Verhofstadt claimed he suggested it

    On the other hand Cameron didnt ask for it
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,741

    viewcode said:

    If Cameron had understood what he was doing he'd have taken the offer of associate membership and still be in office.

    It's not a bad point. Unfortunately the "associate membership" you speak of was not formally offered by anybody with the power to grant it, but was instead floated (was it Delors?). There is interesting scope for a counterfactual whereby somebody other than Juncker became Commission President and could take the situation seriously enough to put together a package that would work. But absent time travel, it will forever remain a might-have-been



    Verhofstadt claimed he suggested it

    On the other hand Cameron didnt ask for it
    Thank you.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,726
    malcolmg said:
    David Ross' original comments seem quite reasonable.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    HYUFD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    ydoethur said:

    Tick, tock:


    "every year that Britain’s transition agreement lasts is a year that, demographically speaking, the country becomes more pro-Remain."

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/08/why-labours-new-brexit-stance-could-change-everything

    Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
    As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.

    Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
    Our "place at the top table" in the world has the recurring effect of fits of embarrassment so bad I want to hacksaw my own head off every 3 or 4 years when the current PM crawls up the fundament of the current POTUS to reaffirm the special relationship, and the one-off (I hope) opportunity to play a very special part in the killing of several hundred thousand inoffensive and non-combatant brown people. I would be very, very happy to see my country sidelined down to a position where it was level pegging with the Faroe Islands.
    We often get told that we "punch above our weight" which generally means getting pounded...
    As one of the 5 permanent UN Security Council Members and with the legacy of Empire for good or ill we will always be in the upper middle tier of world powers after the US, China and Russia
    By implication you think we'll be level pegging with the EU. It's absurd.
    You misunderstand. Post Brexit, the Empire will have no need of the UN. Johnny Foreigner will resume their proper function of pretending to not understand English whilst flocking to us to offer up the riches of world.
    you need a holiday Mrs C
    Yes Mr Brooke - you may be correct.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    F1: entertaining race, but I am wondering if I accidentally offended a witch a few weeks ago.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    ydoethur said:

    Tick, tock:


    "every year that Britain’s transition agreement lasts is a year that, demographically speaking, the country becomes more pro-Remain."

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/08/why-labours-new-brexit-stance-could-change-everything

    Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
    As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.

    Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
    Our "place at the top table" in the world has the recurring effect of fits of embarrassment so bad I want to hacksaw my own head off every 3 or 4 years when the current PM crawls up the fundament of the current POTUS to reaffirm the special relationship, and the one-off (I hope) opportunity to play a very special part in the killing of several hundred thousand inoffensive and non-combatant brown people. I would be very, very happy to see my country sidelined down to a position where it was level pegging with the Faroe Islands.
    We often get told that we "punch above our weight" which generally means getting pounded...
    As one of the 5 permanent UN Security Council Members and with the legacy of Empire for good or ill we will always be in the upper middle tier of world powers after the US, China and Russia
    LOL, we could not beat a carpet
    Tell that to Argentina
    That is the spirit! Wave the flag of a conflict from 30 years ago and watch those Argies quakes in their boots!

    image
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    ydoethur said:

    Tick, tock:


    "every year that Britain’s transition agreement lasts is a year that, demographically speaking, the country becomes more pro-Remain."

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/08/why-labours-new-brexit-stance-could-change-everything

    Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
    As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.

    Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
    Our "place at the top table" in the world has the recurring effect of fits of embarrassment so bad I want to hacksaw my own head off every 3 or 4 years when the current PM crawls up the fundament of the current POTUS to reaffirm the special relationship, and the one-off (I hope) opportunity to play a very special part in the killing of several hundred thousand inoffensive and non-combatant brown people. I would be very, very happy to see my country sidelined down to a position where it was level pegging with the Faroe Islands.
    We often get told that we "punch above our weight" which generally means getting pounded...
    As one of the 5 permanent UN Security Council Members and with the legacy of Empire for good or ill we will always be in the upper middle tier of world powers after the US, China and Russia
    LOL, we could not beat a carpet
    Tell that to Argentina
    That is the spirit! Wave the flag of a conflict from 30 years ago
    35, actually
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,846

    viewcode said:

    If Cameron had understood what he was doing he'd have taken the offer of associate membership and still be in office.

    It's not a bad point. Unfortunately the "associate membership" you speak of was not formally offered by anybody with the power to grant it, but was instead floated (was it Delors?). There is interesting scope for a counterfactual whereby somebody other than Juncker became Commission President and could take the situation seriously enough to put together a package that would work. But absent time travel, it will forever remain a might-have-been
    Verhofstadt claimed he suggested it

    On the other hand Cameron didnt ask for it
    What would the content of such a status be? Defining it is no easier than negotiating a Brexit deal, which is probably why anyone serious dropped the idea before it got started.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,712

    viewcode said:

    If Cameron had understood what he was doing he'd have taken the offer of associate membership and still be in office.

    It's not a bad point. Unfortunately the "associate membership" you speak of was not formally offered by anybody with the power to grant it, but was instead floated (was it Delors?). There is interesting scope for a counterfactual whereby somebody other than Juncker became Commission President and could take the situation seriously enough to put together a package that would work. But absent time travel, it will forever remain a might-have-been
    Verhofstadt claimed he suggested it

    On the other hand Cameron didnt ask for it
    What would the content of such a status be? Defining it is no easier than negotiating a Brexit deal, which is probably why anyone serious dropped the idea before it got started.
    yes

    you tend to see our choices as full integration into the EU very quickly and full integration into the EU extremely quickly

    and yet a federalist like Verhofstadt can see differences in postions as have many other EU leaders over the years


  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,846

    and yet a federalist like Verhofstadt can see differences in postions as have many other EU leaders over the years

    The difference between me and Verhofstadt is that I care more about the interests of the UK. It may be in the EU's interests to have the UK in a semi-detached status, but it's not in ours.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,712

    and yet a federalist like Verhofstadt can see differences in postions as have many other EU leaders over the years

    The difference between me and Verhofstadt is that I care more about the interests of the UK. It may be in the EU's interests to have the UK in a semi-detached status, but it's not in ours.
    In your view

    but it's very much a unique view
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    ydoethur said:

    Tick, tock:


    "every year that Britain’s transition agreement lasts is a year that, demographically speaking, the country becomes more pro-Remain."

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/08/why-labours-new-brexit-stance-could-change-everything

    Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
    As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.

    Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
    Our "place at the top table" in the world has the recurring effect of fits of embarrassment so bad I want to hacksaw my own head off every 3 or 4 years when the current PM crawls up the fundament of the current POTUS to reaffirm the special relationship, and the one-off (I hope) opportunity to play a very special part in the killing of several hundred thousand inoffensive and non-combatant brown people. I would be very, very happy to see my country sidelined down to a position where it was level pegging with the Faroe Islands.
    We often get told that we "punch above our weight" which generally means getting pounded...
    As one of the 5 permanent UN Security Council Members and with the legacy of Empire for good or ill we will always be in the upper middle tier of world powers after the US, China and Russia
    LOL, we could not beat a carpet
    Tell that to Argentina
    That is the spirit! Wave the flag of a conflict from 30 years ago
    35, actually
    That just makes it 17% worse :D
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,846

    and yet a federalist like Verhofstadt can see differences in postions as have many other EU leaders over the years

    The difference between me and Verhofstadt is that I care more about the interests of the UK. It may be in the EU's interests to have the UK in a semi-detached status, but it's not in ours.
    In your view

    but it's very much a unique view
    It's sincere, and I couldn't wish for a better recruiting sergeant than having the Brexiteers test the alternative view to destruction.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,726

    and yet a federalist like Verhofstadt can see differences in postions as have many other EU leaders over the years

    The difference between me and Verhofstadt is that I care more about the interests of the UK. It may be in the EU's interests to have the UK in a semi-detached status, but it's not in ours.
    You care so much for the UK that you wish its existence to end.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,240
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    If Cameron had understood what he was doing he'd have taken the offer of associate membership and still be in office.

    It's not a bad point. Unfortunately the "associate membership" you speak of was not formally offered by anybody with the power to grant it, but was instead floated (was it Delors?). There is interesting scope for a counterfactual whereby somebody other than Juncker became Commission President and could take the situation seriously enough to put together a package that would work. But absent time travel, it will forever remain a might-have-been



    Verhofstadt claimed he suggested it

    On the other hand Cameron didnt ask for it
    Thank you.
    Juncker suggested it - he is quoted as such. Cameron, complacent arrogant internationalist lardbucket that he was, thought it would be much better if he could use the prospect of leaving along with his own questionable charisma to get the UK to accept the status quo forever.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,712

    and yet a federalist like Verhofstadt can see differences in postions as have many other EU leaders over the years

    The difference between me and Verhofstadt is that I care more about the interests of the UK. It may be in the EU's interests to have the UK in a semi-detached status, but it's not in ours.
    In your view

    but it's very much a unique view
    It's sincere, and I couldn't wish for a better recruiting sergeant than having the Brexiteers test the alternative view to destruction.
    Who are you recruiting ?

    Here's Cara Delevigne in a bikini

    http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/2017/08/26/01002-20170826LIVWWW00033-en-direct-le-live-politique-du-week-end-des-26-et-27-aout-2017.php

    more people will look at that post than all of yours put together

    get real you are a blogger on a wonk blog and from what I can see few people on this blog have changed their views since June last year

    so while your views are honest and sincerely held, thyre not infectious

  • ydoethur said:

    AndyJS said:

    AndyJS said:

    England are favourites at Headingley according to the £23.5 million bet so far on the match:

    England 2.04 / 2.08
    West Indies 2.92 / 2.94
    Draw 5.6 / 5.9

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/cricket/market/1.133436446

    That has to be value on the West Indies.
    Amazing odds considering England are 170 runs behind on first innings.
    Even better considering they have only five batsmen with Test centuries in their side - Cook, Root, Bairstow, Stokes and Moeen.
    Six.

    You forget Broad's 169.
    Broad's batting has regressed even more than Darren Gough's did.
    Broad got hit on the helmet with a bouncer.

    Since then he has lost confidence in his batting.

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    AndyJS said:

    AndyJS said:

    England are favourites at Headingley according to the £23.5 million bet so far on the match:

    England 2.04 / 2.08
    West Indies 2.92 / 2.94
    Draw 5.6 / 5.9

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/cricket/market/1.133436446

    That has to be value on the West Indies.
    Amazing odds considering England are 170 runs behind on first innings.
    Andy, I replied to your question about Channel 5's highlights on the previous thread.
    Thanks, I'll have a look.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,718
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    ydoethur said:

    Tick, tock:


    "every year that Britain’s transition agreement lasts is a year that, demographically speaking, the country becomes more pro-Remain."

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/08/why-labours-new-brexit-stance-could-change-everything

    Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
    As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.

    Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
    Our "place at the top table" in the world has the recurring effect of fits of embarrassment so bad I want to hacksaw my own head off every 3 or 4 years when the current PM crawls up the fundament of the current POTUS to reaffirm the special relationship, and the one-off (I hope) opportunity to play a very special part in the killing of several hundred thousand inoffensive and non-combatant brown people. I would be very, very happy to see my country sidelined down to a position where it was level pegging with the Faroe Islands.
    We often get told that we "punch above our weight" which generally means getting pounded...
    As one of the 5 permanent UN Security Council Members and with the legacy of Empire for good or ill we will always be in the upper middle tier of world powers after the US, China and Russia
    LOL, we could not beat a carpet
    Tell that to Argentina
    30 years ago and we just squeaked it and no more against a 4th rate army. Pretty dire when that is your only victory since we assisted in WWII.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,718
    Sean_F said:

    malcolmg said:
    David Ross' original comments seem quite reasonable.
    chock full of racists and sectarians, assisted ably by the big windbag Colonel, what a shower.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    F1: Raikkonen has 3 penalty points for ignoring yellow flags.

    Apparently, Perez has 0 for his little fracas.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693

    and yet a federalist like Verhofstadt can see differences in postions as have many other EU leaders over the years

    The difference between me and Verhofstadt is that I care more about the interests of the UK. It may be in the EU's interests to have the UK in a semi-detached status, but it's not in ours.
    In your view

    but it's very much a unique view
    It's sincere, and I couldn't wish for a better recruiting sergeant than having the Brexiteers test the alternative view to destruction.
    Who are you recruiting ?

    Here's Cara Delevigne in a bikini

    http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/2017/08/26/01002-20170826LIVWWW00033-en-direct-le-live-politique-du-week-end-des-26-et-27-aout-2017.php

    more people will look at that post than all of yours put together

    get real you are a blogger on a wonk blog and from what I can see few people on this blog have changed their views since June last year

    so while your views are honest and sincerely held, thyre not infectious

    Is Cara Delevigne infectious?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Nice to hear Ray Illingworth being interviewed by Jonathan Agnew during the Test Match Special tea break. 85 now.
  • WinstanleyWinstanley Posts: 434
    viewcode said:

    Mortimer said:

    ...But I hope we can all grow up a bit soon, and move away from...wrongly auggesting Leavers are comparing the EU to Nazi Germany...

    The EU/Nazi Germany comparison does crop up. The discussion about whether references to "Dunkirk" (the Nolan film) were coded references to such, respect for the achievements of the combatants or simply the quality of the film itself are best left to another day. But if we limit ourselves to *explicit* comparisons, here is an example from November 2016:

    '...The current German agenda is to achieve by peaceful means via the EU what the militarism of the German imperialists and the brutality of the Nazis failed to achieve on a permanent basis, namely a Großdeutsches Reich from Brest (-Litewsk) to Brest (Llydaw).

    The majority of the British people didn't want to be ruled from Berlin in 1914 or 1939, and the Brexit vote was heavily influenced by those who remembered, or whose parents recalled, these previous eras...'

    There were also these:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/14/boris-johnson-the-eu-wants-a-superstate-just-as-hitler-did/

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/15/boris-johnson-likens-eu-to-nazi-superstate

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/15/brexit-tories-back-boris-johnson-saying-his-eunazi-germany-compa/

    That was the most depressing time of the EU referendum by far, 'if we stay = Nazi superstate', 'if we leave = WW3' (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brexit-could-trigger-world-war-7928607).
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,520

    F1: Raikkonen has 3 penalty points for ignoring yellow flags.

    Apparently, Perez has 0 for his little fracas.

    Raikkonnen didn’t lift at all at 190mph when there were double waved yellows and marshals on the track - not surprised he got the book thrown at him.

    Did you back Perez to finish or to be classified? He was classified but didn’t finish.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    ydoethur said:

    Tick, tock:


    "every year that Britain’s transition agreement lasts is a year that, demographically speaking, the country becomes more pro-Remain."

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/08/why-labours-new-brexit-stance-could-change-everything

    Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
    As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.

    Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
    Our "place at the top table" in the world has the recurring effect of fits of embarrassment so bad I want to hacksaw my own head off every 3 or 4 years when the current PM crawls up the fundament of the current POTUS to reaffirm the special relationship, and the one-off (I hope) opportunity to play a very special part in the killing of several hundred thousand inoffensive and non-combatant brown people. I would be very, very happy to see my country sidelined down to a position where it was level pegging with the Faroe Islands.
    We often get told that we "punch above our weight" which generally means getting pounded...
    As one of the 5 permanent UN Security Council Members and with the legacy of Empire for good or ill we will always be in the upper middle tier of world powers after the US, China and Russia
    LOL, we could not beat a carpet
    Tell that to Argentina
    That is the spirit! Wave the flag of a conflict from 30 years ago and watch those Argies quakes in their boots!

    image
    Well it is the last war the UK has fought alone
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. Sandpit, neither. Backed Force India to double score at 2.2.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,635
    Tom Westley off the plane surely.
    Back to Ballance ?
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    ydoethur said:

    Tick, tock:


    "every year that Britain’s transition agreement lasts is a year that, demographically speaking, the country becomes more pro-Remain."

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/08/why-labours-new-brexit-stance-could-change-everything

    Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
    As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.

    Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
    Our "place at the top table" in the world has the recurring effect of fits of embarrassment so bad I want to hacksaw my own head off every 3 or 4 years when the current PM crawls up the fundament of the current POTUS to reaffirm the special relationship, and the one-off (I hope) opportunity to play a very special part in the killing of several hundred thousand inoffensive and non-combatant brown people. I would be very, very happy to see my country sidelined down to a position where it was level pegging with the Faroe Islands.
    We often get told that we "punch above our weight" which generally means getting pounded...
    As one of the 5 permanent UN Security Council Members and with the legacy of Empire for good or ill we will always be in the upper middle tier of world powers after the US, China and Russia
    LOL, we could not beat a carpet
    Tell that to Argentina
    That is the spirit! Wave the flag of a conflict from 30 years ago and watch those Argies quakes in their boots!

    image
    Well it is the last war the UK has fought alone
    Since PB is the home of pedantry and pickiness, I must point out the following:

    1) It was not a war, it was a conflict. We never formally declared war on Argentina

    2) The US supplied us with satellite intelligence, missiles and also made sure that we had adequate supplies of fuel (because we did not when we started out)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,879

    and yet a federalist like Verhofstadt can see differences in postions as have many other EU leaders over the years

    The difference between me and Verhofstadt is that I care more about the interests of the UK. It may be in the EU's interests to have the UK in a semi-detached status, but it's not in ours.
    In your view

    but it's very much a unique view
    It's sincere, and I couldn't wish for a better recruiting sergeant than having the Brexiteers test the alternative view to destruction.
    Who are you recruiting ?

    Here's Cara Delevigne in a bikini

    http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/2017/08/26/01002-20170826LIVWWW00033-en-direct-le-live-politique-du-week-end-des-26-et-27-aout-2017.php

    more people will look at that post than all of yours put together

    get real you are a blogger on a wonk blog and from what I can see few people on this blog have changed their views since June last year

    so while your views are honest and sincerely held, thyre not infectious

    You cheat! There's no Cara Delevigne in a bikini in that link.
  • Wenger Out, Wenger Out, Wenger Out.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,879

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Tick, tock:


    "every year that Britain’s transition agreement lasts is a year that, demographically speaking, the country becomes more pro-Remain."

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/08/why-labours-new-brexit-stance-could-change-everything

    Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
    As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.

    Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
    We may rejoin the EEA and join EFTA in a decade or two, after a few years of falling immigration, I cannot see us ever rejoining the EU now especially if that requires joining the Eurozone
    If Cameron had understood what he was doing he'd have taken the offer of associate membership and still be in office

    His career will be an interesting one to write up, so much promise and so little delivered.
    I don't think Associate Membership was ever actually on offer. It was what I proposed that Cameron went for: that he gathered together all the EU countries who weren't that keen on the political part of the EU (Sweden, Denmark, Poland, possibly Finland), and formed a grouping with them. There would be a common set of goals of this group, in particular to recognise that there was a contradiction between the need of the Eurozone to integrate further, and a need of the rest to resist that.

    I always thought that was room for a compromise position, where there would be a series of Associate Members with their own set of rules, and who were part of the Common Market, but only the Common Market.

    But David Cameron decided to go for a quick deal and a quick referendum, and to avoid a negotiation process that would have lasted years (bringing together the four or five countries that might become Associate Members would have been non trivial in itself). And we all know the consequence of that.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,879
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    ydoethur said:

    Tick, tock:


    "every year that Britain’s transition agreement lasts is a year that, demographically speaking, the country becomes more pro-Remain."

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/08/why-labours-new-brexit-stance-could-change-everything

    Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
    As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.

    Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
    Our "place at the top table" in the world has the recurring effect of fits of embarrassment so bad I want to hacksaw my own head off every 3 or 4 years when the current PM crawls up the fundament of the current POTUS to reaffirm the special relationship, and the one-off (I hope) opportunity to play a very special part in the killing of several hundred thousand inoffensive and non-combatant brown people. I would be very, very happy to see my country sidelined down to a position where it was level pegging with the Faroe Islands.
    We often get told that we "punch above our weight" which generally means getting pounded...
    As one of the 5 permanent UN Security Council Members and with the legacy of Empire for good or ill we will always be in the upper middle tier of world powers after the US, China and Russia
    LOL, we could not beat a carpet
    Tell that to Argentina
    That is the spirit! Wave the flag of a conflict from 30 years ago and watch those Argies quakes in their boots!

    image
    Well it is the last war the UK has fought alone
    Conflict, I believe, not war.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    ydoethur said:

    Tick, tock:


    "every year that Britain’s transition agreement lasts is a year that, demographically speaking, the country becomes more pro-Remain."

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/08/why-labours-new-brexit-stance-could-change-everything

    Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
    As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.

    Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
    Our "place at the top table" in the world has the recurring effect of fits of embarrassment so bad I want to hacksaw my own head off every 3 or 4 years when the current PM crawls up the fundament of the current POTUS to reaffirm the special relationship, and the one-off (I hope) opportunity to play a very special part in the killing of several hundred thousand inoffensive and non-combatant brown people. I would be very, very happy to see my country sidelined down to a position where it was level pegging with the Faroe Islands.
    We often get told that we "punch above our weight" which generally means getting pounded...
    As one of the 5 permanent UN Security Council Members and with the legacy of Empire for good or ill we will always be in the upper middle tier of world powers after the US, China and Russia
    LOL, we could not beat a carpet
    Tell that to Argentina
    That is the spirit! Wave the flag of a conflict from 30 years ago and watch those Argies quakes in their boots!

    image
    Well it is the last war the UK has fought alone
    Since PB is the home of pedantry and pickiness, I must point out the following:

    1) It was not a war, it was a conflict. We never formally declared war on Argentina

    2) The US supplied us with satellite intelligence, missiles and also made sure that we had adequate supplies of fuel (because we did not when we started out)

    Whilst the French supplied the Argentina regime with Excocet missiles.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,846
    rcs1000 said:

    But David Cameron decided to go for a quick deal and a quick referendum, and to avoid a negotiation process that would have lasted years (bringing together the four or five countries that might become Associate Members would have been non trivial in itself). And we all know the consequence of that.

    I wonder how many Leave voters realised they were really voting against the idea of a two-speed Europe, and what the ultimate result of that would be.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,846

    Whilst the French supplied the Argentina regime with Excocet missiles.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1387576/How-France-helped-us-win-Falklands-war-by-John-Nott.html

    FRANCE was Britain's greatest ally during the Falklands war, providing secret information to enable MI6 agents to sabotage Exocet missiles which were desperately sought by Argentina, according to Sir John Nott, who was Defence Secretary during the conflict.

    In his memoirs he reveals that while President Reagan was pressurising Lady Thatcher to accept a negotiated settlement France helped Britain to win the conflict.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,240

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    ydoethur said:

    Tick, tock:


    "every year that Britain’s transition agreement lasts is a year that, demographically speaking, the country becomes more pro-Remain."

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/08/why-labours-new-brexit-stance-could-change-everything

    Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
    As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.

    Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
    Our "place at the top table" in the world has the recurring effect of fits of embarrassment so bad I want to hacksaw my own head off every 3 or 4 years when the current PM crawls up the fundament of the current POTUS to reaffirm the special relationship, and the one-off (I hope) opportunity to play a very special part in the killing of several hundred thousand inoffensive and non-combatant brown people. I would be very, very happy to see my country sidelined down to a position where it was level pegging with the Faroe Islands.
    We often get told that we "punch above our weight" which generally means getting pounded...
    As one of the 5 permanent UN Security Council Members and with the legacy of Empire for good or ill we will always be in the upper middle tier of world powers after the US, China and Russia
    LOL, we could not beat a carpet
    Tell that to Argentina
    That is the spirit! Wave the flag of a conflict from 30 years ago and watch those Argies quakes in their boots!

    image
    Well it is the last war the UK has fought alone
    Since PB is the home of pedantry and pickiness, I must point out the following:

    1) It was not a war, it was a conflict. We never formally declared war on Argentina

    2) The US supplied us with satellite intelligence, missiles and also made sure that we had adequate supplies of fuel (because we did not when we started out)
    Oh, did we get the missiles free? Uncharacteristically generous of Uncle Sam.
  • viewcode said:

    If Cameron had understood what he was doing he'd have taken the offer of associate membership and still be in office.

    It's not a bad point. Unfortunately the "associate membership" you speak of was not formally offered by anybody with the power to grant it, but was instead floated (was it Delors?). There is interesting scope for a counterfactual whereby somebody other than Juncker became Commission President and could take the situation seriously enough to put together a package that would work. But absent time travel, it will forever remain a might-have-been



    Verhofstadt claimed he suggested it

    On the other hand Cameron didnt ask for it
    It wasn't in Verhofstadt's gift to offer it.
  • Whilst the French supplied the Argentina regime with Excocet missiles.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1387576/How-France-helped-us-win-Falklands-war-by-John-Nott.html

    FRANCE was Britain's greatest ally during the Falklands war, providing secret information to enable MI6 agents to sabotage Exocet missiles which were desperately sought by Argentina, according to Sir John Nott, who was Defence Secretary during the conflict.

    In his memoirs he reveals that while President Reagan was pressurising Lady Thatcher to accept a negotiated settlement France helped Britain to win the conflict.
    France followed its own interests, which required the Falklands to be recovered.

    Because if they weren't then there was nothing to stop all those French overseas territories being seized by other countries.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,846

    Whilst the French supplied the Argentina regime with Excocet missiles.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1387576/How-France-helped-us-win-Falklands-war-by-John-Nott.html

    FRANCE was Britain's greatest ally during the Falklands war, providing secret information to enable MI6 agents to sabotage Exocet missiles which were desperately sought by Argentina, according to Sir John Nott, who was Defence Secretary during the conflict.

    In his memoirs he reveals that while President Reagan was pressurising Lady Thatcher to accept a negotiated settlement France helped Britain to win the conflict.
    France followed its own interests, which required the Falklands to be recovered.

    Because if they weren't then there was nothing to stop all those French overseas territories being seized by other countries.
    It just goes to show how closely aligned the interests of Old Europe are. Almost worth formalising it in some kind of political union to make our voice carry more weight.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,879



    Whilst the French supplied the Argentina regime with Excocet missiles.

    Didn't the French stop supplying the Argentinians with weapons after invasion, much to the anger of the Junta? My understanding is that Thatcher and Mitterrand reached agreement early on, and he stood up to the entire French establishment.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,712
    rcs1000 said:



    Whilst the French supplied the Argentina regime with Excocet missiles.

    Didn't the French stop supplying the Argentinians with weapons after invasion, much to the anger of the Junta? My understanding is that Thatcher and Mitterrand reached agreement early on, and he stood up to the entire French establishment.
    I'm eating a delicious brown bread with pumpkin seeds
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,521
    I said Rex Tillerson wouldn't last 12 months.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,846
    rcs1000 said:



    Whilst the French supplied the Argentina regime with Excocet missiles.

    Didn't the French stop supplying the Argentinians with weapons after invasion, much to the anger of the Junta? My understanding is that Thatcher and Mitterrand reached agreement early on, and he stood up to the entire French establishment.
    That Telegraph article has some further details:

    "In so many ways Mitterrand and the French were our greatest allies," Sir John says. As soon as the conflict began, France made available to Britain Super-Etendard and Mirage aircraft - which it had supplied to Argentina - so Harrier pilots could train against them.

    The French gave Britain information on the Exocet - which sank the Sheffield and Atlantic Conveyor - showing how to tamper with it.

    "A remarkable worldwide operation then ensued to prevent further Exocets being bought by Argentina," Sir John says.

    "I authorised our agents to pose as bona fide purchasers of equipment on the international market, ensuring that we outbid the Argentinians, and other agents identified Exocet missiles in markets and rendered them inoperable."

    He contrasts the French attitude with America's attempts to find a face-saving deal for President Galtieri, the Argentine dictator."For all Margaret Thatcher's friendship with Ronald Reagan, he remained a West Coast American looking south to Latin America and west to the Pacific. Sometimes I wondered if he even knew or cared where Europe was."
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,367
    Mr Brooke,

    "more people will look at that post than all of yours put together."

    I certainly looked but couldn't find the picture. And let's honest, more people will look at Cara dev-wotsit dressed than read Mr Glenn's posts.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,402
    rcs1000 said:



    Whilst the French supplied the Argentina regime with Excocet missiles.

    Didn't the French stop supplying the Argentinians with weapons after invasion, much to the anger of the Junta? My understanding is that Thatcher and Mitterrand reached agreement early on, and he stood up to the entire French establishment.
    The French were very cooperative at the governmental level. Aerospatiale, the supplier of Exocet, however fixed a problem that the Argentinians had with the launcher and so enabled them to be used, contrary to the agreement the French had with the British not to help the Argentinians. It wasn't clear whether the French government was genuinely embarrassed by this or there was a degree of collusion.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,712
    CD13 said:

    Mr Brooke,

    "more people will look at that post than all of yours put together."

    I certainly looked but couldn't find the picture. And let's honest, more people will look at Cara dev-wotsit dressed than read Mr Glenn's posts.




    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-4826500/Swimsuit-clad-Cara-Poppy-Delevingne-party-St-Tropez.html
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,521
    Kier Starmer is clear favourite to be leader on BF's market at moment. 7. Nearest 2nd is Thornberry on 11.
  • Wenger Out, Wenger Out, Wenger Out.

    Wenger is French.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,846

    CD13 said:

    Mr Brooke,

    "more people will look at that post than all of yours put together."

    I certainly looked but couldn't find the picture. And let's honest, more people will look at Cara dev-wotsit dressed than read Mr Glenn's posts.


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-4826500/Swimsuit-clad-Cara-Poppy-Delevingne-party-St-Tropez.html
    Your original link fail was positively Freudian, instead directing people to Emmanual Macron in a flight suit.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761

    Kier Starmer is clear favourite to be leader on BF's market at moment. 7. Nearest 2nd is Thornberry on 11.

    KSICWNBLL
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,712

    CD13 said:

    Mr Brooke,

    "more people will look at that post than all of yours put together."

    I certainly looked but couldn't find the picture. And let's honest, more people will look at Cara dev-wotsit dressed than read Mr Glenn's posts.


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-4826500/Swimsuit-clad-Cara-Poppy-Delevingne-party-St-Tropez.html
    Your original link fail was positively Freudian, instead directing people to Emmanual Macron in a flight suit.
    it was very European

    the germans are laughing at him
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,521

    Kier Starmer is clear favourite to be leader on BF's market at moment. 7. Nearest 2nd is Thornberry on 11.

    KSICWNBLL
    You'll be laying him then?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,741

    Whilst the French supplied the Argentina regime with Excocet missiles.

    ...and here we go again. The French supplied Argentina with Exocets and aircraft (Super Etandards & Mirages), and they were used to sink British ships. The Americans supplied Argentina with bombs and aircraft (Skyhawks) and ships (eg the General Belgrano used to be the USS Phoenix), and they were used to sink British ships. Even the British supplied Argentina with bombs and ships (Veinticinco de Mayo, Hércules, Santísima Trinidad)...but you get the point.

    All of these helped us during the war; the French stopped selling missiles to the Argentinians and the Anericans (after some convincing, which is why Casper Weinberger got a honorary knighthood) came down on our side. If memory serves, the Australians also offered help but it was too far away, and Chile also helped. Oddly enough, one of the nations to vote against the UK in the UN was (IIRC) Ireland, but my copy of Hastings's Battle For The Falklands is in my digs and I can't check.

    But if that doesn't convince you, try this

    '...I was particularly grateful to President Mitterrand, who with the leaders of the Old Commonwealth, was among the staunchest of our friends and who telephoned me personally to pledge support on Saturday [3 April 1982]. (I was to have many disputes with President Mitterrand in later years, but I never forgot the debt we owed him for his personal support on this occasion and throughout the Falklands crisis). France used her influence in the UN to swing others in our favour...", Margaret Thatcher, The Downing Street Years (1993)
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761

    Kier Starmer is clear favourite to be leader on BF's market at moment. 7. Nearest 2nd is Thornberry on 11.

    KSICWNBLL
    You'll be laying him then?
    KS only has a chance in a PLP only vote.

    He is the most boring politician i can remember. He makes Gordon Brown look like Mr personality.

    If he becomes the PLP poster boy he may come in from 7/1 so trading bet?? but IMO the membership would like him as much as Leicester Liz (Ms 4%)

    He has zero chance of winning under the current Labour rules A bit of Blairite Gerrymandering with the system his chances improve.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761
    SL vs India bottle hurling stopped play with India requiring 8 from 6 overs
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761
    22:03 Local Time, 16:33 GMT, 22:03 IST: Some announcements are being made through the PA system, but it doesn't seem to be helping too much.
    21:58 Local Time, 16:28 GMT, 21:58 IST: Oh dear, there's some bottling going on by the Sri Lankan spectators, clearly agitated by the team's performance. It's very reminiscent of Cuttack in 2015, when India played South Africa. Not good business - holding the match hostage like this. The players and umpires have gathered towards the pitch, waiting for the situation to be brought under control. That's the best they can do.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,140
    viewcode said:

    Whilst the French supplied the Argentina regime with Excocet missiles.

    ...and here we go again. The French supplied Argentina with Exocets and aircraft (Super Etandards & Mirages), and they were used to sink British ships. The Americans supplied Argentina with bombs and aircraft (Skyhawks) and ships (eg the General Belgrano used to be the USS Phoenix), and they were used to sink British ships. Even the British supplied Argentina with bombs and ships (Veinticinco de Mayo, Hércules, Santísima Trinidad)...but you get the point.

    (snip)
    Didn't the French also provide intel as to how to disable their missiles? Or am I misremembering... it would probably be a terrible idea from a business perspective!
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761
    Ok, so there are silly people everywhere. But we need to get a move on. Security just watching people throw bottles. Doing nothing.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    I see Corbyn is contemplating the end of Scots Law.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,140
    Alistair said:

    I see Corbyn is contemplating the end of Scots Law.

    Things are looking up for the SNP!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157
    edited August 2017
    viewcode said:

    Whilst the French supplied the Argentina regime with Excocet missiles.

    ...and here we go again. The French supplied Argentina with Exocets and aircraft (Super Etandards & Mirages), and they were used to sink British ships. The Americans supplied Argentina with bombs and aircraft (Skyhawks) and ships (eg the General Belgrano used to be the USS Phoenix), and they were used to sink British ships. Even the British supplied Argentina with bombs and ships (Veinticinco de Mayo, Hércules, Santísima Trinidad)...but you get the point.

    All of these helped us during the war; the French stopped selling missiles to the Argentinians and the Anericans (after some convincing, which is why Casper Weinberger got a honorary knighthood) came down on our side. If memory serves, the Australians also offered help but it was too far away, and Chile also helped. Oddly enough, one of the nations to vote against the UK in the UN was (IIRC) Ireland, but my copy of Hastings's Battle For The Falklands is in my digs and I can't check.

    But if that doesn't convince you, try this

    '...I was particularly grateful to President Mitterrand, who with the leaders of the Old Commonwealth, was among the staunchest of our friends and who telephoned me personally to pledge support on Saturday [3 April 1982]. (I was to have many disputes with President Mitterrand in later years, but I never forgot the debt we owed him for his personal support on this occasion and throughout the Falklands crisis). France used her influence in the UN to swing others in our favour...", Margaret Thatcher, The Downing Street Years (1993)
    No, Ireland voted in favour, because they are big on self-determination. Spain voted against.

    Then ten votes in favour of Britain's resolution 502 were UK, US, France, Ireland, Guyana, Togo, Zaire, Japan, Uganda and - after a major wobble where they backed both sides - Jordan.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,741
    RobD said:

    viewcode said:

    Whilst the French supplied the Argentina regime with Excocet missiles.

    ...and here we go again. The French supplied Argentina with Exocets and aircraft (Super Etandards & Mirages), and they were used to sink British ships. The Americans supplied Argentina with bombs and aircraft (Skyhawks) and ships (eg the General Belgrano used to be the USS Phoenix), and they were used to sink British ships. Even the British supplied Argentina with bombs and ships (Veinticinco de Mayo, Hércules, Santísima Trinidad)...but you get the point.

    (snip)
    Didn't the French also provide intel as to how to disable their missiles? Or am I misremembering... it would probably be a terrible idea from a business perspective!
    I don't know: apols.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,741
    ydoethur said:

    viewcode said:

    Whilst the French supplied the Argentina regime with Excocet missiles.

    ...and here we go again. The French supplied Argentina with Exocets and aircraft (Super Etandards & Mirages), and they were used to sink British ships. The Americans supplied Argentina with bombs and aircraft (Skyhawks) and ships (eg the General Belgrano used to be the USS Phoenix), and they were used to sink British ships. Even the British supplied Argentina with bombs and ships (Veinticinco de Mayo, Hércules, Santísima Trinidad)...but you get the point.

    All of these helped us during the war; the French stopped selling missiles to the Argentinians and the Anericans (after some convincing, which is why Casper Weinberger got a honorary knighthood) came down on our side. If memory serves, the Australians also offered help but it was too far away, and Chile also helped. Oddly enough, one of the nations to vote against the UK in the UN was (IIRC) Ireland, but my copy of Hastings's Battle For The Falklands is in my digs and I can't check.

    But if that doesn't convince you, try this

    '...I was particularly grateful to President Mitterrand, who with the leaders of the Old Commonwealth, was among the staunchest of our friends and who telephoned me personally to pledge support on Saturday [3 April 1982]. (I was to have many disputes with President Mitterrand in later years, but I never forgot the debt we owed him for his personal support on this occasion and throughout the Falklands crisis). France used her influence in the UN to swing others in our favour...", Margaret Thatcher, The Downing Street Years (1993)
    No, Ireland voted in favour, because they are big on self-determination. Spain voted against.

    Then ten votes in favour of Britain's resolution 502 were UK, US, France, Ireland, Guyana, Togo, Zaire, Japan, Uganda and - after a major wobble where they backed both sides - Jordan.
    Thank you.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157
    viewcode said:

    ydoethur said:

    viewcode said:

    Whilst the French supplied the Argentina regime with Excocet missiles.

    ...and here we go again. The French supplied Argentina with Exocets and aircraft (Super Etandards & Mirages), and they were used to sink British ships. The Americans supplied Argentina with bombs and aircraft (Skyhawks) and ships (eg the General Belgrano used to be the USS Phoenix), and they were used to sink British ships. Even the British supplied Argentina with bombs and ships (Veinticinco de Mayo, Hércules, Santísima Trinidad)...but you get the point.

    All of these helped us during the war; the French stopped selling missiles to the Argentinians and the Anericans (after some convincing, which is why Casper Weinberger got a honorary knighthood) came down on our side. If memory serves, the Australians also offered help but it was too far away, and Chile also helped. Oddly enough, one of the nations to vote against the UK in the UN was (IIRC) Ireland, but my copy of Hastings's Battle For The Falklands is in my digs and I can't check.

    But if that doesn't convince you, try this

    '...I was particularly grateful to President Mitterrand, who with the leaders of the Old Commonwealth, was among the staunchest of our friends and who telephoned me personally to pledge support on Saturday [3 April 1982]. (I was to have many disputes with President Mitterrand in later years, but I never forgot the debt we owed him for his personal support on this occasion and throughout the Falklands crisis). France used her influence in the UN to swing others in our favour...", Margaret Thatcher, The Downing Street Years (1993)
    No, Ireland voted in favour, because they are big on self-determination. Spain voted against.

    Then ten votes in favour of Britain's resolution 502 were UK, US, France, Ireland, Guyana, Togo, Zaire, Japan, Uganda and - after a major wobble where they backed both sides - Jordan.
    Thank you.
    My copy was by my elbow! :smiley:
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. Alistair, really?

    If that is the case then the Scottish Labour Party's situation may develop in a way not necessarily to their advantage.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,741
    ydoethur said:

    viewcode said:

    ydoethur said:

    viewcode said:

    Whilst the French supplied the Argentina regime with Excocet missiles.

    ...and here we go again. The French supplied Argentina with Exocets and aircraft (Super Etandards & Mirages), and they were used to sink British ships. The Americans supplied Argentina with bombs and aircraft (Skyhawks) and ships (eg the General Belgrano used to be the USS Phoenix), and they were used to sink British ships. Even the British supplied Argentina with bombs and ships (Veinticinco de Mayo, Hércules, Santísima Trinidad)...but you get the point.

    All of these helped us during the war; the French stopped selling missiles to the Argentinians and the Anericans (after some convincing, which is why Casper Weinberger got a honorary knighthood) came down on our side. If memory serves, the Australians also offered help but it was too far away, and Chile also helped. Oddly enough, one of the nations to vote against the UK in the UN was (IIRC) Ireland, but my copy of Hastings's Battle For The Falklands is in my digs and I can't check.

    But if that doesn't convince you, try this

    '...I was particularly grateful to President Mitterrand, who with the leaders of the Old Commonwealth, was among the staunchest of our friends and who telephoned me personally to pledge support on Saturday [3 April 1982]. (I was to have many disputes with President Mitterrand in later years, but I never forgot the debt we owed him for his personal support on this occasion and throughout the Falklands crisis). France used her influence in the UN to swing others in our favour...", Margaret Thatcher, The Downing Street Years (1993)
    No, Ireland voted in favour, because they are big on self-determination. Spain voted against.

    Then ten votes in favour of Britain's resolution 502 were UK, US, France, Ireland, Guyana, Togo, Zaire, Japan, Uganda and - after a major wobble where they backed both sides - Jordan.
    Thank you.
    My copy was by my elbow! :smiley:
    :)
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Mr. Alistair, really?

    If that is the case then the Scottish Labour Party's situation may develop in a way not necessarily to their advantage.

    For some reason Labour MPs occasionally pop up to say things like "We should have a UK wide NHS with control from Westninster" the logical conclusion of which is the end of devolution.

    Corbyns's recent comments are in that vein.

    https://twitter.com/endless_psych/status/901837170884972545
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. Ahistair, ah. Unhelpful and daft, but not as bad as it could be.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157
    edited August 2017
    Alistair said:

    Mr. Alistair, really?

    If that is the case then the Scottish Labour Party's situation may develop in a way not necessarily to their advantage.

    For some reason Labour MPs occasionally pop up to say things like "We should have a UK wide NHS with control from Westninster" the logical conclusion of which is the end of devolution.

    Corbyns's recent comments are in that vein.

    https://twitter.com/endless_psych/status/901837170884972545
    This is why Corbyn or Boris is not up to being PM.

    Because they are utterly incapable of thinking before speaking. As a result, they are incoherent and their policy positions are usually either contradictory or straightforwardly impossible. Cf the tuition fees debacle.

    Other people who have a similar shortcoming - Donald Trump, Jean Claude Juncker, Kim Jong Un...not the happiest of lists!

    Edit - I suppose we do know that Corbyn isn't in favour of unitary government? He is from the left and they do tend to favour tight central control so they can direct things.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,240
    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    Mr. Alistair, really?

    If that is the case then the Scottish Labour Party's situation may develop in a way not necessarily to their advantage.

    For some reason Labour MPs occasionally pop up to say things like "We should have a UK wide NHS with control from Westninster" the logical conclusion of which is the end of devolution.

    Corbyns's recent comments are in that vein.

    https://twitter.com/endless_psych/status/901837170884972545
    This is why Corbyn or Boris is not up to being PM.

    Because they are utterly incapable of thinking before speaking. As a result, they are incoherent and their policy positions are usually either contradictory or straightforwardly impossible. Cf the tuition fees debacle.

    Other people who have a similar shortcoming - Donald Trump, Jean Claude Juncker, Kim Jong Un...not the happiest of lists!

    Edit - I suppose we do know that Corbyn isn't in favour of unitary government? He is from the left and they do tend to favour tight central control so they can direct things.
    I'm not sure its not the happiest of lists. I always think before I speak, but I've not successful enough yet to be POTUS, Labour leader, whatever Juncker is, or indeed dictator of South Korea.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157

    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    Mr. Alistair, really?

    If that is the case then the Scottish Labour Party's situation may develop in a way not necessarily to their advantage.

    For some reason Labour MPs occasionally pop up to say things like "We should have a UK wide NHS with control from Westninster" the logical conclusion of which is the end of devolution.

    Corbyns's recent comments are in that vein.

    https://twitter.com/endless_psych/status/901837170884972545
    This is why Corbyn or Boris is not up to being PM.

    Because they are utterly incapable of thinking before speaking. As a result, they are incoherent and their policy positions are usually either contradictory or straightforwardly impossible. Cf the tuition fees debacle.

    Other people who have a similar shortcoming - Donald Trump, Jean Claude Juncker, Kim Jong Un...not the happiest of lists!

    Edit - I suppose we do know that Corbyn isn't in favour of unitary government? He is from the left and they do tend to favour tight central control so they can direct things.
    I'm not sure its not the happiest of lists. I always think before I speak, but I've not successful enough yet to be POTUS, Labour leader, whatever Juncker is, or indeed dictator of South Korea.
    King, I think, not dictator (and of course it's North Korea).

    I'll give you the others!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited August 2017

    Ok, so there are silly people everywhere. But we need to get a move on. Security just watching people throw bottles. Doing nothing.

    Similar thing happened in about 1996 when India were playing Sri Lanka and the match had to be abandoned because the Indian spectators were starting fires in the stands and throwing things on to the field because Sri Lanka were heading for an unexpected win.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,919
    Off-topic:

    It appears the Confederates have won in one way, at least:
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/08/24/oldest-civil-war-pensioner/599159001/
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,140
    New thread,....
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,039

    Kier Starmer is clear favourite to be leader on BF's market at moment. 7. Nearest 2nd is Thornberry on 11.

    When you've had Corbyn as your leader anything is possible.
This discussion has been closed.