Labour going for "soft" Brexit makes them the party of business, which is a strange place for a party led by Jeremy Corbyn.
Maybe not so strange. I was at a dinner in the home counties last week. The only outspoken Tory was a teacher. The small business owners were all pro Labour. Small sample size but it was quite eye opening.
It's hard to see why any small business owner would support a Corbyn-led party. They'd be under the cosh, if Corbyn became PM.
it's also hard to see why they'd support the conservatives
The Conservatives may not be that great, but they're not giving them a hard time.
That wasn't the perception of the ones I was talking to. Though of course there are several million small business owners so finding 4 of them sympathetic to Labour is not proof of anything very much. It was curious though to hear the public sector worker arguing that leaving the EU would open us to a wider world and the traders saying they really wanted to keep in step with EU regulations. The conclusion I drew was that neither of the big parties could rely on automatic support from their natural base. If so the days of triangulation might be over. That might be a good thing. Making a positive case for why people should vote for your party sounds a lot healthier than just demonising the enemy.
Genuine question, do the small business owners you refer to employ people?
You've clearly had a far more mature response to the referendum result than others. Kudos.
I'm trying to move on too - we won, and should be happy with that. I suspect years of belittling and months of attempts to undermine the result rankle with some, but I'm finding it all rather juvenile and easy to come past now.. But I hope we can all grow up a bit soon, and move away from calling the prime minister malevolent or wrongly auggesting Leavers are comparing the EU to Nazi Germany when they're in fact rejoicing in the spirit and heritage of our nation, or indeed, calling those who lost Remoaners.
Thank you for your respectful response. I admit it does puzzle me why so many people on both sides are still fighting a battle that has been won and lost already. The debate now should be about what kind of UK we want to be post departure. I'm finding politics and political debate rather depressing at the moment - which is why I don't read PB as much these days and also why, despite being a Lib Dem member, I don't feel like engaging with my party at the moment... and don't even get me started on Vince Cable...
Yes, Starmer has just outlined the sort of soft Brexit policy that the LDs should espouse. I wished Lamb to stand so that we as a party could debate the stance. Instead we had a Vince coronation. This was a major mistake, though he probably would have won due to the new members.
I think Starmers policy is quite realistic, and that free movement would be acceptable to all but the fanatics if it carried no entitlement to benefits, including in work benefits.
Starmer's policy is basically what the Govt are going for, apart from perhaps a difference on the length of the transition. Of course he wouldn't be able to achieve the FOM reforms, mind.
Don't understand why it has fooled Remainers into thinking we could then Remain, tho?
The difference is that Starmer can deliver it as not having to deal with the headbangers refusing the European courts, payments, and doesn't have to assuage post imperial fantisies of Anglosphere trade deals.
Grin.
Just the tiny problem of not being in Govt, eh?
That's precisly the point. Labour does not have to deliver. The Tories do. They have promised that the Brexit Britain they are taking us to will be a fairer, more prosperous country. That's what they'll be judged on.
Vodafone for one are already moaning about the cost of the EU abolition of roaming charges. How soon after Brexit will those charges be re-imposed? An awful lot of voters take foreign .... i.e. EU holidays.
That's precisly the point. Labour does not have to deliver. The Tories do. They have promised that the Brexit Britain they are taking us to will be a fairer, more prosperous country. That's what they'll be judged on.
Vodafone for one are already moaning about the cost of the EU abolition of roaming charges. How soon after Brexit will those charges be re-imposed? An awful lot of voters take foreign .... i.e. EU holidays.
Labour going for "soft" Brexit makes them the party of business, which is a strange place for a party led by Jeremy Corbyn.
Maybe not so strange. I was at a dinner in the home counties last week. The only outspoken Tory was a teacher. The small business owners were all pro Labour. Small sample size but it was quite eye opening.
It's hard to see why any small business owner would support a Corbyn-led party. They'd be under the cosh, if Corbyn became PM.
it's also hard to see why they'd support the conservatives
The Conservatives may not be that great, but they're not giving them a hard time.
That wasn't the perception of the ones I was talking to. Though of course there are several million small business owners so finding 4 of them sympathetic to Labour is not proof of anything very much. It was curious though to hear the public sector worker arguing that leaving the EU would open us to a wider world and the traders saying they really wanted to keep in step with EU regulations. The conclusion I drew was that neither of the big parties could rely on automatic support from their natural base. If so the days of triangulation might be over. That might be a good thing. Making a positive case for why people should vote for your party sounds a lot healthier than just demonising the enemy.
I see Remainers are letting themselves get all overexcited again this morning.
Golden rule of Brexit is that the better Remainers think something is for them, the worse it plays for them in the country:
- Obama - Osborne and his various predictions of doom - Debates - The actual vote - Gina Miller's Legal challenge - The GE - Keir Starmer
You'd think they'd have learned by now...
I notice you ignore Mrs. May's vanity project election on June 8th -
'The GE', as referenced above, which hasn't changed govt Brexit policy one bit.
As I say, Remainers get overexcited. They've forgotten how to reason about this issue.
People voted to leave, and leave we shall. Rejoice.
TMay went into the election to secure mandate for her Brexit plans. The was the expressed purpose for going to the country 3 years early. She failed to get a majority and therefore for has no mandate.
Some would argue that the later general election supersedes the advisory referendum.
And at that election people voted overwhelmingly for parties that were explicit that Brexit should and would happen and would be of the harder variety.
It is not like there was much choice Richard - excepting Scotland and the SNP (different politics because of Indy) it was vote Pro-Brexit Tory or Pro-Brexit Labour.
You've clearly had a far more mature response to the referendum result than others. Kudos.
I'm trying to move on too - we won, and should be happy with that. I suspect years of belittling and months of attempts to undermine the result rankle with some, but I'm finding it all rather juvenile and easy to come past now.. But I hope we can all grow up a bit soon, and move away from calling the prime minister malevolent or wrongly auggesting Leavers are comparing the EU to Nazi Germany when they're in fact rejoicing in the spirit and heritage of our nation, or indeed, calling those who lost Remoaners.
Yes, Starmer has just outlined the sort of soft Brexit policy that the LDs should espouse. I wished Lamb to stand so that we as a party could debate the stance. Instead we had a Vince coronation. This was a major mistake, though he probably would have won due to the new members.
I think Starmers policy is quite realistic, and that free movement would be acceptable to all but the fanatics if it carried no entitlement to benefits, including in work benefits.
Starmer's policy is basically what the Govt are going for, apart from perhaps a difference on the length of the transition. Of course he wouldn't be able to achieve the FOM reforms, mind.
Don't understand why it has fooled Remainers into thinking we could then Remain, tho?
The difference is that Starmer can deliver it as not having to deal with the headbangers refusing the European courts, payments, and doesn't have to assuage post imperial fantisies of Anglosphere trade deals.
Grin.
Just the tiny problem of not being in Govt, eh?
That's precisly the point. Labour does not have to deliver. The Tories do. They have promised that the Brexit Britain they are taking us to will be a fairer, more prosperous country. That's what they'll be judged on.
Vodafone for one are already moaning about the cost of the EU abolition of roaming charges. How soon after Brexit will those charges be re-imposed? An awful lot of voters take foreign .... i.e. EU holidays.
Ah, But after Brexit, we would need a visa to enter the EU, as their visitors would need one to come to the UK. The patriotic dogma will build that will say that people should stay in the UK for holidays and that all foreigners are spy's.
Labour going for "soft" Brexit makes them the party of business, which is a strange place for a party led by Jeremy Corbyn.
Maybe not so strange. I was at a dinner in the home counties last week. The only outspoken Tory was a teacher. The small business owners were all pro Labour. Small sample size but it was quite eye opening.
It's hard to see why any small business owner would support a Corbyn-led party. They'd be under the cosh, if Corbyn became PM.
it's also hard to see why they'd support the conservatives
The Conservatives may not be that great, but they're not giving them a hard time.
That wasn't the perception of the ones I was talking to. Though of course there are several million small business owners so finding 4 of them sympathetic to Labour is not proof of anything very much. It was curious though to hear the public sector worker arguing that leaving the EU would open us to a wider world and the traders saying they really wanted to keep in step with EU regulations. The conclusion I drew was that neither of the big parties could rely on automatic support from their natural base. If so the days of triangulation might be over. That might be a good thing. Making a positive case for why people should vote for your party sounds a lot healthier than just demonising the enemy.
Genuine question, do the small business owners you refer to employ people?
Our one employs over 100. None of the shareholders (there's around 10 of us) is a Tory.
Vodafone for one are already moaning about the cost of the EU abolition of roaming charges. How soon after Brexit will those charges be re-imposed? An awful lot of voters take foreign .... i.e. EU holidays.
I see Remainers are letting themselves get all overexcited again this morning.
Golden rule of Brexit is that the better Remainers think something is for them, the worse it plays for them in the country:
- Obama - Osborne and his various predictions of doom - Debates - The actual vote - Gina Miller's Legal challenge - The GE - Keir Starmer
You'd think they'd have learned by now...
I notice you ignore Mrs. May's vanity project election on June 8th -
'The GE', as referenced above, which hasn't changed govt Brexit policy one bit.
As I say, Remainers get overexcited. They've forgotten how to reason about this issue.
People voted to leave, and leave we shall. Rejoice.
TMay went into the election to secure mandate for her Brexit plans. The was the expressed purpose for going to the country 3 years early. She failed to get a majority and therefore for has no mandate.
Some would argue that the later general election supersedes the advisory referendum.
And at that election people voted overwhelmingly for parties that were explicit that Brexit should and would happen and would be of the harder variety.
That's precisly the point. Labour does not have to deliver. The Tories do. They have promised that the Brexit Britain they are taking us to will be a fairer, more prosperous country. That's what they'll be judged on.
Vodafone for one are already moaning about the cost of the EU abolition of roaming charges. How soon after Brexit will those charges be re-imposed? An awful lot of voters take foreign .... i.e. EU holidays.
Immaterial as we won't be able to fly anywhere
I assume the Channel Tunnel and the ferries are going to continue to operate.
I see Remainers are letting themselves get all overexcited again this morning.
'Golden rule of Brexit is that the better Remainers think something is for them, the worse it plays for them in the country:
- Obama - Osborne and his various predictions of doom - Debates - The actual vote - Gina Miller's Legal challenge - The GE - Keir Starmer
You'd think they'd have learned by now...
I notice you ignore Mrs. May's vanity project election on June 8th -
'The GE', as referenced above, which hasn't changed govt Brexit policy one bit.
As I say, Remainers get overexcited. They've forgotten how to reason about this issue.
People voted to leave, and leave we shall. Rejoice.
TMay went into the election to secure mandate for her Brexit plans. The was the expressed purpose for going to the country 3 years early. She failed to get a majority and therefore for has no mandate.
Some would argue that the later general election supersedes the advisory referendum.
And at that election people voted overwhelmingly for parties that were explicit that Brexit should and would happen and would be of the harder variety.
That's precisly the point. Labour does not have to deliver. The Tories do. They have promised that the Brexit Britain they are taking us to will be a fairer, more prosperous country. That's what they'll be judged on.
'Vodafone for one are already moaning about the cost of the EU abolition of roaming charges. How soon after Brexit will those charges be re-imposed? An awful lot of voters take foreign .... i.e. EU holidays.
Immaterial as we won't be able to fly anywhere
I assume the Channel Tunnel and the ferries are going to continue to operate.'
It is not straw clutching, the only parties which explicitly backed soft Brexit were the LDs, who lost voteshare and won only 12 seats and the SNP who lost both voteshare and seats
Vodafone for one are already moaning about the cost of the EU abolition of roaming charges. How soon after Brexit will those charges be re-imposed? An awful lot of voters take foreign .... i.e. EU holidays.
I see Remainers are letting themselves get all overexcited again this morning.
Golden rule of Brexit is that the better Remainers think something is for them, the worse it plays for them in the country:
- Obama - Osborne and his various predictions of doom - Debates - The actual vote - Gina Miller's Legal challenge - The GE - Keir Starmer
You'd think they'd have learned by now...
I notice you ignore Mrs. May's vanity project election on June 8th -
'The GE', as referenced above, which hasn't changed govt Brexit policy one bit.
As I say, Remainers get overexcited. They've forgotten how to reason about this issue.
People voted to leave, and leave we shall. Rejoice.
TMay went into the election to secure mandate for her Brexit plans. The was the expressed purpose for going to the country 3 years early. She failed to get a majority and therefore for has no mandate.
Some would argue that the later general election supersedes the advisory referendum.
And at that election people voted overwhelmingly for parties that were explicit that Brexit should and would happen and would be of the harder variety.
It is not like there was much choice Richard - excepting Scotland and the SNP (different politics because of Indy) it was vote Pro-Brexit Tory or Pro-Brexit Labour.
Have you forgotten the Lib Dems? I know they are an irrelevance these days but they did still participate
You've clearly had a far more mature response to the referendum result than others. Kudos.
I'm trying to move on too - we won, and should be happy with that. I suspect years of belittling and months of attempts to undermine the result rankle with some, but I'm finding it all rather juvenile and easy to come past now.. But I hope we can all grow up a bit soon, and move away from calling the prime minister malevolent or wrongly auggesting Leavers are comparing the EU to Nazi Germany when they're in fact rejoicing in the spirit and heritage of our nation, or indeed, calling those who lost Remoaners.
Yes, Starmer has just outlined the sort of soft Brexit policy that the LDs should espouse. I wished Lamb to stand so that we as a party could debate the stance. Instead we had a Vince coronation. This was a major mistake, though he probably would have won due to the new members.
I think Starmers policy is quite realistic, and that free movement would be acceptable to all but the fanatics if it carried no entitlement to benefits, including in work benefits.
Starmer's policy is basically what the Govt are going for, apart from perhaps a difference on the length of the transition. Of course he wouldn't be able to achieve the FOM reforms, mind.
Don't understand why it has fooled Remainers into thinking we could then Remain, tho?
The difference is that Starmer can deliver it as not having to deal with the headbangers refusing the European courts, payments, and doesn't have to assuage post imperial fantisies of Anglosphere trade deals.
Grin.
Just the tiny problem of not being in Govt, eh?
That's precisly the point. Labour does not have to deliver. The Tories do. They have promised that the Brexit Britain they are taking us to will be a fairer, more prosperous country. That's what they'll be judged on.
Vodafone for one are already moaning about the cost of the EU abolition of roaming charges. How soon after Brexit will those charges be re-imposed? An awful lot of voters take foreign .... i.e. EU holidays.
Ah, But after Brexit, we would need a visa to enter the EU, as their visitors would need one to come to the UK. The patriotic dogma will build that will say that people should stay in the UK for holidays and that all foreigners are spy's.
That’s a thought! But isn’t it spies?
Seriously, as someone who has investements in a company with foreign villas I’m a bit worried.
I see Remainers are letting themselves get all overexcited again this morning.
Golden rule of Brexit is that the better Remainers think something is for them, the worse it plays for them in the country:
- Obama - Osborne and his various predictions of doom - Debates - The actual vote - Gina Miller's Legal challenge - The GE - Keir Starmer
You'd think they'd have learned by now...
I notice you ignore Mrs. May's vanity project election on June 8th -
'The GE', as referenced above, which hasn't changed govt Brexit policy one bit.
As I say, Remainers get overexcited. They've forgotten how to reason about this issue.
People voted to leave, and leave we shall. Rejoice.
TMay went into the election to secure mandate for her Brexit plans. The was the expressed purpose for going to the country 3 years early. She failed to get a majority and therefore for has no mandate.
Some would argue that the later general election supersedes the advisory referendum.
And at that election people voted overwhelmingly for parties that were explicit that Brexit should and would happen and would be of the harder variety.
That's precisly the point. Labour does not have to deliver. The Tories do. They have promised that the Brexit Britain they are taking us to will be a fairer, more prosperous country. That's what they'll be judged on.
Vodafone for one are already moaning about the cost of the EU abolition of roaming charges. How soon after Brexit will those charges be re-imposed? An awful lot of voters take foreign .... i.e. EU holidays.
Immaterial as we won't be able to fly anywhere
I assume the Channel Tunnel and the ferries are going to continue to operate.
Mike if straw clutching were an Olympic sport you would be the gold medal winner.
Labour going for "soft" Brexit makes them the party of business, which is a strange place for a party led by Jeremy Corbyn.
Maybe not so strange. I was at a dinner in the home counties last week. The only outspoken Tory was a teacher. The small business owners were all pro Labour. Small sample size but it was quite eye opening.
It's hard to see why any small business owner would support a Corbyn-led party. They'd be under the cosh, if Corbyn became PM.
it's also hard to see why they'd support the conservatives
The Conservatives may not be that great, but they're not giving them a hard time.
That wasn't the perception of the ones I was talking to. Though of course there are several million small business owners so finding 4 of them sympathetic to Labour is not proof of anything very much. It was curious though to hear the public sector worker arguing that leaving the EU would open us to a wider world and the traders saying they really wanted to keep in step with EU regulations. The conclusion I drew was that neither of the big parties could rely on automatic support from their natural base. If so the days of triangulation might be over. That might be a good thing. Making a positive case for why people should vote for your party sounds a lot healthier than just demonising the enemy.
Genuine question, do the small business owners you refer to employ people?
Our one employs over 100. None of the shareholders (there's around 10 of us) is a Tory.
Not the tiniest bit worried about the cost of labour rising then?
Vodafone for one are already moaning about the cost of the EU abolition of roaming charges. How soon after Brexit will those charges be re-imposed? An awful lot of voters take foreign .... i.e. EU holidays.
Vodafone for one are already moaning about the cost of the EU abolition of roaming charges. How soon after Brexit will those charges be re-imposed? An awful lot of voters take foreign .... i.e. EU holidays.
I don't think it would be easy to reintroduce charges post brexit. OTOH we will presumably get proper duty free again.
What has Vodafone done with the £80 billion it got from selling its half of Verizon (its American equivalent)? Anything that could reasonably be called investment?
Labour going for "soft" Brexit makes them the party of business, which is a strange place for a party led by Jeremy Corbyn.
Maybe not so strange. I was at a dinner in the home counties last week. The only outspoken Tory was a teacher. The small business owners were all pro Labour. Small sample size but it was quite eye opening.
It's hard to see why any small business owner would support a Corbyn-led party. They'd be under the cosh, if Corbyn became PM.
it's also hard to see why they'd support the conservatives
The Conservatives may not be that great, but they're not giving them a hard time.
That wasn't the perception of the ones I was talking to. Though of course there are several million small business owners so finding 4 of them sympathetic to Labour is not proof of anything very much. It was curious though to hear the public sector worker arguing that leaving the EU would open us to a wider world and the traders saying they really wanted to keep in step with EU regulations. The conclusion I drew was that neither of the big parties could rely on automatic support from their natural base. If so the days of triangulation might be over. That might be a good thing. Making a positive case for why people should vote for your party sounds a lot healthier than just demonising the enemy.
Genuine question, do the small business owners you refer to employ people?
Our one employs over 100. None of the shareholders (there's around 10 of us) is a Tory.
Not the tiniest bit worried about the cost of labour rising then?
Labour going for "soft" Brexit makes them the party of business, which is a strange place for a party led by Jeremy Corbyn.
Maybe not so strange. I was at a dinner in the home counties last week. The only outspoken Tory was a teacher. The small business owners were all pro Labour. Small sample size but it was quite eye opening.
It's hard to see why any small business owner would support a Corbyn-led party. They'd be under the cosh, if Corbyn became PM.
it's also hard to see why they'd support the conservatives
The Conservatives may not be that great, but they're not giving them a hard time.
That wasn't the perception of the ones I was talking to. Though of course there are several million small business owners so finding 4 of them sympathetic to Labour is not proof of anything very much. It was curious though to hear the public sector worker arguing that leaving the EU would open us to a wider world and the traders saying they really wanted to keep in step with EU regulations. The conclusion I drew was that neither of the big parties could rely on automatic support from their natural base. If so the days of triangulation might be over. That might be a good thing. Making a positive case for why people should vote for your party sounds a lot healthier than just demonising the enemy.
Genuine question, do the small business owners you refer to employ people?
One employs three, but they do something very specialist and scientific that sells around the world and seems to involve writing long reports. One is a stone mason of all things. He is winding down to retire and only has one employee now but had 20 blue collar types on his payroll at one time. The other two are small retail businesses that employ shop workers - their employees tend to be a bit casual/short term. None of them employ EU immigrants as far as I know. So they aren't captains of industry but they are the sort of people you'd expect to see at a Conservative Association meeting.
Labour going for "soft" Brexit makes them the party of business, which is a strange place for a party led by Jeremy Corbyn.
Maybe not so strange. I was at a dinner in the home counties last week. The only outspoken Tory was a teacher. The small business owners were all pro Labour. Small sample size but it was quite eye opening.
It's hard to see why any small business owner would support a Corbyn-led party. They'd be under the cosh, if Corbyn became PM.
it's also hard to see why they'd support the conservatives
The Conservatives may not be that great, but they're not giving them a hard time.
That wasn't the perception of the ones I was talking to. Though of course there are several million small business owners so finding 4 of them sympathetic to Labour is not proof of anything very much. It was curious though to hear the public sector worker arguing that leaving the EU would open us to a wider world and the traders saying they really wanted to keep in step with EU regulations. The conclusion I drew was that neither of the big parties could rely on automatic support from their natural base. If so the days of triangulation might be over. That might be a good thing. Making a positive case for why people should vote for your party sounds a lot healthier than just demonising the enemy.
Genuine question, do the small business owners you refer to employ people?
Our one employs over 100. None of the shareholders (there's around 10 of us) is a Tory.
Not the tiniest bit worried about the cost of labour rising then?
We already pay way above minimum and living wage. That's the business we're in.
Labour going for "soft" Brexit makes them the party of business, which is a strange place for a party led by Jeremy Corbyn.
Maybe not so strange. I was at a dinner in the home counties last week. The only outspoken Tory was a teacher. The small business owners were all pro Labour. Small sample size but it was quite eye opening.
It's hard to see why any small business owner would support a Corbyn-led party. They'd be under the cosh, if Corbyn became PM.
it's also hard to see why they'd support the conservatives
The Conservatives may not be that great, but they're not giving them a hard time.
That wasn't the perception of the ones I was talking to. Though of course there are several million small business owners so finding 4 of them sympathetic to Labour is not proof of anything very much. It was curious though to hear the public sector worker arguing that leaving the EU would open us to a wider world and the traders saying they really wanted to keep in step with EU regulations. The conclusion I drew was that neither of the big parties could rely on automatic support from their natural base. If so the days of triangulation might be over. That might be a good thing. Making a positive case for why people should vote for your party sounds a lot healthier than just demonising the enemy.
I agree. It must be a good thing that if you're a Tory, you can't assume that people living in posh houses will vote for you, regardless, at the same time as assuming there's no point campaigning in council estates, and the same goes for Labour in reverse.
From campaigning in 3 elections this year, including my own and from the polling evidence I can confirm that while the posher houses are slightly more likely to vote Tory than the less posh there are plenty of Remainer Left Liberals in big houses and plenty of working class Eurosceptics now voting Tory in pretty modest houses (even a few on council estates)
A far better indicator of voting intention is now age rather than social class
I see Remainers are letting themselves get all overexcited again this morning.
Golden rule of Brexit is that the better Remainers think something is for them, the worse it plays for them in the country:
- Obama - Osborne and his various predictions of doom - Debates - The actual vote - Gina Miller's Legal challenge - The GE - Keir Starmer
You'd think they'd have learned by now...
I'm a Remainer (in spirit and heart even though it's not possible now in practice) and I can honestly say that I didn't get even slightly excited about any of the stuff on your list. I've had a feeling of impending doom throughout the entire process and I still do. 52% of the UK voted to leave the EU and there's nothing to be done about it. That has to be respected. So we Remainers are finished - unless something totally unforeseen happens. That's the reality as I see it.
Thank you for using the word Remainer rather than the taunting Remoaner word that so many of your less thoughtful fellow winners use to kick us while we are down. That one really vicious word, especially when used in the printed media and on TV, is quite high (in my opinion) on the list of reasons why the country is not showing any signs of uniting.
You've clearly had a far more mature response to the referendum result than others. Kudos.
I'm trying to move on too - we won, and should be happy with that. I suspect years of belittling and months of attempts to undermine the result rankle with some, but I'm finding it all rather juvenile and easy to come past now.. But I hope we can all grow up a bit soon, and move away from calling the prime minister malevolent or wrongly auggesting Leavers are comparing the EU to Nazi Germany when they're in fact rejoicing in the spirit and heritage of our nation, or indeed, calling those who lost Remoaners.
Since you did compare the EU to Nazi Germany, your bleating is not just wrongheaded but advertises your contemptibility.
I see Remainers are letting themselves get all overexcited again this morning.
Golden rule of Brexit is that the better Remainers think something is for them, the worse it plays for them in the country:
- Obama - Osborne and his various predictions of doom - Debates - The actual vote - Gina Miller's Legal challenge - The GE - Keir Starmer
You'd think they'd have learned by now...
I notice you ignore Mrs. May's vanity project election on June 8th -
'The GE', as referenced above, which hasn't changed govt Brexit policy one bit.
As I say, Remainers get overexcited. They've forgotten how to reason about this issue.
People voted to leave, and leave we shall. Rejoice.
TMay went into the election to secure mandate for her Brexit plans. The was the expressed purpose for going to the country 3 years early. She failed to get a majority and therefore for has no mandate.
Some would argue that the later general election supersedes the advisory referendum.
And at that election people voted overwhelmingly for parties that were explicit that Brexit should and would happen and would be of the harder variety.
It is not like there was much choice Richard - excepting Scotland and the SNP (different politics because of Indy) it was vote Pro-Brexit Tory or Pro-Brexit Labour.
Have you forgotten the Lib Dems? I know they are an irrelevance these days but they did still participate
No I did not forget the LibDems. Whilst I would like to see them get more votes I do not think anyone ever believes that the LDs could be the largest party. There was a brief flash in the 80s with the LD/SDP but that was it.
Labour going for "soft" Brexit makes them the party of business, which is a strange place for a party led by Jeremy Corbyn.
Maybe not so strange. I was at a dinner in the home counties last week. The only outspoken Tory was a teacher. The small business owners were all pro Labour. Small sample size but it was quite eye opening.
It's hard to see why any small business owner would support a Corbyn-led party. They'd be under the cosh, if Corbyn became PM.
it's also hard to see why they'd support the conservatives
The Conservatives may not be that great, but they're not giving them a hard time.
That wasn't the perception of the ones I was talking to. Though of course there are several million small business owners so finding 4 of them sympathetic to Labour is not proof of anything very much. It was curious though to hear the public sector worker arguing that leaving the EU would open us to a wider world and the traders saying they really wanted to keep in step with EU regulations. The conclusion I drew was that neither of the big parties could rely on automatic support from their natural base. If so the days of triangulation might be over. That might be a good thing. Making a positive case for why people should vote for your party sounds a lot healthier than just demonising the enemy.
I agree. It must be a good thing that if you're a Tory, you can't assume that people living in posh houses will vote for you, regardless, at the same time as assuming there's no point campaigning in council estates, and the same goes for Labour in reverse.
From campaigning in 3 elections this year, including my own and from the polling evidence I can confirm that while the posher houses are slightly more likely to vote Tory than the less posh there are plenty of Remainer Left Liberals in big houses and plenty of working class Eurosceptics now voting Tory in pretty modest houses (even a few on council estates)
A far better indicator of voting intention is now age rather than social class
But age no longer the best guide to turnout as most of the pollsters discovered on June 8th
I see Remainers are letting themselves get all overexcited again this morning.
Golden rule of Brexit is that the better Remainers think something is for them, the worse it plays for them in the country:
- Obama - Osborne and his various predictions of doom - Debates - The actual vote - Gina Miller's Legal challenge - The GE - Keir Starmer
You'd think they'd have learned by now...
I notice you ignore Mrs. May's vanity project election on June 8th -
'The GE', as referenced above, which hasn't changed govt Brexit policy one bit.
As I say, Remainers get overexcited. They've forgotten how to reason about this issue.
People voted to leave, and leave we shall. Rejoice.
TMay went into the election to secure mandate for her Brexit plans. The was the expressed purpose for going to the country 3 years early. She failed to get a majority and therefore for has no mandate.
Some would argue that the later general election supersedes the advisory referendum.
85% voted for pRties backing Brexit. The LibDems, backing Remain, didn't do that well
I see Remainers are letting themselves get all overexcited again this morning.
Golden rule of Brexit is that the better Remainers think something is for them, the worse it plays for them in the country:
- Obama - Osborne and his various predictions of doom - Debates - The actual vote - Gina Miller's Legal challenge - The GE - Keir Starmer
You'd think they'd have learned by now...
I notice you ignore Mrs. May's vanity project election on June 8th -
'The GE', as referenced above, which hasn't changed govt Brexit policy one bit.
As I say, Remainers get overexcited. They've forgotten how to reason about this issue.
People voted to leave, and leave we shall. Rejoice.
TMay went into the election to secure mandate for her Brexit plans. The was the expressed purpose for going to the country 3 years early. She failed to get a majority and therefore for has no mandate.
Some would argue that the later general election supersedes the advisory referendum.
And at that election people voted overwhelmingly for parties that were explicit that Brexit should and would happen and would be of the harder variety.
It is not like there was much choice Richard - excepting Scotland and the SNP (different politics because of Indy) it was vote Pro-Brexit Tory or Pro-Brexit Labour.
Have you forgotten the Lib Dems? I know they are an irrelevance these days but they did still participate
No I did not forget the LibDems. Whilst I would like to see them get more votes I do not think anyone ever believes that the LDs could be the largest party. There was a brief flash in the 80s with the LD/SDP but that was it.
Yes but they were the anti-Brexit vote, you said people did not have much choice but they did.
OTOH we will presumably get proper duty free again.
Are you serious? Let us risk the economy and jobs etc so we can get cheaper booze in airports?
Oh well.... enjoy the savings because you will need them to pay for the higher costs of flying.
No, of course I am not serious. I also don't smoke, drink or wear perfume so the savings for me would be thin pickings. But I read somewhere the other day that 20% of the nation's spend on drink is at airports, so it's a bigger factor than you might think.
Vodafone for one are already moaning about the cost of the EU abolition of roaming charges. How soon after Brexit will those charges be re-imposed? An awful lot of voters take foreign .... i.e. EU holidays.
I don't think it would be easy to reintroduce charges post brexit. OTOH we will presumably get proper duty free again.
Only with proper customs checks at ports and airports. That'll mean a lot more customs officers.
50000 extra customs officials and 30000 extra border force. I think they will cut Police by 50000 and the Military by 30000.
Proper duty free means i can only bring 200 fags and litre of spirits. Currently I can bring what is resonable for personal consumption vastly improving what i can save, based on current Spanish prices.
I see Remainers are letting themselves get all overexcited again this morning.
Golden rule of Brexit is that the better Remainers think something is for them, the worse it plays for them in the country:
- Obama - Osborne and his various predictions of doom - Debates - The actual vote - Gina Miller's Legal challenge - The GE - Keir Starmer
You'd think they'd have learned by now...
I notice you ignore Mrs. May's vanity project election on June 8th -
'The GE', as referenced above, which hasn't changed govt Brexit policy one bit.
As I say, Remainers get overexcited. They've forgotten how to reason about this issue.
People voted to leave, and leave we shall. Rejoice.
TMay went into the election to secure mandate for her Brexit plans. The was the expressed purpose for going to the country 3 years early. She failed to get a majority and therefore for has no mandate.
Some would argue that the later general election supersedes the advisory referendum.
85% voted for pRties backing Brexit. The LibDems, backing Remain, didn't do that well
That is a red herring as the BES post election data shows. LAB got the anti Brexit votes in key marginals where it mattered.
I see Remainers are letting themselves get all overexcited again this morning.
Golden rule of Brexit is that the better Remainers think something is for them, the worse it plays for them in the country:
- Obama - Osborne and his various predictions of doom - Debates - The actual vote - Gina Miller's Legal challenge - The GE - Keir Starmer
You'd think they'd have learned by now...
I notice you ignore Mrs. May's vanity project election on June 8th -
'The GE', as referenced above, which hasn't changed govt Brexit policy one bit.
As I say, Remainers get overexcited. They've forgotten how to reason about this issue.
People voted to leave, and leave we shall. Rejoice.
TMay went into the election to secure mandate for her Brexit plans. The was the expressed purpose for going to the country 3 years early. She failed to get a majority and therefore for has no mandate.
Some would argue that the later general election supersedes the advisory referendum.
And at that election people voted overwhelmingly for parties that were explicit that Brexit should and would happen and would be of the harder variety.
It is not like there was much choice Richard - excepting Scotland and the SNP (different politics because of Indy) it was vote Pro-Brexit Tory or Pro-Brexit Labour.
Have you forgotten the Lib Dems? I know they are an irrelevance these days but they did still participate
No I did not forget the LibDems. Whilst I would like to see them get more votes I do not think anyone ever believes that the LDs could be the largest party. There was a brief flash in the 80s with the LD/SDP but that was it.
Yes but they were the anti-Brexit vote, you said people did not have much choice but they did.
Voting for a party that has zero chance of being elected to govt is not a choice. You can argue the semantics of it all day long but in reality the ONLY parties that mattered were the two big ones. Both Pro-Brexit.
I see Remainers are letting themselves get all overexcited again this morning.
Golden rule of Brexit is that the better Remainers think something is for them, the worse it plays for them in the country:
- Obama - Osborne and his various predictions of doom - Debates - The actual vote - Gina Miller's Legal challenge - The GE - Keir Starmer
You'd think they'd have learned by now...
I notice you ignore Mrs. May's vanity project election on June 8th -
'The GE', as referenced above, which hasn't changed govt Brexit policy one bit.
As I say, Remainers get overexcited. They've forgotten how to reason about this issue.
People voted to leave, and leave we shall. Rejoice.
TMay went into the election to secure mandate for her Brexit plans. The was the expressed purpose for going to the country 3 years early. She failed to get a majority and therefore for has no mandate.
Some would argue that the later general election supersedes the advisory referendum.
85% voted for pRties backing Brexit. The LibDems, backing Remain, didn't do that well
That is a red herring as the BES post election data shows. LAB got the anti Brexit votes in key marginals where it mattered.
What matters is that the Conservatives won enough seats to form the government. Even if we add Labour, SNP, Plaid, Green, and Lib Dems together, they fell short.
I see Remainers are letting themselves get all overexcited again this morning.
Golden rule of Brexit is that the better Remainers think something is for them, the worse it plays for them in the country:
- Obama - Osborne and his various predictions of doom - Debates - The actual vote - Gina Miller's Legal challenge - The GE - Keir Starmer
You'd think they'd have learned by now...
I notice you ignore Mrs. May's vanity project election on June 8th -
'The GE', as referenced above, which hasn't changed govt Brexit policy one bit.
As I say, Remainers get overexcited. They've forgotten how to reason about this issue.
People voted to leave, and leave we shall. Rejoice.
TMay went into the election to secure mandate for her Brexit plans. The was the expressed purpose for going to the country 3 years early. She failed to get a majority and therefore for has no mandate.
Some would argue that the later general election supersedes the advisory referendum.
And at that election people voted overwhelmingly for parties that were explicit that Brexit should and would happen and would be of the harder variety.
It is not like there was much choice Richard - excepting Scotland and the SNP (different politics because of Indy) it was vote Pro-Brexit Tory or Pro-Brexit Labour.
Have you forgotten the Lib Dems? I know they are an irrelevance these days but they did still participate
No I did not forget the LibDems. Whilst I would like to see them get more votes I do not think anyone ever believes that the LDs could be the largest party. There was a brief flash in the 80s with the LD/SDP but that was it.
Yes but they were the anti-Brexit vote, you said people did not have much choice but they did.
Voting for a party that has zero chance of being elected to govt is not a choice. You can argue the semantics of it all day long but in reality the ONLY parties that mattered were the two big ones. Both Pro-Brexit.
Yet the same party got 54 seats in 2010.
Your argument is rubbish, the Lib Dems campaigned on an anti-Brexit ticket and got well and truly stuffed.
I see Remainers are letting themselves get all overexcited again this morning.
Golden rule of Brexit is that the better Remainers think something is for them, the worse it plays for them in the country:
- Obama - Osborne and his various predictions of doom - Debates - The actual vote - Gina Miller's Legal challenge - The GE - Keir Starmer
You'd think they'd have learned by now...
I notice you ignore Mrs. May's vanity project election on June 8th -
'The GE', as referenced above, which hasn't changed govt Brexit policy one bit.
As I say, Remainers get overexcited. They've forgotten how to reason about this issue.
People voted to leave, and leave we shall. Rejoice.
TMay went into the election to secure mandate for her Brexit plans. The was the expressed purpose for going to the country 3 years early. She failed to get a majority and therefore for has no mandate.
Some would argue that the later general election supersedes the advisory referendum.
85% voted for pRties backing Brexit. The LibDems, backing Remain, didn't do that well
That is a red herring as the BES post election data shows. LAB got the anti Brexit votes in key marginals where it mattered.
Almost no voters agree with all the policies of the party they ultimately vote for. For example, I voted for Plaid Cymru despite opposing Welsh independence in 2007. It was a best fit approach - although I disagreed with that policy, as it wasn't going to happen it wasn't important and as they were the only people with passably sane policies on furthering devolution and tackling bovine TB, they were the ones I went for.
But if you vote for a party, you do give them free reign to implement their policies if they win. In my particular case that was useful as Plaid in coalition were unable to pursue independence but did get law making powers and focussed badger culling. But if they had formed a government and held an independence referendum I could have had no grounds for complaint although I could have voted differently next time (although as it happens I haven't lived Ina seat with a Plaid candidate since).
Labour voters voted for a fairly stiff Brexit. If they didn't realise that, then you have to wonder what they were on at the time given Labour made no secret of it. However, they may legitimately have thought it was less important than other issues (pay, debt, housing).
The irony is if Labour genuinely are ditching their policy, it has come too late to make the difference their voters wanted
I see Remainers are letting themselves get all overexcited again this morning.
Golden rule of Brexit is that the better Remainers think something is for them, the worse it plays for them in the country:
- Obama - Osborne and his various predictions of doom - Debates - The actual vote - Gina Miller's Legal challenge - The GE - Keir Starmer
You'd think they'd have learned by now...
I notice you ignore Mrs. May's vanity project election on June 8th -
'The GE', as referenced above, which hasn't changed govt Brexit policy one bit.
As I say, Remainers get overexcited. They've forgotten how to reason about this issue.
People voted to leave, and leave we shall. Rejoice.
TMay went into the election to secure mandate for her Brexit plans. The was the expressed purpose for going to the country 3 years early. She failed to get a majority and therefore for has no mandate.
Some would argue that the later general election supersedes the advisory referendum.
85% voted for pRties backing Brexit. The LibDems, backing Remain, didn't do that well
That is a red herring as the BES post election data shows. LAB got the anti Brexit votes in key marginals where it mattered.
What matters is that the Conservatives won enough seats to form the government. Even if we add Labour, SNP, Plaid, Green, and Lib Dems together, they fell short.
And the hapless Lib Dems got 12 on an anti-Brexit ticket!
I see Remainers are letting themselves get all overexcited again this morning.
Golden rule of Brexit is that the better Remainers think something is for them, the worse it plays for them in the country:
- Obama - Osborne and his various predictions of doom - Debates - The actual vote - Gina Miller's Legal challenge - The GE - Keir Starmer
You'd think they'd have learned by now...
I notice you ignore Mrs. May's vanity project election on June 8th -
'The GE', as referenced above, which hasn't changed govt Brexit policy one bit.
As I say, Remainers get overexcited. They've forgotten how to reason about this issue.
People voted to leave, and leave we shall. Rejoice.
TMay went into the election to secure mandate for her Brexit plans. The was the expressed purpose for going to the country 3 years early. She failed to get a majority and therefore for has no mandate.
Some would argue that the later general election supersedes the advisory referendum.
And at that election people voted overwhelmingly for parties that were explicit that Brexit should and would happen and would be of the harder variety.
It is not like there was much choice Richard - excepting Scotland and the SNP (different politics because of Indy) it was vote Pro-Brexit Tory or Pro-Brexit Labour.
Have you forgotten the Lib Dems? I know they are an irrelevance these days but they did still participate
No I did not forget the LibDems. Whilst I would like to see them get more votes I do not think anyone ever believes that the LDs could be the largest party. There was a brief flash in the 80s with the LD/SDP but that was it.
Yes but they were the anti-Brexit vote, you said people did not have much choice but they did.
Voting for a party that has zero chance of being elected to govt is not a choice. You can argue the semantics of it all day long but in reality the ONLY parties that mattered were the two big ones. Both Pro-Brexit.
Yet the same party got 54 seats in 2010.
Your argument is rubbish, the Lib Dems campaigned on an anti-Brexit ticket and got well and truly stuffed.
I see Remainers are letting themselves get all overexcited again this morning.
Golden rule of Brexit is that the better Remainers think something is for them, the worse it plays for them in the country:
- Obama - Osborne and his various predictions of doom - Debates - The actual vote - Gina Miller's Legal challenge - The GE - Keir Starmer
You'd think they'd have learned by now...
I notice you ignore Mrs. May's vanity project election on June 8th -
'The GE', as referenced above, which hasn't changed govt Brexit policy one bit.
As I say, Remainers get overexcited. They've forgotten how to reason about this issue.
People voted to leave, and leave we shall. Rejoice.
TMay went into the election to secure mandate for her Brexit plans. The was the expressed purpose for going to the country 3 years early. She failed to get a majority and therefore for has no mandate.
Some would argue that the later general election supersedes the advisory referendum.
And at that election people voted overwhelmingly for parties that were explicit that Brexit should and would happen and would be of the harder variety.
It is not like there was much choice Richard - excepting Scotland and the SNP (different politics because of Indy) it was vote Pro-Brexit Tory or Pro-Brexit Labour.
Have you forgotten the Lib Dems? I know they are an irrelevance these days but they did still participate
No I did not forget the LibDems. Whilst I would like to see them get more votes I do not think anyone ever believes that the LDs could be the largest party. There was a brief flash in the 80s with the LD/SDP but that was it.
Yes but they were the anti-Brexit vote, you said people did not have much choice but they did.
Voting for a party that has zero chance of being elected to govt is not a choice. You can argue the semantics of it all day long but in reality the ONLY parties that mattered were the two big ones. Both Pro-Brexit.
Yet the same party got 54 seats in 2010.
Your argument is rubbish, the Lib Dems campaigned on an anti-Brexit ticket and got well and truly stuffed.
Fair enough. I do not care enough to argue about debating points, so you win. Well done.
I see Remainers are letting themselves get all overexcited again this morning.
Golden rule of Brexit is that the better Remainers think something is for them, the worse it plays for them in the country:
- Obama - Osborne and his various predictions of doom - Debates - The actual vote - Gina Miller's Legal challenge - The GE - Keir Starmer
You'd think they'd have learned by now...
I notice you ignore Mrs. May's vanity project election on June 8th -
'The GE', as referenced above, which hasn't changed govt Brexit policy one bit.
As I say, Remainers get overexcited. They've forgotten how to reason about this issue.
People voted to leave, and leave we shall. Rejoice.
TMay went into the election to secure mandate for her Brexit plans. The was the expressed purpose for going to the country 3 years early. She failed to get a majority and therefore for has no mandate.
Some would argue that the later general election supersedes the advisory referendum.
And at that election people voted overwhelmingly for parties that were explicit that Brexit should and would happen and would be of the harder variety.
It is not like there was much choice Richard - excepting Scotland and the SNP (different politics because of Indy) it was vote Pro-Brexit Tory or Pro-Brexit Labour.
Have you forgotten the Lib Dems? I know they are an irrelevance these days but they did still participate
No I did not forget the LibDems. Whilst I would like to see them get more votes I do not think anyone ever believes that the LDs could be the largest party. There was a brief flash in the 80s with the LD/SDP but that was it.
Yes but they were the anti-Brexit vote, you said people did not have much choice but they did.
Voting for a party that has zero chance of being elected to govt is not a choice. You can argue the semantics of it all day long but in reality the ONLY parties that mattered were the two big ones. Both Pro-Brexit.
Yet the same party got 54 seats in 2010.
Your argument is rubbish, the Lib Dems campaigned on an anti-Brexit ticket and got well and truly stuffed.
57, actually, although that was 5 down on their peak of 62. 11 of those were in Scotland.
I see Remainers are letting themselves get all overexcited again this morning.
Golden rule of Brexit is that the better Remainers think something is for them, the worse it plays for them in the country:
- Obama - Osborne and his various predictions of doom - Debates - The actual vote - Gina Miller's Legal challenge - The GE - Keir Starmer
You'd think they'd have learned by now...
I notice you ignore Mrs. May's vanity project election on June 8th -
'The GE', as referenced above, which hasn't changed govt Brexit policy one bit.
As I say, Remainers get overexcited. They've forgotten how to reason about this issue.
People voted to leave, and leave we shall. Rejoice.
TMay went into the election to secure mandate for her Brexit plans. The was the expressed purpose for going to the country 3 years early. She failed to get a majority and therefore for has no mandate.
Some would argue that the later general election supersedes the advisory referendum.
85% voted for pRties backing Brexit. The LibDems, backing Remain, didn't do that well
For the last 12 months or so LibDemVoice has made for enjoyable reading. They actually thought the 48% who voted Remain would flock to them. The level of delusion is quite sad really.
We don't know what the origin of this story is. If its Theresa May, its the result of collywobbles over facing the Tory conference, and is generally unwise since as Queen Elizabeth 1 once observed, no one is much interested in the setting sun. It renders her even more of a lame duck than she is already. If the story originates from those jockeying for her job, then its a clever move since unless she specifically denies it, it would make her departure in August 2019 inevitable. The Tories need to think outside the box over who succeeds her. The current crop of frontliners are general election losers.
I see Remainers are letting themselves get all overexcited again this morning.
Golden rule of Brexit is that the better Remainers think something is for them, the worse it plays for them in the country:
- Obama - Osborne and his various predictions of doom - Debates - The actual vote - Gina Miller's Legal challenge - The GE - Keir Starmer
You'd think they'd have learned by now...
I notice you ignore Mrs. May's vanity project election on June 8th -
'The GE', as referenced above, which hasn't changed govt Brexit policy one bit.
As I say, Remainers get overexcited. They've forgotten how to reason about this issue.
People voted to leave, and leave we shall. Rejoice.
TMay went into the election to secure mandate for her Brexit plans. The was the expressed purpose for going to the country 3 years early. She failed to get a majority and therefore for has no mandate.
Some would argue that the later general election supersedes the advisory referendum.
85% voted for pRties backing Brexit. The LibDems, backing Remain, didn't do that well
That is a red herring as the BES post election data shows. LAB got the anti Brexit votes in key marginals where it mattered.
Sure, but if you are going to witter on about "mandates" you need to look at the manifesto for the official statement of the party's position
We don't know what the origin of this story is. If its Theresa May, its the result of collywobbles over facing the Tory conference, and is generally unwise since as Queen Elizabeth 1 once observed, no one is much interested in the setting sun. It renders her even more of a lame duck than she is already. If the story originates from those jockeying for her job, then its a clever move since unless she specifically denies it, it would make her departure in August 2019 inevitable. The Tories need to think outside the box over who succeeds her. The current crop of frontliners are general election losers.
There I disagree. I think Johnson would win an election if he held it very soon (one month max) after becoming PM. Corbyn and Trump have shown us that noisy populists don't have to have a clue what they're talking about to do well, as long as they promise what their voters want, and Johnson is good at that - indeed, as somebody who is also intelligent, unlike those two, there is a real chance he would do better.
However, Johnson as PM would be the second worst option for the country, just behind Corbyn. So I agree there needs to be someone else.
We don't know what the origin of this story is. If its Theresa May, its the result of collywobbles over facing the Tory conference, and is generally unwise since as Queen Elizabeth 1 once observed, no one is much interested in the setting sun. It renders her even more of a lame duck than she is already. If the story originates from those jockeying for her job, then its a clever move since unless she specifically denies it, it would make her departure in August 2019 inevitable. The Tories need to think outside the box over who succeeds her. The current crop of frontliners are general election losers.
As opposed to Corbyn who has already proved he is a general election loser even if he did not lose as badly as predicted
Labour going for "soft" Brexit makes them the party of business, which is a strange place for a party led by Jeremy Corbyn.
Maybe not so strange. I was at a dinner in the home counties last week. The only outspoken Tory was a teacher. The small business owners were all pro Labour. Small sample size but it was quite eye opening.
It's hard to see why any small business owner would support a Corbyn-led party. They'd be under the cosh, if Corbyn became PM.
it's also hard to see why they'd support the conservatives
The Conservatives may not be that great, but they're not giving them a hard time.
That wasn't the perception of the ones I was talking to. Though of course there are several million small business owners so finding 4 of them sympathetic to Labour is not proof of anything very much. It was curious though to hear the public sector worker arguing that leaving the EU would open us to a wider world and the traders saying they really wanted to keep in step with EU regulations. The conclusion I drew was that neither of the big parties could rely on automatic support from their natural base. If so the days of triangulation might be over. That might be a good thing. Making a positive case for why people should vote for your party sounds a lot healthier than just demonising the enemy.
I agree. It must be a good thing that if you're a Tory, you can't assume that people living in posh houses will vote for you, regardless, at the same time as assuming there's no point campaigning in council estates, and the same goes for Labour in reverse.
From campaigning in 3 elections this year, including my own and from the polling evidence I can confirm that while the posher houses are slightly more likely to vote Tory than the less posh there are plenty of Remainer Left Liberals in big houses and plenty of working class Eurosceptics now voting Tory in pretty modest houses (even a few on council estates)
A far better indicator of voting intention is now age rather than social class
But age no longer the best guide to turnout as most of the pollsters discovered on June 8th
The old still turned out in greater numbers than the young even if more of the young voted than in 2015
I see that Sam, one of the shrewdest gamblers I have ever known, has been banned for some ridiculously trivial post.
A pity. If it's that Sam, his comments on gambling were more perceptive and knowledgeable than mine could ever be.
I treat PB as a betting website with added debate, not a political forum with gambling tips. I hope OGH will consider letting minor offenders back in eventually, especially gambling experts.
Even MPs who say or do outrageous things are named but allowed back into the HoC after a period of 'disgrace'. Like this one ... what became of him, I wonder
I see Remainers are letting themselves get all overexcited again this morning.
Golden rule of Brexit is that the better Remainers think something is for them, the worse it plays for them in the country:
- Obama - Osborne and his various predictions of doom - Debates - The actual vote - Gina Miller's Legal challenge - The GE - Keir Starmer
You'd think they'd have learned by now...
I'm a Remainer (in spirit and heart even though it's not possible now in practice) and I can honestly say that I didn't get even slightly excited about any of the stuff on your list. I've had a feeling of impending doom throughout the entire process and I still do. 52% of the UK voted to leave the EU and there's nothing to be done about it. That has to be respected. So we Remainers are finished - unless something totally unforeseen happens. That's the reality as I see it.
Thank you for using the word Remainer rather than the taunting Remoaner word that so many of your less thoughtful fellow winners use to kick us while we are down. That one really vicious word, especially when used in the printed media and on TV, is quite high (in my opinion) on the list of reasons why the country is not showing any signs of uniting.
You've clearly had a far more mature response to the referendum result than others. Kudos.
I'm trying to move on too - we won, and should be happy with that. I suspect years of belittling and months of attempts to undermine the result rankle with some, but I'm finding it all rather juvenile and easy to come past now.. But I hope we can all grow up a bit soon, and move away from calling the prime minister malevolent or wrongly auggesting Leavers are comparing the EU to Nazi Germany when they're in fact rejoicing in the spirit and heritage of our nation, or indeed, calling those who lost Remoaners.
The term Remoaners is not a term for those who lost (not as far as I'm concerned anyway), it's a term for those who: a) Refuse to accept the result and will stop at little to undermine it, caring little about the affect their behaviour will have on the future well-being of our economy or our democracy b) Don't shut up about a. To be a remoaner is to remoan.
Someone who fought for our continued membership of the EU but now wants to move forward, with the emphasis on warm relations with the EU and promoting a shared European culture - even of one day re-joining the EU, is not a remoaner.
Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.
Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.
Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
We may rejoin the EEA and join EFTA in a decade or two, after a few years of falling immigration, I cannot see us ever rejoining the EU now especially if that requires joining the Eurozone
Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.
Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
errr wasnt one of the reasons we left that Britons were tired of being sidelined by Germany and France ?
Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.
Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
It doesn't strike me that you really believe this. Or even care as much as you'd like it to come across.
I see that Sam, one of the shrewdest gamblers I have ever known, has been banned for some ridiculously trivial post.
A pity. If it's that Sam, his comments on gambling were more perceptive and knowledgeable than mine could ever be.
I treat PB as a betting website with added debate, not a political forum with gambling tips. I hope OGH will consider letting minor offenders back in eventually, especially gambling experts.
Even MPs who say or do outrageous things are named but allowed back into the HoC after a period of 'disgrace'. Like this one ... what became of him, I wonder
Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.
Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
We may rejoin the EEA and join EFTA in a decade or two, after a few years of falling immigration, I cannot see us ever rejoining the EU now especially if that requires joining the Eurozone
If Cameron had understood what he was doing he'd have taken the offer of associate membership and still be in office
His career will be an interesting one to write up, so much promise and so little delivered.
Amazing to watch 18 year old Michael Schumacher Jr driving his father's 1992 Benetton around Spa, the car and track where the German won his first race 25 years ago.
Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.
Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
Our "place at the top table" in the world has the recurring effect of fits of embarrassment so bad I want to hacksaw my own head off every 3 or 4 years when the current PM crawls up the fundament of the current POTUS to reaffirm the special relationship, and the one-off (I hope) opportunity to play a very special part in the killing of several hundred thousand inoffensive and non-combatant brown people. I would be very, very happy to see my country sidelined down to a position where it was level pegging with the Faroe Islands.
Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.
Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
We may rejoin the EEA and join EFTA in a decade or two, after a few years of falling immigration, I cannot see us ever rejoining the EU now especially if that requires joining the Eurozone
I can. In fact it is extremely likely. If the government can't get leaving the single market through the Commons, we'll end up with the softest of soft Brexits. Very easy to reverse.
Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.
Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
Our "place at the top table" in the world has the recurring effect of fits of embarrassment so bad I want to hacksaw my own head off every 3 or 4 years when the current PM crawls up the fundament of the current POTUS to reaffirm the special relationship, and the one-off (I hope) opportunity to play a very special part in the killing of several hundred thousand inoffensive and non-combatant brown people. I would be very, very happy to see my country sidelined down to a position where it was level pegging with the Faroe Islands.
We often get told that we "punch above our weight" which generally means getting pounded...
Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.
Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
Our "place at the top table" in the world has the recurring effect of fits of embarrassment so bad I want to hacksaw my own head off every 3 or 4 years when the current PM crawls up the fundament of the current POTUS to reaffirm the special relationship, and the one-off (I hope) opportunity to play a very special part in the killing of several hundred thousand inoffensive and non-combatant brown people. I would be very, very happy to see my country sidelined down to a position where it was level pegging with the Faroe Islands.
Its also responsible for tens of billions being pissed away on 'foreign aid'.
A great example for Third World leaders - spend money you don't have on a vanity project.
I see that Sam, one of the shrewdest gamblers I have ever known, has been banned for some ridiculously trivial post.
A pity. If it's that Sam, his comments on gambling were more perceptive and knowledgeable than mine could ever be.
I treat PB as a betting website with added debate, not a political forum with gambling tips. I hope OGH will consider letting minor offenders back in eventually, especially gambling experts.
Even MPs who say or do outrageous things are named but allowed back into the HoC after a period of 'disgrace'. Like this one ... what became of him, I wonder
Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.
Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
We may rejoin the EEA and join EFTA in a decade or two, after a few years of falling immigration, I cannot see us ever rejoining the EU now especially if that requires joining the Eurozone
I can. In fact it is extremely likely. If the government can't get leaving the single market through the Commons, we'll end up with the softest of soft Brexits. Very easy to reverse.
Nope the EU will now focus on the Eurozone, more likely Sweden, Denmark, Poland, Hungary, the Czechs join us in EFTA than we rejoin the EU
Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.
Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
We may rejoin the EEA and join EFTA in a decade or two, after a few years of falling immigration, I cannot see us ever rejoining the EU now especially if that requires joining the Eurozone
If Cameron had understood what he was doing he'd have taken the offer of associate membership and still be in office
His career will be an interesting one to write up, so much promise and so little delivered.
Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.
Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
Our "place at the top table" in the world has the recurring effect of fits of embarrassment so bad I want to hacksaw my own head off every 3 or 4 years when the current PM crawls up the fundament of the current POTUS to reaffirm the special relationship, and the one-off (I hope) opportunity to play a very special part in the killing of several hundred thousand inoffensive and non-combatant brown people. I would be very, very happy to see my country sidelined down to a position where it was level pegging with the Faroe Islands.
We often get told that we "punch above our weight" which generally means getting pounded...
As one of the 5 permanent UN Security Council Members and with the legacy of Empire for good or ill we will always be in the upper middle tier of world powers after the US, China and Russia
Public opinion on Brexit is unchanged, 14 months on, despite hundreds of thousands of Leave voters having died off, and hundreds of thousands have teenagers joining the electoral register.
Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.
Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
We may rejoin the EEA and join EFTA in a decade or two, after a few years of falling immigration, I cannot see us ever rejoining the EU now especially if that requires joining the Eurozone
If Cameron had understood what he was doing he'd have taken the offer of associate membership and still be in office
His career will be an interesting one to write up, so much promise and so little delivered.
Associate membership would have just been 'Dave's deal' with a fancy name. Exactly the same people would have been denouncing it.
Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.
Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
Our "place at the top table" in the world has the recurring effect of fits of embarrassment so bad I want to hacksaw my own head off every 3 or 4 years when the current PM crawls up the fundament of the current POTUS to reaffirm the special relationship, and the one-off (I hope) opportunity to play a very special part in the killing of several hundred thousand inoffensive and non-combatant brown people. I would be very, very happy to see my country sidelined down to a position where it was level pegging with the Faroe Islands.
We often get told that we "punch above our weight" which generally means getting pounded...
As one of the 5 permanent UN Security Council Members and with the legacy of Empire for good or ill we will always be in the upper middle tier of world powers after the US, China and Russia
By implication you think we'll be level pegging with the EU. It's absurd.
TMay went into the election to secure mandate for her Brexit plans. The was the expressed purpose for going to the country 3 years early. She failed to get a majority and therefore for has no mandate. Some would argue that the later general election supersedes the advisory referendum.
85% voted for pRties backing Brexit. The LibDems, backing Remain, didn't do that well
That is a red herring as the BES post election data shows. LAB got the anti Brexit votes in key marginals where it mattered.
What matters is that the Conservatives won enough seats to form the government. Even if we add Labour, SNP, Plaid, Green, and Lib Dems together, they fell short.
And the hapless Lib Dems got 12 on an anti-Brexit ticket!
And the Conservative campaign is still under investigation for the illegalities they committed. I suspect we will have another general election before that one is resolved. That is the way the Conservatives work things.
Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.
Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
Our "place at the top table" in the world has the recurring effect of fits of embarrassment so bad I want to hacksaw my own head off every 3 or 4 years when the current PM crawls up the fundament of the current POTUS to reaffirm the special relationship, and the one-off (I hope) opportunity to play a very special part in the killing of several hundred thousand inoffensive and non-combatant brown people. I would be very, very happy to see my country sidelined down to a position where it was level pegging with the Faroe Islands.
We often get told that we "punch above our weight" which generally means getting pounded...
As one of the 5 permanent UN Security Council Members and with the legacy of Empire for good or ill we will always be in the upper middle tier of world powers after the US, China and Russia
By implication you think we'll be level pegging with the EU. It's absurd.
The EU would just take France's seat though the French may of course want to keep theirs
Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.
Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
We may rejoin the EEA and join EFTA in a decade or two, after a few years of falling immigration, I cannot see us ever rejoining the EU now especially if that requires joining the Eurozone
If Cameron had understood what he was doing he'd have taken the offer of associate membership and still be in office
His career will be an interesting one to write up, so much promise and so little delivered.
There should be an historical enquiry into exam-cheating at Eton.
Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.
Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
Our "place at the top table" in the world has the recurring effect of fits of embarrassment so bad I want to hacksaw my own head off every 3 or 4 years when the current PM crawls up the fundament of the current POTUS to reaffirm the special relationship, and the one-off (I hope) opportunity to play a very special part in the killing of several hundred thousand inoffensive and non-combatant brown people. I would be very, very happy to see my country sidelined down to a position where it was level pegging with the Faroe Islands.
We often get told that we "punch above our weight" which generally means getting pounded...
As one of the 5 permanent UN Security Council Members and with the legacy of Empire for good or ill we will always be in the upper middle tier of world powers after the US, China and Russia
By implication you think we'll be level pegging with the EU. It's absurd.
Until 1971 Taiwan had a permanent seat on the UNSC.
I would gently suggest that even if the EU does supersede France, as they clearly intend to and as they have tried to in the past, we will still carry more clout than Taiwan. All other considerations of military, geographic and economic strengths aside, it is unlikely the EU would invade us to re-establish hegemony or the EU be recognised as the UK.
Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.
Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
We may rejoin the EEA and join EFTA in a decade or two, after a few years of falling immigration, I cannot see us ever rejoining the EU now especially if that requires joining the Eurozone
If Cameron had understood what he was doing he'd have taken the offer of associate membership and still be in office
His career will be an interesting one to write up, so much promise and so little delivered.
There should be an historical enquiry into exam-cheating at Eton.
And Oxford, given he was ranked in the top five for his year. The fact that one of the candidates who beat him was Ed Balls says quite a lot about the limited intellect of all the others.
TMay went into the election to secure mandate for her Brexit plans. The was the expressed purpose for going to the country 3 years early. She failed to get a majority and therefore for has no mandate. Some would argue that the later general election supersedes the advisory referendum.
85% voted for pRties backing Brexit. The LibDems, backing Remain, didn't do that well
That is a red herring as the BES post election data shows. LAB got the anti Brexit votes in key marginals where it mattered.
What matters is that the Conservatives won enough seats to form the government. Even if we add Labour, SNP, Plaid, Green, and Lib Dems together, they fell short.
And the hapless Lib Dems got 12 on an anti-Brexit ticket!
And the Conservative campaign is still under investigation for the illegalities they committed. I suspect we will have another general election before that one is resolved. That is the way the Conservatives work things.
That doesn't come close to explaining the collapse in Lib Dem support in seats where until recently, they were strong or competitive.
Both Ashes sides getting a work out from sides they are guilty of underrating! Good news.
Scarcely believeable facts - Twitter did not exist when Australia and Bangladesh last played a Test, Tony Blair was Prime Minister and Lehman Brothers were still operating.
Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.
Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
We may rejoin the EEA and join EFTA in a decade or two, after a few years of falling immigration, I cannot see us ever rejoining the EU now especially if that requires joining the Eurozone
I can. In fact it is extremely likely. If the government can't get leaving the single market through the Commons, we'll end up with the softest of soft Brexits. Very easy to reverse.
But is that how it works? We strike a deal which must br ratified through multiple parliaments. If the ratification fails does that not put us into no deal crash out territory rather than the softest of soft brexits?
Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.
Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
We may rejoin the EEA and join EFTA in a decade or two, after a few years of falling immigration, I cannot see us ever rejoining the EU now especially if that requires joining the Eurozone
If Cameron had understood what he was doing he'd have taken the offer of associate membership and still be in office
His career will be an interesting one to write up, so much promise and so little delivered.
Associate membership would have just been 'Dave's deal' with a fancy name. Exactly the same people would have been denouncing it.
Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.
Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
Our "place at the top table" in the world has the recurring effect of fits of embarrassment so bad I want to hacksaw my own head off every 3 or 4 years when the current PM crawls up the fundament of the current POTUS to reaffirm the special relationship, and the one-off (I hope) opportunity to play a very special part in the killing of several hundred thousand inoffensive and non-combatant brown people. I would be very, very happy to see my country sidelined down to a position where it was level pegging with the Faroe Islands.
We often get told that we "punch above our weight" which generally means getting pounded...
As one of the 5 permanent UN Security Council Members and with the legacy of Empire for good or ill we will always be in the upper middle tier of world powers after the US, China and Russia
By implication you think we'll be level pegging with the EU. It's absurd.
You misunderstand. Post Brexit, the Empire will have no need of the UN. Johnny Foreigner will resume their proper function of pretending to not understand English whilst flocking to us to offer up the riches of world.
TMay went into the election to secure mandate for her Brexit plans. The was the expressed purpose for going to the country 3 years early. She failed to get a majority and therefore for has no mandate. Some would argue that the later general election supersedes the advisory referendum.
85% voted for pRties backing Brexit. The LibDems, backing Remain, didn't do that well
That is a red herring as the BES post election data shows. LAB got the anti Brexit votes in key marginals where it mattered.
What matters is that the Conservatives won enough seats to form the government. Even if we add Labour, SNP, Plaid, Green, and Lib Dems together, they fell short.
And the hapless Lib Dems got 12 on an anti-Brexit ticket!
And the Conservative campaign is still under investigation for the illegalities they committed. I suspect we will have another general election before that one is resolved. That is the way the Conservatives work things.
Did they accept £2.4m from a single donor, then when that donor was convicted of fraud refuse to give it back?
Public opinion on Brexit is unchanged, 14 months on, despite hundreds of thousands of Leave voters having died off, and hundreds of thousands have teenagers joining the electoral register.
Quite. This theory that the public becomes necessarily both more left wing and more pro-EU simply as the result of the passage of time is specious nonsense.
Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.
Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
Our "place at the top table" in the world has the recurring effect of fits of embarrassment so bad I want to hacksaw my own head off every 3 or 4 years when the current PM crawls up the fundament of the current POTUS to reaffirm the special relationship, and the one-off (I hope) opportunity to play a very special part in the killing of several hundred thousand inoffensive and non-combatant brown people. I would be very, very happy to see my country sidelined down to a position where it was level pegging with the Faroe Islands.
We often get told that we "punch above our weight" which generally means getting pounded...
As one of the 5 permanent UN Security Council Members and with the legacy of Empire for good or ill we will always be in the upper middle tier of world powers after the US, China and Russia
By implication you think we'll be level pegging with the EU. It's absurd.
You misunderstand. Post Brexit, the Empire will have no need of the UN. Johnny Foreigner will resume their proper function of pretending to not understand English whilst flocking to us to offer up the riches of world.
Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.
Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
We may rejoin the EEA and join EFTA in a decade or two, after a few years of falling immigration, I cannot see us ever rejoining the EU now especially if that requires joining the Eurozone
If Cameron had understood what he was doing he'd have taken the offer of associate membership and still be in office
His career will be an interesting one to write up, so much promise and so little delivered.
Associate membership would have just been 'Dave's deal' with a fancy name. Exactly the same people would have been denouncing it.
oh dear afraid of a bit of denouncing
The point is that it wasn't a real option. Would it have meant our own trade deals? No. Would it have meant ending free movement? No. Would it have meant escaping the ECJ? No.
Brexit means the end of a semi detachmed relationship with the EU. If that's what you wanted you should have supported Dave's deal. As it is you'll to accept an end result which is not at all to your liking.
Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.
Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
We may rejoin the EEA and join EFTA in a decade or two, after a few years of falling immigration, I cannot see us ever rejoining the EU now especially if that requires joining the Eurozone
If Cameron had understood what he was doing he'd have taken the offer of associate membership and still be in office
His career will be an interesting one to write up, so much promise and so little delivered.
Associate membership would have just been 'Dave's deal' with a fancy name. Exactly the same people would have been denouncing it.
oh dear afraid of a bit of denouncing
The point is that it wasn't a real option. Would it have meant our own trade deals? No. Would it have meant ending free movement? No. Would it have meant escaping the ECJ? No.
Brexit means the end of a semi detachmed relationship with the EU. If that's what you wanted you should have supported Dave's deal. As it is you'll to accept an end result which is not at all to your liking.
You have no idea of what deal I might find acceptable
Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.
Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
Our "place at the top table" in the world has the recurring effect of fits of embarrassment so bad I want to hacksaw my own head off every 3 or 4 years when the current PM crawls up the fundament of the current POTUS to reaffirm the special relationship, and the one-off (I hope) opportunity to play a very special part in the killing of several hundred thousand inoffensive and non-combatant brown people. I would be very, very happy to see my country sidelined down to a position where it was level pegging with the Faroe Islands.
We often get told that we "punch above our weight" which generally means getting pounded...
As one of the 5 permanent UN Security Council Members and with the legacy of Empire for good or ill we will always be in the upper middle tier of world powers after the US, China and Russia
According to different sources, there are a lot countries not happy with the permanent 5. France may well give up it's seat to the EU, while the UK's coat is on a very shooglie peg, we do not have a really independent nuclear deterrent while our armed forces are now, after 7 years of "austerity", cost cutting and reductions, is no more than a joke. 1930's anyone? All while the Russians and PRC are expanding their military.
The US is now considered a Rogue State and a bully, Russia is being run by ex-KGB and crooks and the people are getting fed up with it, and with China, desperately trying to divert internal dissent by shows of outward nationalist militarism.
Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.
Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
We may rejoin the EEA and join EFTA in a decade or two, after a few years of falling immigration, I cannot see us ever rejoining the EU now especially if that requires joining the Eurozone
If Cameron had understood what he was doing he'd have taken the offer of associate membership and still be in office
His career will be an interesting one to write up, so much promise and so little delivered.
Associate membership would have just been 'Dave's deal' with a fancy name. Exactly the same people would have been denouncing it.
oh dear afraid of a bit of denouncing
The point is that it wasn't a real option. Would it have meant our own trade deals? No. Would it have meant ending free movement? No. Would it have meant escaping the ECJ? No.
Brexit means the end of a semi detachmed relationship with the EU. If that's what you wanted you should have supported Dave's deal. As it is you'll to accept an end result which is not at all to your liking.
You have no idea of what deal I might find acceptable
Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.
Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
We may rejoin the EEA and join EFTA in a decade or two, after a few years of falling immigration, I cannot see us ever rejoining the EU now especially if that requires joining the Eurozone
If Cameron had understood what he was doing he'd have taken the offer of associate membership and still be in office
His career will be an interesting one to write up, so much promise and so little delivered.
Associate membership would have just been 'Dave's deal' with a fancy name. Exactly the same people would have been denouncing it.
oh dear afraid of a bit of denouncing
The point is that it wasn't a real option. Would it have meant our own trade deals? No. Would it have meant ending free movement? No. Would it have meant escaping the ECJ? No.
Brexit means the end of a semi detachmed relationship with the EU. If that's what you wanted you should have supported Dave's deal. As it is you'll to accept an end result which is not at all to your liking.
You have no idea of what deal I might find acceptable
Then please enlighten me.
you are beyond enlightenment, you have made up your mind that all leavers fit your template of a leaver and for the last year and a bit you have done nothing to understand people who dont share your point of view bar to shut debate down
TMay went into the election to secure mandate for her Brexit plans. The was the expressed purpose for going to the country 3 years early. She failed to get a majority and therefore for has no mandate. Some would argue that the later general election supersedes the advisory referendum.
85% voted for pRties backing Brexit. The LibDems, backing Remain, didn't do that well
That is a red herring as the BES post election data shows. LAB got the anti Brexit votes in key marginals where it mattered.
What matters is that the Conservatives won enough seats to form the government. Even if we add Labour, SNP, Plaid, Green, and Lib Dems together, they fell short.
And the hapless Lib Dems got 12 on an anti-Brexit ticket!
And the Conservative campaign is still under investigation for the illegalities they committed. I suspect we will have another general election before that one is resolved. That is the way the Conservatives work things.
That doesn't come close to explaining the collapse in Lib Dem support in seats where until recently, they were strong or competitive.
There seems to be at least 10% of the electorate who vote for what they see as the anti-establishment option.
The LibDems traditionally picked up this vote but after 2010 lost it to UKIP, Greens and SNATs and in 2017 Corbynite Labour scooped up most of it.
Assuming of course that nobody changes their mind.
As one of the constants in British life is a dislike of change, the change of Brexit is likely tobe unpopular. Between this and the demographic change (including a couple of million naturalising EU citizens) I am confident that we will have at least one of the big two parties campaigning on a rejoin manifesto before I retire. Britons will soon tire of being sidelined.
Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
Our "place at the top table" in the world has the recurring effect of fits of embarrassment so bad I want to hacksaw my own head off every 3 or 4 years when the current PM crawls up the fundament of the current POTUS to reaffirm the special relationship, and the one-off (I hope) opportunity to play a very special part in the killing of several hundred thousand inoffensive and non-combatant brown people. I would be very, very happy to see my country sidelined down to a position where it was level pegging with the Faroe Islands.
We often get told that we "punch above our weight" which generally means getting pounded...
As one of the 5 permanent UN Security Council Members and with the legacy of Empire for good or ill we will always be in the upper middle tier of world powers after the US, China and Russia
TMay went into the election to secure mandate for her Brexit plans. The was the expressed purpose for going to the country 3 years early. She failed to get a majority and therefore for has no mandate. Some would argue that the later general election supersedes the advisory referendum.
85% voted for pRties backing Brexit. The LibDems, backing Remain, didn't do that well
That is a red herring as the BES post election data shows. LAB got the anti Brexit votes in key marginals where it mattered.
What matters is that the Conservatives won enough seats to form the government. Even if we add Labour, SNP, Plaid, Green, and Lib Dems together, they fell short.
And the hapless Lib Dems got 12 on an anti-Brexit ticket!
And the Conservative campaign is still under investigation for the illegalities they committed. I suspect we will have another general election before that one is resolved. That is the way the Conservatives work things.
That doesn't come close to explaining the collapse in Lib Dem support in seats where until recently, they were strong or competitive.
There seems to be at least 10% of the electorate who vote for what they see as the anti-establishment option.
The LibDems traditionally picked up this vote but after 2010 lost it to UKIP, Greens and SNATs and in 2017 Corbynite Labour scooped up most of it.
That is so. Plus, there's a eurosceptic vote in the South West that went from Lib Dem to UKIP to Conservative.
Comments
Just the tiny problem of not being in Govt, eh?
That's precisly the point. Labour does not have to deliver. The Tories do. They have promised that the Brexit Britain they are taking us to will be a fairer, more prosperous country. That's what they'll be judged on.
Vodafone for one are already moaning about the cost of the EU abolition of roaming charges. How soon after Brexit will those charges be re-imposed? An awful lot of voters take foreign .... i.e. EU holidays.
Immaterial as we won't be able to fly anywhere
1) Create more wealth
2) Live within their means
3) Increase their savings ratio
but what people tend to want to do is:
1) Consume more wealth
2) Live to the style they think they deserve
3) Be given more money
I don't think it would be easy to reintroduce charges post brexit. OTOH we will presumably get proper duty free again.
Vodafone for one are already moaning about the cost of the EU abolition of roaming charges. How soon after Brexit will those charges be re-imposed? An awful lot of voters take foreign .... i.e. EU holidays.
Immaterial as we won't be able to fly anywhere
I assume the Channel Tunnel and the ferries are going to continue to operate.
Immaterial as we won't be able to fly anywhere
I assume the Channel Tunnel and the ferries are going to continue to operate.'
It is not straw clutching, the only parties which explicitly backed soft Brexit were the LDs, who lost voteshare and won only 12 seats and the SNP who lost both voteshare and seats
Seriously, as someone who has investements in a company with foreign villas I’m a bit worried.
Immaterial as we won't be able to fly anywhere
I assume the Channel Tunnel and the ferries are going to continue to operate.
Mike if straw clutching were an Olympic sport you would be the gold medal winner.
A far better indicator of voting intention is now age rather than social class
Just to confirm, it's ok to call someone "contemptible" but not to use s derogatory term about them based on how they voted last year?
Oh well.... enjoy the savings because you will need them to pay for the higher costs of flying.
Up to 497 - theoretically could get 500 this innings...
Your argument is rubbish, the Lib Dems campaigned on an anti-Brexit ticket and got well and truly stuffed.
But if you vote for a party, you do give them free reign to implement their policies if they win. In my particular case that was useful as Plaid in coalition were unable to pursue independence but did get law making powers and focussed badger culling. But if they had formed a government and held an independence referendum I could have had no grounds for complaint although I could have voted differently next time (although as it happens I haven't lived Ina seat with a Plaid candidate since).
Labour voters voted for a fairly stiff Brexit. If they didn't realise that, then you have to wonder what they were on at the time given Labour made no secret of it. However, they may legitimately have thought it was less important than other issues (pay, debt, housing).
The irony is if Labour genuinely are ditching their policy, it has come too late to make the difference their voters wanted
"every year that Britain’s transition agreement lasts is a year that, demographically speaking, the country becomes more pro-Remain."
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/08/why-labours-new-brexit-stance-could-change-everything
2016 48% Remain
Do I need to explain how that change happened ?
Clue: Do you think the people who voted in both 1975 and 2016 became more pro-Remain or not ?
Tick, tock.
If the story originates from those jockeying for her job, then its a clever move since unless she specifically denies it, it would make her departure in August 2019 inevitable.
The Tories need to think outside the box over who succeeds her. The current crop of frontliners are general election losers.
However, Johnson as PM would be the second worst option for the country, just behind Corbyn. So I agree there needs to be someone else.
I treat PB as a betting website with added debate, not a political forum with gambling tips. I hope OGH will consider letting minor offenders back in eventually, especially gambling experts.
Even MPs who say or do outrageous things are named but allowed back into the HoC after a period of 'disgrace'. Like this one ... what became of him, I wonder
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/82544.stm
a) Refuse to accept the result and will stop at little to undermine it, caring little about the affect their behaviour will have on the future well-being of our economy or our democracy
b) Don't shut up about a. To be a remoaner is to remoan.
Someone who fought for our continued membership of the EU but now wants to move forward, with the emphasis on warm relations with the EU and promoting a shared European culture - even of one day re-joining the EU, is not a remoaner.
Sunday lunch in the glorious sunshine is on its way. Bootiful.
Macron now less popular than Mrs May ?
http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/2017/08/26/01002-20170826LIVWWW00033-en-direct-le-live-politique-du-week-end-des-26-et-27-aout-2017.php
His career will be an interesting one to write up, so much promise and so little delivered.
A great example for Third World leaders - spend money you don't have on a vanity project.
Australia 18/3.
I would gently suggest that even if the EU does supersede France, as they clearly intend to and as they have tried to in the past, we will still carry more clout than Taiwan. All other considerations of military, geographic and economic strengths aside, it is unlikely the EU would invade us to re-establish hegemony or the EU be recognised as the UK.
Scarcely believeable facts - Twitter did not exist when Australia and Bangladesh last played a Test, Tony Blair was Prime Minister and Lehman Brothers were still operating.
They have never lost a Test on a first innings lead of more than 133.
England need something rather special here. If Malan, Westley and Stoneman fancy plane tickets to Oz, the time to score runs is now.
Brexit means the end of a semi detachmed relationship with the EU. If that's what you wanted you should have supported Dave's deal. As it is you'll to accept an end result which is not at all to your liking.
The US is now considered a Rogue State and a bully, Russia is being run by ex-KGB and crooks and the people are getting fed up with it, and with China, desperately trying to divert internal dissent by shows of outward nationalist militarism.
The LibDems traditionally picked up this vote but after 2010 lost it to UKIP, Greens and SNATs and in 2017 Corbynite Labour scooped up most of it.