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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The 2017 general election: The most profitable general electio

SystemSystem Posts: 11,700
edited June 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The 2017 general election: The most profitable general election ever for the bookies

I can only speak confidently for Ladbrokes (and Corals!) but the 2017 general election was almost certainly the most profitable in history for UK bookies. After the bloodbath of a Tory majority in 2015, we managed to win most of that back with the result on Thursday.

Read the full story here


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  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    First
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    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    First like the Tories but Labour claim victory!
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,894
    edited June 2017
    OT

    Remainiacs are over-playing their hands, They see this election result as not just a chance to water down Brexit but to stop it altogether.

    Anyone that wants even the softest Brexit to happen has got to rally around Theresa May... Anything else will see the elites snatch this away from us.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,563
    edited June 2017
    FPT
    Alistair said:

    Mr. Eagles, is it about the urbanisation process of the medieval and Renaissance periods? The burhs of Alfred the Great? The oppido of the Romans?

    The afternoon thread is a must read for anyone who bet on the election.
    Is there a minimum ROI you needed to make? I may have mentioned it but I was only at a mere 50%
    Nah, only if you tipped in a thread header SCon to win > 9.5 seats at 20/1 at William Hill
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,995
    Third (rate) like May.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,205
    50-1 on Labour in Hallam? The 25-1 I got doesn't look quite so good now.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,563
    tlg86 said:

    50-1 on Labour in Hallam? The 25-1 I got doesn't look quite so good now.

    Oh it does, trust me.
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
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    scotslassscotslass Posts: 912
    Even 'The Donald' is more in touch with reality than Theresa May. What he actually said was not no state visit until the Briitsh public supports him coming but no state visit until the British public supports her staying!
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    FPT

    Alistair said:

    Mr. Eagles, is it about the urbanisation process of the medieval and Renaissance periods? The burhs of Alfred the Great? The oppido of the Romans?

    The afternoon thread is a must read for anyone who bet on the election.
    Is there a minimum ROI you needed to make? I may have mentioned it but I was only at a mere 50%
    Nah, only if you tipped in a thread header SCon to win > 9.5 seats at 20/1 at William Hill
    Very kind of you to remind everyone that I was the first to tip that - thank you.
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    scotslass said:

    Even 'The Donald' is more in touch with reality than Theresa May. What he actually said was not no state visit until the Briitsh public supports him coming but no state visit until the British public supports her staying!

    She is NOT a winner! Why would he want anything to do with her now?
  • Options
    No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 3,845
    I placed the following bets during the campaign:
    Early on:
    Lib Dems less than 27.5 seats at 5/6 - won
    Lib Dems range 11 - 19 seats at 3/1 - won
    Labour to win Bristol West at 7/4 - won
    During the campaign as "insurance":
    Conservatives in Twickenham at 6/4 - lost
    Labour in Cambridge at 10/3 - won
    Labour in Bermondsey at 5/4 - won
    Just before end of campaign:
    Lib Dems in East Dunbartonshire at 4/6 - won
    Lib Dems in North Norfolk at 13/8 - won

    Slightly better than doubled my (small amount of) money.

  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,894
    Here's The Master Strategist gloating at the position of Theresa May and the Conservative Party;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xdxs-oH3cOE

    Hope Tory members keep this in their grudge bank and make sure this ghastly man can never make a comeback.

    I'd vote for Jezza every day of week and twice on Sundays over Osborne.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,779

    First like the Tories but Labour claim victory!

    They may be first but they also lost what they had - their Majority.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,995
    Scott_P said:
    Wants to be the only powerful Orange Man in town? I'll get my coat...
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,927
    FPT, Nunu, telling voters in Mansfield and Leeds East that they live in "shitholes' won't produce a Conservative majority.

    They need to win both in places like Mansfield and Kensington.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,874
    Sean_F said:

    FPT, Nunu, telling voters in Mansfield and Leeds East that they live in "shitholes' won't produce a Conservative majority.

    They need to win both in places like Mansfield and Kensington.

    The Tory party suddenly appear to be the party of homophobic hard Brexit.

    That ain't gonna win back Kensington.
  • Options
    No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 3,845

    First like the Tories but Labour claim victory!

    A bit like the Scottish Tories on 13 seats claiming victory over the SNP with 35, then?
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,205
    edited June 2017
    GIN1138 said:

    Here's The Master Strategist gloating at the position of Theresa May and the Conservative Party;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xdxs-oH3cOE

    Hope Tory members keep this in their grudge bank and make sure this ghastly man can never make a comeback.

    I'd vote for Jezza every day of week and twice on Sundays over Osborne.

    "I feel well out of it"

    There you go, that's all you need to know about this ****. What Tory Remainers need to remember is that having cried wolf over Brexit, the voters are no longer scared by claims about what a nasty man Jeremy Corbyn is and how terrible things will be if he ever comes to power.

    May's dreadful, but Osborne's very much played his part in all of this.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    I'd like to thank all the seat-by-seat tipsters but mostly whoever posted the links to the Prosser and BES research which pointed the way to Survation and Yougov being the pollsters to follow. I still have it summarised on a card next to my pc.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,927
    GIN1138 said:

    Here's The Master Strategist gloating at the position of Theresa May and the Conservative Party;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xdxs-oH3cOE

    Hope Tory members keep this in their grudge bank and make sure this ghastly man can never make a comeback.

    I'd vote for Jezza every day of week and twice on Sundays over Osborne.

    I campaigned for the Conservatives and voted for them, and would do so again, but I won't rejoin. The reason is they love nothing more than forming a circular firing squad, and settling scores against each other.

    You hang together, or you hang separately.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,894
    edited June 2017

    Sean_F said:

    FPT, Nunu, telling voters in Mansfield and Leeds East that they live in "shitholes' won't produce a Conservative majority.

    They need to win both in places like Mansfield and Kensington.

    The Tory party suddenly appear to be the party of homophobic hard Brexit.

    That ain't gonna win back Kensington.
    Cameron and Osborne were sounding out the homophobic DUP about an "arrangement" before the 2015 election?
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,874
    edited June 2017
    GIN1138 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FPT, Nunu, telling voters in Mansfield and Leeds East that they live in "shitholes' won't produce a Conservative majority.

    They need to win both in places like Mansfield and Kensington.

    The Tory party suddenly appear to be the party of homophobic hard Brexit.

    That ain't gonna win back Kensington.
    Cameron and Osborne were sounding out the homophobic DUP about an "arrangement" before the 2015 election?
    Perception is reality.

    Edit: Cameron invested political capital in gay marriage. May invested political capital in castigating the "citizens of nowhere".

    Hate breeds hate.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited June 2017

    FPT

    Alistair said:

    Mr. Eagles, is it about the urbanisation process of the medieval and Renaissance periods? The burhs of Alfred the Great? The oppido of the Romans?

    The afternoon thread is a must read for anyone who bet on the election.
    Is there a minimum ROI you needed to make? I may have mentioned it but I was only at a mere 50%
    Nah, only if you tipped in a thread header SCon to win > 9.5 seats at 20/1 at William Hill
    Im a Sad panda due to laying off 150 pounds worth of profit on that bet.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,128
    And me !

    Constituency betting is certainly the way to go, all you have to do is follow the demographic trends.

    And thanks to Shadsy and the other bookies.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    If I may return to June 9th and TM's visit to the Palace. Contrary to what most people believe there was no constitutional requirement for her to do that - PMs are not reappointed after General Elections under our system but simply carry on in office or resign to make way for someone else. The visit to see the Queen,therefore, was more out of courtesy and to inform the monarch of her intentions given the unclear election outcome. It was certainly not a question of 'TM seeking permission to form a Government'. Thatcher did not visit the Palace when re-elected in 1983 & 1987 - neither did Wilson in 1966 & October 1974. Blair seems to have begun this new tendency by going to the Palace when re-elected in 2001 & 2005. Cameron followed his example in 2015 - but it really is more of a photo-opportunity than something the PM is obliged to do. There is a lot of ignorance on this extending to jounalists such as Laura Kuensberg!
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,894
    Sean_F said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Here's The Master Strategist gloating at the position of Theresa May and the Conservative Party;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xdxs-oH3cOE

    Hope Tory members keep this in their grudge bank and make sure this ghastly man can never make a comeback.

    I'd vote for Jezza every day of week and twice on Sundays over Osborne.

    I campaigned for the Conservatives and voted for them, and would do so again, but I won't rejoin. The reason is they love nothing more than forming a circular firing squad, and settling scores against each other.

    You hang together, or you hang separately.
    The Tories are an awful bunch really.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,927

    Sean_F said:

    FPT, Nunu, telling voters in Mansfield and Leeds East that they live in "shitholes' won't produce a Conservative majority.

    They need to win both in places like Mansfield and Kensington.

    The Tory party suddenly appear to be the party of homophobic hard Brexit.

    That ain't gonna win back Kensington.
    If the Conservative Party campaign on a platform of slashing public spending and taxes, support for the EU, and social liberalism, it might well regain Kensington, but will lose a hell of a lot else.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,874
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    FPT, Nunu, telling voters in Mansfield and Leeds East that they live in "shitholes' won't produce a Conservative majority.

    They need to win both in places like Mansfield and Kensington.

    The Tory party suddenly appear to be the party of homophobic hard Brexit.

    That ain't gonna win back Kensington.
    If the Conservative Party campaign on a platform of slashing public spending and taxes, support for the EU, and social liberalism, it might well regain Kensington, but will lose a hell of a lot else.
    What about putting the country first and not seeking to exacerbate cultural divides?
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,205
    @Justin124 - I thought that was the case.

    By the way, I hope you've received apologies from those who mocked you for your analysis of the polls. In particular your point about swingback to the opposition (as in 2005) proved to be very true.
  • Options
    jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,261
    Sean_F said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Here's The Master Strategist gloating at the position of Theresa May and the Conservative Party;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xdxs-oH3cOE

    Hope Tory members keep this in their grudge bank and make sure this ghastly man can never make a comeback.

    I'd vote for Jezza every day of week and twice on Sundays over Osborne.

    I campaigned for the Conservatives and voted for them, and would do so again, but I won't rejoin. The reason is they love nothing more than forming a circular firing squad, and settling scores against each other.

    You hang together, or you hang separately.
    Sometimes I have admired their ruthlessness other times not so. Not sure what to make of the current situation and what they should do.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Betfairs Scottish Constituency odds were a joy, as was Ladbrokes Lib Dem seat bands.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,894
    edited June 2017

    GIN1138 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FPT, Nunu, telling voters in Mansfield and Leeds East that they live in "shitholes' won't produce a Conservative majority.

    They need to win both in places like Mansfield and Kensington.

    The Tory party suddenly appear to be the party of homophobic hard Brexit.

    That ain't gonna win back Kensington.
    Cameron and Osborne were sounding out the homophobic DUP about an "arrangement" before the 2015 election?
    Perception is reality.

    Edit: Cameron invested political capital in gay marriage. May invested political capital in castigating the "citizens of nowhere".

    Hate breeds hate.
    See this is what I don't get and makes me think all the "outrage" about the DUP is primailriy faux.

    It looks as though the problem with a Con/DUP arrangement is simply the optics and whether it can be sold rather than the DUP's actual views and policies otherwise people like you would be equally appalled that Cameron was cosying up to the DUP before 2015 as you are about what May is doing now.

    I can understand people being against a deal with the DUP on principle because of their bigoted views... But this idea that a deal with Cameron would've been OK because he could "sell" it just looks like pure hypocrisy to me....
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986
    edited June 2017

    And me !

    Constituency betting is certainly the way to go, all you have to do is follow the demographic trends.

    And thanks to Shadsy and the other bookies.

    I went hideously wrong on some odds on early Tory bets in England and Wales.

    But I have Corbyn to thank for Ynys Mons, Leeds NW and East Lothian. All 10-1+ winners which in themselves netted over a grand.

    I also tipped up Hallam at 25-1, unfortunately I could only get £2 on (And rebacked Clegg at 4-9) before going in again on Labour at odds against for tuppence ha'penny. The idea the Tories would take Hallam given their working class campaign was ridiculous !

    Overall I'm reasonably sure I'm up overall despite a few Tory horrors.

    10-19 seats @ 10-1 was a huge rick, unfortunately Paddy knocked me back to £50 rather than the £400 I wanted in shop :(
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,894
    edited June 2017
    isam said:
    Shame the Irish weren't invited to this debate...

    Maybe one thing to come out of any Con/DUP arrangement is that the Irish parties will get taken seriously by our arrogant broadcasters in the debates for the next election.
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    First like the Tories but Labour claim victory!

    A bit like the Scottish Tories on 13 seats claiming victory over the SNP with 35, then?
    Indeed, pyric victories all round then. I still think May should resign as how can anyone have confidence in her abilities to get the best deal for Britain. Not only is she a rubbish politician but deluded as well if she thought Labour Leave voters would come and vote Tory. She cannot keep claiming the 2016 as a mandate as it has been superseded by a more recent election in which she said Brexit was the issue it should be decided on. She did not get the increased mandate she requested.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,252

    First like the Tories but Labour claim victory!

    A bit like the Scottish Tories on 13 seats claiming victory over the SNP with 35, then?
    Not really. Labour were a LOT closer.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Gove about to make a comeback?
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,128
    Sean_F said:

    FPT, Nunu, telling voters in Mansfield and Leeds East that they live in "shitholes' won't produce a Conservative majority.

    They need to win both in places like Mansfield and Kensington.

    I fear some London Tories are raging against the dying of the light and lashing out in despair.

    The Conservatives are dying in London suburbia - if Labour hadn't antagonised middle class Hindus and Jews it would have been even worse.

    Enfield Southgate is going the way of Enfield North which is going the same way as Edmonton.
    Chingford is going the way of Ilford North which is going the same way as Ilford South.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,988
    Pulpstar said:

    And me !

    Constituency betting is certainly the way to go, all you have to do is follow the demographic trends.

    And thanks to Shadsy and the other bookies.

    I went hideously wrong on some odds on early Tory bets in England and Wales.

    But I have Corbyn to thank for Ynys Mons, Leeds NW and East Lothian. All 10-1+ winners which in themselves netted over a grand.

    I also tipped up Hallam at 25-1, unfortunately I could only get £2 on (And rebacked Clegg at 4-9) before going in again on Labour at odds against for tuppence ha'penny. The idea the Tories would take Hallam given their working class campaign was ridiculous !

    Overall I'm reasonably sure I'm up overall despite a few Tory horrors.

    10-19 seats @ 10-1 was a huge rick, unfortunately Paddy knocked me back to £50 rather than the £400 I wanted in shop :(
    One of my biggest ricks was pointing that 10-19 bet out to people before I got anything on myself
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,205
    GIN1138 said:

    isam said:
    Shame the Irish weren't invited to this debate...

    Maybe one thing to come out of any Con/DUP arrangement is that the Irish parties will get a taken serious by our arrogant broadcasters in the debates for the next election.
    Yes! I said this at the time. If that Welsh woman is invited, so should the DUP.
  • Options
    TypoTypo Posts: 195

    Sean_F said:

    FPT, Nunu, telling voters in Mansfield and Leeds East that they live in "shitholes' won't produce a Conservative majority.

    They need to win both in places like Mansfield and Kensington.

    I fear some London Tories are raging against the dying of the light and lashing out in despair.

    The Conservatives are dying in London suburbia - if Labour hadn't antagonised middle class Hindus and Jews it would have been even worse.

    Enfield Southgate is going the way of Enfield North which is going the same way as Edmonton.
    Chingford is going the way of Ilford North which is going the same way as Ilford South.
    True. Those Conservative voters aren't necessarily disappearing they have just moved elsewhere.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited June 2017
    I think I've identified the greatest political blunder of the last 2 years.

    It was David Cameron repeating his mums advice to Corbyn to put on a suit and do up his tie.
  • Options
    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    First like the Tories but Labour claim victory!

    A bit like the Scottish Tories on 13 seats claiming victory over the SNP with 35, then?
    Not really. Labour were a LOT closer.
    Sturgeon lost about half the Nat MPs. When's she resigning ?
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,988
    GIN1138 said:

    isam said:
    Shame the Irish weren't invited to this debate...

    Maybe one thing to come out of any Con/DUP arrangement is that the Irish parties will get a taken serious by our arrogant broadcasters in the debates for the next election.
    I have never paid any attention to NI politics, so am surprised to hear how awful both Sinn Fein and the DUP are, according to the experts. I always thought NI people were ok, why do they vote for such horrors?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986
    isam said:

    Pulpstar said:

    And me !

    Constituency betting is certainly the way to go, all you have to do is follow the demographic trends.

    And thanks to Shadsy and the other bookies.

    I went hideously wrong on some odds on early Tory bets in England and Wales.

    But I have Corbyn to thank for Ynys Mons, Leeds NW and East Lothian. All 10-1+ winners which in themselves netted over a grand.

    I also tipped up Hallam at 25-1, unfortunately I could only get £2 on (And rebacked Clegg at 4-9) before going in again on Labour at odds against for tuppence ha'penny. The idea the Tories would take Hallam given their working class campaign was ridiculous !

    Overall I'm reasonably sure I'm up overall despite a few Tory horrors.

    10-19 seats @ 10-1 was a huge rick, unfortunately Paddy knocked me back to £50 rather than the £400 I wanted in shop :(
    One of my biggest ricks was pointing that 10-19 bet out to people before I got anything on myself
    Yep thanks for the tip. I was in the shop at 8 am the next morning !
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,874
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FPT, Nunu, telling voters in Mansfield and Leeds East that they live in "shitholes' won't produce a Conservative majority.

    They need to win both in places like Mansfield and Kensington.

    The Tory party suddenly appear to be the party of homophobic hard Brexit.

    That ain't gonna win back Kensington.
    Cameron and Osborne were sounding out the homophobic DUP about an "arrangement" before the 2015 election?
    Perception is reality.

    Edit: Cameron invested political capital in gay marriage. May invested political capital in castigating the "citizens of nowhere".

    Hate breeds hate.
    See this is what I don't get and makes me think all the "outrage" about the DUP is primailriy faux.

    It looks as though the problem with a Con/DUP arrangement is simply the optics and whether it can be sold rather than the DUP's actual views and policies otherwise people like you would be equally appalled that Cameron was cosying up to the DUP before 2015 as you are about what May is doing now.

    I can understand people being against a deal with the DUP on principle because of their bigoted views... But this idea that a deal with Cameron would've been OK because he could "sell" it just looks like pure hypocrisy to me....
    I actually don't mind them seeking the support of the DUP. There is no choice.

    But Theresa has campaigned on avoiding a coalition of chaos, and by dividing one part of the country against another.

    Against that narrative, the DUP is a toxifying and highly unstable element.
  • Options
    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    FPT:
    Scott_P said:
    Yet another example of idiotic May is. You'd think she'd be the one to tell Trump not to come, not the other way round. Instead, she was apparently 'surprised' by this, which underlines how she must be one of the most politically tone deaf PMs we've ever had.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,128
    Typo said:

    Sean_F said:

    FPT, Nunu, telling voters in Mansfield and Leeds East that they live in "shitholes' won't produce a Conservative majority.

    They need to win both in places like Mansfield and Kensington.

    I fear some London Tories are raging against the dying of the light and lashing out in despair.

    The Conservatives are dying in London suburbia - if Labour hadn't antagonised middle class Hindus and Jews it would have been even worse.

    Enfield Southgate is going the way of Enfield North which is going the same way as Edmonton.
    Chingford is going the way of Ilford North which is going the same way as Ilford South.
    True. Those Conservative voters aren't necessarily disappearing they have just moved elsewhere.
    The Conservatives are much stronger in Essex, Kent and Hertfordshire than they were a generation ago. Studenty Canterbury being the exception.

    And there's far more 'cockney' accents heard in the likes of Mansfield and Morley than there used to be.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,252

    First like the Tories but Labour claim victory!

    A bit like the Scottish Tories on 13 seats claiming victory over the SNP with 35, then?
    Not really. Labour were a LOT closer.
    Sturgeon lost about half the Nat MPs. When's she resigning ?

    Yoon arithmetic, 21 is 'about half' of 56.

    Let's try again shall we? If Ruth has 13 seats, and Nicola has 35 seats, who won the election?'
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986

    FPT:

    Scott_P said:
    Yet another example of idiotic May is. You'd think she'd be the one to tell Trump not to come, not the other way round. Instead, she was apparently 'surprised' by this, which underlines how she must be one of the most politically tone deaf PMs we've ever had.
    The state visit is arranged, it should go ahead. Avoiding it for narrow political calclulation show the Tories are unfit to govern. Do they do everything based on tiny narrow calculation. It is starting to show and is desperately wearing, think I'd have Corbyn in now tbh - at least he has principles he sticks by.
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited June 2017
    tlg86 said:

    @Justin124 - I thought that was the case.

    By the way, I hope you've received apologies from those who mocked you for your analysis of the polls. In particular your point about swingback to the opposition (as in 2005) proved to be very true.

    That is kind of you but for me it is actually pretty much 'water off a duck's back' to be honest. Many people assumed I was being partisan when all along I was relying on my psephological knowledge supported by a very good memory! I regularly made the point that the GB figures were flattering the Tories in England & Wales given their obvious surge in Scotland. Re- the latter Labour has probably had the best result when we focus on what has now changed there. The Tories are pretty well close to the limit of what they can win there , and any further weakening of the SNP will be greatly to Labour's advantage. I can see Labour at 30% - 33% there next time and likely to win 15 to 20 seats - perhaps even beating the SNP in % vote share too.
  • Options
    calumcalum Posts: 3,046

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FPT, Nunu, telling voters in Mansfield and Leeds East that they live in "shitholes' won't produce a Conservative majority.

    They need to win both in places like Mansfield and Kensington.

    The Tory party suddenly appear to be the party of homophobic hard Brexit.

    That ain't gonna win back Kensington.
    Cameron and Osborne were sounding out the homophobic DUP about an "arrangement" before the 2015 election?
    Perception is reality.

    Edit: Cameron invested political capital in gay marriage. May invested political capital in castigating the "citizens of nowhere".

    Hate breeds hate.
    See this is what I don't get and makes me think all the "outrage" about the DUP is primailriy faux.

    It looks as though the problem with a Con/DUP arrangement is simply the optics and whether it can be sold rather than the DUP's actual views and policies otherwise people like you would be equally appalled that Cameron was cosying up to the DUP before 2015 as you are about what May is doing now.

    I can understand people being against a deal with the DUP on principle because of their bigoted views... But this idea that a deal with Cameron would've been OK because he could "sell" it just looks like pure hypocrisy to me....
    I actually don't mind them seeking the support of the DUP. There is no choice.

    But Theresa has campaigned on avoiding a coalition of chaos, and by dividing one part of the country against another.

    Against that narrative, the DUP is a toxifying and highly unstable element.
    Particularly in Scotland - SCON pretty much gone to ground !
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    leaving Toby “Last of the Maybotniks” Young to have a breakdown of his own by insisting that the strong and stable Supreme Leader really was still the strong and stable Supreme Leader. Back in Downing Street, the Maybot started typing her resignation letter. When Toby is your Praetorian Guard, it really is time to go. Toby has yet to find an argument he can understand, let alone win.

    http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussion/5086/politicalbetting-com-blog-archive-the-2017-general-election-the-most-profitable-general-electio#latest
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,927
    isam said:

    GIN1138 said:

    isam said:
    Shame the Irish weren't invited to this debate...

    Maybe one thing to come out of any Con/DUP arrangement is that the Irish parties will get a taken serious by our arrogant broadcasters in the debates for the next election.
    I have never paid any attention to NI politics, so am surprised to hear how awful both Sinn Fein and the DUP are, according to the experts. I always thought NI people were ok, why do they vote for such horrors?
    The way that Stormont is structured requires one to vote for one's own hardliners, to counter the other side's hardliners.

    At an individual level, I've liked almost every Northern Irish person I've met, and spent a really wonderful holiday in Antrim last year. The Coast is incredible.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,205
    justin124 said:

    tlg86 said:

    @Justin124 - I thought that was the case.

    By the way, I hope you've received apologies from those who mocked you for your analysis of the polls. In particular your point about swingback to the opposition (as in 2005) proved to be very true.

    That is kind of you but for me it is actually pretty much 'water off a duck's back' to be honest. Many people assumed I was being partisan when all along I was relying on my psephological knowledge supported by a very good memory! I regularly made the point that the GB figures were flattering the Tories in England & Wales given their obvious surge in Scotland. Re- the latter Labour has probably had the best result when we focus on what has now changed there. The Tories are pretty well close to the limit of what they can win there , and any further weakening of the SNP will be greatly to Labour's advantage. I can see Labour at 30% - 33% there next time and likely to win 15 to 20 seats - perhaps even beating the SNP in % vote share too.
    True, but in terms of getting into Number 10, Labour gaining off the SNP is not that much good. They'll need to take seats off of the Tories to win power.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,894

    FPT:

    Scott_P said:
    Yet another example of idiotic May is. You'd think she'd be the one to tell Trump not to come, not the other way round. Instead, she was apparently 'surprised' by this, which underlines how she must be one of the most politically tone deaf PMs we've ever had.
    Well it's possible she's had one or two other things on her mind in the past 2-3 days? ;)
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986
    Alistair said:

    I think I've identified the greatest political blunder of the last 2 years.

    It was David Cameron repeating his mums advice to Corbyn to put on a suit and do up his tie.

    He followed Dave's advice, and now look at him :D
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,927

    Typo said:

    Sean_F said:

    FPT, Nunu, telling voters in Mansfield and Leeds East that they live in "shitholes' won't produce a Conservative majority.

    They need to win both in places like Mansfield and Kensington.

    I fear some London Tories are raging against the dying of the light and lashing out in despair.

    The Conservatives are dying in London suburbia - if Labour hadn't antagonised middle class Hindus and Jews it would have been even worse.

    Enfield Southgate is going the way of Enfield North which is going the same way as Edmonton.
    Chingford is going the way of Ilford North which is going the same way as Ilford South.
    True. Those Conservative voters aren't necessarily disappearing they have just moved elsewhere.
    The Conservatives are much stronger in Essex, Kent and Hertfordshire than they were a generation ago. Studenty Canterbury being the exception.

    And there's far more 'cockney' accents heard in the likes of Mansfield and Morley than there used to be.
    Not long ago, places like Hemel Hempstead and Dartford were marginals.

    Given that Surrey and Hertfordshire were only marginally Leave, I thought the Tories might struggle in one or two seats, but not a bit. I think that a bit more than a big Remain vote was needed to beat them ( eg lots of students, anger over austerity, or social care).
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    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    I think this election outcome is the worst of all possible worlds for the Tories.

    If we had 10 less seats, we'd be out of power. Corbyn would be PM, and would have to start delivering Brexit and somehow reconciling his plans with the public finances. The Tories would be strong in Parliament, and would be able to harass and embarrass Labour on a regular basis.

    If we had 10 more seats, we'd have a majority, and the DUP would be enough for the difficult Brexit votes.

    Instead, the parliamentary arithmetic means we have no choice but to carry on in government, supported by a party who will tar us by association. We may not be able to get any Brexit settlement through Parliament thanks to our own rebels, which could lead to a chaotic exit or another election at which we would be utterly eviscerated.

    It's an utter, utter disaster. She is worse than Eden, Chamberlain and Major combined, and yet replacing her would be worse.
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,994
    tlg86 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Here's The Master Strategist gloating at the position of Theresa May and the Conservative Party;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xdxs-oH3cOE

    Hope Tory members keep this in their grudge bank and make sure this ghastly man can never make a comeback.

    I'd vote for Jezza every day of week and twice on Sundays over Osborne.

    "I feel well out of it"

    There you go, that's all you need to know about this ****. What Tory Remainers need to remember is that having cried wolf over Brexit, the voters are no longer scared by claims about what a nasty man Jeremy Corbyn is and how terrible things will be if he ever comes to power.

    May's dreadful, but Osborne's very much played his part in all of this.
    Yep. May is useless whereas Osborne is malignant.
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,128
    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    Pulpstar said:

    And me !

    Constituency betting is certainly the way to go, all you have to do is follow the demographic trends.

    And thanks to Shadsy and the other bookies.

    I went hideously wrong on some odds on early Tory bets in England and Wales.

    But I have Corbyn to thank for Ynys Mons, Leeds NW and East Lothian. All 10-1+ winners which in themselves netted over a grand.

    I also tipped up Hallam at 25-1, unfortunately I could only get £2 on (And rebacked Clegg at 4-9) before going in again on Labour at odds against for tuppence ha'penny. The idea the Tories would take Hallam given their working class campaign was ridiculous !

    Overall I'm reasonably sure I'm up overall despite a few Tory horrors.

    10-19 seats @ 10-1 was a huge rick, unfortunately Paddy knocked me back to £50 rather than the £400 I wanted in shop :(
    One of my biggest ricks was pointing that 10-19 bet out to people before I got anything on myself
    Yep thanks for the tip. I was in the shop at 8 am the next morning !
    Can you get bets on in shops even when they're not available online ?
  • Options
    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Pulpstar said:

    FPT:

    Scott_P said:
    Yet another example of idiotic May is. You'd think she'd be the one to tell Trump not to come, not the other way round. Instead, she was apparently 'surprised' by this, which underlines how she must be one of the most politically tone deaf PMs we've ever had.
    The state visit is arranged, it should go ahead. Avoiding it for narrow political calclulation show the Tories are unfit to govern. Do they do everything based on tiny narrow calculation. It is starting to show and is desperately wearing, think I'd have Corbyn in now tbh - at least he has principles he sticks by.
    It's clear from the article that it's Trump that has engineered this, not the Conservatives - unless you think the story is a lie.

    The state visit though should not go ahead. It should have never even been offered.
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited June 2017
    tlg86 said:

    justin124 said:

    tlg86 said:

    @Justin124 - I thought that was the case.

    By the way, I hope you've received apologies from those who mocked you for your analysis of the polls. In particular your point about swingback to the opposition (as in 2005) proved to be very true.

    That is kind of you but for me it is actually pretty much 'water off a duck's back' to be honest. Many people assumed I was being partisan when all along I was relying on my psephological knowledge supported by a very good memory! I regularly made the point that the GB figures were flattering the Tories in England & Wales given their obvious surge in Scotland. Re- the latter Labour has probably had the best result when we focus on what has now changed there. The Tories are pretty well close to the limit of what they can win there , and any further weakening of the SNP will be greatly to Labour's advantage. I can see Labour at 30% - 33% there next time and likely to win 15 to 20 seats - perhaps even beating the SNP in % vote share too.
    True, but in terms of getting into Number 10, Labour gaining off the SNP is not that much good. They'll need to take seats off of the Tories to win power.
    Indeed so - though there may be a few seats that might be taken from the Tories - such as East Renfrew - Ochil seat - and a seat in Ayrshire. Labour is likely to be seen now as very much 'back in the game ' in Scotland and that could well lead to Unionists who had supported the Tories for anti-SNP tactical reasons to switch back to Labour next time.
  • Options
    calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    edited June 2017
    He must be talking about another party !
    https://twitter.com/michaelgove/status/873860740213600256
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618

    tlg86 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Here's The Master Strategist gloating at the position of Theresa May and the Conservative Party;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xdxs-oH3cOE

    Hope Tory members keep this in their grudge bank and make sure this ghastly man can never make a comeback.

    I'd vote for Jezza every day of week and twice on Sundays over Osborne.

    "I feel well out of it"

    There you go, that's all you need to know about this ****. What Tory Remainers need to remember is that having cried wolf over Brexit, the voters are no longer scared by claims about what a nasty man Jeremy Corbyn is and how terrible things will be if he ever comes to power.

    May's dreadful, but Osborne's very much played his part in all of this.
    Yep. May is useless whereas Osborne is malignant.
    Osborne and Cameron won a majority in 2015.
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Pulpstar said:

    FPT:

    Scott_P said:
    Yet another example of idiotic May is. You'd think she'd be the one to tell Trump not to come, not the other way round. Instead, she was apparently 'surprised' by this, which underlines how she must be one of the most politically tone deaf PMs we've ever had.
    The state visit is arranged, it should go ahead. Avoiding it for narrow political calclulation show the Tories are unfit to govern. Do they do everything based on tiny narrow calculation. It is starting to show and is desperately wearing, think I'd have Corbyn in now tbh - at least he has principles he sticks by.
    Corbyn who sticks to his principles on Trident? All politicians are dishonest and twist and turn to suit their needs. It is factored into their price as politicians. Anything May does now will be seen for a political reason. Her own fault, totally of her own making. The tide has definitely turned on the Tories for now and will keep going in until she is removed IMO.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986

    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    Pulpstar said:

    And me !

    Constituency betting is certainly the way to go, all you have to do is follow the demographic trends.

    And thanks to Shadsy and the other bookies.

    I went hideously wrong on some odds on early Tory bets in England and Wales.

    But I have Corbyn to thank for Ynys Mons, Leeds NW and East Lothian. All 10-1+ winners which in themselves netted over a grand.

    I also tipped up Hallam at 25-1, unfortunately I could only get £2 on (And rebacked Clegg at 4-9) before going in again on Labour at odds against for tuppence ha'penny. The idea the Tories would take Hallam given their working class campaign was ridiculous !

    Overall I'm reasonably sure I'm up overall despite a few Tory horrors.

    10-19 seats @ 10-1 was a huge rick, unfortunately Paddy knocked me back to £50 rather than the £400 I wanted in shop :(
    One of my biggest ricks was pointing that 10-19 bet out to people before I got anything on myself
    Yep thanks for the tip. I was in the shop at 8 am the next morning !
    Can you get bets on in shops even when they're not available online ?
    It was available online, but you can't get on in any size if you're a marked account. You can't get on in the shop at any size either if the trader suddenly realises he's fucked up the odds.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,412

    First like the Tories but Labour claim victory!

    A bit like the Scottish Tories on 13 seats claiming victory over the SNP with 35, then?
    Not really. Labour were a LOT closer.
    Sturgeon lost about half the Nat MPs. When's she resigning ?

    Yoon arithmetic, 21 is 'about half' of 56.

    Let's try again shall we? If Ruth has 13 seats, and Nicola has 35 seats, who won the election?'
    Ruth only had 1 seat on Wednesday...
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986

    Pulpstar said:

    FPT:

    Scott_P said:
    Yet another example of idiotic May is. You'd think she'd be the one to tell Trump not to come, not the other way round. Instead, she was apparently 'surprised' by this, which underlines how she must be one of the most politically tone deaf PMs we've ever had.
    The state visit is arranged, it should go ahead. Avoiding it for narrow political calclulation show the Tories are unfit to govern. Do they do everything based on tiny narrow calculation. It is starting to show and is desperately wearing, think I'd have Corbyn in now tbh - at least he has principles he sticks by.
    It's clear from the article that it's Trump that has engineered this, not the Conservatives - unless you think the story is a lie.

    The state visit though should not go ahead. It should have never even been offered.
    I've got a hundred quid on him showing up though xD
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,779
    isam said:

    GIN1138 said:

    isam said:
    Shame the Irish weren't invited to this debate...

    Maybe one thing to come out of any Con/DUP arrangement is that the Irish parties will get a taken serious by our arrogant broadcasters in the debates for the next election.
    I have never paid any attention to NI politics, so am surprised to hear how awful both Sinn Fein and the DUP are, according to the experts. I always thought NI people were ok, why do they vote for such horrors?
    Fear, I guess. It beats all other emotions.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,994
    edited June 2017
    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Here's The Master Strategist gloating at the position of Theresa May and the Conservative Party;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xdxs-oH3cOE

    Hope Tory members keep this in their grudge bank and make sure this ghastly man can never make a comeback.

    I'd vote for Jezza every day of week and twice on Sundays over Osborne.

    "I feel well out of it"

    There you go, that's all you need to know about this ****. What Tory Remainers need to remember is that having cried wolf over Brexit, the voters are no longer scared by claims about what a nasty man Jeremy Corbyn is and how terrible things will be if he ever comes to power.

    May's dreadful, but Osborne's very much played his part in all of this.
    Yep. May is useless whereas Osborne is malignant.
    Osborne and Cameron won a majority in 2015.
    I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about his character. Much of the cause for May' s current situation lies with the decisions he made. Gloating be sure he managed to pass on the parcel before it exploded shows just what a worm he is.
  • Options
    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FPT:

    Scott_P said:
    Yet another example of idiotic May is. You'd think she'd be the one to tell Trump not to come, not the other way round. Instead, she was apparently 'surprised' by this, which underlines how she must be one of the most politically tone deaf PMs we've ever had.
    The state visit is arranged, it should go ahead. Avoiding it for narrow political calclulation show the Tories are unfit to govern. Do they do everything based on tiny narrow calculation. It is starting to show and is desperately wearing, think I'd have Corbyn in now tbh - at least he has principles he sticks by.
    It's clear from the article that it's Trump that has engineered this, not the Conservatives - unless you think the story is a lie.

    The state visit though should not go ahead. It should have never even been offered.
    I've got a hundred quid on him showing up though xD
    Oh okay....well that is a bit awkward then....
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,138
    calum said:

    He must be talking about another party !
    https://twitter.com/michaelgove/status/873860740213600256

    If only Michael Gove could become party leader ...

    They'd be out of power for 50 years.
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    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,322
    The Tories could do worse than choose Anna Soubry as their next leader. She sounded firm but fair as a talking head earlier. (Jenkin, in comparison, threw a massive strop, basically blaming the whole debacle on Osborne and Heseltine!)
  • Options
    calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    edited June 2017
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,412
    isam said:

    GIN1138 said:

    isam said:
    Shame the Irish weren't invited to this debate...

    Maybe one thing to come out of any Con/DUP arrangement is that the Irish parties will get a taken serious by our arrogant broadcasters in the debates for the next election.
    I have never paid any attention to NI politics, so am surprised to hear how awful both Sinn Fein and the DUP are, according to the experts. I always thought NI people were ok, why do they vote for such horrors?
    A pity that the Shinners don't sit at Westminster, if they did, the Coalition of Chaos would have 322 seats.
  • Options
    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited June 2017
    RoyalBlue said:

    I think this election outcome is the worst of all possible worlds for the Tories.

    If we had 10 less seats, we'd be out of power. Corbyn would be PM, and would have to start delivering Brexit and somehow reconciling his plans with the public finances. The Tories would be strong in Parliament, and would be able to harass and embarrass Labour on a regular basis.

    If we had 10 more seats, we'd have a majority, and the DUP would be enough for the difficult Brexit votes.

    Instead, the parliamentary arithmetic means we have no choice but to carry on in government, supported by a party who will tar us by association. We may not be able to get any Brexit settlement through Parliament thanks to our own rebels, which could lead to a chaotic exit or another election at which we would be utterly eviscerated.

    It's an utter, utter disaster. She is worse than Eden, Chamberlain and Major combined, and yet replacing her would be worse.

    Difficult to disagree with that.

    It's a Gramscian crisis - The old is dying but the new cannot be born.

    The losers are those with the most invested in May's pre-election status quo.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,128
    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Here's The Master Strategist gloating at the position of Theresa May and the Conservative Party;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xdxs-oH3cOE

    Hope Tory members keep this in their grudge bank and make sure this ghastly man can never make a comeback.

    I'd vote for Jezza every day of week and twice on Sundays over Osborne.

    "I feel well out of it"

    There you go, that's all you need to know about this ****. What Tory Remainers need to remember is that having cried wolf over Brexit, the voters are no longer scared by claims about what a nasty man Jeremy Corbyn is and how terrible things will be if he ever comes to power.

    May's dreadful, but Osborne's very much played his part in all of this.
    Yep. May is useless whereas Osborne is malignant.
    Osborne and Cameron won a majority in 2015.
    If EdM had offered to end student tuition fees then they wouldn't have.

    And in 2016 Osborne destroyed Project Fear - nobody believes scare stories from the government any more.

    There's more, much more, besides that.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,995
    isam said:

    GIN1138 said:

    isam said:
    Shame the Irish weren't invited to this debate...

    Maybe one thing to come out of any Con/DUP arrangement is that the Irish parties will get a taken serious by our arrogant broadcasters in the debates for the next election.
    I have never paid any attention to NI politics, so am surprised to hear how awful both Sinn Fein and the DUP are, according to the experts. I always thought NI people were ok, why do they vote for such horrors?
    To keep the other side out. It really is that simple.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Here's The Master Strategist gloating at the position of Theresa May and the Conservative Party;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xdxs-oH3cOE

    Hope Tory members keep this in their grudge bank and make sure this ghastly man can never make a comeback.

    I'd vote for Jezza every day of week and twice on Sundays over Osborne.

    "I feel well out of it"

    There you go, that's all you need to know about this ****. What Tory Remainers need to remember is that having cried wolf over Brexit, the voters are no longer scared by claims about what a nasty man Jeremy Corbyn is and how terrible things will be if he ever comes to power.

    May's dreadful, but Osborne's very much played his part in all of this.
    Yep. May is useless whereas Osborne is malignant.
    Osborne and Cameron won a majority in 2015.
    I wasn't talking about that. I wad talking about his character. Much of the cause for May' s current situation lies with the decisions he made. Gloating be sure he managed to pass on the parcel before it exploded shows just what a worm he is.
    No one asked her to make social care the centre of her manifesto. We literally needed one line on it "we will start a royal commission to investigate the best way in which to fully fund our social care system". That's it. Instead she made a huge attack on property and inheritance rights, overturning 40 years of party orthodoxy. It was a stupid, self inflicted wound that destroyed her and our party. As someone who isn't in the party and has been active in another, a period of silence about what is and isn't good for us would be appreciated.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,894
    edited June 2017
    calum said:

    He must be talking about another party !
    https://twitter.com/michaelgove/status/873860740213600256

    Is Gove on maneuvers? ;)
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about his character.

    Ha!

    May sacked him, unnecessarily, and needlessly viciously, before driving the party and country into the ground.

    He is entitled to feel aggrieved
  • Options
    perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    GIN1138 said:

    calum said:

    He must be talking about another party !
    https://twitter.com/michaelgove/status/873860740213600256

    Is Gove on maneuvers? ;)
    No. Gove telling the truth.

  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,894
    Scott_P said:

    I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about his character.

    Ha!

    May sacked him, unnecessarily, and needlessly viciously, before driving the party and country into the ground.

    He is entitled to feel aggrieved
    He sacked himself when he blew the referendum.
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    BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    RoyalBlue said:

    I think this election outcome is the worst of all possible worlds for the Tories.

    If we had 10 less seats, we'd be out of power. Corbyn would be PM, and would have to start delivering Brexit and somehow reconciling his plans with the public finances. The Tories would be strong in Parliament, and would be able to harass and embarrass Labour on a regular basis.

    If we had 10 more seats, we'd have a majority, and the DUP would be enough for the difficult Brexit votes.

    Instead, the parliamentary arithmetic means we have no choice but to carry on in government, supported by a party who will tar us by association. We may not be able to get any Brexit settlement through Parliament thanks to our own rebels, which could lead to a chaotic exit or another election at which we would be utterly eviscerated.

    It's an utter, utter disaster. She is worse than Eden, Chamberlain and Major combined, and yet replacing her would be worse.

    It's utterly utterly delicious.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,894
    edited June 2017
    perdix said:

    GIN1138 said:

    calum said:

    He must be talking about another party !
    https://twitter.com/michaelgove/status/873860740213600256

    Is Gove on maneuvers? ;)
    No. Gove telling the truth.

    After what he did to Boris it's always hard to know whether Gove is being loyal and game-playing...
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618
    Scott_P said:

    I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about his character.

    Ha!

    May sacked him, unnecessarily, and needlessly viciously, before driving the party and country into the ground.

    He is entitled to feel aggrieved
    Indeed, she told him to go out and learn what the party was about and just months later she made a huge attack on our base with horrible policies. She is completely useless and clearly doesn't understand anything about what our party stands for. It's not energy caps, it's not attacking property and inheritance rights, it's not favouring some pensioners over others. She clearly has no understanding of what the party stands for or what voters want.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,252
    edited June 2017
    calum said:
    If Tessy had been PM in 1939, she'd still be using 'peace for our time' while German bombs were falling on Warsaw.
This discussion has been closed.