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  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    Pakistan's Fakhar looking a useful prospect.
  • pbr2013pbr2013 Posts: 649
    pbr2013 said:

    Act of war then?
    I hope to fuck we have the sense to sit this one out. The Saudis are not our friends and absolutely nothing good will come of us supporting them.
    Have any British government officials sent condolences to the Iranians about these terrorist attacks?
    A quick look at the FCO website suggests not. Although I see that Boris did congratulate Rouhani on his "election" victory last month. Does kinda suggest a lack of focus.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/world/iran
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,141
    ICM 46/34.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,456
    edited June 2017
    I wouldn't be surprised if that is what Textor / Messina polling have looked like for weeks. If it is correct or not....squeaky bum time.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,664
    ICM is Con+1 from last poll.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,637
    Sean_F said:

    My estimate is:

    Con 345, Lab 225, SNP 45, Lib Dem 10, Others 25 or thereabouts.

    Really that is surprisingly low.

    Have you been canvassing this time Sean?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    kle4 said:

    Perfect time for a Lab in front poll.

    Yes, we must be owed at least on more SeanT meltdown before tomorrow night.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    MikeL said:

    ICM is Con+1 from last poll.

    Swingback!
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,507

    ok I have no form or reputation in this sort of thing but here is my (not proof-read) prediction:

    LD 10
    Gain 5: Edinburgh West, Dunbartonshire East, Twickenham, Kingston & Surbiton, Bath
    Lose 3: Carshalton and Wallington, Leeds NW, Southport

    SNP 47
    Lose 9: Edinburgh West, Dunbartonshire East, East Lothian, Paisley and Renfrewshire South, Aberdeenshire West and Kincardine, Clydesdale and Tweedsdale, Berwickshire R & S, Dumfries and Galloway, Moray

    Labour 199
    Gain 3: East Lothian, Paisley and Renfrewshire South, Leeds NW
    Lose 36: Barrow and Furness, Batley & Spen, Birmingham Edgbaston, Erdington and Northfield, Bishop Auckland, Blackpool South, Bolton NE, City of Chester, Chorley, Copeland, Coventry NW, Coventry South, Darlington, Derbyshire NE, Dewsbury, Dudley North, Gedling, Halifax, Hyndburn, Lancaster and Fleetwood, Mansfield, Middlesbrough South and Cleveland East, Newcastle-Under-Lyme, Scunthorpe, Stalybridge and Hyde, Stoke-on-Trent North, Stoke-on-Trent South, Wakefield, Walsall North, Wirral West, Wolverhampton SW Wolverhampton NE, Workington, Worsley and Eccles South, Wrexham

    NI (18), PC (3) and Green (1) = 22

    Leaves Conservative 371 (372 inc speaker)
    Gains and Losses should be all those not explicitly paired off above. Majority 94.

    Paisley and RS is 14/1 for SLAB.

    The end of Mhari Black in Parliament? I think may well be worth a modest punt.

    My forecast is similar, but not too far away.
    yes I've backed that. I fancy labour to get 3 in scotland and I plumped for that as the third one.

    Oh and thanks for the spreadsheet Andy
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    Sean_F said:

    ICM 46/34.

    On this lies their reputation as the gold standard.
  • JonCisBackJonCisBack Posts: 911

    The one I find most striking on the YouGov model is East Devon where the Independent, Claire Wright, is claimed to be in front, not just by a whisker but by a fair old margin.

    Now the likelihood is that it's an oddity of the model. Perhaps they find it easier to correct where parties stand across the country. Also, those engaged enough to be on YouGov's panel are more likely to be aware of Wright being a serious candidate than those who aren't and who will just vote for their usual party (i.e. Tory in East Devon by and large). I'd also note that the model is odd full stop - there are several places which just look wrong.

    But it's really striking. Wright is a formidable figure, while Hugo Swire has a classic, semi-detatched, safe seat mentality... he's no street fighter. I just wonder if there is something big enough going on under the national radar down on the Jurassic Coast that makes a small flutter at 5-1 worth a pop?

    She held her CC seat with 75% of the vote .
    Kind of independent we could do with here in East Herts, with all 53 Councillors being Tory. Not good surely

    I will be voting blue tomorrow though, no doubt whatsoever. I suspect a lot of her county council supporters will be doing the same (although obviously not all)
  • RobD said:

    The one I find most striking on the YouGov model is East Devon where the Independent, Claire Wright, is claimed to be in front, not just by a whisker but by a fair old margin.

    Now the likelihood is that it's an oddity of the model. Perhaps they find it easier to correct where parties stand across the country. Also, those engaged enough to be on YouGov's panel are more likely to be aware of Wright being a serious candidate than those who aren't and who will just vote for their usual party (i.e. Tory in East Devon by and large). I'd also note that the model is odd full stop - there are several places which just look wrong.

    But it's really striking. Wright is a formidable figure, while Hugo Swire has a classic, semi-detatched, safe seat mentality... he's no street fighter. I just wonder if there is something big enough going on under the national radar down on the Jurassic Coast that makes a small flutter at 5-1 worth a pop?

    She held her CC seat with 75% of the vote .
    How much did she hold it by in the previous election?
    74%!

    I'd not read too much into a councillor who's popular in her ward. That says "strong candidate" but doesn't imply replication across the constituency for a national election.

    As a side note, the same constituency had a Monster Raving Loony councillor at one time (he later defected to the Tories - true story!)

    The point is just that she proved she was serious coming a good second in 2015, and has two more years to build against a Tory MP who has a classic safe seat mentality.

    In better days for the Lib Dems, it was the sort of seat where it would be an energetic Lib Dem surging past a non-battle-hardened Tory stalwart in an otherwise unpromising election (Solihull, Westmoreland, North Norfolk etc). That's why I get the feeling in my waters on East Devon.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    pbr2013 said:

    pbr2013 said:

    Act of war then?
    I hope to fuck we have the sense to sit this one out. The Saudis are not our friends and absolutely nothing good will come of us supporting them.
    Have any British government officials sent condolences to the Iranians about these terrorist attacks?
    A quick look at the FCO website suggests not. Although I see that Boris did congratulate Rouhani on his "election" victory last month. Does kinda suggest a lack of focus.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/world/iran
    Pretty bad form that we haven't.

    Are we so much in thrall to the Saudi arms billions ?
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,490
    Sean_F said:

    ICM 46/34.

    That strikes me as good for both sides if it was the result. especially as Corbyn can say 'I got more votes' The fact that most of them are likely to be in very safe seats
  • Another of Sporting's "Election Specials" is their so-called "First Past The Post" market in which one is betting on the number of minutes after 10.00pm tomorrow evening before the first declaration is made. The current spread is 49 - 51 minutes. I was quite tempted to BUY this bet at 51 minutes until I checked back on the 2015 GE when Houghton & Sunderland South took the honour declaring at 10:48 p.m. which is quite remarkable. I can only assume that they commence counting the votes before the ballot boxes have actually closed at 10:00p.m.
    Judging by the spread, Sporting clearly believe that an even faster time is at least possible on this occasion. Turnout will clearly have a bearing.
  • JonCisBackJonCisBack Posts: 911

    ICM happy to release post Jack W's encouraging report

    https://twitter.com/JGForsyth/status/872497548942073856

    Kudos to them for not herding anyway!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,872
    edited June 2017

    ok I have no form or reputation in this sort of thing but here is my (not proof-read) prediction:

    LD 10
    Gain 5: Edinburgh West, Dunbartonshire East, Twickenham, Kingston & Surbiton, Bath
    Lose 3: Carshalton and Wallington, Leeds NW, Southport

    LDs gain more in England than in Scotland? I struggle with that, but you may well acquire a reputation from this.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Could this be the defining moment ICM lose their gold standard rating to Survation?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    Sean_F said:

    ICM 46/34.

    Boom.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,275
    I think that ICM poll will be almost bang on, Labour gets its biggest voteshare since 2005 and matches Kinnock 1992 but the Tories get their biggest voteshare since Heath 1970 and probably their biggest majority since Thatcher 1987
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Labour's electoral nightmare. Consider the following scenario:

    Con 40, Lab 40, LD 8, UKIP 3, GRN 1. [ without ticking the Scottish box ]

    Con 322
    Lab 250
    LD 4
    UKIP 0
    GRN 0
    SNP 55
    PC 1
    NI 18

    Con short of majority by 4. Of course, Scotland will probably give more than 2 gains.

    So even with 40:40 split, Con gets overall majority with UNS.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,490

    Another of Sporting's "Election Specials" is their so-called "First Past The Post" market in which one is betting on the number of minutes after 10.00pm tomorrow evening before the first declaration is made. The current spread is 49 - 51 minutes. I was quite tempted to BUY this bet at 51 minutes until I checked back on the 2015 GE when Houghton & Sunderland South took the honour declaring at 10:48 p.m. which is quite remarkable. I can only assume that they commence counting the votes before the ballot boxes have actually closed at 10:00p.m.
    Judging by the spread, Sporting clearly believe that an even faster time is at least possible on this occasion. Turnout will clearly have a bearing.

    it should be quicker this time as there are no locals
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,141
    If (as I believe) the Conservatives' lead will be about 8%, that will be three elections in a row in which the margin between Con and Lab has been very similar.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Mr. Tyndall, whether we sit it out (Syria), take part without committing ground forces (Libya), or have a full-blown role (Iraq/Afghanistan) it'll be criticised.

    Anyway, we'll have to wait and see what Iran actually does.

    As I recall, the Eastern Province of KSA is where the oil is, and has a substantial (and oppressed) Shia population.

  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,270
    So ICM sticking with pretty much what they have found for some time. YouGov later? I'm guessing will be the same, not much change. Going to be fascinating to see who is accurate or closest to being accurate.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    I don't really see 46% but say 42/34 and that'll do fine.
  • PaulM said:

    Pong said:

    https://twitter.com/LadPolitics/with_replies?lang=en

    Ladbrokes Politics‏Verified account @LadPolitics 6h6 hours ago
    A Ladbrokes customer in London has had £1,000 on the Greens to win most seats at 1000/1. Will win £1m in the unlikely event they are right.

    Warren‏ @fatwaz 4h4 hours ago
    But their Max payout on politics is 250k

    Ladbrokes Politics‏Verified account @LadPolitics 4h4 hours ago
    Replying to @fatwaz @WeLoveBettingUK
    This is a fair point, the max payouts on display are often lower than we would actually pay out, as in this case.

    That's basically fraud on the part of the bookmakers.

    If that comes off I think Shadsy will be good for the milllion. Not least because pretty much every other bet will have gone down
    What was the old Family Fortunes catchphrase, "If it's up there, I'll give you the money myself".
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Sean_F said:

    My estimate is:

    Con 345, Lab 225, SNP 45, Lib Dem 10, Others 25 or thereabouts.

    Very cautious Sean. Only a 40 Con maj ?!?
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,664
    BBC1 6pm includes UKIP in its opening headlines sequence - going with 5 parties.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    MikeL said:

    Iain Watson (BBC):

    Labour strategists - off the record - expecting net losses.

    Most effort going into defences.

    But do expect some gains.

    Even more convinced after reading Stephen Bush's latest blog post for the New Statesman this evening that I'm right about the potential for large differences in swing between seats at this election. Based on what he's heard, he reckons that the trend of 2015 will continue - i.e. Labour will increase its vote share but lose more seats, because its vote is getting more and more inefficiently distributed; this chimes both with my own thinking and with other reports of canvass and focus group returns that I have read during the campaign.

    In short, Labour is stacking up more extra voters in urban areas and university towns, whilst going steadily backwards in the rest of the country - the one caveat to this being that I expect Labour to consolidate many improved, yet (under FPTP) totally useless, second place performances in safe Tory seats all over rural England. This might help in a small handful of targets - Bush mentions Battersea, and I reckon Brighton Kemptown looks rather vulnerable - but, for the most part, Labour's additional votes are likely to materialise disproportionately in seats where it is already extremely safe, or where it has zero chance of winning.

    On the other hand, I still see no particular reason why the Tories can't roll over dozens of traditional Labour seats in the Midlands and North, through a combination of hoovering up half or more of the Ukip vote, and a significant number of direct Lab to Con defections (caused by much of the old Labour core support's ongoing distaste for Jeremy Corbyn.)

    I stand to be proven spectacularly wrong in just over 24 hours' time, but right now I think that the Conservative landslide is achievable.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,892
    Pray to God, Jehovah, Allah and Zeus the Tories win. And may Huppert win in Cambridge too
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,892
    Tories out chants on the radio at start of Jezza vox pops
  • jonny83 said:

    So ICM sticking with pretty much what they have found for some time. YouGov later? I'm guessing will be the same, not much change. Going to be fascinating to see who is accurate or closest to being accurate.

    Fascinating yes, but also potentially hugely embarrassing for the loser, unless the actual result is somewhere around the mid-point of their respective forecasts.
  • pbr2013pbr2013 Posts: 649
    Pulpstar said:

    Act of war then?
    I hope to fuck we have the sense to sit this one out. The Saudis are not our friends and absolutely nothing good will come of us supporting them.
    Yes we need to keep out. May must know shed be crucified in 2022 if we got involved in that
    Mmm. If it blows up properly it might be quite hard to keep out. Surely too many Western assets in the Gulf for the Ayatollahs to really have a go?

    I see that the QE puts out for sea trials this month.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,301
    Pulpstar said:

    Pray to God, Jehovah, Allah and Zeus the Tories win. And may Huppert win in Cambridge too

    I'm going to the poor house if the Tories aren't the largest party and if the Lib Dems get more than 24ish seats.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329
    Prediction - ahead of final polls - Con 356, Lab 220, SNP 45, Lib Dem 7, PC 2, Green 1, Speaker 1 NI 18

    I think 62 majority. I think it could be well above this if the Tories could have broken through the reluctance across the north to vote Tory - Thatchers legacy.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,141

    Sean_F said:

    My estimate is:

    Con 345, Lab 225, SNP 45, Lib Dem 10, Others 25 or thereabouts.

    Really that is surprisingly low.

    Have you been canvassing this time Sean?
    Yes, I've canvassed six times in Luton North.

    Cons will poll well, but Kelvin Hopkins is popular locally, has impeccable eurosceptic credentials and will hold comfortably.

  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    RobD said:

    JackW said:

    RobD said:

    ARSE majority anywhere between 10-130. Nice :p

    Naughty .... :smile:
    I was going to ask to take a look at the shape of your posterior.. but maybe that's a bit too cheeky.... :smiley:
    That's a colossal ask!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    surbiton said:

    Labour's electoral nightmare. Consider the following scenario:

    Con 40, Lab 40, LD 8, UKIP 3, GRN 1. [ without ticking the Scottish box ]

    Con 322
    Lab 250
    LD 4
    UKIP 0
    GRN 0
    SNP 55
    PC 1
    NI 18

    Con short of majority by 4. Of course, Scotland will probably give more than 2 gains.

    So even with 40:40 split, Con gets overall majority with UNS.

    I played with the numbers to see if I could get a Lab majority, but nothing plausible would do it.

    A high young (<40) turnout, and kippers breaking less decisively to Con in the Midlands and North, while a little tactical voting goes on does make a well hung parliament possible.

    Not entirely implausible.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,593
    IanB2 said:

    kle4 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    JackW said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Thanks Mr Jack!

    Jezza "wins" the campaign... Tezza gets a landslide :smile:

    Precisely.

    And the point of the past six weeks was... ? ;)
    To ensure another 5 years of Corbyn leadership in the Labour party and their consequent defeat in 2022.
    Even thougyh he's deemed to have "won" the campaign Jezza can't survive a "landslide" result though can he?
    I do not believe so. It would demonstrate that his apparent success in the campaign was all froth and nonsense, not the positive it appears to be at present. A landslide leads to him going, anything else means he can hold on to be dead safe, from worst to best.
    To be fair, he has demonstrated that, since the Tory tabloids can be trusted to attack you brutally whatever you have to say, you are actually no worse off advocating a genuinely socialist agenda. To his followers within the party, that will be the point proved from this campaign, whether our SO likes it or not.

    As I posted earlier today, Corbyn has taught moderates some very valuable lessons about pitching a positive message and not living in fear of the Tory tabloids - they are going to get you whatever. On the other hand, I hope at least some of those on the left can recognise that the identity of the preacher is often as - or even more - important than the message itself. If you have the baggage that people like Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott have accumulated over the years, you are going to put off more voters than you attract. I'd say that Labour owes Corbyn a big thank-you for helping the parry to find its mojo once more, but I'd also say that if the Labour left actually wants to win power it needs to accept there needs to be compromise on who is in charge: combine Dan Jarvis on security with Jeremy Corbyn on economics and you probably have a genuine winner on your hands!! On that basis, I'd saythat if everyone is reasonable (a big if, of course) there is a way forward for Labour that did not seem to the there six weeks ago. I see absolutely no need for Corbyn to go now, if he genuinely embraces all parts of the party. It could even be that he has learned something similar on his travels around the country!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774

    MikeL said:

    Iain Watson (BBC):

    Labour strategists - off the record - expecting net losses.

    Most effort going into defences.

    But do expect some gains.

    Even more convinced after reading Stephen Bush's latest blog post for the New Statesman this evening that I'm right about the potential for large differences in swing between seats at this election. Based on what he's heard, he reckons that the trend of 2015 will continue - i.e. Labour will increase its vote share but lose more seats, because its vote is getting more and more inefficiently distributed; this chimes both with my own thinking and with other reports of canvass and focus group returns that I have read during the campaign.

    In short, Labour is stacking up more extra voters in urban areas and university towns, whilst going steadily backwards in the rest of the country - the one caveat to this being that I expect Labour to consolidate many improved, yet (under FPTP) totally useless, second place performances in safe Tory seats all over rural England. This might help in a small handful of targets - Bush mentions Battersea, and I reckon Brighton Kemptown looks rather vulnerable - but, for the most part, Labour's additional votes are likely to materialise disproportionately in seats where it is already extremely safe, or where it has zero chance of winning.

    On the other hand, I still see no particular reason why the Tories can't roll over dozens of traditional Labour seats in the Midlands and North, through a combination of hoovering up half or more of the Ukip vote, and a significant number of direct Lab to Con defections (caused by much of the old Labour core support's ongoing distaste for Jeremy Corbyn.)

    I stand to be proven spectacularly wrong in just over 24 hours' time, but right now I think that the Conservative landslide is achievable.
    Labour's Idiocy:

    1. Not keeping its promise to change the voting system, when it had the chance.
    2. Not coming out in support of a fairer system, even now.
  • NickCatNickCat Posts: 4

    HYUFD said:

    wills66 said:

    Anecdote alert: listening on the train to a lady telling her friend that her son is coming home from holiday today "because he wants to vote". I think youth turnout is going to be much higher than history might suggest.

    Majority < 50 or NOC.

    WillS

    A poll in the Metro this morning said youth turnout will be up to 54% but over 65 turnout up to 79% tomorrow
    Anecdote alert:

    On train to (marginal) Hampstead, three educated but none too bright young men were sitting opposite, discussing the election. All three were strongly supporting Corbyn, but one had been unable to register because they asked for his NI number and he 'didn't have it'.

    Labour were canvassing at Hampstead Heath Station but when I spoke to them about their prospects in the constituency they would only say 'it's tight', which is hardly news. They didn't sound very confident. Strangely, I have seen no evidence of the Conservatives in the area at all. The Station is in South End Green, which ought to be reasonably good territory for them but not so much as a sticker in sight. Not many Labour ones either, to be fair, but a few. I told the canvasser Tulip was 1/2 to hold the seat. This seemed to cheer them up.

    Back in Wanstead, Labour had their well-manned stall in the High Street. What are they doing there? John Cryer is massive odds on to hold. Surely they should be in marginal Ilford?

    Interesting - South End Green is very like a lot of other parts of North London in that what you see immediately are the big houses on the streets close to the station and the shops. But behind the old bus terminus just down the way there's a lot of housing association and council flats, while there's a council estate just a few minutes further on off Fleet Road. This is what makes places like Hampstead competitive for labour and places like Saint Pancras North and the Islington constituencies so safe.
    That's perfectly correct, Southam, but don't forget the constituency is Hampstead and Kilburn. I should think Kilburn is the Labour end.
    Kilburn is very much the 'Labour end'. Confusingly, there are 2 wards in the constituency called Kilburn, one on the Brent side of Kilburn High Street and one on the Camden side. Both deliver huge Labour majorities in what otherwise is a well-balanced constituency. The three wards to the East of the Finchley Road are strongly Tory, the rest are evens. Constituency was 72% remain.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    surbiton said:

    Labour's electoral nightmare. Consider the following scenario:

    Con 40, Lab 40, LD 8, UKIP 3, GRN 1. [ without ticking the Scottish box ]

    Con 322
    Lab 250
    LD 4
    UKIP 0
    GRN 0
    SNP 55
    PC 1
    NI 18

    Con short of majority by 4. Of course, Scotland will probably give more than 2 gains.

    So even with 40:40 split, Con gets overall majority with UNS.

    Hmmm. It's almost like Labour need someone who can appeal to moderate Conservatives rather than using a core vote/energise the base/far left strategy. If only this had been foreseen.
  • TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,683
    spudgfsh said:

    Another of Sporting's "Election Specials" is their so-called "First Past The Post" market in which one is betting on the number of minutes after 10.00pm tomorrow evening before the first declaration is made. The current spread is 49 - 51 minutes. I was quite tempted to BUY this bet at 51 minutes until I checked back on the 2015 GE when Houghton & Sunderland South took the honour declaring at 10:48 p.m. which is quite remarkable. I can only assume that they commence counting the votes before the ballot boxes have actually closed at 10:00p.m.
    Judging by the spread, Sporting clearly believe that an even faster time is at least possible on this occasion. Turnout will clearly have a bearing.

    it should be quicker this time as there are no locals
    The BBC usually shows them in a chaingang throwing the ballot boxes into the counting area through a back door. They certainly won't start counting anything before 10pm. I miss the race there used to be with Torbay.....
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,539
    For a website with useful political boundaries try:

    https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/election-maps/gb/
  • Pulpstar said:

    Pray to God, Jehovah, Allah and Zeus the Tories win. And may Huppert win in Cambridge too

    I'm going to the poor house if the Tories aren't the largest party and if the Lib Dems get more than 24ish seats.
    To be honest, I wouldn't bother packing a suitcase for either eventuality.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,141
    JackW said:

    Sean_F said:

    My estimate is:

    Con 345, Lab 225, SNP 45, Lib Dem 10, Others 25 or thereabouts.

    Very cautious Sean. Only a 40 Con maj ?!?
    I expect a similar lead to 1979.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774

    IanB2 said:

    kle4 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    JackW said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Thanks Mr Jack!

    Jezza "wins" the campaign... Tezza gets a landslide :smile:

    Precisely.

    And the point of the past six weeks was... ? ;)
    To ensure another 5 years of Corbyn leadership in the Labour party and their consequent defeat in 2022.
    Even thougyh he's deemed to have "won" the campaign Jezza can't survive a "landslide" result though can he?
    I do not believe so. It would demonstrate that his apparent success in the campaign was all froth and nonsense, not the positive it appears to be at present. A landslide leads to him going, anything else means he can hold on to be dead safe, from worst to best.
    To be fair, he has demonstrated that, since the Tory tabloids can be trusted to attack you brutally whatever you have to say, you are actually no worse off advocating a genuinely socialist agenda. To his followers within the party, that will be the point proved from this campaign, whether our SO likes it or not.

    As I posted earlier today, Corbyn has taught moderates some very valuable lessons about pitching a positive message and not living in fear of the Tory tabloids - they are going to get you whatever. On the other hand, I hope at least some of those on the left can recognise that the identity of the preacher is often as - or even more - important than the message itself. If you have the baggage that people like Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott have accumulated over the years, you are going to put off more voters than you attract. I'd say that Labour owes Corbyn a big thank-you for helping the parry to find its mojo once more, but I'd also say that if the Labour left actually wants to win power it needs to accept there needs to be compromise on who is in charge: combine Dan Jarvis on security with Jeremy Corbyn on economics and you probably have a genuine winner on your hands!! On that basis, I'd saythat if everyone is reasonable (a big if, of course) there is a way forward for Labour that did not seem to the there six weeks ago. I see absolutely no need for Corbyn to go now, if he genuinely embraces all parts of the party. It could even be that he has learned something similar on his travels around the country!
    Paraphrasing, the mojo for Labour used to be that a leader with left-wing views had to pretend to be more moderate. But the new mojo is for a moderate leader to pretend to be more left-wing?
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,490

    surbiton said:

    Labour's electoral nightmare. Consider the following scenario:

    Con 40, Lab 40, LD 8, UKIP 3, GRN 1. [ without ticking the Scottish box ]

    Con 322
    Lab 250
    LD 4
    UKIP 0
    GRN 0
    SNP 55
    PC 1
    NI 18

    Con short of majority by 4. Of course, Scotland will probably give more than 2 gains.

    So even with 40:40 split, Con gets overall majority with UNS.

    I played with the numbers to see if I could get a Lab majority, but nothing plausible would do it.

    A high young (<40) turnout, and kippers breaking less decisively to Con in the Midlands and North, while a little tactical voting goes on does make a well hung parliament possible.

    Not entirely implausible. </p>
    As OGH said in posts prior to 2010 there has been very few elections where power has transitioned between parties when both before and after the election there were proper majorities. not likely to happen this time either no matter how bad it gets for the tories
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Mr. Pulpstar, no love for the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

    Regardless, may you be touched by His Noodley Appendage.

    On arms deals - Crete once got in trouble with Rome, because they'd been hiring out mercenary archers to Rome, and Rome's enemy, in the same war.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    HYUFD said:

    I think that ICM poll will be almost bang on, Labour gets its biggest voteshare since 2005 and matches Kinnock 1992 but the Tories get their biggest voteshare since Heath 1970 and probably their biggest majority since Thatcher 1987
    Should the Tories actually finish as much as 12% ahead then it'll be a very bad night for Labour. There's no way that doesn't result in a landslide; even if you plug those numbers into Electoral Calculus and don't bother to correct for Scotland you still get a Con maj of 96, and (for reasons I just posted) I'm convinced that UNS will be a very poor guide to this election. Labour could do very well in some concentrated geographical areas - mainly the major cities - whilst suffering serious reverses in most of the key marginals.
  • LadyBucketLadyBucket Posts: 590
    SKY covering Theresa May's final speech - BBC are not!
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,490
    TudorRose said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Another of Sporting's "Election Specials" is their so-called "First Past The Post" market in which one is betting on the number of minutes after 10.00pm tomorrow evening before the first declaration is made. The current spread is 49 - 51 minutes. I was quite tempted to BUY this bet at 51 minutes until I checked back on the 2015 GE when Houghton & Sunderland South took the honour declaring at 10:48 p.m. which is quite remarkable. I can only assume that they commence counting the votes before the ballot boxes have actually closed at 10:00p.m.
    Judging by the spread, Sporting clearly believe that an even faster time is at least possible on this occasion. Turnout will clearly have a bearing.

    it should be quicker this time as there are no locals
    The BBC usually shows them in a chaingang throwing the ballot boxes into the counting area through a back door. They certainly won't start counting anything before 10pm. I miss the race there used to be with Torbay.....
    but without the locals they won't have to sort out the different ballot papers prior to sorting by candidate and counting.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,141

    IanB2 said:

    kle4 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    JackW said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Thanks Mr Jack!

    Jezza "wins" the campaign... Tezza gets a landslide :smile:

    Precisely.

    And the point of the past six weeks was... ? ;)
    To ensure another 5 years of Corbyn leadership in the Labour party and their consequent defeat in 2022.
    Even thougyh he's deemed to have "won" the campaign Jezza can't survive a "landslide" result though can he?
    I do not believe so. It would demonstrate that his apparent success in the campaign was all froth and nonsense, not the positive it appears to be at present. A landslide leads to him going, anything else means he can hold on to be dead safe, from worst to best.
    To be fair, he has demonstrated that, since the Tory tabloids can be trusted to attack you brutally whatever you have to say, you are actually no worse off advocating a genuinely socialist agenda. To his followers within the party, that will be the point proved from this campaign, whether our SO likes it or not.

    As I posted earlier today, Corbyn has taught moderates some very valuable lessons about pitching a positive message and not living in fear of the Tory tabloids - they are going to get you whatever. On the other hand, I hope at least some of those on the left can recognise that the identity of the preacher is often as - or even more - important than the message itself. If you have the baggage that people like Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott have accumulated over the years, you are going to put off more voters than you attract. I'd say that Labour owes Corbyn a big thank-you for helping the parry to find its mojo once more, but I'd also say that if the Labour left actually wants to win power it needs to accept there needs to be compromise on who is in charge: combine Dan Jarvis on security with Jeremy Corbyn on economics and you probably have a genuine winner on your hands!! On that basis, I'd saythat if everyone is reasonable (a big if, of course) there is a way forward for Labour that did not seem to the there six weeks ago. I see absolutely no need for Corbyn to go now, if he genuinely embraces all parts of the party. It could even be that he has learned something similar on his travels around the country!
    I think that a centre left party whose patriotism is not in doubt would start favorite for 2022.
  • JonWCJonWC Posts: 287

    RobD said:

    The one I find most striking on the YouGov model is East Devon where the Independent, Claire Wright, is claimed to be in front, not just by a whisker but by a fair old margin.

    Now the likelihood is that it's an oddity of the model. Perhaps they find it easier to correct where parties stand across the country. Also, those engaged enough to be on YouGov's panel are more likely to be aware of Wright being a serious candidate than those who aren't and who will just vote for their usual party (i.e. Tory in East Devon by and large). I'd also note that the model is odd full stop - there are several places which just look wrong.

    But it's really striking. Wright is a formidable figure, while Hugo Swire has a classic, semi-detatched, safe seat mentality... he's no street fighter. I just wonder if there is something big enough going on under the national radar down on the Jurassic Coast that makes a small flutter at 5-1 worth a pop?

    She held her CC seat with 75% of the vote .
    How much did she hold it by in the previous election?
    74%!

    I'd not read too much into a councillor who's popular in her ward. That says "strong candidate" but doesn't imply replication across the constituency for a national election.

    As a side note, the same constituency had a Monster Raving Loony councillor at one time (he later defected to the Tories - true story!)

    The point is just that she proved she was serious coming a good second in 2015, and has two more years to build against a Tory MP who has a classic safe seat mentality.

    In better days for the Lib Dems, it was the sort of seat where it would be an energetic Lib Dem surging past a non-battle-hardened Tory stalwart in an otherwise unpromising election (Solihull, Westmoreland, North Norfolk etc). That's why I get the feeling in my waters on East Devon.
    The MRLP candidate is still the Conservative county councilor for Sidmouth. He reminds me rather of the man from Del Monte for those of a certain vintage.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    I am sticking with my forecast of Con seats 355, maj 60. With full confidence in all the analysis and PB consensus, just as I had for Remain and for Mrs Clinton. This must truly be third time lucky.... (or unlucky, as far as our country is concerned).
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,637
    I think Turnout in the 18-24 age group is going to be significantly higher than in 2015.

    Does ICM take any account of this at all or assume 2015 levels?
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Ok time for my forecast , surprisingly to me it is the same ballpark as Sean_F

    Con 340
    Lab 230
    SNP 45
    LD 12
    Plaid 3
    Green 1
    Speaker 1
    NI 18
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Pakistan are making hard work of this :disappointed:
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,456
    edited June 2017
    All political parties would be wise to do some serious thinking about new policies for the modern world, especially a post brexit one.

    How to.deal with rise of machine learning, an aging population etc etc etc
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    So with no gold standard (other than Jack W's WINDY ARSE) who do we bank on?

    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/872500552042721281
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Mr. F, agree on that centre-left party idea.

    Mr. B2, PR is the work of Satan.

    Welcome to the site, Mr. Cat.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,637

    SKY covering Theresa May's final speech - BBC are not!

    Only 2 allowed in the shed at a time??
  • pbr2013pbr2013 Posts: 649

    I think Turnout in the 18-24 age group is going to be significantly higher than in 2015.

    Does ICM take any account of this at all or assume 2015 levels?

    Brilliant question which has never been addressed on this website before.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,153
    edited June 2017
    ICM stick to their guns... ComRes and YouGov to come...
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    IanB2 said:

    I am sticking with my forecast of Con seats 355, maj 60. With full confidence in all the analysis and PB consensus, just as I had for Remain and for Mrs Clinton. This must truly be third time lucky.... (or unlucky, as far as our country is concerned).

    The PB consensus in 2015 was for a hung parliament. We are not the sages that some pretend. We are gamblers, and often ones with party blinkers on.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    Perfect time for a Lab in front poll.

    Yes, we must be owed at least on more SeanT meltdown before tomorrow night.
    He's been down the town hall twice already claiming his postal vote never arrived, trying to get another one....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,456
    GIN1138 said:

    ICM stick to their guns... ComRes and YouGov to come...
    Survation as well?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    My guess.
    Tories over 400
    Labour under 160
    Lib Dems under 6
    SNP under 45
    Plaid and Greens 2 apiece.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,301
    GIN1138 said:

    ICM stick to their guns... ComRes and YouGov to come...
    Survation too
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774

    GIN1138 said:

    ICM stick to their guns... ComRes and YouGov to come...
    Survation as well?
    Promised 11pm
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,153
    edited June 2017
    CORRECTED!!!!!!

    #SurvationNationBaby!!!!!!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,892
    isam said:

    Pakistan are making hard work of this :disappointed:

    Lol
  • TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,683
    spudgfsh said:

    TudorRose said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Another of Sporting's "Election Specials" is their so-called "First Past The Post" market in which one is betting on the number of minutes after 10.00pm tomorrow evening before the first declaration is made. The current spread is 49 - 51 minutes. I was quite tempted to BUY this bet at 51 minutes until I checked back on the 2015 GE when Houghton & Sunderland South took the honour declaring at 10:48 p.m. which is quite remarkable. I can only assume that they commence counting the votes before the ballot boxes have actually closed at 10:00p.m.
    Judging by the spread, Sporting clearly believe that an even faster time is at least possible on this occasion. Turnout will clearly have a bearing.

    it should be quicker this time as there are no locals
    The BBC usually shows them in a chaingang throwing the ballot boxes into the counting area through a back door. They certainly won't start counting anything before 10pm. I miss the race there used to be with Torbay.....
    but without the locals they won't have to sort out the different ballot papers prior to sorting by candidate and counting.
    Yes, I think a lot of the results will come earlier than predicted for that very reason. Except the recounts of course.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,456
    I wonder what the currant bun will have for their readers on tomorrows front page?
  • Tories to win more votes than Labour at 1/8. Compared to 1/14 in most seats market. Do we like this?
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,507
    kle4 said:

    ok I have no form or reputation in this sort of thing but here is my (not proof-read) prediction:

    LD 10
    Gain 5: Edinburgh West, Dunbartonshire East, Twickenham, Kingston & Surbiton, Bath
    Lose 3: Carshalton and Wallington, Leeds NW, Southport

    LDs gain more in England than in Scotland? I struggle with that, but you may well acquire a reputation from this.
    yeah I think maybe I went a bit arse about face trying to get to the 10 seats I reckon they'll get. swapping Bath for a tartan one would probably make more sense.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    surbiton said:

    Labour's electoral nightmare. Consider the following scenario:

    Con 40, Lab 40, LD 8, UKIP 3, GRN 1. [ without ticking the Scottish box ]

    Con 322
    Lab 250
    LD 4
    UKIP 0
    GRN 0
    SNP 55
    PC 1
    NI 18

    Con short of majority by 4. Of course, Scotland will probably give more than 2 gains.

    So even with 40:40 split, Con gets overall majority with UNS.

    I played with the numbers to see if I could get a Lab majority, but nothing plausible would do it.

    A high young (<40) turnout, and kippers breaking less decisively to Con in the Midlands and North, while a little tactical voting goes on does make a well hung parliament possible.

    Not entirely implausible. </p>
    That's why I have an insurance bet on a Labour minority government.
    While a Conservative win looks overwhelmingly likely, there remains a small voice in my head saying 'yes, but...'.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    SKY covering Theresa May's final speech - BBC are not!

    Clearly Sky news are out for the PM. Thank god the BBC have shown mercy .... :smiley:
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,153

    My guess.
    Tories over 400
    Labour under 160
    Lib Dems under 6
    SNP under 45
    Plaid and Greens 2 apiece.

    That works out as a Con majority of around 150 right?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    I think Turnout in the 18-24 age group is going to be significantly higher than in 2015.

    Does ICM take any account of this at all or assume 2015 levels?

    I think Labour also needs the 25-34 band, who are rarely discussed here, but my anecdata seem quite fired up for change, and who can blame them?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    pbr2013 said:

    I think Turnout in the 18-24 age group is going to be significantly higher than in 2015.

    Does ICM take any account of this at all or assume 2015 levels?

    Brilliant question which has never been addressed on this website before.
    It's actually been debated at length. The reason why many PB'ers are charting a middle path between ICM/Comres and YouGov/Survation.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    I wonder what the currant bun will have for their readers on tomorrows front page?

    At a guess, I don't think they'll be urging them to vote Corbyn!
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,664
    edited June 2017
    Look at the share, not the lead - Con share in final polls so far:

    ICM +1
    Opinium 0
    Survey Monkey -2
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,503

    I wouldn't be surprised if that is what Textor / Messina polling have looked like for weeks. If it is correct or not....squeaky bum time.
    What's a preliiminary final poll, when it's at home?
  • NickCatNickCat Posts: 4



    Welcome to the site, Mr. Cat.

    thank you :) Been reading the site for many years, always informative.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    Doesn't this symbolise where Labour might be - Owen Jones helping defend Labour seats in London on election day?

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/872501916017754117

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/872489590778732545
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774

    kle4 said:

    ok I have no form or reputation in this sort of thing but here is my (not proof-read) prediction:

    LD 10
    Gain 5: Edinburgh West, Dunbartonshire East, Twickenham, Kingston & Surbiton, Bath
    Lose 3: Carshalton and Wallington, Leeds NW, Southport

    LDs gain more in England than in Scotland? I struggle with that, but you may well acquire a reputation from this.
    yeah I think maybe I went a bit arse about face trying to get to the 10 seats I reckon they'll get. swapping Bath for a tartan one would probably make more sense.
    Anecdotal reports from SW London for the LibDems are quite positive.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Mr. 0999, I'd prefer the most votes bet, personally, although the blue vote is apparently more efficient nowadays (certainly wasn't in 2005 and earlier).
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,153

    I wouldn't be surprised if that is what Textor / Messina polling have looked like for weeks. If it is correct or not....squeaky bum time.
    What's a preliiminary final poll, when it's at home?
    They are polling into the evening so may update later or tomorrow morning - They did this in 2015 and changes were very small.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,456

    I wouldn't be surprised if that is what Textor / Messina polling have looked like for weeks. If it is correct or not....squeaky bum time.
    What's a preliiminary final poll, when it's at home?
    I believe it mans they are still continue to poll .
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,270
    JackW said:

    SKY covering Theresa May's final speech - BBC are not!

    Clearly Sky news are out for the PM. Thank god the BBC have shown mercy .... :smiley:
    Looks like Boris was bashing the bbc before May came out lol. Well social media saying he was.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,585
    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    kle4 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    JackW said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Thanks Mr Jack!

    Jezza "wins" the campaign... Tezza gets a landslide :smile:

    Precisely.

    And the point of the past six weeks was... ? ;)
    To ensure another 5 years of Corbyn leadership in the Labour party and their consequent defeat in 2022.
    Even thougyh he's deemed to have "won" the campaign Jezza can't survive a "landslide" result though can he?
    I do not believe so. It would demonstrate that his apparent success in the campaign was all froth and nonsense, not the positive it appears to be at present. A landslide leads to him going, anything else means he can hold on to be dead safe, from worst to best.
    To be fair, he has demonstrated that, since the Tory tabloids can be trusted to attack you brutally whatever you have to say, you are actually no worse off advocating a genuinely socialist agenda. To his followers within the party, that will be the point proved from this campaign, whether our SO likes it or not.

    As I posted earlier today, Corbyn has taught moderates some very valuable lessons about pitching a positive message and not living in fear of the Tory tabloids - they are going to get you whatever. On the other hand, I hope at least some of those on the left can recognise that the identity of the preacher is often as - or even more - important than the message itself. If you have the baggage that people like Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott have accumulated over the years, you are going to put off more voters than you attract. I'd say that Labour owes Corbyn a big thank-you for helping the parry to find its mojo once more, but I'd also say that if the Labour left actually wants to win power it needs to accept there needs to be compromise on who is in charge: combine Dan Jarvis on security with Jeremy Corbyn on economics and you probably have a genuine winner on your hands!! On that basis, I'd saythat if everyone is reasonable (a big if, of course) there is a way forward for Labour that did not seem to the there six weeks ago. I see absolutely no need for Corbyn to go now, if he genuinely embraces all parts of the party. It could even be that he has learned something similar on his travels around the country!
    I think that a centre left party whose patriotism is not in doubt would start favorite for 2022.
    Indeed. Feels a while since we had one of those.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    I wonder what the currant bun will have for their readers on tomorrows front page?

    Pages 2 and 3 today were all about how our security services failed to act on the Italian tip off.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    IanB2 said:

    Labour's Idiocy:

    1. Not keeping its promise to change the voting system, when it had the chance.
    2. Not coming out in support of a fairer system, even now.

    Labour won't back PR because, providing that the party doesn't definitively rupture through an outbreak of civil war after a Tory landslide, it knows that it will endure as the principal Opposition, and therefore it is also confident that it will eventually wield power again on its own. The worst that it might have to do is rely on the SNP to provide confidence and supply at some point along the way.

    Even if the Tories govern very well, eventually people will tire of them. Arguably, Labour just has to rebuild quietly and wait for this to happen so that it can benefit from the swing back, and take the levers of Government for itself. And certainly, if we are returning to a two-party system in most of the country, one can understand why it would take this attitude: historical precedent suggests that, with the smaller players out of the way, relatively modest shifts in public opinion can first demolish large Government majorities, and then put Oppositions into power.
  • TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,683

    I wonder what the currant bun will have for their readers on tomorrows front page?

    At a guess, I don't think they'll be urging them to vote Corbyn!
    Possibly a repeat of the 92 headline; if Corbyn wins would the last person to leave the country please switch out the lights?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,456

    I wonder what the currant bun will have for their readers on tomorrows front page?

    Pages 2 and 3 today were all about how our security services failed to act on the Italian tip off.
    I never put you down as a sun reader....
This discussion has been closed.