Even in office it will hang over them. Wait for the first Newcastle granny to die of hypothermia, and the screaming Mail headlines contrasting her with the happy Glasgow granny in her well heated bungalow, nibbling shortbread, only alive because the Geordie pensioner died because of her Caledonian sister's special Scottish fuel subsidy.
Unbelieveably bad politics by the Tories. They are trying to lose an unloseable election.
Its the bizarre obsession of helping the Scottish Tories who, for all the big talk you read on this site, are still underachieving failures.
There are, of course, no shortage of other things where Scots are given preferential treatment.
Isn't it more about lancing the independence boil which is also being played by ultra Remainers? Killing two whinges with one vote.
The independence movement isn't going to disappear.
It may do. Quebecois independence has rather disappeared.
Even in office it will hang over them. Wait for the first Newcastle granny to die of hypothermia, and the screaming Mail headlines contrasting her with the happy Glasgow granny in her well heated bungalow, nibbling shortbread, only alive because the Geordie pensioner died because of her Caledonian sister's special Scottish fuel subsidy.
Unbelieveably bad politics by the Tories. They are trying to lose an unloseable election.
Its the bizarre obsession of helping the Scottish Tories who, for all the big talk you read on this site, are still underachieving failures.
There are, of course, no shortage of other things where Scots are given preferential treatment.
Isn't it more about lancing the independence boil which is also being played by ultra Remainers? Killing two whinges with one vote.
The independence movement isn't going to disappear.
It may do. Quebecois independence has rather disappeared.
True, though it took about 40 years
Taken a day at a time, same as anything else. Get through the next few years and its entirely possible that like in Quebec the devolution achieved in Scotland satisfies enough to make the plausibility of Sindy disappear.
I have a horrible feeling TMay is gonna come out of this with a barely increased majority. Maybe 20-40 seats in front. A total waste of time.
She will be severely weakened, and our Brexit deal will be considerably worse, and we will all live in fear of a still Corbynized Labour taking over in 2022.
She is a twat.
Question. Until a week ago what was your genuine, unpolitically motivated, opinion on the Triple lock, Winter fuel payments, free tv licences and the rest?
I agree with most of her moves. WFA for millionaires is insane. Remove the triple lock. Rebalance the economy towards the young. Yes Yes Yes.
You just don't put these unpopular policies in a manifesto, in such a crucial election, arguably the most important since 1945. You hint and imply. You suggest, and you win.
So why did she do it? Because she's so uniquely honest? Fuck off, she was insisting for months she would never call an early vote, then suddenly she did, when she saw the political chance, so she's a liar like the rest of them.
This is just a cock-up. They got arrogant and complacent. Hopefully it won't destroy the chances of a very very solid Tory win, but tonight I am wobbly again. I don't like TMay's vision of Britain, the only thing that keeps me voting Tory is Corbyn.
All the 'blood, sweat and tears' imagery is destroyed by giving preferential treatment to crybaby Davidson.
Even in office it will hang over them. Wait for the first Newcastle granny to die of hypothermia, and the screaming Mail headlines contrasting her with the happy Glasgow granny in her well heated bungalow, nibbling shortbread, only alive because the Geordie pensioner died because of her Caledonian sister's special Scottish fuel subsidy.
Unbelieveably bad politics by the Tories. They are trying to lose an unloseable election.
Its the bizarre obsession of helping the Scottish Tories who, for all the big talk you read on this site, are still underachieving failures.
There are, of course, no shortage of other things where Scots are given preferential treatment.
Isn't it more about lancing the independence boil which is also being played by ultra Remainers? Killing two whinges with one vote.
The independence movement isn't going to disappear.
It may do. Quebecois independence has rather disappeared.
Quebec never had Brexit.
Wasn't Quebec opposed to NAFTA? One of the only Canadian provinces to be opposed.
Only a couple of months ago she was forced to abandon a very minor adjustment to the tax system because of a pledge in a manifesto.
Do you mean when May and Hammond tried to hammer the self employed and hit (for example) White Van Man - Another demographic that dared to vote LEAVE of course...
May is hoping to pick up about 10 Scottish SNP seats to get her over the 100 majority mark
100 seat majorities are out of the question now in my view.
Tories might get a 40 or 50 seat majority...
She will still gain about 45 to 50 Labour seats, mainly in the North, the Midlands and Wales, add in 5-10 from the SNP and she has a majority of over 100 even if she loses a handful of seats in London and the South to the LDs
The problem is that I don't think she will make those gains now. She's moved the argument on from being Mrs Brexit for them to a typical Tory who wants to smash the poor northern old people.
With respect that is just so over the top. How does taking WFA away from wealthy pensioners and increasing their capital ptotection to £100,000 smash the poor northern old people, they still keep WFA
As I said above it's not about the specific policy which 99% of people won't read, it's.the perception that the government are keeping it in Scotland and not in the North.
Exactly.
The Conservatives need to point out that if Scotland wants WFA then they will have to raise extra taxes to pay for it.
It's being kept north of the border so that they can nab those seats that Ruth has been targeting. Pure and simple.
But lose more in England and Wales in return.
And what further bribes are tossed to Scotland at the next election and then the next ?
Not exactly a United Kingdom is it.
Will it lose more in England and Wales?
As for further bribes yes I expect there will be, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
May is hoping to pick up about 10 Scottish SNP seats to get her over the 100 majority mark
100 seat majorities are out of the question now in my view.
Tories might get a 40 or 50 seat majority...
She will still gain about 45 to 50 Labour seats, mainly in the North, the Midlands and Wales, add in 5-10 from the SNP and she has a majority of over 100 even if she loses a handful of seats in London and the South to the LDs
The problem is that I don't think she will make those gains now. She's moved the argument on from being Mrs Brexit for them to a typical Tory who wants to smash the poor northern old people.
With respect that is just so over the top. How does taking WFA away from wealthy pensioners and increasing their capital ptotection to £100,000 smash the poor northern old people, they still keep WFA
As I said above it's not about the specific policy which 99% of people won't read, it's.the perception that the government are keeping it in Scotland and not in the North.
Exactly.
The Conservatives need to point out that if Scotland wants WFA then they will have to raise extra taxes to pay for it.
It's being kept north of the border so that they can nab those seats that Ruth has been targeting. Pure and simple.
But lose more in England and Wales in return.
And what further bribes are tossed to Scotland at the next election and then the next ?
Not exactly a United Kingdom is it.
Most of the former Labour and UKIP voters in the North and Wales May is targeting will keep the winter fuel payment, it is only the wealthiest pensioners who will lose out
I have a horrible feeling TMay is gonna come out of this with a barely increased majority. Maybe 20-40 seats in front. A total waste of time.
She will be severely weakened, and our Brexit deal will be considerably worse, and we will all live in fear of a still Corbynized Labour taking over in 2022.
She is a twat.
Question. Until a week ago what was your genuine, unpolitically motivated, opinion on the Triple lock, Winter fuel payments, free tv licences and the rest?
I agree with most of her moves. WFA for millionaires is insane. Remove the triple lock. Rebalance the economy towards the young. Yes Yes Yes.
You just don't put these unpopular policies in a manifesto, in such a crucial election, arguably the most important since 1945. You hint and imply. You suggest, and you win. .
If she didn't include stuff the campaign would be defined by the Tories not saying what they would do, which makes them look like they lack leadership.
No it wouldn't, the answer to every question would have been strong and stable Brexit bs coalition of chaos or whatever it was. That was working. It was cutting through, non-politically inclined friends of mine knew those lines.
Maybe she shouldn't have been honest and that will cost her votes. She goes up in my thoughts then - If the Tories do a good job they should win next time, they don't need to prioritise the biggest majority possible. 50-70 is plenty.
You lot are very wobbly. No offence but I don't you want you in my trench with me. The sound of a single shell and you'd surrender.
Most PB Leavers don't like to say they were motivated by immigration concerns, that shows how unrepresentative it is.
The kind of people who voted for Blair and Cameron aren't going to vote for Corbyn over May
Again, that's not the problem, it's Northern Lab -> UKIP -> Tory voters that will be rushing back to Labour. This is literally the Tories "showing their true colours" for many.
But it's not one thing, it's a catalogue of errors. I can't imagine many of those voters being impressed by fox hunting either.
Contrast and compare to Labour: You may hate Corbyn, but you probably like the idea of renationalising the railiways (for example).
The problem with May's manifesto is it has lots of individual things to dislike but not many things to like.
Perhaps it's a "punishment manifesto" for people who dared to vote LEAVE?
Hah!
But the fact is leaving aside personal leadership ratings, Labour's policies are popular with the electorate, the Conservatives are not.
Labour are promising to shake the magic money tree and eliminate tuition fees and privatise the railways and tax the rich bastards who are making more money than you.
The Tories are promising to steal the homes of dementia sufferers, murder cuddly foxes, snoop on your whatsapp and devalue your pension.
To SeanT's point, even if these are necessary compromises, why the heck put them in a manifesto and make an election platform out of them?
Win a decent majority first and then expend that capital making the difficult decisions. To do otherwise - as the Conservatives appear to be doing - looks like madness or at least incompetence.
A majority of 50-60 against a joke like Corbyn is an abject failure. It paves thje way for a hard left Labour to take power in 2022 on a similar platform but with a more popular leader.
Even in office it will hang over them. Wait for the first Newcastle granny to die of hypothermia, and the screaming Mail headlines contrasting her with the happy Glasgow granny in her well heated bungalow, nibbling shortbread, only alive because the Geordie pensioner died because of her Caledonian sister's special Scottish fuel subsidy.
Unbelieveably bad politics by the Tories. They are trying to lose an unloseable election.
Its the bizarre obsession of helping the Scottish Tories who, for all the big talk you read on this site, are still underachieving failures.
There are, of course, no shortage of other things where Scots are given preferential treatment.
Isn't it more about lancing the independence boil which is also being played by ultra Remainers? Killing two whinges with one vote.
The independence movement isn't going to disappear.
It may do. Quebecois independence has rather disappeared.
For now perhaps.
But the SNP are still going to have a large majority of Scottish MPs in a month.
But it's not one thing, it's a catalogue of errors. I can't imagine many of those voters being impressed by fox hunting either.
Contrast and compare to Labour: You may hate Corbyn, but you probably like the idea of renationalising the railiways (for example).
The problem with May's manifesto is it has lots of individual things to dislike but not many things to like.
Perhaps it's a "punishment manifesto" for people who dared to vote LEAVE?
Hah!
But the fact is leaving aside personal leadership ratings, Labour's policies are popular with the electorate, the Conservatives are not.
Labour are promising to shake the magic money tree and eliminate tuition fees and privatise the railways and tax the rich bastards who are making more money than you.
The Tories are promising to steal the homes of dementia sufferers, murder cuddly foxes, snoop on your whatsapp and devalue your pension.
To SeanT's point, even if these are necessary compromises, why the heck put them in a manifesto and make an election platform out of them?
Win a decent majority first and then expend that capital making the difficult decisions. To do otherwise - as the Conservatives appear to be doing - looks like madness or at least incompetence.
A majority of 50-60 against a joke like Corbyn is an abject failure. It paves thje way for a hard left Labour to take power in 2022 on a similar platform but with a more popular leader.
Only if you assume the Tories will do a bad job and thus be so vulnerable.
Most of the former Labour and UKIP voters in the North and Wales May is targeting will keep the winter fuel payment, it is only the wealthiest pensioners who will lose out
That as may be... But as the Tories haven't been clear on that fact I suspect the vast majority of the people who claim WFA will be assuming they are going to have it taken off them (while the Scots keep there's...)
I have a horrible feeling TMay is gonna come out of this with a barely increased majority. Maybe 20-40 seats in front. A total waste of time.
She will be severely weakened, and our Brexit deal will be considerably worse, and we will all live in fear of a still Corbynized Labour taking over in 2022.
She is a twat.
Question. Until a week ago what was your genuine, unpolitically motivated, opinion on the Triple lock, Winter fuel payments, free tv licences and the rest?
I agree with most of her moves. WFA for millionaires is insane. Remove the triple lock. Rebalance the economy towards the young. Yes Yes Yes.
You just don't put these unpopular policies in a manifesto, in such a crucial election, arguably the most important since 1945. You hint and imply. You suggest, and you win. .
If she didn't include stuff the campaign would be defined by the Tories not saying what they would do, which makes them look like they lack leadership.
No it wouldn't, the answer to every question would have been strong and stable Brexit bs coalition of chaos or whatever it was. That was working. It was cutting through, non-politically inclined friends of mine knew those lines.
Maybe she shouldn't have been honest and that will cost her votes. She goes up in my thoughts then - If the Tories do a good job they should win next time, they don't need to prioritise the biggest majority possible. 50-70 is plenty.
But that was my original point, May isn't very good at politics. She's given away a 120-140 seat majority for something she could have done anyway.
You lot are very wobbly. No offence but I don't you want you in my trench with me. The sound of a single shell and you'd surrender.
Most PB Leavers don't like to say they were motivated by immigration concerns, that shows how unrepresentative it is.
The kind of people who voted for Blair and Cameron aren't going to vote for Corbyn over May
Again, that's not the problem, it's Northern Lab -> UKIP -> Tory voters that will be rushing back to Labour. This is literally the Tories "showing their true colours" for many.
You lot are very wobbly. No offence but I don't you want you in my trench with me. The sound of a single shell and you'd surrender.
It really is pathetic.
What are the front pages dominated by today? None of this.......Ah well, as the old saw goes "The Tories only ever panic in a crisis" - and this isn't even a crisis....
Even in office it will hang over them. Wait for the first Newcastle granny to die of hypothermia, and the screaming Mail headlines contrasting her with the happy Glasgow granny in her well heated bungalow, nibbling shortbread, only alive because the Geordie pensioner died because of her Caledonian sister's special Scottish fuel subsidy.
Unbelieveably bad politics by the Tories. They are trying to lose an unloseable election.
Its the bizarre obsession of helping the Scottish Tories who, for all the big talk you read on this site, are still underachieving failures.
There are, of course, no shortage of other things where Scots are given preferential treatment.
Isn't it more about lancing the independence boil which is also being played by ultra Remainers? Killing two whinges with one vote.
The independence movement isn't going to disappear.
It may do. Quebecois independence has rather disappeared.
Quebec never had Brexit.
And latest independence polls show Brexit has made zero difference it is still about a 10 point lead for No
Press Association estimated declaration times, although usually it's not particularly accurate. Only 3 seats not counting overnight, in Berwick, Wansbeck and Blyth Valley. The last two could be surprisingly close if the local elections are anything to go by.
Even in office it will hang over them. Wait for the first Newcastle granny to die of hypothermia, and the screaming Mail headlines contrasting her with the happy Glasgow granny in her well heated bungalow, nibbling shortbread, only alive because the Geordie pensioner died because of her Caledonian sister's special Scottish fuel subsidy.
Unbelieveably bad politics by the Tories. They are trying to lose an unloseable election.
Its the bizarre obsession of helping the Scottish Tories who, for all the big talk you read on this site, are still underachieving failures.
There are, of course, no shortage of other things where Scots are given preferential treatment.
Isn't it more about lancing the independence boil which is also being played by ultra Remainers? Killing two whinges with one vote.
The independence movement isn't going to disappear.
It may do. Quebecois independence has rather disappeared.
True, though it took about 40 years
Taken a day at a time, same as anything else. Get through the next few years and its entirely possible that like in Quebec the devolution achieved in Scotland satisfies enough to make the plausibility of Sindy disappear.
Quebec got devomax eventually before the second referendum there, Scotland will probably have to get the same
You lot are very wobbly. No offence but I don't you want you in my trench with me. The sound of a single shell and you'd surrender.
Most PB Leavers don't like to say they were motivated by immigration concerns, that shows how unrepresentative it is.
The kind of people who voted for Blair and Cameron aren't going to vote for Corbyn over May
Again, that's not the problem, it's Northern Lab -> UKIP -> Tory voters that will be rushing back to Labour. This is literally the Tories "showing their true colours" for many.
And threaten Brexit -
Pretty much the whole Labour manifesto is predicated on Brexit. Corbyn as PM would still deliver Brexit.
Most of the former Labour and UKIP voters in the North and Wales May is targeting will keep the winter fuel payment, it is only the wealthiest pensioners who will lose out
That as may be... But as the Tories haven't been clear on that fact I suspect the vast majority of the people who claim WFA will be assuming they are going to have it taken off them (while the Scots keep there's...)
I have a horrible feeling TMay is gonna come out of this with a barely increased majority. Maybe 20-40 seats in front. A total waste of time.
She will be severely weakened, and our Brexit deal will be considerably worse, and we will all live in fear of a still Corbynized Labour taking over in 2022.
She is a twat.
Question. Until a week ago what was your genuine, unpolitically motivated, opinion on the Triple lock, Winter fuel payments, free tv licences and the rest?
I agree with most of her moves. WFA for millionaires is insane. Remove the triple lock. Rebalance the economy towards the young. Yes Yes Yes.
You just don't put these unpopular policies in a manifesto, in such a crucial election, arguably the most important since 1945. You hint and imply. You suggest, and you win. .
If she didn't include stuff the campaign would be defined by the Tories not saying what they would do, which makes them look like they lack leadership.
No it wouldn't, the answer to every question would have been strong and stable Brexit bs coalition of chaos or whatever it was. That was working. It was cutting through, non-politically inclined friends of mine knew those lines.
Maybe she shouldn't have been honest and that will cost her votes. She goes up in my thoughts then - If the Tories do a good job they should win next time, they don't need to prioritise the biggest majority possible. 50-70 is plenty.
But that was my original point, May isn't very good at politics. She's given away a 120-140 seat majority for something she could have done anyway.
I've been concerned she wouldn't govern well. This encourages me. If she is better at governing than politics, there's no problem. It's only if she's bad at both that would concern me,
Most of the former Labour and UKIP voters in the North and Wales May is targeting will keep the winter fuel payment, it is only the wealthiest pensioners who will lose out
That as may be... But as the Tories haven't been clear on that fact I suspect the vast majority of the people who claim WFA will be assuming they are going to have it taken off them (while the Scots keep there's...)
Toxic.
Why? All the news reports have been clear the payment will be means tested not ended
May is hoping to pick up about 10 Scottish SNP seats to get her over the 100 majority mark
100 seat majorities are out of the question now in my view.
Tories might get a 40 or 50 seat majority...
She will still gain about 45 to 50 Labour seats, mainly in the North, the Midlands and Wales, add in 5-10 from the SNP and she has a majority of over 100 even if she loses a handful of seats in London and the South to the LDs
The problem is that I don't think she will make those gains now. She's moved the argument on from being Mrs Brexit for them to a typical Tory who wants to smash the poor northern old people.
With respect that is just so over the top. How does taking WFA away from wealthy pensioners and increasing their capital ptotection to £100,000 smash the poor northern old people, they still keep WFA
As I said above it's not about the specific policy which 99% of people won't read, it's.the perception that the government are keeping it in Scotland and not in the North.
Exactly.
The Conservatives need to point out that if Scotland wants WFA then they will have to raise extra taxes to pay for it.
It's being kept north of the border so that they can nab those seats that Ruth has been targeting. Pure and simple.
But lose more in England and Wales in return.
And what further bribes are tossed to Scotland at the next election and then the next ?
Not exactly a United Kingdom is it.
Most of the former Labour and UKIP voters in the North and Wales May is targeting will keep the winter fuel payment, it is only the wealthiest pensioners who will lose out
The principle of giving preferential treatment to Scotland over England (and Wales) is going to damage the Conservative image among more than just rich pensioners.
I have a horrible feeling TMay is gonna come out of this with a barely increased majority. Maybe 20-40 seats in front. A total waste of time.
She will be severely weakened, and our Brexit deal will be considerably worse, and we will all live in fear of a still Corbynized Labour taking over in 2022.
She is a twat.
Question. Until a week ago what was your genuine, unpolitically motivated, opinion on the Triple lock, Winter fuel payments, free tv licences and the rest?
I agree with most of her moves. WFA for millionaires is insane. Remove the triple lock. Rebalance the economy towards the young. Yes Yes Yes.
You just don't put these unpopular policies in a manifesto, in such a crucial election, arguably the most important since 1945. You hint and imply. You suggest, and you win. .
If she didn't include stuff the campaign would be defined by the Tories not saying what they would do, which makes them look like they lack leadership.
No it wouldn't, the answer to every question would have been strong and stable Brexit bs coalition of chaos or whatever it was. That was working. It was cutting through, non-politically inclined friends of mine knew those lines.
Maybe she shouldn't have been honest and that will cost her votes. She goes up in my thoughts then - If the Tories do a good job they should win next time, they don't need to prioritise the biggest majority possible. 50-70 is plenty.
But that was my original point, May isn't very good at politics. She's given away a 120-140 seat majority for something she could have done anyway.
How do you know that - though I did not expect a landslide at anytime. You are upset about a policy which is fair enough but I would suggest you wait to see how this pans out.
And to be fair I want my PM to be honest, even if it is unpopular, but is in the Country's interest
But it's not one thing, it's a catalogue of errors. I can't imagine many of those voters being impressed by fox hunting either.
Contrast and compare to Labour: You may hate Corbyn, but you probably like the idea of renationalising the railiways (for example).
The problem with May's manifesto is it has lots of individual things to dislike but not many things to like.
Perhaps it's a "punishment manifesto" for people who dared to vote LEAVE?
Hah!
But the fact is leaving aside personal leadership ratings, Labour's policies are popular with the electorate, the Conservatives are not.
Labour are promising to shake the magic money tree and eliminate tuition fees and privatise the railways and tax the rich bastards who are making more money than you.
The Tories are promising to steal the homes of dementia sufferers, murder cuddly foxes, snoop on your whatsapp and devalue your pension.
To SeanT's point, even if these are necessary compromises, why the heck put them in a manifesto and make an election platform out of them?
Win a decent majority first and then expend that capital making the difficult decisions. To do otherwise - as the Conservatives appear to be doing - looks like madness or at least incompetence.
A majority of 50-60 against a joke like Corbyn is an abject failure. It paves thje way for a hard left Labour to take power in 2022 on a similar platform but with a more popular leader.
It doesn't show a great deal of faith in Conservative ideas, and the undesirability of a "hard left" platform if you think the only thing preventing it sweeping the UK is Corbyn in charge of it.
You lot are very wobbly. No offence but I don't you want you in my trench with me. The sound of a single shell and you'd surrender.
Most PB Leavers don't like to say they were motivated by immigration concerns, that shows how unrepresentative it is.
The kind of people who voted for Blair and Cameron aren't going to vote for Corbyn over May
Again, that's not the problem, it's Northern Lab -> UKIP -> Tory voters that will be rushing back to Labour. This is literally the Tories "showing their true colours" for many.
And threaten Brexit -
Pretty much the whole Labour manifesto is predicated on Brexit. Corbyn as PM would still deliver Brexit.
Although unclear what the consequences of voting against a deal would be, since it promises a meaningful vote in parliament iirc.
Even in office it will hang over them. Wait for the first Newcastle granny to die of hypothermia, and the screaming Mail headlines contrasting her with the happy Glasgow granny in her well heated bungalow, nibbling shortbread, only alive because the Geordie pensioner died because of her Caledonian sister's special Scottish fuel subsidy.
Unbelieveably bad politics by the Tories. They are trying to lose an unloseable election.
Its the bizarre obsession of helping the Scottish Tories who, for all the big talk you read on this site, are still underachieving failures.
There are, of course, no shortage of other things where Scots are given preferential treatment.
Isn't it more about lancing the independence boil which is also being played by ultra Remainers? Killing two whinges with one vote.
The independence movement isn't going to disappear.
It may do. Quebecois independence has rather disappeared.
Quebec never had Brexit.
Wasn't Quebec opposed to NAFTA? One of the only Canadian provinces to be opposed.
All provinces were opposed. Quebec 32% favourable 57% opposed was the most favourable.
You lot are very wobbly. No offence but I don't you want you in my trench with me. The sound of a single shell and you'd surrender.
Most PB Leavers don't like to say they were motivated by immigration concerns, that shows how unrepresentative it is.
The kind of people who voted for Blair and Cameron aren't going to vote for Corbyn over May
Again, that's not the problem, it's Northern Lab -> UKIP -> Tory voters that will be rushing back to Labour. This is literally the Tories "showing their true colours" for many.
And threaten Brexit -
Pretty much the whole Labour manifesto is predicated on Brexit. Corbyn as PM would still deliver Brexit.
You really are irrational. With 26% corporation tax, anti business, and the march ot the unions we wouln't have a prayer
May 14th to the 20th is the Dementia Awareness Week.
Theresa May [ she leads the Conservative Party ], chose to foist the Dementia Tax appropriately in this week.
But they did demonstrate an admirable commitment to the cause by getting a dementia patient to write their manifesto. Inclusion is not an illusion.
It seems like a necessary policy for a tough problem, albeit maybe it needs tweaking. Certainly it gave me more to think bout than a bland promuse for a national care service or whatever.
But it's not one thing, it's a catalogue of errors. I can't imagine many of those voters being impressed by fox hunting either.
Contrast and compare to Labour: You may hate Corbyn, but you probably like the idea of renationalising the railiways (for example).
The problem with May's manifesto is it has lots of individual things to dislike but not many things to like.
Perhaps it's a "punishment manifesto" for people who dared to vote LEAVE?
Hah!
But the fact is leaving aside personal leadership ratings, Labour's policies are popular with the electorate, the Conservatives are not.
Labour are promising to shake the magic money tree and eliminate tuition fees and privatise the railways and tax the rich bastards who are making more money than you.
The Tories are promising to steal the homes of dementia sufferers, murder cuddly foxes, snoop on your whatsapp and devalue your pension.
To SeanT's point, even if these are necessary compromises, why the heck put them in a manifesto and make an election platform out of them?
Win a decent majority first and then expend that capital making the difficult decisions. To do otherwise - as the Conservatives appear to be doing - looks like madness or at least incompetence.
A majority of 50-60 against a joke like Corbyn is an abject failure. It paves thje way for a hard left Labour to take power in 2022 on a similar platform but with a more popular leader.
It doesn't show a great deal of faith in Conservative ideas, and the undesirability of a "hard left" platform if you think the only thing preventing it sweeping the UK is Corbyn in charge of it.
52% support renationalising the railways to 22% against. 49% support renationalising the energy industry to 24% against. 78% support the ban on foxhunting to 12% against. (ComRes, May 11)
Labour's policies and attitudes are popular - it's Corbyn that's unpopular. I genuinely believe that this manifesto, fronted by someone with better media training and without Corbyn's dubious history, would probably be in the lead right now.
I have a horrible feeling TMay is gonna come out of this with a barely increased majority. Maybe 20-40 seats in front. A total waste of time.
She will be severely weakened, and our Brexit deal will be considerably worse, and we will all live in fear of a still Corbynized Labour taking over in 2022.
She is a twat.
Question. Until a week ago what was your genuine, unpolitically motivated, opinion on the Triple lock, Winter fuel payments, free tv licences and the rest?
I agree with most of her moves. WFA for millionaires is insane. Remove the triple lock. Rebalance the economy towards the young. Yes Yes Yes.
You just don't put these unpopular policies in a manifesto, in such a crucial election, arguably the most important since 1945. You hint and imply. You suggest, and you win. .
If she didn't include stuff the campaign would be defined by the Tories not saying what they would do, which makes them look like they lack leadership.
No it wouldn't, the answer to every question would have been strong and stable Brexit bs coalition of chaos or whatever it was. That was working. It was cutting through, non-politically inclined friends of mine knew those lines.
Maybe she shouldn't have been honest and that will cost her votes. She goes up in my thoughts then - If the Tories do a good job they should win next time, they don't need to prioritise the biggest majority possible. 50-70 is plenty.
But that was my original point, May isn't very good at politics. She's given away a 120-140 seat majority for something she could have done anyway.
How do you know that - though I did not expect a landslide at anytime. You are upset about a policy which is fair enough but I would suggest you wait to see how this pans out.
And to be fair I want my PM to be honest, even if it is unpopular, but is in the Country's interest
If she was honest we wouldn't be having an election. The first promise she broke.
Most of the former Labour and UKIP voters in the North and Wales May is targeting will keep the winter fuel payment, it is only the wealthiest pensioners who will lose out
That as may be... But as the Tories haven't been clear on that fact I suspect the vast majority of the people who claim WFA will be assuming they are going to have it taken off them (while the Scots keep there's...)
Toxic.
Why? All the news reports have been clear the payment will be means tested not ended
"Means tested" can mean anything (a lot of people wouldn't even know what "means tested" means)
Its the level at which you set the test that counts.
You can bet there will be a LOT of old widows, on low incomes, all over England and Wales fearful that they are about to have their WFA taken away from them while Scottish widows keep there's...
I've been concerned she wouldn't govern well. This encourages me. If she is better at governing than politics, there's no problem. It's only if she's bad at both that would concern me,
I think it's been shown often enough that those who can't play the game are also quite poor leaders. Brown comes to mind, good at clearing away internal opposition but very poor at politics when he became PM. May didn't even clear the way internally, she just happened to survive Brexit in one piece. She hasn't been a great leader so far and her policies range from stupid to actually insane.
As @Casino_Royale said the other day, if May can't deliver a 100+ majority then all she will have succeeded in doing is shifting the centre ground significantly to the left. As I said it is easier to fight Labour on Oliver Letwin's battlefield than it will be on Ed Miliband's. The last time Labour won was when they came onto Oliver's lawn and parked their tanks all over it. Now they just need to get a credible leader to do it in Ed's backyard.
May is hoping to pick up about 10 Scottish SNP seats to get her over the 100 majority mark
100 seat majorities are out of the question now in my view.
Tories might get a 40 or 50 seat majority...
She will still gain about 45 to 50 Labour seats, mainly in the North, the Midlands and Wales, add in 5-10 from the SNP and she has a majority of over 100 even if she loses a handful of seats in London and the South to the LDs
The problem is that I don't think she will make those gains now. She's moved the argument on from being Mrs Brexit for them to a typical Tory who wants to smash the poor northern old people.
With respect that is just so over the top. How does taking WFA away from wealthy pensioners and increasing their capital ptotection to £100,000 smash the poor northern old people, they still keep WFA
As I said above it's not about the specific policy which 99% of people won't read, it's.the perception that the government are keeping it in Scotland and not in the North.
Exactly.
The Conservatives need to point out that if Scotland wants WFA then they will have to raise extra taxes to pay for it.
It's being kept north of the border so that they can nab those seats that Ruth has been targeting. Pure and simple.
But lose more in England and Wales in return.
And what further bribes are tossed to Scotland at the next election and then the next ?
Not exactly a United Kingdom is it.
Will it lose more in England and Wales?
As for further bribes yes I expect there will be, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Its most likely to lose more in England and Wales than it gains in Scotland as there are nearly ten times as many MPs in England and Wales.
So those Conservative candidates who lose by 100 votes will know that their defeat was caused by May's pandering to Davidson's big talking.
I suppose if SCON now does gain Moray, Banff, Gordon, Perth and half a dozen others they could argue it was justified.
But it's not one thing, it's a catalogue of errors. I can't imagine many of those voters being impressed by fox hunting either.
Contrast and compare to Labour: You may hate Corbyn, but you probably like the idea of renationalising the railiways (for example).
The problem with May's manifesto is it has lots of individual things to dislike but not many things to like.
Perhaps it's a "punishment manifesto" for people who dared to vote LEAVE?
Hah!
But the fact is leaving aside personal leadership ratings, Labour's policies are popular with the electorate, the Conservatives are not.
Labour are promising to shake the magic money tree and eliminate tuition fees and privatise the railways and tax the rich bastards who are making more money than you.
The Tories are promising to steal the homes of dementia sufferers, murder cuddly foxes, snoop on your whatsapp and devalue your pension.
To SeanT's point, even if these are necessary compromises, why the heck put them in a manifesto and make an election platform out of them?
Win a decent majority first and then expend that capital making the difficult decisions. To do otherwise - as the Conservatives appear to be doing - looks like madness or at least incompetence.
A majority of 50-60 against a joke like Corbyn is an abject failure. It paves thje way for a hard left Labour to take power in 2022 on a similar platform but with a more popular leader.
It doesn't show a great deal of faith in Conservative ideas, and the undesirability of a "hard left" platform if you think the only thing preventing it sweeping the UK is Corbyn in charge of it.
52% support renationalising the railways to 22% against. 49% support renationalising the energy industry to 24% against. 78% support the ban on foxhunting to 12% against. (ComRes, May 11)
Labour's policies and attitudes are popular - it's Corbyn that's unpopular. I genuinely believe that this manifesto, fronted by someone with better media training and without Corbyn's dubious history, would probably be in the lead right now.
I'd support railway nationalization, could live with taking energy back into public ownership and I couldn't care less about fox hunting one way or another.
Even in office it will hang over them. Wait for the first Newcastle granny to die of hypothermia, and the screaming Mail headlines contrasting her with the happy Glasgow granny in her well heated bungalow, nibbling shortbread, only alive because the Geordie pensioner died because of her Caledonian sister's special Scottish fuel subsidy.
Unbelieveably bad politics by the Tories. They are trying to lose an unloseable election.
Its the bizarre obsession of helping the Scottish Tories who, for all the big talk you read on this site, are still underachieving failures.
There are, of course, no shortage of other things where Scots are given preferential treatment.
Isn't it more about lancing the independence boil which is also being played by ultra Remainers? Killing two whinges with one vote.
The independence movement isn't going to disappear.
It may do. Quebecois independence has rather disappeared.
For now perhaps.
But the SNP are still going to have a large majority of Scottish MPs in a month.
The credibility of their calls for another referendum hinge on vote share and votes received, not MPs.
It looks like Winter Fuel Payments may become a matter for devolved administrations, leaving Sturgeon to pick up the bill with her tax varying powers if she chooses.
The Tory differentiation here could pincer the SNP. Davidson is promising something she won't have to follow through on while May can just shift the onus onto the SNP.
You lot are very wobbly. No offence but I don't you want you in my trench with me. The sound of a single shell and you'd surrender.
Most PB Leavers don't like to say they were motivated by immigration concerns, that shows how unrepresentative it is.
The kind of people who voted for Blair and Cameron aren't going to vote for Corbyn over May
Again, that's not the problem, it's Northern Lab -> UKIP -> Tory voters that will be rushing back to Labour. This is literally the Tories "showing their true colours" for many.
And threaten Brexit -
Pretty much the whole Labour manifesto is predicated on Brexit. Corbyn as PM would still deliver Brexit.
You really are irrational. With 26% corporation tax, anti business, and the march ot the unions we wouln't have a prayer
I assure you I'm quite rational, the key group this election are Labour -> UKIP -> Con voters. That group probably doesn't view Labour's manifesto as entirely negative as you or I would given that we are Tory members. Now Mrs Brexit has turned into a typical Tory who hates the North, where does that leave them? We need them to turn out in huge numbers in the North to get a big majority.
If Theresa can shift the argument back to Brexit then she's still got a chance, but a manifesto which values any northerner less than someone else is not helpful. At all.
Even in office it will hang over them. Wait for the first Newcastle granny to die of hypothermia, and the screaming Mail headlines contrasting her with the happy Glasgow granny in her well heated bungalow, nibbling shortbread, only alive because the Geordie pensioner died because of her Caledonian sister's special Scottish fuel subsidy.
Unbelieveably bad politics by the Tories. They are trying to lose an unloseable election.
Its the bizarre obsession of helping the Scottish Tories who, for all the big talk you read on this site, are still underachieving failures.
There are, of course, no shortage of other things where Scots are given preferential treatment.
Isn't it more about lancing the independence boil which is also being played by ultra Remainers? Killing two whinges with one vote.
The independence movement isn't going to disappear.
It may do. Quebecois independence has rather disappeared.
For now perhaps.
But the SNP are still going to have a large majority of Scottish MPs in a month.
The credibility of their calls for another referendum hinge on vote share and votes received, not MPs.
It looks like Winter Fuel Payments may become a matter for devolved administrations, leaving Sturgeon to pick up the bill with her tax varying powers if she chooses.
The Tory differentiation here could pincer the SNP. Davidson is promising something she won't have to follow through on while May can just shift the onus onto the SNP.
Lib Dems support means testing of the Winter Fuel Allowance
You lot are very wobbly. No offence but I don't you want you in my trench with me. The sound of a single shell and you'd surrender.
Most PB Leavers don't like to say they were motivated by immigration concerns, that shows how unrepresentative it is.
The kind of people who voted for Blair and Cameron aren't going to vote for Corbyn over May
Again, that's not the problem, it's Northern Lab -> UKIP -> Tory voters that will be rushing back to Labour. This is literally the Tories "showing their true colours" for many.
And threaten Brexit -
Pretty much the whole Labour manifesto is predicated on Brexit. Corbyn as PM would still deliver Brexit.
You really are irrational. With 26% corporation tax, anti business, and the march ot the unions we wouln't have a prayer
I assure you I'm quite rational, the key group this election are Labour -> UKIP -> Con voters. That group probably doesn't view Labour's manifesto as entirely negative as you or I would given that we are Tory members. Now Mrs Brexit has turned into a typical Tory who hates the North, where does that leave them? We need them to turn out in huge numbers in the North to get a big majority.
If Theresa can shift the argument back to Brexit then she's still got a chance, but a manifesto which values any northerner less than someone else is not helpful. At all.
Rubbish, the average Labour to UKIP to Tory voter will be lucky to have a house worth £150k let alone £500k and will keep most of that even if they need care, they will be on an average or slightly below average UK wage so will not lose winter fuel payments and they will love May's commitment to get immigration below 100 000 a year and her backing for Brexit
You lot are very wobbly. No offence but I don't you want you in my trench with me. The sound of a single shell and you'd surrender.
Most PB Leavers don't like to say they were motivated by immigration concerns, that shows how unrepresentative it is.
The kind of people who voted for Blair and Cameron aren't going to vote for Corbyn over May
Again, that's not the problem, it's Northern Lab -> UKIP -> Tory voters that will be rushing back to Labour. This is literally the Tories "showing their true colours" for many.
And threaten Brexit -
Pretty much the whole Labour manifesto is predicated on Brexit. Corbyn as PM would still deliver Brexit.
You really are irrational. With 26% corporation tax, anti business, and the march ot the unions we wouln't have a prayer
I assure you I'm quite rational, the key group this election are Labour -> UKIP -> Con voters. That group probably doesn't view Labour's manifesto as entirely negative as you or I would given that we are Tory members. Now Mrs Brexit has turned into a typical Tory who hates the North, where does that leave them? We need them to turn out in huge numbers in the North to get a big majority.
If Theresa can shift the argument back to Brexit then she's still got a chance, but a manifesto which values any northerner less than someone else is not helpful. At all.
It doesn't show a great deal of faith in Conservative ideas, and the undesirability of a "hard left" platform if you think the only thing preventing it sweeping the UK is Corbyn in charge of it.
52% support renationalising the railways to 22% against. 49% support renationalising the energy industry to 24% against. 78% support the ban on foxhunting to 12% against. (ComRes, May 11)
Labour's policies and attitudes are popular - it's Corbyn that's unpopular. I genuinely believe that this manifesto, fronted by someone with better media training and without Corbyn's dubious history, would probably be in the lead right now.
I'd support railway nationalization, could live with taking energy back into public ownership and I couldn't care less about fox hunting one way or another.
Should I vote Jezza?
The trouble is the Labour Manifesto has plenty of individual policies that are overwhelmingly popular with the electorate.
The Conservative policy does not.
Aside from the fact that dementia tax and so on make wavering Lab voters and Lab > Ukip > Con voters think the Tories are the 'nasty' party again and return home, the problem is Theresa May simply hasn't given anyone a positive reason to vote for her yet.
Being 'I'm not Corbyn' is probably good enough to get her over the line, but only just.
As a Labour supporter, (but not a Corbynite), I am relatively sanguine about this election. What has been lost? An extra TWO years of Conservative rule. What has been gained? The Conservative Party as the Brexit coalition, owning all of the fall-out, and the inevitable winners AND losers from the process. An abandonment of free markets as the only solution to any and all difficulties. Re-nationalisation introduced as a subject for discussion. Price controls on the table too. No promises of no tax rises. The deficit kicked down the road. The real prospect of Keynesian deficit financing as a govt policy. Legal marijuana openly discussed. Tories wanting to regulate Internet companies. Pensioners no longer immune from cuts. Above all, the possibility of Corbyn going. Sounds like a win for me.
But it's not one thing, it's a catalogue of errors. I can't imagine many of those voters being impressed by fox hunting either.
Contrast and compare to Labour: You may hate Corbyn, but you probably like the idea of renationalising the railiways (for example).
The problem with May's manifesto is it has lots of individual things to dislike but not many things to like.
Perhaps it's a "punishment manifesto" for people who dared to vote LEAVE?
Hah!
But the fact is leaving aside personal leadership ratings, Labour's policies are popular with the electorate, the Conservatives are not.
Labour are promising to shake the magic money tree and eliminate tuition fees and privatise the railways and tax the rich bastards who are making more money than you.
The Tories are promising to steal the homes of dementia sufferers, murder cuddly foxes, snoop on your whatsapp and devalue your pension.
To SeanT's point, even if these are necessary compromises, why the heck put them in a manifesto and make an election platform out of them?
Win a decent majority first and then expend that capital making the difficult decisions. To do otherwise - as the Conservatives appear to be doing - looks like madness or at least incompetence.
A majority of 50-60 against a joke like Corbyn is an abject failure. It paves thje way for a hard left Labour to take power in 2022 on a similar platform but with a more popular leader.
It doesn't show a great deal of faith in Conservative ideas, and the undesirability of a "hard left" platform if you think the only thing preventing it sweeping the UK is Corbyn in charge of it.
52% support renationalising the railways to 22% against. 49% support renationalising the energy industry to 24% against. 78% support the ban on foxhunting to 12% against. (ComRes, May 11)
Labour's policies and attitudes are popular - it's Corbyn that's unpopular. I genuinely believe that this manifesto, fronted by someone with better media training and without Corbyn's dubious history, would probably be in the lead right now.
The Ipsos Issues Index would give those three topics respective ratings of 0%, 0% and 0% in terms of expressions of public concern.
If Labour was led by a centrist, perhaps this is the debate that Britain would be having. Instead, the contest is between an inept radical and a highly competent prime minister who speaks to the mainstream of British opinion. It is a choice not just between the past and the future, but a past in which men such as Mr Corbyn made dreadful, unethical choices that the voters must reject all over again. It is time for the country to move on.
As a Labour supporter, (but not a Corbynite), I am relatively sanguine about this election. What has been lost? An extra TWO years of Conservative rule. What has been gained? An abandonment of free markets as the only solution to any and all difficulties. Re-nationalisation introduced as a subject for discussion. Price controls on the table too. No promises of no tax rises. The deficit kicked down the road. The real prospect of Keynesian deficit financing as a govt policy. Legal marijuana openly discussed. Tories wanting to regulate Internet companies. Pensioners no longer immune from cuts. Above all, the possibility of Corbyn going. Sounds like a win for me.
Assuming he gets a decent vote share or number of seats... why would Corbyn go, having achieved all of the above?
Even in office it will hang over them. Wait for the first Newcastle granny to die of hypothermia, and the screaming Mail headlines contrasting her with the happy Glasgow granny in her well heated bungalow, nibbling shortbread, only alive because the Geordie pensioner died because of her Caledonian sister's special Scottish fuel subsidy.
Unbelieveably bad politics by the Tories. They are trying to lose an unloseable election.
Its the bizarre obsession of helping the Scottish Tories who, for all the big talk you read on this site, are still underachieving failures.
There are, of course, no shortage of other things where Scots are given preferential treatment.
Isn't it more about lancing the independence boil which is also being played by ultra Remainers? Killing two whinges with one vote.
The independence movement isn't going to disappear.
It may do. Quebecois independence has rather disappeared.
For now perhaps.
But the SNP are still going to have a large majority of Scottish MPs in a month.
The credibility of their calls for another referendum hinge on vote share and votes received, not MPs.
It looks like Winter Fuel Payments may become a matter for devolved administrations, leaving Sturgeon to pick up the bill with her tax varying powers if she chooses.
The Tory differentiation here could pincer the SNP. Davidson is promising something she won't have to follow through on while May can just shift the onus onto the SNP.
But how many people in England understand about devolved tax raising powers ?
What they're going to hear is that WFA is being stopped in England but continuing in Scotland.
The imagery of this is not good for the Conservatives - people don't feel good when they feel discriminated against. And 'strong and stable' isn't the image of those who give preferential treatment to demanding crybabys.
You lot are very wobbly. No offence but I don't you want you in my trench with me. The sound of a single shell and you'd surrender.
Most PB Leavers don't like to say they were motivated by immigration concerns, that shows how unrepresentative it is.
The kind of people who voted for Blair and Cameron aren't going to vote for Corbyn over May
Again, that's not the problem, it's Northern Lab -> UKIP -> Tory voters that will be rushing back to Labour. This is literally the Tories "showing their true colours" for many.
And threaten Brexit -
Pretty much the whole Labour manifesto is predicated on Brexit. Corbyn as PM would still deliver Brexit.
You really are irrational. With 26% corporation tax, anti business, and the march ot the unions we wouln't have a prayer
I assure you I'm quite rational, the key group this election are Labour -> UKIP -> Con voters. That group probably doesn't view Labour's manifesto as entirely negative as you or I would given that we are Tory members. Now Mrs Brexit has turned into a typical Tory who hates the North, where does that leave them? We need them to turn out in huge numbers in the North to get a big majority.
If Theresa can shift the argument back to Brexit then she's still got a chance, but a manifesto which values any northerner less than someone else is not helpful. At all.
Where does she hate the north for goodness sake
Again, it's the perception that matters in politics, not the truth. Again, a reason she is clearly not very good at this. Someone on here said she's a good ground war campaigner, but I think we can safely say she is not cut out to fight the air war. At all.
Most of the former Labour and UKIP voters in the North and Wales May is targeting will keep the winter fuel payment, it is only the wealthiest pensioners who will lose out
That as may be... But as the Tories haven't been clear on that fact I suspect the vast majority of the people who claim WFA will be assuming they are going to have it taken off them (while the Scots keep there's...)
Toxic.
Why? All the news reports have been clear the payment will be means tested not ended
"Means tested" can mean anything (a lot of people wouldn't even know what "means tested" means)
Its the level at which you set the test that counts.
You can bet there will be a LOT of old widows, on low incomes, all over England and Wales fearful that they are about to have their WFA taken away from them while Scottish widows keep there's...
Again, rubbish, unless you are actually in Scotland I doubt you will even notice Davidson's promise
May is hoping to pick up about 10 Scottish SNP seats to get her over the 100 majority mark
100 seat majorities are out of the question now in my view.
Tories might get a 40 or 50 seat majority...
She will still gain about 45 to 50 Labour seats, mainly in the North, the Midlands and Wales, add in 5-10 from the SNP and she has a majority of over 100 even if she loses a handful of seats in London and the South to the LDs
The problem is that I don't think she will make those gains now. She's moved the argument on from being Mrs Brexit for them to a typical Tory who wants to smash the poor northern old people.
With respect that is just so over the top. How does taking WFA away from wealthy pensioners and increasing their capital ptotection to £100,000 smash the poor northern old people, they still keep WFA
As I said above it's not about the specific policy which 99% of people won't read, it's.the perception that the government are keeping it in Scotland and not in the North.
Exactly.
The Conservatives need to point out that if Scotland wants WFA then they will have to raise extra taxes to pay for it.
It's being kept north of the border so that they can nab those seats that Ruth has been targeting. Pure and simple.
But lose more in England and Wales in return.
And what further bribes are tossed to Scotland at the next election and then the next ?
Not exactly a United Kingdom is it.
Most of the former Labour and UKIP voters in the North and Wales May is targeting will keep the winter fuel payment, it is only the wealthiest pensioners who will lose out
The principle of giving preferential treatment to Scotland over England (and Wales) is going to damage the Conservative image among more than just rich pensioners.
No it won't, Scotland has a devolved Parliament and most UKIP to Tory switchers did so over Brexit and immigration controls and will not lose a penny from means tested winter fuel allowance
Having been away I'm just catching up on how the Tories have turned into the Stupid Fuckwits Party again, whilst Labour against all odds is increasingly looking like it has fair and popular policies and forward momentum.
How on earth has this come to pass?
Contriving to lose an election they looked set to win by a landslide?
I'm incensed by this fuckwittery. As a lifelong Tory voter, can I actually trust this lot (eg on negotiating Brexit or managing the economy) when they do get back in? I might not bother voting this time. Serve them right if they lose and unleash Corbyn on the nation.
You lot are very wobbly. No offence but I don't you want you in my trench with me. The sound of a single shell and you'd surrender.
Most PB Leavers don't like to say they were motivated by immigration concerns, that shows how unrepresentative it is.
The kind of people who voted for Blair and Cameron aren't going to vote for Corbyn over May
Again, that's not the problem, it's Northern Lab -> UKIP -> Tory voters that will be rushing back to Labour. This is literally the Tories "showing their true colours" for many.
And threaten Brexit -
Pretty much the whole Labour manifesto is predicated on Brexit. Corbyn as PM would still deliver Brexit.
You really are irrational. With 26% corporation tax, anti business, and the march ot the unions we wouln't have a prayer
I assure you I'm quite rational, the key group this election are Labour -> UKIP -> Con voters. That group probably doesn't view Labour's manifesto as entirely negative as you or I would given that we are Tory members. Now Mrs Brexit has turned into a typical Tory who hates the North, where does that leave them? We need them to turn out in huge numbers in the North to get a big majority.
If Theresa can shift the argument back to Brexit then she's still got a chance, but a manifesto which values any northerner less than someone else is not helpful. At all.
Where does she hate the north for goodness sake
Again, it's the perception that matters in politics, not the truth. Again, a reason she is clearly not very good at this. Someone on here said she's a good ground war campaigner, but I think we can safely say she is not cut out to fight the air war. At all.
I do not even see the perception. Those in the North will keep £100,000, can stay in their home, and if on pensioners credits will receive WFA
Most of the former Labour and UKIP voters in the North and Wales May is targeting will keep the winter fuel payment, it is only the wealthiest pensioners who will lose out
That as may be... But as the Tories haven't been clear on that fact I suspect the vast majority of the people who claim WFA will be assuming they are going to have it taken off them (while the Scots keep there's...)
Toxic.
Why? All the news reports have been clear the payment will be means tested not ended
"Means tested" can mean anything (a lot of people wouldn't even know what "means tested" means)
Its the level at which you set the test that counts.
You can bet there will be a LOT of old widows, on low incomes, all over England and Wales fearful that they are about to have their WFA taken away from them while Scottish widows keep there's...
Again, rubbish, unless you are actually in Scotland I doubt you will even notice Davidson's promise
It was all over the telly news tonight and will run through the weekend I'm guessing ?
You lot are very wobbly. No offence but I don't you want you in my trench with me. The sound of a single shell and you'd surrender.
Most PB Leavers don't like to say they were motivated by immigration concerns, that shows how unrepresentative it is.
The kind of people who voted for Blair and Cameron aren't going to vote for Corbyn over May
Again, that's not the problem, it's Northern Lab -> UKIP -> Tory voters that will be rushing back to Labour. This is literally the Tories "showing their true colours" for many.
And threaten Brexit -
Pretty much the whole Labour manifesto is predicated on Brexit. Corbyn as PM would still deliver Brexit.
You really are irrational. With 26% corporation tax, anti business, and the march ot the unions we wouln't have a prayer
I assure you I'm quite rational, the key group this election are Labour -> UKIP -> Con voters. That group probably doesn't view Labour's manifesto as entirely negative as you or I would given that we are Tory members. Now Mrs Brexit has turned into a typical Tory who hates the North, where does that leave them? We need them to turn out in huge numbers in the North to get a big majority.
If Theresa can shift the argument back to Brexit then she's still got a chance, but a manifesto which values any northerner less than someone else is not helpful. At all.
Where does she hate the north for goodness sake
Its the imagery - looking like she's giving preferential treatment to Scotland.
But it's not one thing, it's a catalogue of errors. I can't imagine many of those voters being impressed by fox hunting either.
Contrast and compare to Labour: You may hate Corbyn, but you probably like the idea of renationalising the railiways (for example).
The problem with May's manifesto is it has lots of individual things to dislike but not many things to like.
Perhaps it's a "punishment manifesto" for people who dared to vote LEAVE?
Hah!
But the fact is leaving aside personal leadership ratings, Labour's policies are popular with the electorate, the Conservatives are not.
Labour are promising to shake the magic money tree and eliminate tuition fees and privatise the railways and tax the rich bastards who are making more money than you.
The Tories are promising to steal the homes of dementia sufferers, murder cuddly foxes, snoop on your whatsapp and devalue your pension.
To SeanT's point, even if these are necessary compromises, why the heck put them in a manifesto and make an election platform out of them?
Win a decent majority first and then expend that capital making the difficult decisions. To do otherwise - as the Conservatives appear to be doing - looks like madness or at least incompetence.
A majority of 50-60 against a joke like Corbyn is an abject failure. It paves thje way for a hard left Labour to take power in 2022 on a similar platform but with a more popular leader.
It doesn't show a great deal of faith in Conservative ideas, and the undesirability of a "hard left" platform if you think the only thing preventing it sweeping the UK is Corbyn in charge of it.
52% support renationalising the railways to 22% against. 49% support renationalising the energy industry to 24% against. 78% support the ban on foxhunting to 12% against. (ComRes, May 11)
Labour's policies and attitudes are popular - it's Corbyn that's unpopular. I genuinely believe that this manifesto, fronted by someone with better media training and without Corbyn's dubious history, would probably be in the lead right now.
Polling also shows voters want to scrap overseas aid, reduce welfare payments for those out of work, cut their own taxes, have much tougher sentences on criminals and slash immigration and of course they voted to Leave the EU, want they want is Ed Miliband economics with Enoch Powell social policies at the moment it seems and May gets that
You lot are very wobbly. No offence but I don't you want you in my trench with me. The sound of a single shell and you'd surrender.
Most PB Leavers don't like to say they were motivated by immigration concerns, that shows how unrepresentative it is.
The kind of people who voted for Blair and Cameron aren't going to vote for Corbyn over May
Again, that's not the problem, it's Northern Lab -> UKIP -> Tory voters that will be rushing back to Labour. This is literally the Tories "showing their true colours" for many.
And threaten Brexit -
Pretty much the whole Labour manifesto is predicated on Brexit. Corbyn as PM would still deliver Brexit.
You really are irrational. With 26% corporation tax, anti business, and the march ot the unions we wouln't have a prayer
I assure you I'm quite rational, the key group this election are Labour -> UKIP -> Con voters. That group probably doesn't view Labour's manifesto as entirely negative as you or I would given that we are Tory members. Now Mrs Brexit has turned into a typical Tory who hates the North, where does that leave them? We need them to turn out in huge numbers in the North to get a big majority.
If Theresa can shift the argument back to Brexit then she's still got a chance, but a manifesto which values any northerner less than someone else is not helpful. At all.
Where does she hate the north for goodness sake
Again, it's the perception that matters in politics, not the truth. Again, a reason she is clearly not very good at this. Someone on here said she's a good ground war campaigner, but I think we can safely say she is not cut out to fight the air war. At all.
I do not even see the perception. Those in the North will keep £100,000, can stay in their home, and if on pensioners credits will receive WFA
Let's wait and see how it develops over the weekend, I'm sure that by the end of it additional funding will be made available to keep the WFA in the North until 2022. It's the easy way out of this jam.
52% support renationalising the railways to 22% against. 49% support renationalising the energy industry to 24% against. 78% support the ban on foxhunting to 12% against. (ComRes, May 11)
Labour's policies and attitudes are popular - it's Corbyn that's unpopular. I genuinely believe that this manifesto, fronted by someone with better media training and without Corbyn's dubious history, would probably be in the lead right now.
The Ipsos Issues Index would give those three topics respective ratings of 0%, 0% and 0% in terms of expressions of public concern.
The public don't care.
Questionable. it's about the bigger picture, not individual policies. The public probably don't vote specifically based on individual issues like fox hunting or railway nationalisation per se, it's more the feeling that voting for each party gives you.
Labour gives you a warm fuzzy feeling about doing good, about redressing imbalances in society, about voting for a raft of policies you are probably in favour of.
The Tory manifesto is about stealing pensioners' homes and killing cuddly foxes. Labour have presented a positive vision of the country going forward, the Conservatives have offered us nothing more than more dull grey austerity mixed with parochialism / nanny-statism.
I stand by my belief that Labour would be serious contenders right now against a May-led Conservative party if they had a more telegenic and less controversial leader.
You lot are very wobbly. No offence but I don't you want you in my trench with me. The sound of a single shell and you'd surrender.
Most PB Leavers don't like to say they were motivated by immigration concerns, that shows how unrepresentative it is.
The kind of people who voted for Blair and Cameron aren't going to vote for Corbyn over May
Again, that's not the problem, it's Northern Lab -> UKIP -> Tory voters that will be rushing back to Labour. This is literally the Tories "showing their true colours" for many.
And threaten Brexit -
Pretty much the whole Labour manifesto is predicated on Brexit. Corbyn as PM would still deliver Brexit.
You really are irrational. With 26% corporation tax, anti business, and the march ot the unions we wouln't have a prayer
I assure you I'm quite rational, the key group this election are Labour -> UKIP -> Con voters. That group probably doesn't view Labour's manifesto as entirely negative as you or I would given that we are Tory members. Now Mrs Brexit has turned into a typical Tory who hates the North, where does that leave them? We need them to turn out in huge numbers in the North to get a big majority.
If Theresa can shift the argument back to Brexit then she's still got a chance, but a manifesto which values any northerner less than someone else is not helpful. At all.
Rubbish, the average Labour to UKIP to Tory voter will be lucky to have a house worth £150k let alone £500k and will keep most of that even if they need care, they will be on an average or slightly below average UK wage so will not lose winter fuel payments and they will love May's commitment to get immigration below 100 000 a year and her backing for Brexit
Will they love being told that they're less important than Scots and less entitled to WFA ?
Because that's the imagery May has allowed to happen.
Having been away I'm just catching up on how the Tories have turned into the Stupid Fuckwits Party again, whilst Labour against all odds is increasingly looking like it has fair and popular policies and forward momentum.
How on earth has this come to pass?
Contriving to lose an election they looked set to win by a landslide?
I'm incensed by this fuckwittery. As a lifelong Tory voter, can I actually trust this lot (eg on negotiating Brexit or managing the economy) when they do get back in? I might not bother voting this time. Serve them right if they lose and unleash Corbyn on the nation.
Indeed, Bob. The worst part is that she's successfully doing what Tony and Gordon failed to do for 13 years by moving the political centre of gravity significantly to the left. She's a disaster.
i would hazard a guess that most lower income pensioners will know that they will be fine unless they have at least ten grand in the bank, and that assumes pension credit as the lowest possible means test level.
You lot are very wobbly. No offence but I don't you want you in my trench with me. The sound of a single shell and you'd surrender.
Most PB Leavers don't like to say they were motivated by immigration concerns, that shows how unrepresentative it is.
The kind of people who voted for Blair and Cameron aren't going to vote for Corbyn over May
Again, that's not the problem, it's Northern Lab -> UKIP -> Tory voters that will be rushing back to Labour. This is literally the Tories "showing their true colours" for many.
And threaten Brexit -
Pretty much the whole Labour manifesto is predicated on Brexit. Corbyn as PM would still deliver Brexit.
You really are irrational. With 26% corporation tax, anti business, and the march ot the unions we wouln't have a prayer
I assure you I'm quite rational, the key group this election are Labour -> UKIP -> Con voters. That group probably doesn't view Labour's manifesto as entirely negative as you or I would given that we are Tory members. Now Mrs Brexit has turned into a typical Tory who hates the North, where does that leave them? We need them to turn out in huge numbers in the North to get a big majority.
If Theresa can shift the argument back to Brexit then she's still got a chance, but a manifesto which values any northerner less than someone else is not helpful. At all.
Where does she hate the north for goodness sake
Again, it's the perception that matters in politics, not the truth. Again, a reason she is clearly not very good at this. Someone on here said she's a good ground war campaigner, but I think we can safely say she is not cut out to fight the air war. At all.
I do not even see the perception. Those in the North will keep £100,000, can stay in their home, and if on pensioners credits will receive WFA
Let's wait and see how it develops over the weekend, I'm sure that by the end of it additional funding will be made available to keep the WFA in the North until 2022. It's the easy way out of this jam.
You lot are very wobbly. No offence but I don't you want you in my trench with me. The sound of a single shell and you'd surrender.
Most PB Leavers don't like to say they were motivated by immigration concerns, that shows how unrepresentative it is.
The kind of people who voted for Blair and Cameron aren't going to vote for Corbyn over May
Again, that's not the problem, it's Northern Lab -> UKIP -> Tory voters that will be rushing back to Labour. This is literally the Tories "showing their true colours" for many.
And threaten Brexit -
Pretty much the whole Labour manifesto is predicated on Brexit. Corbyn as PM would still deliver Brexit.
You really are irrational. With 26% corporation tax, anti business, and the march ot the unions we wouln't have a prayer
I assure you I'm quite rational, the key group this election are Labour -> UKIP -> Con voters. That group probably doesn't view Labour's manifesto as entirely negative as you or I would given that we are Tory members. Now Mrs Brexit has turned into a typical Tory who hates the North, where does that leave them? We need them to turn out in huge numbers in the North to get a big majority.
If Theresa can shift the argument back to Brexit then she's still got a chance, but a manifesto which values any northerner less than someone else is not helpful. At all.
Where does she hate the north for goodness sake
Again, it's the perception that matters in politics, not the truth. Again, a reason she is clearly not very good at this. Someone on here said she's a good ground war campaigner, but I think we can safely say she is not cut out to fight the air war. At all.
I do not even see the perception. Those in the North will keep £100,000, can stay in their home, and if on pensioners credits will receive WFA
Let's wait and see how it develops over the weekend, I'm sure that by the end of it additional funding will be made available to keep the WFA in the North until 2022. It's the easy way out of this jam.
Having been away I'm just catching up on how the Tories have turned into the Stupid Fuckwits Party again, whilst Labour against all odds is increasingly looking like it has fair and popular policies and forward momentum.
How on earth has this come to pass?
Contriving to lose an election they looked set to win by a landslide?
I'm incensed by this fuckwittery. As a lifelong Tory voter, can I actually trust this lot (eg on negotiating Brexit or managing the economy) when they do get back in? I might not bother voting this time. Serve them right if they lose and unleash Corbyn on the nation.
Indeed, Bob. The worst part is that she's successfully doing what Tony and Gordon failed to do for 13 years by moving the political centre of gravity significantly to the left. She's a disaster.
The economic ground maybe, the social ground has moved to the right, even the Labour Party has accepted Brexit, unthinkable under New Labour
You lot are very wobbly. No offence but I don't you want you in my trench with me. The sound of a single shell and you'd surrender.
Most PB Leavers don't like to say they were motivated by immigration concerns, that shows how unrepresentative it is.
The kind of people who voted for Blair and Cameron aren't going to vote for Corbyn over May
Again, that's not the problem, it's Northern Lab -> UKIP -> Tory voters that will be rushing back to Labour. This is literally the Tories "showing their true colours" for many.
And threaten Brexit -
Pretty much the whole Labour manifesto is predicated on Brexit. Corbyn as PM would still deliver Brexit.
You really are irrational. With 26% corporation tax, anti business, and the march ot the unions we wouln't have a prayer
I assure you I'm quite rational, the key group this election are Labour -> UKIP -> Con voters. That group probably doesn't view Labour's manifesto as entirely negative as you or I would given that we are Tory members. Now Mrs Brexit has turned into a typical Tory who hates the North, where does that leave them? We need them to turn out in huge numbers in the North to get a big majority.
If Theresa can shift the argument back to Brexit then she's still got a chance, but a manifesto which values any northerner less than someone else is not helpful. At all.
Rubbish, the average Labour to UKIP to Tory voter will be lucky to have a house worth £150k let alone £500k and will keep most of that even if they need care, they will be on an average or slightly below average UK wage so will not lose winter fuel payments and they will love May's commitment to get immigration below 100 000 a year and her backing for Brexit
Will they love being told that they're less important than Scots and less entitled to WFA ?
Because that's the imagery May has allowed to happen.
Rubbish, Davidson's comments do not even make the main headlines outside of Scotland, the main people who are annoyed at May are wealthy southerners and Londoners, Northerners and those in the Midlands and Wales will be barely affected at all
52% support renationalising the railways to 22% against. 49% support renationalising the energy industry to 24% against. 78% support the ban on foxhunting to 12% against. (ComRes, May 11)
Labour's policies and attitudes are popular - it's Corbyn that's unpopular. I genuinely believe that this manifesto, fronted by someone with better media training and without Corbyn's dubious history, would probably be in the lead right now.
Polling also shows voters want to scrap overseas aid, reduce welfare payments for those out of work, cut their own taxes, have much tougher sentences on criminals and slash immigration and of course they voted to Leave the EU, want they want is Ed Miliband economics with Enoch Powell social policies at the moment it seems and May gets that
If May gets that, then how come those policies aren't the headlines from this week?
It smacks of unforced errors and incompetence from the Conservative team. If nothing else, it no longer feels like they are in control of the narrative.
We'll see what the polls say this weekend but May has quite possibly thrown away a 150+ seat majority and enabled the hard left to survive, embed themselves within Labour, and stage a comeback in 2022. A truly terrifying prospect.
A proper conservative leader would have taken the opportunity to stomp the a hard left opposition into the ground, instead, she's shifted the party to the left while simultaneously making the Tories look even more like the 'nasty' party.
Saw some comments down thread about this manifesto not appealing to anyone (and specifically referencing 'small state voters'), so I thought I would chip in with my tuppence.
There is a very large group of people in this country who lean to the right on 'social' issues (like immigration, law and order, the EU etc) but are rather more centrist or even leftwards leaning on public services and economic issues. These are the sorts of people who were not keen on, for example, privatisation of the Royal Mail, and don't have any ideological objections to government intervention in industry. Most come from the skilled working and lower middle classes. Tony Blair to a certain extent tried to appeal to this group, but Cameron and Osborne never really got its measure. It's also underrepresented in the broadsheet press (although the Sun and Daily Mail/Express get their biggest sales figures in this demographic). Theresa May both comes from this demographic group and is appealing to it, in a way that no-one has tried to in quite some time. That's why she is getting poll ratings which are 10% north of Cameron/Osborne.
I also suspect that there are a surprisingly large number of dyed in the wool Tory supporters and members who are not averse to economic intervention in certain circumstances. IN fact I think the number of ideological free marketeers/small state activists are pretty low even amongst those particular groups - but they are a very loud segment.
As for the social care elements of the Tory manifesto, we shall see. I rather take DavidL's view on it that it is a brave commitment in the Yes Minister sense, but better to have it in the manifesto and get a mandate for it even if the Tories do not win as many seats as they otherwise might, than to leave it out and be subject to charges of hoodwinking the electorate in a few years time.
As a Labour supporter, (but not a Corbynite), I am relatively sanguine about this election. What has been lost? An extra TWO years of Conservative rule. What has been gained? An abandonment of free markets as the only solution to any and all difficulties. Re-nationalisation introduced as a subject for discussion. Price controls on the table too. No promises of no tax rises. The deficit kicked down the road. The real prospect of Keynesian deficit financing as a govt policy. Legal marijuana openly discussed. Tories wanting to regulate Internet companies. Pensioners no longer immune from cuts. Above all, the possibility of Corbyn going. Sounds like a win for me.
Assuming he gets a decent vote share or number of seats... why would Corbyn go, having achieved all of the above?
He may not. He hasn't achieved all of the above. Some of it has been gifted him. But he is 67. Will be 72 in 2022. Would he want to? Still think there will be a majority of 100+. Labour ideas have been adopted by the Tories, and will be subjects for political discussion. You intervene on A why not B? You intervene on A why not more?
Most of the former Labour and UKIP voters in the North and Wales May is targeting will keep the winter fuel payment, it is only the wealthiest pensioners who will lose out
That as may be... But as the Tories haven't been clear on that fact I suspect the vast majority of the people who claim WFA will be assuming they are going to have it taken off them (while the Scots keep there's...)
Toxic.
Why? All the news reports have been clear the payment will be means tested not ended
"Means tested" can mean anything (a lot of people wouldn't even know what "means tested" means)
Its the level at which you set the test that counts.
You can bet there will be a LOT of old widows, on low incomes, all over England and Wales fearful that they are about to have their WFA taken away from them while Scottish widows keep there's...
Again, rubbish, unless you are actually in Scotland I doubt you will even notice Davidson's promise
It was all over the telly news tonight and will run through the weekend I'm guessing ?
100 seat majorities are out of the question now in my view.
Tories might get a 40 or 50 seat majority...
She will still gain about 45 to 50 Labour seats, mainly in the North, the Midlands and Wales, add in 5-10 from the SNP and she has a majority of over 100 even if she loses a handful of seats in London and the South to the LDs
The problem is that I don't think she will make those gains now. She's moved the argument on from being Mrs Brexit for them to a typical Tory who wants to smash the poor northern old people.
With respect that is just so over the top. How does taking WFA away from wealthy pensioners and increasing their capital ptotection to £100,000 smash the poor northern old people, they still keep WFA
As I said above it's not about the specific policy which 99% of people won't read, it's.the perception that the government are keeping it in Scotland and not in the North.
Exactly.
The Conservatives need to point out that if Scotland wants WFA then they will have to raise extra taxes to pay for it.
It's being kept north of the border so that they can nab those seats that Ruth has been targeting. Pure and simple.
But lose more in England and Wales in return.
And what further bribes are tossed to Scotland at the next election and then the next ?
Not exactly a United Kingdom is it.
Most of the former Labour and UKIP voters in the North and Wales May is targeting will keep the winter fuel payment, it is only the wealthiest pensioners who will lose out
The principle of giving preferential treatment to Scotland over England (and Wales) is going to damage the Conservative image among more than just rich pensioners.
No it won't, Scotland has a devolved Parliament and most UKIP to Tory switchers did so over Brexit and immigration controls and will not lose a penny from means tested winter fuel allowance
It already has - read the comments below.
And as I said this has the power to aggravate far beyond those people concerned.
Why are you pretending that people aren't going to be annoyed if they think the government is giving preferential treatment to others ?
Saw some comments down thread about this manifesto not appealing to anyone (and specifically referencing 'small state voters'), so I thought I would chip in with my tuppence.
There is a very large group of people in this country who lean to the right on 'social' issues (like immigration, law and order, the EU etc) but are rather more centrist or even leftwards leaning on public services and economic issues. These are the sorts of people who were not keen on, for example, privatisation of the Royal Mail, and don't have any ideological objections to government intervention in industry. Most come from the skilled working and lower middle classes. Tony Blair to a certain extent tried to appeal to this group, but Cameron and Osborne never really got its measure. It's also underrepresented in the broadsheet press (although the Sun and Daily Mail/Express get their biggest sales figures in this demographic). Theresa May both comes from this demographic group and is appealing to it, in a way that no-one has tried to in quite some time. That's why she is getting poll ratings which are 10% north of Cameron/Osborne.
I also suspect that there are a surprisingly large number of dyed in the wool Tory supporters and members who are not averse to economic intervention in certain circumstances. IN fact I think the number of ideological free marketeers/small state activists are pretty low even amongst those particular groups - but they are a very loud segment.
As for the social care elements of the Tory manifesto, we shall see. I rather take DavidL's view on it that it is a brave commitment in the Yes Minister sense, but better to have it in the manifesto and get a mandate for it even if the Tories do not win as many seats as they otherwise might, than to leave it out and be subject to charges of hoodwinking the electorate in a few years time.
As a Labour supporter, (but not a Corbynite), I am relatively sanguine about this election. What has been lost? An extra TWO years of Conservative rule. What has been gained? An abandonment of free markets as the only solution to any and all difficulties. Re-nationalisation introduced as a subject for discussion. Price controls on the table too. No promises of no tax rises. The deficit kicked down the road. The real prospect of Keynesian deficit financing as a govt policy. Legal marijuana openly discussed. Tories wanting to regulate Internet companies. Pensioners no longer immune from cuts. Above all, the possibility of Corbyn going. Sounds like a win for me.
Assuming he gets a decent vote share or number of seats... why would Corbyn go, having achieved all of the above?
He may not. He hasn't achieved all of the above. Some of it has been gifted him. But he is 67. Will be 72 in 2022. Would he want to? Still think there will be a majority of 100+. Labour ideas have been adopted by the Tories, and will be subjects for political discussion. You intervene on A why not B? You intervene on A why not more?
Even giving Corbyn the ability to hang on and stand aside at a time of his own choosing, to a successor of his choosing, is an abject failure.
It struck me just now, from this evening's thread, that the Conservative manifesto is essentially a future tense version of John Major's awful slogan, "Yes it hurt, yes it worked".
Yes, it's going to hurt, but yes, it's going to work...
The thing is, if you have to kick the electorate in the crotch, you don't *tell* them you're about to hit them in the crotch...
52% support renationalising the railways to 22% against. 49% support renationalising the energy industry to 24% against. 78% support the ban on foxhunting to 12% against. (ComRes, May 11)
Labour's policies and attitudes are popular - it's Corbyn that's unpopular. I genuinely believe that this manifesto, fronted by someone with better media training and without Corbyn's dubious history, would probably be in the lead right now.
Polling also shows voters want to scrap overseas aid, reduce welfare payments for those out of work, cut their own taxes, have much tougher sentences on criminals and slash immigration and of course they voted to Leave the EU, want they want is Ed Miliband economics with Enoch Powell social policies at the moment it seems and May gets that
If May gets that, then how come those policies aren't the headlines from this week?
It smacks of unforced errors and incompetence from the Conservative team. If nothing else, it no longer feels like they are in control of the narrative.
We'll see what the polls say this weekend but May has quite possibly thrown away a 150+ seat majority and enabled the hard left to survive, embed themselves within Labour, and stage a comeback in 2022. A truly terrifying prospect.
A proper conservative leader would have taken the opportunity to stomp the a hard left opposition into the ground, instead, she's shifted the party to the left while simultaneously making the Tories look even more like the 'nasty' party.
What is 'nasty' party about ensuring that the well off make some payment towards social care and lose their winter fuel allowance while protecting the assets of the poor and working class from social care claims and allowing them to keep the winter fuel allowance? As I have said the only movement this policy will affect is a bit of upper middle class Tory to LD movement in the South, Brexit backing working and lower middle class voters who have moved to May in the North and Midlands will still firmly be in the Tory column
52% support renationalising the railways to 22% against. 49% support renationalising the energy industry to 24% against. 78% support the ban on foxhunting to 12% against. (ComRes, May 11)
Labour's policies and attitudes are popular - it's Corbyn that's unpopular. I genuinely believe that this manifesto, fronted by someone with better media training and without Corbyn's dubious history, would probably be in the lead right now.
The Ipsos Issues Index would give those three topics respective ratings of 0%, 0% and 0% in terms of expressions of public concern.
The public don't care.
Questionable. it's about the bigger picture, not individual policies. The public probably don't vote specifically based on individual issues like fox hunting or railway nationalisation per se, it's more the feeling that voting for each party gives you.
Labour gives you a warm fuzzy feeling about doing good, about redressing imbalances in society, about voting for a raft of policies you are probably in favour of.
The Tory manifesto is about stealing pensioners' homes and killing cuddly foxes. Labour have presented a positive vision of the country going forward, the Conservatives have offered us nothing more than more dull grey austerity mixed with parochialism / nanny-statism.
I stand by my belief that Labour would be serious contenders right now against a May-led Conservative party if they had a more telegenic and less controversial leader.
If Labour had a better leader then we probably wouldn't be having an election.
Labour have not offered a positive vision 'going forward; - they've offered an outdated, discredited pile of policies that have lost every election for forty years.
Do not mistake Labour eating into the Green, Plaid and the Red Liberal vote for progress. Blue Labour are emptying out the other door just as swiftly and the centrists are clearly conflicted in knowing what to do.
100 seat majorities are out of the question now in my view.
Tories might get a 40 or 50 seat majority...
She will still gain about 45 to 50 Labour seats, mainly in the North, the Midlands and Wales, add in 5-10 from the SNP and she has a majority of over 100 even if she loses a handful of seats in London and the South to the LDs
The problem is that I don't think she will make those gains now. She's moved the argument on from being Mrs Brexit for them to a typical Tory who wants to smash the poor northern old people.
With respect that is just so over the top. How does taking WFA away from wealthy pensioners and increasing their capital ptotection to £100,000 smash the poor northern old people, they still keep WFA
As I said above it's not about the specific policy which 99% of people won't read, it's.the perception that the government are keeping it in Scotland and not in the North.
Exactly.
The Conservatives need to point out that if Scotland wants WFA then they will have to raise extra taxes to pay for it.
It's being kept north of the border so that they can nab those seats that Ruth has been targeting. Pure and simple.
But lose more in England and Wales in return.
And what further bribes are tossed to Scotland at the next election and then the next ?
Not exactly a United Kingdom is it.
Most of the former Labour and UKIP voters in the North and Wales May is targeting will keep the winter fuel payment, it is only the wealthiest pensioners who will lose out
The principle of giving preferential treatment to Scotland over England (and Wales) is going to damage the Conservative image among more than just rich pensioners.
No it
It already has - read the comments below.
And as I said this has the power to aggravate far beyond those people concerned.
Why are you pretending that people aren't going to be annoyed if they think the government is giving preferential treatment to others ?
Because virtually nobody in the North and Midlands will lose a penny from the winter fuel allowances, now some southern Tories like you might as a result of the means test but you are hardly going to vote for Corbyn anyway are you and I doubt for Farron either?
You lot are very wobbly. No offence but I don't you want you in my trench with me. The sound of a single shell and you'd surrender.
Most PB Leavers don't like to say they were motivated by immigration concerns, that shows how unrepresentative it is.
The kind of people who voted for Blair and Cameron aren't going to vote for Corbyn over May
Again, that's not the problem, it's Northern Lab -> UKIP -> Tory voters that will be rushing back to Labour. This is literally the Tories "showing their true colours" for many.
And threaten Brexit -
Pretty much the whole Labour manifesto is predicated on Brexit. Corbyn as PM would still deliver Brexit.
You really are irrational. With 26% corporation tax, anti business, and the march ot the unions we wouln't have a prayer
I assure you I'm quite rational, the key group this election are Labour -> UKIP -> Con voters. That group probably doesn't view Labour's manifesto as entirely negative as you or I would given that we are Tory members. Now Mrs Brexit has turned into a typical Tory who hates the North, where does that leave them? We need them to turn out in huge numbers in the North to get a big majority.
If Theresa can shift the argument back to Brexit then she's still got a chance, but a manifesto which values any northerner less than someone else is not helpful. At all.
Rubbish, the average Labour to UKIP to Tory voter will be lucky to have a house worth £150k let alone £500k and will keep most of that even if they need care, they will be on an average or slightly below average UK wage so will not lose winter fuel payments and they will love May's commitment to get immigration below 100 000 a year and her backing for Brexit
Will they love being told that they're less important than Scots and less entitled to WFA ?
Because that's the imagery May has allowed to happen.
Rubbish, Davidson's comments do not even make the main headlines outside of Scotland, the main people who are annoyed at May are wealthy southerners and Londoners, Northerners and those in the Midlands and Wales will be barely affected at all
Take a look at the Telegraph.
And stop denying reality.
This will cost the Conservatives seats and that's a fact.
Now you might think this will gain SCON a few extra MPs and be worth the lost seats in England and Wales - but that's a different issue.
There's a whole lot of extra pressure on Davidson to deliver now.
You lot are very wobbly. No offence but I don't you want you in my trench with me. The sound of a single shell and you'd surrender.
Most PB Leavers don't like to say they were motivated by immigration concerns, that shows how unrepresentative it is.
The kind of people who voted for Blair and Cameron aren't going to vote for Corbyn over May
Again, that's not the problem, it's Northern Lab -> UKIP -> Tory voters that will be rushing back to Labour. This is literally the Tories "showing their true colours" for many.
And threaten Brexit -
Pretty much the whole Labour manifesto is predicated on Brexit. Corbyn as PM would still deliver Brexit.
You really are irrational. With 26% corporation tax, anti business, and the march ot the unions we wouln't have a prayer
I assure you I'm quite rational, the key group this election are Labour -> UKIP -> Con voters. That group
If Theresa can shift the argument back to Brexit then she's still got a chance, but a manifesto which values any northerner less than someone else is not helpful. At all.
Rubbish, the average Labour to UKIP to Tory voter will be lucky to have a house worth £150k let alone £500k and will keep100 000 a year and her backing for Brexit
Will they love being told that they're less important than Scots and less entitled to WFA ?
Because that's the imagery May has allowed to happen.
Rubbish, Davidson's comments do not even make the main headlines outside of Scotland, the main people who are annoyed at May are wealthy southerners and Londoners, Northerners and those in the Midlands and Wales will be barely affected at all
Take a look at the Telegraph.
And stop denying reality.
This will cost the Conservatives seats and that's a fact.
Now you might think this will gain SCON a few extra MPs and be worth the lost seats in England and Wales - but that's a different issue.
There's a whole lot of extra pressure on Davidson to deliver now.
I predict this will cost the Tories ZERO seats anywhere north of Watford, they will still gain substantial seats in the North, the Midlands and Wales from Labour and maybe even more in Scotland from the SNP. The Tories may lose a few seats in the South to the LDs but the South is so blue anyway it will barely make a difference, the Tories were never going to make many gains in London
52% support renationalising the railways to 22% against. 49% support renationalising the energy industry to 24% against. 78% support the ban on foxhunting to 12% against. (ComRes, May 11)
Labour's policies and attitudes are popular - it's Corbyn that's unpopular. I genuinely believe that this manifesto, fronted by someone with better media training and without Corbyn's dubious history, would probably be in the lead right now.
Polling also shows voters want to scrap overseas aid, reduce welfare payments for those out of work, cut their own taxes, have much tougher sentences on criminals and slash immigration and of course they voted to Leave the EU, want they want is Ed Miliband economics with Enoch Powell social policies at the moment it seems and May gets that
If May gets that, then how come those policies aren't the headlines from this week?
It smacks of unforced errors and incompetence from the Conservative team. If nothing else, it no longer feels like they are in control of the narrative.
We'll see what the polls say this weekend but May has quite possibly thrown away a 150+ seat majority and enabled the hard left to survive, embed themselves within Labour, and stage a comeback in 2022. A truly terrifying prospect.
A proper conservative leader would have taken the opportunity to stomp the a hard left opposition into the ground, instead, she's shifted the party to the left while simultaneously making the Tories look even more like the 'nasty' party.
What is 'nasty' party about ensuring that the well off make some payment towards social care and lose their winter fuel allowance while protecting the assets of the poor and working class from social care claims and allowing them to keep the winter fuel allowance? As I have said the only movement this policy will affect is a bit of upper middle class Tory to LD movement in the South, Brexit backing working and lower middle class voters who have moved to May in the North and Midlands will still firmly be in the Tory column
Why put it in the manifesto?
I'm a foaming-at-the-mouth right-winger, yet I can name half a dozen Labour policies I like or at least don't hate. I struggle to think of a single Conservative policy that excites me or makes me think the Conservatives have a vision for the future beyond the thin gruel of austerity and a nation in perpetual managed decline.
There was the opportunity for the Conservatives to set out a positive, outward looking and optimistic vision of the UK post-Brexit. They have failed to do so.
As I said above it's not about the specific policy which 99% of people won't read, it's.the perception that the government are keeping it in Scotland and not in the North.
Exactly.
The Conservatives need to point out that if Scotland wants WFA then they will have to raise extra taxes to pay for it.
It's being kept north of the border so that they can nab those seats that Ruth has been targeting. Pure and simple.
But lose more in England and Wales in return.
And what further bribes are tossed to Scotland at the next election and then the next ?
Not exactly a United Kingdom is it.
Most of the former Labour and UKIP voters in the North and Wales May is targeting will keep the winter fuel payment, it is only the wealthiest pensioners who will lose out
The principle of giving preferential treatment to Scotland over England (and Wales) is going to damage the Conservative image among more than just rich pensioners.
No it
It already has - read the comments below.
And as I said this has the power to aggravate far beyond those people concerned.
Why are you pretending that people aren't going to be annoyed if they think the government is giving preferential treatment to others ?
Because virtually nobody in the North and Midlands will lose a penny from the winter fuel allowances, now some southern Tories like you might as a result of the means test but you are hardly going to vote for Corbyn anyway are you and I doubt for Farron either?
You keep bleating this and its bollox.
Firstly I'm not a southerner, secondly I'm not a Tory and thirdly I don't get WFA but being in the actual North (unlike you) I might well be reading the situation better.
You have no idea who might or might not lose their WFA, nor more importantly do the people who receive it.
And you keep ignoring the imagery of May agreeing to give preferential treatment to Scotland - something which will annoy far beyond those who get WFA.
My overriding feeling from speaking to pensioners about financial matters over the years is that they are far more grounded and realistic about money (and wasting it) than any other generation.
Saw some comments down thread about this manifesto not appealing to anyone (and specifically referencing 'small state voters'), so I thought I would chip in with my tuppence.
There is a very large group of people in this country who lean to the right on 'social' issues (like immigration, law and order, the EU etc) but are rather more centrist or even leftwards leaning on public services and economic issues. These are the sorts of people who were not keen on, for example, privatisation of the Royal Mail, and don't have any ideological objections to government intervention in industry. Most come from the skilled working and lower middle classes. Tony Blair to a certain extent tried to appeal to this group, but Cameron and Osborne never really got its measure. It's also underrepresented in the broadsheet press (although the Sun and Daily Mail/Express get their biggest sales figures in this demographic). Theresa May both comes from this demographic group and is appealing to it, in a way that no-one has tried to in quite some time. That's why she is getting poll ratings which are 10% north of Cameron/Osborne.
I also suspect that there are a surprisingly large number of dyed in the wool Tory supporters and members who are not averse to economic intervention in certain circumstances. IN fact I think the number of ideological free marketeers/small state activists are pretty low even amongst those particular groups - but they are a very loud segment.
As for the social care elements of the Tory manifesto, we shall see. I rather take DavidL's view on it that it is a brave commitment in the Yes Minister sense, but better to have it in the manifesto and get a mandate for it even if the Tories do not win as many seats as they otherwise might, than to leave it out and be subject to charges of hoodwinking the electorate in a few years time.
Very well said, Dougie!
You need to post more!
Seconded. There are a great many of us (sometimes in my case) Tory voters out there in that category. Red blooded Thatcherism is a minority sport and there is a natural majority for the above. The betting relevance is that this site is full of the politically committed, and over-represented with small state liberals. That's not what voters are like.
As a Labour supporter, (but not a Corbynite), I am relatively sanguine about this election. What has been lost? An extra TWO years of Conservative rule. What has been gained? An abandonment of free markets as the only solution to any and all difficulties. Re-nationalisation introduced as a subject for discussion. Price controls on the table too. No promises of no tax rises. The deficit kicked down the road. The real prospect of Keynesian deficit financing as a govt policy. Legal marijuana openly discussed. Tories wanting to regulate Internet companies. Pensioners no longer immune from cuts. Above all, the possibility of Corbyn going. Sounds like a win for me.
Assuming he gets a decent vote share or number of seats... why would Corbyn go, having achieved all of the above?
Because he lacked the nous to block the election. Every Labour seat lost can be pinned on him!
52% support renationalising the railways to 22% against. 49% support renationalising the energy industry to 24% against. 78% support the ban on foxhunting to 12% against. (ComRes, May 11)
Labour's policies and attitudes are popular - it's Corbyn that's unpopular. I genuinely believe that this manifesto, fronted by someone with better media training and without Corbyn's dubious history, would probably be in the lead right now.
Polling also shows voters want to scrap overseas aid, reduce welfare payments for those out of work, cut their own taxes, have much tougher sentences on criminals and slash immigration and of course they voted to Leave the EU, want they want is Ed Miliband economics with Enoch Powell social policies at the moment it seems and May gets that
If May gets that, then how come those policies aren't the headlines from this week?
It smacks of unforced errors and incompetence from the Conservative team. If nothing else, it no longer feels like they are in control of the narrative.
We'll see what the polls say this weekend but May has quite possibly thrown away a 150+ seat majority and enabled the hard left to survive, embed themselves within Labour, and stage a comeback in 2022. A truly terrifying prospect.
A proper conservative leader would have taken the opportunity to stomp the a hard left opposition into the ground, instead, she's shifted the party to the left while simultaneously making the Tories look even more like the 'nasty' party.
What is 'nasty' party about ensuring that
Why put it in the manifesto?
I'm a foaming-at-the-mouth right-winger, yet I can name half a dozen Labour policies I like or at least don't hate. I struggle to think of a single Conservative policy that excites me or makes me think the Conservatives have a vision for the future beyond the thin gruel of austerity and a nation in perpetual managed decline.
There was the opportunity for the Conservatives to set out a positive, outward looking and optimistic vision of the UK post-Brexit. They have failed to do so.
Leave and Brexit got over the 50% majority line largely because of socially conservative working and lower middle class pensioners in the North and Midlands who are rightwing on social issues, more leftwing on economic issues, not wealthy middle aged men in London and the South who wanted to turn the UK into Singapore. It was obvious Brexit would turn us socially more conservative and tougher on immigration but economically more statist, in the short term at least, as those values were the values of the voters who carried the day, in economic terms at least May has moved a little left of Cameron, in social terms to his right
As I said above it's not about the specific policy which 99% of people won't read, it's.the perception that the government are keeping it in Scotland and not in the North.
Exactly.
The Conservatives need to point out that if Scotland wants WFA then they will have to raise extra taxes to pay for it.
It's being kept north of the border so that they can nab those seats that Ruth has been targeting. Pure and simple.
But lose more in England and Wales in return.
And what further bribes are tossed to Scotland at the next election and then the next ?
Not exactly a United Kingdom is it.
Most of the former Labour and UKIP voters in the North and Wales May is targeting will keep the winter fuel payment, it is only the wealthiest pensioners who will lose out
The principle of giving preferential treatment to Scotland over England (and Wales) is going to damage the Conservative image among more than just rich pensioners.
No it
It already has - read the comments below.
And as I said this has the power to aggravate far beyond those people concerned.
Why are you pretending that people aren't going to be annoyed if they think the government is giving preferential treatment to others ?
Because virtually nobody in the North and Midlands will lose a penny from the winter fuel allowances, now some southern Tories like you might as a result of the means test but you are hardly going to vote for Corbyn anyway are you and I doubt for Farron either?
You keep bleating this and its bollox.
Firstly I'm not a southerner, secondly I'm not a Tory and thirdly I don't get WFA but being in the actual North (unlike you) I might well be reading the situation better.
You have no idea who might or might not lose their WFA, nor more importantly do the people who receive it.
And you keep ignoring the imagery of May agreeing to give preferential treatment to Scotland - something which will annoy far beyond those who get WFA.
You are I assume not lower middle class or working class ie the former UKIP voters May needs and those people will thus not be affected at all by means testing winter fuel allowance so why on earth should they care what happens in Scotland as the policy will not affect them anyway? Just because Davidson said she will vote in Holyrood to keep full fuel allowance in Scotland will not matter to English voters a jot
Pretty much the whole Labour manifesto is predicated on Brexit. Corbyn as PM would still deliver Brexit.
You really are irrational. With 26% corporation tax, anti business, and the march ot the unions we wouln't have a prayer
I assure you I'm quite rational, the key group this election are Labour -> UKIP -> Con voters. That group
If Theresa can shift the argument back to Brexit then she's still got a chance, but a manifesto which values any northerner less than someone else is not helpful. At all.
Rubbish, the average Labour to UKIP to Tory voter will be lucky to have a house worth £150k let alone £500k and will keep100 000 a year and her backing for Brexit
Will they love being told that they're less important than Scots and less entitled to WFA ?
Because that's the imagery May has allowed to happen.
Rubbish, Davidson's comments do not even make the main headlines outside of Scotland, the main people who are annoyed at May are wealthy southerners and Londoners, Northerners and those in the Midlands and Wales will be barely affected at all
Take a look at the Telegraph.
And stop denying reality.
This will cost the Conservatives seats and that's a fact.
Now you might think this will gain SCON a few extra MPs and be worth the lost seats in England and Wales - but that's a different issue.
There's a whole lot of extra pressure on Davidson to deliver now.
I predict this will cost the Tories ZERO seats anywhere north of Watford, they will still gain substantial seats in the North, the Midlands and Wales from Labour and maybe even more in Scotland from the SNP. The Tories may lose a few seats in the South to the LDs but the South is so blue anyway it will barely make a difference, the Tories were never going to make many gains in London
If treating English and Welsh people as second class citizens on this issue doesn't cost the Conservatives votes (and consequently stops them winning seats they would otherwise have done) why do you think not means testing WFA in Scotland will help SCON gain seats there ?
By your definition nobody who was thinking of voting SCON will be affected by means testing WFA so it should be pointless to have different policies.
Perhaps you need to check with CCHQ on this one.
Now how many extra SCON MPs are worth having less in England and Wales in your opinion ?
My overriding feeling from speaking to pensioners about financial matters over the years is that they are far more grounded and realistic about money (and wasting it) than any other generation.
If you could have explained that to Ruth Davidson then a lot of bad PR for the Conservatives would have been avoided.
As a Labour supporter, (but not a Corbynite), I am relatively sanguine about this election. What has been lost? An extra TWO years of Conservative rule. What has been gained? An abandonment of free markets as the only solution to any and all difficulties. Re-nationalisation introduced as a subject for discussion. Price controls on the table too. No promises of no tax rises. The deficit kicked down the road. The real prospect of Keynesian deficit financing as a govt policy. Legal marijuana openly discussed. Tories wanting to regulate Internet companies. Pensioners no longer immune from cuts. Above all, the possibility of Corbyn going. Sounds like a win for me.
Assuming he gets a decent vote share or number of seats... why would Corbyn go, having achieved all of the above?
He may not. He hasn't achieved all of the above. Some of it has been gifted him. But he is 67. Will be 72 in 2022. Would he want to? Still think there will be a majority of 100+. Labour ideas have been adopted by the Tories, and will be subjects for political discussion. You intervene on A why not B? You intervene on A why not more?
Even giving Corbyn the ability to hang on and stand aside at a time of his own choosing, to a successor of his choosing, is an abject failure.
It struck me just now, from this evening's thread, that the Conservative manifesto is essentially a future tense version of John Major's awful slogan, "Yes it hurt, yes it worked".
Yes, it's going to hurt, but yes, it's going to work...
The thing is, if you have to kick the electorate in the crotch, you don't *tell* them you're about to hit them in the crotch...
Nevertheless, the Overton Window has moved this campaign. And it has moved leftwards. For an extra 2 years of government. Result for labour whatever the majority.
My overriding feeling from speaking to pensioners about financial matters over the years is that they are far more grounded and realistic about money (and wasting it) than any other generation.
And what further bribes are tossed to Scotland at the next election and then the next ?
Not exactly a United Kingdom is it.
Most of the former Labour and UKIP voters in the North and Wales May is targeting will keep the winter fuel payment, it is only the wealthiest pensioners who will lose out
The principle of giving preferential treatment to Scotland over England (and Wales) is going to damage the Conservative image among more than just rich pensioners.
No it
It already has - read the comments below.
And as I said this has the power to aggravate far beyond those people concerned.
Why are you pretending that people aren't going to be annoyed if they think the government is giving preferential treatment to others ?
Because virtually nobody in the North and Midlands will lose a penny from the winter fuel allowances, now some southern Tories like you might as a result of the means test but you are hardly going to vote for Corbyn anyway are you and I doubt for Farron either?
You keep bleating this and its bollox.
Firstly I'm not a southerner, secondly I'm not a Tory and thirdly I don't get WFA but being in the actual North (unlike you) I might well be reading the situation better.
You have no idea who might or might not lose their WFA, nor more importantly do the people who receive it.
And you keep ignoring the imagery of May agreeing to give preferential treatment to Scotland - something which will annoy far beyond those who get WFA.
You are I assume not lower middle class or working class ie the former UKIP voters May needs and those people will thus not be affected at all by means testing winter fuel allowance so why on earth should they care what happens in Scotland as the policy will not affect them anyway?
In which case why does not means testing WFA in Scotland attract those same voters if it wont apply to them.
And you still keep ignoring the imagery of May agreeing to give preferential treatment to Scotland - something which will annoy fay beyond those who get WFA.
And what further bribes are tossed to Scotland at the next election and then the next ?
Not exactly a United Kingdom is it.
Most of the former Labour and UKIP voters in the North and Wales May is targeting will keep the winter fuel payment, it is only the wealthiest pensioners who will lose out
The principle of giving preferential treatment to Scotland over England (and Wales) is going to damage the Conservative image among more than just rich pensioners.
No it
It already has - read the comments below.
And as I said this has the power to aggravate far beyond those people concerned.
Why are you pretending that people aren't going to be annoyed if they think the government is giving preferential treatment to others ?
Because virtually nobody in the North and Midlands will lose a penny from the winter fuel allowances, now some southern Tories like you might as a result of the means test but you are hardly going to vote for Corbyn anyway are you and I doubt for Farron either?
You keep bleating this and its bollox.
Firstly I'm not a southerner, secondly I'm not a Tory and thirdly I don't get WFA but being in the actual North (unlike you) I might well be reading the situation better.
You have no idea who might or might not lose their WFA, nor more importantly do the people who receive it.
And you keep ignoring the imagery of May agreeing to give preferential treatment to Scotland - something which will annoy far beyond those who get WFA.
You are I assume not lower middle class or working class ie the former UKIP voters May needs and those people will thus not be affected at all by means testing winter fuel allowance so why on earth should they care what happens in Scotland as the policy will not affect them anyway?
In which case why does not means testing WFA in Scotland attract those same voters if it wont apply to them.
And you still keep ignoring the imagery of May agreeing to give preferential treatment to Scotland - something which will annoy fay beyond those who get WFA.
As in Scotland the Tories need to win upper middle class voters who in 2015 voted SNP after voting No in 2014, in England upper middle class voters largely vote Tory anyway. The Scottish decision also had nothing to do with May, it is a devolved decision up there and all Davidson said was she would vote to keep it in full in the vote at Holyrood
Pretty much the whole Labour manifesto is predicated on Brexit. Corbyn as PM would still deliver Brexit.
You really are irrational. With 26% corporation tax, anti business, and the march ot the unions we wouln't have a prayer
I assure you I'm quite rational, the key group this election are Labour -> UKIP -> Con voters. That group
If Theresa can shift the argument back to Brexit then she's still got a chance, but a manifesto which values any northerner less than someone else is not helpful. At all.
Rubbish, the average Labour to UKIP to Tory voter will be lucky to have a house worth £150k let alone £500k and will keep100 000 a year and her backing for Brexit
Will they love being told that they're less important than Scots and less entitled to WFA ?
Because that's the imagery May has allowed to happen.
Rubbish, Davidson's comments do not even make the main headlines outside of Scotland, the main people who are annoyed at May are wealthy southerners and Londoners, Northerners and those in the Midlands and Wales will be barely affected at all
Take a look at the Telegraph.
And stop denying reality.
This will cost the Conservatives seats and that's a fact.
Now you might think this will gain SCON a few extra MPs and be worth the lost seats in England and Wales - but that's a different issue.
There's a whole lot of extra pressure on Davidson to deliver now.
I predict this will cost the Tories ZERO seats anywhere north of Watford, they will still gain
If treating English and Welsh people as second class citizens on this issue doesn't cost the Conservatives votes (and consequently stops them winning seats they would otherwise have done) why do you think not means testing WFA in Scotland will help SCON gain seats there ?
By your definition nobody who was thinking of voting SCON will be affected by means testing WFA so it should be pointless to have different policies.
Perhaps you need to check with CCHQ on this one.
Now how many extra SCON MPs are worth having less in England and Wales in your opinion ?
As I said Davidson really has to deliver now.
No, as I said the Tories need to win over upper middle class pensioner voters in Scotland as the SNP won the upper middle class in 2015 and they will be affected by losing WFA, in 2015 in England and Wales by contrast the upper middle class voted Tory
Seconded. There are a great many of us (sometimes in my case) Tory voters out there in that category. Red blooded Thatcherism is a minority sport and there is a natural majority for the above. The betting relevance is that this site is full of the politically committed, and over-represented with small state liberals. That's not what voters are like.
Thanks both, and I would place myself in that general category as well. I agree that there is a lot of panicking amongst more right wing posters here today which is, I think, unnecessary. The Tories are still very likely to win a large majority.
That said, I am not sure that the Scottish Conservatives' promise to retain the universal winter fuel allowance was necessary, not least because it looks defensive and because most people in Scotland will probably assume that its withdrawal will apply north of the border anyway. In any case I am sceptical that it will greatly influence voters north or south of the border, but will reserve judgement until next week's polls.
Comments
The kind of people who voted for Blair and Cameron aren't going to vote for Corbyn over May
As for further bribes yes I expect there will be, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
But the fact is leaving aside personal leadership ratings, Labour's policies are popular with the electorate, the Conservatives are not.
Labour are promising to shake the magic money tree and eliminate tuition fees and privatise the railways and tax the rich bastards who are making more money than you.
The Tories are promising to steal the homes of dementia sufferers, murder cuddly foxes, snoop on your whatsapp and devalue your pension.
To SeanT's point, even if these are necessary compromises, why the heck put them in a manifesto and make an election platform out of them?
Win a decent majority first and then expend that capital making the difficult decisions. To do otherwise - as the Conservatives appear to be doing - looks like madness or at least incompetence.
A majority of 50-60 against a joke like Corbyn is an abject failure. It paves thje way for a hard left Labour to take power in 2022 on a similar platform but with a more popular leader.
But the SNP are still going to have a large majority of Scottish MPs in a month.
Toxic.
Wow some really interesting declerations early on, this is really going to be a fascinating night/early morning:
Darlington- how big is the swing to the tories in the northern marginals
Wrexham- are the tories really going to be the largest party in Wales
Angus-How loud is the Tory surge KLAXON
Camerthen east & Dinefwr- If tories take this they are heading for a truly stunning night
North Norfolk-time for the LibDems to pack up as a party?
Islington North- Change the channel for a bit
And to be fair I want my PM to be honest, even if it is unpopular, but is in the Country's interest
49% support renationalising the energy industry to 24% against.
78% support the ban on foxhunting to 12% against.
(ComRes, May 11)
Labour's policies and attitudes are popular - it's Corbyn that's unpopular. I genuinely believe that this manifesto, fronted by someone with better media training and without Corbyn's dubious history, would probably be in the lead right now.
The first promise she broke.
Its the level at which you set the test that counts.
You can bet there will be a LOT of old widows, on low incomes, all over England and Wales fearful that they are about to have their WFA taken away from them while Scottish widows keep there's...
As @Casino_Royale said the other day, if May can't deliver a 100+ majority then all she will have succeeded in doing is shifting the centre ground significantly to the left. As I said it is easier to fight Labour on Oliver Letwin's battlefield than it will be on Ed Miliband's. The last time Labour won was when they came onto Oliver's lawn and parked their tanks all over it. Now they just need to get a credible leader to do it in Ed's backyard.
So those Conservative candidates who lose by 100 votes will know that their defeat was caused by May's pandering to Davidson's big talking.
I suppose if SCON now does gain Moray, Banff, Gordon, Perth and half a dozen others they could argue it was justified.
If.
Should I vote Jezza?
It looks like Winter Fuel Payments may become a matter for devolved administrations, leaving Sturgeon to pick up the bill with her tax varying powers if she chooses.
The Tory differentiation here could pincer the SNP. Davidson is promising something she won't have to follow through on while May can just shift the onus onto the SNP.
If Theresa can shift the argument back to Brexit then she's still got a chance, but a manifesto which values any northerner less than someone else is not helpful. At all.
The trouble is the Labour Manifesto has plenty of individual policies that are overwhelmingly popular with the electorate.
The Conservative policy does not.
Aside from the fact that dementia tax and so on make wavering Lab voters and Lab > Ukip > Con voters think the Tories are the 'nasty' party again and return home, the problem is Theresa May simply hasn't given anyone a positive reason to vote for her yet.
Being 'I'm not Corbyn' is probably good enough to get her over the line, but only just.
The public don't care.
If Labour was led by a centrist, perhaps this is the debate that Britain would be having. Instead, the contest is between an inept radical and a highly competent prime minister who speaks to the mainstream of British opinion. It is a choice not just between the past and the future, but a past in which men such as Mr Corbyn made dreadful, unethical choices that the voters must reject all over again. It is time for the country to move on.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2017/05/19/may-vs-corbyn-mainstream-vs-extreme/amp/
What they're going to hear is that WFA is being stopped in England but continuing in Scotland.
The imagery of this is not good for the Conservatives - people don't feel good when they feel discriminated against. And 'strong and stable' isn't the image of those who give preferential treatment to demanding crybabys.
How on earth has this come to pass?
Contriving to lose an election they looked set to win by a landslide?
I'm incensed by this fuckwittery. As a lifelong Tory voter, can I actually trust this lot (eg on negotiating Brexit or managing the economy) when they do get back in? I might not bother voting this time. Serve them right if they lose and unleash Corbyn on the nation.
Which country sells the best quality used rifles?
Answer....France.
Why....because they have never been fired and have only been dropped once.
[Silly playfull mode OFF]
Seriously though, France is great with long military tradition.
Labour gives you a warm fuzzy feeling about doing good, about redressing imbalances in society, about voting for a raft of policies you are probably in favour of.
The Tory manifesto is about stealing pensioners' homes and killing cuddly foxes. Labour have presented a positive vision of the country going forward, the Conservatives have offered us nothing more than more dull grey austerity mixed with parochialism / nanny-statism.
I stand by my belief that Labour would be serious contenders right now against a May-led Conservative party if they had a more telegenic and less controversial leader.
Because that's the imagery May has allowed to happen.
It smacks of unforced errors and incompetence from the Conservative team. If nothing else, it no longer feels like they are in control of the narrative.
We'll see what the polls say this weekend but May has quite possibly thrown away a 150+ seat majority and enabled the hard left to survive, embed themselves within Labour, and stage a comeback in 2022. A truly terrifying prospect.
A proper conservative leader would have taken the opportunity to stomp the a hard left opposition into the ground, instead, she's shifted the party to the left while simultaneously making the Tories look even more like the 'nasty' party.
There is a very large group of people in this country who lean to the right on 'social' issues (like immigration, law and order, the EU etc) but are rather more centrist or even leftwards leaning on public services and economic issues. These are the sorts of people who were not keen on, for example, privatisation of the Royal Mail, and don't have any ideological objections to government intervention in industry. Most come from the skilled working and lower middle classes. Tony Blair to a certain extent tried to appeal to this group, but Cameron and Osborne never really got its measure. It's also underrepresented in the broadsheet press (although the Sun and Daily Mail/Express get their biggest sales figures in this demographic). Theresa May both comes from this demographic group and is appealing to it, in a way that no-one has tried to in quite some time. That's why she is getting poll ratings which are 10% north of Cameron/Osborne.
I also suspect that there are a surprisingly large number of dyed in the wool Tory supporters and members who are not averse to economic intervention in certain circumstances. IN fact I think the number of ideological free marketeers/small state activists are pretty low even amongst those particular groups - but they are a very loud segment.
As for the social care elements of the Tory manifesto, we shall see. I rather take DavidL's view on it that it is a brave commitment in the Yes Minister sense, but better to have it in the manifesto and get a mandate for it even if the Tories do not win as many seats as they otherwise might, than to leave it out and be subject to charges of hoodwinking the electorate in a few years time.
And as I said this has the power to aggravate far beyond those people concerned.
Why are you pretending that people aren't going to be annoyed if they think the government is giving preferential treatment to others ?
You need to post more!
It struck me just now, from this evening's thread, that the Conservative manifesto is essentially a future tense version of John Major's awful slogan, "Yes it hurt, yes it worked".
Yes, it's going to hurt, but yes, it's going to work...
The thing is, if you have to kick the electorate in the crotch, you don't *tell* them you're about to hit them in the crotch...
Labour have not offered a positive vision 'going forward; - they've offered an outdated, discredited pile of policies that have lost every election for forty years.
Do not mistake Labour eating into the Green, Plaid and the Red Liberal vote for progress. Blue Labour are emptying out the other door just as swiftly and the centrists are clearly conflicted in knowing what to do.
And stop denying reality.
This will cost the Conservatives seats and that's a fact.
Now you might think this will gain SCON a few extra MPs and be worth the lost seats in England and Wales - but that's a different issue.
There's a whole lot of extra pressure on Davidson to deliver now.
I'm a foaming-at-the-mouth right-winger, yet I can name half a dozen Labour policies I like or at least don't hate. I struggle to think of a single Conservative policy that excites me or makes me think the Conservatives have a vision for the future beyond the thin gruel of austerity and a nation in perpetual managed decline.
There was the opportunity for the Conservatives to set out a positive, outward looking and optimistic vision of the UK post-Brexit. They have failed to do so.
Firstly I'm not a southerner, secondly I'm not a Tory and thirdly I don't get WFA but being in the actual North (unlike you) I might well be reading the situation better.
You have no idea who might or might not lose their WFA, nor more importantly do the people who receive it.
And you keep ignoring the imagery of May agreeing to give preferential treatment to Scotland - something which will annoy far beyond those who get WFA.
By your definition nobody who was thinking of voting SCON will be affected by means testing WFA so it should be pointless to have different policies.
Perhaps you need to check with CCHQ on this one.
Now how many extra SCON MPs are worth having less in England and Wales in your opinion ?
As I said Davidson really has to deliver now.
And you still keep ignoring the imagery of May agreeing to give preferential treatment to Scotland - something which will annoy fay beyond those who get WFA.
That said, I am not sure that the Scottish Conservatives' promise to retain the universal winter fuel allowance was necessary, not least because it looks defensive and because most people in Scotland will probably assume that its withdrawal will apply north of the border anyway. In any case I am sceptical that it will greatly influence voters north or south of the border, but will reserve judgement until next week's polls.